quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??
Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise
Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later
Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..
Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role." http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back.
Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.
Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin'
In not a implication, rather a suggestion.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers. Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years.. What a clown.
your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it.
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.
Keep entertaining me, Clown.
You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.
lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories. _The Banu Sulaym were blacks _The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century. _Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.
You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?
Giiirl
Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!
Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.
: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq
BOOOO YAH!
Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.
Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!
Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!
"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century
if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case. Once again, you fail.
Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.
BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.
NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!
You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ?
I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.
Posts: 558 | From: forum | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??
Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise
Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later
Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..
Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role." http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back.
Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.
Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin'
Its not a matter of implication. Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).
They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.
Fair-skinned people have a gene pool that comes rather recently from Europe and were NOT CALLED BERBERS and only speak Berbers. PERIOD!
Masmuda occupied the coast of North Africa 100 0 years ago. That is what is fact, not implied. Not people that looked like Europeans.
“Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” Yaacov Lev, (1987). Army, regime, and society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365.
you can run but there is no where to hide.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Speaking of Slavery..
OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before. Robert Davis
In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.
Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan). “Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”
“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”
Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.
“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”
During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.
Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.
Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.
Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.
The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.
Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.
So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.
“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”
Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.
The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.
Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.
“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.
While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.
Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.
“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa
Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.
It also helps explain this..
^^^ Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..
The Slavers...
Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers. Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years.. What a clown.
your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it.
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.
Keep entertaining me, Clown.
You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.
lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories. _The Banu Sulaym were blacks _The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century. _Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.
You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?
Giiirl
Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!
Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.
: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq
BOOOO YAH!
Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.
Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!
Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!
"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century
if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case. Once again, you fail.
Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.
BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.
NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!
You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ?
I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.
From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come?
And how did they call Berber slaves?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??
Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise
Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later
Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..
Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role." http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back.
Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.
Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin'
Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).
They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.
Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!
"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.
Lets talk about GENETICS, would ya?
Posts: 558 | From: forum | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers. Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years.. What a clown.
your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it.
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.
Keep entertaining me, Clown.
You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.
lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories. _The Banu Sulaym were blacks _The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century. _Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.
You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?
Giiirl
Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!
Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.
: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq
BOOOO YAH!
Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.
Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!
Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!
"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century
if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case. Once again, you fail.
Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.
BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.
NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!
You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ?
I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.
From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come?
Ask It the Clown Posts: 558 | From: forum | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??
Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise
Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later
Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..
Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role." http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back.
Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.
Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin'
Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).
They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.
Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!
"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.
Lets talk about GENETICS, would ya?
Are you going to post the gene pools?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!
Sticks and stones. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers. Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years.. What a clown.
your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it.
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.
Keep entertaining me, Clown.
You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.
lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories. _The Banu Sulaym were blacks _The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century. _Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.
You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?
Giiirl
Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!
Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.
: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq
BOOOO YAH!
Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.
Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!
Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!
"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century
if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case. Once again, you fail.
Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.
BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.
NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!
You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ?
I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.
From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come?
Ask It the Clown
I don't understand, can you eleborate?
Thanks.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ?
I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown. From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come from
Don't ask me why Iraqis and Syrians call black Arabs abeed today. I 'm not talking about centuries ago when Arabs called fair-skinned Syrians the slaves.
Don't confuse ancient Arabs with modern Syrians and Arabized people - dog of a clown.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
The Gnawa are only 8& of Morocco
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Speaking of Slavery..
OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before. Robert Davis
In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.
Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan). “Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”
“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”
Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.
“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”
During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.
Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.
Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.
Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.
The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.
Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.
So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.
“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”
Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.
The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.
Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.
“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.
While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.
Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.
“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa
Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.
It also helps explain this..
^^^ Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..
The Slavers...
Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.
Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology
-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient -Mediterranean and the Near East -Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture -Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance
"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."
North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius" Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Show me the documentation that the Tamegroute Berbers, the Taureg Berbers, etc are descended of African Slaves as you keep suggesting, Funny how you easily accept Black Berbers are being descendants of slaves but cant fathom White Berbers being descendants of slaves.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
yes - they confuse the Masmuda Berbers with Gnawa all of the time. Because they are virtually the same color. BOTH WERE BLACK! As shown by all historical texts.
people who dress in inigo like the Masmuda are usually not anything but Berrbers.
I guess these Berbers or Masmuda will also be disavowing the northern Berbers like the Tuareg have recently done since Europeans are also trying to write them out of their heritage.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: North African
North African
North African
Jew
Arab
Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Disagree. Africanus looks like an Arab or Jew.
^^^ BTW, that Photo is of a Portuguese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians... [/QB][/QUOTE]
The Portuguese took West African slaves to South Portugal. A lot of people in the Southern part of Portugal have West African ancestry. Beside that point, they did cross prior to that. I will post you a study.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??
Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise
Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later
Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..
Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role." http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back.
Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.
Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin'
Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).
They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.
Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!
"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.
mtDNA Total Eurasian lineages (H, HV, R0, J, T, U (without U6), K, N1, N2, X) : 50-90% Total sub-Saharan lineages (L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5) : 3-45% Total North African lineages (U6, M1) : 0-30%
NB : U6 has been in North Africa for more than 30,000 years old. U6 is of eurasian origin and only common to Berbers
Posts: 558 | From: forum | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: “We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa
Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.
It also helps explain this..
The Slavers...
Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.
Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology
-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient -Mediterranean and the Near East -Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture -Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance
"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."
North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius" Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
Actually this is incredible proof that I had not known existed. I was only going by what has been said about pottery and jewelry in Kabylia.
Will definitely need to check out this article thoroughly.
Thanks for your invaluable and well researched input. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??
Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise
Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later
Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..
Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role." http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back.
Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.
Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin'
Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).
They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.
Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!
"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.
mtDNA Total Eurasian lineages (H, HV, R0, J, T, U (without U6), K, N1, N2, X) : 50-90% Total sub-Saharan lineages (L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5) : 3-45% Total North African lineages (U6, M1) : 0-30%
NB : U6 has been in North Africa for more than 30,000 years old. U6 is of eurasian origin and only common to Berbers
U6, form my understanding is 9%, and is not in all Berbers.
But I am not aware of 30.000 Years? What does it comprise with?
I see, you changed the image, and replaced it with a wiki?
Can you summaries them one by one in percentage, so I have a better understanding? From a credible source? Can you show me a credible source on genetics, instead of a wiki page?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Disagree. Africanus looks like an Arab or Jew. [/QUOTE]^^^ BTW, that Photo is of a Portuguese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians... [/QB][/QUOTE]
The Portuguese took West African slaves to South Portugal. A lot of people in the Southern part of Portugal have West African ancestry. Beside that point, they did cross prior to that. I will post you a study. [/QB][/QUOTE] The first painting is Leo Africanus who was born in Andalusia the others are mulattos and Arabized people who may or may not have Berber, Arab or Jewish genes.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!
Weird, because these numbers show different, somehow? How is that possible? Anyway, the Y-DNA shows more African. However, the question remains, where is the DNA from the South, "where they took slaves from" as is "suggest" by some scholars.
Anyway,
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were called BLACK come from DUMMY!
Dog of a clown - You and other black Africans are still black with all of your Eurasiatic mixture today.
"It is necessary also to distinguish between the medieval Hadareb (the Bellou) and their modern counterparts so unflatteringly described by 19th century visitors to the Sudan, mainly Arteiga, Ashraf and others, who by then were predominantly Beja by blood, but including also large numbers of half-caste Beja, the result of intermarriage with Turks, Egyptians, Circassians, Bosnians, etc...” (p. 64).
I don't care how much red henna you Beja use in your usually woolly hair.
I prefer also not to confuse modern Berber-speakers a highly heterogeneous group with the less modified remnants of the Berbers.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: dana, Jari, you calling Dr. Clyde Winters Euroecentric now in his view on Berbers?? !!!
he broke down the Euro language connect
I don't rely on Dr. Winters for my scholarship LYING _ss. if you prefer to that's your choice. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't know if the traits are recessive or not. Do know that sexual selection is accountable.
One of the colonialist accounts Dana alludes to: "... the inhabitants have a quite different Mein and Aspect from their Neighbors. For their Complections are so far from being swarthy, that They are fair and ruddy; and Their Hair, which among the other Kabyles, is of a dark Colour, is, with Them, of a deep Yellow. These Circumstances, (notwithstanding they are Mahometans, and speak the common Language only of the Kabylies) may induce us to take Them, if not for the Tribe mentioned by Procopius, yet at least for some Remnant or other of the Vandals, who notwithstanding they were dispossessed in His Time, of these strong Holds, and dispersed among the African Families, might have had several Opportunities afterwards of collecting Themselves into Bodies, and reinstating Themselves." T. Shaw Travels or Observations relating to Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant Oxford, 1738 p. 120
Shaw examples colonialist notice of fair/ruddy Kabylies as a minority among the swarthy majority. But Procopius cannot reckon for them because he located his whites in the Sahara-Sahel not the Tell (~ Sahara-Mediterranean). Shaw concludes on the likelyhood of Vandal remnants married into African families and others marrying mostly their own. Yet all of them are completely assimilated as shown by language and religion of a kind loaded with cultural accoutrements.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: ... you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??
