posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] The earliest civilization in Southwest Arabia date back to the 2nd Millenium. This culture is called the Tihama culture which originated in Africa (Fattovich, 2008).

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
The problem is that Amun-Ra tries to identify the DNA Tribes findings with Obenga's Negro-Egyptien when the genetic data has nothing to do with linguistic groupings

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quote:

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Haplogroup E-P2 (Y-DNA)

Possible time of origin 17,400 - 38,200 years BP
Possible place of origin East Africa
Defining mutations DYS391p, L337, L339, L342, L487, L492, L613, P2/PN2, P179, P180, P181

In human population genetics, haplogroups define the major lineages of direct paternal (male) lines back to a shared common ancestor in Africa. E-P2 is the most dominant Y-Chromosome lineage in Africa and exists at lower frequencies in the Middle East and Europe. The lineage is thought to have originated in or near modern day Ethiopia.

Origin

E-P2 is likely to have originated in the highlands of East Africa's Ethiopia, as this is the place with the high frequency of ancestral subclades of this haplogroup. E-P2 is the ancestor of the majority of E subclade lineages existing today. It has diverged into two subclades: E-V38 and E-M215 approximately 24-27,000 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004).

Trombetta et al. 2011, further confirmed the previously suggested place of origin of this haplogroup by stating:

The new topology here reported has important implications as to the origins of the haplogroup E-P2. Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E-M215 trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E-P2 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested, and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa. [2]

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Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] LOL. There is no evidence of a Qahtani civilization. This is a civilization based on oral tradition.

The Tihama civilization on the otherhand is supported by archaeological research.

The Sumerians, who were Kushites, spoke a language related to the Niger-Congo and Dravidian languages. The Akkadians entered Mesopotamia after the Kushites, just like the Semites entered (South) Arabia after the Tihama (C-Group) or Kushite people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. The Semites probably originated in Africa and migrated into these areas.

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quote:

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Circular reasoning in syntheses involving multiple disciplines
has to be avoided. The criteria and methods for a given discipline
usually have to be given equal weight, and their results should be
considered independently before an effort at synthesis is made. For
example, a hypothesis about the place of origin of a language family
or phylum must be based on linguistic evidence and methods, not on
DNA or craniofacial patterns. Likewise the place of origin of a
particular genetic variant or lineage has to be based on genetic
data, principles, and models, not on archaeological data. The locale
of origin of a particular culture or archaeological industry is subject
to analyses based on methods and theory that are specific to the relevant
disciplines. The only exception to these “rules” is if a calculated
date of origin of a genetic variant found in a given locale predates
the existence of people in that place. Although the notion of population
ties together both biology and culture broadly conceived, it cannot be
claimed that continuity in one necessarily means continuity in another.
If the question is about physical population migration, then the same
conclusion reached from every discipline independently would seem to
best support the claim (Rouse 1986). However, it cannot be said absolutely
that there was no movement if all lines of evidence do not point in the same
direction.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
While the exclusion of Semitic and Berber from the Negro-Egyptian phylum makes people talk. The most important results of Obenga's work (built on Homburger's work) and other people like Jean-Claude Mboli is the linguistic genetic unity of most of the current African languages.

All African languages from the Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharans, Ancient Egyptian, Cushitic and Chadic family share the same common ancestor language called Negro-Egyptian. That's the most important conclusion.

That is, for example, if you speak Yoruba, you can't be surprised to find some common words in Somali, Wolof, Zulu and Ancient Egyptian languages derived from a common ancestor language.

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
While the exclusion of Semitic and Berber from the Negro-Egyptian phylum makes people talk. The most important results of Obenga's work (built on Homburger's work) and other people like Jean-Claude Mboli is the linguistic genetic unity of most of the current African languages.

All African languages from the Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharans, Ancient Egyptian, Cushitic and Chadic family share the same common ancestor language called Negro-Egyptian. That's the most important conclusion.

That is, for example, if you speak Yoruba, you can't be surprised to find some common words in Somali, Wolof, Zulu and Ancient Egyptian languages derived from a common ancestor language.

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where is the origin of Arabic?

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Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
The word tifinagh or tifinigh is widely thought to be a feminine plural cognate of Punic, through the feminine prefix ti- and Latin Punicus; thus tifinigh would mean "the Phoenician"
Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3000 BP. Louali & Philippson (2003) .


Tukuler you will find this book chapter interesting if you were not aware of it already:

Some thoughts on the Origin of the Libyco-Berber Alphabet | Robert Kerr


http://www.academia.edu/450751/Some_thoughts_on_the_Origin_of_the_Libyco-Berber_Alphabet

scroll down a bit for the English

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The Libyco-Berber ionscriptions are found from the Fezzan to Niger Bend. The authors of this writing were the Manding speaking people who lived in these areas that's why they can not be read in the Berber language.



.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
I never knew about population genetics evidence for linguistics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
If Berbere is as Obenga proposes unconnected to
Negro-Egyptien then my guess is the Maghreb for
its birthplace. Fits in with the Atlas' domain
relative isolation from much of the continent
before the Holocene (unless its derivation's
in Eneolithic times).

K.Williams of the Afrisian school posited Berber
phylum origin in Sudan (Gharb Darfur). Where do
others place Berber's beginnings?

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
why do literally ALL Berber speakers have E-M81?

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
From http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-8478.html

Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th
century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs
and Arab influence from the north. The growing Arab presence pressed
the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther
south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th
century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those
remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Talk of coincidences, seems DJ not only had Keita
(2010)'s admonishment but also that Blench article
perculating in mind at the same time I did. MY last
post was on stuff up till Friday and I only read
later stuff Sunday evening.

I was wondering about reposting the Blench exerpts
(a lot of work) here since bumping them where they
are'd be counterproductive. He acknowledges the
Guarage lump in the imported from Arabia Ethiopian
Semitic gravy but I still haven't found any
exaustive work picking Gurage apart as to local
or import origins -- just that it is Semitic and is
an outlier to every and all other Semitic subphyla
and their further lects.


Just like Mushabian moved Levantward from Egypt
other peoples overran Daryal Gorge into Levant.
I don't know about all Semitic but biblical Hebrew
is riddled with non-Semitic lexicon.

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lyinass,:

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Please explain ....

