posted
"It's crazy to compare the genetic profile of modern Egypt after multiple foreign invasions, occupations and migration with the genetic profile of Ancient Egypt which was like 5000 years ago."
-Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Actually the foreign invasions in historical times would have put more Y-DNA lineages than mtDNA lineages. Besides all anthropologists agree that the modern Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages. Despite the invasion of Islam into Egypt Y-haplogroup E is 65% of the population. Is it just me or is Ramesses III's STRs much different than that of the 18th dynasty. Could be a different haplogroup.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Ponsford: It is important to note that a European Y chromosome most definitely R1b was used as a "control" in ascertaining Ramesses111 E1b1a hap group. I suspect the same thing was done during King Tut's study and this is what caused the confusion with the R1b hap group on the Discovery Channel screen and people assumed it was King Tut.
This was exactly what happened when Tut's DNA was tested. But try telling this to Clyde Winters. As soon as the Euroloons posted the lie that Tut was R1b based on that one photo, the fool reacts by searching for African origins of R1b! LMAO Not to say he is necessarily wrong since underived R1* does exist in significant frequencies in West Africa as well as derived R1 clades not found in Eurasia. The point is, only a naive minded person would quickly drink the tainted koolaid of the Euronuts and then desperately try to come up with a better flavor. Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You speak as if there are no modern Egyptians that are black.
I didn't say there was no black African in modern Egypt or modern China for that matter (in modern Egypt: some indigenous, other migrants other admixed). That much is obvious. I said: It's crazy to compare the genetic profile of modern Egypt with the genetic profile of Ancient Egypt. The genetic structure of modern egypt has changed a lot since 5000 years ago due to foreign invasion (greeks, romans, persian, assyrians, muslim arabs, etc), occupation and migration.
The DNA Tribes study of the Ramses III mummy says this about it (well known fact):
quote:The present day genetic structure of Egypt might also have been influenced by later expansions in the Mediterranean and Near East. These included the large empires of the ancient world that integrated multiple cultures (primarily of West Asia), such as the Achaemenid and Macedonian empires (both known for religious tolerance). Similarly, the Arab migrations of the medieval period began in the Hejaz (the Arabian Peninsula adjacent to the Red Sea), and might have increased Egyptian contacts with neighboring populations of North Africa and the Near East.
All of these migrations (see Figure 1) might have influenced the present day genetic structure of Africa and Eurasia (including Egypt). For this reason, present day DNA matches in the following geographical analysis might to some degree reflect these population movements that took place after the time in Ramesses III.
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Actually the foreign invasions in historical times would have put more Y-DNA lineages than mtDNA lineages. Besides all anthropologists agree that the modern Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages.
posted
^ Not to mention that as long as we have the STR data directly from ancient Egyptian remains, any speculation based on the modern population's Y-chromosome lineages are moot.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ Not to mention that as long as we have the STR data directly from ancient Egyptian remains, any speculation based on the modern population's Y-chromosome lineages are moot.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ Not to mention that as long as we have the STR data directly from ancient Egyptian remains, any speculation based on the modern population's Y-chromosome lineages are moot.
^Agree. And to add to that, only 10% of foreign lineages to the Egyptian genepool don't make a population go from this in STR analysis:
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages.
Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.
Citations? You know this is common knowledge.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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Oh yes, his chocolate complexion is only due to the shadow but as soon as there is better lighting, his complexion will be lighter. LOL @ this dumb twit.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Oh yes, his chocolate complexion is only due to the shadow but as soon as there is better lighting, his complexion will be lighter. LOL @ this dumb twit.
^^^ these are black people?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Citations?
-Swenet
Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.
Citations? You know this is common knowledge.
I don't give squat about Ramses III's mtDNA, or even his Y chromosome, for that matter. This is all a peek into the genetics of the (early) Ancient Egyptian population. That's what I'm really after. Not necessarily the genetics of some king from a dying era, whom I don't even particularly admire. I leave that to you Euronuts who want to feel validated by being under the illusion that specific kings from other continents have a connection to you.
As far as the date of entry of these Eurasian lineages, I don't know anything about what you profess is ''common knowledge''. By avoiding the issue, I'll just take it to mean that you were just referring to imaginary data when you said ''Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages''.
