quote:Originally posted by young at heart: I am no expert on religion but as far as I am aware a Muslim man can marry from the 3 books. Meaning Islam accepts others. Or Am I talking rubbish
Yes YAH men can marry Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: a woman doesn't marry non muslim then it's the same for men to not marry non muslim as the quraan said for bothe men and women to not get married with
I do not know why you keep saying this after the sahih Hadith I posted about the prophet which say"we marry the women of bible and Torah
but you said before that there were explicit orders in Quran NOT to marry atheits AND Christians!!
I said Christians can be classified as ATHEIST FROM an Islamic point of view
In your opinion
I do not know how to tell you this ,it can be classified but it is not used because simply Allah did not call them as atheist,the problem with the word it is not one-one correspondence to the word Mushrek ,the word Moshrek means to worship someone else with Allah,which indeed happens in Christianity as they beleive that Jesus is son of Mary which makes them Atheist from an Islamic point of View,the word Atheist when used in Islam means to deny the Islamic monotheism,that is it
Jesus IS the son of Mary, ALLAH said he is the son of Mary you idiot. An atheist does not believe in God, Christians DO. Christians are not atheists! READ QURAN!! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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The point about a muslima not marrying a non muslim is that her kids will be non muslims according to their father's religion, hence a drop in the muslim population, whilst in case of the muslim man marrying a non muslima (JEW or CHRISTIAN) the kids automatically become muslims like their dad and muslim population is preserved.
Capiche ?? Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: a woman doesn't marry non muslim then it's the same for men to not marry non muslim as the quraan said for bothe men and women to not get married with
I do not know why you keep saying this after the sahih Hadith I posted about the prophet which say"we marry the women of bible and Torah
but you said before that there were explicit orders in Quran NOT to marry atheits AND Christians!!
I said Christians can be classified as ATHEIST FROM an Islamic point of view
In your opinion
I do not know how to tell you this ,it can be classified but it is not used because simply Allah did not call them as atheist,the problem with the word it is not one-one correspondence to the word Mushrek ,the word Moshrek means to worship someone else with Allah,which indeed happens in Christianity as they beleive that Jesus is son of Mary which makes them Atheist from an Islamic point of View,the word Atheist when used in Islam means to deny the Islamic monotheism,that is it
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The point about a muslima not marrying a non muslim is that her kids will be non muslims according to their father's religion, hence a drop in the muslim population, whilst in case of the muslim man marrying a non muslima (JEW or CHRISTIAN) the kids automatically become muslims like their dad and muslim population is preserved.
Capiche ??
(Capisci): this is the way it has to be written plus i'm sorry to tell that what u said is wrong if u read my posts before u will find out that most of the kids who r from muslim wives became automatically christians as their mothers and the kids who r from christian wives became automatically christian as their moms because the kids r most of the times more close to their mom and because many men ( NOT ALL ) marry western women to travel and to make them credit cards and visas...etc then after they get what they want they leave them with the kids then they have to follow their moms and these cases i'm talking about cases i saw by my self.
According to data I’ve got at 1980, 50% of children of Muslims who marry non Muslim woman were Muslims. But, where the mother is Muslim and father is non Muslim, the number is higher: up to 77% would be Muslim. That number increased in 1990 by up to 79%. Hence it could be said that Muslim woman’s capability to make her children muslims when she marries a non Muslim is higher than if it is the husband who is Muslim. The mother’s domination can’t be separated from her role as the primary nurturer of her children. For example, this can be seen in the following table:”
Affiliation of Children of IFM couple according to religion, Year and Sex of Parent
Religion 1980 1990 2000 Husband
Wife
Husband
Wife
Husband
Wife
1. Islam
50.0
77.1
57.0
79.0
13.0
61.9
2. Protestant
18.8
29.0
27.1
41.0
16.0
55.6
3. Catholic
46.2
75.5
41.8
51.0
25.0
93.8
4. Hindu
8.6*
33.3*
5.6
0
40.0
-
5. Buddhist
-
-
4.8
0
-
-
6. Others
-
-
20.0
0
So u better be giving me a convincing logic reason
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: I am no expert on religion but as far as I am aware a Muslim man can marry from the 3 books. Meaning Islam accepts others. Or Am I talking rubbish
Yes YAH men can marry
1º Argument: “Muslim are not allow to marry non Muslims according to Quran [2:221]”
Answer: The [2:221] in Holy Quran only proves that Muslims can’t marry Pagans
Some malicious Muslims use this verse to cheat people to not marry non Muslim because most people don’t know the meaning of idolatresses. Idolatresses means pagan (check the dictionary) but some people may ask: “Maybe in the Arabic Quran the word is not idolatresses.” In Arabic Quran al-musyrikât means the same… check these other 4 translations made by different Arabs, those are considered official translations:
And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. By Shakir
Do not marry pagan women unless they believe in God. A believing slave girl is better than an idolater, even though the idolaters may attract you. Do not marry pagan men unless they believe in God. A believing slave is better than an idolater, even though the idolater may attract you. The pagans invite you to the fire, but God invites you to Paradise and forgiveness through His will. God shows His evidence to people so that they may take heed. By Sarwar
And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember. By H/K/Saheeh
Do not marry pagan women until they become believers; a believing slave woman is better than a free pagan woman even though she may be more attractive to you. Likewise, do not marry pagan men until they become believers: a believing slave is better than a free pagan even though he may be more pleasing to you. These pagans invite you to the hellfire while Allah invites you towards paradise and forgiveness by His grace. He makes His revelations clear to mankind so that they may take heed. By Malik
This verse tells us that male and female pagans are not good to marry Muslims (and Christians and Jews).