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Talk of coincidences, seems DJ not only had Keita
(2010)'s admonishment but also that Blench article
perculating in mind at the same time I did. MY last
post was on stuff up till Friday and I only read
later stuff Sunday evening.

I was wondering about reposting the Blench exerpts
(a lot of work) here since bumping them where they
are'd be counterproductive. He acknowledges the
Guarage lump in the imported from Arabia Ethiopian
Semitic gravy but I still haven't found any
exaustive work picking Gurage apart as to local
or import origins -- just that it is Semitic and is
an outlier to every and all other Semitic subphyla
and their further lects.


Just like Mushabian moved Levantward from Egypt
other peoples overran Daryal Gorge into Levant.
I don't know about all Semitic but biblical Hebrew
is riddled with non-Semitic lexicon.

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As to your last paragraph above, I have read that the non-Semitic lexicon found in Hebrew as well as Aramaic is Hurrian in origin. I've even read from several sources that certain customs of Levantine folks like the status of sisters being as prominent in a man's family as his wife (echoing Sarah) and establishing covenants with deities are all Hurrian in nature.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lyinass,:

eat shyt

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

• •English ……Hattic …..Egyptian…….. Malinke (Mande language)
  
  powerful ……ur………. wr'great,big' ………fara
  
  protect…….. $uh……… swh …………………solo-
  
  head …………tup ………tp ……………tu 'strike the head'
  
  up,upper….. tufa ………..tp……………… dya, tu 'raising ground'
  
  to stretch put… pd ………pe,……………….. bamba
  
  o prosper …….falfat …..-- …………………..find'ya
  
  pour ……………duq …….---………………….. du 'to dispense'
  
  child …………..pin………,pinu………………… den
  
  
  Mother ………..na-a ………--…………………….. na
  
  lord …………….sa ………..--………………………. sa
  
  place ………….-ka………… -ka

• Dravidian Hurrian
  
  a a
  
  -kku -ikka
  
  imbu impu
  
  
  
  There are analogous Dravidian and Hurrian terms:
  
  
  
  English Hurrian Dravidian
  
  mountain paba parampu
  
  lady,woman aallay ali
  
  King Sarr,zarr Ca, cira
  
  god en en
  
  give tan tara
  
  to rule irn ire
  
  father attai attan
  
  wife,woman asti atti

• Hurrian Sanskrit
  
  Mi-it-va Mitra
  
  Aru-na Varuna
  
  In-da-ra Indra
  
  Na-sa-at-tiya Nasatya

• English Hurrian Sanskrit Tamil
  
  One aika eka okka ‘together’
  
  Three tera tri
  
  Five panza panca añcu
  
  Seven satta sapta
  
  Nine na nava onpatu
  
  
  
  Other Hurrian terms relate to Indo-Aryan:
  
  
  
  English Hurrian I-A Tamil
  
  Brown babru babhru pukar
  
  Grey parita palita paraitu ‘old’
  
  Reddish pinkara pingala puuval
  
  
  
  English Mitanni Vedic Tamil
  
  Warrior marya marya makan, maravan

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

.


The anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that East Indian people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.Dravidian languages belong to the Niger-Congo family.

In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10
(1976, pp.23-27:24. ).

Genetics as noted by Mait Metspalu et al writing in 2004, in “Most extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans” http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26

can not tell which group first entered India. Mait Metspalu wrote
_________________________________________________________________
Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among the present day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more “autochthonous” than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent (p.9).
________________________________________________________________________


B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.


B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .


Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).

There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1
) .

There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .


There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race (RaceandHistory,2006).

Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.

Linguistic Evidence

1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.

1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.

1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians

1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.

1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.

1.8 As a result of the linguistic evidence the Congolese linguist Th. Obenga suggested that there was an Indo-African group of related languages. To prove this point we will discuss the numerous examples of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between the Dravidian group: Tamil (Ta.), Malayalam (Mal.), Kannanda/Kanarese (Ka.), Tulu (Tu.), Kui-Gondi, Telugu (Tel.) and Brahui; and Black African languages: Manding (Man.),Egyptian (E.), and Senegalese (Sn.)
_________________________________________________________________

code:

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COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS

ENGLISH    DRAVIDIAN      SENEGALESE        MANDING
MOTHER        AMMA          AMA,MEEN          MA
FATHER    APPAN,ABBA       AMPA,BAABA         BA
PREGNANCY   BASARU          BIIR              BARA
SKIN          URI          NGURU,GURI         GURU
BLOOD       NETTARU         DERET             DYERI
KING       MANNAN          MAANSA,OMAAD        MANSA
GRAND      BIIRA           BUUR                BA
SALIVA     TUPPAL          TUUDDE              TU
CULTIVATE  BEY            ,MBEY            BE
BOAT       KULAM           GAAL                KULU
FEATHER    SOOGE           SIIGE               SI, SIGI
MOUNTAIN    KUNRU          TUUD                KURU
ROCK       KALLU           XEER                KULU
STREAM     KOLLI           KAL                 KOLI

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code:

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English                Senegalese            Dravidian
body                   W. yaram                 uru
head                   D. fuko,xoox              kukk
hair                   W. kawar                 kavaram 'shoot'
eye                    D. kil                   kan, khan
mouth                  D. butum                 baayi, vaay
lip                    W. tun,F. tondu          tuti
heart                  W. xol,S. xoor           karalu
pup                    W. kuti                  kutti
sheep                  W. xar                   'ram'
cow                    W. nag                   naku
hoe                    W. konki                
bronze                 W. xanjar                xancara
blacksmith             W. kamara               
skin                      dol                   tool
mother                 W. yaay                   aayi
child                  D. kunil                  kunnu, kuuci
ghee                     o-new                   ney

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Hurrian was not an Indo-European language..
.

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Who said it was??

I'm not even going to bother addressing your other claims which are nonsense.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
If Berbere is as Obenga proposes unconnected to
Negro-Egyptien then my guess is the Maghreb for
its birthplace. Fits in with the Atlas' domain
relative isolation from much of the continent
before the Holocene (unless its derivation's
in Eneolithic times).

---

Outside of the linguistic evidence out there, this is why I refuse to even entertain Obenga. What you just said is the only scenario that would make his exclusion of Berber work, and its so weak that it leaves me scratching my head.

If anyone wondered why, THIS is why I'm not wasting my time researching the merits of a linguistic theory that is at odds with literally all the data out there.