In the meantime, what I DO know, is this:
quote:Haplogroups A, B, and E occur mainly in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups including Nilotics, Fur, Borgu, and Masalit; whereas haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group. Mantel tests reveal a strong correlation between genetic and linguistic structures (r =0.31,P = 0.007), and a similar correlationbetween genetic and geographic distances (r = 0.29, P = 0.025) that appears after removing nomadic pastoralists of no known geographic locality from the analysis. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared with the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former.
--Hassan et al, 2008
And what I also know is this:
quote:Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed.
The finding of Yap, and particularly, F-M89, in late dynastic Kushite aDNA fits nicely with what you're about to read below, since we know markers within both parahaplogroups, when found in tandem in Nilo-Saharan speakers, hint at admixture with Semetic and/or Cushitic speakers (also see the excerpt from Hassan 2008 above), just like how the latter two populations were the intermediaries for F-M89 haplogroups in Omotic speakers:
quote:The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ~3 thousand years ago (kya).
--Pagani et al, 2012
What were you saying again, about some sort of a consensus among Anthropologists, regarding the early date of entry for most Eurasian lineages in the Nile Valley?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: (it gets too heated...) (thinks it might be better to think twice) (Packs bags.. and jumps ship...) (...Silence...) (cricket chirp, cricket chirp...)
Thought so.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Man Ice, Whats wrong with you? You are so obsessed with Africa, an Place that Original Man Live that you want to cling on to some Fantasy that AE were linked to Euros? An people that is probably the Youngest of Gods Children. That you Ignore that Ramses was an E1b1a African, Meaning No LINKS to Europe yet you want to dream that Ramses Mtdna will come out MiddleEastern thinking then Euros can Claim an part of Africa they Have NO PLACE in? Excuse me while I laugh BAHAHAHAHA.
Really don't you see how Pathetic you are?? 1st DNATRIBE then Hawass himself who Hates(maybe) Africa admits Ramses is majority African from his YDNA yet you and other euro racists hope to see Scinetists tell you that there is still hope for Euros?? What makes you so confident that AE MTDNA will say differently? What proof you have of this. Don't be an Coward and Hide, only to come back several days later spewing the same ISH like You did today. Be an Man and admit when you are wrong.
Swenet, Brother, Keep puttingan hurt on for them Boys. They really have no shame.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Citations?
-Swenet
Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.
Citations? You know this is common knowledge.
For me, the real issue is not whether or not people have moved between Africa and geographically adjacent areas throughout the Upper Paleolithic and after. The real issue is whether the back-migrants you invoke resembled or had any genetic affinity to your ideal "Mediterranean Caucasians". Since discussions like this ultimately certain around phenotype, it doesn't suffice for you to mention back-migrations into Africa. You need to show that these back-migrations involved Caucasian-looking people.
I notice that your kind insist on Caucasians swamping the Nile Valley from Eurasia in the mists of prehistory, but don't show nearly the same enthusiasm for recorded historical migrations in the same direction. I for one would wager that the type of mass migration needed to demographically dominate any area would require technology and numbers not available in prehistoric times. Ergo, historically documented migrations make more sense than your hypothetical Cro-Magnon Caucasian conquerors.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Man Ice, Whats wrong with you? You are so obsessed with Africa, an Place that Original Man Live that you want to cling on to some Fantasy that AE were linked to Euros? An people that is probably the Youngest of Gods Children. That you Ignore that Ramses was an E1b1a African, Meaning No LINKS to Europe yet you want to dream that Ramses Mtdna will come out MiddleEastern thinking then Euros can Claim an part of Africa they Have NO PLACE in? Excuse me while I laugh BAHAHAHAHA.
Actually I don't think the people we routinely call "Euronuts" all want Egyptians to look European. Most of them are content with a "Semitic" or Southwest Asian identity for Kemet. What they really care about is dissociating Egypt from so-called "True Negro" sub-Saharan Africans. As long as the establishment links Egypt to anyone other than black people, our opponents are content.
Honestly, I still don't know why people are still hostile to the idea of a Black African Egypt. Even the guys who acknowledge (geographically) sub-Saharan civilizations like Great Zimbabwe or Mali draw a line at Egypt.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Man Ice, Whats wrong with you? You are so obsessed with Africa, an Place that Original Man Live that you want to cling on to some Fantasy that AE were linked to Euros? An people that is probably the Youngest of Gods Children. That you Ignore that Ramses was an E1b1a African, Meaning No LINKS to Europe yet you want to dream that Ramses Mtdna will come out MiddleEastern thinking then Euros can Claim an part of Africa they Have NO PLACE in? Excuse me while I laugh BAHAHAHAHA.
