The problem with my position though, is East Asians... Saying that a population developed such a dynamic trait by chance is one thing, but it happened twice on two separate continents under seemingly "similar" pressures. But when we dig deeper, the evidence becomes too overwhelming in favor of my position.
your position is what?
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@ElMaestro. Thanks for reliving the subject. I went back to the Mallick et al paper yesterday which I broke down several years ago, and new revelations came to me.
I mis-quoted the age of SLC24A5. The author may be correct that the age of the mutation is >25Kyo BUT he also stated that selective sweep only took place about 3000ya!!!!! Which is what I was implying. Now this will align with what we are observing with ancient Black Europeans. So, yes, Europeans were black up to about 6000bc per La Brana and Loschbour etc.
The author stated that the mutation occurs in some Bantu and Khoi-San Africa population But the version is very unique(heterozygous). Their investigation also conclude for all global population the mutation came from a SINGLE ancestor. Significance?
Here are some interesting quotes:
QUOTES -------------- HapMap populations estimated that the most intense signals of selection detected in European and East Asian populations are found in haplotypes which extend 0.52 cM on average in length [20]. Assuming a star-shaped genealogy and a generation time of 25 years, the authors dated the peak of these signals to ,6.6 KYA [20]. They also observed that the second longest haplotype (1.15 cM) in Europe includes SLC24A5, where rs1426654-A was found to be fixed. Using the same formula used by Voight [20] to date the average peaks of selection signals in Europe and East Asia, the selective sweep specifically at SLC24A5 in the HapMap European sample can be dated to ,3 KYA. Besides this, a recent study by Beleza [42], focusing on analyses of diversity in microsatellite loci, estimated that the selective sweep at SLC24A5 occurred around 11.3 KYA (95% CI, 1–55.8 KYA) and 18.7 KYA (5.8–38.3 KYA) under additive and dominant models, respectively [42].
We conclude that all of the 73 phased chromosomes (from Europe, sub-Saharan Africa, Middle East, South Asia, North and Central Asia) with the rs1426654-A allele form a monophyletic group because they share the same haplotype background regardless of their geographic origin. In other words, all carriers of the mutation in our global sample share it by descent. The presence of the derived A allele in sub-Saharan Africa, although in low frequencies (2/73 - one heterozygous Mandeka and one heterozygous San individual) (Figure S3) is consistent with earlier findings [32]. We estimated the coalescence time of the rs1426654 mutation at 28,100 years (95% CI - 4,900 to 58,400 years) using BEAST. Using the same mutation rate, the coalescent age estimated by rho statistics was 21,702 years 610,282 years. Despite the different assumptions used in the two coalescent age estimation methods, both the age estimates show substantial overlap.
One of the key pigmentation genes in humans is SLC24A5 (OMIM 609802). It is located on chromosome 15q21.1 and encodes a protein called NCKX5. The association of this gene with lighter pigmentation was initially discovered in zebrafish [4]. Using admixed populations, it was further demonstrated in this study [4] that a non-synonymous variant (ref SNP ID: rs1426654) in the third exon of this gene explains 25–38% of the skin color variation between Europeans and West Africans. The ancestral (G) allele of the SNP predominates in African and East Asian populations (93–100%), whereas the derived (A) allele is almost fixed in Europe (98.7–100%) [4]. Functional assays of this gene suggested its direct involvement in human melanogenesis through cation-exchange activity [17], [18]. However, the fact that the ancestral (G) allele is virtually fixed not only in Africans but also in East Asians suggests that light skin at high latitudes evolved independently in East and West Eurasia [19]. Genome-wide
Although we observe a considerable local heterogeneity, there is a general trend of rs1426654-A allele frequency being higher in the Northern (0.7060.18) and Northwestern regions (0.8760.13), moderate in the Southern (0.5560.22), and very low or virtually absent in Northeastern populations of the Indian subcontinent (Figure 2, Table S6). Notably, the Onge and the Great Andamanese populations of Andaman Islands also showed absence of the derived-A allele. Given the fact that one can observe a pronounced latitudinal cline for skin pigmentation across world populations, we also sought to test the observed derived-A allele frequencies in terms of absolute latitude and longitude in South Asia. We found that the rs1426654-A allele frequency in South Asia does not significantly correlate with latitude (r =0.23, p = 0.15). However, a significant negative correlation with longitude (r =20.49; p =0.002) was observed.
