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Author Topic: were the original fuegians black?
Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
There are numerous descriptions of Tierro del Fuego natives before Popper, none of them describe negroids. The only evidence you actually have offered is Ihle's illustration. So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta, but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries

What do you mean by that?
.
 -

.
Lying Euronut . This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black", with "wooly hair".

 -

Black was the term used to describe Negro people, as illustrated by Pigafetta. This is a silly debate Pigafetta made it clear the Brazilian males were "so Black", while the females were "olivâtre que noir", light brown instead of "so Black". This is nothing new. Women are usually lighter than males in many populations.

Stop claiming the Brazilians were not Negroes/Blacks.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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capra
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^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle.

ah, okay, good.

quote:
As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
I think the two in the BNF are these:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90636125/f1.image.r=24224

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90582797/f1.image.r=5650%20pigafetta

I've got some stuff to do though, let us know what you find out

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the questioner
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"^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us. " - capra

Don't get mad at clyde winters get mad at Carlo Amoretti because it was him that presented this translation

"I think the two in the BNF are these:"-capra
you think or are you sure? but ill read them both and see

if it turns out it is a match we can safely say that the "woolly hair" quote comes from amoretti alone. unless there is some other translation published before him that uses the word "woolly"

the only issue that leaves doubt in this assumption is that carlo amoretti seen the original manuscript which the other manuscripts could have been edited or revised through out the years by copyists

we have to know why did amoretti use "woolly" in his translation.

--------------------
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle.

ah, okay, good.

quote:
As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
I think the two in the BNF are these:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90636125/f1.image.r=24224

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90582797/f1.image.r=5650%20pigafetta

I've got some stuff to do though, let us know what you find out

Lying Euronut . This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black", with "wooly hair".

 -

Black was the term used to describe Negro people, as illustrated by Pigafetta. This is a silly debate Pigafetta made it clear the Brazilian males were "so Black", while the females were "olivâtre que noir", light brown in the French translation, or "point bien noir", not very Black, in the original; instead of "so Black" for Brazilian males.

 -

This is nothing new. Women are usually lighter than males in many populations.

Stop claiming the Brazilians were not Negroes/Blacks.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Don't get mad at clyde winters get mad at Carlo Amoretti because it was him that presented this translation

I'm not blaming him for the "woolly hair" part, I assumed it was accurate too. Lioness was the one who went and checked the original Italian! No, it's his claim that only the women were "olive-coloured". It doesn't say that.

quote:
"I think the two in the BNF are these:"-capra
you think or are you sure? but ill read them both and see

Always better to have more than one person check anyway.
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the lioness,
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Today the term "black" does not have an greed upon meaning. It is not a scientific term.

In addition in 16th and 17th century Europe you will find instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them.
This is unlike classifications in modern America

I don't see instances of old writing where Explorers going into the Americas and remark " they looked just like Africans"

And if you go deep into the Amazon rainforest you can still find people who look like this.
So weher are the other types?


 -

HOwever looking at the features, the nose an lips, one cold argue overlaps, very similar to some common African features

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle.

ah, okay, good.

quote:
As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
I think the two in the BNF are these:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90636125/f1.image.r=24224

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90582797/f1.image.r=5650%20pigafetta

I've got some stuff to do though, let us know what you find out

Lying Euronut . This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black", with "wooly hair".

 -

Black was the term used to describe Negro people, as illustrated by Pigafetta. This is a silly debate Pigafetta made it clear the Brazilian males were "so Black", while the females were "olivâtre que noir", light brown in the French translation, or "point bien noir", not very Black, in the original; instead of "so Black" for Brazilian males.

 -

This is nothing new. Women are usually lighter than males in many populations.

Stop claiming the Brazilians were not Negroes/Blacks.

the Brazilians were vast majority not black

--------------------
Questions expose liars

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Today the term "black" does not have an greed upon meaning. It is not a scientific term.

In addition in 16th and 17th century Europe you will find instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them.
This is unlike classifications in modern America

I don't see instances of old writing where Explorers going into the Americas and remark " they looked just like Africans"

And if you go deep into the Amazon rainforest you can still find people who look like this.
So weher are the other types?


 -

HOwever looking at the features, the nose an lips, one cold argue overlaps, very similar to some common African features

How do you know this native has no African ancestry?

--------------------
Questions expose liars

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the lioness,
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3631640/

Identification of Polynesian mtDNA haplogroups in remains of Botocudo Amerindians from Brazil

Vanessa Faria Gonçalves,a,1 Jesper Stenderup,b,1 Cláudia Rodrigues-Carvalho,c Hilton P. Silva,d Higgor Gonçalves-Dornelas,a Andersen Líryo,c Toomas Kivisild,e Anna-Sapfo Malaspinas,b Paula F. Campos,b,f Morten Rasmussen,b Eske Willerslev,b,2 and Sergio Danilo J. Penaa,2

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3631640/

Identification of Polynesian mtDNA haplogroups in remains of Botocudo Amerindians from Brazil

Vanessa Faria Gonçalves,a,1 Jesper Stenderup,b,1 Cláudia Rodrigues-Carvalho,c Hilton P. Silva,d Higgor Gonçalves-Dornelas,a Andersen Líryo,c Toomas Kivisild,e Anna-Sapfo Malaspinas,b Paula F. Campos,b,f Morten Rasmussen,b Eske Willerslev,b,2 and Sergio Danilo J. Penaa,2

Haplogroups do not tell you your complete genetic makeup

--------------------
Questions expose liars

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Don't get mad at clyde winters get mad at Carlo Amoretti because it was him that presented this translation

I'm not blaming him for the "woolly hair" part, I assumed it was accurate too. Lioness was the one who went and checked the original Italian! No, it's his claim that only the women were "olive-coloured". It doesn't say that.

quote:
"I think the two in the BNF are these:"-capra
you think or are you sure? but ill read them both and see

Always better to have more than one person check anyway.

so far i could not find the "woolly haired" reference in either one of these manuscripts however i did found out that these manuscripts were not originally written by pigafetta but are mere "copies"

"In 1797 Amoretti discovered at the Biblioteca the lost Italian manuscript of Pigafetta on Magellan's voyage, considered by most Magellan scholars as the oldest of four extant manuscripts and the most complete, although there is consensus among paleographic scholars this and all surviving codices are mere copies of an original or originals now deemed forever lost."

proof of this is that the manuscripts do not have the same hand writing

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it


Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source
DATE made 1525

https://www.wdl.org/en/item/3082/

 -


 -


 -

no
im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work

in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian

For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be

His name is on the title page here:


 -

While the original account in Pigafetta is lost that he made on location on the voyage.
It the same man Pigafetta who wrote later another account in recollection of the voyage. Scholars are not in agreement if he wrote the French version himself.

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the lioness,
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 -


 -
"A Native Savage of America" Native American carrying a club,

wearing a feathered headdress and short skirt, and armed with an axe. Hand-colored copperplate engraving from a drawing by Johann Ihle from Ebenezer Sibly's "Universal System of Natural History" 1794. The prolific Sibly published his Universal System of Natural History in 1794~1796 in five volumes covering the three natural worlds of fauna, flora and geology. The series included illustrations of mythical beasts such as the sukotyro and the mermaid, and depicted sloths sitting on the ground (instead of hanging from trees) and a domesticated female orang utan wearing a bandana. The engravings were by J. Pass, J. Chapman and Barlow copied from original drawings by famous natural history artists George Edwards, Albertus Seba, Maria Sybilla Merian, and Johann Ihle. These volumes are extremely hard to find even with uncoloured plates, and very rare coloured. The hand-colouring on these copperplate engravings is particularly rich and intense.

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
so far i could not find the "woolly haired" reference in either one of these manuscripts however i did found out that these manuscripts were not originally written by pigafetta but are mere "copies"

Thanks. The second one is really painful to read - but yeah I checked too and they both say the same thing, "les hommes sont tonduz et ne portent point de barbe...."

Man, it's an amazing time we are living in, that we random dudes can check frigging 16th century manuscripts without stirring from our desks.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
so far i could not find the "woolly haired" reference in either one of these manuscripts however i did found out that these manuscripts were not originally written by pigafetta but are mere "copies"

Thanks. The second one is really painful to read - but yeah I checked too and they both say the same thing, "les hommes sont tonduz et ne portent point de barbe...."

Man, it's an amazing time we are living in, that we random dudes can check frigging 16th century manuscripts without stirring from our desks.

 -

You seemed to have ignored looking at the best version right here that you yourself first linked in the thread

quote:
Originally posted by capra:


> Here < is a downloadable digital scan of one of the original 1525 French versions from the Yale library. Knock yourself out if you want to read the whole thing looking for mention of woolly hair! I checked the bits which describe the hair of the Verzin Indians and the Patagonian giants and they match the published Italian version.



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capra
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Yeah the Yale one is way nicer but we wanted to check all four of the original manuscripts..
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it


Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source
DATE made 1525

https://www.wdl.org/en/item/3082/

 -


 -


 -

no
im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work

in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian

For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be

His name is on the title page here:


 -

While the original account in Pigafetta is lost that he made on location on the voyage.
It the same man Pigafetta who wrote later another account in recollection of the voyage. Scholars are not in agreement if he wrote the French version himself.

You can't prove that he wrote it or supervised over the writings. this is debated by scholars rather he had a hand in its writing or editing.
This version was done by copyist who copied it from the original and perhaps abridged it.

"collation demonstrates, first that the three french manuscripts have so much in common- yet with a number of variants peculiar to one or the other manuscript- that they must all derive by different channels from a single french version, represented by a manuscript not now extant; second, that this version, made by a writer of french language unfamiliar with technical terms in Italian, contained so many undigested italianisms or misrepresentations of italian idioms that it must have been translated, not by pigafetta or even (we must suppose)under his supervision, from an Italian original; and third, the divergence between the surviving french manuscripts (on one hand ) and the italian manuscript (on the other) are too numerous and substantial to permit us to identify ambrosiana manuscript with this original." pg 22 Magellan's Voyage: A Narrative Account of the First Circumnavigation
By Antonio Pigafetta translated and edited by R.A. skelton

--------------------
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Yeah the Yale one is way nicer but we wanted to check all four of the original manuscripts..

we can't call them "original"

--------------------
Questions expose liars

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:

Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition

[url= [url= https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da ]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+d a [/url] l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per +la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta[/url]


This is pertinent section, talking about skin and hair page 19
(also see 17, 18

I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri: vanno ígnudi non coprendo nemmeno le parti sessuali;~ma sidipingono stranamente tutto il corpo e’l volto col fuoco in diverse ma niere; e lo fanno le donne come igli uomini. Non hanno lunga capigliatura, ne’barba, ne’peli in alcuna parte, perchè
'si pelano (c) . Hanno veſti di plume di papagallo fatte in maniera, che le grandi penne dell’uccello formano dietro un cerchio a ruota (d), che a noſtri occhi era cosa- assai ridicola. Quasi tutti gli uomini (non però* le femmine .e i fanciulli) hanno al labbro di sotto tre buchi dai quali pendono de’ ci


_______________________________

we need an accurate translation


 -


 -

___________________________________________
.


.

Below is the alternate Italian translation I linked earlier
https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Relazione_del_primo_viaggio_intorno_al_mondo
quote:


Questa gente si dipingono meravigliosamente tutto il corpo e il volto con fuoco in diverse maniere; anche le donne; sono tosi e senza barba, perchè se la pelano. Se vestono de vestiture de piume di pappagallo, con rode grandi al culo de le penne maggiori, cosa ridicola. Quasi tutti li uomini, eccetto le femmine e fanciulli, hanno tre busi nel labbro de sotto, ove portano pietre rotonde e longhe uno dito, e piú e meno di fuora pendente. Non sono del tutto negri, ma olivastri; portano descoperte le parte vergognose; el suo corpo è senza peli, e cosí omini qual donne sempre vanno nudi. Il suo re è chiamato cacich. Hanno infinitissimi pappagalli e ne dànno 8, o 10 per uno specchio; e gatti maimoni piccoli; fatti come leoni, ma gialli, cosa bellissima. Fanno pane rotondo bianco de midolla de arbore, non molto buono, che nasce fra l'arbore e la scorza ed è come ricotta: hanno porci che sopra la schiena tenono il loro ombelico, e uccelli grandi che hanno el becco come uno cucchiaro, senza lingua.


--Notizie del Mondo nuovo con le figure dei paesi scoperti
descritti da

ANTONIO PIGAFETTA

vicentino, cavaliere di Rodi


ANTONIO PIGAFETTA PATRIZIO VICENTINO E CAVALIER DE RODI A L'ILLUSTRISSIMO ED ECCELLENTISSIMO SIGNOR FILIPPO DE VILLERS LISLEADAM, INCLITO GRAN MAISTRO DI RODI, SIGNOR SUO OSSERVANDISSIMO.