Actually I don't think the people we routinely call "Euronuts" all want Egyptians to look European. Most of them are content with a "Semitic" or Southwest Asian identity for Kemet. What they really care about is dissociating Egypt from so-called "True Negro" sub-Saharan Africans. As long as the establishment links Egypt to anyone other than black people, our opponents are content.
Honestly, I still don't know why people are still hostile to the idea of a Black African Egypt. Even the guys who acknowledge (geographically) sub-Saharan civilizations like Great Zimbabwe or Mali draw a line at Egypt.
You're right on this too. Some Euronuts would prefer to link Ancient Egypt with semetic/west asian people than with black Africans. Ramses III being E1b1a and the DNA Tribes genetic study on mummies is not what they like to read about.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
"The real issue is whether the back-migrants you invoke resembled or had any genetic affinity to your ideal "Mediterranean Caucasians". Since discussions like this ultimately certain around phenotype, it doesn't suffice for you to mention back-migrations into Africa. You need to show that these back-migrations involved Caucasian-looking people."
-Truthcentric
Actually the back migrations from the Levant which brought mtDNA haplogroups U6 and M1 happened just after these people had mixed with Neanderthals so not only was there a 20,000 year genetic isolation from the sub-Saharans but they also would have possessed more Neanderthal genes than modern populations. They obviously were significantly different than sub-Saharans by 45,000 years ago as you know sub-Saharans have no genetic link to Neanderthals.
"I notice that your kind insist on Caucasians swamping the Nile Valley from Eurasia in the mists of prehistory, but don't show nearly the same enthusiasm for recorded historical migrations in the same direction."
-Truthcentric
The invasions of the Hyksos onward had very little effect on the population. Mainstream scholars agree the population now isn't much different than ancient Egyptians were (i.e. Frank Yurco).
"I for one would wager that the type of mass migration needed to demographically dominate any area would require technology and numbers not available in prehistoric times. Ergo, historically documented migrations make more sense than your hypothetical Cro-Magnon Caucasian conquerors."
-Truthcentric
You make no sense here. The genetic evidence shows that these migrations had occured at this time there is no hypothetical Cro-Magnon migrations, they are factual migrations. There is even a known migration 12,000 years ago directly from Spain across Gibraltar.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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Oh pardon me for actually having a life, you really have to stop and think that not everyone eats, sleeps, and sh@!s in front of their computer like you do. LOL!
"The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe..."
Like I said post-Neolithic Y-DNA and some mtDNA from Asia was no more than 10%. I'm talking about the Eurasian mtDNA which all studies agree are the result of back migrations from the Upper Palaeolithic onward until the founding of Egypt.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
"That you Ignore that Ramses was an E1b1a African..."
-KING
Read again until you can comprehend it.....That's right I didn't ignore this I said it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today. Which also makes it likely that he had a Eurasian mtDNA haplogroup because that is quite common in Egypt today too. It's logic....Oh you might want to look that up in the dictionary!
"Really don't you see how Pathetic you are...."
-KING
Does it make you feel better to project your insecurites by calling other people pathetic? Obviously you know how pathetic it must be to deny everything that doesn't agree with your point of view like all the DNA evidence that proves back migrations of Eurasians....Oh wait a minute isn't DNA evidence what you're using to prove Rameses III was sub-Saharan disregarding all the other DNA evidence? That makes you a pathetic hypocrite! LOL!
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Oh pardon me for actually having a life, you really have to stop and think that not everyone eats, sleeps, and sh@!s in front of their computer like you do. LOL!
Even if you were busy, I was still right. Its STILL crickets. You're talking but you're not saying anything. Try again:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Actually the foreign invasions in historical times would have put more Y-DNA lineages than mtDNA lineages. Besides all anthropologists agree that the modern Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages.
Citations?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Citations?
-Swenet
Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.
Citations? You know this is common knowledge. [/qb]
I don't give squat about Ramses III's mtDNA, or even his Y chromosome, for that matter. This is all a peek into the genetics of the (early) Ancient Egyptian population. That's what I'm really after. Not necessarily the genetics of some king from a dying era, whom I don't even particularly admire. I leave that to you Euronuts who want to feel validated by being under the illusion that specific kings from other continents have a connection to you.