2th Argument: “Muslim men are allow to marry non-Muslims but Muslim women are not allow to do it”
Answer: The Quran doesn’t say that Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslims.
Give me ayah from the Quraan saying that a woman shouldn't marry a non muslim and if u consider moshrekeen ( *who believes in another God with Allah*) in the ayah i mentioned above r atheists and if they consider christians or jews as atheists then it is not allowed to men to marry non muslims too
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: Well pinkmoon, all I can say is look for different people. Of course you dont want a guy who has been having sex and then judges you, but they cant ALL be like this in Egypt, as men and women are never all the same.
If you really think that all Egyptian men are hypocrites then look elsewhere, marry a different nationality, it doesn't look like anyone is going to change your mind about Egyptian men here.
I want to say something for the people who read my posts here and think that i'm saying those things for personal reasons they r wrong because i'm engaged already and thx God i have a religious and in the same time open minded family and I do what i want and what i see correct and i'm just discussing the situation in Egypt and how i c things around me and all the unfair things that r happening to women here. I first posted one question u can c it on the first page of the posts i only asked why men get jealous when an Egyptian woman is talking to a Western men then i got many non logic not intelligent answers from people which did lead to many things we r discussing now and i don't like the unfair things that r happening to many girls in the east but I'm talking only about Egypt cos this is where i live and where i can see and know everything about it's situation very well
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: a woman doesn't marry non muslim then it's the same for men to not marry non muslim as the quraan said for bothe men and women to not get married with
I do not know why you keep saying this after the sahih Hadith I posted about the prophet which say"we marry the women of bible and Torah
but you said before that there were explicit orders in Quran NOT to marry atheits AND Christians!!
I said Christians can be classified as ATHEIST FROM an Islamic point of view
That is YOUR point of view, NOT the point of view of ALLAH and Quran!! How DARE you! YOU make it up as you go along and you DARE to question my faith? You have contradicted everything in Quran, explicit, clear instructions you replace with your own rediculous opinions and the opinions of your 'scientists', you make Islam a laughing stock!
Ahmad, learn to THINK and then THINK before you post anymore rubbish comments like that.
YOU claimed the Quran verse said a Muslim man or woman cant marry a christian and then you claim another verse allows men to marry a christian. I pointed out your blatant contradiction TWICE but you evaded it and you have done so again.
There is NO verse that says a Muslim man or woman cannot marry a Christian or a Jew, anything more you insist on this subject is YOUR opinion and NOT the opinion of Allah, Quran OR ISLAM.
Ahmad u r making me laugh Ayisha is right u contradicted ur self first u said men r allowed to marry christians and jews then u said that christians r considered Atheists, but christians r not atheists anyway
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: Well pinkmoon, all I can say is look for different people. Of course you dont want a guy who has been having sex and then judges you, but they cant ALL be like this in Egypt, as men and women are never all the same.
If you really think that all Egyptian men are hypocrites then look elsewhere, marry a different nationality, it doesn't look like anyone is going to change your mind about Egyptian men here.
I want to say something for the people who read my posts here and think that i'm saying those things for personal reasons they r wrong because i'm engaged already and thx God i have a religious and in the same time open minded family and I do what i want and what i see correct and i'm just discussing the situation in Egypt and how i c things around me and all the unfair things that r happening to women here. I first posted one question u can c it on the first page of the posts i only asked why men get jealous when an Egyptian woman is talking to a Western men then i got many non logic not intelligent answers from people which did lead to many things we r discussing now and i don't like the unfair things that r happening to many girls in the east but I'm talking only about Egypt cos this is where i live and where i can see and know everything about it's situation very well
That's fantastic. Now that question is, do you now see the lack of logic in your argument? Do you now see that what you were asking for is contradictory to your own belief?
-You are religious but you wanted to go out with men, kiss them, dance with them...etc.
-You criticized men for their behavior only because they did not approve of women behaving the same way.