How can Berbers have Berber specific Y-chromosomes that diverged off of Afrasan signature Y chromosomes >4ky ago, speak languages that diverged around the same time, but yet, the unique-to-Berber language family is supposed to be uncorrelated to the >4ky old unique-to-Berbers uniparentals (E-M81 and E-V65)?

If the Berber tongue originated with pre-existing stone age populations in the Magreb, why do literally ALL Berber speakers have E-M81? Did East Africans manage to find them all one one by one, and cause this y chromosome to become dominant as many times as there are Berber speakers with domninant E-M81 y chromosomes? If it was passed on to them by their predecessors in the Maghreb, why do the most ancient branches of this family originate in the North East (e.g., Tuareg, Awdjilah), consistent with Afrasan?

This is one of those theories that you know must have been penned down/revived by someone who was cut off from relevant research, because nothing independantly corroborates it. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
^It seems to me to be the case that most Cushitic speakers formed late (their signature lineage, NRY E-M78 [E-V32], was introduced to the Somali population ~4-5kya), this post dates the proposed proto Niger Congo presence in Eastern Africa, since Niger Congo speaking agriculturalists were already present in West Africa by then. This may explain why Cushitic speakers may have little E-M2 and cannot be used to gauge E-M2 in at least some of the earliest Afrasans. The earliest E-M78 in Northern Africa (E-V68), which dates to ~18kya, is old enough for some Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan branches to have interacted with early Niger-Congo speakers. The Kordofan region or somewhere close would be a good candidate region for this scenario due to the presence of languages related to Niger Congo in the region. The drawback is that Kordofanian populations carry little E-M2, if the Nuba are any indication. Wherever it occurred, these E-M2 admixed Nilo-Saharan speakers and Afro-Asiatic speakers could then have met again along the Nile after the wet Saharan phase.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Such conjectures again shows just how invalid the Negro-Egyptien phylum

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Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
What exactly are "Afrasan signature Y chromosomes"
and where can I learn more about them as well as
other genetic linguistic signatures you mentioned
previously like for Cushitic?

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quote:

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We observe the highest proportion of the “Nilo-Saharan AAC” in the southern/central Sudanese populations (Nuer, Dinka, Shilluk,
Nyimang), with decreasing frequency from northern Kenya (e.g. Pokot) to northern Tanzania (Datog, Maasai). From K = 5-13, all Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad cluster with west-central Afroasiatic Chadic speaking populations (Fig. S13). These results are consistent with linguistic and archeological data, suggesting a possible common ancestry of Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from an eastern Sudanese homeland within the past ~10,500 years, with subsequent bi-directional migration westward to Lake Chad and southward into modern day southern Sudan, and more recent migration eastward into Kenya and Tanzania ~3,000 ya (giving rise to Southern Nilotic speakers) and westward into Chad ~2,500 ya (giving rise to Central Sudanic speakers)( S57, S60, S62, S69). A proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7,000 ya from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have caused many western Nilo-Saharans to shift to Chadic languages (S 91). Our data suggest that this shift was not accompanied by significant Afroasiatic gene flow. 14 Analyses of mtDNA provide evidence for divergence ~8,000 ya of a distinct mtDNA lineage present at high frequency in the Chadic populations and suggest an East African origin for most mtDNA lineages in these populations (S92).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Only linguistic evidence can disconfirm Obenga.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:


[QUOTE] all Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad cluster with west-central Afroasiatic Chadic speaking populations (Fig. S13).

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:


Obenga can be discarded for the simple fact alone that it is impossible for all these populations/linguistic units (Nilo-Saharan, Afrasan, Niger Congo) to split off in the terminal pleistocene (if I'm not misunderstanding Amun). Obenga supporters will run into so many problems defending this supposedly >10kya phylum, that they might as well just say upfront say that they're throwing all the multi-disciplinary data that informs African Anthropology in the wind, that in some way shape or form implies coalescence ages larger than >10kya coalescence dates for the populations included within Negro-Egyptien (which is basically all multi-disciplinary data). Even if I'm misunderstanding Amun where the age of Negro-Egyptian is concerned (i.e., that Obenga's proposition for this clade is older), its a known fact that modern linguistic phyla don't go back much further than the Terminal Pleistocene. Its a wrap.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
The last underscores to your post make me recall
the primary importance of women in Kel Tamasheq
(Tuareg) language and literature. Tifinagh is a
woman's thing mostly for poetry and correspondance. So I expect U6 weight more so than E-M81 for the Berber phyla.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
U6 is paleolithic in Maghreb al Aqsa
with U6b'c nearly limited to the Maghreb while U6a
and derivatives show up as far afield as Kenya.
Could prehistoric Magreb al Aqsa women diagonally
cross to East Africa and later return to the Maghreb carrying U6a1 and E-M81 mates whom they taught their Obenga proposed non-Afrisian Berber?

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted November, 2006 by alTakruri:
Genetic conclusion are drawn from living populations.
High frequency African specific lineage relevant DNA
in TaMazgha is mtDNA U6 and NRY E3b-M35.


U6a has a coalescence ranging between 41-14kya per HVSI sequences.
It has a west to east expansion making it a strong candidate for an
Aterian female base.

U6a1 (19-7.5kya) with an east to west expansion is at the tail end
of the Aterian, all throughout the Mouillian, and most likely signals
the Capsian which arose first in East Africa though named after Gafsa,
the site in North Africa where archaeologist first dug up relics of the
industry. This is a time period of proto-Afrisan and proto-NiloSaharan.
A language ancestral to both (namely proto-Wider Area Of Northern
Affinity) may have been carried from east to north Africa.

The other U6 subgroups (U6b, U6c, and U6b1) occur almost exclusively in
western populations and by HVSI coalescence dating would appear during
all the pleistocene industries. The exception being U6b1 which is strictly
holocene while U6c's coalescence covers both the late pleistocene and
early holocene. On their return to the U6a birthplace, U6a1 would encounter
the already in place older U6b and U6c indigenous to that region.


E3b-M35 has a coalescence ranging between 46-27kya per average squared
difference. It probably originated in eastern Africa. Highest frequencies are
in the "Khoisan" and Oromo. It could be the male base of the Aterian that
was later absorbed and displaced.

E3b1-M78 (33-25kya), derived from E3b-M35, also most likely arose in
eastern Africa and fits the Aterian time frame. By late expansion, it may
also signal the Mouillian which is known to be related to the Halfan
industry in the Nile Valley. It has high frequencies in Ethiopia, Sudan,
and Kenya.

E3b2-M81 (11-6kya), also an E3b-M35 derivative, likewise first appeared
in eastern Africa. It's more in line with the Capsian and Neolithic Saharan.
The first Wider Area of Northern Affinity languages was at this
particularly proto-NiloSaharan. Afrisan had begun splitting so that by the
lower limit proto-Tamazight was born. Certain languages in the Wider
Area of Southern Affinity may have started in the Sahara along with
languages not truly fitting any strict classification system. This
subclade is considered to be the Amazigh marker.

code:

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INDUSTRY          MORPHOLOGY                PREDOMINANT MARKERS
                                            mtDNA     NRY
                                                               
                                                                
ATERIAN           "Boskopoid"?              *U6a*     *E3b-M35*              
                                                      ?E3b1-M78?
                                                                 
MOUILLIAN         "PaleaMediterranean"       U6a       E3b-M35  
                                             U6b      *E3b1-M78*
                                             U6c                
                                            *U6a1*               
                                                                
CAPSIAN/ORANIAN   "AfricanMediterranean"     U6a       E3b-M35
                  "African Alpine"           U6b       E3b1-M78
                                             U6c      ?E3b2-M81?
                                             U6a1       
                                            *U6b1*                 
                                                                  
NEOLITHIC SAHARAN  meld of the above        as above   as above 
                   Saharo-Sudanese                    *E3b-M81*            

---

.


The Aterian was highly concentrated in the Atlas but had an outreach that
included the Sahara and Libya. Its practioners may've resembled "Khoisan".
Archaeological finds show the Mouillian "PaleaMediterraneans" occupied the
littoral from Libya to Morocco. Oranian finds are also scattered over this
same whole area. Capsian "AfricanMediterranean" relics are all inland away
from the coast. The Neolithic Sahara industry of the Saharo-Sudanese replaced
the earlier industry but not the morphologies. Apparently only a few pioneer
Saharo-Sudanese ventured toward the coast introducing technologies similar
to the so-called Khartoum "Mesolithic". The neolithic transfer was moreso
cultural than demic. All of these Maghrebi industries and NRY haplogroups
show links with the Nile Valley. The mtDNA haplogroups mostly suggest
local Maghreb al Aqsa continuities.

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
From http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-8478.html

Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th
century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs
and Arab influence from the north. The growing Arab presence pressed
the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther
south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th
century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those
remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

One of the problem is that you're only concentrating on the fact that the Negro-Egyptian phylum doesn't include Berber or Semitic. But the most important aspect of Obenga's study is that it includes almost all E and E-P2 carriers.

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
I didn't know the Berber branch only goes back to
2000 BCE. What did all the north coastal people
Sirte and further west speak? Did all those
populations undergo language shift since the
Maghreb proper mtDNA evinces trans-Holocene
continuity?

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

One of the problem is that you're only concentrating on the fact that the Negro-Egyptian phylum doesn't include Berber or Semitic. But the most important aspect of Obenga's study is that it includes almost all E and E-P2 carriers.

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Yet is Obenga's phylum a linguistic one or a genetic one? It seems to be the former yet you keep identifying it with the latter. Why is that??

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posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
You must be joking. When Swenet do it, it's a signature and you're happy when I show the likely Negro-Egyptian signatures you're not happy. As I just said, geneticists just confirm genetically what Obenga found out linguistically. It's just a good thing that multidisciplinary approach also confirms Obenga's analysis. You're too much concentrating on the fact that Berber and Semitic languages are not included in the phylum (only one chapter in Obenga's works and a few mentions elsewhere is devoted to the subject). The real important aspect of Obenga's works, inspired by Homburger, is the fact that most major African language families are descended from the same ancestral language spoken somewhere in the region of Sudan/Ethiopia and East Africa a long time ago.

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posted                         

• Afrocentric Comparative and Historical Linguistic Methods
  
  In this paper we explore the linguistic methods used by Afrocentric linguists to document the relationship between Black African languages and their sister languages in Africa and Asia.
  
  
  
  By
  
  Clyde A. Winters
  
  
  
  Abstract
  
  In this paper the author reviews the authentic historical and linguistic methods traditionally employed by Afrocentrists. We learn that Africalogical research has long been researched by Afrocentric scholars; and that up until the 1930's the history of African civilizations and people was the "preserve" of Afrocentric scholars .
  
  
  
  There are two schools of Africalogical research: the African-American school (AAS) of Afrocentric research (Dubois, 1915, 1946) , and the French-speaking African and Afro-Caribbean school (FAACS) of Afrocentricity (Diop, 1974). The AAS was concerned with historical research while the FAACS has made linguistic research their domain of intellectual inquiry. A third school of Afrocentric researchers we will call pluridiscipli-narians led by Anselin (1982,1993) and Winters (1985, 1989,1994) combine both historical and linguistic methods to explain the heritage of African people.
  
  An Afrocentric view of African history is written from the perspective of the Africans themselves. This type of writing on African history is centered on the role of Blacks/ Africans in Africa, and the fact that there was, and is a history of Africa.
  
  The central element in all Afrocentric research is the fact that ancient Kemet (or Egypt) was a Black African civilization. As a result of this theoretical base, most of the arguments made by contemporary Afrocentrists including the :
  
  (1) African origin of Egypt (Delany, 1879); and
  
  (2) African origin of civilizations in Europe and
  
  Asia (Johnson, 1971 pp.388-389; Dubois, 1946 p.122)
  
  were first made over a hundred (100) years ago by members of the AAS Afrocentrist group.
  
  Eurocentric School
  
  The major spokesman for the Eurocentric view of African history is Dinesh D'Souza (1995). Mr. D'Souza, a non-historian, linguist, etc., has made his mission in life the destruction of Multiculturalism, and Afrocentricism in particular, additions to the curriculum of American schools. D'Souza (1995 p. 360) believes that "...Afrocentrism fundamentally remains a pedagogy an initiation into a new form of black consciousness and also into manhood". Given this Eurocentric view of Africalogy, D'Souza (1995) sets out to prove that slavery was not racist; that segregation was established by paternal whites to protect the former slaves; and especially that "Egypt was a multiracial society" (p. 367) dominated by white skinned Egyptians, and that the only time that Blacks/Africans ruled Egypt, was during the Nubian dynasty (p. 368).
  
  African-American School
  
  The AFROCENTRIC historical method was developed over a hundred years ago. African-American researchers, including R. B. Lewis, Light and Truth, collected from the Bible and the ancient and modern history, containing the universal history of the Colored and Indian race from creation of the world to the present (Boston 1844); George W. Williams, History of the Negro race in America from 1619 to 1880...and an Historical sketch of Africa (New York 1982) and Rufus L. Perry, The Cushite or descendants of Ham (Springfield, Mass. 1893) used these methods to present a realistic picture of the African past.
  
  As you can see from the above titles most of these early works were based on material found in the Bible. According to the Bible, Blacks are the descendants of Ham who had four sons: Kush, Mizraim (Egypt/Kemet), Phut (Punt) and Canaan. these sons represent founders of the first world civilizations, such as Sumer, Phonecia, Arabia and Hatti. This recognition of the African origin of civilization in Africa and Mesopotamia was soon confirmed by the archaeological discovery of Sumer and Egypt.
  
  The AAS Afrocentrists developed a systematic group of principles for critically examining and presenting the body of source material related to the history of African people. Scholars such as W.E.B. DuBois, J.A. Rogers and Carter G. Woodson honed the AFROCENTRIC historical method to fine a edge. Woodson and DuBois made sure to employ the historical method in their careful research into the African past. And Rogers was a master of many languages which he used to gain insight into the history of African people from the numerous European sources he used to write the multivolume series Sex and Race.
  
  Knowledge about African people, especially the ancient history, has been hard to come by, because much of the "authentic" history of African people has often been published in non-English sources. This has meant that Afrocentric historians recognized the term document to include both written accounts about things said and done in the past, and also archaeological records. This broad interpretation of document has meant that these historians have been concerned with primary documents produced by eyewitnesses (e.g., the classicists of Greece and Rome) and also secondary sources related to archaeological research and the classical literature.
  
  The AAS Afrocentrists have mainly been concerned with the history of African people, in Africa and the world. It was the African American scholars who dominated the field of African historiography from the nineteenth century up into the 1930's (Dubois ,1971 p. 373).
  
  The founders of the Afrocentric schools of research have been careful to use many primary sources. These sources were written by the major classical authors (Johnson 1971) : Homer (DuBois, 1946; Diop 1974), Herodotus (DuBois, 1946 p.121; Diop 1974) and Diodorus Siculus (DuBois 1946, p.122; Diop 1974), and long ago were authenticated and are recognized as credible.
  
  The writings of the classicists have been important in establishing a foundation for the claims of the Afrocentrists because they have temporal proximity to many important events in the history of African people. Moreover, although the documents of the classicists were often biased, they report in clear prose the African role in the rise of civilization and culture in Africa and Asia and give internal credibility to their statements about African people.
  
  The major African American Afrocentrist such as J.A. Rogers, and W.E.B. DuBois have usually been able to read one or more foreign languages. There has been a need for learning a foreign language by members of the AAS because much of the literature dealing with African and Black civilizations has been written in French , Greek and German rather than English. Moreover, familiarity with a foreign language allows the Afrocentrist to check carefully all translations to insure that the documents they use in their research has internal credibility.
  
  Afrocentrists have traditionally been immensely concerned with contemporary archaeological finds related to African people. This emphasis on archaeological research is evident in the work of DuBois (1915,1946), and Woodson (1936,1949).
  
  The major secondary sources used by the early Afrocentrists include the work of Johnston (1910), Frobenius (1913), Boas (1911), Arnold L. von Heeren and Volney. DuBois (1915, p.147)notes that although many of these sources were used "none of these authors write from the point of view of the Negro as a man, or with anything but incidental acknowledgement of the existence or value of history".
  
  The first trained historian-sociologist to examine the African past was Dr. W.E.B. DuBois. In 1915, Dr. DuBois published the little book called The Negro. This book served as inspiration for many later AFROCENTRIC historians. This book, as obvious from the title, was concerned with the African both at home and abroad. The Negro, opened the field of AFROCENTRIC historiography. In this book DuBois collected the most recent materials on African affairs up to 1915, and presented a comprehensive whole, of the different elements of African history.
  
  In 1946, DuBois published The World and Africa. The World and Africa, was an important book in AFROCENTRIC research because in it DuBois outlined a world history on the Black races. In this book DuBois (1946, pp. ix-xi) makes it clear that he admired the work of many of his contemporaries such as J.A. Rogers and Hansberry, authors who had began their quest to discover the African past after reading The Negro.
  
  DuBois (1946) used up-to-date references to prove his thesis that Blacks founded civilization in Kemet (Egypt , pp.98-100), Africa and Arabia (pp.176-194). His discussion of the raise of Kemet and the importance of the Nubians and Thebaid group of upper Kemet in maintaining Egyptian traditions (DuBois 1946, pp. 104-108) is very well written. In addition, many scholars look to Bernal (1987, 1991) as the premier text on the falsification of Black history due to slavery and Eurocentricism, but in The World and Africa, DuBois pointed out clearly the role of European slavery and greed as the main motivating factors for the lack of truth in writing African history (DuBois, 1946 p.80).
  
  As a result of The Negro and The World and Africa, DuBois left a great deal of material that stimulated many Black scholars who read them, to become interested in the history of the African/Black race.
  
  In our opinion an influential pioneer historian and anthropologist researching the African past was Joel A. Rogers. James Spady has observed that Rogers' research encompasses three major areas: (1) the antiquity of Blacks; (2) how, when and why races mix; and (3) inspirational and biographical sources of great Black men and women. Rogers' research has deeply influenced all of my research.
  
  Rogers made it clear that Afrocentrists must (1) visit European museums where many artifacts of Africa which were stolen are now housed; (2) learn to speak and read more than one European language, so ; (3) the scholar should seek primary documents which must be reinterpreted to present the truth to the world. The greatest books written by Rogers include the best selling 100 Amazing Facts about the Negro, which gave the reader over 100 facts about the history of African people; and especially Sex and Race, a three volume series of books which discuss the world history of Blacks from ancient times to our modern age.
  
  Another AAS historian was Drusilla D. Houston of the state of Oklahoma. Houston's major work was the book Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire. In this book she shows that the civilizations of southern Arabia, Greece, India and Persia were founded by Africans from the Nile Valley and beyond. Houston had hoped to write another volume of this book but she died before it was completed.
  
  The fourth most important AAS africalogists after DuBois, Houston and Rogers was Leo Hansberry. Hansberry was born in 1894, and was the first historian to teach African studies at a major University in the world. Dr. Hansberry became interested in African history after reading DuBois'The Negro. this book led Hansberry to decide to learn more about Kush and ancient Ethiopia.
  
  In 1922, Hansberry went to Howard University in Washington, D.C., where he taught courses in African history. He never received proper support from the University, but he did influence many African-American and African scholars who studied under him. Professor Hansberry died in Chicago on November 3, 1965.
  
  Carter G. Woodson (1936,1949) following DuBois (1915) legitimized the writing of African history. In his premier books on Africa, Woodson (1936, 1949) illuminated the civilizations of Africa, and the rich cultural heritage of African people. Woodson is also credited with founding the Journal of Negro History, which published numerous articles on African history.
  
  John J. Jackson, was a self-trained anthropologist. He taught at universities on the eastcoast and in the midwest, including the Northeastern Illinois Center for Inner City Studies in Chicago, now called the Kemetic Institute.
  
  Jackson's most popular book is Introduction to African Civilization. In this book Jackson used old and new sources to discuss the role of Blacks in civilizations around the world. In his book he makes it clear that Africa and her people are the founders of world civilization.
  
  Jackson presents striking evidence that Indo-Europeans have played a major role in the destruction of African centers of civilization. He cites for example, the Romans partial destruction of the library of Alexander, and its later total destruction by fanatical Christians in A.D. 389. Prof. Jackson also discussed the Romans burned down the library of Carthage which contained 50,000 volumes in 146 B.C. And in Spain, Europeans destroyed great libraries of the Moors.
  
  By the 1960's Africalogical historical research, formerly the "preserve" of African Americans (DuBois, 1971 p.373), was beginning to be dominated by Europeans. The only AFROCENTRIC historian to come on the scene during this period was Dr. Joseph Ben-Jochannan.
  
  Ben-Jochannan is an historian and cultural-anthropologist. His major works are Black Man on the Nile, African Origin of the Major Western Religions, and Africa: Mother of western civilization. In these books Ben-Jochannan provides the reader with a wealth of information on the African origin of Egypt, and the African influence on many common civilizing elements found in Western societies today.
  
  French Speaking Afrocentrists
  
  Most of the contemporary dynamic historians and anthropolo-gists writing from the AFROCENTRIC perspective and making important original contributions to Africalogical research in Africa and the Caribbean speak French. These scholars were heavily influenced by the work of Diop.
  
  The FAACS Afrocentrists have their roots in Negritude. Aime Cesaire (1956) originated the term Negritude, which is a cultural expression of "Blackness". In a poem written during World War II, Cesaire coined the phrase "African personality". It is the idea of an original and unique personality peculiar to Africans, that manifest the foundation Afrocentrism in the African diaspora where French is spoken.
  
  Leopold Senghor of Senegal became a major proponent of Negritude. Senghor argued that the African emotional quality to life is different from the materialism of Europeans.
  
  Leopold Senghor not only accepted the idea of an "African Personality", he also helped develop the idea of "Africanity". Africanity is a word which relates to the entire African continent's cultural heritage (Fanon, 1967; Loventhal, 1972).
  
  Negritude has usually been described as "passive" by many social critics (Loventhal, 1972 p.283; Fanon, 1967 p.45). But one of the followers of this movement, Chiekh Anta Diop used the idea of "Africanity" to add a historical research component to negritude, that explained and discussed the African origin of Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilization. Diop (1974, 1981) proved the African origin of Egyptian civilization and made it a major component of negritude.
  
  Diop established an important base of Africalogical research at the University of Senegal. Until Diop died in 1986, he was a major advocate of the continuity of African history from Egypt to the medieval African civilizations. He is one of the founders of the African Historical Science and Philosophy of history first practiced by DuBois and Rogers. Like J.A. Rogers, Diop called for scholars to stop dabbling here and there, and become well trained , pluridisciplinary specialists.
  
  Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
  
  Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people.
  
  There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991).
  
  Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered (Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991).
  
  In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics (Diagne 1981). Onomastics is the science of names (Diagne 1981). Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop, 1978, 67).
  
  In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used "analyses acculturaliste" or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
  
  This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences( Hock 1988; Crawley 1992; Bynon 1978; Lord 1966; Robins 1974).
  
  Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative linguistic method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the Proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African. To reconstruct a Proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences.
  
  Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
  
  LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
  
  The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
  
  Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant (Diagne, 1981,p.238). The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
  
  African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items (Diagne,1981, p.239). In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages (Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1988, 1992a, 1992b, 1993,).
  
  The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa (Winters 1994). Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language Diop, 1987, 1991; Niane, 1984).
  
  The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985; Anselin 1992a, 1992b). This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
  
  This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the continuity or stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
  
  First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time (pp.153-154).
  
  In Nouvelles recherches sur l'egyptien ancien et les langues Negro-Africaine Modernes, Diop wrote that:
  
  The permanence of these forms not only, constitute today a solid base...upon which...[we are to re-]construct diachronic African [languages], but obliges also a radical revision of these ideas, a priori...on the evolution of these languages in general (p.17).
  
  There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used Glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms.
  
  Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself (Labov 1965, 1972). Meillet (1926, p. 17) wrote that:
  
  Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
  
  Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages.
  
  Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop's major area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection. These sound laws have been further elaborated by Anselin (1989, 1992, 1993) and Obenga (1988, 1993b).
  
  Diop has noted that the reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements. In Obenga (1988) the Paleo-African terms for cattle, goat, sheep, rams and the monkey were reconstructed.
  
  Diop has contributed much to the extra-African linguistic relationship. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and he illustrated the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root. This is not surprising because Edward Blyden found evidence that the Arabic writing system was created by an African from the modern country we call Egypt.
  
  The major student of Diop is Obenga (1974, 1978,1995). Th. Obenga is a linguist and historian. He has done remarkable work in the reconstruction of Paleo-African and a brilliant study of the philosophical views of the Egyptians.
  
  Formerly the major work of Obenga was L'Afrique dans l'Antiquitie . In this book Th. Obenga discussed the African origin of Egypt and the cultural and linguistic unity of Blacks world wide.
  
  Obenga (1978a, 1978b, 1988) has shown the unity of ancient and modern African languages and the close relationship of ancient Egyptian to his own language Mbochi. And in The Peopling od ancient Egypt and the Decipherment of the Meroitic script, Obenga and Diop give a superb discussion of the reality of an African origin of Egyptian civilization.
  
  Obenga (1978b, 1988) concentrate on two areas of linguistic research. Firstly, he has shown striking affinities between Egyptian and Mbochi. Secondly, Obenga (1988, 1993) has been concerned with the reconstruction of Paleo-African and the shared grammatical features of Egyptian and Black African languages.
  
  In 1993, Obenga published Origine commune de l'Egyptien ancien du copte et des langues Negro Africaines modernes. This book provides a detailed discussion of the historical links between African and Egyptian languages. In Obenga (1993) African languages are divided into three Superfamilies the Black African-Egyptian , the Berber and the Khoisan languages.
  
  Obenga maintains that the Egyptian-Black African family is classified into the following subfamilies: Egyptian, Cushitic, Tchadian, Nilo-Saharan and the Niger-Kordofanian families. Most of these subfamilies of Egyptian-Black African were first grouped by Greenberg (1963).
  
  Obenga (1993) in addition to providing a detailed account of the Egyptian-Black African genetic connections also provides keen insight into the so called Afro-Asiatic family of language.
  
  He proves that the Egyptian language is closer to African languages than the non-African languages grouped in the Afro-Asiatic family of languages. Recently, this theme was also taken up by Tounkara (1989), he explained how Diop's theory of an Egyptian-Black African language connection has more linguistic and historical support than the Afro-Asiatic hypothesis.
  
  Gilbert Ngom (1986) has done a fine examination of the correspondence between the Bantu, Duala and the ancient Egyptian language. Ngom (1986) elaborates on the Black African-Egyptian phonology. He also makes it clear that Egyptian is closer to the Black African languages, than the Berber and Semitic languages in syntax, morphology and phonology (Ngom, 1986 pp.48-52). Anselin (1989, 1993) provide an outstanding discussion of the affinity between the Egyptian and Black African verbal systems.
  
  The most interesting research inspired by Diop is in the area of semantic anthropology. Using linguistic data Anselin ( 1989, 1992, 1993) and Pfouma (1987) have compared Black African and Egyptian terms to illuminate the common royal heritage and religion shared by Blacks. Winters (1985a, 1985d, 1989, 1991) also used this method to confirm the unity between the African, the Dravidian, the Elamite and the Sumerian languages.
  
  Dr. Diop has called on Africalogical researchers to become pluridisciplinarians. A pluridisciplinary specialist is a person who is qualified to use more than one discipline, for example history, linguistics and etc., when researching aspects of African history and Africalogy in general. Two major Afrocentric pluridisciplinarians are Alain Anselin (1993) and Clyde Ahmad Winters (1989, 1994).
  
  Anselin is an AFROCENTRIC pluridisciplinarian researcher. Anselin is the Director of Studies at the Laboratory of Research the A.M.E.P., at Fort-de-France Martinique. He has written three important AFROCENTRIC works: La Question Peule, Le Mythe d'Europe, and Samba and numerous articles.
  
  In Samba, Alain Anselin illustrates how the corpus of Egyptian hieroglyphics explains not only the Egyptian civilization, but also the entire world of the Paleo-Africans. In this book following Winters (1985, 1991) he makes it clear that Kemetic civilization originated in the Fertile African Crescent (Anselin, 1992 pp.20-22). And that Black African and Kemetic civilization at its origination was unified from its foundations in the Sahara, up to its contemporary manifestations in the language and culture of Black Africans.
  
  In La Question Peule, Anselin again moves back to his theme of unity for Egyptian, West African and Dravidian languages, political traditions and culture. The unity between Dravidian and African cultures was also examined by Th. Obenga (1973), Anta Diop (1974), Cheikh Tidiane N'Diaye and Winters (1980a, 1985c, 1985d, 1986c, 1991a).
  
  Anselin (1982, p.190) provides a detailed discussion of the " Black Ageans". There is also a fine examination of the affinities between the Agean and Dravidian civilizations (Anselin , 1982 pp.135-149).
  
  Another pluridisiciplinarian Afrocentrist is Clyde Ahmad Winters. He is the only African-American attempting to confirm the theories of Diop in relation to the genetic unity of the Egyptian , Black African , Elamite, Sumerian and Dravidian languages. Winters' is mainly concerned with the unity of ancient old and new world Black civilizations (Winters 1985a,1985d, 1989) and decipherment of ancient Black writing systems used by these Africans (Winters 1985b). This led Winters to learn many foreign languages including French, Tamil , Malinke/Bambara, Chinese , Arabic, Otomi and more.
  
  Winters has used Diop's genetic model in his research which combines anthropological , linguistic and historical methods to confirm that the center for the rise of the originators of the Egyptian and Manding civilizations (1977, 1979b, 1986a, 1986f, 1983), the Magyar or Hungarian civilization (1984a, 1986e); the Dravidian civilization (1980a, 1981d, 1985c, 1985d 1986c, 1986d, 1986e, 1988a, 1989b) and the Sumerian and Elamite civilizations was the Fertile African Crescent of the highland regions of Middle/Saharan Africa (1984, 1985a, 1991, 1994). In addition he has explained how Blacks founded civilization in the Americas (Winters 1977a, 1981d, , 1983b, 1986); and East and Southeast Africa (1979, 1979a, 1980b, 1981a, 1981b, 1981c, 1983c, 1983d, 1986c, 1987b).
  
  An important finding of Winters is that the ancestors of the Dravidian and Manding speaking people appear to have left Africa at the same time around 2600 B.C. (Winters 1985c). And that these people founded civilization in Europe , Elam, India and ancient China (1991a).
  
  Winters' (1988, 1989c,1990, 1991a), like Diop before him has also discussed (1) the African substratum in European languages; (2) explained the conflict between African people and Indo-European speaking people ; and (3) the loss of early African settlements in Europe to the contemporary European people due to natural catastrophes and wars after 1000 B.C. This research provides valuable source material for the elaboration of the African influence on European languages and the languages of East and Central Asia (Winters, 1989b, 1990, 1991b).
  