As far as the date of entry of these Eurasian lineages, I don't know anything about what you profess is ''common knowledge''. By avoiding the issue, I'll just take it to mean that you were just referring to imaginary data when you said ''Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages''.
In the meantime, what I DO know, is this:
quote:Haplogroups A, B, and E occur mainly in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups including Nilotics, Fur, Borgu, and Masalit; whereas haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group. Mantel tests reveal a strong correlation between genetic and linguistic structures (r =0.31,P = 0.007), and a similar correlationbetween genetic and geographic distances (r = 0.29, P = 0.025) that appears after removing nomadic pastoralists of no known geographic locality from the analysis. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared with the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former.
--Hassan et al, 2008
And what I also know is this:
quote:Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed.
The finding of Yap, and particularly, F-M89, in late dynastic Kushite aDNA fits nicely with what you're about to read below, since we know markers within both parahaplogroups, when found in tandem in Nilo-Saharan speakers, hint at admixture with Semetic and/or Cushitic speakers (also see the excerpt from Hassan 2008 above), just like how the latter two populations were the intermediaries for F-M89 haplogroups in Omotic speakers:
quote:The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ~3 thousand years ago (kya).
--Pagani et al, 2012
What were you saying again, about some sort of a consensus among Anthropologists, regarding the early date of entry for most Eurasian lineages in the Nile Valley?
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Read again until you can comprehend it.....That's right I didn't ignore this I said it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today. Which also makes it likely that he had a Eurasian mtDNA haplogroup because that is quite common in Egypt today too. It's logic....Oh you might want to look that up in the dictionary!
Its not logic, its a deceptive ploy. YOU'RE the one who needs to read again what is being said, in particular, where King said Ramses III is E1b1a, not Pn2 or simply within the Pn2 clade.
Your ''logic'' is in fact, a fallacy, because E1b1a is not at all common in modern Egypt, Sudan or the wider immediate areas. By refusing to address E1b1a and bitching on and on about PN2, you indeed demonstrate that you don't like the results, like King said. You're ranting on and on about PN2, thinking no one is onto your ploy to marginalize Ramses III's rare in modern Egypt clade.
This has to be on of the more pathetic Euronut methods to cope with this emotionally distressing result: simply conflate E1b1a with a set of modern Egyptian haplogroups that ARE common in Egypt, and act this haplogroup prediction is ''nothing out of the ordinary''.
posted
"Even if you were busy, I was still right. Its STILL crickets. You're talking but you're not saying anything. Try again"
-Swenet
Oh your gonna pretend like you don't hear anything about Eurasian migrations. You know it's coming and you dread the day that a pharaoh is proven to have Eurasian DNA. All the Rameses study did was prolong your grief.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
^You're pathetic. The only reason why someone would bring up Ramses III's potential Eurasian lineages in light of his y chromosome is because they find this result painful, and they want to get even. This potential scenario has no relevance whatsoever to this discovery, yet this is all you keep talking about like a retarded zombie.
You tried to marginalize <50% mtDNA L lineages in Chalcolithic Iberia, and you now try to marginalize E1b1a in Ancient Egypt. Both times you were called out for your b.s.. Back then alTakruri spanked you good, what makes you think you won't suffer the same fate now?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
"You're ranting on and on about PN2, thinking no one is onto your ploy to marginalize Ramses III's rare clade in modern Egypt."
-Swenet
I'm ranting. You know my logic is correct that's why you're getting so emotional about this, you're even projecting your ranting on me without realizing it. I'm gonna have fun with you. Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline and that's why you fear the scientist!
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
"You tried to marginalize <50% mtDNA L lineages in Chalcolithic Iberia, and you now try to marginalize E1b1a in Ancient Egypt."
-Swenet
Your upset because you know it is marginal! Everything I'm saying here are the very things you can't face!
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline
No dynasty is of royal bloodline, with the exception of some dynasties that were delineated for some reason other than new ascension to the throne (e.g., the 17th-18th dynasty transition). That's why they're called dynasties in the first place, dummy.