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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
You can't prove that he wrote it or supervised over the writings. this is debated by scholars rather he had a hand in its writing or editing.
This version was done by copyist who copied it from the original and perhaps abridged it.


So you never should have brought it up in the first place


And you could make the same argument about any writing in a book , maybe the people who printed or hand copied the text changed it
-Now you may have to throw out all your argument where you bring up what the Greeks said etc.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
You can't prove that he wrote it


So now you are saying this is not even an editing or translation issue, that Pigafetta whose name is on the title pages of these books may not have even written it, they may have lied when they put his name there. I keep explaining over and over, the original journal is lost but the second text that we are looking at here is also written by Piagetta himself in recollection of his voyage. So it's not like there is no Piagetta account at all
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
You can't prove that he wrote it or supervised over the writings. this is debated by scholars rather he had a hand in its writing or editing.
This version was done by copyist who copied it from the original and perhaps abridged it.


So you never should have brought it up in the first place


And you could make the same argument about any writing in a book , maybe the people who printed or hand copied the text changed it
-Now you may have to throw out all your argument where you bring up what the Greeks said etc.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
You can't prove that he wrote it


So now you are saying this is not even an editing or translation issue, that Pigafetta whose name is on the title pages of these books may not have even written it, they may have lied when they put his name there. I keep explaining over and over, the original journal is lost but the second text that we are looking at here is also written by Piagetta himself in recollection of his voyage. So it's not like there is no Piagetta account at all

the issue is not if the text is true to its original

my argument is that it may be an abridged version

the issue is the "woolly hair" reference, how do we know it wasn't taken out because all the versions you presented doesn't even describe the hair texture of the natives.

"So now you are saying this is not even an editing or translation issue, that Pigafetta whose name is on the title pages of these books may not have even written it, they may have lied when they put his name there. I keep explaining over and over, the original journal is lost but the second text that we are looking at here is also written by Piagetta himself in recollection of his voyage. So it's not like there is no Piagetta account at all"- the lioness

we can't say he personally wrote the manuscript because the hand writing is not the same on any of the manuscripts.

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the questioner
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can someone find the Biblioteca Ambrosiana manuscript? Ill end the debate if anyone can find that manuscript

its too much controversy around the french version manuscripts

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 -


 -


https://archive.org/stream/magellansvoyagea01piga#page/40/mode/2up

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


https://archive.org/stream/magellansvoyagea01piga#page/40/mode/2up [/qb]

^^^ whats your point? this is from the french version

i want the Italian manuscript not the 1900 print

[ 11. November 2017, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

This is pertinent section, talking about skin and hair page 19
(also see 17, 18

I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri: vanno ígnudi non coprendo nemmeno le parti sessuali;~ma sidipingono stranamente tutto il corpo e’l volto col fuoco in diverse ma niere; e lo fanno le donne come igli uomini. Non hanno lunga capigliatura, ne’barba, ne’peli in alcuna parte, perchè
'si pelano (c) . Hanno veſti di plume di papagallo fatte in maniera, che le grandi penne dell’uccello formano dietro un cerchio a ruota (d), che a noſtri occhi era cosa- assai ridicola. Quasi tutti gli uomini (non però* le femmine .e i fanciulli) hanno al labbro di sotto tre buchi dai quali pendono de’ ci

_______________________________

we need an accurate translation


 -


 -

___________________________________________
.


.

ANTONIO PIGAFETTA

vicentino, cavaliere di Rodi


ANTONIO PIGAFETTA PATRIZIO VICENTINO E CAVALIER DE RODI A L'ILLUSTRISSIMO ED ECCELLENTISSIMO SIGNOR FILIPPO DE VILLERS LISLEADAM, INCLITO GRAN MAISTRO DI RODI, SIGNOR SUO OSSERVANDISSIMO.


[/QUOTE]


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.

This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.
.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:


I think the two in the BNF are these:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90636125/f1.image.r=24224

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90582797/f1.image.r=5650%20pigafetta


The second one is hand written in pen, very interesting

What manuscript is this?

