Masinissa (c. 240 or 238 BC - c. 148 BC) was the first King of Numidia.
Masinissa was the son of the chieftain Gala of a Numidian tribal group, the Massylii. He was brought up in Carthage, an ally of his father. At the start of the Second Punic War, Masinissa fought for Carthage against Syphax, the King of the Masaesyli of western Numidia (present day Algeria), who had allied himself with the Romans. Masinissa, then 17 years old, led an army of Numidian troops and Carthaginian auxiliaries against Syphax's army and won a decisive victory.
After his victory over Syphax, Masinissa commanded his skilled Numidian cavalry against the Romans in Spain, where he was involved in the Carthaginian victories of Castulo and Ilorca in 211 BC. After Hasdrubal Barca departed for Italy, Masinissa was placed in command of all the Carthaginian cavalry in Spain, where he fought a successful guerrilla campaign against the Roman general Publius Cornelius Scipio (Scipio Africanus) throughout 208 and 207, while Mago Barca and Hasdrubal Gisgo levied and trained new forces. In 206, with fresh reinforcements, Mago and Hasdrubal Gisgo — supported by Masinissa's Numidian cavalry — met Scipio at the Battle of Ilipa, where Carthage's power over Hispania was forever broken in arguably Scipio Africanus's most brilliant victory.
When Gaia died in 206, his sons Masinissa and Oezalces quarreled about the inheritance, and Syphax — now an ally of Carthage — was able to conquer considerable parts of the eastern Numidia. Meanwhile, with the Carthaginians having been driven from Hispania, Masinissa concluded that Rome was winning the war against Carthage and therefore decided to defect to Rome. he promised to assist Scipio in the invasion of Carthaginian territory in Africa. This decision was aided by the move by Scipio Africanus to free Masinissa's nephew, Massiva, whom the Romans had captured when he had disobeyed his uncle and ridden into battle. Having lost the alliance with Masinissa, Hasdrubal started to look for another ally, which he found in Syphax, who married Sophonisba, Hasdrubal's daughter who until the defection had been betrothed to Masinissa. The Romans supported Masinissa's claim to the Numidian throne against Syphax, who was nevertheless successful in driving Masinissa from power until Scipio invaded Africa in 204. Masinissa joined the Roman forces and participated in the victorious Battle of the Great Plains (203), after which Syphax was captured.
At the Battle of Bagbrades (203), Scipio overcame Hasdrubal and Syphax and while the Roman general concentrated on Carthage, Gaius Laelius and Masinissa followed Syphax to Cirta, where he was captured and handed over to Scipio. After the defeat of Syphax, Masinissa married Syphax's wife Sophonisba, but Scipio, suspicious of her loyalty, demanded that she be taken to Rome and appear in the triumphal parade. To save her from such humiliation, Masinissa sent her poison, with which she killed herself. Masinissa was now accepted as a loyal ally of Rome, and was confirmed by Scipio as the king of the Massylii.
At the Battle of Zama Masinissa commanded the cavalry (6,000 Numidian and 3,000 Roman) on Scipio's right wing, Scipio delayed the engagement for long enough to allow for Masinissa to join him. With the battle hanging in the balance, Masinissa's cavalry, having driven the fleeing Carthaginian horsemen away, returned and immediately fell onto the rear of the Carthaginian lines. This decided the battle and at once Hannibal's army began to collapse. The Second Punic War was over and for his services Masinissa received the kingdom of Syphax, and became king of Numidia.
Masinissa was now king of both the Massylii and the Masaesyli. He showed unconditional loyalty to Rome, and his position in Africa was strengthened by a clause in the peace treaty of 201 between Rome and Carthage prohibiting the latter from going to war even in self-defense without Roman permission. This enabled Masinissa to encroach on the remaining Carthaginian territory as long as he judged that Rome wished to see Carthage further weakened.
With Roman backing, Masinissa established his own kingdom of Numidia, west of Carthage, with Cirta — present day Constantine — as its capital city. All of this happened in accordance with Roman interest, as they wanted to give Carthage more problems with its neighbours. Masinissa’s chief aim was to build a strong and unified state from the semi-nomadic Numidian tribes. To that end, he introduced Carthaginian agricultural techniques and forced many Numidians to settle as peasant farmers. Masinissa and his sons possessed large estates throughout Numidia, to the extent that Roman authors attributed to him, quite falsely, the sedentarization of the Numidians. Major towns included Capsa, Thugga (modern Dougga), Bulla Regia and Hippo Regius.
All through his reign, Masinissa extended his territory, and he was cooperating with Rome when, towards the end of his life, he provoked Carthage to go to war against him. Any hopes he may have had of extending his rule right across North Africa were dashed, however, when a Roman commission headed by the elderly Marcus Porcius Cato (Cato the Elder) came to Africa about 155 BC to decide a territorial dispute between Masinissa and Carthage. Animated probably by an irrational fear of a Carthaginian revival, but possibly by suspicion of Masinissa’s ambitions, Cato thenceforward advocated, finally with success, the destruction of Carthage. Based on descriptions from Livy, the Numidians began raiding around seventy towns in the southern and western sections of Carthage's remaining territory. Outraged with their conduct, Carthage went to war against them, in defiance of the Roman treaty forbidding them to make war on anyone, thus precipitating the Third Punic War (149–146 BC). Masinissa showed his displeasure when the Roman army arrived in Africa in 149 BC, but he died early in 148 BC without a breach in the alliance. Ancient accounts suggest Masinissa lived beyond the age of 90 and was apparently still personally leading the armies of his kingdom when he died.
After his death, Numidia was divided into several smaller kingdoms ruled by his sons. His descendants were the elder Juba I of Numidia (85 BC–46 BC) and younger Juba II (52 BC-23 AD).
His name was found in his tomb of Cirta, modernday Constantine in Algeria under the form of MSNSN (which have to be read as Mas'n'sen which means "Their Lord")
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Juba I of Numidia (c. 85 BC – 46 BC) was the son and successor to King of Numidia Hiempsal II.
In 81 BC Hiempsal had been driven from his throne; soon afterwards, Pompey was sent to Africa by Sulla to reinstate him as king in Numidia, and because of this Hiempsal and later Juba became Pompey’s ally. This alliance was strengthened during a visit by Juba to Rome, when Julius Caesar insulted him by pulling on his beard during accusations Juba made against Caesar, and still further in 50 BC, when the tribune Gaius Scribonius Curio openly proposed that Numidia should be sold privately, and when his wife became Caesar's lover In August 49 BC, Caesar sent Curio to take Africa from the Republicans.