Quiz: How do you know someone is really hurt by E1b1a in Ancient Egypt?
a) When the said person tries to detract from the results by talking about irrelevant sh!t like, whether or E1b1a was found in someone who was from a royal bloodline, instead of the more important fact that it was found in Ancient Egypt period
b) When the said person tries to detract from the results by using deceptive ploys, i.e., fabricating that E1b1a is among the set of PN2 lineages that are common in Modern Egypt
c) When the said person tries to detract from the results by ranting on and on about the remote possibility that Ramses III had a Eurasian lineage.
quote:In psychology, avoidance coping, or escape coping, is a maladaptive coping mechanism[1] characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor.[2] Coping refers to behaviors that attempt to protect oneself from psychological damage.[3] Variations of avoidance coping include modifying or eliminating the conditions that gave rise to the problem and changing the perception of an experience in a way that neutralizes the problem.[3]
posted
"In psychology, avoidance coping, or escape coping, is a maladaptive coping mechanism[1] characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor.[2] Coping refers to behaviors that attempt to protect oneself from psychological damage.[3] Variations of avoidance coping include modifying or eliminating the conditions that gave rise to the problem and changing the perception of an experience in a way that neutralizes the problem."
-Swenet
None of this applies to me because you're the one who's delusional if you think Eurasian DNA is unlikely! Take your own advise!! LOL!
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: None of this applies to me because you're the one who's delusional
It doesn't apply to you because it applies to me? What type of retarded reasoning is that? If one person is coping, other people can't cope? The third time in this thread that your patchy child-like ''logic'' is called out for the thrash it is:
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: None of this applies to me because you're the one who's delusional
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today.
posted
^ Obviously the mtDNA distraction is all they have left to cling onto their Caucasian Pharaohs fantasy. It doesn't matter if the autosomal data and possibly the Y-chromosome data too paint a contrary picture. One scintilla of remote Eurasian ancestry, even if it predates skin de-pigmentation in Euro-Arabian populations, will suffice for drainedbraincells' agenda.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.
And Ancient Egyptians were Berbers? Note also that I never denied Eurasian ancestry for Ancient Egyptians, let alone late dynastic Egyptians. When you're instigating sh!t, at least make sure you do your homework, airhead.
You should pool resources and buy this book with acid-rain-melted-ice:
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline
Actually, I question this claim as well. Since even though the Ramessides show no direct ancestry or link with the previous dynasty in terms of paternal ancestry, there is evidence to suggest strong links via maternal ancestry. And those of us in the know, are well aware that ancient Egyptians were traditionally matrilocal/matrilineal with the true royal bloodline traced through women and a man could only be pharaoh by marrying a royal lady.
And speaking of maternal ancestry, I find it funny how you like many Euronuts try to "seek a way out" of the findings on Ramses by turning to some alleged Eurasian mtDNA ancestry. You bring up the supposed Eurasian mtDNA of the Berbers (even though such ancestry like U6 show up in minimal frequencies outside of Africa) yet forget that the gene pool of northeast Africa (both Egypt and Sudan) are distinct from the gene pool of the northwest Africa. It wouldn't be surprising if the mtDNA findings would turn out to be M1 since like E1b1a, that clade is also prevalent in small pockets in the southern part of Egypt.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.
Yes Berbers by and large (with the exception of the light skinned coastal types) carry no recent Eurasian ancestry, since by 'Eurasian' Swenet means hg U6 and similar clades. Whether these clades are actually Eurasian though is still a matter of debate since these show no significant frequencies outside of Africa. These lineages also definitely predate the existence of light or fair skin.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Obviously the mtDNA distraction is all they have left to cling onto their Caucasian Pharaohs fantasy. It doesn't matter if the autosomal data and possibly the Y-chromosome data too paint a contrary picture. One scintilla of remote Eurasian ancestry, even if it predates skin de-pigmentation in Euro-Arabian populations, will suffice for drainedbraincells' agenda.
Yeah, that's pretty much the M.O. 'Eurasian' in their minds mean light-skinned or 'Caucasian'-like. By the way, it can be argued that de-pigmentation as a trait is non-indigenous to Arabia but was introduced there by populations from further north.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: For me, the real issue is not whether or not people have moved between Africa and geographically adjacent areas throughout the Upper Paleolithic and after. The real issue is whether the back-migrants you invoke resembled or had any genetic affinity to your ideal "Mediterranean Caucasians". Since discussions like this ultimately certain around phenotype, it doesn't suffice for you to mention back-migrations into Africa. You need to show that these back-migrations involved Caucasian-looking people.
