You don't want to see the difference Lazeez, or Chinderella, it comes with a price. [/QB]
Yeah we aren't suppose to be taught about our country from you when you don't even live here and all your informations come from some biased anti Islamic websites.
I want to see Muslims in your country having high positons in government and military otherwise I will believe Muslims are second citizens in your country.
Let's play your game...we have some Chrsitians who worked as ministers in government and christian who leaded Egyptian army in 1973 war.
Show me the same in USA, or UK or your country.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by muslimman: LaZeez, take it easy. Can u in clear way explain why you feel insulted by Demiana? Im losing the track here... what do you want to hear from others? that they are mistaken and they are stupid that havent followed islam yet? or what? just as simple as possible, maybe it will calm the whole mess here. thx. Salam
Mulimmann, Lazeez & Demiana are not insluting each other at all.... they only disagree about this topic. Demiana is convinced that Copts have no rights here while Lazez is trying to correct her misconceptions.
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella on the Left wing:
quote:Originally posted by muslimman: LaZeez, take it easy. Can u in clear way explain why you feel insulted by Demiana? Im losing the track here... what do you want to hear from others? that they are mistaken and they are stupid that havent followed islam yet? or what? just as simple as possible, maybe it will calm the whole mess here. thx. Salam
Mulimmann, Lazeez & Demiana are not insluting each other at all.... they only disagree about this topic. Demiana is convinced that Copts have no rights here while Lazez is trying to correct her misconceptions.
Its not that Copts have no rights, they don't have the same level of freedom of religion and ability to build their careers as Muslims do in Egypt.
But Egypt isn't as bad as KSA in which no church stands and bringing a bible into KSA is not allowed.
Or how in Sweden Muslims have been trying for years to build a Mosque in the city centre of Stockholm.
Or in Denmark Islamic Schools haven't been given an official acceptance according to the standards of the Danish government, so they are shut down within months of years of opening.
There is so many injustices against Muslims in Europe, that governments and societies in the Middle East find it acceptable to restrict freedoms and societal elevations of Christians in the Middle East to compensate.
But is it right for the west or the east to carry on like this? Is it correct according to western Democracy or Islamic Principles? NO!
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
so the question is .. who will stop it first? Is there any volunteer from western democracy or islamic leaders? NO... unfortunately, both sides are well prepared to fight with each other using media as the creator of our knowledge... so we know what they want to tell us...
Posts: 119 | From: Poland, US, Egypt, Australia... anywhere | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella on the Left wing:
quote:Originally posted by muslimman: LaZeez, take it easy. Can u in clear way explain why you feel insulted by Demiana? Im losing the track here... what do you want to hear from others? that they are mistaken and they are stupid that havent followed islam yet? or what? just as simple as possible, maybe it will calm the whole mess here. thx. Salam
Mulimmann, Lazeez & Demiana are not insluting each other at all.... they only disagree about this topic. Demiana is convinced that Copts have no rights here while Lazez is trying to correct her misconceptions.
Its not that Copts have no rights, they don't have the same level of freedom of religion and ability to build their careers as Muslims do in Egypt.
But Egypt isn't as bad as KSA in which no church stands and bringing a bible into KSA is not allowed.
Or how in Sweden Muslims have been trying for years to build a Mosque in the city centre of Stockholm.
Or in Denmark Islamic Schools haven't been given an official acceptance according to the standards of the Danish government, so they are shut down within months of years of opening.
There is so many injustices against Muslims in Europe, that governments and societies in the Middle East find it acceptable to restrict freedoms and societal elevations of Christians in the Middle East to compensate.
But is it right for the west or the east to carry on like this? Is it correct according to western Democracy or Islamic Principles? NO!
Thank you Albino for pointing out to some the inconsistence within the western approach towards Muslims as well. those thing are usually ignored and all emphaises goes towards what Muslims do.
This being said, I can't agree with your sentence about religious freedom in Egypt , what religious freedom? Religion in Egypt is just a tool but the government shut down many mosques which say unpleasent things about the government and arrest many Muslim scholars.