Overconfident and holding the governor of Africa, Publius Attius Varus (Varus) in low esteem Curio took fewer legions than he had been given. In the Battle of the Bagradas River (49 BC), Curio led his army in a bold, uphill attack which swiftly routed Varus' army and in the process wounded Varus. Encouraged by this success, Curio acted on what proved to be faulty intelligence, and attacked what he believed to be a detachment of Juba's army. In fact, the bulk of the king's forces were there and, after an initial success, Curio's forces were ambushed and virtually annihilated by Saburra (Juba's military commander).
Curio was surrounded with the remnants of his troops on a hilltop and died in the fighting. Only a few were able to escape on their ships, and King Juba took several senators captive back to Numidia for display and execution.
With the arrival of Caesar in Africa, Juba originally planned to join Publius Cornelius Scipio Salvito, but his kingdom was invaded from the west by Caesar's ally Bocchus II and an Italian adventurer, Publius Sittius. He therefore left only 30 elephants behind and marched home to save his country.
Scipio knew he couldn't fight without more troops, and sent a desperate message to Juba for assistance. Juba immediately left the command of his kingdom's defence with Sabura, and joined Scipio with 3 legions, around 15,000 light infantry, 1,000 cavalry and 30 elephants for the Battle of Thapsus. However, he camped away from Scipio's main lines. Seeing the certain defeat of Scipio's army, Juba did not take part in the battle and fled with his 30,000 men. Having fled with the Roman general Petreius and finding their retreat cut off, they made a suicide pact and engaged in one on one combat. The idea was that one would meet an honourable death. Sources vary on the outcome, but it is most likely that Petreius killed Juba and then committed suicide with the assistance of a slave.
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Juba II was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia - his mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa). Numidia became a Roman Province. His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey.
Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship. Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology. He was raised by Julius Caesar and later by his great-nephew Octavian (future Emperor Caesar Augustus). While growing up, Juba II accompanied Octavian on military campaigns, gaining valuable experience as a leader. He fought alongside Octavian in the battle of Actium in 31 BC. They became longtime friends.
Augustus restored Juba II as the king of Numidia between 29 BC – 27 BC. Juba II established Numidia as an ally of Rome. Juba II would become one of the most loyal client kings that served Rome. Between 26 BC – 20 BC, Augustus arranged for him to marry Cleopatra Selene II (daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony), giving her a large dowry and appointing her queen. It was probably due to his services with Augustus in a campaign in Spain that led Augustus to make him King of Mauretania.
First marriage to Cleopatra Selene II (40 BC – 6 AD). Their children were: Ptolemy of Mauretania born in ca 10 BC – 40 CE A daughter of Cleopatra and Juba, whose name has not been recorded, is mentioned in an inscription. It has been suggested that Drusilla of Mauretania was that daughter, but she may have been a granddaughter instead. Drusilla is described as a granddaughter of Antony and Cleopatra, or may have been a daughter of Ptolemy of Mauretania.
Second marriage to Glaphyra, a princess of Cappadocia, and widow of Alexander, son of Herod the Great. Alexander was executed in 6 AD. Glaphyra married Juba II in 6 AD or 7 AD. She then fell in love with Herod Archelaus, another son of Herod the Great and Ethnarch of Judea. Glaphyra divorced Juba to marry him in 7 AD. Juba had no children with Glaphyra.
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This thread was prompted by the nonsense anguishofbeingstupid and lioness were posting in the "Vikings and Celts (Page 10)".
I can only assume that Albinos are still trying to inject themselves into African history by supporting the claim made by the Alan, Vandal, and Visigoth Albinos and Mulattoes of North Africa that they are BERBERS!
The Amazigh
This is of course what a Berber "REALLY" looks like!
Ha,ha,ha, poor sick and delusional Albinos. How preposterous that these unmelaninated and barely melaninated creatures would claim "MODERN" provenance in the home of the Black man. (Their ancient provenance is of course in Africa - as Albinos).
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The head of Juba 1 in the French Louvre museum is a fake.It look like the head of Roman God Jupiter.The head doesnt look like Juba I coin.On Juba I coin he have plaited or dread lock hair, he have a round nose and a big lips.The Louvre Juba head have a white man long nose, thin lips, curly hair and soft beard.
Juba II head in the Louvre look more authentic.This head look like the head of a black man or mulato.The head have a big lips, long and large nose, big cheekbone.Ancient coin should look dirty, old and used due to time, weather and heavy usage.They should not look brand new.
Nice big picture of bust say to be Emperor Caracalla.I only saw small size of that picture in the past.
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Of the Roman provinces in Africa Numidia was considered to be berber and these berbers were a client kingdom of the Romans. this is a list of the Numidian king names
I'm not sure of the etymology of the names but apart from Juba the names don't sound that African, I could be wrong. Look into it, could be more Punic or Punic/Romanic. Juba II was king of ancient Maureitania (spelled with an "e" pictured in the map Mike put up, occupying part of Morroco/ Algeria - not modern Mauritania) The people of Numidia and Maureitania were considered to be of the same or similar stock. The English word "Moor" is derived from this "Maure" or "Mauri" - Maure-tania. Mike says he belives the word Moor to mean "wasteland".
Much later and in three invasions the Muslims conquered the Maghreb. If you look at the map Mike put up we can see that the people who were much later to conquer Iberia in 711 were from this region that used to be Numidia/Mauretania. The Arabian Caliphate in power in that later period was the Umayyad 661-750 Later the Almoravids 1040-1147 expanded the Muslim empire further south to the Senegal river converting and confederating Sanhaja tries and invading Ghana and intermarrying with Ghanians
getting back to the earlier Numidian/Maureitania kings, there are several of these Numidian/Maureitania kings you can see examples of coins of. Go through the list, do your own research, Jugartha, Syphax etc.
There were two Jubas. They were the late kings of the region. Juba i of Numidian and Juba II his son of Mauretania The father had what appears to be a dred looking hairstyle. Below is a coin of him. It was made by the mint of Utica. Utica ( is an ancient city northwest of Carthage near the outflow of the Medjerda River into the Mediterranean Sea, traditionally considered to be the first colony founded by the Phoenicians in North Africa.
When a coin like this
becomes worn down
it looks like this:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Juba I of Numidia (c. 85 BC – 46 BC) was the son and successor to King of Numidia Hiempsal II.
and we discover one of Mike's typical tricks, find a version of an artifact that is more worn down where the wear itself causes the features to look more ambiguous, softer, flatter. The are still more Juba II coins you can find on the internet.I think they may go for a couple G.
Then if you have the same type of artifact in better condition Mike will say it's fake.
That's his game.
If you ask him for evidence it's fake he will say that it is not possible for a coin of this age to be in good condition. That is what he considers "evidence"
Now imagine all the similarly old Greek and Roman coins that are in decent condition. Now according to Mike's theory they are all fake.
