Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media Keith W. Crawford Accepted: 28 June 2021
Populations in Egypt and Kush/Nubia with less stereotypical Negro craniofacial features, such as narrower nasal apertures, narrower face, and less lower facial protrusion (alveolar prognathism), were classifed as Caucasians instead of recognizing this array of traits as a variant African phenotype adapted to the Nile valley over many millennia (Keita, 2004). Importantly, some of the traits that were used to distinguish “races,” such as soft tissues (nose, lips), hair texture, and skin pigmentation, cannot be determined from the skeleton. Illustrating these points, Ahmed Batrawi (1935) shows a skull of an X-Group Nubian who has “typical negro hair” but a face “not typically negro” (Fig. 1). How might this skull have been classifed had the hair not been attached? This skull captures the complexity and elasticity of population variation in the Nile valley.
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehuti, before you answer Doug realize he is not just making the comment as it appears on face value. He is making the comment from the opinion that "Nubian" is an illegitimate bogus category to begin with, that there are no Egyptian type people and Nubian type people, they are all one and the same, just of different nationalities
I understand that but he is wrong to assume there are no differences between Nile Valley populations as well.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If it is a wig, then the argument that he represents a so-called "Nubian" is bogus. Because those claims are based on the hair being natural...
The hair is natural human hair but it is a wig since the mummy's scalp was clean shaven underneath. However, his label as 'Nubian' was not based on the wig alone but also his facial features (pronounced prognathism) as well as the very dark complexion of his painted portrait.
quote:..Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations...
The second sentence above is correct enough but it contradicts the previous sentence. Of course there is distinction between populations in the Nile Valley. This has been been established by cranial morphological studies of the various ancient ethne that lived along the Nile Valley. Some were more closely related than others, hence predynastic A-Group Nubians and Naqada II resembled each other more than they did others. You can't have diversity without difference and indeed there were differences even among Egyptians such as between Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawy (Upper Egyptians).
quote:Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted the dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs. I mean if we go by that standard, then Ahmose Nefertari was "nubian" because she was depicted most often with jet black skin and also has tight braids on her mummy......
The jet-black skin was symbolic of her divine status as a great goddess incarnate and was not naturalistic. Even if her hair is curly, such hair type which is the common hair type of many Egyptians is not the same ask kinky or coiled hair type.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
'Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media' Keith W. Crawford Accepted: 28 June 2021 Populations in Egypt and Kush/Nubia with less stereotypical Negro craniofacial features, such as narrower nasal apertures, narrower face, and less lower facial protrusion (alveolar prognathism), were classified as Caucasians instead of recognizing this array of traits as a variant African phenotype adapted to the Nile valley over many millennia (Keita, 2004). Importantly, some of the traits that were used to distinguish “races,” such as soft tissues (nose, lips), hair texture, and skin pigmentation, cannot be determined from the skeleton. Illustrating these points, Ahmed Batrawi (1935) shows a skull of an X-Group Nubian who has “typical negro hair” but a face “not typically negro” (Fig. 1). How might this skull have been classified had the hair not been attached? This skull captures the complexity and elasticity of population variation in the Nile valley.
Good find, Lioness!
The converse can be said about 17th dynasty king Seqenera Tao.
An X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (1980) James E. Harris & Edward F. Wente His (Seqenenre Tao's) entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination...
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Examples of different hair from Mortons Crania Aegyptiaca. One can wonder how much those mummies hair have changed since they died?...
Well according to Joann Fletcher and other experts the most common type of mummy hair was curly hair--loose curls and occasionally tighter curls-- as well as wavy hair, though coiled hair does occur albeit at seldom.
blackincairo.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-got-my-herr-did-at-egyptian-salon.html Yes, you read that correctly! I let a non-black woman do my hair! For those of you who haven't heard, hair is a big deal to black woman. Because our hair texture is so unique, it's difficult to find non-black people that can properly maintain it. Even shampooing black hair can turn terribly wrong and end up in tangles if you don't know what you're doing! I've been observing the texture of Egyptian women's hair and the technique they use to straighten it. Like black women, the textures range from tightly coiled, coarse curls to loose waves. Most of the women go to the salon weekly to get their hair flat-ironed straight. A few black female expats have recommended that I try the Egyptian salons instead of my futile battle with the creamy-crack (permanent relaxers). Because all the women I've known who regular visit Egyptian salons have natural, non-chemically processed hair, I was hesitant to take their advice. Relaxed hair is more fragile than hair in its natural state.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Straightening hair dates back as far as ancient Egypt, where flat iron plates were used to straighten unruly hair. A method which more than not resulted in burns – ouch!
The desirable straight hairstyle was popular throughout many periods in history.
quote:"Egyptian ideals of beauty are still of straightened glossy hair, in a way that’s consistent with our history – Nefertiti achieved straight hair with a constant wig," says Claire (my sister). "But natural Egyptian hair varies hugely," she points out, "the mix of ancestry means our hair can be coarse, tight curls, loose curls, or even fairly naturally straight. Afro hair has its own culture and its own styles, but Egyptian hair doesn’t have its own identity in the same way, so I think going 'natural' in Egyptian culture has less to do with emulating Caucasian ideals and more to do with personal preference."
quote: Eman El-Deeb, a young Egyptian woman, decided to leave her country in 2016. But it wasn't for education, work or a partner. It was because of her hair.
The 26-year-old has big curly hair that is admired in Spain, where she currently lives.
But in Egypt, where many women seek to emulate European ideals of beauty, she felt like her hair was a curse.
"The decision to leave was a very sad one for me. I never imagined I'd migrate," says Eman.
Noran Amr, 32, has been heat-free for a year. Last month she attended a wedding with her hair naturally curly for the first time.
Situated in one of Egypt's most affluent neighbourhoods, The Curly Studio - unlike most Egyptian salons - works on appointment basis only. It receives more than 30 clients a week, mostly young women.
quote:"The trend is very popular, especially among millennials," says the studio's owner, 33-year-old Sara Safwat.
Even Eman felt the change.
"In April 2017, while I was visiting Egypt, a taxi driver told me 'your hair is very nice.' At first I thought he was being sarcastic. But then I realised he was being sincere.
"That was the first positive comment about my hair that I had ever heard in Egypt."
^^^^ This is the magic of ADOS & AFroPUNK at work...
quote:HE SCIENCE OF ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HAIR AND WHY IT SOMETIMES LOOKS, RED, LIGHT-COLOURED AND STRAIGHT
There are many myths about ancient Egyptian hair and most of them have been perpetuated by Hollywood and Zahi Hawass. Many Egyptians did not shave their heads and there are new studies which blow out of the window many myths about these ancients - they clearly suffered from the same problems and desires as those with nappy hair today.
THE EMBALMING PROCESS WAS ADAPTED TO PRESERVE THE HAIRSTYLE
Researchers have found that the Egyptians gelled and dyed their hair, braided it and wore elaborate hair styles including wigs, hair extensions and hair pieces. The embalming process was adapted to preserve the hairstyle.
Natalie McCreesh, an archaeological scientist from the KNH Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the University of Manchester, UK and her colleagues studied hair samples taken from 18 mummies. The oldest is around 3,500 years old but most were excavated from a cemetery in the Dakhleh Oasis in the Western Desert and date from the Greco-Roman times, around 2,300 years ago.