I don't see any religious freedom even with controlled Church whethere the pope kisses the government ass alongside the grand shikh of Azhar.
The thing some non Egyptian need to understand is the clear and simple fact that Mubarak gives no damn about Islam, he isn't concerned in converting Christians to Islam.
Muslims alongside Christians need freedom of religion, need democracy, real democracy, need civilized treatment...etc
If rights are measured by how many high positions people have, Christians in Egypt will be regarded to be treated better than any minority in the west because here they became ministers, but the fact remains they still suffer like the rest of Egyptians.
It's not by the number of churche or mosques either, I see many churchs that even outnumber the perecentage of Christians here. I think what Christians need is the same that Muslims need....real democracy and civilized treatment.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by LaZeeZ: Thank you Albino for pointing out to some the inconsistence within the western approach towards Muslims as well. those thing are usually ignored and all emphaises goes towards what Muslims do.
This being said, I can't agree with your sentence about religious freedom in Egypt , what religious freedom? Religion in Egypt is just a tool but the government shut down many mosques which say unpleasent things about the government and arrest many Muslim scholars.
I don't see any religious freedom even with controlled Church whethere the pope kisses the government ass alongside the grand shikh of Azhar.
The thing some non Egyptian need to understand is the clear and simple fact that Mubarak gives no damn about Islam, he isn't concerned in converting Christians to Islam.
Those Muslim scholars you are refering to have not been granted a degree from any accredited school or college. They are like Sheik Sharawi if you remember him.
An accredited degreed Sheik doesn't sell cassette tapes. A authentically educated Sheik doesn't call for civil war between Muslims just so he can be first inline to become a Caliphate.
Its not about converting Christians to Islam, its about making life difficult for Copts so the masses recognize the Pharoah in charge is loyal to them, the Muslim majority.
Yet in the Muslim world very little is said in reference to the less than stellar personal life of these vanguards of the faith. Remember the hold off in Imbaba? Wasn't the leader of that riot a Sheik shacked up with a belly-dancer?
Come on!
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I am the last to deny that muslems suffer from misconceptions and discrimination in my country, although they have full rights. I don't want to measure up one wrong with the other, to me it is not a contest. At least they can turn to the law to intervene when they are wronged and count on the same laws that go for everybody. Besides in time legislation and amendments will take account of the minorityposition. And yes we have highranking muslems in the military and politics in the mean time, Islamic schools and talks about an Islamic hospital, although it is a difficult battle sometimes. One that will go away over some generation(s).
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella on the Left wing:
quote:Originally posted by muslimman: LaZeez, take it easy. Can u in clear way explain why you feel insulted by Demiana? Im losing the track here... what do you want to hear from others? that they are mistaken and they are stupid that havent followed islam yet? or what? just as simple as possible, maybe it will calm the whole mess here. thx. Salam
Mulimmann, Lazeez & Demiana are not insluting each other at all.... they only disagree about this topic. Demiana is convinced that Copts have no rights here while Lazez is trying to correct her misconceptions.
Its not that Copts have no rights, they don't have the same level of freedom of religion and ability to build their careers as Muslims do in Egypt.
But Egypt isn't as bad as KSA in which no church stands and bringing a bible into KSA is not allowed.
Or how in Sweden Muslims have been trying for years to build a Mosque in the city centre of Stockholm.
Or in Denmark Islamic Schools haven't been given an official acceptance according to the standards of the Danish government, so they are shut down within months of years of opening.
There is so many injustices against Muslims in Europe, that governments and societies in the Middle East find it acceptable to restrict freedoms and societal elevations of Christians in the Middle East to compensate.
But is it right for the west or the east to carry on like this? Is it correct according to western Democracy or Islamic Principles? NO!
That's why scholars says Any Muslim revert MUST migrate to A muslim country.