-You preferred western men for all the wrong reasons. Being that they approved of you behaving contrary to your own beliefs. A hypocrite.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Maybe u will say how i mentioned dancing and now i say religious because we all do mistakes in our lives no one is angel i know my religion very well i fear god but i make mistakes i'm not perfect, we r not perfect but this doesn't mean that if we do something wrong that we do everything wrong a good person has limits a good person is a man or a woman we r humans , man+woman = human
This is the exact same logic, or lack there of, that men use.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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It's not about what i want or what i don't want it is about they give themselves right to make mistakes then judge women, men and women r equal in rights and different in the way they r created it is. EQUALLY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y5Ma9Y_ask As u said before if a man orders a woman to wear the veil and he is not praying it doesn't men he lost all his faith which is not logic for a man to order a woman to wear the veil when he is full of mistakes, and if i am religious i am not perfect and anyone who will be religious will never be perfect cos God said that if the people stopped making mistakes he will create others to make mistakes to ask him forgiveness. And as men in Egypt r free to make mistakes and be proud of them which is wrong women r free also to be good or to be bad to be religious or not and then God will punish all the same no difference so be logic
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
And i didn't prefer a western man for the wrong things and i said and i say again bad and good exists everywhere on the world, men and women all nationalities but with a western man, the woman can be honestand tell him everything without lies without fearing what he might think of her, but with an eastern man she has to act as an angel so he can accept her, and i am not living this life which is full of lies and fake things and i will tell to all women to wake up and when they do a mistake they should only fear God not an Egyptian man
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
pink moon if there is a man in this world that cant accept me for me then screw him.i would never act like an angel for any man what u see is what u get. no lies no harm.
-------------------- your ass is so tight when you fart only a dog can hear it.when you queef only a cat can hear that one. Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: most of the Egyptian men aren't virgin
Excuse me but this is not true with my all respect to your opinions,
What do y think the young (and not so young) egyptian guys in Sharm, Hurghada, Cairo, Luxor ect. are doing with the turist women?? Playing monopoly?????
Yes they do it with western men in sharm and other places but also with many egyptian girls but it's not that easy but they do if u go to an egyptian university u will hear a lot and a lot of stories about those things but they don't do it that easy they have to make stories and act they love the girl and they want to marry her and this kind of things till he gets her so he it takes him a while to get his victim, and some do t with prostitutes they get from the streets or anywhere whatever it is and give them money, but with tourists they think it is easier cos they know that they have different mentalities
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: Well pinkmoon, all I can say is look for different people. Of course you dont want a guy who has been having sex and then judges you, but they cant ALL be like this in Egypt, as men and women are never all the same.
If you really think that all Egyptian men are hypocrites then look elsewhere, marry a different nationality, it doesn't look like anyone is going to change your mind about Egyptian men here.
I want to say something for the people who read my posts here and think that i'm saying those things for personal reasons they r wrong because i'm engaged already and thx God i have a religious and in the same time open minded family and I do what i want and what i see correct and i'm just discussing the situation in Egypt and how i c things around me and all the unfair things that r happening to women here. I first posted one question u can c it on the first page of the posts i only asked why men get jealous when an Egyptian woman is talking to a Western men then i got many non logic not intelligent answers from people which did lead to many things we r discussing now and i don't like the unfair things that r happening to many girls in the east but I'm talking only about Egypt cos this is where i live and where i can see and know everything about it's situation very well
That's fantastic. Now that question is, do you now see the lack of logic in your argument? Do you now see that what you were asking for is contradictory to your own belief?
-You are religious but you wanted to go out with men, kiss them, dance with them...etc.
-You criticized men for their behavior only because they did not approve of women behaving the same way.
-You preferred western men for all the wrong reasons. Being that they approved of you behaving contrary to your own beliefs. A hypocrite.
if u say to pinkmoon that she doesnt have to talk about religion and go dancing with men and so on... why then you talk about religion and you go out with western girls for their bodies and insult them and say about them slut, u should not talk about religion or pray.....
Posts: 23 | From: alexandria | Registered: Aug 2009
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A question: Why when a wife betrays her husband he wants to kill her or he divorces her and when the man betrays his wife why he asks her for forgiveness? Why if she asks him if i did the same u won't forgive me he answers proudly : " I AM A MAN" Anyway it's not the men's fault only but it's also women's fault who forgive the men.
Some reasons for why a woman forgive the man who betrays her: 1. The society which taught her that she has no rights and if the man betrays then it's a mistake and the most important thing that he will go back to her and because he is a man he has to be forgiven. 2. The ignorance and weakness and economy situation which made some women has no jobs and no income and if they have a job no enough income to survive alone or with their kids, so she has to accept her cheating on her or she will be in the streets. 3.Women who refuse the situation and go back to their families, their families will say: " he is a man no problem u have to go back to him we have no place for u and ur kids. 4.Some women refuse this situation and say i have to take him back from the woman who he is betraying me with so i'm the winner. For me this woman has no dignity because if she was in his place he wouldn't say i will fight and take her back so i win her back. 5. Women who will say NO and refuse his apologies and his asking for forgiveness and leave him as he would leave her if she did the same which I respect and this is the way it has to be
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Hey messenger wake up and pay attention to what u r saying I didn't say if I want or if i don't want i won't post my personal life here so don't write and say what i didn't say i explained a situation in general so be careful again!!