Here are some more of the Juab I and Juba II coins Mike says are fake due to their condition being better:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The people of Numidia and Maureitania were considered to be of the same or similar stock. The English word "Moor" is derived from this "Maure" or "Mauri" - Maure-tania. Mike says he belives the word Moor to mean "wasteland". I'm leaning more towards it not only because great minds think alike but it's a less problematic interpretation than "black".
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The people of Numidia and Maureitania were considered to be of the same or similar stock. The English word "Moor" is derived from this "Maure" or "Mauri" - Maure-tania. Mike says he belives the word Moor to mean "wasteland". I'm leaning more towards it not only because great minds think alike but it's a less problematic interpretation than "black".
Lioness produce.
lol
If the word means black, this guy is black.
You could be right this guy could have had dark skin.
I don't know if Mike is right or not. I mentioned that because it's surprising Mike said that given what he's trying to suggest in this thread
(that's all you've got ?)
notice how people like myself, Mike, dana or brada in commenting on a thread like this do some reading on the topic. anguishedbeing is too lazy for that he is here for the sole purpose of arguing, doesn't do his own research a buzzing fly who learns nothing. Nobody values what he says. There's not even interetsing wrong research in it, just dumb quips and "lols"
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The people of Numidia and Maureitania were considered to be of the same or similar stock. The English word "Moor" is derived from this "Maure" or "Mauri" - Maure-tania. Mike says he belives the word Moor to mean "wasteland". I'm leaning more towards it not only because great minds think alike but it's a less problematic interpretation than "black".
Lioness produce.
lol
If the word means black, this guy is black.
You could be right this guy could have had dark skin.
I don't know if Mike is right or not. I mentioned that because it's surprising Mike said that given what he's trying to suggest in this thread
(that's all you've got ?)
notice how people like myself, Mike, dana or brada in commenting on a thread like this do some reading on the topic. anguishedbeing is too lazy for that he is here for the sole purpose of arguing, doesn't do his own research a buzzing fly who learns nothing. Nobody values what he says. There's not even interetsing wrong research in it, just dumb quips and "lols"
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: LOL! As if the Greco-Roman civilisation was "homegrown".
Apart from your Roman coins what evidence do you have that, unlike Rome, you can't "establish" a predominate ethnicity in AE and Carthage?
quote:Since several hundred years before Christ the Maghreb has been mixed.
Same can said of southern Europe simpleton unless youre going to argue that migrations back then went in only one direction.
quote:and are known for integrating various ethnicities,
And Greeks and Romans didn't have sex with others eh? lol
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: And Greeks and Romans didn't have sex with others eh? lol [/qb]
They didn't have enough of it to characterize these civilizations as mulatto.
"Well what about the North African civilization how much sex did they have wasn't the same amount due to the parallel universe theory? Isn't their some kind of fairness princible that shapes the demographics to all go down the same way? "
I can't answer that. You are asking about the "North African civilization" Which North African civilization are you referring to ??
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quote:They didn't have enough of it to characterize these civilizations as mulatto.
Wah??! LOL! Oh really prof. lioness, you are privy to these intimate demographic details? I would love to know too, what does your "research" say about the numbers of "mixed" offspring (in %) in the Greco-Roman world as compared to Carthage and AE. Sources please.
Not enough sex. LoL!
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Look at the perhistoric population of Europe.
The earliest people of Europe came around 30-40,000 years ago from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Europe.
Later around 15-20,000 years ago the ice age caused temperatures to drop and much if not all of Europe became depopulated.
Noth Africa also had major climate changes but in this case becoming a lot drier.
During this period, the environment of the Maghreb was open savanna, much like modern East Africa, with Mediterranean forests at higher altitudes.
The Capsian culture (named after the town of Gafsa in Tunisia) was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily. It is traditionally divided into two horizons, the Capsien typique (Typical Capsian) and the Capsien supérieur (Upper Capsian) which are sometimes found in chronostratigraphic sequence. They represent variants of one tradition, the differences between them being both typological and technological
The Capsian diet included a wide variety of animals, ranging from aurochs and hartebeest to hares and snails; there is little evidence concerning plants eaten.During the succeeding Neolithic of Capsian Tradition, there is evidence from one site, for domesticated, probably imported goats . Nothing is known about Capsian religion, but their burial methods suggest a belief in an afterlife.
Anatomically, Capsian populations were modern Homo sapiens, traditionally classed into two types: Proto-Mediterranean and Mechta-Afalou on the basis of cranial morphology. Some have argued that they were immigrants from the east, whereas others argue for population continuity based on physical skeletal characteristics and other criteria,et cetera
Even eralier The Eburran industry which dates between 13,000 and 9,000 BCE in East Africa, was formerly known as the "Kenya Capsian" due to similarities in the stone blade shapes. And prehistoric people in the region go back much further than that also
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those cultures are part of the green period of the Sahara.
Phoenicians and Greeks come into the region around 800-900 BC.
Similar to Europe you can't assume the earliest populations and conclude that later populations were comprised of their descendants. As far as the green period Capsians it is uncertain from where they came from or who they were but Capsian culture ended 6,000 BCE.
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quote:They didn't have enough of it to characterize these civilizations as mulatto.
Wah??! LOL! Oh really prof. lioness, you are privy to these intimate demographic details? I would love to know too, what does your "research" say about the numbers of "mixed" offspring (in %) in the Greco-Roman world as compared to Carthage and AE. Sources please.
Not enough sex. LoL!
why would you compare to Carthage? Carthage was founded by the Phoenicans from Lebanon (this is probably new to you) - that's why it's not that worthwhile to interact with the ignorant At first Phoenicians set up trading stations but then this evolved into cities including Carthagean city to rival Rome, at it's height a popualtion of half a millon people.
there were no indigenous Maghrebian large scale settlements or "civilizations" at this Sahara dry period time People who may have been indigenous would be small tribes of nomads. The nomads of that period had been even more limited until the intoduction of the camel.
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quote:why would you compare to Carthage? Carthage was founded by the Phoenicans from Lebanon
"Phoenician traders = no blacks" - Lioness
this is how anguishedbeing operates he has to make fake exagerated quotes. His tactic is to simpltonize arguments
The Carthegianians were primarily Phoenicians from Lebabnon. It turned into a major migration. They were probably mixing to some extent with local indigenous Africans but what tribes they were from is sketchy and uncertain. There is no record of there being a large population of them, or anthropolgical evidence for them that is what we are dealing with.