The isofrequency map illustrates high frequencies of the rs1426654-A allele in Europe, Middle East, Pakistan, moderate to high frequencies in Northwest and Central Asia, while being almost absent in East Asians and Africans with notable exceptions in Bantu (Southwest), San, Mandeka, and Ethiopians (Table S7, Figure 2). As rs1426654-A allele frequency was found to be higher in West Eurasian populations that are known to share one of the genome-wide ancestry components of South Asia [24], [25], we sought to test the correlation between the derived-A allele frequency and the proportion of
identified variants were novel. The insertion present in the 59 flanking region (position 48411803) was confined to two San individuals (San 15 and San 17). Comparison of polymorphic sites across different regions revealed that the exons of SLC24A5 are highly conserved in humans. We detected only two variable positions within exons, with rs1426654 being the only nonsynonymous SNP. The other variant, a synonymous (Ser-Ser) mutation identified at exon 7 at position 48431227, was shared by four Africans. In contrast to low variation in the exonic region, a highly polymorphic tetranucleotide repeat (GAAA) was observed in the 59 flanking region (GAAA-GA-GAAA-GAAAAA-(GAAA)n- GAAAAA-GAAAA) at position 48412029. These repeats varied from 3 to 12 copies. A detailed analysis of the repeats did not reveal any correlation with the geographical origin of the samples
observed among and within 8 different geographical regions using 11741 bp sequence data are summarized in Figure 4. Populations from regions previously reported to exhibit a high frequency of the rs1426654-A allele (North Africa and Middle East, Central Asia, South Asia and Europe; see Figure 2) show low levels of intra- and inter-population diversity in the resequenced region (Figure 4, Table S11
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Shriver et al and Mathieson et observed correctly. Europeans were black up to about the bronze age. Something triggered the accumulation of white skin beginning about 6000ya. Apparently the mutation always existed or was present in Africa more than 25000ya.
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The only thing that makes sense to account for the white skin be fixed is almost constant war couple that the population naturally becoming lighter and that the population greatly be effected by it were ones that could stabilize the depigmentation.
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So you think it was constant war? You may be right but, nah! Don't think so. Why? Bottle neck? Then massive expansion. It goes back to Davidski model I spoke about earlier. I will to find it and post.
I also think the WOMEN played and very important role in the structure of ancient pre-historic society. Not sure what it was or how it was structured but evidently the female line in Europe has remained unchanged for the last 6000years But the male line has constantly changed. I will speculate that in SSA the same society structure existed. As aDNA for SSA is revealed I expect to see a lineage shift to E1b1a only recently.
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To the newbies who want to get a handle on the discussion.
Fig-S3 has the answers. Missed that chart the first time I discussed the paper several years ago.
Letters A-H are the haplotypes on the locus( genetic area) that the SLC24A5 gene resides on. Haplotypes are essentially "blocks of alleles or codes". What it shows is that the variation with Sub-Saharan Africans is off the charts for SLC24A5 compared to other global populations. But more intriguing is the rs**654-H haplotype is @100 for Europeans but Europeans carry ZERO!!! of the other haplotypes . Indicative of an African origin with increasing frequency AWAY from Africa. Also interesting is that the East Asians carry the other haplotypes but NOT the rs**654-H haplotype. What does it all mean? The mutation probably did NOT exit with the INITIAL OOA migration although it may have been present in Africa at the time of the first OOA. Remember the metapopulation(Onge, Andaman, East Asians) that occupied Eurasia(Europe to Asia) were the same. That is why these Onge, Andamans and La Brana etc were black. So it goes back to my original question. Why did East Asians turn white.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sometimes I surprise myself. How good I am . This was posted on ESR when I did the analysis of SLC24A5 found in Africans
=======
continuing...
Africans has greatest variation/variant of SLC24A5. More than quadruple Europeans and Asians(see chart). SLC24A5 (rs1426654*A) is just ONE of the MANY variants found in Africa. It is not absurd to claim it as Europeans. It is forgery and deception....and delusional.
Back-migration..... HA!!
why have you posted a chart that is impossible to read and no source or link listed?
Is it because you don't want people to know the source and not be able to read it?