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: pink moon if there is a man in this world that cant accept me for me then screw him.i would never act like an angel for any man what u see is what u get. no lies no harm.
Yes I agree.
Posts: 114 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Haha, but try to think abit further. It's often used in politics: the loudest or biggest voice is what majority speaks. They don't have to be right, but it has to be loud, big and overwelming other voices. Just collect a group of people who talk alike, and the minority has no voice anymore. Imagine Hitler: He was wrong, but he had a loud voice. Because of that voice the people followed him and he even got democratically elected. Majority represented HIS opinion. After years it became clear that he was wrong...
Then your saying that nobody inhere is entitled to have an opinion unless they can back it up with a sientific source or statistics - wow it would be quite inhere very quickly. I cant see the point in having a forum then unless its a medical forum where doctors disguss.
Sorry questionmark but i think your in deep here. Ahmed (the islamic terrorist) himself says it is tradion that they kill their offspring incase of pregnancies. Do y need any statics so we are allowed to disguss it???
I'm in an audit, so can't make it long. Sure you can have an opinion, but you have to realise that it is just an opinion and not necesarrely the one and only truth. Or the whole truth. That's my biggest objection, the majority of opinion are about a part of a society, and is not representing the whole society. CU tomorrow...
Goodmorning. Well, when I overlook the subject and the reactions; when I have to make an outline 'freedom' is the main point. As long as every individual has the freedom to make a choice, at the same time it is taken away from the black, negative forbidden/haram/not-allowed/sin box. Earlier you made the comparison with also not having a free choice in stealing and killing -which is a bad comparison- but in fact the backlaying thought is important. As soon as somebody has to act with fear as a backlaying thought ( because he/she is doing something what is forbidden/not allowed etc) it has a negative effect on the people. It works negatively on their feelings of wellbeing, the conscience. Then you can ask yourself what can be wrong with a decision made by two people,concerning the lifes of only that two people, and their feelings of wellbeing. Above that, the 'not-alloweds/harams/sins/bad-bad-bads'are even going further; a n y private contact between the two is forbidden. They are not supposed to discuss anything private, because there always have to be people around. How can this work positively on a society? What does a large collection of haram benefit to a society? It only brings in fear, and it takes away peoples selfresponsibility and selfrespect. They are considered not to be able to take their own decisions about their own private lifes.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The point about a muslima not marrying a non muslim is that her kids will be non muslims according to their father's religion, hence a drop in the muslim population, whilst in case of the muslim man marrying a non muslima (JEW or CHRISTIAN) the kids automatically become muslims like their dad and muslim population is preserved.
Capiche ??
Dzosser that 'logic' is invented by men and nowhere in Quran.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The point about a muslima not marrying a non muslim is that her kids will be non muslims according to their father's religion, hence a drop in the muslim population, whilst in case of the muslim man marrying a non muslima (JEW or CHRISTIAN) the kids automatically become muslims like their dad and muslim population is preserved.
Capiche ??
Dzosser that 'logic' is invented by men and nowhere in Quran.
Ayisha - did i ever tell y that i love you???? Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Ehm, Religion is passed through the mother, that is if a Muslim man marries a Jew woman.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: Hey messenger wake up and pay attention to what u r saying I didn't say if I want or if i don't want i won't post my personal life here so don't write and say what i didn't say i explained a situation in general so be careful again!!
Now that was disappointing and evasive. I was hoping for something more "logical"
It does not matter if you were talking about yourself or in general. Here is a reminder of the argument you've been making all along:
I asked:
quote:Originally posted by messenger: OK, let's get right down to it. Be specific and tell me what is "open minded" and "closed minded" to you. What exactly is it that you can do with western men that you can not do with Egyptian men? Be very specific so that I understand your argument.
And you replied:
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: Ok, i will explain again, open minded means, intelligent, clever, free, not afraid of anyone, fears only God, and not the people,
So far so good
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: and i c the egyptian girls have to lie to egyptian men they have to say u r my first love and they never met a man before so he doesn't think bad of her. The egyptian girl has to act that she is innocent and has no experience in life and shows him how weak she is and makes him feel how strong he is , when she meets him she has to say it's the first time i go out alone with a man, it's the first time i lie to my family and say that i am going to meet a friend -of course a girl- even if her families knows she has to say that her family doesn't know so he doesn't think bad of her family, she can't start telling him i love u or i miss u or i want u, she can't tell him how handsome he is and how much she likes him, if she says she travels alone or go to trips with her friends without her family the egyptian man might think that this girl is bad and how come her family let her travel alone she is a bad woman, and if she does all the things i mentioned he will surely run away from her or try to have fun with her thinking that she is an easy, and impolite and she is up for anything so he tries to convince her that he loves her and he wants her and maybe a girl who does all these things will say no to him and maybe another girl will fall in love with him then he will have fun with her with very bad thoughts about her and how bad she is and then he will go find another girl to marry and leave her. These are some examples not everything but about 90% of egyptian men think this way and many egyptian women has to use these ways i mentioned above to show how good she is by lies.