After the fall of Carthage people of Carthaginian decent became blended into later populations that came into Africa, Vandals , Arabs, Sub Saharan Africans, Turks
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quote:The Carthegianians were primarily Phoenicians from Lebabnon.
LOL So fuking what retard? This statement is irrelevant to a request of the % of "mixed" (black/whites) in Carthage vs Rome unless you are arguing "Phoenicia" is synonymous with nonblacks and these nonblacks mixed with Carthaginians, hence it is a mixed civilisation. Admit it cowardly distorter of North African history, thats where you want to go. I'm just helping you grow a backbone.
quote:After the fall of Carthage people of Carthaginian decent became blended into later populations that came into Africa, Vandals , Arabs, Sub Saharan Africans, Turks
^ that spam doesn't even begin to back up your shyt making. You have yet to leave the starting blocks....
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:They didn't have enough of it to characterize these civilizations as mulatto.
Wah??! LOL! Oh really prof. lioness, you are privy to these intimate demographic details? I would love to know too, what does your "research" say about the numbers of "mixed" offspring (in %) in the Greco-Roman world as compared to Carthage and AE. Sources please.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: [QB] This thread was prompted by the nonsense anguishofbeingstupid and lioness were posting in the "Vikings and Celts (Page 10)".
I can only assume that Albinos are still trying to inject themselves into African history by supporting the claim made by the Alan, Vandal, and Visigoth Albinos and Mulattoes of North Africa that they are BERBERS!
The term "berber" is not something the people called themselves.
But these people you mention who had some Vandal/Phoenician/Roman/Indigenous African/Greek ancestry
These "Mulatoes" of various proportions have been living in North Africa for hundreds of years.
Since 800-900 BC people from outside of Africa have become a part of African history.
These berber language speakers are what Europeans call "berbers". The peopledon't call themslves that.
So since this term is defined by Europeans this idea of "not real Berber" doesn't make sense.
It is better to argue that they have significant ancestry that is not indigenous to Africa rather than they are not berbers.
The are berbers and they have been a part of African history since before Christ.
Similalrly Arabs made a three stage invasion of North Africa and converted people to Islam. The people that did this had some African ancestry but they also had ancestry form outside of Africa. They are part of African history.
Similalry you might not like white South Africans but they are a part of African history.
The term "berber" is loosely defined. Sometimes Arabs would use it to describe Africans not even of North Africa who didn't speak Arabic. But today and for hundreds of years people intepret it to mean certian North Africans, people particular to North Africa, a hogepodge of various ethnic groups including people of ancestry outside of Africa, people who speak berber and are a part of so called "berber" culture.
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quote:The Carthegianians were primarily Phoenicians from Lebabnon.
LOL So fuking what retard? This statement is irrelevant to a request of the % of "mixed" (black/whites) in Carthage vs Rome unless you are arguing "Phoenicia" is synonymous with nonblacks and these nonblacks mixed with Carthaginians, hence it is a mixed civilisation. Admit it cowardly distorter of North African history, thats where you want to go. I'm just helping you grow a backbone.
notice how anguished turd continues his simplton tactics, leaving out my quote and pretends I'm saying something I'm not saying.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Carthegianians were primarily Phoenicians from Lebabnon. It turned into a major migration. They were probably mixing to some extent with local indigenous Africans
This means Carthegians were from what is now called Lebanon and they mixed with indigenous Africans and that means black people. Meaning a people with no ancestry from outside of Africa. It's an assumption I make though one can't find evidence in that Carthage location for some named large settlement of them.
Like the Khoisans these indigeous black Africans were probably not quite as dark as equatorial Afrians who are exposed to higher UV.
and now anguished turd, instead of following me around and being reactive, will give you the "undistorted" view
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^^^ this is all the same bronze statue of Juba II, differesnt angles
Juba II was the last king of Numidia (52/50 BC – AD 23) He later moved to Mauretania as king. His first wife was Cleopatra Selene II, daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony.
Juba II was a prince from North Africa. He was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia and his mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa). Numidia became a Roman Province. His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey.
Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship. Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology. He was raised by Julius Caesar and later by his great-nephew Octavian (future Emperor Caesar Augustus). While growing up, Juba II accompanied Octavian on military campaigns, gaining valuable experience as a leader. Augustus restored Juba II as the king of Numidia between 29 BC – 27 BC. Juba II established Numidia as an ally of Rome. Juba II would become one of the most loyal client kings that served Rome. When they moved to Mauretania, they renamed their new capital to Caesaria (modern Cherchell, Algeria). The city was named in honor of Augustus. The construction and sculpture projects at Caesaria and another city Volubilis, display a rich mixture of Egyptian, Greek and Roman architectural styles.
Cleopatra is said to have exerted considerable influence on Juba II's policies. Juba II encouraged and supported the performing arts, research of the sciences and research of natural history. Juba II also supported Mauretanian trade. The Kingdom of Mauretania was of great importance to the Roman Empire. Mauretania traded all over the Mediterranean, particularly with Spain and Italy. Mauretania exported fish, grapes, pearls, figs, grain, wooden furniture and purple dye harvested from certain shellfish, which was used in the manufacture of purple stripes for senatorial robes. Juba II sent a contingent to Iles Purpuraires to re-establish the ancient Phoenician dye manufacturing process
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quote: Origninally posted by Mike111
here we have a king of ancient Mauretania Juba II
The English word "Moor" derives from "Maure" or "Mauri". related to this region - Maure-tania Some think it relates to the "black" skin color of it's people others think it's related to this region but relates to some other aspect of it. Mike thinks it might mean "wasteland".
Mike's reasoning is that according to him everybody in the region at that time was black therefore one of these nations calling themsleves a word meaning black wouldn't make sense if everyone was black. It would be a given. A similar argument could be made that Kmt, the original word for Egypt does not refer to skin color, it must refer to something else. You be the judge.
Moor (n.) "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
Over 700 years later Muslims were to invade Iberia from much of this this same ancient Mauretania/Numidia region.
There are coins depicting Juba II.
The statue above is shown photographed from three differnt angles. It is believed by ES member Just-call-him-Jari to depict an indigenous black African with indigenous black African wavy hair.
I'll let you be the judge
Juba II died in 23 AD
Were the Mauretanians of 23 AD the same people as the Mauretanians over 400 years earlier?
It's hard to to tell
Herodotus: The Histories, c. 430 B.C., Book IV.
Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE
These be the Libyan tribes whereof I am able to give the names; and most of these cared little then, and indeed care little now, for the king of the Medes. One thing more also I can add concerning this region, namely, that, so far as our knowledge reaches, four nations, and no more, inhabit it; and two of these nations are indigenous, while two are not. The two indigenous are the Libyans and Ethiopians, who dwell respectively in the north and the south of Libya.The Phoenicians and the Greek are in-comers
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Strabo: Geography, c. 22 A.D., XVII.iii.1-11.
