posted
plz Forever don't try to force someone to know the God from another view.
They have raised up on these teaching for many years and you can't just change all of that by some posts,let the live God knocks on their hearts and when they will open he will sit with them and then they will know the truth and see the light.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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u mean the light of insulting God " the stupid God like Paul describe" is that a light accordiong to ur point of View?
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:servant u mean the light of insulting God " the stupid God like Paul describe"
My brother what I can say to you that if you see the cup is half empty another one see the cup half full.
You are arguing about the meaning of the texts and every word able to be understand by many types according to the education and the mind of the reader so your argument is endless.
If you have read what Paul said and you understood that God is stupid and someone tried to clarify the opposite but you still on your own understanding, so it's pointless to talk so much in that, you have your opinion which sculptured in your mind from many years before about the bible.
It's very hard now to be changed by a human, it needs the God himself to help you in your understanding, in that time you will be able to see the cup half full.
God bless you brother.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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do u wanna me to change to worship 3 Gods and u want me to say stuff about God stupidity then Go to fire like jesus said in this Let us look at what Jesus said:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 5:22)"
Or u wanna me to say about wine like breasets and vaginas and turned to Porn
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Allright, enough now. No need to go on and on talking dirty in this holy month. We need some good manners here.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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Is Muhammad a false prophet?............Are you pissed off? Good. Don't disrespect Christians and/or the Bible. Show respect, and respect will be shown to you.........But if you want to call a spade a spade......then we can go there. I prefer dialogue, so stop screwing with Deminana and lets REASON like human beings. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Un-armed. Silly goose. Your stepping on rough terrain. FOR THE LAST TIME I WILL TELL YOU...............SURAH 2(GOT THAT! SURAH 2) states that Christians and Jews, as long as they do good deeds, etc., will be fine on the Day of Judgment................Yet, in another Surah, Muhammad says that now only Islam is the way. Now my question is why is there an aborgation? Why did allah change his mind? Why are Christians and Jews acceptable in allah's site one minute, but then later they are condemned? Does God change his mind? Nope. According to the book of Malachi, God says, "I do not change". God doesn't change His mind. Therefore, why did allah change his mind? Because of the aborgations, Christians and Jews are now condemned to not receive the muslim heaven, correct? If this is so, another question I have is what happened to the Christians and the Jews if they died before the abrogation? If Muhammad spoke Surah 2, and a Christian died soon after before hearing the condemnation of Jews, does not mean he didn't make it to the muslim heaven? Did he make it? Would the Jew or Christian sat in the muslim heaven with 70 virgins?......................I asked you a fair question. Now if you don't answer the question, then it will be quite obvious that you are "UNARMED". So this is your chance to show that you are not just full of tirades but that you acutually have something of substance to say. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Or u wanna me to say about wine like breasets and vaginas and turned to Porn
First you didn't give us an example for what you have mentioned about these words to let us explain to you.
You have to understand that the bible is full with symbols and many words is not giving you the direct meaning as an examples in the bible the word breast
In Pslam31:2 See, I have made my soul calm and quiet, like a child on its mother's breast; my soul is like a child on its mother's breast.
In Job 24:9 The child without a father is forced from its mother's breast, and they take the young children of the poor for debt
Do you find the word breast here giving you porno meaning?
Of course no in the first example it's a symbol for the ease and the safe of the soul looks like the feeling of child on its mother breast and in the second example came by another meaning.
Another example form the life When a lady going to the doctor afraid of breast's cancer, how the doctor will examine her? he has to examine her by checking her breast to find if there is a tumor or not isn't right? So can you say now that both the woman and the doctor are doing porno?
So my friend you have to understand that the bible is a spiritual book because the goal of the God is our salvation and you will not be saved until your spirit became adult enough to understand the meaning behind the words.
I could excused you if you read the bible and you came to ask about the words you don like but just you like to debate only by listening it will be useless to you and the readers, so if you like to debate you have to read and you are most welcome you can find many answers to your questions in this link it's in arabic also
posted
Thanks to you Servant, your words really calming down, we hope everyone to read the bible first before debating on ignorance, on that time it will be useful for everyone.
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Israel: [ states that Christians and Jews, as long as they do good deeds, etc., will be fine on the Day of Judgment................Yet, in another Surah, Muhammad says that now only Islam is the way.[/QB]
I don't think god will be fair if he put all the chistians & Jews in hell no matter what good they do.... & put all the muslims in heaven no matter what bad they do.
It just doesnt make any sense & it's unfair!
God is fair..... I think there are parts in Quran that are misinterpreted ..... yes misinterpreted.... I am a mulsim & I am saying it.... It cannot be........... this is an insult to god, to Jesus, to Moussa & to all the christians & jews on earth.