That's all reasonable.
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: With the western man the woman can start saying she likes him or start talking to him -he will never think bad of her-If they get along together, she can tell him everything she wants or like everything she does-he will never think bad of her-she can say that she was in love before and if she said that the one she loved kissed her-he will never think bad of her because he knows that these r normal feelings doesn't mean she is a bad woman-if she talks to him about her friends and she travels or go dancing with them- he will never think bad of her- if she tells him i want u-he will never think bad of her, if she tells him that her family knows she meets him- he will never think bad of her or her family. So open minded means understanding respecting eachothers feelings, and being free doesn't mean being bad, if a woman is free go out, travel, have friends, do important things in her life have a good job and also have her fun life that doesn't mean that she is not respectable and she can't be a good wife, lover, and mother also doesn't mean that she is not religious open minded can be religious in the same time.
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: Maybe u will say how i mentioned dancing and now i say religious because we all do mistakes in our lives no one is angel i know my religion very well i fear god but i make mistakes i'm not perfect, we r not perfect but this doesn't mean that if we do something wrong that we do everything wrong a good person has limits a good person is a man or a woman we r humans , man+woman = human
Now here you clearly stated that at least one of the advantages of being with a western man, is that an Egyptian woman can go against her religious beliefs and do things like kiss and dance. Remember, these are not necessarily my beliefs, these are "yours". It doesn't matter if you were talking about you personally or the general "i" and "we". This is not a competition of who's better. You outlined your opinion on why you a western man is preferable to an Egyptian one.
I am arguing that it is illogical and hypocritical to prefer a western man partly to be able to behave contrary to one's beliefs. And that "your" excuse for misbehaving is EXACTLY that of the Egyptian men you criticize.
posted
Is it againest Islam to dance? I realise that kissing is a no no but dancing? All of my husbands family members dance except maybe my MIL. So is Haram to dance?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: Well pinkmoon, all I can say is look for different people. Of course you dont want a guy who has been having sex and then judges you, but they cant ALL be like this in Egypt, as men and women are never all the same.
If you really think that all Egyptian men are hypocrites then look elsewhere, marry a different nationality, it doesn't look like anyone is going to change your mind about Egyptian men here.
I want to say something for the people who read my posts here and think that i'm saying those things for personal reasons they r wrong because i'm engaged already and thx God i have a religious and in the same time open minded family and I do what i want and what i see correct and i'm just discussing the situation in Egypt and how i c things around me and all the unfair things that r happening to women here. I first posted one question u can c it on the first page of the posts i only asked why men get jealous when an Egyptian woman is talking to a Western men then i got many non logic not intelligent answers from people which did lead to many things we r discussing now and i don't like the unfair things that r happening to many girls in the east but I'm talking only about Egypt cos this is where i live and where i can see and know everything about it's situation very well
That's fantastic. Now that question is, do you now see the lack of logic in your argument? Do you now see that what you were asking for is contradictory to your own belief?
-You are religious but you wanted to go out with men, kiss them, dance with them...etc.
-You criticized men for their behavior only because they did not approve of women behaving the same way.
-You preferred western men for all the wrong reasons. Being that they approved of you behaving contrary to your own beliefs. A hypocrite.
if u say to pinkmoon that she doesnt have to talk about religion and go dancing with men and so on... why then you talk about religion and you go out with western girls for their bodies and insult them and say about them slut, u should not talk about religion or pray.....
Exactly, we both are hypocrites.
Now what do you think of western women who have casual sex with men? How do you describe a woman who likes to test before she buys, that is to test drive men?
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: Hey messenger wake up and pay attention to what u r saying I didn't say if I want or if i don't want i won't post my personal life here so don't write and say what i didn't say i explained a situation in general so be careful again!!
Now that was disappointing and evasive. I was hoping for something more "logical"
It does not matter if you were talking about yourself or in general. Here is a reminder of the argument you've been making all along:
I asked:
quote:Originally posted by messenger: OK, let's get right down to it. Be specific and tell me what is "open minded" and "closed minded" to you. What exactly is it that you can do with western men that you can not do with Egyptian men? Be very specific so that I understand your argument.