The researchers believe that this fat-based hair gel was used by the Egyptians to mould and hold the hair in position to enhance appearance, since some of the deceased that had been mummified naturally in the desert also had fats in their hair. When the mummified using embalming chemicals, the undertakers seem to have taken special care to retain the deceased's hairdos, as they used different chemicals on different parts of the body. 'It is evident that different materials were used for different areas of the body,' the researchers write. 'The hair samples from the Dakhleh Oasis were not coated with resin/bitumen-based embalming materials but were coasted with a fat-based substance.'
The mummies had all different kinds of hairstyles depending on the age, sex and presumed social status. Researchers have previously discovered objects in Egyptian tombs that seem to be curling tongs, so they most likely would have been used in conjunction with the hair produces to achieve different styles. There's also speculation that the Egyptians used beeswax on their hair.
Queen Ahmose-Nofretari
Elderly lady from tomb KV35, hair colouring and texture most likely [henna on grey] - styling and age of mummy
Hair straightening is really EFFECTIVE and long lasting in dry desert climates...
Also hair straightening is absolutely pointless in tropical environments..
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
A couple of examples of "Nubian" hair on human remains and on a statue
"Nubian" skulls with hair
The Archer king, Meroitic bronze statue from c 2nd century BC, found on the site of Tabo, Argo Island, in North Sudan. Today in the National Museum in Khartoum.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 3058 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ "Nubian" is not an ethnic term but a geographic one. There were many Nubian peoples. The skull on the left is that of a Meroitic Kushite and the skull on the right is "X-Group" which is the later Noubadian people that founded the Ballana Kingdom in the early Medieval Era.
The point of this thread however which is found in the first page is that there were Nubians groups much more ancient who had the SAME loose, curly to wavy hair as the Egyptians such as Neolithic Nubian groups like the A-Group.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ "Nubian" is not an ethnic term but a geographic one. There were many Nubian peoples. The skull on the left is that of a Meroitic Kushite and the skull on the right is "X-Group" which is the later Noubadian people that founded the Ballana Kingdom in the early Medieval Era.
I put Nubian within citation marks just to mark that I meant skulls and a statue from the area commonly referred as to Nubia.
Sometimes it is hard to find good references to pictures. The Meroitic skull I have also seen referred to as being from Kerma on the net. Maybe someone here has the original publication from where the photo comes?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 3058 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Kushite is the typical ethnonym (Egyptian Keshli) for the dominant Nubian group in Upper Nubia. The culture had 3 periods-- Kerman, Napatan, and Meroitic-- named after the capital cities of each period so there can be some confusion hence Meroitic skull from Kerma. There is some debate as to what ethnic changes or modifications there were to the Kushites especially since Kush before Egyptian domination of the New Kingdom was in fact an empire that had hegemony over various Nubian peoples as well as others in not only the Nile Valley but adjacent regions.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
The Gebelein Man "Ginger" was a member of Naqada II Culture which metrically are closest to A-Group Nubians who also had the same type of hair.
"Ginger" is an interesting case since apparently the guy died a violent death at age range 18-22. So apparently some conflict was going on at that time.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I understand that but he is wrong to assume there are no differences between Nile Valley populations as well.
The point was that having a tightly curled wig was not a distinction between "Nubians" and other Nile Valley Africans. There are plenty of mummies with tightly curled wigs or depictions of populations with Afro hair. So we cannot sit here and say that this is a marker of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. It isn't.
That is why I posted the image of the mummy of Ahmose-Nefertari who is almost always depicted as Jet black. So going by that logic, then she too is a so-called "Nubian".. Somehow folks keep skipping over that part.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If it is a wig, then the argument that he represents a so-called "Nubian" is bogus. Because those claims are based on the hair being natural...
The hair is natural human hair but it is a wig since the mummy's scalp was clean shaven underneath. However, his label as 'Nubian' was not based on the wig alone but also his facial features (pronounced prognathism) as well as the very dark complexion of his painted portrait.
The point is that nothing about using human hair to make wigs in dynastic burials is "Nubian". That is what I mean by bogus. Plenty of other mummies have similar wigs. Again, Ahmose Nefertari is a notable example. So the context of my statement is using those things to call Maiherpri "Nubian" are totally arbitrary and inconsistent. Again, being consistent would mean Ahmose-Nefertari was also "Nubian".
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:..Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations...
The second sentence above is correct enough but it contradicts the previous sentence. Of course there is distinction between populations in the Nile Valley. This has been been established by cranial morphological studies of the various ancient ethne that lived along the Nile Valley. Some were more closely related than others, hence predynastic A-Group Nubians and Naqada II resembled each other more than they did others. You can't have diversity without difference and indeed there were differences even among Egyptians such as between Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawy (Upper Egyptians).
I meant the distinction of only "Nubians" having black skin, curly hair or prognathism. Those kind of distinctions do not exist in the Nile Valley as a marker of "Nubian" ancestry. Somehow now you are forgetting the Atlas of Royal Mummies by Wente and Harris where so many of those mummies also have prognathism. And then there is the lineage of Seqenenre Tao who is also mentioned in the same atlas:
quote: In 1980, James Harris and Edward F. Wente conducted another series of X-ray examinations on New Kingdom Pharaoh's crania and skeletal remains, which included the mummified remains of Sequenre Tao. The analysis in general found strong similarities between the New Kingdom rulers of the Seventeenth Dynasty and Eighteenth Dynasty and contemporary Nubians with slight differences.[13]
So by that logic, the early 18th dynasty along with Ahmose Nefertari were Nubians then.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted the dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs. I mean if we go by that standard, then Ahmose Nefertari was "nubian" because she was depicted most often with jet black skin and also has tight braids on her mummy......
The jet-black skin was symbolic of her divine status as a great goddess incarnate and was not naturalistic. Even if her hair is curly, such hair type which is the common hair type of many Egyptians is not the same ask kinky or coiled hair type.
Again, that is an arbitrary distinction because not all Sudanese or East Africans or Horn Africans have tight kinky hair either. But the bigger point here is the jet black depictions of Nefertari exclude any identity as so-called "Nubian" despite the fact that this dynasty originated in the South with Southern allies (so-called "Nubians"). But somehow in this context, being depicted as jet black and having a jet black mummy with prognathism and African braided wig doesn't mean "Nubian". And there is nothing that labels Maiherpri as "Nubian" when we have the entire early 18th dynasty being shown as having the closest affinity to so-called "Nubians" yet somehow you don't want to label them as such. It is an arbitrary distinction based on lookership not science. Just like it is absurd to argue that black skin being divine is separate from black skin and the southern origins of dynastic culture and renewal to begin with...... How absurd.
Posts: 8940 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ The distinction is not "arbitrary" at all but based on actual population distinctions. The peoples of the Nile Valley are NOT one homogeneous group. Even Egyptians are not a single people with Mehuwi of the Delta and Shemawi of the Valley. The former tend to have longer straighter hair while the latter have shorter curlier hair. And yes Kushites tend to have tighter coiled hair compared to Shemawy so there is nothing arbitrary about it.
The same can even be said for skin color. The Egyptians, especially Shemawy depicted themselves with chocolate brown skins while they depicted the Keshli (Kushites) with ebony dark skin. I've already cited the example of Maiherpri above whose very dark skin tone is different from most Egyptians. You seem to have a problem with the idea of ethnic differences. Yes even in the Horn of Africa there are phenotypic difference based on ethnicity. People in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia tend to have tighter coiled hair than southern Ethiopians and Somalis. In fact many Cushitic speakers like Oromo and Somali have phrase (jareer) meaning "hard-haired" for those Africans with coiled hair as opposed to their own "soft haired".