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ESR!!! or Table S9 of the Mallick paper
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ESR!!! or Table S9 of the Mallick paper
This is not ESR, try being competent of once and post a chart that is readable and has the title of the article and/or URL listed. That is what other people do. You don't do it because you are trying to hide sources
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if you cannot find ...Table S9 of the Mallick paper, then you .......are in the wrong forum
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The Light Skin Allele of SLC24A5 in South Asians and Europeans Shares Identity by Descent Chandana Basu Mallick , Florin Mircea Iliescu , Märt Möls, Sarah Hill, Rakesh Tamang, Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Rie Goto, Simon Y. W. Ho, Irene Gallego Romero, Federica Crivellaro, Georgi Hudjashov, Niraj Rai, Mait Metspalu, [ ... ], Toomas Kivisild [ view all ] Published: November 7, 2013
S9
The ancestral (G) allele of the SNP predominates in African and East Asian populations (93–100%), whereas the derived (A) allele is almost fixed in Europe (98.7–100%) [4]. Functional assays of this gene suggested its direct involvement in human melanogenesis through cation-exchange activity [17], [18]. However, the fact that the ancestral (G) allele is virtually fixed not only in Africans but also in East Asians suggests that light skin at high latitudes evolved independently in East and West Eurasia
__________________________
The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry
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I have been saying this about 5 years now. European Neolithics did NOT migrate from the Near East. After Analysis of the Enaffa(sp?) and Kefi earlier paper in 2014 I knew this. Europeans are depigmented Africans. The racialist are up in arms about this new paper. There delusion is being exposed. Their world is crumbling. The author still refused to mention Africa for fear of the repercussions. Rabid racist will lynch her. Lol! I guess she did not read Rym Kefi's recent paper. Lol! mtDNA H and U was present in Africa BEFORE Europe. Now since H did NOT come from the Near East and Europe.....tic! toc! tic! toc! Where did it come from Lol! These delusional Europeans
Burying their heads in the sand.
Mitogenome Diversity in Sardinians: a Genetic Window onto an Island's Past - Anna Olivieri 2017
QUOTE: "However, it is also important to realise that even if H3 (and H1) arrived in Sardinia only with the Neolithic, they most likely came from either Spain or elsewhere in the western Mediterranean, and not from the Near East"
=
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Genetics is going to help re-write "history" written by lying delusional racist Europeans. Lol! They know the truth but are trying to delay saying the inevitable. Europeans are depigmented Africans.
Swenet, forget archeology - all your questions are answered in genetics. Archeology is easily misinterpreted but genetics cannot .....lol!
= And guess what? The sampled the Maghreb EXCEPT Tunisia. Lol! And land mass only 100miles from Sardinia. Stooop it! Liars! Lol! We are seeing through your games. Lol!
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xyyman, Cameroonians did not bring the Neolithic farming revolution to Europe and then turn into white people. You seem to take genetics and use it to write sci-fi narratives.
Comparatively the DNA of the Steppe people is closer to modern Europeans than Africans are. How can you get around that?
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quote:Originally posted by Xyyman: Swenet, forget archeology - all your questions are answered in genetics. Archeology is easily misinterpreted but genetics cannot .....lol!
Genetics can also be misinterpreted. For instance, you make a spectacle out of the fact that Europeans have low variation in the haplotype background of their SLC24A5 SNP. But this is to be expected as they're fixed for the light skin allele. Their loss of variation at this locus doesn't say anything other than that 100% derived SLC24A5 necessitates 0% of the other haplotypes that occur in Asians. In other words, 100% of one and 0% of the other are two sides of the same coin, not two separate findings.
You also build a grand narrative around blue eyed and blonde haired Africans, making a link with La Braña. But La Braña wasn't blonde haired.
You have have a lot of work to do. You're not there yet. I don't see these gaps being bridged but, as I always say, see if you find the evidence to build your case.
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deleted
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quote:Originally posted by Xyyman: Swenet, forget archeology - all your questions are answered in genetics. Archeology is easily misinterpreted but genetics cannot .....lol!
Genetics can also be misinterpreted. For instance, you make a spectacle out of the fact that Europeans have low variation in the haplotype background of their SLC24A5 SNP. But this is to be expected as they're fixed for the light skin allele. Their loss of variation at this locus doesn't say anything other than that 100% derived SLC24A5 necessitates 0% of the other haplotypes that occur in Asians. In other words, 100% of one and 0% of the other are two sides of the same coin, not two separate findings.