And you replied:
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: Ok, i will explain again, open minded means, intelligent, clever, free, not afraid of anyone, fears only God, and not the people,
So far so good
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: and i c the egyptian girls have to lie to egyptian men they have to say u r my first love and they never met a man before so he doesn't think bad of her. The egyptian girl has to act that she is innocent and has no experience in life and shows him how weak she is and makes him feel how strong he is , when she meets him she has to say it's the first time i go out alone with a man, it's the first time i lie to my family and say that i am going to meet a friend -of course a girl- even if her families knows she has to say that her family doesn't know so he doesn't think bad of her family, she can't start telling him i love u or i miss u or i want u, she can't tell him how handsome he is and how much she likes him, if she says she travels alone or go to trips with her friends without her family the egyptian man might think that this girl is bad and how come her family let her travel alone she is a bad woman, and if she does all the things i mentioned he will surely run away from her or try to have fun with her thinking that she is an easy, and impolite and she is up for anything so he tries to convince her that he loves her and he wants her and maybe a girl who does all these things will say no to him and maybe another girl will fall in love with him then he will have fun with her with very bad thoughts about her and how bad she is and then he will go find another girl to marry and leave her. These are some examples not everything but about 90% of egyptian men think this way and many egyptian women has to use these ways i mentioned above to show how good she is by lies.
That's all reasonable.
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: With the western man the woman can start saying she likes him or start talking to him -he will never think bad of her-If they get along together, she can tell him everything she wants or like everything she does-he will never think bad of her-she can say that she was in love before and if she said that the one she loved kissed her-he will never think bad of her because he knows that these r normal feelings doesn't mean she is a bad woman-if she talks to him about her friends and she travels or go dancing with them- he will never think bad of her- if she tells him i want u-he will never think bad of her, if she tells him that her family knows she meets him- he will never think bad of her or her family. So open minded means understanding respecting eachothers feelings, and being free doesn't mean being bad, if a woman is free go out, travel, have friends, do important things in her life have a good job and also have her fun life that doesn't mean that she is not respectable and she can't be a good wife, lover, and mother also doesn't mean that she is not religious open minded can be religious in the same time.
quote:Originally posted by pinkmoon: Maybe u will say how i mentioned dancing and now i say religious because we all do mistakes in our lives no one is angel i know my religion very well i fear god but i make mistakes i'm not perfect, we r not perfect but this doesn't mean that if we do something wrong that we do everything wrong a good person has limits a good person is a man or a woman we r humans , man+woman = human
Now here you clearly stated that at least one of the advantages of being with a western man, is that an Egyptian woman can go against her religious beliefs and do things like kiss and dance. Remember, these are not necessarily my beliefs, these are "yours". It doesn't matter if you were talking about you personally or the general "i" and "we". This is not a competition of who's better. You outlined your opinion on why you a western man is preferable to an Egyptian one.
I am arguing that it is illogical and hypocritical to prefer a western man partly to be able to behave contrary to one's beliefs. And that "your" excuse for misbehaving is EXACTLY that of the Egyptian men you criticism.
Get it?
I think pink moon is right and that your just not clever enought to understand her post and she is and independent strong openminded woman and that scared your sh!tty littled egyptian arse because women should be veiled and held down by traditions, male "logic" and religion.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: I think pink moon is right and that your just not clever enought to understand her post and she is and independent strong openminded woman and that scared your sh!tty littled egyptian arse because women should be veiled and held down by traditions, male "logic" and religion.
You know something, every-time I see your posts I miss MK. She was spot on about you.
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Is it againest Islam to dance? I realise that kissing is a no no but dancing? All of my husbands family members dance except maybe my MIL. So is Haram to dance?
I always loved to watch Egyptian guys dancing. They are so excited when they move and swinging their hips; It's inviting and really refreshing to see - unlike the German men.
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Is it againest Islam to dance? I realise that kissing is a no no but dancing? All of my husbands family members dance except maybe my MIL. So is Haram to dance?
That's an excellent question. And beleive me that question was coming, in time. But since you brought it up, may be pinkmoon can explain her statement:
"Maybe u will say how i mentioned dancing and now i say religious because we all do mistakes in our lives no one is angel i know my religion very well i fear god but i make mistakes i'm not perfect, we r not perfect "
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posted
Messenger quoted: Now what do you think of western women who have casual sex with men? How do you describe a woman who likes to test before she buys, that is to test drive men?
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Why do you even have to think about these women? It is not up to you to judge Again isn't is a part of Islam not to speak bad of people. My husband is not concerned one iota what other western women do and i am 100% sure he doesn't give a thought about them. The same as any other person doing things that HE may consider Haram, it is up to god to judge, not us.
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Messenger quoted: Now what do you think of western women who have casual sex with men? How do you describe a woman who likes to test before she buys, that is to test drive men?
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Why do you even have to think about these women? It is not up to you to judge Again isn't is a part of Islam not to speak bad of people. My husband is not concerned one iota what other western women do and i am 100% sure he doesn't give a thought about them. The same as any other person doing things that HE may consider Haram, it is up to god to judge, not us.
Actually we all judge. We do this all the time, we judge people and judge situations. That is a completely different judgment than the commonly perceived judgment by God.
She objected to the term "slut" and I wanted to know how she would describe that kind of behavior.
But let's see how you describe men test driving women?
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posted
As far as i am concerned it is all about choice. If BOTH partners want to then why not, as long as no one is lying or deciving the other and it is an informed decesion then who am i to judge.
If you feel strongly about marrying a virgin and again i have no problem with that either but you do have to be strong in withholding your sexual activities also. On the otherhand if you have experiemented yourself you can not and should not judge others who may have done the same thing - in my opinion. Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
The question about having an opinion about Western women who are having casual sex,makes me think at having an opinion about men who prefer to hear a lie instead as the truth, and women who are claiming to be untouched while it's a lie too. And it is o-so-easy to judge by stating that we prefer honesty and admit our sexual behaviours even when it's forbidden by religion, because o u r s o c i e t y a c c e p t s thre truth. It p r e f e r s the truth, while Egyptian society prefers the lie. Any Egyptian woman would be burned when she should tell the truth. Above that behaviour, she needs to have dozens of other qualifications...while he doesn't....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: I think pink moon is right and that your just not clever enought to understand her post and she is and independent strong openminded woman and that scared your sh!tty littled egyptian arse because women should be veiled and held down by traditions, male "logic" and religion.
You know something, every-time I see your posts I miss MK. She was spot on about you.
I miss George Bush. He was spot on when he talked about your kind... Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Originally posted by Sub-zero: Ehm, Religion is passed through the mother, that is if a Muslim man marries a Jew woman.
Yeah that's if she marries a 'JEW'.. but not a muslim, or else what's the point of allowing it in Qur'an ? Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
as i have said before as long as the test driving is between two single consenting adults (whatever their religion)....using protection....i dont see a problem.....the only problem i see is that it is okay for egyptian man..to sleep with western woman....then go to his egyptian bride not a virgin.....but the egyptian bride must be a virgin.....and such a good girl almost angel like.....and dont forget she must be able to cook....but then i forget the egyptian is not perfect.....he is only human....but the egyptian woman must be perfect!!!....does the egyptian man really think he can behave western at times....then pray to allah for his sins to be forgiven....because to me that is hypocrital....as it is like.....yes i will do that but then i will pray and i will be forgiven...
Posts: 312 | From: my world | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
Quote: She objected to the term "slut" and I wanted to know how she would describe that kind of behavior.
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But that's all relative, messenger. One person may consider her a slut because she has had one partner. Another person may feel over ten sexual partners, then she is a slut. To others it wouldn't matter how many partners she has had they would never use the word slut to describe them. In Egypt you may consider her a slut because she has kissed someone.
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quote:Originally posted by mylife: as i have said before as long as the test driving is between two single consenting adults (whatever their religion)....using protection....i dont see a problem.....the only problem i see is that it is okay for egyptian man..to sleep with western woman....then go to his egyptian bride not a virgin.....but the egyptian bride must be a virgin.....and such a good girl almost angel like.....and dont forget she must be able to cook....but then i forget the egyptian is not perfect.....he is only human....but the egyptian woman must be perfect!!!....does the egyptian man really think he can behave western at times....then pray to allah for his sins to be forgiven....because to me that is hypocrital....as it is like.....yes i will do that but then i will pray and i will be forgiven...
You nailed it completely. I saw stuff like this happen many times during my stay in Egypt.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: As far as i am concerned it is all about choice. If BOTH partners want to then why not, as long as no one is lying or deciving the other and it is an informed decesion then who am i to judge.
If you feel strongly about marrying a virgin and again i have no problem with that either but you do have to be strong in withholding your sexual activities also. On the otherhand if you have experiemented yourself you can not and should not judge others who may have done the same thing - in my opinion.
That's great, now how does the process of test driving go. When does a woman decide that her relationship with a man will depend on his performance?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pinkmoon: Ahmad u r making me laugh Ayisha is right u contradicted ur self first u said men r allowed to marry christians and jews then u said that christians r considered Atheists, but christians r not atheists anyway QUOTE]
I do not know who you think yourself when you say I do not wear hijab but still advise people about religion 2:44 "Enjoin you Al-Bir (piety and righteousness and each and every act of obedience to Allah) on the People and you forget (to practise it) yourselves"
"أتأمون الناس بالبر و تنسون أنفسكم؟"
I did not contradict myself,it is you who insist to get away and do not discuss the true meaning of the oword of Ahl Alketab and the Mushrekeen ,i do not know how could somebody whoever is he tell us HE HAS DONE REASEARCh and he does not even know the Sahih Hadith about the subject noe he knows the Quran by heart nor he knows that the companions were married to christians and jews and the prophet himself were married to maria Al-Qebtia which is coptic?!
How you dare to explain Quran as you like?
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: As far as i am concerned it is all about choice. If BOTH partners want to then why not, as long as no one is lying or deciving the other and it is an informed decesion then who am i to judge.
If you feel strongly about marrying a virgin and again i have no problem with that either but you do have to be strong in withholding your sexual activities also. On the otherhand if you have experiemented yourself you can not and should not judge others who may have done the same thing - in my opinion.
That's great, now how does the process of test driving go. When does a woman decide that her relationship with a man will depend on his performance?