Havent you thought of it that way? it cant be the correct interpretation !
And Arrow.... Muhammad was a great prophet who preformed miracles..... he was not a pedophile & he was not violent..... you guys get wrong interpretations as well. Another insult to Muhammad!
Enough said
Thank you
God bless
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Thanks to you Servant, your words really calming down, we hope everyone to read the bible first before debating on ignorance, on that time it will be useful for everyone.
ok let's read it first
here's some of my favourite verses
If you see a pretty woman among the captives and would like her for a wife, then just bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can "let her go." 21:11-14
You can't go to church if your testicles are damaged or your penis has been cut off. 23:1
Samson wants to have sex with his wife in the bedroom, but his father won't let him. 15:1
"Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her." 16:1
The sons of Eli had sex with women "at the door of the tabernacle." 2:22
Since women are inherently dirty, the woman that "pleased the king" the most must be "purified" for twelve months before she can be made queen. 2:9-12 Psalms
Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times." 5:18
"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." 4:5
"We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts ... But my breasts [are] like towers." 8:8-10 Isaiah
God tells Isaiah to take off all his clothes and to wander about completely naked for three years as a "sign and a wonder." In this way he will be just like the Egyptian captives who will walk about naked "with their buttocks uncovered." 20:2-5
Tyre "shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world," and her hire shall be holiness to the Lord." 23:17-18
Jerusalem still wasn't satisfied after having sex with the the well-endowed Egyptians (v.26), so she had sex with the Assyrians too. Yet she still wasn't satisfied. So she had sex with the men of Canaan and Chaldea, but still was not satisfied. 16:28-29
God calls Jerusalem "an imperious whorish woman." 16:30
God says that Jerusalem has sex with strangers, hiring them to "come in unto thee on every side." 16:32-33
Because she is such a filthy harlot, God will expose her nakedness before all of her lovers. 16:35-36
After exposing her nakedness, God will give her "blood in fury and jealousy" and strip her naked once more. 16:38-41
Information from God about discovering the nakedness of fathers, committing adultery with neighbor's wives, sex with menstruating women, daughters-in-law, sisters, etc. 22:1-11
God (or Hosea?) tells his children that their mother is a whore who is not his wife. He asks them to tell their mother to "put away her whoredoms" and "her adulteries from between her breasts" or he'll "strip her naked ... and slay her with thirst." 2:2-3
Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. 1:27 1 Corinthians
Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." 2:22
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Jesus said before take care from false prophets who will com after me in sheep clothes but they are wolves from inside, from their fruits you will know them .
i DOUBT IF HE SAID IT.
LETS' ASSUME HE SAID,
WHERE R THOSE FALSE 'PROPHETS'?? they must be more than one
hOW MANY FALSE PROPHETS CAME ?
which fruits r u talking about?
the propeht Muhammed is stiill found in your written bible. God makes people keep his name in the bible. dont you know that?
Btw, u cant believe ur bible that people write it themselves
Batman needs to understand that one person's belief system is not the same as the next persons. If he could respect that, it would save his needless attacks on Christianity. This equally applies to the fundamental Christian nutters on this forum. Your version of God is YOUR version of God. These are YOUR truths. They are facts to you, not anyone else. If you can't respect this, you have no right to demand respect from anyone else.
I partially agree that your views are your views yet I think that the truth is one, but your concept of truth is your concept of the truth, that's how you need to acknowledge the truth I think refinning the concept and stricting the rules, but still the truth will remain the truth .... it can't be your truth other wise then we are all in a fantasy world and there is no need for any debate as long as we all have our truths. I also think that the more harder the truth can be the more harder the seek for the truth should be.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Mohammed was a pedophile ,we know that. he was married to a 9 year old.
who was this 9 years old did he go and married her, wasn't she his best friend daughter and wasn't it his best friend offer to marry her and ain't it arguable that it can be 15 years at least when he met her as a man and wife for the first time from some fine scholars, isn't pedophilia forbidden in islam, isn't muslims don't marry for fun or play, we are order not to mate on the wrong place in the quran didn't we? answer the questions and you will find your reply
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Batman needs to understand that one person's belief system is not the same as the next persons. If he could respect that, it would save his needless attacks on Christianity. This equally applies to the fundamental Christian nutters on this forum. Your version of God is YOUR version of God. These are YOUR truths. They are facts to you, not anyone else. If you can't respect this, you have no right to demand respect from anyone else. [/qb][/QUOTE]I partially agree that your views are your views yet I think that the truth is one, but your concept of truth is your concept of the truth, that's how you need to acknowledge the truth I think refinning the concept and stricting the rules, but still the truth will remain the truth .... it can't be your truth other wise then we are all in a fantasy world and there is no need for any debate as long as we all have our truths. I also think that the more harder the truth can be the more harder the seek for the truth should be. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Bibo1978, I agree with your last statement to a point. When it comes to religion, the truth isn't so easy to find. One person's views may be the complete opposite of another. Both believe that their version is the ABSOLUTE truth. You see this debate between extreme and moderate believers in several faiths, especially on this forum. You also see it between faiths. Look what seeking the truth results in, here? Several faiths being accused of sanctioning child abuse and scriptures dragged out to prove it.