The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja. They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.
The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Don't know if the traits are recessive or not. Do know that sexual selection is accountable.
One of the colonialist accounts Dana alludes to: "... the inhabitants have a quite different Mein and Aspect from their Neighbors. For their Complections are so far from being swarthy, that They are fair and ruddy; and Their Hair, which among the other Kabyles, is of a dark Colour, is, with Them, of a deep Yellow. These Circumstances, (notwithstanding they are Mahometans, and speak the common Language only of the Kabylies) may induce us to take Them, if not for the Tribe mentioned by Procopius, yet at least for some Remnant or other of the Vandals, who notwithstanding they were dispossessed in His Time, of these strong Holds, and dispersed among the African Families, might have had several Opportunities afterwards of collecting Themselves into Bodies, and reinstating Themselves." T. Shaw Travels or Observations relating to Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant Oxford, 1738 p. 120
Shaw examples colonialist notice of fair/ruddy Kabylies as a minority among the swarthy majority. But Procopius cannot reckon for them because he located his whites in the Sahara-Sahel not the Tell (~ Sahara-Mediterranean). Shaw concludes on the likelyhood of Vandal remnants married into African families and others marrying mostly their own. Yet all of them are completely assimilated as shown by language and religion of a kind loaded with cultural accoutrements.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: ... you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??
The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja. They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.
The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.
The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.
These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!
Weird, because these numbers show different, somehow? How is that possible? Anyway, the Y-DNA shows more African. However, the question remains, where is the DNA from the South, "where they took slaves from" as is "suggest" by some scholars.
Anyway,
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
There is more than 35,000 years, a wave of eurasians [cro magnons] entered in North Africa. It believed they bring the mtDNA U marker over there. In Fact, it appears that U mutated to U6 in North Africa , there is 30,000 years ago. Then a second wave (or more) of native african immigrants entered in North Africa from East Africa. (less than 20,000 years ago) The two population mixed.
Phoenicians, Turks, Romans, Vandals invasions had almost no influence in the berber genetic pool.
MTDNA U6 which is ONLY common to berbers and to North Africa, is one of their oldest genetic marker, if not the oldest.
Posts: 558 | From: forum | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!
Weird, because these numbers show different, somehow? How is that possible? Anyway, the Y-DNA shows more African. However, the question remains, where is the DNA from the South, "where they took slaves from" as is "suggest" by some scholars.
Anyway,
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
There is more than 35,000 years, a wave of eurasians [cro magnons] entered in North Africa. It believed they bring the mtDNA U marker over there. In Fact, it appears that U mutated to U6 in North Africa , there is 30,000 years ago. Then a second wave (or more) of native african immigrants entered in North Africa from East Africa. (less than 20,000 years ago) The two population mixed.
Phoenicians, Turks, Romans, Vandals invasions had almost no influence in the berber genetic pool.
MTDNA U6 which is ONLY common to berbers and to North Africa, is one of their oldest genetic marker, if not the oldest.
Wow, really, can you show me more of this?
I like to see anthropological sources, of these cro magnons in North Africa.
And what caused this mutation of mtDNA U6?
So nobody lived in North Africa before 35.000 Years ago?
"Phoenicians, Turks, Romans, Vandals invasions". What is the genepool of these groups?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Kokakola, why are in your post the Hg of sub Saharan Africans from the South missings?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
BTW, that Photo is of a Portugese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians.
Seriously we know that folks from North Africa did cross into Europe as we find evidence of Capsian culture in Spain Sicily. Likewise there was European megalitic culture on the North Afican coast. The thing is the tale of the tape show that coastal North Africa has been populated by Eurasians for at least 25,000 years coming from a back migration out of the Near East.
MORE wishful thinking. In fact it was the other way around.
Black people of Europe came back.
Spanish stone age rock art
Dna, I'm willing to be objective. Please provide the information on this... Website?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.
north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.
You can run but you can not hide.
“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)
That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.
Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!
Sticks and stones.
Again I don't dispute that European slaves were brought to North Africa. But I doubt that most of these went to Berbers. The records show that they went to the cities. If you have documentation to prove otherwise, please post it. I should point out that the highest frequencies of light hair and eyes are found among rural Berbers, not just Kabyle but Riffian, Chaoui etc, as opposed to the Arabized masses. Yet it would seem that it is the Arabized masses which asoorbed most of the foreign elements.
Also the studies have shown that much of the Eurasian Mtdna in North Africa dates back to the Ice Age. Can you possibly give me a reason why folks from Iberia couldn't have crossed into Africa at this time, other than the fact that fervenetly dislike the idea?