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
A somewhat sensitive question is whether pubic hair has been found on any Egyptian mummies? Maybe that hair was never dyed but could show the natural hair coloration of the individual? I ask because in at least one Danish bronze age burial they found such hair (which had the same color as the hair on the person's head).
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 3058 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The distinction is not "arbitrary" at all but based on actual population distinctions. The peoples of the Nile Valley are NOT one homogeneous group. Even Egyptians are not a single people with Mehuwi of the Delta and Shemawi of the Valley. The former tend to have longer straighter hair while the latter have shorter curlier hair. And yes Kushites tend to have tighter coiled hair compared to Shemawy so there is nothing arbitrary about it.
It is arbitrary when the same "rules" that are used to label someone as "Nubian" in one case are not applied consistently to others with the same kinds of features. And I have pointed this out specifically referring to the fact that the entire dynastic culture originated in the South to begin with. Not to mention the documented history of the Middle and New Kingdom originating in the SOuth with southern allies and auxilliaries. Meaning there has always been population flow from the South into the dynastic kingdom and the diversity of the dynastic era is not unique or separate from other parts of the Nile. ALL of the Nile Valley has always been diverse as you yourself have pointed out in this very thread. Yet here you are claiming certain features as so called exclusively "Nubian". Which is why I am saying this is an arbitrary way of defining "Nubian".
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The same can even be said for skin color. The Egyptians, especially Shemawy depicted themselves with chocolate brown skins while they depicted the Keshli (Kushites) with ebony dark skin. I've already cited the example of Maiherpri above whose very dark skin tone is different from most Egyptians. You seem to have a problem with the idea of ethnic differences. Yes even in the Horn of Africa there are phenotypic difference based on ethnicity. People in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia tend to have tighter coiled hair than southern Ethiopians and Somalis. In fact many Cushitic speakers like Oromo and Somali have phrase (jareer) meaning "hard-haired" for those Africans with coiled hair as opposed to their own "soft haired".
And all of that variation is not unique to the dynastic kingdom and you can see it all over North East Africa is my point. I am not sure why you are sitting here and trying to act like you don't understand the point. MOST mummies from the Nile Valley are literally coal black in color. And there are plenty of depictions of very dark brown people in the dynastic kingdom and not just Ahmose Nefertari. Like I said, this idea that Maiherpri is "Nubian" simply because of dark paint and kinky hair when many populations from the dynastic era are depicted with such features but arent also called "Nubian" makes it arbitrary. Because again, Ahmose Nefertari has more evidence to support her so-called "Nubian" ancestry than Maiherpri does, including being depicted as jet black, but somehow those same rules don't apply.
quote: Queen Ahmose-Nefertari was arguably the most adored woman in Egyptian history.
Nearly 50 private tombs in the West Bank necropolis at Luxor carry images of the queen; the first date from her lifetime, and they continue through to the end of the Ramesside Period, some 500 years later!
It is supposed that Ahmose-Nefertari and her son, King Amenhotep I, founded Deir el-Medina—Egypt's most elite address—on the west bank of the Nile at Luxor. Living in this village was by invitation only, for this settlement was purpose built to house the royal tomb builders and their families.
Deir el-Medina was a gated community, complete with guards who were probably tasked with keeping the workers in, as much as keeping trouble out. These men, after all, knew the king's most precious secret: the location of his "House of Eternity" in the Valley of the Kings.
This wooden statuette of Ahmose-Nefertari came from Deir el-Medina and was possibly a votive offering, used in asking for the queen's divine favour. Today it is usually housed in the collection of the Museo Egizio, in Turin.
Right now, Ahmose-Nefertari's little statue is also part of an exhibition at the Rijksmuseum in Leiden; "Queens of Nile", looks at some of the most celebrated queens of the New Kingdom.
quote:Archaeological studies always seek for understanding history and draw right pictures about the life in the past in the different civilizations. Consequently, varieties of sciences are applied in these studies to extract the historical information. Hence this study investigated hair samples that were taken from four royal mummies with the aim of obtaining reliable information about the materials used in embalming, health status of these mummies, their age, and hair color that affects its composition. A variety of analytical techniques were applied in this study; digital microscope, polarizing optical microscope, environmental scanning electron microscope coupled with energy-dispersive X-ray unit, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy, gas chromatography, and Raman spectroscopy analysis. The results showed the significance of hair in biomonitoring health status and determining age. Besides, it was proved that mastic resin has been used in embalming as early as the Second Intermediate Period especially for royal mummies.
posted
^ I already cited that paper in the previous page when I brought up Seqenenre's skull and hair.
Also, I already addressed the ridiculous arbitrary use of 'Egyptian' vs. 'Nubian'. I'm talking about about real ethnic differences between Nile Valley populations. Nubian or Nehesy, as the Egyptians called them, is a generic geographic term. There were many different groups of Nehesy. Similarly even Kemet (Egypt) is a political construct largely comprising of Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawi (Upper Egyptians) with phenotypic stereotypes between the two-- Mehuwi are lighter complexioned with longer straighter hair while Shemawi are darker skinned with shorter, curlier hair.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I already cited that paper in the previous page when I brought up Seqenenre's skull and hair.
Also, I already addressed the ridiculous arbitrary use of 'Egyptian' vs. 'Nubian'. I'm talking about about real ethnic differences between Nile Valley populations. Nubian or Nehesy, as the Egyptians called them, is a generic geographic term. There were many different groups of Nehesy. Similarly even Kemet (Egypt) is a political construct largely comprising of Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawi (Upper Egyptians) with phenotypic stereotypes between the two-- Mehuwi are lighter complexioned with longer straighter hair while Shemawi are darker skinned with shorter, curlier hair.
No, you are being arbitrary like I said. Again, the culture, cosmology and people of the dynastic Nile Valley came from the South, which means being a citizen of KMT is a nationalist identity not an ethnic identity. And there is no proof of Maiherpri being a so-called "Nubian". The entire middle Kingdom is full of documented people of so-called "Nubian" ancestry, including various pharoahs and officials named Nehesy, tombs featuring coal black archers from Kush, the prophecy of Neferti, wives of Mentuhotep who have so-called "Nubian" features, etc. Not to mention the rise of the New Kingdom also being from the South and southern Allies who also helped renew the country, with another female queen who is depicted with so-called "nubian" features, symbolizing origin and renewal of the Nile from the south, as a flow of culture, gods and most importantly people. So to sit up here and argue that Maiherpri is a so-called "Nubian" while downplaying the exact same characteristics for these other people is what I am calling "arbitrary". Because there is more evidence for Ahmose Nefertari having southern origins than Maiherpri but somehow you refuse to apply the same label of "nubian" to her. And because that southern flow of populations was there from the start, those features are simply a part of the diversity that was common in the dynastic era. Therefore to argue this was some kind of special, rare or unique case is simply arbitrary and hypocritical. Especially, when nothing about Maiherpri is labeled as so-called "Nubian" and he is considered a high ranking member of the dynastic kingdom, not some "foreign" so-called "nubian". I am just saying be consistent instead of using this arbitrary distinction which didn't exist in ancient times. It is the same issue of Egyptology trying to parse out how the legend of Horus Behdet talks of he culture starting in the South in "Ta-Seti" in order to avoid the obvious implication and association with so-called "Nubia". If Maiherpri could be a high status official of so-called "Nubian" ancestry, then so could Ahmose Nefertari, various rulers named Nehesy, Amenhemet of the prophecy of Neferti and many others..... And this isn't simply about features as you have already shown in this very thread that all so-called "Nubians" weren't jet black with super kinky hair. Yet here you are arguing for this as some how a unique marker of so-called "Nubian" identity. Even going so far to show an image of a person with an Afro as being from the Upper Nile, which contradicts the point that these features were so-called "Nubian". So like I said, you are being arbitrary and inconsistent following Egyptology's arbitrary and inconsistent definition of "Nubia".
Ashayet, Queen of Mentuhotep:
quote: Ashayet's stone sarcophagus (JE 47267) contained a wooden coffin (JE 47355) and a wooden statue was also located in the tomb; they are now found in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.[1][6][7] Her stone sarcophagus is particularly well known for the exterior relief and painted interior. The painted interior was copied as tempera on paper facsimiles by Charles K. Wilkinson in Gurna in 1926.[2] The facsimiles are now found in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, but were never published.[2] In the interior decoration of two Medjay women, Federtyt and Mekhenet, are depicted and named as part of Ashayet's household. It has been posited that Ashayet herself was a Nubian elite woman living as queen in Egypt.[2]
Again, labeled as so-called "Nubian" with no literal evidence other than how they are depicted.
Same thing with other so-called "Nubian" wives of Mentuhotep:
quote: The queen was also depicted on reliefs in the funerary temple of her husband Mentuhotep II. These depictions are today heavily destroyed, but it seems that she appeared in a scene showing a row of royal women. On the preserved fragments she is shown behind queen Kawit. Her title in the depiction is King's Beloved Wife.[3] Shrine of Kemsit at the Mortuary Temple of Mentuhotep II in Deir el-Bahari.
Kemsit may have been of Nubian origin, as indicated by depictions that show her face as black or dark pink.[4]
So if that is the case why is Ahmose-Nefertari not also considered as so-called "Nubian" then? Obviously this is a contradiction and arbitrary and inconsistent rules of lookership.
quote: Seqenenre Tao, also known as Seqenera Djehuty-aa, Sekenenra Taa, or Sequenenre Tao II (after his father), ruled over the last of the local Theban kingdom in the 17th Dynasty of the 2nd Intermediate Period. Seqenenre means “Who Strikes like Re,” and Tao means “brave,” which may have been a name given to him based on his bravery in life.
He was probably the son and successor of Senakhenre Ahmose and Queen Tetisheri. He would have risen to power either in 1560 to 1558 B.C.E. He had multiple wives including Ahmose Inhapy, Sitdjentui, and Ahhotep I. Through Ahmose Inhapy, he had a daughter Ahmose Henuttamehu, and through Sitdjehuti, he had another daughter named Ahmose. But it was Ahhotep I who bore the next two kings of Egypt, Seqenenre Tao’s sons Kamose and Ahmose I. She also gave birth to Ahmose Nefertari, Ahmose Meritamon, Ahmose Nebetta, Ahmose Tumerisy, Binpu, Ahmose Sapair, and Ahmose Henutemipet, many of whom were married to one of their brothers.
His rule was anywhere from 5 to 3 years, so this left almost no time for monumental building. He did build a new mudbrick palace at Deir el-Ballas. When this site was excavated, a large amount of Kerma-ware pottery was found. Kerman Nubians either traded heavily with the Egyptians or were residents in the palace. This also may indicate that they were allied with the Egyptians in the upcoming battles.
quote: The contexts of the Kerma ceramics at Tell el-Dab’a and Deir el-Ballas, along with the more isolated examples in Egyptian cemeteries, indicate that these specific vessels were of special interest to Egyptian audiences. This raises the question of why these ceramic forms were being selected and consumed? I would suggest the most likely explanation stems from the important functions and roles of both wares in Kerman commensality practices. 34 The direct association of these ceramics forms with foodways has been noted before, largely in relation to using the pottery as potential evidence for the presence of settled Kerman populations in Egypt. 35 The reason for this is largely based on ethnographic analogy on how foodways are resistant ethnic and cultural markers. 36 However, as noted by Bourriau, there is no real indication in many of these settlements and graves of Kerman identities being expressed. 37 Notably absent are the contracted Kerman burial positions, placement of the body on beds, any sacrificed animals or people, and the presence of any other Kerman material culture. While some of the graves do seem to exhibit some of these Kerman features, such as burial 694 at Abydos, these are exceptional examples. 38 There is also evidence that these ceramic forms may have been locally made in Egypt. Fuscaldo has pointed out that one of the Nubian ceramics at Tell el-Dab’a appears to be actually Egyptian imitations of Nubian cooking wares.39 Aston and Bietak have also highlighted how some of the Tell el-Dab’a ceramics are locally made.40 This indicates Egyptian attempts to replicate Kerman or Nubian ceramics.
It is very unlikely that the contexts of these Kerman ceramics can solely be interpreted as instances of settled Kerman populations. Much of this ceramic material has been interpreted through traditional culture historical models and stereotypes of Nubian/Egyptian relations, particularly through the stereotype of Nubian "mercenaries" and "servants."41 However, these interpretations limit the diversity of interactions that this material may document, and largely interpret them as ethnic markers. In addition, the archaeological contexts from the burials are not conducive to interpreting all of the burials with Kerma ceramics as ethnic markers. They certainly might indicate blurred cultural identities, but there is a lack of further material and funerary practices that would suggest any strong Kerman cultural identity being expressed. The domestic contexts of the cooking and beaker vessels at Tell el-Dab’a and Deir el-Ballas are clearer indicators of direct interactions between Egyptians and Kermans at these sites, as these have been either found in domestic and discard contexts, indicating a clear use of the vessels. However, the question of who is using these vessels is still unclear. At the least the material suggests a mixed usage by both Kermans and Egyptians. Given these contexts I think it is appropriate and logical to expand our interpretation of this material beyond solely ethnic markers of migrants.
posted
^ Doug, you are again fabricating an argument I never made to argue against. Yes Kmt IS a national construct which I have just proven in my post above. Kmt is a national construct while Nhsy (Nubian) is a geographic one. Neither are ethnic but ethnic differences did indeed exist. Which Middle Kingdom rulers were Nubian? The dynasties of the Middle Kingdom came from 1st nome of Ta-Seti which is NOT Nubian but Egyptian. The wives of Mentuhotep were indeed Nubian as Yatunde has shown in her thread here which Dr. Solange Ashby shows that Mentuhotep's wives like Ashayet were Wawati (C-Group) Nubians. As for Maiherpri, note I never said he was Nubian for certain only that it was probable if not likely because portraits hint at it. If you're not aware after the 18th dynasty conquest of Kush, some members of the Kushite royal houses were adopted in the pharaonic house. So yes that would explain why Nubians can be buried in the Valley of the Kings. Ahmose Nefertari and her family are from Upper Egypt NOT Nubia, that they may have Nubian relations is only a conjecture again based solely on certain phenotypic traits.