It makes a mockery of the truth, faith, belief, yet it goes on and on and on.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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An important note: As Muslims, we do not embrace the pedophilia, rape, terrorism and all of the other forms of evil that exist in the Bible, nor do we believe that the Prophets of Allah Almighty, peace and blessings be upon all of them, ever committed such cruel acts that are falsely attributed to them.
We're only exposing the corrupted bible and the evil that exists in it.
At least when God chose MOther Mary to concieve Prophet Isse IMMACULATELY she was of child bearing age.
Oh but go back to the webpage and this is the contents:
Further Topic Research: Select a Search: --------------------------- Site Titles Noble Quran Hadiths Syntax help
An important note: As Muslims, we do not embrace the pedophilia, rape, terrorism and all of the other forms of evil that exist in the Bible, nor do we believe that the Prophets of Allah Almighty, peace and blessings be upon all of them, ever committed such cruel acts that are falsely attributed to them.
We're only exposing the corrupted bible and the evil that exists in it.
After you finish this article, also please visit:
Prophet Muhammad is a Murderer for KILLING the enemies? WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE'S PROPHETS' MURDERS that were blessed by GOD?
Cutting the hands and feet of the enemies in the Bible, and hanging their live bodies on trees until they DIE.
Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible. Also, the age consent in US and Europe was as low as 10:
The sections of this article are:
1- Pedophilia and killing of "suckling infants" in the Bible! 2- Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex and marriage in both the Talmud and the Bible. 3- Age consent in our world today only 100 years ago to girls as young as 10. 4- Rebuttals. See my rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's response.
1- Pedophilia and killing "suckling infants" in the Bible!
Ironically, one of the Bible's 10 pillars or ten Commandments says: "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)." Yet, innocent children and non-virgin women were ordered to be killed by the mass, perhaps in thousands! 3-year old slave girls were also ordered to be raped by Moses.
This section is divided into 2 sub-sections:
1- Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands!
2- The pedophilic verses against 3-year old girls.
1- Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands:
1 Samuel 15:2-4 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:
Psalm 137:8-9 8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us. 9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!
I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands! It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!
I challenge any Jew or Christian to produce ONE, JUST ONE Noble Verse from the Muslims' Noble Quran that condones killing of innocent children, women or even hostile enemy men who drop their weapons before Muslims (surrender).
See the Rights of Prisoners of War in Islam.
Further more, Allah Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"
Yet, we see mass slaughters and even rape of 3-year old girls as seen in the verses below in the man-altered, man-fabricated and man-corrupted bible.
Based on this Noble Verse, I can safely conclude, as a Muslim, that the slaughtering stories of innocent people in the corrupted bible were nothing but man-made lies and laws that were put in the Mouth of Allah Almighty:
"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"
2- The Pedophilic Verses against 3-year old girls:
The pedophilic Biblical verses are Numbers 31:17-18 and Numbers 31:35-40. Below, you will see DETAILED HISTORY on these SPECIFIC verses from the Jewish Talmud explaining the pedophilia that took place against the 3-year old slave girls under the direct command of Moses.
While Christians are not obligated to follow the laws of the Talmud in their social lives, but the historical FACTS that exist in the Talmud about the Biblical verses Numbers 31:17-18 and Numbers 31:35-40 below, and how the "BIBLE FOLLOWERS" during those days were mostly pedophiles who literally forced sex on 3-year old girls after Moses' supposed 'Divine' order is clear indication that the Bible condones pedophilia.
Christians are not the only "Bible Followers". Jews are too!
You also need to keep in mind that Christians are not the only "Bible followers". Jews are too, and what ever they did counts for and against the Bible.
So while the pedophilic mentioned verses don't exactly specify the 3 years old minimum age limit, but they most certainly don't condemn it, and according to the Talmud's detailed elaborations on the verses, as shown below, and what actually took place during their events, the verses actually allowed it, AS MOSES HIMSELF ALLOWED IT!
