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Author Topic: Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?
Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by lioness:
compare to which Nubians? I have seen no Nubian mummies with wavy hair. Where are they?

Propensity to troll.
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the lioness,
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Piece of shyt the point is that a wig can be considered a type of headress in the sense it's not the person's actual hair, buffoon.

Why are you even wasting time putting up images of Queen Tiye that don't represent her natural hair in a thread hair?


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Wrong again, worm! How many times must we tell your lying dumbass that what the bust wears is NOT a "headress" but a WIG!! There is no such thing as a round helmet like Egyptian headdress but there are Egyptian round wigs a.k.a. 'Afros'!!....



quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You seem to denigrate and/or complain about ancient Egyptian art when it portrays the Egyptians as they were (black) by calling it "cartoonish" or something else.

You are part of which "we" ? All I have to do is step out of here and they'll soon turn on you. I'm the buffer

Idiot the below is a cartoon simplified figure and you just finished saying Queen Tiye is portrayed wearing a wig.

Of all the art that could be looked at this is the example?


 -


_______________________________________________________

Seti I
 -

 -
Seti I


Perhaps this is a wig on Seti I__________^^^^^^^

Was he a person with an afro who wore straight hair wigs?
You cant tell.

And generally didn't all kings and queens wear wigs?

Obviously not.

We've seen several mummies with hair, only some had shaved heads apparently


 -  -
Nubian prince Maiherpri, and the Lady Rai,

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

The whole hair shaving thing is not uniform across all periods or class, even during the times when it was a common practice. As for the prevalence of Afro hairstyles, by far, the most Egyptian males are depicted like this:

 -

And this^ most definitely is not a 'fro.

Then what do you call that if not an afro?

 -

 -

 -

 -

^ Such is the predominant hair type among Egyptian men...

But then we have on occasion these examples:

 -

 -

(note the man on the left in every picture)

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by lioness:
compare to which Nubians? I have seen no Nubian mummies with wavy hair. Where are they?

Propensity to troll.
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
 -
 -


wrong, propensity to raise uncomfortable questions
rather than Djefruitian strokings

you dug this up from 1907

Where is the research of the past 20 years that talks about all this alleged wavy hair in Nubia?

Important question: where are these remains currently?

Obviously if this is true people from these sites must have come from differnt places (different places within Africa according to your theories)

And odd thing is that the Egyptians often (not always) portrayed Nubians as more sub saharan in features.
The more sun sahran you are the less likely one would have wavy non-afro type hair, get real people, enough fantasy land

The data listed in this 1907-1908 excavation probably shocked a lot of people? I'm not certain how credible it is. This was the period of the hamitic race theories etc.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

 -



Are these wigs?

Or is it curly hair?

Or are they afros?

It's impossible to tell


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

 -


There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.

Are the people at right waering some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.

Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is


Look at Hesire:
 -

^^^^ It's an afro right?

Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
 -

-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

Piece of shyt the point is that a wig can be considered a type of headress in the sense it's not the person's actual hair, buffoon.

Do I sense frustration from a lyinass twit exposed for what she is? Yeah I do! [Big Grin]

quote:
Why are you even wasting time putting up images of Queen Tiye that don't represent her natural hair in a thread hair?
Actually my point wasn't about her hair so much as her face which rebuff your own sketch fantasies based on her mummified shriveled face.


quote:
You are part of which "we"? All I have to do is step out of here and they'll soon turn on you. I'm the buffer
[Eek!] LMAOH [Big Grin]

So you are suffering from psychotic delusion. Such is typical with all Euronut trolls. By the way, my only wish in this forum is for you to step out permanently so I and the others can be free of your annoying trolling.

quote:
Idiot the below is a cartoon simplified figure and you just finished saying Queen Tiye is portrayed wearing a wig.
I know. Yet it's more than your little illustration which attempts to maker her look 'caucasian'.

quote:
Of all the art that could be looked at this is the example?

http://www.historylink101.net/egypt_images/male-kilt.jpg

Swenet's example, not mine. And Swenet's example was to show the 'typical' Egyptian hairstyle for men.

quote:
Seti I
 -

 -
Seti I

Perhaps this is a wig on Seti I__________^^^^^^^

Was he a person with an afro who wore straight hair wigs?
You cant tell.