Doug, again you have failed to prove that ethnic distinctions are simply arbitrary and not based on stereotypes based on such distinctions. The Nile Valley peoples are heterogeneous so distinctions can be made. It's like saying there were no differences between Mesopotamians even though they too were diverse or say differences between ancient Balkans like the Greeks vs. their northern neighbors. Get over it.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
All of the painted depictions of Ahmose-Neferari I've seen are of her appearing with Ahmose as deities in the tombs of nobles
In real life she may have not been either this light color or jet black color but we don't know
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Virtually all of Ahmose-Nefertari's portraits in jet black color are post-humous and symbolic of her status as a great goddess (ntjrt wrt). I'm still trying to find out why or how she gained this status but it may very well be connected to her being the first 'God's Wife of Amun'.
While she was alive, Ahmose-Nefertari was portrayed no different from other Egyptian women either in symbolic yellow tone or in more naturalistic dark brown tone that's likely the same as her husband Ahmose I who was her own full sibling.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ what you have above are two posthumous deified votive statuettes of Ahmose Nefertari from Deir el-Medina, 19th-20th dynasty. The top one has paint on the face is very bad condition apparently brown. The darker patches seem to be the raw wood of which the paint has chipped off. The lower one's face is entirely raw wood so we cannot determine if there was any intention that that raw wood is supposed to be analogous to her skin tone. The lower one has some remnant paint on the headdress so ether might have been paint on the face at some point. The one Doug posted at the top of the page is another one of these Deir el-Medina votives and the face is painted black. Here it is again
In the Theban region – and especially in the village of Deir el-Medina – Ahmose-Nefertari is mentioned or depicted in at least 50 private tombs and on a large number of objects which are datable from the reign of Thutmose III to the end of the 20th Dynasty.[10][22]: 201–2
In the tomb of Tetyky (TT15), the queen is depicted wearing a brow ornament with two uraei instead of a double gazelle.[23][24]: 11 According to Eaton-Krauss, this is the "earliest occurrence of the double uraeus, which is a standard part of queenly regalia thereafter."[25]
Michel Gitton acknowledges Norman de Garis Davis' estimate that Ahmose-Nefertari is depicted with dark complexion (black) four times more often than light complexions (red and yellow).[24]: 74–5 He indicates that his own survey suggests a much lower figure although he could not provide a general figure as he could not himself verify the colors on site. He also noted there are other cases in which she is shown with a pink, golden, dark blue, or dark red skin color.[24]: 74–5 As observed by Gardiner, in some instances Ahmose-Nefertari's skin is blue,[26] a popular color symbolizing fertility, birth, rebirth and life and usually used to depict water and the heavens.[27]
In 1981 Gitton called the issue of Ahmose-Nefertari's black color "a serious gap in the Egyptological research, which allows approximations or untruths".[24]: 2 He pointed out that there is no known depiction of her painted during her lifetime (she is represented with the same light skin as other represented individuals in tomb TT15, before her deification); the earliest black skin depiction appears in tomb TT161, circa 150 years after her death.[24]: 11–12, 23, 74–5 [1]: 125 Barbara Lesko wrote in 1996 that Ahmose-Nefertari was "sometimes portrayed by later generations as having been black, although her coffin portrait gives her the typical light yellow skin of women."[28]
Highlighting Ahmose-Nefertari and her son's deification as patrons of Deir el-Medina as well her worship as 'Mistress of the Sky', 'Lady of the West' and goddess of resurrection, Joyce Tyldesley indicates in 2006 that frequently in this setting she was depicted with black skin which symbolizes "fertility and rebirth rather than decay".[8]: 90 Sigrid Hodel-Hoenes states in 2000 that her black skin color can be attributed to her role as deified patron of Deir el-Medina, the color black being a reflection of "fertile earth and of the Netherworld and death"[29]: 268 In 2011, Graciela Gestoso Singer states that her black or blue skin color is "a reference to her position as the mother of Egypt" and indicative of her role as a goddess of resurrection, since black is the color of death, the underworld, rebirth and fertility, as well as the fertile land of Egypt.[5] In 2003, Betsy Bryan wrote in The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt that "the factors linking Amenhotep I and his mother with the necropolis region, with deified rulers, and with rejuvenation generally was visually transmitted by representations of the pair with black or blue skin – both colours of resurrection."[30] In 2004 Aidan Dodson and Dyan Hilton recognized in a later depiction of the queen, "the black skin of a deity of resurrection" in connection to her role as a patron goddess of the Theban necropolis.[1]: 125 In 2009 Eleni Vassilika, noting that in a wooden statuette of the queen (now at the Museo Egizio) the face is painted black but the arms and feet are light in color, argued that the reason for the black coloring in that case was religious and not genetic.[31]: 78–9 In 2014, Margaret Bunson wrote that "the unusual depictions of Ahmose-Nefertari in blue-black tones of deification reflect her status and cult."[32] In a wooden votive statue of Ahmose-Nefertari, currently in the Louvre museum, her skin was painted red,[33] a color commonly seen symbolizing life or a higher being, or elevated status.[27]
Early 20th century archaeologists made observations on Ahmose-Nefertari's likely phenotype and genealogy, and also on the probable symbolic meaning of her most frequent representation in black or purplish black skin tones.[b] In 1974, Cheikh Anta Diop described her as "typically negroid."[41]: 17 In the controversial book Black Athena, Martin Bernal intimated that members of the royal family to which Ahmose-Nefertari belonged may have originated from Nubia, and, according to him, 18th dynasty pharaohs could generally be referred to as black.[c] Bernal's work has been embraced by Afrocentrists, but rejected by mainstream Egyptologists.
they have a lot of references at the link. I am of the opinion that a lot of these color issues in the art, what they are intended to be of mean can't be determined definitively yet
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Doug, you are again fabricating an argument I never made to argue against. Yes Kmt IS a national construct which I have just proven in my post above.
The point was that the origin of the national identify of KMT, the black country originates in the South among other black populations on the NIle. This idea that somehow they saw themselves separate from that blackness when the color black was a core part of their cosmology and national identity is absurd.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Kmt is a national construct while Nhsy (Nubian) is a geographic one. Neither are ethnic but ethnic differences did indeed exist. Which Middle Kingdom rulers were Nubian? The dynasties of the Middle Kingdom came from 1st nome of Ta-Seti which is NOT Nubian but Egyptian. The wives of Mentuhotep were indeed Nubian as Yatunde has shown in her thread here which Dr. Solange Ashby shows that Mentuhotep's wives like Ashayet were Wawati (C-Group) Nubians.
And all she is doing is also going by lookership, what evidence is there other than that? Not to mention why would they be at war with so-called "Nubia" and at the same time marrying them and making them great wives of the pharaoh? Because there was never a monolithic entity called "Nubia" in the ancient dynastic era as opposed to various different kingdoms to the South, some of whom were allies and some weren't. But lets go with them being so-called "Nubians", then again, this shows that so-called "Nubian" marriages and bloodlines were common in the NIle and acting like somehow this was a rare and unique occurrence is absurd. The evidence completely contradicts that narrative, yet people keep trying to prop it up on flimsy logic to support this concept of "nubiology" which is simply more misconceptions based on Eurocentric concepts. Again, the origins of the dynastic culture is in the south and during numerous times of crisis throughout dynastic history, they turned to the South for allies. Therefore, from the very beginning there have always been those of so-called "Nubian" ancestry who were part of the nation of KMT and in fact, those southern origins and the blackness associated with it are cornerstones of the cosmology of KMT and its national identity that you somehow keep missing.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As for Maiherpri, note I never said he was Nubian for certain only that it was probable if not likely because portraits hint at it. If you're not aware after the 18th dynasty conquest of Kush, some members of the Kushite royal houses were adopted in the pharaonic house. So yes that would explain why Nubians can be buried in the Valley of the Kings. Ahmose Nefertari and her family are from Upper Egypt NOT Nubia, that they may have Nubian relations is only a conjecture again based solely on certain phenotypic traits.