You also build a grand narrative around blue eyed and blonde haired Africans, making a link with La Braña. But La Braña wasn't blonde haired.
You have have a lot of work to do. You're not there yet. I don't see these gaps being bridged but, as I always say, see if you find the evidence to build your case.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Ever the BSer
xyyman is doing a bluff here he has made these red and blue marks on this chart with no explanation, baiting He won't state why he has placed these markings there. He's pretending that these marks must be making a comment
He won't explain it, he's bullshytting
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If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.
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The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry
^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans
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Keyword: "as expected". Nothing groundbreaking about the low variation in some modern European skin pigmentation haplotypes.
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The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry
^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans
Why are you quoting this? are you confused? dafuq?
--
Just a tip to remember, multiple polymorphisms can exist at a single loci 100% fixation =/= 0% peripheral up/downstream mutation at a coding region Btw, (that's why [LD]Linkage Disequilibrium is a thing).
Xyyman, I warned you... Me from Pg2; " ...Yes, & it should go without saying, that Africans have the most Novel SNPs in just about all significant pigment related loci, but we're not looking at haplogroups. The oldest European is younger than the oldest African after all, this is expected."
Not tryna be politically correct or anything, but we need anthropology or at the very least aDNA to substantiate anything going against the grain... Researchers will always adjust their focal points to their respective biases, a concept regarding genetics specifically can be EASILY manipulated, intentionally or not.
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The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry
^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans
Why are you quoting this? are you confused?
No, Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. (Canfield et al. 2013)
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quote:Just a tip to remember, multiple polymorphisms can exist at a single loci 100% fixation =/= 0% peripheral up/downstream mutation at a coding region Btw, (that's why [LD]Linkage Disequilibrium is a thing).
I wasn't going to say anything, but since you call Lioness out for seemingly no reason: you might want to read what you post before you point out perceived flaws in others' posts. You're not making any sense and you're trying way too hard.
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The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry
^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans
Why are you quoting this? are you confused?
No, Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. (Canfield et al. 2013)
I still don't understand why you(Lioness) keep posting this but anyways, ....here, for you Swenet.
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The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry
^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans
Why are you quoting this? are you confused?
No, Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. (Canfield et al. 2013)
But are nearly absent in Africa, is not all. It only takes a small pocked to move it out and spread it, hypothetically speaking.
quote: […] display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European populations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).
[…]
Although too few African C11 sequences have been determined to draw strong conclusions, those available from the 1000 Genomes Project show no evidence of greater age in the form of greater SNP diversity than the European examples.
—Victor A. Canfield
Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection
Volume 3 Issue 11, November 2013
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HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?
lol! You are a funny dude.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?
lol! You are a funny dude.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.
Published online 2013 Nov 1. doi: 10.1534/g3.113.007484 PMCID: PMC3815065 Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection
Victor A. Canfield,
Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. The distributions of C11 and its parental haplotypes make it most likely that [/b]these two last steps occurred between the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent,[/b] with the A111T mutation occurring after the split between the ancestors of Europeans and East Asians.
Where did C11 originate?
The precursors to C11, haplotypes C3 and C10, are common in East Asia and the New World (Figure S5), but the distribution of C11 indicates that these locations are not likely sites for the origin of C11 or its immediate precursor. Similarly, B6 not associated with C11 is distributed widely in East Asia and the New World (data not shown). The paucity of C3 and C10 among existing African haplotypes suggests that both events leading to the origin of C11 took place outside this continent. Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin.
Because A111T is far from fixation in most Indian samples (Table S1), the high diversity of B-region haplotypes associated with C11 in the GIH sample may be the result of prolonged recombination rather than early arrival of A111T. In fact, the decrease in frequency of A111T to the east of Pakistan suggests that C11 originated farther to the west and after the initial genetic split between western and eastern Eurasians. On this basis, we hold the view that an origin of C11 in the Middle East, broadly defined, is most likely.
posted
Ha! Ha! Ha! ever the provocateur. I broke down C11 discussion several years ago. Posted on ESR.