Here dwell a people called by the Greeks Maurusii, and by the Romans and the natives Mauretanii, a populous and flourishing African nation, situated opposite to Spain, on the other side of the strait, at the Pillars of Hercules, which we have frequently mentioned before......
The mountain which extends through the middle of Mauretania, from the Coteis to the Syrtes, is itself inhabited, as well as others running parallel to it, first by the Mauretanii, but deep in the interior of the country by the largest of the African tribes, called Gaetuli.....
Writers in general are agreed that Mauretania is a fertile country, except a small part which is desert, and is supplied with water by rivers and lakes. It has forests of trees of vast size, and the soil produces everything.....
The country is the fruitful nurse of large serpents, elephants, antelopes, buffaloes, and similar animals; of lions also and panthers. It produces weasels (jerboas?) equal in size and similar to cats, except that their noses are more prominent, and multitudes of apes, of which Poseidonius relates that when he was sailing from Gades to Italy, and approached the coast of Africa, he saw a forest low upon the sea-shore full of these animals, some on the trees, others on the ground, and some giving suck to their young. He was amused also with seeing some with large dugs, some bald, others with ruptures and exhibiting to view various effects of disease.....
Above Mauretania, on the exterior sea (the Atlantic), is the country of the western Ethiopians, as they are called, which for the most part is badly inhabited.....
Although the Mauretanii inhabit a country, the greatest part of which is very fertile, yet the people in general continue even to this time to live like nomads. They bestow care to improve their looks by plaiting their hair, trimming their beards, by wearing golden ornaments, cleaning their teeth, and paring their nails; and you would rarely see them touch one another as they walk, lest they should disturb the arrangement of their hair.
Some say that the Mauretanii are Indians, who accompanied Hercules hither. A little before my time, the kings Bogus and Bocchus, allies of the Romans, possessed this country; after their death, Juba succeeded to the kingdom, having received it from Augustus Caesar, in addition to his paternal dominions. He was the son of Juba who fought, in conjunction with Scipio, against divine Caesar. Juba died lately, and was succeeded by his son Ptolemy, whose mother was the daughter of Antony and Cleopatra.
And there are fortresses also on the mountain [called "Clypea" by the Romans], which are neglected, by reason of the fact that they do not seem necessary to the inhabitants. For since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.
And there are fortresses also on the mountain [called "Clypea" by the Romans], which are neglected, by reason of the fact that they do not seem necessary to the inhabitants. For since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.
Lying one, I could not find those quotes anywhere. Here are some well know translations of the book, please point out where your quotes can be found.
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Procopius' History of the Wars ...
posted
Please bitch, nobody has to simplify your not-enough-sex-with-outsiders-compared-to-Africans BS. You made the stupid post simpleton to support your inconsistent mulatto civilisation theories. Like the holocau$t BS you have yet to leave the blocks.
quote:This means Carthegians were from what is now called Lebanon and they mixed with indigenous Africans and that means black people.
And there are fortresses also on the mountain [called "Clypea" by the Romans], which are neglected, by reason of the fact that they do not seem necessary to the inhabitants. For since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.
I found it, and as usual, total nonsense. We cannot find the modern places that those place names refer to, so there is no telling if there is even a little truth to this nonsense.
The wording seems to change from translation to translation - typical for Albino translations. Example:
BTW - As a statement of fact: In North Africa, once you leave Ceuta Morocco, you can no longer go West, you can only go South. Therefore this nonsense is talking about places in Libya.
As we can see from the map, North Africa West of Libya was crawling with "Pink" Vandals.
Procopius For the Vandals whom Belisarius took to Byzantium were placed by the emperor in five cavalry squadrons, in order that they might be settled permanently in the cities of the East; he also called them the "Vandals of Justinian," and ordered them to betake themselves in ships to the East. Now the majority of these Vandal soldiers reached the East, and, filling up the squadrons to which they had been assigned, they have been fighting against the Persians up to the present time; but the remainder, about four hundred in number, after reaching Lesbos, waiting until the sails were bellied with the wind, forced the sailors to submission and sailed on till they reached the Peloponnesus. And setting sail from there, they came to land in Libya at a desert place, where they abandoned the ships, and, after equipping themselves, went up to Mt. Aurasium and Mauretania. Elated by their accession, the soldiers who were planning the mutiny formed a still closer conspiracy among themselves. And there was much talk about this in the camp and oaths were already being taken.
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Ceuta is a 7.1 sq mi autonomous city of Spain and an exclave located on the north coast of Africa, sharing a western border with Morocco. Distance between Ceuta and Tarfaya in Southern Morocco 708 miles
beginning with the Carthaginians in the 5th century BC, who called the city Abyla. It was not until the Romans took control of the region in AD 42 that the port city, then named Septa, assumed an almost exclusive military purpose. It changed hands again approximately 400 years later, when Vandal tribes ousted the Romans. It then fell into the hands of the Visigoths, and finally became an outpost of the Byzantine Empire.
Around 710, as Muslim armies approached the city It's Byzantine governor, Julian (described as King of the Ghomara) changed his allegiance, and exhorted the Muslims to invade the Iberian Peninsula. Under the leadership of Berber General Tariq ibn Ziyad, the Muslims used Ceuta as a staging ground for an assault on Visigothic Iberian Peninsula. After Julian's death, the Berbers took direct control of the city, something that the indigenous Berber tribes resented. They destroyed Ceuta during the Kharijite rebellion led by Maysara al-Matghari in 740.
Ceuta lay in ruins until it was resettled in the 9th century by Mâjakas, chief of the Majkasa Berber tribe, who started the short-lived Banu Isam dynasty. His great-grandson would briefly ally his tribe with the Idrisids, but the Banu Isam rule ended in 931 when he abdicated in favor of the Umayyad Caliph of Cordoba, Abd ar-Rahman III. Ceuta reverted to Moorish Andalusian rule in 927, along with Melilla, and later Tangier, in 951.
Chaos ensued with the fall of the Umayyad caliphate in 1031, but eventually Ceuta and the rest of Muslim Spain fell into the hands of successive North African dynasties.
Roman Map - Orbis Terrarum, 20 A.D. This is a reconstruction of a map of the Roman Empire, known as the Orbis Terrarum. Romans tended to care less about geographic accuracy and more about its political and military practicality when making maps, as can be seen here
map drawn by Herodotus, Africa is the bottom left triangularish portion depicted as part of Asia though the thin Red Sea is still showing
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The exact borders of some of these regions are had to determine and they change at different periods. Both of these maps are probably part speculation. Notice the variation in the Mauretania and Numidian parts also the area then called "Africa", yellow on the bottom map, On the top map in light purple marked "6" below it still looking at the top map is Numidia marked "11"
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Mike you are often talking about later periods in Europe like the Renaissance, medieval etc.