I notice that your kind insist on Caucasians swamping the Nile Valley from Eurasia in the mists of prehistory, but don't show nearly the same enthusiasm for recorded historical migrations in the same direction. I for one would wager that the type of mass migration needed to demographically dominate any area would require technology and numbers not available in prehistoric times. Ergo, historically documented migrations make more sense than your hypothetical Cro-Magnon Caucasian conquerors.
The irony is that there are Sub-Saharans who carry 'Eurasian' type clades that are not recent but date from the early epochs you mentioned, yet the Euronuts are not in any rush to 'claim' these people. A perfect example would be West and Central Africans who carry y-chromosomal hg R. These individuals look no different from other members of their groups or neighbors who don't carry R in that they are stereotypically negroid! Yet they carry R lineages associated with Eurasians even though some of them carry downstream markers not found in Europe and it turns out Cameroonians show a high frequency of underived R1*. I also find it interesting that R1 itself dates to around the same time that mt hg U6 arose where it is found today predominantly in northwest Africa.
So either these clades are not Eurasian OR they arose in Eurasians who didn't look any different from the Africans who never left the continent when they back-migrated to Africa.
I tell the Euronuts to pick their poison.
quote: Actually I don't think the people we routinely call "Euronuts" all want Egyptians to look European. Most of them are content with a "Semitic" or Southwest Asian identity for Kemet. What they really care about is dissociating Egypt from so-called "True Negro" sub-Saharan Africans. As long as the establishment links Egypt to anyone other than black people, our opponents are content.
Correct. 'Caucasian' for the Euronuts is not limited to European alone, unlike their hypocrisy and double-think that 'Negro' is limited to Africa and 'Sub-Saharan' Africa to be exact!
quote:Honestly, I still don't know why people are still hostile to the idea of a Black African Egypt. Even the guys who acknowledge (geographically) sub-Saharan civilizations like Great Zimbabwe or Mali draw a line at Egypt.
That's because there is still a deeply ingrained psychological bias against blacks in terms of significant history. Egypt as we know was not only the oldest and most advanced civilizations in the world, it was also one that was highly influential and helped shaped 'Western Civilization'. Thus it is unacceptable even anathema to many whites that such a civilization could be the product of blacks! It's just an unfortunate and shameful fact that racism is alive and well. That you, Truthcentric, as well as KING are white people who have no problem with this historical truth just gives me hope that the mental disorder that is racism will end someday. LOLPosts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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He thinks that E1b1a is common in Egypt so he was not surprised that Ramses came out with that?
BUT WAIT
This is the same pathetic Euro who tries to sneak one of his lies ythrough hoping no one calls him on it.
Wanna know what I am saying of this bout?
Read The Pigs quote to me:
Originally posted by rainingburntice: it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today .
Now if you are an novince, or know how these Trolls operate you may walk away thinking this pigs squeal was legit. Sadly he forgot to mention WHICH Hap e was Ramses. Ramses was Hap E1b1a NOT E1b1b like majority of Egyptians are. He lies to himself thinking Me, Truth, Swenet and Djeuhti won't call him on it.
I really find it pathetic that Euros are so desperate to cling on to Egypt that they CONVINCE themselves Eurasians genes will link them to Egypt through the Middle East. Then Came DNA TRIBE and Now HAWASS an known Black hater admit that Ramses the most Known pharoh to King Tut comes out Not only Majority black But more Central and West Africa NOT the Horn. So now they(racists) now have to scramble to keep there sanity and delusions that they are superior so now they pray MTDNA will work in there favors. Excuse me while I laugh Bahahahahah. Ice you have no shame and you squeal like the pig you show us you are.
hey Ice, Tell the Forum again how you KNEW ramses would Come out E1b1a and Not E1b1b. I want to respect you but you seem like an racist like salassain and others who love to Make Mutts of Africa and an pure Europe
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
^Indeed. Although there have been samples with notable E1b1a in Egypt and Nubia, the overall frequency of this haplogroup in the modern Egypto-Sudanese area is probably below 1%. But never mind facts, because this is Acid-Rain's idea of a ''common'' haplogroup. See the frequency of E1b1a in Egypt:
It will be interesting to see to which region modern Egyptian E1b1a Y chromosomes have the most affinity. That of Ramses III, or Niger Congo speakers. That should give an idea of the magnitude of the demographic changes that were involved, or, in other words, to what extent Egypt specific E1b1a has vanished, and to what extent it has been accommodated with more Niger-Congo affiliated E1b1a in historic times.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: And Ancient Egyptians were Berbers? Note also that I never denied Eurasian ancestry for Ancient Egyptians, let alone late dynastic Egyptians. When you're instigating sh!t, at least make sure you do your homework, airhead.