The FACTS are SS Africans Carry ALL the Haplotypes for SLC24A5 except two found only in Asia. Europeans carry ONLY one found on all 3 land mass!!! The gene has only ONE origin. SSA carry the Unique/Novel versions of the DERIVED as posted the chart Lioness on page2. They did NOT get it from Europeans. Lol! The derived gene age is >25000yo. There is a longitudinal cline is Asia. The Novel genes are even found in the isolated pygmies!
Tic! Toc! Lol! Come one people. You are wasting my time.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?
lol! You are a funny dude.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.
Published online 2013 Nov 1. doi: 10.1534/g3.113.007484 PMCID: PMC3815065 Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection
Victor A. Canfield,
Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. The distributions of C11 and its parental haplotypes make it most likely that [/b]these two last steps occurred between the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent,[/b] with the A111T mutation occurring after the split between the ancestors of Europeans and East Asians.
Where did C11 originate?
The precursors to C11, haplotypes C3 and C10, are common in East Asia and the New World (Figure S5), but the distribution of C11 indicates that these locations are not likely sites for the origin of C11 or its immediate precursor. Similarly, B6 not associated with C11 is distributed widely in East Asia and the New World (data not shown). The paucity of C3 and C10 among existing African haplotypes suggests that both events leading to the origin of C11 took place outside this continent. Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin.
Because A111T is far from fixation in most Indian samples (Table S1), the high diversity of B-region haplotypes associated with C11 in the GIH sample may be the result of prolonged recombination rather than early arrival of A111T. In fact, the decrease in frequency of A111T to the east of Pakistan suggests that C11 originated farther to the west and after the initial genetic split between western and eastern Eurasians. On this basis, we hold the view that an origin of C11 in the Middle East, broadly defined, is most likely.
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lol! You are good. Are you Lioness1 or Lioness2. The new Lioness took awhile to come up with that one.
Simple statement for the simple mind. Yes, confuse the newbies.
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C11 and haplotype H has low frequency in Africa but is OLDER in Africans. In addition it is more variable in Africans as I posted in that table on page 2. Lol! That’s right…confuse and mis-direct….the newbies. SMH Oh! In case you are not following. The frequency of the gene is close to 80% in Southern Europeans NOT 100%. Significance? The gene does NOT make you white. There are whites who do NOT carry the gene fool. So African who carries the gene may not be white. That is why it is called melanin-pathogenisis!!! Several genes are involved. Lol! When all the genes come together . BAMMM!!! You gene Africans with green eyes and the occasional “red bone” African.
You are such a clown.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Yeah, but at the end of the day, the origin of c11 being OOA is based on the scarcity of the parental haplogroups represented in the studied samples, all potential precursors are on the continent, the derived c11 is on the continent, c11 have a much higher frequency than slc24a5 on the continent, EuropeanHG, new farmers, & steppe populations carry the derived haplogroups at moderate to almost fixed frequency regardless of how you put it, it's still southwest Asia vs Africa. Spamming Canfield seems pointless at this stage. My fault ahead of time for errors, at work. Btw... LWK & MKK are SS Africans
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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That is right LWK and MKK are SSA. And As I posted many times to the annoyance of Lioness 1 and 2. LWK may be the pre-cursor to Europeans and Magrebians....Henn et al.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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For the record...even pygmies carry the derived SNP. This marker is very very old. As I speculated. It always existed in homos(not gays) in Africa
^
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sometimes I surprise myself. How good I am . This was posted on ESR when I did the analysis of SLC24A5 found in Africans
=======
continuing...
Africans has greatest variation/variant of SLC24A5. More than quadruple Europeans and Asians(see chart). SLC24A5 (rs1426654*A) is just ONE of the MANY variants found in Africa. It is not absurd to claim it as Europeans. It is forgery and deception....and delusional.
Back-migration..... HA!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?
lol! You are a funny dude.
In Europe, 50% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 50% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 60% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 40% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 70% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 30% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. And so on. So, no, having none of the other haplotypes, but only 100% the SLC24A5-associated one, doesn't mean anything other than that derived SLC24A5 recently rose in frequency. That's why we still generally see 'Asian' haplotypes in pre-Neolithic aDNA. Isn't that one of the takeaways from your thread—the fact that La Brana didn't have the SLC24A5-associated haplotype as recently as the mid-holocene?
It's not my job to educate you. That's your own responsibility; to educate yourself. But I find it interesting that you find this difficult to grasp.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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^To be clear, 'Asian' here simply means whatever skin pigmentation haplotypes AMHs had when they reached Europe from Asia. I could have just as easily said 'OOA haplotypes'.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: When all the genes come together . BAMMM!!! You gene Africans with green eyes and the occasional “red bone” African.
This is not exactly accurate, either. Some Cushitic and Semitic speaking Horner samples have 60%-40% derived SLC24A5 and they are lighter skinned than closely related pastoral Cushitic groups in Kenya and Tanzania. Contrary to what you're suggesting, they don't have the complete package (e.g. they lack derived SLC45A2). To produce lighter skin, there is no need for all the genes to "come together". Whatever that means.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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You on your own Swenet. SMH. There is only so much I can help you out. SMH. Decipher that Gabley Goop circular logic you just said there. Newbies. Enjoy! Hit me up.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?
lol! You are a funny dude.
In Europe, 50% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 50% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 60% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 40% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 70% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 30% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. And so on. So, no, having none of the other haplotypes, but only 100% the SLC24A5-associated one, doesn't mean anything other than that derived SLC24A5 recently rose in frequency. That's why we still generally see 'Asian' haplotypes in pre-Neolithic aDNA. Isn't that one of the takeaways from your thread—the fact that La Brana didn't have the SLC24A5-associated haplotype as recently as the mid-holocene?
It's not my job to educate you. That's your own responsibility; to educate yourself. But I find it interesting that you find this difficult to grasp.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: In Europe, 50% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 50% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 60% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 40% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 70% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 30% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. And so on. So, no, having none of the other haplotypes, but only 100% the SLC24A5-associated one, doesn't mean anything other than that derived SLC24A5 recently rose in frequency. That's why we still generally see 'Asian' haplotypes in pre-Neolithic aDNA. Isn't that one of the takeaways from your thread—the fact that La Brana didn't have the SLC24A5-associated haplotype as recently as the mid-holocene?
You know, it's funny that you was all smug and sh!t last night, yet apparently, a simple concept flew right over head. The crazy thing is, Lioness the person you were supposedly "rescuing" or whatever was spamming an article that literally shows how what you're saying is not necessarily valid in relation to my initial point in the first place... The irony, smh.
Just in case you missed it... remember the statement that I bolded?
quote: The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes,
Having one snp doesn't exclude you from having another. because your population is fixed for having a single SNP dosen't mean you can't have another one in the same region. One reason is because, yes ...you might've finally guessed it, Crossover! how we have the C11 marker/Haplotype in the first place, (a region with two derived and a couple of ancestral alleles btw, but don't mind that.)
I mean bro, look at the other pigment related loci, OCA2 and Slc42a5, lol how can you read about these and say that having a polymorphism doesn't leave space for having another one?
I wan't to believe in you Swenet, but you're breaking my heart.
[LD] insinuates association of different loci, but anyone with sense would know I was referring to the calculation of linkage in generalPosts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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You and xyyman are discussing simp sh!t. In the specific case of slc24a5 there are a few SNPs that were identified OOA in general, and as it just so happens A111 swept Europe leaving no "room" for the other SNPs....ok, and?
But do you know that there's at least 2 mutations at the slc45a2, one novel and the other present in Africa? Did you know that one is fixed and one is not? Do you know that the one in Africa (which probably is the first mutation) isn't the one that fixed in Europe? please explain how that can occur using your rudimentary calculations...
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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To the readers who may not be able to discern the point of contention, the point is that DNA that occurs somewhere on an individual's chromosome is mutually exclusive with other known variations others may have at that exact same locus. So, for instance, you can't have two variations of the same piece of DNA on the same locus, of the same homologous chromosome, in the same individual.
Translated to our situation: Europeans can't have mention-worthy diversity in their SLC24A5 haplotypes because they're already fixed for the derived SLC24A5 allele. Recent selection in Europe removed all the polymorphic SLC24A5 haplotypes inherited from early settlers of Europe. Some of these still occur in Asians. Not because Asians are early Europeans, but because early Europeans and early Asians had the same OOA skin pigmentation genotype immediately after their split.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:As expected from the near fixation of A111T in Europe, the C11 clade predominates there, and all other haplotypes are rare.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: To the readers who may not be able to discern the point of contention, the point is that DNA that occurs somewhere on an individual's chromosome is mutually exclusive with other known variations others may have at that exact same locus. So, for instance, you can't have two variations of the same piece of DNA on the same locus, of the same homologous chromosome, in the same individual.