Looking at this earlier period and assuming that there were large numbers of blacks in Europe at the time what was going on in this earlier Germanic tribe period? Was it racial harmony In Europe? Ebony and Ivory type stuff?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mike you are often talking about later periods in Europe like the Renaissance, medieval etc.
Looking at this earlier period and assuming that there were large numbers of blacks in Europe at the time what was going on in this earlier Germanic tribe period? Was it racial harmony In Europe? Ebony and Ivory type stuff?
Don't you read or understand the material that you post?
In ancient times alliances were based on self interest not race. Don't forget, Central Asian Albinos gained access to Roman territory by converting to Christianity while fleeing the Huns.
Race became the overriding issue later, perhaps the Black rulers and nobility were exploiting the Albinos too much.
BOOK III THE VANDALIC WAR
But the Moors who dwelt in Byzacium and in Numidia turned to revolt for no good reason, and they decided to break the treaty and to rise suddenly against the Romans. And this was not out of keeping with their peculiar character. For there is among the Moors neither fear of God nor respect for men. [10-17] For they care not either for oaths or for hostages, even though the hostages chance to be the children or brothers of their leaders. Nor is peace maintained among the Moors by any other means than by fear of the enemies opposing them. Now I shall set forth in what manner the treaty was made by them with Belisarius and how it was broken. When it came to be expected that the emperor's expedition would arrive in Libya, the Moors, fearing lest they should receive some harm from it, consulted the oracles of their women. For it is not lawful in this nation for a man to utter oracles, but the women among them as a result of some sacred rites become possessed and foretell the future, no less than any of the ancient oracles. So on that occasion, when they made enquiry, as has been said, the women gave the response: "There shall be a host from the waters, the overthrow of the Vandals, destruction and defeat of the Moors, when the general of the Romans shall come unbearded." When the Moors heard this, since they saw that the emperor's army had come from the sea, they began to be in great fear and were quite unwilling to fight in alliance with the Vandals, but they sent to Belisarius and established peace, as has been stated previously,[24] and then remained quiet and waited for the future, to see how it would fall out. And when the power of the Vandals had now come to an end, they sent to the Roman army, investigating whether there was anyone unbearded among them holding an office. And when they saw all wearing full beards, they thought that the oracle did not indicate the present time to them, but one many generations later, interpreting the saying in [17-25] that way which they themselves wished. Immediately, therefore, they were eager to break the treaty, but their fear of Belisarius prevented them. For they had no hope that they would ever overcome the Romans in war, at least with him present. But when they heard that he was making his departure together with his guards and spearmen, and that the ships were already being filled with them and the Vandals, they suddenly rose in arms and displayed every manner of outrage upon the Libyans.
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posted
Mike I asked you about black and white relations during 4th and 5th century.
You are now referring to Moors and Vandals. The Moors were part of the Islamic conquest that begins with invasion of Egypt and the Maghreb and they enter Europe in 711 primarily only to the extent of Spain and part of Italy. Their interactions with Europe were often in the context of bloody Arab/Berber Muslim vs. Christian battles, later Turkish Muslims
I'm talking about hundreds of years earlier in the Germanic period wiith it's Goths, Franks, Saxons, Vandals and so on. Is this a period of racial harmony yes or no ?
You are saying it wasn't about race then. Are you now saying the "Barbarian" Germanic tribes, the picture of Europe at the time were racially integrated with significant numbers of blacks within them?
Hundreds of years earlier, no Moors in Europe Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mike I asked you about black and white relations during 4th and 5th century.
You are now referring to Moors and Vandals. The Moors were part of the Islamic conquest that begins with invasion of Egypt and the Maghreb and they enter Europe in 711 primarily only to the extent of Spain and part of Italy. Their interactions with Europe were often in the context of bloody Arab/Berber Muslim vs. Christian battles, later Turkish Muslims
I'm talking about hundreds of years earlier in the Germanic period with it's Goths, Franks, Saxons, Vandals and so on. Is this a period of racial harmony yes or no ?
You are saying it wasn't about race then. Are you now saying the "Barbarian" Germanic tribes, the picture of Europe at the time were racially integrated with significant numbers of blacks within them?
Lioness, you ask a wonderful question which certainly deserves thought and research.
But alas, you are an idiot, discussing the subject with you in a serious manner would be to open the door to unimagined stupidities and ignorance's, and would ultimately be a waste of time.
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posted
Mike is not an Afrocentric and doesn't claim to be. I can think of no one, not AlTakruri, not Djehutie, not Swenet, not any current posters say they are Afrocentric, and they have made statements to that effect. The only Afrocentric around is Dr. Clyde.
Mike is a Black Eurocentric, that is the proper term.
The Black Eurocentrics say that mankind started in Europe with Black folk. whites came in and forced them into Africa. Then Dr. Leaky and friends promoted the myth that mankind started in Africa so that Blacks would not ask for Europe back
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posted
LOL The Lyinass keeps pushing forth the crap that just because there are statues portraying men with thin or pointed noses, then this must mean they were not black or at least 'mixed'. Despite the how many years she's been on this forum she still has not learned any of the basics of physical anthropology.
Just do a google image search on Numidians and even the people of European descent had a clue as to how they looked based on ancient records:
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posted
^^^ so as an argument in his rudimenatry google search he uses modern illustrations from a war model site as opposed to ancient artifacts such as coins (minted in Uttica Tunisa), and ancient sculpture of Numidian kings
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^^^ this is all the same bronze statue of Juba II, differesnt angles
Yes and absolutely no information on 'color' can be gleaned from this statue let alone whether the person portrayed was or wasn't black.
quote:Juba II was the last king of Numidia (52/50 BC – AD 23) He later moved to Mauretania as king. His first wife was Cleopatra Selene II, daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony.
Juba II was a prince from North Africa. He was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia and his mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa). Numidia became a Roman Province. His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey.
Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship. Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology. He was raised by Julius Caesar and later by his great-nephew Octavian (future Emperor Caesar Augustus). While growing up, Juba II accompanied Octavian on military campaigns, gaining valuable experience as a leader. Augustus restored Juba II as the king of Numidia between 29 BC – 27 BC. Juba II established Numidia as an ally of Rome. Juba II would become one of the most loyal client kings that served Rome. When they moved to Mauretania, they renamed their new capital to Caesaria (modern Cherchell, Algeria). The city was named in honor of Augustus. The construction and sculpture projects at Caesaria and another city Volubilis, display a rich mixture of Egyptian, Greek and Roman architectural styles.