LOL @ your lightened up picture. As for "straight haired wigs". Look again, trick!

 -

 -

The corkscrew curls happen to be strikingly similar to those of this Afar man...

 -

..who also happens to have similar facial features as Seti, including nose.

More lyinass sh*t flushed down.

quote:
And generally didn't all kings and queens wear wigs?

Obviously not.

We've seen several mummies with hair, only some had shaved heads apparently
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/nubian-mummy.jpg?w=196&h=300

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/ladyrai2.jpg?w=215&h=300

Nubian prince Maiherpri, and the Lady Rai,

Uh, Maiherpri is wearing a WIG! Remember?! LMAO
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:


 -

Are these wigs?

Or is it curly hair?

Or are they afros?

It's impossible to tell

Well as Swenet, pointed out such hair is the most common type seen among Egyptian males. By the way, very curly hair can produce afros as well which proves mine (and Ausar's point) that the majority of Egyptians have very curly to kinky hair.

Are you stupid? It's very likely to tell from all your posts that YES is the answer. [Embarrassed]


quote:

 -

There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.

I was referring to the man on the left. I know the picture is small but I recognize it from larger blown up versions I've seen in books and the man appears to have loose (straight) hair.

quote:
Are the people at right wearring some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.
Yes the other men are wearing head-cloths that is actual headdresses.

quote:
Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is
Actually it does. Again, if there are larger versions of the pictures one can see it easily.

quote:
Look at Hesire:
 -

^^^^ It's an afro right?

Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
 -

-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.

That Hesira is shown wearing different hairstyles may very well indicate his head is shaved and he is merely wearing wigs. You can tell that the afro wig is made from natural hair while the second wig with the lines is actually not hair at all but plant fiber. Or perhaps in your stupid case, maybe not. [Embarrassed]
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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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Faheem Dumbass sez:
Apart from Zaharan and Swenet behind their keyboards, no one else is claiming "Blacks have straight hair". Not even the Journal of Black Studies... [Roll Eyes]

 -

Witless dolt. You fail again. And your citation (from an
article whose main "hair" reference is Mayr 1970)
fails on the fact that tropical Africa has numerous
micro-climes, from dry arid desert (like parts of
California) to snow capped mountain, to cool high
altitude cloud forest, to cool, coastal lowland.
Hair of almost any variant can evolve in Africa without
needing any of your beloved "wandering Caucasoids".
--------------------------------

RECAP:

 -


Ancient Egyptian hair

Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a
'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a
"Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly
variable, debunking their simplistic claims.


The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls
of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of
peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over
millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This
diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic
"racial" claims based on hair.


Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and
definitions of African hair



Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial
hair claims:

Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair,
and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming
Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of
Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New
Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that
'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were
ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans,
Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been
thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they
continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to
assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to
define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily
on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined
as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme
"type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".

Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that
while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true
negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to
apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white."
Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on
the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for
example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample
as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or
approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled)
hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the
Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such
consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.

QUOTE:
"Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which
had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was
interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical
African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is
grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or
Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more
than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly"
hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.."
(S. O. Y.
Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian
Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)



Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories:

Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example
of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove
assumptions of race and gender"
involving 1800s European
researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation
reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into
Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of
hair for race category or percentage claims involving the
ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several
Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for
neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.


Hair studies touted by "heriditarian" race proponents
actually applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used
late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks,
Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500
years of ancient civilization.
A study of the hair of Egyptian
mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach
(1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period
samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14
samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the
14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the
previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling
are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to
identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were
deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse
and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European,
then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed
"Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:

Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly
Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight
Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy
Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter
Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair
Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape
unascertainable - south
Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly
- south
Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight
Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine
Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape
Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly,
Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight
Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy
Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD


Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are
undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group
closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.



------------ "Nordic hair measurements"

Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher
Pruner-Bey in the 1800s (yes they actually go back this far),
which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans.
Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But
is it as they claim?

(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character')
- Negroid index: 57.40
- Egyptian index: 69.94
- White Germans: 66.33
Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer'
to Egyptians

Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman &
Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)

Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data:
- Negroid index: 57.40
- Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)

White Germans: 66.33
___________________________________________________
___________________________
Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much
‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics

___________________________________________________
__________________________________________________


Using hair for race identification as older research does can be
shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as
shown above.


Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove
assumptions of race and gender..”
Other credible scientists note:

"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that
the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish
races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories.
Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair
morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present
have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as
1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from
samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological
similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these
may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of
the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later
out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically
indistinguishable".

--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The
Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of
Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2


Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the
Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in
mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or
"white" Egyptians dubious.


Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair
studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by
environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman
(1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is
usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment.
Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused
by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies
due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other
samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable
colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not
necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired
Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being
mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.

Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy
wrappings.
Racial analysis is also made problematic by the
Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary
deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from
Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from
excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples
Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is
natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair
extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is
also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed
locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings.
(The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins,
2004, p. 93-94, 96)


Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used
wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for
wigs through trade.
Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic"
hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may
be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a
wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of
inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.


The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural
hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs
in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body
adornment

(Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p.
101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved
except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many
adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of
coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about
bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs
were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all
classes.."


The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates
and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002)
shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is
defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly
a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or
admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed
their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs
widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through
trade. Indeed -quote - "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked
alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of
Kahun."



Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a
commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been
easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb,
Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives
or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little
need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or
populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb
proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be
much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further
demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan'
or predominantly European admixed Egypt.



Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt


Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile
valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of
straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th
century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig
himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his
natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig"
also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a
stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern
Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with
both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the
famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig:
"Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing
the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries
and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall
scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the
Nubian wig.
Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe
carried into combat.


Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic
variability


Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study
at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair
Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of
Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling
patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African
samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African
elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping
and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction.
These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race
admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants
or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of
variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which
cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a
routine occurrence within human groups.

Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has
the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of
features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix:
Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating
regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest
levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic
studies." (
Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional
Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population
Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5,
October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that
[significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan
Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras,
hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in,
indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural
practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained
through trade.

Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair
and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of
East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are
different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless
they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater
variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa
has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine
variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any
racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in
genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent.
Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially
in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations
(e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some
Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type
hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can
also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as
well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red
hair.


Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and
crania.
Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race'
model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white'
Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given
built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims
attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match
ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims
are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer
program used to put forward such claims, Williams,
Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created
ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and
peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others
in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of
human populations in the databank explained such wide
ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk
obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged
Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or
equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying
such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and
George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient
Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human
Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages
340-346)

Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners
to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen.

Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in
genetic and phenotypic diversity.
As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample
was close to both the Northwest European and East African
samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African
indigenous variability, and calls into questions various
migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example
(Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to
the notion of incoming European migrants replacing
indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also
suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as
Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis
failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much
closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that
similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and
non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in
African variability.

Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and
Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The
questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian
populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis
than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations,
and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian,
Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and
Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski
(2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient
Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of
Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical
body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of
inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native
Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).


The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic
Egypt?


Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of
dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example
routinely produce blonde hair:

Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985)
identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as
being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising
given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most
genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other
population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair
shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in
children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in
dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians.
(Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a
red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the
19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state
had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such
latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks,
Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the
nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with
Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or
"Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from
earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the
Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid'
leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.

Pheomelanin and Rameses- Dark haired populations routinely
produce light hair. Pheomelanin is found in light and
dark-haired populations:
The finding of Rameses “red” hair
also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of
dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were
untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in
Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of
pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and
hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in
persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which
gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur,
which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific
tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur,
3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding
the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996)
Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well
within the range of human variation for dark haired people,
whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.

Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but
yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra
straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence
.
Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they
routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for
any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also
did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red
to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations
are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color
variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and
northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color
variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in
Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair.
As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of
such variation.

The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again
a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile
valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of
straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the
notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from
other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation,
particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely.
Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and
Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years
preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other
genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used
in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental
oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.

Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence
of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to
give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation.

Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe,
especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor
frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is
unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in
the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is
comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin
conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is
well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa
and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen
in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925)
and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number
of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which
purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red"
hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has
debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not
common world wide, is a well known variant within human
populations, even those with dark hair.

Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like
Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations.
As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA
overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans
including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans &
Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1),
Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small
European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The
data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the
East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of
Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)


 -

As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value
of "racial" hair analysis:


"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that
the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish
races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories.
Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair
morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present
have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as
1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from
samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological
similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these
may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of
the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later
out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically
indistinguishable".

--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The
Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of
Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2


In numerous studies of mummies, alleged "red" hair turns
out to be affected by aging, chemical oxidation, dyeing and
other processes having nothing to do with red-headed visitors,
migrants, slaves or invaders. Red hair is rare worldwide,
occurring mostly in Northern EUrope and even then, only
within less that 9% of northern populations


"The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish
highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and
probably originated through post-mortem alteration
(Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure,
bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the
factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair
that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or
even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human
hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological
time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis
of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and
the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair
colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been
reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified
human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney,
1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002,
2007b)."


--C. Papageorgopoulou et al. 2008. Indications of embalming
in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological
analysis. Journal of Archaeological Science

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


 -

The corkscrew curls happen to be strikingly similar to those of this Afar man...

 -

..who also happens to have similar facial features as Seti, including nose.


 -

^^^ you can see that the piece is not lit with a spotlight here and is subject to the changing sunlight conditions, You can see how the sunlight in this moment is coming from behind leaving the piece in shadow.
You are at it agiain with the shadows. You take anything be it a piece of art or human beings, find the darkest version of it on the internet and then say the darkest is the "real" version becuase you think people will approve of you more for it.
The Shadow strikes again, True Blackism

You can see the man is much darker than even your poorly lit version of Seti I. As is typical he has some reddish qualities to his brown skin. This man does not he's pure dark brown.
But the skin color doesn't matter.
You get a point for showing the corkscrew in close up.
I assume due to the mummy that's a wig, a wig with micro braids of some kind

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Then what do you call that if not an afro?

I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
you dug this up from 1907

Where is the research of the past 20 years that talks about all this alleged wavy hair in Nubia?

Important question: where are these remains currently?

You're a certified troll. The Nubian mummy quotes I posted were from two different sources (Smith et al and Morton), and the Meroitic paper that has been discussed on ES many times is from a third source. Then, to top it all off, your dumbass airhead posted a fourth one, in this very thread, not too long ago. I also posted that picture of that queen from Pwenet. Get outta my face, lyingass, super flip flopping, three second memory having, I'll say anything to get attention ass supertroll.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Then what do you call that if not an afro?

I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
 -

oh snap, Sweetnet flushed Djefruti down the toilet

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anguishofbeing
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^ all three of you are the same multiple account loser.
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Swenet
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^Where did they teach you how to discern the identity of posters, the same place where you got your (imaginary) PhD in psychology?

 -

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the lioness,
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^^^^ did that sound realistic?
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Swenet
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Super troll, why are you talking to me?
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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
^Where did they teach you how to discern the identity of posters, the same place where you got your (imaginary) PhD in psychology?


Where did they teach you to read? LOL!!!

Oh come on Mary, not because we found out you're not a geneticist. [Roll Eyes]

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Swenet
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Super trolls are on ignore.
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HabariTess
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Then what do you call that if not an afro?

I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro. The only difference is that Hesire is drawn with a visible ear, which means his hair is obviously growing up and not down and which it would have covered the ears. The pictures of average Egyptians are drawn without ears because the attention to detail for them was less needed.

Notice the guy on the right that Djehuti just posted with the very obvious afro next to the guy with the obvious wig. No ears.

[IMG]  - [/IMG]


I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.

quote:
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.

The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table!


http://wysinger.homestead.com/hair2.html
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

 -

^^^ you can see that the piece is not lit with a spotlight here and is subject to the changing sunlight conditions, You can see how the sunlight in this moment is coming from behind leaving the piece in shadow.
You are at it again with the shadows. You take anything be it a piece of art or human beings, find the darkest version of it on the internet and then say the darkest is the "real" version becuase you think people will approve of you more for it.
The Shadow strikes again, True Blackism

You can see the man is much darker than even your poorly lit version of Seti I. As is typical he has some reddish qualities to his brown skin. This man does not he's pure dark brown.
But the skin color doesn't matter.
You get a point for showing the corkscrew in close up.
I assume due to the mummy that's a wig, a wig with micro braids of some kind

LMAOH @ this dumb lying b|tch talking about "shadows" and poor lighting! I just posted a picture with decent lighting to show that Seti is not as reddish or even light reddish from your distorted version!