THe christian in Egypt don't pay tax(Jizia), No?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz: الله يخليك، انت مش دورك إنك تخلى كل الناس فى المنتدى ده يسلموا، كل واحد بيحب دينة و ذى ما أنت بتحب دينك، فحاول تحترم حرية و عقيدة الأخرين، بلاش بقى نلافيهم بيقولوا عليك إرهابى...... فى أجانب هنا مخهم ضيق و بيفسروا الحاجات دى غلط
إحترم إن فى أديان تانيه هنا غير الإسلام و الكلام ده بيضايقهم ذى ما بيضايقك لما حد مش بيحترم دينك
إنت خليك مسلم كويس و ركز فى نفسك و خلاس
Cindrella told him it's bad to be gay while ur muslim "for non arabic speakers"
Posts: 226 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz: الله يخليك، انت مش دورك إنك تخلى كل الناس فى المنتدى ده يسلموا، كل واحد بيحب دينة و ذى ما أنت بتحب دينك، فحاول تحترم حرية و عقيدة الأخرين، بلاش بقى نلافيهم بيقولوا عليك إرهابى...... فى أجانب هنا مخهم ضيق و بيفسروا الحاجات دى غلط
إحترم إن فى أديان تانيه هنا غير الإسلام و الكلام ده بيضايقهم ذى ما بيضايقك لما حد مش بيحترم دينك
إنت خليك مسلم كويس و ركز فى نفسك و خلاس
Cindrella told him it's bad to be gay while ur muslim "for non arabic speakers"
it has nothing to do with the thread.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka not here ): That's why scholars says Any Muslim revert MUST migrate to A muslim country.
THe christian in Egypt don't pay tax(Jizia), No?
They did before Nassar and the Revolutionary Concil took over!
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
There are specific rules and regulations where it is difficult to build organisations on religious grounds. New organisations will be followed very strict since the general idea is that it will promote gettoisation and a broader distance to the society at large. Even the copts in Amsterdam had their proposal for elementary school denied. The trend is to do everything to make minorities connect to school, work and participation in society. This is even threathning to established christian schools, some politicians want a ban on the freedom to start a school on religious or other grounds.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: There are specific rules and regulations where it is difficult to build organisations on religious grounds. New organisations will be followed very strict since the general idea is that it will promote gettoisation and a broader distance to the society at large. Even the copts in Amsterdam had their proposal for elementary school denied. The trend is to do everything to make minorities connect to school, work and participation in society. This is even threathning to established christian schools, some politicians want a ban on the freedom to start a school on religious or other grounds.
My mother was learning in a christian school. She was a muslim. There are lots of chritian schools in egypt Damiana, wat r u talking about? Do u ever lived in egypt?
The govenment take care of the christian minority more the muslims. if there is any fight between muslim and christian for something other than religion. the government stand with the chritian eeven if he is mistaked. you have no ideas about what is in egypt?
forget your point
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Churches pay taxes on their land where mosques don't.
let me know , from where did you get this? It's the first time in My life i read this line.
YOu cant believe some one told you some lies then u keep publishing his lies her
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
One truth will not wipe away a wrong Batman. I know there are Christian schools in Egypt and I know there are Muslims attending them. I know the gouvernment of Egypt has guardians in front of each church. I know muslems and christians can have good relations as schoolmates, friends and neighbours. I know the rights of every Egyptian is suppressed by the state of law and the dictatorship of Mubarak.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
You should ask Egyptians related to the judicial system I guess. And preferrable the older generation, they have a better view of the legislation over the years, younger Egyptians might be more brainwashed. What I know I hear from my husband and his uncle who is a retired judge now.
posted
This reminds me of a debate I once had with some older ES member some years ago who would not believe that Christians can be discriminated at antique Islamic sites as happened to me and my husband. You should check out from the horses mouth and come back to tell here what you find. So the right thing to do is find you someone that will inform you about the differences in legislations for Christians in the military, according to the handling of churches and the payment of the gouvernment for Islamic clergy compared to Christians. And whether Churches do or don't pay taxes compaired to mosques and anything else you might come up with. And go to cityhall and ask them if it is alowd to change your faith on your identitycard when you converted to another religion. And then come back and tell us this is not the case.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by *Albino_Eskimo*: Those Muslim scholars you are refering to have not been granted a degree from any accredited school or college. They are like Sheik Sharawi if you remember him.
Excuse me, but I'm lost here. What does sharway has to do with what we are talking about?