Again what I said was you have no proof that Maiherpri was so-called "Nubian" when there is more proof and evidence of so-called "Nubian" ancestry for Ahmose Nefertari, which includes her being depicted as jet black. And you have absolutely not addressed any of that, going to my point that the "rules" you are using to identify so-called "Nubians" are simply based on lookership and nothing else. I gave you the evidence of substantial relationships between the late 17th dynasty and Kermans further South, and you completely ignored that. Again, the point being the use of the label is purely arbitrary and inconsistent because the underlying mentality behind it originates from a Eurocentric perspective.
The reason Ahmose Nefertari is jet black is symbolic of the South, including the flow of the Nile from the South and the flow of people and culture from the South. You keep throwing out the fact that it is a symbol but not what it is actually symbolic of: southern origins, aka so-called "Nubian" origins. Which is why all this flip flopping around about when certain 'rules' identify someone as so-called "Nubian" are arbitrary and inconsistent. That was the point.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Doug, again you have failed to prove that ethnic distinctions are simply arbitrary and not based on stereotypes based on such distinctions. The Nile Valley peoples are heterogeneous so distinctions can be made. It's like saying there were no differences between Mesopotamians even though they too were diverse or say differences between ancient Balkans like the Greeks vs. their northern neighbors. Get over it.
No you are confused. I wasn't trying to prove anything other than Maiherpri was a national of KMT and buried with high status as such and not distinguished as anything other than that. Your argument that somehow his burial reflects some kind of so-caled "Nubian" heritage is false, because he wasn't buried by so-called "Nubians". He was buried in KMT as a noble of the "black nation". Somehow you are determined to pretend that this is not the obvious point. So there was no distinction in that sense and you are the one making the distinction where the burial itself and none of the evidence around it supports it was my point. It is all based on a lookership argument that if someone is depicted as jet black in the ancient Nile they must be so-called "Nubian" when again, the color black is one of the highest and most powerful symbols of the identity of KMT and there are plenty of royals and high officials depicted as such. So if you are going to be consistent then apply those same "rules" to these other people. But you refuse to admit that this the problem here.
Posts: 8940 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
As usual Doug, your point is null yet you make it out to be mountain worth standing on. Yes, Egyptian civilization originated in the 'south' as in Ta-Shemau, among 'black' people but how does that change the fact that black people are diverse? Again Egyptians noted differences between Mehuwi and Shemawi as well as between them and Keshli (Kushites). Ethnic difference exists even amongst black people. This is like saying Greek culture originated in the north among whites but ignore the fact that Greeks were different from Macedonians, Thracians, and others.
Again, I never said Maiherpri was Nubian only that it was a possibility since the 18th dynasty adopted Kushite royals into their family. As for Ahmose Nefertari there is NO evidence whatsoever for having Nehesy ancestry, and we have told you numerous times that her jet-black image is SYMBOLIC of her divine status like Iset (Isis) as Kmt-wrt (Great Black). Her original skin tone was the same as her husband who was her brother. You are obviously confused.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Nubian or Nehesy, as the Egyptians called them, is a generic geographic term....
Yes, Egyptian civilization originated in the 'south' as in Ta-Shemau, among 'black' people but how does that change the fact that black people are diverse?
Again, I never said Maiherpri was Nubian only that it was a possibility
Doug would argue (and he can correct my if I am wrong) there should be no possibility that anybody might be a called a "Nubian" because the word "Nubian" is a racist foreign word that came into use in Roman times and that it's historical use by Egyptologists and Historians is as code word for "black" not only a place location.
and with it's phenotypic implications it's used to imply that the Egyptians weren't black because they were right up the street yet "not of the Nubian type"
and if someone calls it out as a race word the meaning can be switched "no it's just location". but when the heats off, back to he or she looks more Nubian than him or her. The full implication hides in the location when convenient
Doug would argue (and he can correct me if I am wrong) there the diversity of Nile Valley black people was evenly spread in in the locations the mainstream called Egypt and Nubia that is his main point (I think)
but the word "Nubia" is used to imply that people there were racially different from the Egyptians and that the Egyptians must be less black or a racially intermediate people of some sort, with some black-ish individuals here or there but not true blacks Egyptologists have these assumptions and when they scrutinize a particular Egyptian's ancestry as maybe having been foreign they do so having been inspired with bias of thinking that jet black skin is a hint that they are from the south, outside of Egypt, where the blacks are, then they must look for evidence to try to confirm their appearance based hunch
Yet at the same time, in the Book of Gates the Egyptians themselves depict 4 groups of humankind passing into the after world and they depict themselves as brown in color and the Nhsy as black
And in the actual scene each group is a line of four of them for a total of 16
and within each group all four of one type are depicted virtually the same, no variation of color
So is this grouping of people, this Egyptian concept that different from color distinctions that are implied with the term "Nubian" ?
the Egyptians themselves showing ethnic groups and with four of each one not showing any color variation in the depiction even if they do show color variation of Kushites elsewhere although still depicted jet black a lot more than Egyptians
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ We don't know the exact meaning of Nhsy, but we do know it was a generic label not a specific one because it was used as compound after specific ethne e.g. Wawati-Nehesy, Medja-Nehesy, Keshli-Nehesy, etc.
Hence Nehesy was the rough equivalent of 'Nubian' since it was apparently applied to to the different peoples of the region Nubia. Egyptians were not Nehesy though some Egyptians, specifically the Shemawy were closer related to certain Nehesy more than others.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have seen a few but not many Nehesy depicted in Egyptian art prior to the 18th dynasty but many in the 18th and later.
In the Book of Gates scenes in various tombs we with see this grouping of 4 types with different skin color. The Kushites are all jet black, no variation even though their are four of them in the scene In other art of the period you see many jet black and Kushites and some but less reddish brown and Egyptians depicted jet black much less, usually only individuals or Osiris and a deified Ahmose-Neferatri, some Mentuhotep pieces but not others Thus someone might not be correct that Maiherpri is Nehesey but it would be reasonable to guess he was since there are so many jet black Kushites and other Southern groups (Nehesy) depicted in the art
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is not accurate at all, first off Ta-Seti was originally an independent NHSY state that was conquered and INCORPORATED into Kmt. The elite of Ta-seti were still NHSY and sometimes depicted or presented themselves as such. I have presented countless examples, in my Uha-ka thread, that span countless generations of NHSY elite dominating this area from the early dynasties to the Ptolemaic era. This is a verified fact backed by primary evidence that no Egyptologist can deny. It’s not afrocentism.
A more accurate statement would be Ta seti was a NHSY-Kemetian populated nome under the control of the unified Kmt state. It was a transitional area where both identities blended. Saying it was Egyptian not NHSY denies the history of these people and distorts the complex relationship of this area.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Kmt is a national construct while Nhsy (Nubian) is a geographic one. Neither are ethnic but ethnic differences did indeed exist. Which Middle Kingdom rulers were Nubian? The dynasties of the Middle Kingdom came from 1st nome of Ta-Seti which is NOT Nubian but Egyptian.