 -

^ One with decent functioning eyes can see the traces of dark brown paint around his face and arms.

Even the picture YOU posted above shows dark brown color around the legs, feet, and arms of his wife!

 -

You tried to pull off the same lyinass trick with Seti's grandson Ramses II

 -
 -

By the way, here is another picture of Seti I

 -

GTFOH and back into the shadows of your brothel where you belong! [Embarrassed]

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Son of Ra
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Wait...So both Modern/Ancient Egyptians don't really have straight hair?
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.

You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked?? [Confused]

 -

 -

 -

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked?? [Confused]

Yep. You can create the exact same hairstyle with braids.

 -  -

Its basically just a variation of that^, so that you get this:

 -

Its not an afro

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.

You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked?? [Confused]

 -

 -

 -

^^^Those look like their wearing wigs.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

Wait...So both Modern/Ancient Egyptians don't really have straight hair?

According to Ausar (an Egyptian) many 'Arab' Egyptians and the vast majority of non-Arab indigenous Egyptians have very curly to kinky hair to the point that if they let their hair grow out, they get afros. Even many Egyptian women use hot combs and chemicals to relax their hair.

Modern Egyptians

 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

Wait...So both Modern/Ancient Egyptians don't really have straight hair?

According to Ausar (an Egyptian) many 'Arab' Egyptians and the vast majority of non-Arab indigenous Egyptians have very curly to kinky hair to the point that if they let their hair grow out, they get afros. Even many Egyptian women use hot combs and chemicals to relax their hair.
This is very interesting...When my sister lived in Egypt. She did say a lot of Egyptians identified as black and looked similar to regular North East Africans. But she never said almost all the Egyptians had curly to kinky. Man I have been educated.

Do you think the Egyptian government only shows 'certain' Egyptians to the western world?

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HabariTess
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked?? [Confused]

Yep. You can create the exact same hairstyle with braids.

 -  -

Its basically just a variation of that^, so that you get this:

 -

Its not an afro

Um, that still could very well be an afro.

[IMG]  - [/IMG]

 -

 -

Which one does that look closer to? That Bob of yours would look very different frontal view by the way. It would be very thin on the sides being that the hair is straight and thin and not thick. The frontal view of the Egyptian man shows thickness on the sides.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Yep. You can create the exact same hairstyle with braids.

 -  -

^ Looks to me like an afro that's been styled to look 'bobbed'.

Afar men

 -

 -

quote:
Its basically just a variation of that^, so that you get this:

 -

Its not an afro

^ The above picture of Ahmose I reminds me of a hairstyle found among East African nomads who apply butter or animal fat to their hair and then style the hair into a braided like pattern.

Again, Afar.

 -

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Looks to me like an afro that's been styled to look 'bobbed'

See my reply below:

quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.

Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more consistent with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle always has the same height on the top of their head, while their hair in their neck varies; it can be long, short, etc. Compare:

 -

quote:
I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations.
Yes, I have said that in the past, but I no longer subscribe to that. I no longer believe that the people in the Maghreb are ~50% African. This is based on haplogroup analysis, but ancestry proportions in haplogroup analysis aren't necessarily reflective of ancestry proportions in the overall genome.

quote:
With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture?
Aside from Eurasian contributions, Egyptians also have received admixture from Sub-Saharan Africans in recent times, primarily during the slave trade. Some of what you're describing is because of this, some of it is simply because no population is ever 100% wavy-straight, not even Europeans. Almost all populations have individuals with curly hair.

quote:
With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture?
Ausar himself will tell you that he has a hair study of Ancient Egyptians that are inconsistent with a high prevalence of kinky/curly hair.

quote:
Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.
This is simply not true. The authors of that article created a dubious average by combining all papers. The picked a single and rare curly hair (i.e., index of Badarian sample with a cross section of 35%), and used it to bog down the average, which consisted overall of numerically much more predominant wavy hairs. That's not how you make an average.
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Tyrannohotep
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quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.