Second many of those scholars have degrees and they don't call for holy wars, just like many of those taken to jails and beaten for calling for protesting against Mubarak.
quote:Its not about converting Christians to Islam, its about making life difficult for Copts so the masses recognize the Pharoah in charge is loyal to them, the Muslim majority. [/QB]
Those who lives in Egypt know that Mubarak doesn't give a damn about majority or minority, same with any dictatoric regimes. He gets ellected by faking ellection and control the country through police, so he needs no majority to support him, and fact is he is very disliked by most Egyptians.
Mubarak cares more about What Bush needs than what majority need in Egypt. I thought you know this already. This is why some christians in USA play against Egyptian government to gain rights while leave Muslim issues ignored in Egypt.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: What I know I hear from my husband [/QB]
I was right when I told you, your husband lied to you. It's not difficult to predict where you're coming from...another brainswashed woman by her husband...shows how some women are so weak to understand things on their own.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Ask an Egyptian within in the judicial system that is knowledgeable about the legislation, preferrably someone from an older generation, or you may just have another laugh at those stupid christians and foreign wives. If that is what you want.
quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_batman. Batty got religious: Damiana, HOw much the tax ?
IF you figure, u will get that the government pay for the church for protection( the gurad salary)
in islam\, muslim takes smaller money from the chritian to do proetct the minority to make them live freely to reassure their rights
10 pound in comparison for thousands ponds
why? to proect less than 5 % of the people
what do christian want again?
most of the faithful christian convert to islam without anty forecing. becausethey find the supreme justice in Islam
Go figrue
Why do Christians need protecting in the first place?
Nothing to do with mobs burning down Churches does it? Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Don't blame me Lazeez.
Ask an Egyptian within in the judicial system that is knowledgeable about the legislation, preferrably someone from an older generation, or you may just have another laugh at those stupid christians and foreign wives. If that is what you want.
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Don't blame me Lazeez.
Ask an Egyptian within in the judicial system that is knowledgeable about the legislation, preferrably someone from an older generation, or you may just have another laugh at those stupid christians and foreign wives. If that is what you want.
And of course come back and tell us.
I did and they all say you're a liar
What else?
You want a battle on credibility Lazeez? Then we might need a 'judge' trusted by both parties!:-)
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
when the message of Muhammed reached egypt. most christian convert to islam by their own wishes. when they saw the justice of islam and the respect of Mary and Jesus. and the true convincing story about Jesus. they knew about the corruption in the book of jesus that people made after Jesus was raised to sky
some tiny % didnt convert
My ancestor was christian. they convert to islam. i'm muslim lik emy ancestor
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_batman. Batty got religious: Damiana, HOw much the tax ?
IF you figure, u will get that the government pay for the church for protection( the gurad salary)
in islam\, muslim takes smaller money from the chritian to do proetct the minority to make them live freely to reassure their rights
10 pound in comparison for thousands ponds
why? to proect less than 5 % of the people
what do christian want again?
most of the faithful christian convert to islam without anty forecing. becausethey find the supreme justice in Islam
Go figrue
Why do Christians need protecting in the first place?
Nothing to do with mobs burning down Churches does it?
every one in earth need proetction from any attacking power. If Israel attacks egypt, Thechristian isin our neck we shoud proetct their blood because they gives the major muslim themoney to do proetct them
this is a duty upon muslim to proetct the christian against any external attacking power like Islraelfro example' we take tiny monet to make them feel secured
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Don't blame me Lazeez.
Ask an Egyptian within in the judicial system that is knowledgeable about the legislation, preferrably someone from an older generation, or you may just have another laugh at those stupid christians and foreign wives. If that is what you want.
And of course come back and tell us.
I did and they all say you're a liar
What else?
You want a battle on credibility Lazeez?
what credibility? you've absloutely NONE! All you're doing is arguing about something you have no idea about except of what your husband and father in law who are coptic Christians tell you.
One can easily predict what your positions on coptic Christians would be if you were married to a Muslim with extremely negative views about Copts.
Go ahead and argue with yourself now...