I was trying looking for a navigation tool for a word search, it doesn't look like there are any unless I missed it

Can anybody find the right section? It comes right after
Jean Carvajo is mentioned. He is mentioned just twice in the book under various spellings in different versions

Jean Carvajo
Johane Carnagio
Joao Carvalho

Also "plumes" is mentioned, parrot feathers in this section

I had a hard time trying to find the right section
In this second link above

One method is to take some words that are around page 18 and search them in google with Pigafetta's name that might link to one of the versions in a word searchable form on some other website , Once you're there you can look for plume or lèvre (lip in French) and this name Carvajo (use only Carv or Carn )
Then home in on the location and then go back to the other text back and forth to get closer and closer

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.

This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.

in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them and anybody else less than pale
This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.


 -
Kamayurá man, of an indigenous tribe in the Amazonian Basin of Brazil

Some of these tribes also paint their bodies and it may not always be easy to tell they are painted

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.

This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.

in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them.
This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.



intersting

Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?

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There are many theories regarding who was the first European to set foot on the land now called Brazil. Besides the widely accepted view of Cabral's discovery, some say that it was Duarte Pacheco Pereira between November and December 1498[3][4] and some others say that it was first encountered by Vicente Yáñez Pinzón, a Spanish navigator who had accompanied Colombus in his first voyage of discovery to the Americas, having supposedly arrived in today's Pernambuco region on 26 January 1500 but was unable to claim the land because of the Treaty of Tordesillas.[5] In April 1500, Brazil was claimed for Portugal on the arrival of the Portuguese fleet commanded by Pedro Álvares Cabral.[6] The Portuguese encountered stone-using natives divided into several tribes, many of whom shared the same Tupi–Guarani language family, and fought among themselves




 -
Albert Eckhout's painting of the Tupi

Albert Eckhout (c.1610–1665) was a Dutch portrait and still life painter. Eckhout, who was born in Groningen, was among the first European artists to paint scenes from the New World. In 1636 he traveled to Dutch Brazil, where he stayed until 1644, invited by count John Maurice, Prince of Nassau-Siegen.[1] There, he painted portraits of the natives, slaves and mulattos of Brazil in the seventeenth century, besides numerous sketches of plants and animals

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(my quote removed, repetative-lioness)


there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare

[ 11. November 2017, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.

This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.

in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them.
This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.



intersting

Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?

It's unnecessary

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.


Incorrect

" anzi che" translates to "rather than" or "on the contrary"

meaning they were olive rather than black

"and" is "e", not appearing in that sentence

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare

But there are people even today, deep in the Amazon like the Yanomami who didn't encounter Europeans until the 1940s
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.

This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.

in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them.
This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.



intersting

Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?

It's unnecessary

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.


Incorrect

" anzi che" translates to "rather than" or "on the contrary"

meaning they were olive rather than black

"and" is "e", not appearing in that sentence

then why make the claim?

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Something interesting is that if look at Brazil the closest place in the Americas to Africa is around Liberia/Sierra Leone

Ethiopia and Tanzania are some of the furthest places, on the other side of the continent.

 -
Mursi tribe, Ethiopia

 -
Suya tribe, Brazil


It is remarkable how this is in both places.

Ironically the Amazonian lip plates there are associated with oratory and singing (not in Ethiopia though)

I haven't research lip plates much but I would guess that they evolved out of some less extreme modification of the lip

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.

This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.

in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them.
This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.



intersting

Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?

It's unnecessary

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.


Incorrect

" anzi che" translates to "rather than" or "on the contrary"

meaning they were olive rather than black

"and" is "e", not appearing in that sentence

then why make the claim?
I have shown it in English writing before but haven't researched Italian.
I said that before I realized that the quote was saying olive rather than black instead of olive and black, got to watch those diversions again

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Something interesting is that if look at Brazil the closest place in the Americas to Africa is around Liberia/Sierra Leone

Ethiopia and Tanzania are some of the furthest places, on the other side of the continent.

 -
Mursi tribe, Ethiopia

 -
Suya tribe, Brazil


It is remarkable how this is in both places.

Ironically the Amazonian lip plates there are associated with oratory and singing (not in Ethiopia though)

I haven't research lip plates much but I would guess that they evolved out of some less extreme modification of the lip

The Portuguese did bring slaves from east Africa to Brazil

(not making any claims)

you will have to study the history of these customs to find out the origin

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Highly unlikely, it is these aboriginal Brazilians in the Amazon who were and are most isolated from European colonizers
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Thereal
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Stop lying,who are these tan Europeans as the only way the could've existed is admixture with darker people or these "dark whites" mutated and create the contemporary Euros sense they use they word swarthy to describe dark skin and whites finally acknowledge African people in medieval Europe though they were there earlier it makes no sense they would call people slightly darker than themselves black.