Moses' Commands for pedophilia against 3-year old slave girls do count against the Bible!
As shown in the quotes below: "....The Tannaďtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of MOSES to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children...."
"....According to the Tannaďte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]...."
"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."
"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."
The detailed quotes, elaborations and bibliography are in the next section below.
2- Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible:
Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
Children
Sometimes one has to read a passage twice to believe what has been written in the Sacred Books of Judaism: what has been decreed the way to a holy life by the "sages of blessed memory... whose words are the natural sounds of Judaism" [131]:
Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4]. Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]
R. Nahman bar Isaac said. "They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does]." For said R. Zira, "I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: 'From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]'? And he said to me, 'On the day on which he is born.' But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, 'From the age of nine years and one day.' And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, 'Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, "From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day."' [37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15]." Said Rabina, "Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety." That is self-evident! Abodah Zarah 36B-37A [133]
The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah (filth):
A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old." And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility. If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye. (Mishnah Niddah 5:4) [134]
Thus, one "of the many important issues worked out in the Mishnah concerns proper conduct with women," [135] and the "entire society of Judaism – that is, the community formed by the Torah – found in the Talmud those modes of thought and inquiry, those media of order and value, that guided the formation of public affairs and private life as well." [136]
While it is reassuring to see there was at least some limit as to what the sages would declare holy and moral, this ruling had severe implications on the interpretation of other topics as well. The Tannaďtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17). [This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man... But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a Proselyte girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood." [137]
According to the Tannaďte Rabbis, Moses therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]
[132] Ibid., vol.XXIII.B, Tractate Sanhedrin 1984, 150. See also vol.XIX.A, Tractate Qiddushin 10a-b, 1992, 33. "Menstruating" here of course refers to the ritual "flux uncleanness" described in Lev.15.
[134] J. Neusner, The Talmud of Babylonia. A complete outline, Part IV. The Division of Holy Things. B. Number 37. 1995, 704.
[135] Neusner 1993, 41.
[136] Neusner 1995, 7.
[137] Kuhn 1959, §157, 652f. My translation. In general, proselytes are not allowed to marry into the priesthood.
[138] Ibid., §157, footnote 86, 653.
The following was sent to me by brother Johnny Bravo; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
In the Torah (In the Book of Numbers in the Bible), after the conquest of Midian and Moab, and the great venereal plague, Moses (peace be on him) ordered that all the women "who have known a man" be killed but that "all the young girls, who have not known a man by lying with him" be kept alive for the Israelites.
Since the only females left fit for marriage and wholesome relations were prepubescent virgins, a Jewish law concerning child marriage was enacted. That law is found in the Babylonian Talmud:
"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.'
Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.
Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "
Is the GOD of Israel a pedophile? Quick side Note: Numbers 31:35-40 "[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.......of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls]."
Even though GOD Almighty's share of the 32 virgin girls is metaphoric, meaning that He didn't come down and have sex with them, but if any wants to call Prophet Muhammad a pedophile or womanizer for marrying (not forcing into sex) a young girl and marrying multiple women throughout his life, then he should not only call his Biblical Prophets as such, but also the GOD of Israel Himself!
Anyway continuing with the above Talmudic quotes, today, the Jewish law for marriage, sets the age of consent for females at 11. (Consent is only one way of marriage) I do not know if modern Jewish law still allows (in theory) betrothal by intercourse as it was practiced in ancient times.
Thirty years ago, the renowned sexologist R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwardes said in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression (_The Cradle of Erotica_, Julian Press, New York:1962) said, "Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty."
I emailed a friend of mine, a former Jew who speaks Hebrew, and he further gave me more information regarding the Jewish view to marriage:
"I have just called up a seriously orthodox friend, a dealer in manuscripts with whom I do business, and a good fellow, to double check my response, and we are in perfect agreement. He runs a strictly orthodox and observant home and life, dresses in black, etc...I checked with him about it, as my own copy of the Code of Jewish Law is the shortened version, known as the "Kitzur Shulchan Aruch". The full book is the "Shulchan Aruch", which means "The Well-Set Table" (The Jews have a talent for clever book-titles).
This is the reference of brother Johnny Bravo's Talmudic quotes.
A girl must be 12 years old for marriage, but a 3-year old may be betrothed with the father's approval. As for the permissibility of marriage to a minor (katanah) by coition...*Fuggedaboudit!!* as they say in the Mafia. My friend assures me that *humanitarian treatment* is the final authority. If a man did that, that is, had intercourse with a minor for purposes of marriage,it would be considered a crime, even if the father approved. A girl that young would be considered unable to make a momentous decision like that. And even if she were older than 12, if it were done by force, as if she were a Moabite captive, they would be made to divorce once the circumstances were known.