Djehooti in the narmer palette thread suggested that the palette may represent a pre dynastic conquering of Western desert population Libyans to unify them as Egyptians. Don't shoot the messanger
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
You don't understand the dynamics that are at work here, hence, your confusion when it comes to these matters and your spastic quoting behavior, which says more about your bulging ignorance of the subject than the people you're trying to 'expose' and accuse of being contradictory.
This ancestry that you're quoting me on, for the most part, is ancestry that they received through mediators in the Maghreb, and so, my quote isn't necessarily applicable to Berbers that stayed close to their Northeast African homeland:
quote:More precisely, the data show a genetic differentiation between North-Western and North-Eastern Berber groups: populations from the Maghreb are related to European and Eastern populations (from Siwa in Egypt) and share more affinities with East and Sub- Saharans populations.
--Jean-Marie Hombert and Francesco d’Errico (2009)
Don't feel bad though. You're not alone in your unsophistication when in comes to African population genetics. Acid-Rain also seems to be in the dark about the schism between coastal Northwest and coastal Northeastern Africans, judging by his/her confused attempts to involve (Ancient) Egyptians in prehistoric Iberia to Maghreb geneflow.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^ Indeed, ignorance seems to be rampant lately with these findings so shocking to the Euronuts and their cronies.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Djehooti in the narmer palette thread suggested that the palette may represent a pre dynastic conquering of Western desert population Libyans to unify them as Egyptians. Don't shoot the messenger
Yes, I do support the popular theory that the predynastic Delta was inhabited by Temehu Libyans, but what the hell does that have to do with Maghrebi genetics, you twit?! There you go using my (others) quotes to try to fit your silly and debunked agenda!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Indeed. Although there have been samples with notable E1b1a in Egypt and Nubia, the overall frequency of this haplogroup in the modern Egypto-Sudanese area is probably below 1%. But never mind facts, because this is Acid-Rain's idea of a ''common'' haplogroup. See the frequency of E1b1a in Egypt:
It will be interesting to see to which region modern Egyptian E1b1a Y chromosomes have the most affinity. That of Ramses III, or Niger Congo speakers. That should give an idea of the magnitude of the demographic changes that were involved, or, in other words, to what extent Egypt specific E1b1a has vanished, and to what extent it has been accommodated with more Niger-Congo affiliated E1b1a in historic times.
Indeed, this also affirms the DNATribe findings of phraonic autosomal DNA which among certain alleles is also quite rare in modern Egypt. It looks like the picture of pharaonic Egypt's population is becoming clearer now much to the agony of the Euronuts and their mulattanutta associates. Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
"He thinks that E1b1a is common in Egypt so he was not surprised that Ramses came out with that?"
-KING
Liar, I never said E1b1a was common in Egypt. I said Y HG E is common in Egypt. I said I wasn't surprised to find that he was Hg E. As for Hg E1b1a it's presence in ancient Egypt agrees with archaeology. It is connected with the sorghum/millet/pottery complex. The highest frequency of E1b1a is in West Africa and the oldest pottery is found in Mali 9400 BC. From there this Nilo-Saharan culture moved east and is found at Nabta Playa 7000 BC.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
"Yet they carry R lineages associated with Eurasians even though some of them carry downstream markers not found in Europe and it turns out Cameroonians show a high frequency of underived R1*."
-Djehuti
Where in you're head did this idea crawl out of? They were R-V88 not R1*.
"So either these clades are not Eurasian OR they arose in Eurasians who didn't look any different from the Africans who never left the continent when they back-migrated to Africa."
-Djehuti
Those people that are haplogroup R-V88 in sub-Saharan Africa were at least 90% mtDNA Hg L they're not the same as the people that migrated from Eurasia in the Holocene.
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
"It doesn't apply to you because it applies to me?"
-Swenet
Are you that slow? Here I'll write it again, None of this applies to me, because, you're the one who's delusional. How is that so hard to understand, but of couse it probably is for you since your the one that's in denial. You're above quote is twisted to mean what you want it to mean. I'll bet all the books in your library are dummy books too by the way! LOL!