Not brazil but why do these toas Indians look different from the Brazilian Indian as whites state Indians and Africans rarely mixed.

http://www.americanindianmagazine.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/galleryformatter_full/content_images/p21310.png

http://ragtagriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/hero28.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
Stop lying,who are these tan Europeans as the only way the could've existed is admixture with darker people or these "dark whites" mutated and create the contemporary Euros sense they use they word swarthy to describe dark skin and whites finally acknowledge African people in medieval Europe though they were there earlier jt makes no sense they would call people slightly darker than themselves black.

Do be ignorant and say I'm lying

Book:John Macky (d. 1726)
'Memoirs of the Secret Services'

 -

^ last line "a black man"


 -
Daniel Finch Earl of Nottingham, Secretary of State

Now apply this standard as someone regarded as black and then look at the Brazilian, then don't because the quote in fact said olivastri anzi che neri

I am not going to allow this thread to divert to European nobility, stick to the topic

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Thereal
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comment deleted, you can make a separate topic suggesting Africans involved in Nanban trade weren't Africans and then show evidence, off topic

[ 11. November 2017, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:


Not brazil but why do these toas Indians look different from the Brazilian Indian as whites state Indians and Africans rarely mixed.

http://www.americanindianmagazine.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/galleryformatter_full/content_images/p21310.png

http://ragtagriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/hero28.jpg [/QB]

Why would one expect people of New Mexico to look like Amazonians?
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Thereal
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Mexico is in the south and up until the late 18th and early 19th century did not see substantial immigration of non Europeans so the only mixing would be with is Africans or Europeans,the video of modern Mayan shows phenotype similarities with the Brazilian Indian.
https://youtu.be/i4SWnMJhHAw

My comment wasn't of topic as Spain and Portugal are connected so the implications is easy to understand with my initial comment.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
Stop lying,who are these tan Europeans as the only way the could've existed is admixture with darker people or these "dark whites" mutated and create the contemporary Euros sense they use they word swarthy to describe dark skin and whites finally acknowledge African people in medieval Europe though they were there earlier jt makes no sense they would call people slightly darker than themselves black.

Do be ignorant and say I'm lying

Book:John Macky (d. 1726)
'Memoirs of the Secret Services'

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/Crests/John_Macky/John_macky_004.jpg

^ last line "a black man"


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Daniel_Finch%2C_2nd_Earl_of_Nottingham_and_7th_Earl_of_Winchilsea_by_Jonathan_Richardson.jpg/640px-Daniel_Finch%2C_2nd_Earl _of_Nottingham_and_7th_Earl_of_Winchilsea_by_Jonathan_Richardson.jpg
Daniel Finch Earl of Nottingham, Secretary of State

Now apply this standard as someone regarded as black and then look at the Brazilian, then don't because the quote in fact said olivastri anzi che neri

I am not going to allow this thread to divert to European nobility, stick to the topic

that is English not Italian

[ 11. November 2017, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
Mexico is in the south and up until tke the late 18th and early 19th century did not see substantial immigration of non Europeans so the only mixing would be with is Africans or Europeans,the video of modern Mayan shows phenotype similarities with the Brazilian Indian.
https://youtu.be/i4SWnMJhHAw

Please wake up Toas Indians are New Mexico not Mexico, over 1000 miles away
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No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
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Thereal
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That's not the point,the native Americans show a large phenotype variance for a population that 90% of the people were killed and could've only mixed with Africans or Europeans at a certain time in history before immigration as the racial breakdown of Brazil today is whites,pardos,blacks and Indians ,there are minority groups but the black population is larger than the Indians and minority groups combined so that "black" label could not apply to the Chinese looking Indians.
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta

Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta

Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego

Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!

that means look for other authors on the Fuegians

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
(my quote removed, repetative-lioness)


there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare

It is wrong for you to edit this post. It makes one feel you are trying to hide something.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta

Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego

Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!

that means look for other authors on the Fuegians

lioness' I know we disagree on most things, But I would like to thank you for the fine research you have done in finding primary data for this topic.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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