  During the research of Winters' (1985b) it was discovered that the Proto-Saharan people used a common writing system. Winters (1983) found that he could read the ancient inscriptions left by these people in the Sahara dating to 3000 B.C. A comparison of the Manding language and the Elamite, Sumerian and Dravidian languages confirmed there genetic unity.
  
  The evidence of a genetic relationship between the Manding languages, which was used to decipher the earliest Proto-Saharan writings and other languages spoken by the founders of civilization in India and Mesopotamia, led to the assumption that the writing systems used by these ancient founders of civilization could be deciphered. The confirmation of Diop's theory of linguistic constancy made it possible for to confirm this hypothesis and read the common signs used to write the Harappan script ( Winters, 1982b, 1984b, 1984d, 1984e, 1985b, 1987;2013a), the Minoan script (Winters,2013c)and the Olmec script (Winters, 1977a, 1977b, 1979b;2013e).
  
  The most important finding of Winters (1984,2013d) was the cognate language of Meroitic. Using the evidence presented by the Classical sources that the Kushites ruled empires in Africa and Asia, Winters (1984, 1988, 1989) illustrated that the cognate language of Meroitic, was the Tokharian language spoken by the Kushana people of Central Asia (Winters,2013f). Using the Kushana/Tokharian language many Meroitic inscriptions have been deciphered (Winters, 1984,1988, 1989, 1995a, 1995b,2013d, 2013f).
  
  Another important Afrocentrist is Molefi Asante at Temple University. Asante has been active in the field of Afrocentric studies for over twenty years. He is also founder, at Temple , of the major center of academic Afrocentrism outside of the University of Senegal when Diop was living.
  
  In numerous articles and books Asante ( 1988, 1990, 1987) has laid out the foundations of Africalogical research . Much of Asante's theoretical foundations of Afrocentrism is found in his book Kemet, Afrocentricity, and Knowledge. In this book Asante gives keen insight into the role of Egypt in the creation of an Africalogical humanities. He also shatters many of the long held myths perpetuated by Europeans that Africans failed to invent writing, and strong highly organized nation-states and empires.
  
  But he does not stop here in making a case for Africalogical research. He also explains and discusses European attitudes toward race and ethnicity in the United States.
  
  In addition to arguing persuasively for the establishment of Afrocentrism "as a legitimate response to the human condition" (Asante, 1990, p.5), Asante has written a fine introductory text on Egypt and other ancient African nations that can be used in Upper grades and High School. This text is called Classical Africa. In this timely book Asante explains the rise and fall of many African civilizations from ancient Egypt to the Western Sudani kingdom of Songhay.
  
  In conclusion, africalogical research, is not new, it has been conducted by Afro-Americans for over 150 years. African-American Afrocentrists dominated the field of African-American and African history from the 1870's up to the 1930's(DuBois 1971).
  
  Beginning in the 1940's "established" Euro-American writers became interested in African-American history; and in the 1960's as many African nations became independent other European scholars began to dominate the interpretation and writing of African history. These scholars began to decide on the criterions that make the "proper" research of ancient African history.
  
  By the 1970"s many Afrocentrists in French speaking Africa began to assert themselves, and write highly readable and intelligent prose on the African origin of Egypt and the genetic unity of the Black African and Egyptian languages. This group of researchers were complemented by scholars like Ben Jochannon and C.A. Winters. Today the research efforts of both the FAACS and AAS afrocentrists continue to confirm the great history of African people from a falsificationist perspective.
  
  
  
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  Winters,Clyde Ahmad. (December, 1981/ January 1982a) "Mexico's Black Heritage", The Black Collegian,pp. 76-84.
  
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  Yurco, F. (1989). "Were the ancient Egyptians Black?", Biblical Archaeological Review 15, no5 , pages 24-29,58.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
What exactly are "Afrasan signature Y chromosomes"
and where can I learn more about them as well as
other genetic linguistic signatures you mentioned
previously like for Cushitic?

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... as requested, here it is:

E-M35, signature of Afrasan

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quote:

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For the 'Cushitic' signature, see Tiskkoff 2009:

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quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Only linguistic evidence can disconfirm Obenga.

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This is not true.

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quote:

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.. what appears to be pure denial of the existence of evidence that Berber and Semitic are related to Afrasan languages.

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quote:

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... cross-disciplinary data can be used to [] at least bring into question something proposed by data from other disciplines.
. . . .
... theories were proposed using one discipline, and abandoned/confirmed using findings in another.

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quote:

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... its a known fact that modern linguistic phyla don't go back much further than the Terminal Pleistocene.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

Thanks will add to my Tamazight folder!

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
The word tifinagh or tifinigh is widely thought to be a feminine plural cognate of Punic, through the feminine prefix ti- and Latin Punicus; thus tifinigh would mean "the Phoenician"
Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3000 BP. Louali & Philippson (2003) .


Tukuler you will find this book chapter interesting if you were not aware of it already:

Some thoughts on the Origin of the Libyco-Berber Alphabet | Robert Kerr


http://www.academia.edu/450751/Some_thoughts_on_the_Origin_of_the_Libyco-Berber_Alphabet

scroll down a bit for the English

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa.

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I actually have this book and it is excellent. Here is Mboli's reconstruction and new language models.



It is totally different from what you will read in most linguistic literature. He keeps Obenga's Negro-Egyptian, but Proto-Negro-Egyptian breaks up into two dialects: bere and beer. These are based on how the vowels are treated by each group, as well as the prefixes and suffixes. Excellent work.

He also reaffirms something I've been saying on this very forum for a number of years now, that Coptic is not the last stage of Egyptian. It is a totally different language.

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
In addition to Obenga's new book,L'égyptien pharaonique: une langue négro-africaine, mentioned in this thread by Asar Imhotep. Here's another book which also built on his pioneer work:




Origine des langues africaines: essai d'application de la méthode by Jean-Claude Mboli

I don't have the book, only read some excerpt off the web, but after explaining the comparative methodology, debunking Greenberg classification among other things. He use the comparative method to compare Middle Egyptian, Copte, Sango (his native language), Zande, Hausa, Somali. Proving that they are genetically linked.

Combined with Obenga's new book in which he compares Ancient Egyptian with Niger-Congo family languages (and Bahr El-Ghazal language which I don't know their family). This should provides another fundamental entry into African comparative linguistic and history.

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