Posts: 8872 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Yes we already know Ta-Seti was a separate state and ethnos from Kmt. I do question whether it was ever formally called Nhsy, if you have textual evidence of such. I'm not doubting your claim but that Ta-Seti's incorporation happened very early in the Archaic Period of Kmtwy.
Mind you there were A-Group (Setiu) already residing in the 1st nome of Shemaw who were assimilated much earlier into Naqada Culture before Kmt's expansion into Qustul.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
One does wonder what definitions underlay these Kemetic generic labels that get translated to "Nubian", "Libyan", or "Asiatic". In the case of Nehesi, maybe it started as a term for A-Group Nubians (aka Ta Seti) that the Egyptians later applied to other groups to their south? Nehesi doesn't etymologically mean "southerner", but the common denominator among the Nehesi groups is that they lay south of Egypt.
posted
^ The root word in Nhsy is nhs which is represented by the horned guinea fowl glyph . It obviously does not mean "negro" as James Breasted would have us believe! LOL
But just to show that such bird labels are not unique to Nubians. The rekhyt (lapwing bird) was applied as Rekhyti to Delta folk by Shemawy as well so go figure.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know if there is primary evidence of it being called NHSY because as you said it was incorporated early into the Unified state of the Two Lands Km.t...that said the people of Ta Seti were so called "A Group" people who had distinctive customs and burial practices as well as naming customs. Do you consider A group customs NHSY? Do you consider Speo aka Rock Hewn Temples NHSY?(BTW Ramses II, who held the title associated with the Ta Seti Elite aka "Great of Medjai" created the greatest Speo (Rock Hewn) Temple ABU SIMBEL, in TA SETI territory to Impress the NHSY(Not to intimidated them like some people claim) Do you Consider Gods who were Worshipped Originally AT Elephantine, Aswan and Luxor NHSY?
This is exactly what the Elite of Ta Seti reflected and represented sometimes Openly even with a Northen Suten ruling, they ruled almost with impunity.
Do you consider these people Egyptian then? At the end of the day it seems to be a complicated issue.
I provide countless examples of the power the Elite of Ta Seti controlled
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes we already know Ta-Seti was a separate state and ethnos from Kmt. I do question whether it was ever formally called Nhsy, if you have textual evidence of such. I'm not doubting your claim but that Ta-Seti's incorporation happened very early in the Archaic Period of Kmtwy.
Mind you there were A-Group (Setiu) already residing in the 1st nome of Shemaw who were assimilated much earlier into Naqada Culture before Kmt's expansion into Qustul.
Posts: 8872 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Ta-Seti as a polity disappeared once Egypt conquered them. The region that it occupied-- Lower Nubia-- became or rather reverted back to Wawat which was politically divided between the presumed remnant Setiu people who were not captured and assimilated into Kmt. The Wawati were in turn annexed into the empire of the Kushites from further south in Upper Nubia. And yes I agree Ramesses the Great's monuments were not made to intimidate so much as legitimize to the other Nehesy his power. The Medjay were long time allies of the Egyptians beginning with the 18th dynasty so it would not be unsual for some Egyptian kings to adopt the title 'Great of Medja' showing suzerainty over them.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As usual Doug, your point is null yet you make it out to be mountain worth standing on. Yes, Egyptian civilization originated in the 'south' as in Ta-Shemau, among 'black' people but how does that change the fact that black people are diverse?
DJ, I am going to be civil here, but you are absolutely verging on trolling right now. Because you are absolutely avoiding the point, which is you cannot simply use the color black as a marker of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. I called you out on it and instead of just accepting that black skin color was just as common in the dynastic kingdom as Southern areas, you continue to dig into this rubric of trying to argue that somehow "black" as a color is a marker of foreign identity. And you refuse to let go of that absolute BS argument. Again, "black" is the root of the name of the country itself and "black" as a color was used for the most famous and exhalted female queen of any queen in dynastic history. And the fact that you are going to sit here and try to argue that this use of black within the cosmology and identity of the dynastic kingdom is separate from the black so-called "Nubian" shows what you are supporting is a arbitrary and inconsistent definition of blackness as a marker of cultural and political identity. This is a fairly obvious contradiction that purely arises out of adhering to Eurocentric concepts on the ancient Nile Valley. If Mentuhotep and other pharaohs took so-called "Nubian" wives and elevated them in the Middle Kingdom and then so-called Nubian allies were a key part of the rise of the 17th dynasty rulers and then the foundation of the 18th via Ahmose Nefertari, then it is fairly obvious that her black skin is more than symbolic and likely a continuation of the tradition of elevating so-called "Nubian" women to important roles within the dynastic kingdom. Not to mention why is she the only queen of dynastic history depicted this way? You haven't addressed this at all and instead show that you have no desire to address the facts and evidence to support claims of "nubians" while relying on lookership alone as the basis for your use of the designation. It is arbitrary and inconsistent. That was the point and still is the point and you are simply showing that you refuse to go beyond that.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again Egyptians noted differences between Mehuwi and Shemawi as well as between them and Keshli (Kushites). Ethnic difference exists even amongst black people. This is like saying Greek culture originated in the north among whites but ignore the fact that Greeks were different from Macedonians, Thracians, and others.
Again, I never said Maiherpri was Nubian only that it was a possibility since the 18th dynasty adopted Kushite royals into their family. As for Ahmose Nefertari there is NO evidence whatsoever for having Nehesy ancestry, and we have told you numerous times that her jet-black image is SYMBOLIC of her divine status like Iset (Isis) as Kmt-wrt (Great Black). Her original skin tone was the same as her husband who was her brother. You are obviously confused.
And as proof of what I said, you go right back to propping up your whole argument based on lookership alone as proof of so-called "nubian" ancestry for Maiherpri. Because again, that is where this started. And you refuse to even discuss the evidence for Ahmose Nefertari and her potential so-called "Nubian" ancestry, which just shows you aren't even engaging in a scholarly discussion and are just regurgitating irrelevant factoids. You cannot tell if someone is a so-called "Nubian" by looks on AE art alone is the point. That is not even scholarly. Because not all so-called "Nubians" looked like modern day Dinka or Nuer. Some like the populations between Aswan and the 2nd cataract would have looked no different than those of the dynastic population. So again I am calling out your absurd assignment of so-called "Nubian" identity for dynastic officials who are not listed as being anything other than high ranking nobles of the dynastic kingdom and nothing else. And if you were being serious and consistent in the usage of this argument, you would acknowledge the other so-called "Nubian" high officials, royals and queens such as potentially Ahmose Nefertari and others. And your whole defense against Nefertari being so-called "Nubian" is again "lookership", not evidence of her family tree or evidence of relations between the 17th dynasty and so-called "Nubian" allies.
And in reality what you are sitting here saying is a reiteration of all the Eurocentric talking points of Egyptology. They have not clarified the origins and relationships of the 17th dynasty and they haven't even been able to clearly identify who the Hyksos were in the same time period. They hardly ever mention Ahmose Nefertari as the most famous and revered Queen of the entire dynastic era because she is so often depicted as jet black, while they constantly keep pushing Nefertiti and her white bust as somehow the ideal of beauty from the ancient NIle, when it wasnt. And this is why Ahmose Nefertari cannot even be suggested to be of so-called "Nubian" ancestry because that goes against the narrative of Egyptology itself. Not to mention that a big part of this narrative depends on depicting so-called "Nubia" as a single monolithic entity for "All blacks" to the South, when that is absolutely not how it was looked at in the dynastic era. And this is why this construct of "nubia" is problematic and why I call it out. It is almost equivalent to the concept of "sub saharan" Africa as a monolithic identity and culture.