Translated to our situation: Europeans can't have mention-worthy diversity in their SLC24A5 haplotypes because they're already fixed for the derived SLC24A5 allele. Recent selection in Europe removed all the polymorphic SLC24A5 haplotypes inherited from early settlers of Europe. Some of these still occur in Asians. Not because Asians are early Europeans, but because early Europeans and early Asians had the same OOA skin pigmentation genotype immediately after their split.
Or read the abstract for Eaton 2015 10.1002/ajhb.22678
Or look at tables 3, 4 and 5 On Norton et. al. 2016 10.1002/ajpa.22861
I assume you know basic math, if you can't see how you're wrong I can't help you from there.
and if you wan't to get super technical, no one in this thread have yet to mention a single loci, we've vaguely been referring to genes, the coding region for solute carriers(SLCs) are genes not loci. We've only really been focusing in on SNP's of the slc24a5 gene....but not only that, even if we were more focuses on loci, you'd still be wrong asf. though loci have shorter total distance bp, a chromosome can still crossover within the region, its just more rare. C'mon man, this is simple ****.
Just for the benefit of the doubt I'm going to assume some might not know what the implications of crossing over maybe so here's a SIMPLE breakdown by example. You have a Father who has a Homozygous SNP at the 'A' allele {aa BB}, plus a mom who has a homozygous polymorphism at 'B' giving us {AA bb}- The son will be {Aa bB}, one chromosome being {a B} with the SNP passed down from Dad and the other {A-b} with the SNP passed down from mom.... there's a chance that the chromosomes can crossover between the two SNPs creating an 'a-b' or an 'A-B' phenotype. And if the son passes down a double recessive/polymorphic {a-b} chromosome when mixing with a common homozygous carrier of only SNP at 'A' {aa BB} then viola! you have 2 son's with two SNP's!! (one with a homozygous derived A snp!!!) I mean, it's almost like its entry level biology!!!
I'm officially done now good night... smh.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa.
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection CanField 2013 Highlight in Green represents the two haplogroups said to have crossed over to give us the daughter C11 Hg in question. --Just in case this is hard to grasp for "some", a part of the chromosome within the marked region, ('C') crossed over with another chromosome resulting in a daughter chromosome sharing some SNPs WITHIN the marked region.-- The pinkish-red highlight indicates the haplogroup associated with 'slc24a5-(rs1426654 [A111T])'. Group higlighted in grey are all SS-Africans and the purple is a contemporary Mexican population (which will be important to look at objectively).
What I was trying to convey before was that even though the author suggests a SWAsian origin of C11 this doesn't technically "rule out" an African origin of the Hg, much less the slc24a5 mutation for a bevy of reasons. One being the more blatantly obvious reason/nitpick, in sampling... I mean, we have 3 cultural groups, and two of them are neighbors, everyone knows about the complexity and diversity of Africans in general, I mean it's quite noticeable when comparing the result from the Maasai and Luhya (neighbors!) in this study.
Secondly is the presence of the parent Hg's, they might be infrequent but they're there... both of them are there (in SSA). not only that, but the daughter c11 was found in all three SSA groups. C11 being in YRI w/o the presence of C3 or C10 suggests either a European back migration or an early Asian back migration followed by a possible sweep, eliminating the parent Hg's. Not only that, but like I tried to hint at earlier A LOT of the C11 carriers in SSA Lack the slc24a5 mutation. That suggests that C11 was introduced or arrived in SSA before slc24a5 was widespread. Logically if C11 was to have expanded along with slc24a5 in Europe, it would be impossible for YRI to receive a back migration from Europe, but not have either parental Hg's or the Slc25a4 mutation.
Moving on, our best guess would be an early Asian back migration predating the widespread selection of the mentioned slc24a5 if there was a back migration at all. But it doesn't completely explain the continental occurrence of slc24a5. If they disclosed all minor haplogroups found in SSA containing the rs1426654 snp, and we see that they're not all a subsequent recombination of the C11 haplogroup. the non African origin of slc24a5 mutation is dead whether or not C11 arose in Africa.
there's some other things mentioned in the study regarding the sequence of recombination that I find interesting, but its too technical and not entirely relevant ...like mentioning this study in the first place... Cough* Cough*
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