Furthermore it's intersting that an analysis of aborigine remains in the Canary I slands reveals the Guanche genetics to a great extent resemble that of North Africans with haplogroup E m81 being prevalent for males and U6 along with H and V in females. If the Guanche reached the Canaries in prehistoric times as is believed than H and V must have been in North Africa way before the Moors invaded Spain. Additionally many early accounts mention that some of the Guanche were fair with light hair, not unlike some berber tribes today. You would be very disingenous aand irresponsible to simply ignore this. The only way for you to maintain some credibility for your position is to shoot this down.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.
These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
We need to clarify we we say darker ones are we talking about swarty Middle Eastern looking types
like this
Or Blacks?
While you can certainly argue about the Kabyle asorbiong Vandals. What about the Chaoui?
Shluh Berbers?
Riffian?
Mozabites?
Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority. What do you suppose the orignal U6 carriers looked like coming out of the Near East?
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Kabyle people (in Kabyle: Iqvayliyen) are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber. In the late third century the Gaiserics, also known as the Vandals, a Germanic people and enemy of Rome, cornered in the Iberian(Spain) peninsula, had to find a place and an ally to escape the Roman chase through Gaul(France) and west-southwest. The snowy, cold and inaccessible highlands of Kabylia and its likewise enmity to Rome is thus a natural match. The population of the villages of the Highlands, also known as Djurdjura, suddenly doubled, as no less than 80 000 warriors with wives and children, i.e. families, filled the villages of Kabylia. Whereas the military forts were set on the lowers peaks closest to the sea, known as Lower Kabylia, around the modern Algerian province of Bejia (Vgayet in Kabyle), the residential regions were in the higher lands of the Dhurdjura, also known as Great Kabylia. Thus, began the dense population of Kabylia. Just days away by horse from Carthage, the Vandal-Numidian coalition successfully evicted Rome from North Africa. While this alliance earned the Numidians the Barbarians (Berberes fr.), by extension from their new allies, it also created the largest clan in the region. Kabyles to whom the term was exclusively assigned amongst north-Africans are indeed the largest ethnic group in North Africa. The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North African is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.
Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books
Obviously the larger population were Vandals. It was they who absorbed some of the indigenous African nomads in the area, these nomads becoming Berberized
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
What's left out is that the Vandals were crushed by the Byzantines. many of their men died and many more were expulsed and forced to serve under the Byzantines. The remainder of Vandals fled and and joined with the Berbers. Here is the rest of the story.
"Byzantine Emperor Justinian I declared war, with the stated intention of restoring Hilderic to the Vandal throne. While an expedition was en route, a large part of the Vandal army and navy was led by Tzazo, Gelimer's brother, to Sardinia to deal with a rebellion. As a result, the armies of the Eastern Empire commanded by Belisarius were able to land unopposed 10 miles (16 km) from Carthage. Gelimer quickly assembled an army,[29] and met Belisarius at the Battle of Ad Decimum; the Vandals were winning the battle until Gelimer's brother Ammatas and nephew Gibamund fell in battle. Gelimer then lost heart and fled. Belisarius quickly took Carthage while the surviving Vandals fought on.[30]
On December 15, 533, Gelimer and Belisarius clashed again at the Battle of Tricamarum, some 20 miles (32 km) from Carthage. Again, the Vandals fought well but broke, this time when Gelimer's brother Tzazo fell in battle. Belisarius quickly advanced to Hippo, second city of the Vandal Kingdom, and in 534 Gelimer surrendered to the Roman conqueror, ending the Kingdom of the Vandals.
North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius.[31] The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia states that "Gelimer was honourably treated and received large estates in Galatia. He was also offered the rank of a patrician but had to refuse it because he was not willing to change his Arian faith".[27] In the words of historian Roger Collins: "The remaining Vandals were then shipped back to Constantinople to be absorbed into the imperial army. As a distinct ethnic unit they disappeared". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals
It is likely most women and children who mixed in with the Berbers. An interesting fact is while Eurasian mtDNA is dominant among the Kabyle J and U, the frequencies of European Y DNA is low.
Y-Dna haplogroups: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1b2)[9]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I,J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[10] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Neolithic origin.
MtDNA Haplogroups: H (3.65%), U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (42%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).
As is the case with most Berber populations the majorty of males are E carriers. Looking at the tale of the tape, the Vandal input which I presume is R1 and MtDNA J?..comprises only a fraction of Kabyle DNA. Hence the Vandals could not have been a majority. Additionally a dominant group would impose their language and culture on the lesser group, not the other way around.