Furthermore, and very importantly, the Jews are *required* to observe the "deen hammalchut"...the laws of the country in which they reside, before applying their own halacha, or laws. So the short answer is, yes, marriage by coition is considered legal, but not with a katanah, and never by force. Betrothal to a katanah is OK, but the bride must reach puberty before actual marriage and consummation. Also, according to my own exceedingly imperfect knowledge, nowhere in the Talmud is betrothal to a minor by intercourse *recommended*. If all this were permissible in the days of the Mishna, well, those days are gone."
3- Age consent in our world today only 100 years ago to girls as young as 10:
The following was sent to me by brother Johnny Bravo; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
Assalam Alaiqum Brother Osama.
I thought you might find the following information of some use pertaining to the marriage of Hazrat Ayesha (RAA) with Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). I took this info from the soc.religion.islam newsgroup and it is written by various knowledgeable Muslims informing that the age of consent in the USA was 10 hardly 100 years ago and 11 in the UK, Talmud allowing 3 year olds to get married! etc. :-
"(And there is evidence that Ayesha was substantially older. That some of our ancient scholars preferred the younger age shows, in fact, that they did not consider marriage at that age to be reprehensible, otherwise they would have preferred the evidence for a later marriage and consummation.)
At the time the marriage was arranged, Muhammad had not left Makka; he was not the leader of a powerful community; indeed, his life was in danger. I raise this point because it is asserted, sometimes, that, essentially, he could have whatever he wanted. Rather, if this marriage had been an outrage to the community, it would have been *very* harmful to his cause."
Above comments by Abdulrahman Lomax.
The age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)
The Prophet's contemporaries (both enemies and friends) clearly accepted the Prophet's marriage to `Aisha without any problem. We see the evidence for this by the lack of criticism against the marriage until modern times. However, a change in culture caused the change in our times today.
A 40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile" in the USA today, but not in China today (where the age of consent is 14), nor in the USA last century. Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture.
***** In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm)
As for the reasons why we age of consent just seems to get higher and higher, Essentially, we need more education just to survive in today's society, and this takes much more time. This additional education we need to function in today's society seems to me to be the main cause of the increase in the age of consent in many 20th century societies. The Common Law age of consent was 10. The French penal code raised the age from 11 to 13 only a century ago. In England, it was only in 1929 (70 years ago) that the ancient Christian minimum age for the marriage of females, which was 12, was abandoned. The early rock and roll singer Jerry Lee Lewis was considerably older than his 13 cousin whom he married in all legality in Arkansas. Since then, the age there has been raised to 16. That marriage lasted for about 15 years and there was never any other "scandal" associated with Jerry Lee Lewis. The story is quite different, however, for his cousin Jimmy Swaggart (the well-known and disgraced tele-evangelist) who married a woman his own age but later publicly confessed that he was an adulterer and a whoremonger.
In the seventh century, 3 year old girls were burned to death or tortured in Europe for copulating with demons, witches and sorcerers. Strong sexual passions were attributed to the youngest children. Even Jean Bodin, one of the greatest legal authorities of his time, said that the appropriate age of consent for a female was 6. (I do not mean to suggest that 3 year olds did in fact have sexual relations with demons. It is however interesting to see that at that time it was publicly believed that child-adult relations were the fault of seductive children who sought out mature men rather than today's popular belief that it is instead pedophiliac adults who prey on innocent, unsuspecting children.)
In the US (an example of a prominent western country, since the west had the greatest effect on the world in the last couple of centuries.) They considered a seven year old female competent on making decisions regarding sex, though it was raised later on (in 1886, after attempts to raise the age of consent, Delaware was the only state to retain the common law age of seven, while twenty five states set the minimum age at a mere ten.) In older times, children were not perceived in the same sense that we perceive them, but the perception was changed gradually, which is due to a great extent to industrialization, and of course sigmund freud and others came along with their theories and supported these changes in social thinking (the word adolescent itself was introduced as recently as 1904.)
4- Rebuttals:
My rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's "Osama Abdallah's Obsession with Pedophilia in the Bible" article.
Refutation to the preposterous LIES of Jochen Katz about his Bible not containing inhumane murders but its Prophets!
Back to Women section.
X-Rated Pornography in the Bible.
The Marriage of Aisha by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
Refutation to the preposterous LIES of Jochen Katz about his Bible not containing inhumane murders from its Prophets!
Prophet Muhammad is a Murderer for KILLING the enemies? WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE'S PROPHETS' MURDERS that were blessed by GOD? Cutting the hands and feet of the enemy in the Bible.