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: "It doesn't apply to you because it applies to me?"
-Swenet
Are you that slow? Here I'll write it again, None of this applies to me, because, you're the one who's delusional. How is that so hard to understand, but of couse it probably is for you since your the one that's in denial. You're above quote is twisted to mean what you want it to mean. I'll bet all the books in your library are dummy books too by the way! LOL!
GOD DAYYUM, BOY YOU STUPID!!!!!!!!
BTW if E1b1a people domesticated Sorghum and Millet in West Africa, why doesn't proto-Niger Congo (whose speakers have the highest and most diverse E1b1a) have any linguistic reconstructions dealing with agriculture?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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BTW if E1b1a people domesticated Sorghum and Millet in West Africa, why doesn't proto-Niger Congo (whose speakers have the highest and most diverse E1b1a) have any linguistic reconstructions dealing with agriculture?"
-beyoku
Do you call everyone stupid that you can't refute? I realize that it's second nature for bozo's like you to call people stupid who make you aware of facts you just can't seem to face, but I can't help you with that, go see a shrink! By the way, no language group owns any particular haplogroup 'genius'! And some actually consider Nilo-Saharan Languages as a descendant of Niger-Congo. What's so impossible about E1b1a being linked to West African Neolithic cultures?
Posts: 171 | From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djeshuti: ^ Indeed, ignorance seems to be rampant lately with these findings so shocking to the Euronuts and their cronies.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [qb] Djehooti in the narmer palette thread suggested that the palette may represent a pre dynastic conquering of Western desert population Libyans to unify them as Egyptians. Don't shoot the messenger
Yes, I do support the popular theory that the predynastic Delta was inhabited by Temehu Libyans, but what the hell does that have to do with Maghrebi genetics, you twit?! There you go using my (others) quotes to try to fit your silly and debunked agenda!
And why would Libya not be part of Mahgreb genetics?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: -KING Liar, I never said E1b1a was common in Egypt.
Not outright, but that's where you were tacitly going with it, until I stopped your fallacy dead in its tracks.
If your intention wasn't to suggest that E1b1a was common in Egypt, it wouldn't make sense to evoke present day conditions in Egypt and say that Ramses III's lineage is likely correlated with Eurasian mtDNA.
Your dumbass was extrapolating based on what's common in Egypt today, so, if you weren't talking about E1b1a in a round about way when you said 'E', your argument stops making sense. What sense would there be to link Egyptian E1b1a with present day Egyptian Eurasian mtDNA, and not a more ancient mtDNA substratum?
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: I said I wasn't surprised to find that he was Hg E. As for Hg E1b1a it's presence in ancient Egypt agrees with archaeology. It is connected with the sorghum/millet/pottery complex.
You're only contradicting yourself with this admission, which you state in a matter of fact type of way, even though there is no evidence in existence which points to the claim that E1b1a is linked to Sorghum/Millet cultivators.
There is no need to view E1b1a as any more recent in the Nile Valley than E-M35. There is 10ky of Nile Valley history that neither E-M78 nor E-M35 can account for, but that E1b1a CAN account for, along with B-M60 and A-M13.
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: The highest frequency of E1b1a is in West Africa and the oldest pottery is found in Mali 9400 BC. From there this Nilo-Saharan culture moved east and is found at Nabta Playa 7000 BC.
Another bizarre claim. We don't know when E1b1a carrying Africans migrated to the region of this Mali pottery find, and prior to this E1b1a migration, West African populations weren't E1b1a, but A and E-M33, among other Y chromosomes. Notice that the pottery site where pre-E1b1a West Africans invented, is Dogon territory. Point? Dogon are high in this prehistoric West African clade (E-M33).
Your link of E1b1a and Nilo-Saharans is totally pulled out of thin air. Even certain Levantines and certain Arabs have more E1b1a than the average Nilo-Saharan. Might as well pull out your Euronut hat and say that Ramses III got his E1b1a from Palestinians and/or Arabs.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Not to say he is necessarily wrong since underived R1* does exist in significant frequencies in West Africa as well as derived R1 clades not found in Eurasia. The point is, only a naive minded person would quickly drink the tainted koolaid of the Euronuts and then desperately try to come up with a better flavor. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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Oh yes, his chocolate complexion is only due to the shadow but as soon as there is better lighting, his complexion will be lighter. LOL @ this dumb twit.
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