Cleopatra is said to have exerted considerable influence on Juba II's policies. Juba II encouraged and supported the performing arts, research of the sciences and research of natural history. Juba II also supported Mauretanian trade. The Kingdom of Mauretania was of great importance to the Roman Empire. Mauretania traded all over the Mediterranean, particularly with Spain and Italy. Mauretania exported fish, grapes, pearls, figs, grain, wooden furniture and purple dye harvested from certain shellfish, which was used in the manufacture of purple stripes for senatorial robes. Juba II sent a contingent to Iles Purpuraires to re-establish the ancient Phoenician dye manufacturing process
And your point exactly??
quote:here we have a king of ancient Mauretania Juba II
The English word "Moor" derives from "Maure" or "Mauri". related to this region - Maure-tania Some think it relates to the "black" skin color of it's people others think it's related to this region but relates to some other aspect of it. Mike thinks it might mean "wasteland".
Mike's reasoning is that according to him everybody in the region at that time was black therefore one of these nations calling themsleves a word meaning black wouldn't make sense if everyone was black. It would be a given. A similar argument could be made that Kmt, the original word for Egypt does not refer to skin color, it must refer to something else. You be the judge.
here is how an etymology describes it:
Moor (n.) "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
Correct. Whether the word 'Moor' or some variant was a native term in Africa or not, the point is that Euros used to to mean BLACK. and Numidians WERE indeed 'Moors' or blacks to the sun-tanned Italians.
quote:Over 700 years later Muslims were to invade Iberia from much of this this same ancient Mauretania/Numidia region.
There are coins depicting Juba II.
The statue above is shown photographed from three differnt angles. It is believed by ES member Just-call-him-Jari to depict an indigenous black African with indigenous black African wavy hair.
I'll let you be the judge.
Jari is not the only knowledgeable person. Everyone in this forum except you knows by now that there are indeed Africans with wavy hair and narrow noses who have no mixed or foreign ancestry what so ever.
quote:Juba II died in 23 AD
Were the Mauretanians of 23 AD the same people as the Mauretanians over 400 years earlier?
It's hard to to tell
Herodotus: The Histories, c. 430 B.C., Book IV.
Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE
These be the Libyan tribes whereof I am able to give the names; and most of these cared little then, and indeed care little now, for the king of the Medes. One thing more also I can add concerning this region, namely, that, so far as our knowledge reaches, four nations, and no more, inhabit it; and two of these nations are indigenous, while two are not. The two indigenous are the Libyans and Ethiopians, who dwell respectively in the north and the south of Libya. The Phoenicians and the Greek are in-comers
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Strabo: Geography, c. 22 A.D., XVII.iii.1-11.
Here dwell a people called by the Greeks Maurusii, and by the Romans and the natives Mauretanii, a populous and flourishing African nation, situated opposite to Spain, on the other side of the strait, at the Pillars of Hercules, which we have frequently mentioned before......
The mountain which extends through the middle of Mauretania, from the Coteis to the Syrtes, is itself inhabited, as well as others running parallel to it, first by the Mauretanii, but deep in the interior of the country by the largest of the African tribes, called Gaetuli.....
Writers in general are agreed that Mauretania is a fertile country, except a small part which is desert, and is supplied with water by rivers and lakes. It has forests of trees of vast size, and the soil produces everything.....
The country is the fruitful nurse of large serpents, elephants, antelopes, buffaloes, and similar animals; of lions also and panthers. It produces weasels (jerboas?) equal in size and similar to cats, except that their noses are more prominent, and multitudes of apes, of which Poseidonius relates that when he was sailing from Gades to Italy, and approached the coast of Africa, he saw a forest low upon the sea-shore full of these animals, some on the trees, others on the ground, and some giving suck to their young. He was amused also with seeing some with large dugs, some bald, others with ruptures and exhibiting to view various effects of disease.....
Above Mauretania, on the exterior sea (the Atlantic), is the country of the western Ethiopians, as they are called, which for the most part is badly inhabited.....
Although the Mauretanii inhabit a country, the greatest part of which is very fertile, yet the people in general continue even to this time to live like nomads. They bestow care to improve their looks by plaiting their hair, trimming their beards, by wearing golden ornaments, cleaning their teeth, and paring their nails; and you would rarely see them touch one another as they walk, lest they should disturb the arrangement of their hair.
Some say that the Mauretanii are Indians, who accompanied Hercules hither. A little before my time, the kings Bogus and Bocchus, allies of the Romans, possessed this country; after their death, Juba succeeded to the kingdom, having received it from Augustus Caesar, in addition to his paternal dominions. He was the son of Juba who fought, in conjunction with Scipio, against divine Caesar. Juba died lately, and was succeeded by his son Ptolemy, whose mother was the daughter of Antony and Cleopatra.
The reason for the comparison with Indians was because of their wavy hair.
quote: Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. 550 CE
And there are fortresses also on the mountain [called "Clypea" by the Romans], which are neglected, by reason of the fact that they do not seem necessary to the inhabitants. For since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired. [/i][/QB]
Okay, but the Mauretanii like their Numidian kin are black.
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: ^^^ so as an argument in his rudimenatry google search he uses modern illustrations from a war model site as opposed to ancient artifacts such as coins (minted in Uttica Tunisa), and ancient sculpture of Numidian kings
LMAO Apparently my point went past your simple mind.
All the ancient artifacts you present-- sculptures and coins-- do NOT give any indication or clue about skin color. Although the ancient texts and writings by the Romans and Greeks do. The modern illustrations I present are BASED on both-- ancient artifacts as well as descriptions on skin color.
According to Livy: "They [the Numidians] are a black race, wear shorts and a sleeveless tunic, riding a strong fast north pony, without halter, only a short bridle, or by screaming roar."
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^^^ this is all the same bronze statue of Juba II, differesnt angles
Moor (n.) "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
Yes and absolutely no information on 'color' can be gleaned from this statue let alone whether the person portrayed was or wasn't black.
Everyone in this forum except you knows by now that there are indeed Africans with wavy hair and narrow noses who have no mixed or foreign ancestry what so ever.
I'm not sure that dana would agree that the bronze statue at the top of this post, the same statue from three different angles is depicting an African who does not have significant ancestry from outside of Africa. You assume that she and others think that and you are probably wrong in her case. Jari so far and you
I have a link addressed to xyyman in this thread a list of Numidan kings names. look up some of the coins for them such as Juba 1 minted in Tunisia as well as Juba II and earlier Numidian/Mauretanian kings in google images search.