In otherwords its not the actual words in the Bible or Torah. But words reportively from Rabbis, yet the comments of these imaginary Rabbis cannot be verified.
No wonder Batty_boy is quoting this website! Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
so where is the actual bible and Torah you claim it's to comment on it?
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_Eltawheed(oneness of God): so where is the actual bible and Torah you claim it's to comment on it?
According to the webpage the claim about its okay to screw 3 year old children and kill them is via personal communications with a bogus Rabbi.
Its all made up. Its not in the Bible nor the Torah. Its a factious lie and most anyone with an IQ over 90 can tell its a lie.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_Eltawheed(oneness of God): so where is the actual bible and Torah you claim it's to comment on it?
According to the webpage the claim about its okay to screw 3 year old children and kill them is via personal communications with a bogus Rabbi.
Its all made up. Its not in the Bible nor the Torah. Its a factious lie and most anyone with an IQ over 90 can tell its a lie.
a lie i know because their book is corrupted this proves my claim that their book is corrupted
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Just tell me what fruit did christianity offered to the world, is in it the crusaide and the inquisition, we have a better record than yours we have always developed human nature to the best
when we are talking about this standard that Jesus put to examine the false prophet then we have to apply it on the teaching of the prophet and what the religion is teaching the followers to do.
When you check the Gospel/Injeel you will not find anything inciting to kill or fighting in wars against anybody but unlike that you will find Jesus teaching to love your enemy and to bless who cursing you and I think you have debated with so many before and you are fully aware about what inside the Gospel and the teaching about the love and the peaceful.
Then when you talking about the cross crusade was the fruits of Christianity it means you are cheating yourself first and your Muslims readers second.
Because you are aware that who did these wars they were not following the teaching of Jesus and the cross that was putting on their banners was not a sign of war but was a sign of redemption and the sacrifice of Jesus for others,then it's clear that they put the cross for their desires only and to give their wars the religion colour
Therefore your example is fully wrong because is not related to Jesus's teaching.
And when you talk that you have developed human natures Just give me one example from the Muslims country surrounding us and to check how their citizens are living and how they are treated from their dictator's governments
so now would you like to talk about Quran and Mohamed's teaching to check if Muslims is following the teaching of their prophet or not?
Note that our homes are from the steel that christians discovered and Manufactured not from the glass that we also discovered
I wasn't saying that this is jesus teaching which is not what it is now, I won't go to this conflict yet I will only mention a word "go and read the dead sea scrolls". Yet I will answer you about islam, Islam was the first culture to treat people equal no difference between white, black , rich or poor. Islam was the first culture that let people hold there believe in whatever they want without any kind of disgrace or torture. Islam was the first religion to encourage for knowledge and science, and asks its followers to seek for science and knowledge in Quran and Sunnah. In islam scientest are the second grade after prophets Islam was the first culture to free woman from the un-equal treatment, islam never condemned woman of things that she didn't do we never said that god have put some kind of disgrace in women, "The church in dark ages have looked as islam as over freeing woman, now the west look at us as if we are improsoning woman" .. it is a shame that when moderate is treated with extermist as extreme. Islam is the one religion that have always hold and steady in its judgement no matter what the time was unless for some minor changes, look at the church now and a millinium ago, if the church breaching a millinium ago is seen the they would have been hericates and now you look at the church preachings as fundemalistics. Our society now is much better than other society with the same dictators and povery status I am not saying we are perfect yet all what we have here of defauxs comes from people whom have lost there morals, just for demonstration I have had an Argintinian friend and one day he told me he is amazed that he can park his car in the road something he would never do in Argintina. I am not condemning Argintina I like the people a lot but I am only showing you what our culture fruit is like regarding the poverty and ignorance we are at. I believe in jesus preaching more than any christian would do, actually all muslims do believe in his preaching. Now the europian culture is not related to christianity, and it is not made of steel just check where you are going, so west is not christianity although christianity is trying to change there religion to show that this is there preachings, on the other hand islam is against hypocritic changes. I never would have wanted to say such words but such arrogance and in-appropriate condemnation have forced me to do this, I am not against your faith but for sure just don't through on us something before looking at yourself, I wasn't the one whom said what is that the fruit of islam is evil .. and for sure I never stated in the above that the fruit of christianity is evil, what I care for the most is morality and if christianity offers morality which it does in most of the cases then I will always support the morals.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_Eltawheed(oneness of God): so where is the actual bible and Torah you claim it's to comment on it?
According to the webpage the claim about its okay to screw 3 year old children and kill them is via personal communications with a bogus Rabbi.