This might be pertinent:

In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair
follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.
---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981

Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.

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HabariTess
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Looks to me like an afro that's been styled to look 'bobbed'

See my reply below:

quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.

Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle is always the same on the top of their head, while it varies around the back of their head. It can be long, short, etc. Compare:

 -

I would not have classified what you posted as afros, but I doubt it is their real hair. In fact, it doesn't even look like hair. Notice what is sticking out of the ends of the hair, it may very well be some sort of head cover.

Another reason why I doubt the Ancient Egyptians had straight to wavy hair is because how they treat their hair is unlike what I've read from other straighter hair populations. Since when have straighter hair populations used wigs on a daily bases? I can see kinky hair people shaving their heads and preferring to maintain wigs just because maintenance of such hair types is difficult. In fact, we do it today.

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Swenet
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^You're glossing over the reason why they generally cut their hair (lices and hygiene), and you're also glossing over the thousands of images where those lines you mention are absent, but the exact same hair styles are depicted.

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.

This might be pertinent:

In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair
follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.
---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981

Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.

If you look at the Egyptian hair studies, those kinky hairs (and therefore, hair follicles) are represented in almost all the studies. Therefore, kinky hair shafts are not an anomaly. There is no 'clue' or 'mystery' that needs to be solved, because there is no a priori evidence that there was a high prevalence of kinky hair among Ancient Egyptians in the first place. You're looking for clues to the contrary when all available evidence says it was simply the native variation. You guys seem to be more driven by pre-conceived notions about what Africans ought to look like than concrete red flags that warrant suspicion. This is simply another True Negro approach, especially since we've already discussed populations whose paternal lineages come from the Egyptian region (Somalis) with way more wavy-straight hair than is expected from their Eurasian ancestry (i.e., Ethiopians have much curlier hair even though they have more Eurasian ancestry than Somalis). Kinky hair is clearly depicted when it is depicted in Ancient Egypt, and by far most depictions of Ancient Egyptian hair simply don't look like that (spherical in shape and with hair coils depicted):

 -

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the lioness,
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 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
^You're glossing over the reason why they generally cut their hair (lices and hygiene), and you're also glossing over the thousands of images where those lines you mention are absent, but the exact same hair styles are depicted.

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:


In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair
follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.
---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981

Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.

If you look at the Egyptian hair studies, those hairs (and therefore, hair follicles) are represented in almost all the studies. As you said, this is not an anomaly. There is no 'clue' or 'mystery' that needs to be solved, because there is no a priori evidence that there was a high prevalence of kinky hair in Ancient Egyptians the first place. Kinky hair is clearly depicted when it is depicted, and by far most depictions of Ancient Egyptian hair simply don't look like that (spherical in shape and with hair coils depicted):


I'm trying to follow what you are saying here but getting confused. Truthecentric said look at this mummy, it has a kinky hair shaft. Then you say it's not an anomally. Ok fine

But then you say

" there is no a priori evidence that there was a high prevalence of kinky hair in Ancient Egyptians the first place"

That sounds like you are making the opposite case of what Truthcentric was suggesting.

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Doug M
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This is another of the images of Seti Ist and Hathor from his tomb. Keep in mind there were multiple of these images in the tomb not one. I am not sure where the other one is but this is from Archaelogical Museum, Florence.

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/menesje/6176687250/

The other one is from Paris I believe.

Just goes to show that some people will go to great lengths to deceive, especially museums. The tomb of Seti Ist probably has/had thousands of images of the king and various deities, yet they always find the most faded and lightened images to pass off as the "authentic" images of the Egyptians. If they are even authentic in the first place. Either way we know how some images are lightened up by restorers in some cases.

The images I posted remind me of this mummy mask from about the same time period:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piedmont_fossil/5137975563/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka-Nefer-Nefer

Now Seti's tomb is one of the biggest in the Valley of the Kings and archaeologists have been making drawings and pictures of that tomb for hundreds of years and there has been a project called the "thebanmappingproject" that has supposedly been documenting any and everything from the Valley of the Kings for almost 20 years I believe and you mean to tell me we still only have the same dusty old photos from the late 1800s and early 20th century to look at from this tomb? That tells you something. They are desperate to hide the truth. All of these tombs have had full photographic color slides made for various research institutions since the 60s, yet very view of these images are public. I wonder why?