Elementary, my dear Watson..uh Lioness. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
The name Berber appeared for the first time after the end of the Roman Empire. The use of the term Berber spread in the period following the arrival of the Vandals during their major invasions. The history of a Roman consul in Africa made reference for the first time to the term "barbarian" to describe Numidia. They, along with the Greeks referred to every people they could not understand with the same unintelligible Berber language whether they were in the East or the West. Muslim historians, some time after, also mentioned the Berbers. The English term is introduced in the 19th century, replacing earlier Barbary, as a loan from Arabic. Its ultimate etymological identity with barbarian is uncertain, but the Arabic word has clearly been treated as identical with Latin barbaria, Byzantine Greek βαρβαρία "land of barbarians" since the Middle Ages.
The Berbers have no unified history and have never experienced a unified political identity, which makes a review of the "history of the Berbers" somewhat problematic. There have been many strong Berber-led and Berber-populated kingdoms and cultures - often warring among themselves - existing in parallel in various regions of North Africa and Spain, but never a unified "Berber empire". Nor have these cultures used any written Berber language - there are almost no written records in Berber, except for short inscriptions on a few monuments and buildings.
______________________________________________
This is semantics. Some writers call whoever had been living in the region "Berbers"
"Berber" is comprised of various groups from coastal North Africa.
However people hadn't been permanently setteled in places like Kabylie. Some indigenous Africans may have been passing through this poor quality land as nomads. Some writers may call them "Berbers".
They are not Berbers until the Berber language and culture came about, later.
Who gets called "Berber" is somewhat arbitrary.
The people who call themselves Berber today are Berbers. It is defined by language and culture.
A better question would not get caught up in arguments about who should be called Berber and who should not.
A better question for the racially concerned is
>when did people with light skin and straight hair begin to settle in North Africa?
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan tomb of Ramses III 1186–1155 BC
Mummy, Takarkori. Libya radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago
_______________________________________________
these are Libyans. You can call them Berber if you want because like "black" there is not fixed definition of the word.
Are the the ancestors of the 6,000 year old mummy indigenous or not indigenous to Africa? It is not known.
The term "indigenous" can be used in different ways also.
In one sense it is "native American Indians" who are indigenous to America not the Europeans.
In another sense the American indians came over the bearing strait from Asia so they are not "indigenous"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: As is the case with most Berber populations the majorty of males are E carriers. Looking at the tale of the tape, the Vandal input which I presume is R1 and MtDNA J?..comprises only a fraction of Kabyle DNA. Hence the Vandals could not have been a majority. Additionally a dominant group would impose their language and culture on the lesser group, not the other way around.
Elementary, my dear Watson..uh Lioness.
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?
Posts: 314 | From: Home | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Although the origin of the name "Tuareg" does not originate within the Berber group the Tuareg language is a southern Berber language having several dialects among the different regions. Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language closely related to Egyptian and Semitic-Canaanite languages. The main Canaanite languages are Phoenician, Punic, Moabite, Edomite, Hebrew and Ammonite. Initially all these were written in Phoenician script.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?
Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.
North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.
We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.
"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers." http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Let the White Wash of the Berbers stop!!
Tissint Berbers
Tamegroute/Zarogoza Berbers
Dude those are Berbers in Southern Morocco. Most Berbers live in the coastal areas and are Eurasian looking. Scroll up.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"
Did I say some were real and others fake? Or am I saying some are the minority and others are the majority? Why do you want to read in that kind of ish in what I'm saying? Berber is just a culture not a race.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have never said this or that is a "Real Berber" I have always maintained a position by the Berbers themselves that they are a Diverse Group of Black and White peoples. Berber is a Language that originated in East Africa.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [qb] I have never said this or that is a "Real Berber" I have always maintained a position by the Berbers themselves that they are a Diverse Group of Black and White peoples. Berber is a Language that originated in East Africa.
Yes there are Black Berbers.
I thought she was talking to me?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
If Berber is not a race and you "Claim" to recognize Black Berbers then why do you dismiss Black Berbers off as the Result of Slavery yet fight tooth and nail to deny that White Berbers are the result of Millions of White European Slaves bought to North Africa??
Why do you copy n paste Eurocentric propaganda claiming Berbers drove "Black Africans" or Enslaved "Black Africans" this and that when many Berbers are black themselves.
Lets the lies stop!!
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"
Did I say some were real and others fake? Or am I saying some are the minority and others are the majority? Why do you want to read in that kind of ish in what I'm saying? Berber is just a culture not a race.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
Topic Closed
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic