posted
If, muslim wwomen, (in Egypt and other muslim cultures/countries) were allowed to get to know members of the opposite sex better before marriage (and I dont necessarily mean sex, but getting to know each other ) - would they prefer this?
Posts: 712 | Registered: Apr 2008
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WK - You also keep saying how much of a hard time I gave you when you first joined. I knew I didnt agree with what you were going to do, so I decided to check your first thread.
I was posting then under the name 'mrs' which later became 'superwoman'. I read my posts to you, none of them were nasty.
Please can you show me where I was nasty when you first came, so I can look at it in context.
AND, I am not denying that I am judgemental at times, I am, as we all are. BUT what I take issue with is when people come at me all 'holier than thou' calling ME judgemental when they are just the same, if not worse.
Posts: 431 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote: I think if you ask any moslem what is THE most important thing in their life, and I am talking about 'true' moslems, they will always say Allah first. There is no doubt about that.
Now why would any 'true' moslem marry a woman who denies Allah's very existence? The very thing that is the uppermost thing in his life?.
The bottom line is he cannot marry you and still be a moslem, and you have to ask yourself why would he when it against the very teaching of his faith.
It's simply not allowed in Islam.
It is one of those things that some people don’t understand, but doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’ve met a few married couples out there, where the woman were “non practising Christians”.. and they have told me religion doesn’t come into it. Something’s just work for some people, and not for others. There are many things not allowed in Islam, that Muslims do. People will always follow their religion how they see fit, even when they know they are doing wrong. If I didn’t show Islam respect, obviously Sam wouldn’t be with me. However, we are able to have light-hearted debates, without it becoming insults. He knows I accept Allah is the most important thing to him, and as long as I have agreed that our children will know the teachings of Islam, he is happy. Does every muslim pray five times a day? No. Does Every Muslim marry a woman of the book… nope
Back on to the actual subject... Everyone has their own opinions about things- no one can help that. But Modesty was just down right insulting everyone who lives differently to her, that is what I (and many others) had issues with. Don’t agree with orfis, then don’t, even tell me so… don’t agree with orfis and insult those who have one, I draw the line. Don’t like women sleeping around, fine… don’t like women sleeping around and then insulting them… once again, too far. Don’t like devoutly religious people, ok… don’t like devoutly religious people and call them names… I think you get my point. I always try to be more accepting of others... and YES I am aware I'm not perfect at that, but I then don't try to defend when I have been narrow minded- and I'm always open to people "enlighting" me to why such and such is ok. That is why I like debating. I'm facinated by other people's views. Sometimes I don't agree, but sometimes I learn something (a reason why I'm no longer a militant atheist, I listened and learnt). We should all make it a goal in life to be more understanding to others... just think how peaceful the world would be.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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6 Pages of arguing and end with : We all should make it a goal in life to be more understanding to others!!!!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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My best muslim friend here tells me his son is the most important thing in his life... what a bad man!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Pillar: All muslims believe in the Bible AND Jesus.
But that was not my point, my point was that Christianity has changed.
You are another one who just wants to argue for the sake of it.
Please answer these questions:
Did Henry VIII create the Church of England? Were Homosexual couples allowed to marry at the time of Jesus? Is there proof that Jesus was born on Christmas day? Was Easter a pagan Festival before Christianity adopted it as a religious festival? Did the old testament say not to Eat pork? Do Christians Eat Pork today? Do Christians believe in the Old testament?
Don't know who created the Church of England. It doesn't matter.
Homosexuality is a sin. I don't know if they were allowed to marry in Jesus time...I doubt it. It also does not matter if they did or didn't.
I don't think that Jesus was born on Christmas but that is when we celebrate it... again, it does not matter if you celebrate it or if you don't celebrate it.
I don't know if Easter was a pagan festival, could of been, but I doubt they celebrated the risen Christ.
Yes, the Old Testament (which is the Jewish Torah) says do not eat pork along with a whole bunch of other detailed laws.
Some Christians eat pork, some may not eat pork or meat at all...it does not matter.
Yes, Christians believe the Old Testament. The Old Testament prophecy teaches of the coming Messiah. Christians believe this Messiah to be Jesus. I think that Muslims also believe the Messiah to be Jesus...The Jews do not.
What you don't understand is that Christians believe Jesus is the fulfilling of the law. That we are judged by grace and not by the works of the law. That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That under the law we are all guilty of sin. We cannot enter heaven if we have sinned. Jesus brought salvation to the world. He taught grace.
You DO NOT believe in the Bible if you believe that your good works will get you into heaven.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote: WK - You also keep saying how much of a hard time I gave you when you first joined. I knew I didnt agree with what you were going to do, so I decided to check your first thread.
What I was going to do?? I am talking about my first thread, that was not about orfis (that was Sherri’s thread). But, I don’t mind having a look through my original post to find some quotes…
quote: weirdkitty, we are all too long in the tooth for you to pull the wool over OUR eyes missy, Your post read something like this...
Then you went on to “quote” my original post, but changing my words to fit what you thought I was saying… unbelievably patronising.
quote: love? love? who said that, I never said that, how silly, why would you think i'm in love? YOU said that, not me, I never said I love, I didn't, I was just saying, well, stuff, not love! ya'll must be crazy...love smuv...
(then follows three rolling eyes). Sarcasm.
quote: Well there you go Weird kitty, if it doesn't work out with Mr Egypt who you only want to be friends with anyway so dont understand why we even gave you that advice...
Oh dear, giving me advice, isn’t that what you are so worked up about me doing for the 17 year old? Oh, and more sarcasm, and putting words into my mouth (you have being doing that for a while it seems).
That was the first two pages, then you dropped out the convo, and by page 4, we were talking about something else. I admit, the slapper and troll thing was in the orfi thread. And yet you moan about me telling a 17 year old to get to know the man and culture before marriage...
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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Just remind me what the subject of the topic originally posted in December 2006 was about Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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Muslims generally believe that the Bible was corrupted and is therefore no longer a reliable version of the 'word of God'.
However, when the passages of the Qur’an are examined in detail, the conclusion turns out to be quite different. Evidence from Muslim sources to show that the Quran does in fact confirm that the Holy Bible is the inspired, 'preserved Word of God'. For a detailed discussion of this topic, see the various articles listed in the section What the Qur'an and Early Muslim Commentators Say About the Bible.
Muslims realize the problem this poses for their beliefs. To accept the Holy Bible is to reject the Quran as a fraudulent book, and yet to reject the Holy Bible is to reject the Quran’s positive testimony to the authority and preservation of the Holy Bible.
Realizing this dilemma, Muslims have attempted to deny that the Quran teaches that the Holy Bible is the preserved Word of God.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Well, I am off. Don't forget the Understanding-part....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: WK - You also keep saying how much of a hard time I gave you when you first joined. I knew I didnt agree with what you were going to do, so I decided to check your first thread.
What I was going to do?? I am talking about my first thread, that was not about orfis (that was Sherri’s thread). But, I don’t mind having a look through my original post to find some quotes…
quote: weirdkitty, we are all too long in the tooth for you to pull the wool over OUR eyes missy, Your post read something like this...
Then you went on to “quote” my original post, but changing my words to fit what you thought I was saying… unbelievably patronising.
quote: love? love? who said that, I never said that, how silly, why would you think i'm in love? YOU said that, not me, I never said I love, I didn't, I was just saying, well, stuff, not love! ya'll must be crazy...love smuv...
(then follows three rolling eyes). Sarcasm.
quote: Well there you go Weird kitty, if it doesn't work out with Mr Egypt who you only want to be friends with anyway so dont understand why we even gave you that advice...
Oh dear, giving me advice, isn’t that what you are so worked up about me doing for the 17 year old? Oh, and more sarcasm, and putting words into my mouth (you have being doing that for a while it seems).
That was the first two pages, then you dropped out the convo, and by page 4, we were talking about something else. I admit, the slapper and troll thing was in the orfi thread. And yet you moan about me telling a 17 year old to get to know the man and culture before marriage...
yeah it was in jest most of it, not vicious as you make out. Maybe you should quote some of my other posts on that thread too, for a balanced argument.
I also support what Habeeby and the others say. Long distance relationships are not something i would chose to do because it must be so hard on those involved. I would try to stay as just friends if i were you, unless one of you has plans to move to the other country.
Its probably very romantic and he may well be a lovely person, but you have to be realistic about things, your miles apart in culture and distance. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Context – Vader posted:
Anyways, weirdkitty posted her pictures and she's a hottie, usually it's the fugly ones with these kind of problems. I think she can safely lower her defenses due to the fact that she's pretty sexy! ________________________________________ Posts: 5328 | From: You pretend it doesn't bother you... | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |
Superwoman
Member Member # 14656
Rate Member posted 09 June, 2008 08:02 AM ________________________________________ Well there you go Weird kitty, if it doesn't work out with Mr Egypt who you only want to be friends with anyway so dont understand why we even gave you that advice...then you can always go out with Vader ________________________________________
quote:Originally posted by Pillar: And the reason I felt that way about you was exactly the same as it is today. Because you were going to Egypt, to marry an ORFI marriage to stay together in an apartment so you could 'get to know him better'. You even said that you could not marry someone you had not had sex with.