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the lioness,
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I put up the image of Seti I to show hair/wig type, But Doug's on skin now

darker skin doesn't make you more African, look at some of the Khosisans.

Let's see if Doug is right about the Theban Mapping Project

Theban Mapping project images:


Sety I led by Horus to Osiris and Hathor.
 -

Hathor presenting menat to Sety I
(scene removed by the Franco-Tuscan expedition and now in the Louvre, Paris).
 -


Opening of the Mouth ritual: Sety I seated before an offering table.
 -


Sety I offering wine to Ra-Horakhty.
 -

Sety I [before Ra-Horakhty]: Sety I's head adorned with unusual wig.
 -

Thoth with Sety I.
 -

Sety I [detail of scene with Horus].
 -

Mummy of Sety I: head (side view).
 -


Doug get your shyt together and look at what the Theban Mapping project is documenting rather than what you imagine it's documenting:

http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/search/search_images.asp

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the lioness,
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 -
Louvre Museum

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the lioness,
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^^^^ what's up with this, looks like an Indian guy ???
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Djehuti
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^ What's up with this crazy lying b|tch above trying to say Egyptians look like everyone else outside of Africa accept what they really were-- Africans??!
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

I put up the image of Seti I to show hair/wig type, But Doug's on skin now

darker skin doesn't make you more African, look at some of the Khosisans.

Yes we all know how Khoisan look like and they are not as light as you make them out to be with your select pics and the Egyptians are NOT Khoisan and are much darker (blacker)

Let's see if Doug is right about the Theban Mapping Project

Theban Mapping project images:


Sety I led by Horus to Osiris and Hathor.
 -

Hathor presenting menat to Sety I
(scene removed by the Franco-Tuscan expedition and now in the Louvre, Paris).
 -


Opening of the Mouth ritual: Sety I seated before an offering table.
 -


Sety I offering wine to Ra-Horakhty.
 -

Sety I [before Ra-Horakhty]: Sety I's head adorned with unusual wig.
 -

Thoth with Sety I.
 -

Sety I [detail of scene with Horus].
 - [/qb][/quote]
Our point exactly, chocolate dark complexions.

quote:
Mummy of Sety I: head (side view).
 -

And what is the purpose of this? To show that Seti was "Caucasian"?! LOL

quote:
Doug get your shyt together and look at what the Theban Mapping project is documenting rather than what you imagine it's documenting:

http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/search/search_images.asp

B|tch get YOUR lying sh|t outta here!
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

 -
 - ..

[Roll Eyes]

http://mitchellteachers.net/WorldHistory/AncientEgyptNearEastUnit/Images/EgyptDailyLife/AncientEgyptDailyLifeAdorningPic_large.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm122/photowebber/KMT%202/Tomb_of_Menna_-_hunters_daughter_600dpi.jpg

The lightened up lies are being flushed down. [Wink]

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
See my reply below:

quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.

Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more consistent with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle always has the same height on the top of their head, while their hair in their neck varies; it can be long, short, etc. Compare:

 -

Yes you can tell that the hairs of the men above are braided if not braided wigs due to the 'fringes' you see sticking out. As for the "bobbed" look when it comes to braids, are you aware that this is known in Egyptology as a 'Nubian style'.

Interestingly enough these Nubian style braids/wigs first became popular during the New Kingdom when it was endorsed by the 18th dynasty.

More examples of Nubian style wigs/braids:

Kiya

 -
 -

 -

Nefertiti

 -

Ankhesenamun

 -

ushabti figure

 -

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the lioness,
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Look at this Djefruity idot, the thread is about hair and he's on skin

I put this up to show the hair:

 -

and then he links this as if its' a significant difference.
 -

Defruity simply finds the darkest version of whatever peice of art one is looking at and assumes it's more accurate.
The picture could be in low light or bad exposure, does he really know what is more accurate to the actual artifact?
No he doesn't he simply trying ato patronize black people.


I could post this Khosian

 -

And Djefruity will go off looking for darker skinned Khoisans as if darker skin makes them more African

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the lioness,
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Braided hair does not indicate the hair type, you can't tell, so just stop it
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.

This might be pertinent:

In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair
follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.
---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981

Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.