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DUARTE BARBOSA, early 15c Portuguese author
The Moors of Sofala kept these wares and sold them afterwards to the heathen of the Kingdom of Benametapa, who came thither laden with gold which they gave in exchange for the said cloths without weighing it. These Moors collect also great store of ivory which they find hard by Sofala, and this also they sell in the [Indian] Kingdom of Cambay at five or six cruzados the quintal. They also sell some ambergris, which is brought to them from the Hucicas, and is exceeding good. These Moors are black, and some of them tawny; some of them speak Arabic, but the more I part use the language of the country. They clothe themselves from the waist down with cotton and silk cloths, and other cloths they wear over their shoulders like capes, and turbans on their heads. Some of them wear small caps dyed in grain in chequers and other woolen clothes in many tints, also camlets and other silks.
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Here we have an author saying " These Moors are black, and some of them tawny"
he didn't say "tawny moors" he said "Moors" and within "Moors" some are black others tawny
so if another writer is looking at black moors and describes them as 'black as coal' or as 'dark as night' stereotypes that doesn't apply to all moors. We look to the etymology "Being a dark people in relation to Europeans" as today a person like my husband Barack Obama described as "black"
as opposed to the insistance that Moor = "True Negro"
and not accounting for the fact that people as far away form the equator as the San should not be expected to be as dark as Sudanese.
_______________________________
Now look back to the Duarte Barbosa quote above from the 15thc. He is describing some moors as tawny. But he is talking about Sofala in Mozambique.
I thought Moors were the people that invaded Iberia. So what are moors some of whom look tawny doing in of Mozambique?One of the oldest harbors documented in Southern Africa, medieval Sofala was erected on the edge of a wide estuary formed by the Buzi River (called Rio de Sofala in older maps). Sofala was founded about the year 700. The Arabs had frequented the coast since 915, followed by traders from Persia.
back the etymology, used "indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) "
The Europeans came up with the word and it's meaning was loose. Common factor here? The Arabs were in both coastal locations, the Maghreb and the East coast including far off in it's southern portion
I prefer it to only apply to Maghrebians, particular ones.
Well what about the Sanhaja who were confederated by the Almoravid based in Morocco.
Didn't that extend down to the Sengal river? Didn't they invade Ghana, convert people to Islam? yes all that was mixed in.
But before them the Muslims had already conquered Morocco and Spain under the command of the Mecca based Umayyads (haplogroup J probably) appointing Tariq Bin Ali a berber to lead the army.
^^^^ all this before the Sanhaja were integrated into the Muslim empire for use as soldiers , before the Almoravids invaded Ghana.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
"Greek and Roman portrait statues and coins found in Sabaean, Arab and North African culture represent Romans not - not Africans or African Asiatics" - Dana
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [QB] "Greek and Roman portrait statues and coins found in Sabaean, Arab and North African culture represent Romans not - not Africans or African Asiatics" - Dana
wouldn't know how to interpret this
Either the whole list of Numidian kings, including Massinissa, Syphax, Jugurtha, Juba and many more were more Roman than African ( and many of their names do not sound that African)
OR
they were African but the Romans even though they knew how to depict Africans fabricated in the indicidual likeness of each of them, coins and statues based completely on imagination.
It's a conspiracy theory that doesn't sound likely. The Numidians were already clients of the Romans assiting their miltary campaigns. Look at the bio of Juba II for instance
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [QB] "Greek and Roman portrait statues and coins found in Sabaean, Arab and North African culture represent Romans not - not Africans or African Asiatics" - Dana
wouldn't know how to interpret this
No wonder you waited so long to reply to it. lol Well just ignore it and spam away like trolls do. You and Mike are two sides of the same dumbass coin remember?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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In the first century A.D., the human image of one Buddha came to dominate the artistic scene, and one of the first sites at which this occurred was along India's northwestern frontier. In the area known as Gandhara in Pakistan, artistic elements from the Hellenistic world combined with the symbolism needed to express Indian Buddhism to create a unique style. The decline of the Empire left the sub-continent open to the inroads by the Greco-Bactrians. Southern Afghanistan was absorbed by Demetrius I of Bactria in 180 BC. Around about 185 BC, Demetrius invaded and conquered Gandhara and the Punjab. Later, wars between different groups of Bactrian Greeks resulted in the independence of Gandhara from Bactria and the formation of the Indo-Greek kingdom.
the top Buddha from Pakistan is one of the earliest made in 1-2nd century AD influenced by the Greek style
The lower Buddha was made in Thaliand influenced by Thai culture, 7th century AD
When there's lacking background information and it's revealed you can see the manipulation intended
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [QB] "Greek and Roman portrait statues and coins found in Sabaean, Arab and North African culture represent Romans not - not Africans or African Asiatics" - Dana
wouldn't know how to interpret this
No wonder you waited so long to reply to it. lol Well just ignore it and spam away like trolls do. You and Mike are two sides of the same dumbass coin remember?
the quickness of your replies show that you do no research. That is why Mike and I are not trolls and you are. I battle Mike on other grounds. But at least he puts up information. Your sole purpose is to argue for it''s own sake to help you with your self esteem issues
For example of the two possibilities or other possibilities of how dnas remark might apply to the Juba II statue you wouldn't know how to clarify how it would apply to this statue because you fly around looking for shyt to eat
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:the top Buddha from Pakistan is one of the earliest made in 1-2nd century AD influenced by the Greek style
Exactly. You should have provided this type of contextual background when you tried to pass off your Roman coins dickhead. lol
quote:the quickness of your replies show that you do no research. That is why Mike and I are not trolls and you are.
You mean "research" like Nizkor spams and your "whites weren't having as much sex with others as blacks so their civilisations cannot be called mixed" research? lol Please bitch.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Quote: How preposterous that these unmelaninated and barely melaninated creatures would claim "MODERN" provenance in the home of the Black man.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: This is of course what a Berber "REALLY" looks like!
Ha,ha,ha, poor sick and delusional Albinos. How preposterous that these unmelaninated and barely melaninated creatures would claim "MODERN" provenance in the home of the Black man. (Their ancient provenance is of course in Africa - as Albinos).
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:the top Buddha from Pakistan is one of the earliest made in 1-2nd century AD influenced by the Greek style
Exactly. You should have provided this type of contextual background when you tried to pass off your Roman coins dickhead. lol
quote:the quickness of your replies show that you do no research. That is why Mike and I are not trolls and you are.
You mean "research" like Nizkor spams and your "whites weren't having as much sex as blacks so their civilisations cannot be called mixed" research? lol Please bitch.
piece of shyt, Buddha wasn't depicted in human form until hudreds of years after his death.
The coins on the other hand were money, portraits of the Numidan kings made when they were alive.
you = failure
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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