It doesnt but its part of the package but we could try to explain that too y everyday for the next 100 years and y still wouldnt understand. Why dont y grab on to the subject of the young egyptian mens sexual habbits which is way more alarming. But i guess y think its okay for them to fck anything with a pulse and still have a clean sheet. Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: As far as i am concerned it is all about choice. If BOTH partners want to then why not, as long as no one is lying or deciving the other and it is an informed decesion then who am i to judge.
If you feel strongly about marrying a virgin and again i have no problem with that either but you do have to be strong in withholding your sexual activities also. On the otherhand if you have experiemented yourself you can not and should not judge others who may have done the same thing - in my opinion.
That's great, now how does the process of test driving go. When does a woman decide that her relationship with a man will depend on his performance?
a relationship is not all about sex....if the man underperfoms...then the fun starts of learning and teaching other...that happens in western relationships....it is not all wham bam thank you mam....like egyptian men think....
Posts: 312 | From: my world | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Jesus IS the son of Mary, ALLAH said he is the son of Mary you idiot. An atheist does not believe in God, Christians DO. Christians are not atheists! READ QURAN!!
as usual Ayisha with her tongue and who do not read anything,you must understand whi Omar Ibn Al-khettab said and the companions said about that issue and then talk back again, i decided that I will not reply to your insults nor anybody her with these opinions in their mind,exactly as I GAVE you the verses about E3tab and you did not study them !!
My God guide you
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: As far as i am concerned it is all about choice. If BOTH partners want to then why not, as long as no one is lying or deciving the other and it is an informed decesion then who am i to judge.
If you feel strongly about marrying a virgin and again i have no problem with that either but you do have to be strong in withholding your sexual activities also. On the otherhand if you have experiemented yourself you can not and should not judge others who may have done the same thing - in my opinion.
That's great, now how does the process of test driving go. When does a woman decide that her relationship with a man will depend on his performance?
a relationship is not all about sex....if the man underperfoms...then the fun starts of learning and teaching other...that happens in western relationships....it is not all wham bam thank you mam....like egyptian men think....
Exactly. Sex is just a small but still exciting part of it. The fun is getting to know each other, the flirt, the romancing and then as a bonus and natural part -for the rest of the world - the sexpart.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by mylife: a relationship is not all about sex
I disagree. Actually for many people these days it is, unfortunately, they are only together because of this one thing. Well you can imagine relationships like that are doomed sooner or later anyway.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: As far as i am concerned it is all about choice. If BOTH partners want to then why not, as long as no one is lying or deciving the other and it is an informed decesion then who am i to judge.
If you feel strongly about marrying a virgin and again i have no problem with that either but you do have to be strong in withholding your sexual activities also. On the otherhand if you have experiemented yourself you can not and should not judge others who may have done the same thing - in my opinion.
That's great, now how does the process of test driving go. When does a woman decide that her relationship with a man will depend on his performance?
a relationship is not all about sex....if the man underperfoms...then the fun starts of learning and teaching other...that happens in western relationships....it is not all wham bam thank you mam....like egyptian men think....
OK, may be it is the English language I'm having difficulty with. What does "test-drive" mean?
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The point about a muslima not marrying a non muslim is that her kids will be non muslims according to their father's religion, hence a drop in the muslim population, whilst in case of the muslim man marrying a non muslima (JEW or CHRISTIAN) the kids automatically become muslims like their dad and muslim population is preserved.
Capiche ??
Dzosser that 'logic' is invented by men and nowhere in Quran.
I know, I never said it was in Qur'an its only my way of thinking
Anyway if you want the real facts, I can tell you that in Islam a woman must obey and follow her husband's advice and respect his ego now if this guy was the type that made fun of Muhammad pbuh and drew cartoons and insulted our prophet, which is the norm for the Jews and Christian population who see our prophet pbuh as a pedophile, womaniser, blood thirsty, charlatan and poet how the hell could a woman live with a dude who looks down upon her belief and prophet, she'd be treated like $hit by him..unless she's planning to deny her Islamic faith and act like she's all for the open minded crap to survive Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mylife: a relationship is not all about sex
I disagree. Actually for many people these days it is, unfortunately, they are only together because of this one thing. Well you can imagine relationships like that are doomed sooner or later anyway.
Never experienced a relationsship like that myself or have seen my girlfriends practicing that. But actually that doesnt matter because thats none of anybody else's business. If both are adult and have casual great sex,- then i realy cant see the problem. As long as they dont bother me with it. IMO people can have sex with a cucumber i really really dont care and dont understand why what other people do is so interesting and can cause social labelling.... We luckily dont have that in Demark.
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Well, when I overlook the subject and the reactions; when I have to make an outline 'freedom' is the main point. As long as every individual has the freedom to make a choice, at the same time it is taken away from the black, negative forbidden/haram/not-allowed/sin box. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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but not a muslim, or else what's the point of allowing it in Qur'an ? 
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