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
As anywhere around us we will not have someone, trusted by both parties that will tell us the truth about the differences in the Egyptian legal systems in rights for Christians and for Muslems. All we seem to have is denial, blaming and division.
posted
Christians (and jews, and bahai, and other non-muslims) are leaving the ME outnumbering their muslimpeers for fun and they are loosers and lyers for not acknowledging the benevolent muslimrule towards christians of their country of birth.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
if you look carefully egypt is not governed by shariah law ony in marital and financial status the rest of its french if you dont beleive me u need to go into the law books th only state to uses complete shariah law is saudia arabia not evn pakistan is completely coevered in using shariah law ,,just wanted to make tha clear and for mosques that dont pay taxes they contribute another way through zakaat ,the churches really shudnt rely on taxes and do it through another way jesus after all abolished the taxes didnt he....but egyptian goverment is a bit more forceful in wanting ,but coptics have churches but do they have enough or not ...
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
no i dont think they have the same rights ,most of my friends are coptic in cairo ,,most of them are darn rich with plenty of money ..i always asking if they are ok there any problems all i get from them is this is cairo ,and how do u feel in your country as amuslim do u feel u got equal rights i say i have more than what everu u can think of ..and why is this thread getting so agressive CHILLLLLLLLLLLLLL ,ITS RAMADAN FOR ALL ....
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Our Father Who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever. Amen. isay this every day actually for the past 40yers and im muslim im kool and layed bck every one is no different to me i love every one be it they athiest too ...im not in for a fight but i feel from the threads u like too ...forgive me if im wrong any way w/salaams to yo take care until another day ...chimps.xxxxxxx
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
im not against you i just not think in the way you do if i do then im quiet in what im thinking ,,...thx 'allah hafeez ''god be with you ''
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz: الله يخليك، انت مش دورك إنك تخلى كل الناس فى المنتدى ده يسلموا، كل واحد بيحب دينة و ذى ما أنت بتحب دينك، فحاول تحترم حرية و عقيدة الأخرين، بلاش بقى نلافيهم بيقولوا عليك إرهابى...... فى أجانب هنا مخهم ضيق و بيفسروا الحاجات دى غلط
إحترم إن فى أديان تانيه هنا غير الإسلام و الكلام ده بيضايقهم ذى ما بيضايقك لما حد مش بيحترم دينك
إنت خليك مسلم كويس و ركز فى نفسك و خلاس
Cindrella told him it's bad to be gay while ur muslim "for non arabic speakers"
What a horrible translation???!!! this is wrong I didnt mention the word Gay here Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_batman. Batty got religious: My mother was learning in a christian school. She was a muslim. There are lots of chritian schools in egypt Damiana, wat r u talking about? Do u ever lived in egypt?
[/QB]
I went to a Chrisitian school too..... btw, we have many christian schools with nuns
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
when i came back to england i went to a christian boarding school most spoke latin found it difficult but most of us had priests for teachers any one the same like me ....
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
According to Shari'a( Islamic system), It's obligatory for christian living under the islamic system to pay Jizia( Tax).
This is the absolute justice.this is NOT a discrimination at all. The westerners see it's but in Fact it's not. before giving arguments on this point.
DO you know the reasons for it? this q is for christian and Muslims.
Ps: 1-Jizia is not Huge sum of money. 2- Poor christian Must be excused and the islamic system is fair in this point.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka not here ): According to Shari'a( Islamic system), It's obligatory for christian living under the islamic system to pay Jizia( Tax).
This is the absolute justice.this is NOT a discrimination at all. The westerners see it's but in Fact it's not. before giving arguments on this point.
DO you know the reasons for it? this q is for christian and Muslims.
Ps: 1-Jizia is not Huge sum of money. 2- Poor christian Must be excused and the islamic system is fair in this point.
Who would seriously want to live under the "Islamic system"? I would not want to live under any "Christian system" either since you have to ask yourself who's Christian or Islamic system that would be. It is an illusion to believe that you can have just one righteous religious system, it will all boil down to the religious leaders most powerfull in means and charisma (like politicians) that would make the decisions in your life. And you can't vote them away like in politics.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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