As for my overall intrpretation of the relationship between the dynastic kingdom and southern kingdoms is as something more akin to game of thrones. You basically had a bunch of kingdoms fighting each other from which emerged the dynastic state from among the various factions (all of which are obviously black). This is what you see in stories about the founding of the dynastic state itself. But those factions didn't go away and there were still many factions and kingdoms to the south that were influential in the culture of the dynastic state as allies, soldiers and citizens. And periodically various elements of these factions would rise up and rebel against the dynastic order and cause chaos. That can be seen in the first intermediate period and in the second intermediate period. And it was among those various factions that numerous pharaohs or high officials arose who in turn would go to war against those other factions to prevent them from usurping their rule. A good example of this is seen in the texts written by Ahmose Son of Ebana. So there was no monolithic "Nubia" as opposed to various factions and kingdoms to the South, some who were allies and some who were enemies and those allegiances fluctuated over time.
posted
Doug, as usual your long winded counter-argument is nothing more than a giant straw house. You did not refute anything I said but merely put words in my mouth.
NO! I never said Nubians looked "Dinka" or "Nuer" because Dinka and Nuer were not only Nilo-Saharan speakers but in facial morphology they had broad morphotype in contrast the narrow morphotype more common in North Africans which the actual Nubians were. There is more suspicion for Maiherpri being Nubian than Ahmose-Nefertari because the latter came from the 18th dynasty known for adopting Kushites into the royal household and his pictures depict him with his natural complexion which was much darker. Meanwhile the jet-black complexion of Ahmose-Nefertari was purely symbolic of her divine status since her actual skin color would have been that of her brother-husband. While we don't know too much about the 17th dynasties family relations, we have yet to find evidence that they are related to Nubians. Seqenere Tao's prognathism was taken as such by Harris and Wente as a possibility they may be related to Nubians like the Medjay but there is no evidence to be certain especially since prognathism was not unusual in Upper Egypt.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not really relevant now, but before I 'left', I liked to see more people drop knowledge bombs.
The OP had detailed info showing a difference between Nubians at the Egyptian border and Upper Nubians, in terms of hair texture. That was never talked about on here, and has never been talked about since.
After years of posting here, the limitations and patterns on this site become almost tangible.
And for the record. Keita's interpretation is wrong. Badarian hair is not Like "Fulani hair or Kanuri hair". For whatever reason, Keita misquoted Strouhal. That article going around talking about Egyptian hair (the one with the African author) also has a bunch of mistakes, including quotes from Keita.
And modern Egyptian hair is not the same as ancient Egyptian hair (see the +20% SSA ancestry in modern Egyptians, reported in the Abusir study, for instance. So, modern Egyptians with Afro-textured hair doesn't prove anything in itself.
I've dropped hints every now and then that modern dark skinned Egyptians and North Africans are not necessarily ancient. But people are going to post what they want. It is what it is.
Posts: 8877 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not really relevant now, but before I 'left', I liked to see more people drop knowledge bombs.
The OP had detailed info showing a difference between Nubians at the Egyptian border and Upper Nubians, in terms of hair texture. That was never talked about on here, and has never been talked about since.
That was actually addressed in the last page. The Kushites tend to have coiled hair in contrast to the Egyptians or as you've pointed out Lower Nubian groups.
quote:After years of posting here, the limitations and patterns on this site become almost tangible.
And for the record. Keita's interpretation is wrong. Badarian hair is not Like "Fulani hair or Kanuri hair". For whatever reason, Keita misquoted Strouhal. That article going around talking about Egyptian hair (the one with the African author) also has a bunch of mistakes, including quotes from Keita.
And modern Egyptian hair is not the same as ancient Egyptian hair (see the +20% SSA ancestry in modern Egyptians, reported in the Abusir study, for instance. So, modern Egyptians with Afro-textured hair doesn't prove anything in itself.
I've dropped hints every now and then that modern dark skinned Egyptians and North Africans are not necessarily ancient. But people are going to post what they want. It is what it is.
If you're talking about the source I pointed, you're correct, it is somewhat low tiered in terms of the data were used to discussing, trichometric index aside. As for the Keita claims on Kanuri hair, can you verify what is meant by that?
And yes we know that modern Egyptians are not the same as ancient Egyptians with not just the SSA ancestry but also the extra Asiatic ancestry. Ironically I've seen more 'kinky' hair from Delta Egyptians than Upper Egyptians.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^From what I remember, it was especially Nubians at the Egyptian border that had high rates (exclusively?) of the Egyptian hair type (wavy-straigjt and some curly), not Lower Egyptians as a whole. Mummies from Lower Egypt and Kush also had examples of this but from the data, one of the epicenters, was the Egyptian border area, and going south from there, along the river, I do not recall there being another epicenter with a spike as noticeable as at the Egyptian border, although there were minor spikes here and there (I seem to remember a body pit, for instance, where such individuals were found, away from the Egyptian border).
What I mean with Keita is that Strouhal clearly said that, among the Badarian hairs, there were wavy, straight and curly hairs, but that he only took the hairs of what he considered "mixed individuals" (by which he means, mixed-looking individuals) for followup analyses. It's this non-representative "mixed" bunch, that does not include any of the straight Badarian hairs, that Keita ran with and compared to his own subjective assessments of Kanuri and Fulani.
EDIT I wrote Lower Egypt in places above, when I meant lower Nubia. I never even meant to talk about Lower Egypt, so all references to Lower Egypt can be exchanged to Lower Nubia.
In some of the Badariancrania hair was preserved, thanks to good condi- tions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in I6 samples, dark brown in II, brown in I2, light brownin i and grey in I I cases.25 Thanks to the courtesy of Dr Lawrence and Dr Garlick from the Duckworth Laboratory in Cambridge, I was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian individuals which were macroscopically curly (spirals of Io-20 mm in diameter) or wavy (25-35 mm). They were studied microscopically by S. Tittelbachova' from the Institute of Anthro- pology of the Charles University, who found in five out of seven samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its length, sometimes with a simultaneous narrowing of the hair pith. The outline of the cross- sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid influence among the Badarians Evidence of the Early Penetration of Negroes into Prehistoric Egypt https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-african-history/article/abs/evidence-of-the-early-penetration-of-negroes-into-prehistoric-egypt/87FB120E902B86D7ABFC6EF9EE1FAE74Posts: 8877 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ This makes me think about similar trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with coiled hair vs. southern and interior Horners with looser straighter hair.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ This makes me think about similar trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with coiled hair vs. southern and interior Horners with looser straighter hair.
you didn't intend to say the reverse?
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ This makes me think about similar trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with coiled hair vs. southern and interior Horners with looser straighter hair.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What do you mean?
this
quote: trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with with looser straighter hair vs. southern and interior Horners coiled hair
but whatever the case, I think it would be better to attempt that using ethnic groups name in Ethiopia
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ No! What I initially wrote was accurate-- populations in the northern part of the Horn and around the coasts have coiled hair despite their higher concentration of Eurasian ancestry, whereas those in the south and closer to the interior with less Eurasian ancestry have straighter hair. This was explained to you earlier in this thread which destroys your claim that straighter hair is associated with Eurasian ancestry.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
. It obviously does not mean "negro" as James Breasted would have us believe! LOL
Printer-friendly view of this topic