Its all made up. Its not in the Bible nor the Torah. Its a factious lie and most anyone with an IQ over 90 can tell its a lie.
Eventhough you are the obnoxious Sono ......
I MUST AGREE WITH YOU IN THIS POST
ALSO ANYONE LIKE ARROW WHO BELIEVES THAT OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS A CRIMINAL & A PEDOPHILE IS ALSO WRONG & HAVE AN INSIFFICIENT IQ
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sheikh_Eltawheed(oneness of God): so where is the actual bible and Torah you claim it's to comment on it?
According to the webpage the claim about its okay to screw 3 year old children and kill them is via personal communications with a bogus Rabbi.
Its all made up. Its not in the Bible nor the Torah. Its a factious lie and most anyone with an IQ over 90 can tell its a lie.
Eventhough you are the obnoxious Sono ......
I MUST AGREE WITH YOU IN THIS POST
ALSO ANYONE LIKE ARROW WHO BELIEVES THAT OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS A CRIMINAL & A PEDOPHILE IS ALSO WRONG & HAVE AN INSIFFICIENT IQ
Actually it was about Moses declaring it halaal to kill 3 year old children because at one time children were betrothed at that age.
Personally I know a few Syrians who's families had made committments to marry their children at age of "majority = college graduation" in kindergarten. Now they are married and happy. Being distant cousins might help concrete their relationship in their Syrian culture back home so they aren't given any lip for being entirely raised in the west.
I don't see anything in the Bible to where Moses said this, but I can see where it might've been useful to use 3 as the cut off age. Even the Pharoah had a decree to kill every male child under the age of 3 in order to wipe out Moses. Unknowingly to him his own daughter had adopted Moses and Moses survived the slaughter decree.
Personally I think the persons who created this "answering christianity" website aren't Muslims at all, but athiests. Why would a pious Muslim create such lies about a Muslim Prophet. Moses is Muslim. Which somehow in the pent-up sexually oppressed frenzy our virgin batty-boy didn't realize he was committing blasphemy against an actual Muslim Prophet. Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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Mr.Sheikh I have mentioned before that you will find the words giving you different meaning, but what made me sad that you are only searching for a few words that you think it will embarrassing us but I think due to your non reading from the beginning to the end, you will cheat your self only all the way, and do you know who is behind that? Is not the God of course.
Before reading the Old Testament you have to know that you are reading a history book about old nations from thousand years and specially the story of Israeli people. You will find everything were happening as per their human nature, and how God was treating those people as per their limited mind that time.
I know that you are wondering now about that? But this why we are calling it the old Testament and this is why the New testament came to heal the hearts of those people where Jesus told them for your cruel hearts God gave you that law.
So now I will give just short hints for some of what you mentioned because for giving you full explanations for everything it needs long articles as it's a part of a history and you can't just get some sentences out the context and asking for an explanation.
I know that you have a problem with the word Sex and breast but these what God created.
quote:If you see a pretty woman among the captives and would like her for a wife, then just bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can "let her go." 21:11-14
If you want to marry a woman from the captives you can but you have to free her after that because you don't own her
quote:You can't go to church if your testicles are damaged or your penis has been cut off. 23:1
As per the tradition of the Jewish and as a part from the purity to enter their church.
quote:Samson wants to have sex with his wife in the bedroom, but his father won't let him. 15:1
So what?
quote:"Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her." 16:1
This what happened do you have objection about the history?.
quote:The sons of Eli had sex with women "at the door of the tabernacle." 2:22
Having sex wasn't strange that time with a strange woman(and till now) but God created for a special purpose which is a part of the holy marriage but the humans are using it for their pleasure from thousand years.
quote:Since women are inherently dirty, the woman that "pleased the king" the most must be "purified" for twelve months before she can be made queen. 2:9-12
Jewish's traditions" their view about woman is close to Islam little bit"
quote:Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times." 5:18
This has been mentioned in the proverbs which written by Solomon/Suliman to the new youth, that they have to keep close to their wives and satisfy their love with only them and to get away from the strange women
You should also mention the verse after that 5:19 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman,and embrace the bosom of a stranger? Do you understand the meaning now? I hope .
quote:"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." 4:5
you should completed till the end " which feed among the lilies " I told you before that the word breast has different meaning ,can you tell us if there is a breast can feed among the lilies? It's only rhetorical meaning you won't understand by your actually mind now.
quote:"We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts ... But my breasts [are] like towers." 8:8-10
You should completed from the beginning till the end
8:8 We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for(to be asked for marriage)?
8:9 If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar
8:10 I am a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour(she is asking her self if her bridegroom will like her now).
I will leave it to the smart reader who can understand the beautiful of the meaning.