Yes, and let's not forget that while Ausar said tightly curled to kinky type hair is most common among native Egyptians. Wavy hair among native Egyptians is actually occurs most often in the SOUTH especially in southern Upper Egypt. And is actually most common among NUBIANS!!

Nile Nubians (Kanuzi & Mahas peoples)

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

The Kanuzi Nubians are the northernmost of the modern Nubians who live mainly in southern Egypt especially in Aswan. While some Kanuzi do have mixed ancestry from the Ottoman Times in which some groups have intermarried with Turks and even Albanians, such a mixture may explain the light complexions among some individuals but NOT their hair texture since we know the vast majority of Eurasian admixture is found in the northern Delta where folks still have predominantly very curly to kinky hair. Neither does that explain the wavy form of the Mahas and other Nubians further south who have very dark complexions no different from other Africans.

All of this supports that not only is wavy hair indigenous to Africa but as Swenet pointed out was even common in Nubia judging from the Semna remains.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
 -

Yes, that's exactly what I think of when I see these hairstyles.

 -

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


 -

__________________________________________________________then what is her type of hair? ^^^^

_______________________________________________she may be twisting up braids on the woman at left

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Son of Ra
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@Djehuti.

So how did Egyptians have more curly hair and the Nubians more wavy? Don't both groups like live in the same environment?

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Djehuti
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^^ Read what I posted on page 9 about my hypothesis on the evolution of wavy hair and its correlation with arid climate. Note there are indigenous (black) populations in Arabia who have assorted hair types. Many people in Yemen have kinky hair but then there are other groups especially in Oman who have wavy hair.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ What's up with this crazy lying b|tch above trying to say Egyptians look like everyone else outside of Africa accept what they really were-- Africans??!

The airheaded liar is trying to force any variation that's rare in many quarters of equatorial Africa into the 'admixture' category, but she's adamantly reluctant to comment on the fact that the Egyptian substratum includes ancestry that hasn't been in equatorial Africa for 10s of thousands of years, and so, not only do they not look like duplicates of many equatorial Africans, they're not even supposed to look like equatorial Africans:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
You can place it all in Africa and ask the same question why the bizarre contrast in one region of Africa compared to another. In other words fail.

You cannot demonstrate that the extant kinky haired populations that live in the Northern or Southern third of the continent have lived there as long as the ancestors of the Egypto-Nubians have lived at that lattitude (From Nazlet Khater, all the way to Wadi Kubbaniya and Wadi Halfa). This Upper Palaeolithic presence is also indicated by various haplogroups (in particular, mtDNA L3k which expanded into that region 30-40kya). And that's not even counting the pre-L3 lineages that didn't survive in modern Northern Africans (e.g., Skhull and Qafzeh). Therefore, it is YOUR argument that fails.

 -


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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb]See my reply below:

quote:
Originally posted by HabariTess:
I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.

Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more consistent with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle always has the same height on the top of their head, while their hair in their neck varies; it can be long, short, etc. Compare:

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Yes you can tell that the hairs of the men above are braided if not braided wigs due to the 'fringes' you see sticking out. As for the "bobbed" look when it comes to braids, are you aware that this is known in Egyptology as a 'Nubian style'.

Interestingly enough these Nubian style braids/wigs first became popular during the New Kingdom when it was endorsed by the 18th dynasty.

More examples of Nubian style wigs/braids:


The picture of the three men was just an example. Its irrelevant that the lines on the edges may indicate that they were wearing wigs or headdresses, because we know Egyptian wigs and headdresses often imitated or looked like real hairstyles (nemes, khat headdress, cap crown, fake beard). You can easily see the same hairstyles of the three men in natural form on the various reproductions of the so called table of nations and various 18th dynasty nobles (e.g., Sennefer, Nakht, Ahmose, Khnumhotep). My point is that the images that were posted weren't afros, and that they would have looked similar to what the khat headdress looks like. This is a more appropriate comparison than the bob hairstyle, which I had just mentioned for the lack of a better term. The most prominent difference between the khat headdress and the hairstyle in question is probably that the former usually isn't depicted as covering the ears of the subject, while the latter does. Note that the khat hairdress also comes in 'braided' form.

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Posts: 7498 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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