I think I have shown you that your way is weak with the people who understand the bible and read it many times,I strongly advice you to concentrate in Quran as a beginning and if you like to get more details about the old prophets's stories and Israeli people you can go to the bible as a refernce. GBY Brother.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jerusalem still wasn't satisfied after having sex with the the well-endowed Egyptians (v.26), so she had sex with the Assyrians too. Yet she still wasn't satisfied. So she had sex with the men of Canaan and Chaldea, but still was not satisfied. 16:28-29
God calls Jerusalem "an imperious whorish woman." 16:30
God says that Jerusalem has sex with strangers, hiring them to "come in unto thee on every side." 16:32-33
Because she is such a filthy harlot, God will expose her nakedness before all of her lovers. 16:35-36
After exposing her nakedness, God will give her "blood in fury and jealousy" and strip her naked once more. 16:38-41
Information from God about discovering the nakedness of fathers, committing adultery with neighbor's wives, sex with menstruating women, daughters-in-law, sisters, etc. 22:1-11
God (or Hosea?) tells his children that their mother is a whore who is not his wife. He asks them to tell their mother to "put away her whoredoms" and "her adulteries from between her breasts" or he'll "strip her naked ... and slay her with thirst." 2:2-3
Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. 1:27 1 Corinthians
Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." 2:22
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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Father Servant don't continue because he will not understand anything, you are wasting your time and at the end he will try to check another way which it will be endless, his concepts is different and it will be hard for him to understand by that way.
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Father Servant don't continue because he will not understand anything, you are wasting your time and at the end he will try to check another way which it will be endless, his concepts is different and it will be hard for him to understand by that way.
is he your father? Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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Even the simple word you don't understant I am not wondering now why the Jewish crucified Jesus. I am calling him father because he is a good reader to the bible and he is very kindly with you. Have you got it now,I hope
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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Its a pitty what this is going too I regret that I have posted in such a debate, and I truely would never want to offend anybody on this board or his believe, I am sorry if anyone feels so through my couple of posts here .. Yet I want to note that we as muslims we never debate with this way I have attended hundereds of 'Gom'aa' speech, and I have never heard any 'Imam' bashing Christianity unless he was answer a christianity claim about our religion or culture. Yet when I look at christians priests I found them across the history bashing Islam, Even if with no logic, the same is with how west looks to islam, I have never seen an 'Imam' saying that those people are the people of vice the don't back virtue or ... etc. Except if he is backing up a cause where the west have accused Islam or mocked him. It is strange to you that we can accept you without mocking and bashing .. yet I have seen here some people that are 'playing' this role I hope if they are true muslims or anyway related to islam they would stick to our virtues and our islam call for never insulting anybody's religion or bashing it. Please, Mr. Shiek ElTawheed, can you check our religion and comply to god's order if you are a real muslim.
6. The Cattle 108. Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did
May allah help us all to his way of right.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: I Yet I want to note that we as muslims we never debate with this way I have attended hundereds of 'Gom'aa' speech, and I have never heard any 'Imam' bashing Christianity unless he was answer a christianity claim about our religion or culture. Yet when I look at christians priests I found them across the history bashing Islam, Even if with no logic, the same is with how west looks to islam, I have never seen an 'Imam' saying that those people are the people of vice the don't back virtue or ... etc. Except if he is backing up a cause where the west have accused Islam or mocked him.
Well then you must be listening in a a few Imams and tuning out 90% of them.
But in the event that I go to a different church other than the one I usually go to nothing at all is said about Muslims in the Middle East. Actually the church I was raised in the Pastor did some of his Phd studies in Jerusalem and made sure we understood that Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God.
The Reverends or Priests you are refering to are actually televangelists who have their theology education from a non-acredited college. Actually most of them gained more classroom experience in drama coaching than in theology lectures.
If that is your idea of a Christian theologian then I can understand why the Mullahs in KSA and the Mullahs who makes millions on cassette tapes influence you in the manner that they do.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I am wondering Sheikh that you still using the site of answering-Christianity for confirmation After his administrator converted to Christianity
check the testimony of the administrator ANTHONY TARASCA which posted before in ES.
posted
Shiekh, We are not like those guys our technique should be just show our rightious and our culture to whom wanna listen or see, and reply to there dilucive words and show what they are promoting for. Or that's what I think a muslim should do, they are of no harm for Islam. People are free to believe in whatever and say whatever. A sane man is a man with a cause and a reason.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: I am wondering Sheikh that you still using the site of answering-Christianity for confirmation After his administrator converted to Christianity
check the testimony of the administrator ANTHONY TARASCA which posted before in ES.
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