What I actually said is 'dont take your values and apply them on muslim society'
In other words, dont go and get an orfi so you can have this man stay with you as boyfriend and girlfriend, because that is not allowed in Islam.
I am a muslim, I stand by what I said, and your arguments since have proved that you do not consider it a marriage. Otherwise you would not be saying 'its just something Egyptian people do' to your friends, and then come here arguing how its a socially accepted marriage.
It is not accepted IN ISLAM, your 'husband' Is a muslim.
You USED it. THAT is what I am against. Women going and doing this and then making out to the world its 'what Egyptians do'
I know many other people with ORFI's, do you know why they dont bother me? Because they accept how things are. They do not shout from the rooftops how their way of doing things is the right way and how the Islamic way is wrong. They also dont tell me to keep my Islamic opinion to myself - but of course we never get to that because they DO NOT have a SUPERIORITY COMPLEX!
Which brings me right back to where we started.
Pillar I honestly do not think WK is saying her way is best and the Islamic way is wrong. She is simply saying what is right for her personally and is accepting that may not be right for others.
It sounds as though this ORFI that started as boyfriend/ girlfriend has grown into something much deeper and that should be respected. Many of us were right to warn her in the beginning of the pitfalls but you have to commend that she has gone and done the time and built something that could last and is right for her and her partner.
I dont wish to get into an argument about whether ORFI is Islamically acceptable or not but there are many that will say it is, providing the right conditions are met.
I have said it before and I will say it again most Egyptian's are not that bothered how you are married if they see a proper marriage and these two are moving towards this. Egypt is not some sort of perfect Islamic society, far from it, it is full of hypocracy...and to be honest a few OFRI contracts are the least of its problems.
I really don't see why you find it necessary to be so hard on WK.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: I think if you ask any moslem what is THE most important thing in their life, and I am talking about 'true' moslems, they will always say Allah first. There is no doubt about that.
Now why would any 'true' moslem marry a woman who denies Allah's very existence? The very thing that is the uppermost thing in his life?.
The bottom line is he cannot marry you and still be a moslem, and you have to ask yourself why would he when it against the very teaching of his faith.
It's simply not allowed in Islam.
It is one of those things that some people don’t understand, but doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’ve met a few married couples out there, where the woman were “non practising Christians”.. and they have told me religion doesn’t come into it. Something’s just work for some people, and not for others. There are many things not allowed in Islam, that Muslims do. People will always follow their religion how they see fit, even when they know they are doing wrong. If I didn’t show Islam respect, obviously Sam wouldn’t be with me. However, we are able to have light-hearted debates, without it becoming insults. He knows I accept Allah is the most important thing to him, and as long as I have agreed that our children will know the teachings of Islam, he is happy. Does every muslim pray five times a day? No. Does Every Muslim marry a woman of the book… nope
You talked to non practising christians exactly. Being a non practicing christian is a far cry from professing to be an atheist. Muslim men will not marry an atheist WK -being a non practicing christian is a technicality so still according to Islamic law they can still marry. Your looking at it and applying our western cultural norms wk, you seriously need to look at it applying both egyptian cultural and Islamic religous norms. That's what expat and a few others are trying to tell you, especially the muslimahs and muslim males.
I think that you and pillar have just rubbed the wrong way- I think your a young idealistic woman who is stubborn and hold fast in her beliefs- I've told you that before and it's not neccesarily a bad quality either. What you believe today WK will change 10 yrs from now when you have had more life experiences-trust me.
I think people are just trying to tell you that you really need to see things from an Islamic perspective as you are marrying a muslim male. It might be he might be less religious and more western than others in his culture but,just like with my husband, it always comes back to Allah and the fact that Islam will always be their way of life so you have to be prepared for those facts and not so flippant about them for your own sake...
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Pillar: And the reason I felt that way about you was exactly the same as it is today. Because you were going to Egypt, to marry an ORFI marriage to stay together in an apartment so you could 'get to know him better'. You even said that you could not marry someone you had not had sex with.
What I actually said is 'dont take your values and apply them on muslim society'
In other words, dont go and get an orfi so you can have this man stay with you as boyfriend and girlfriend, because that is not allowed in Islam.
I am a muslim, I stand by what I said, and your arguments since have proved that you do not consider it a marriage. Otherwise you would not be saying 'its just something Egyptian people do' to your friends, and then come here arguing how its a socially accepted marriage.
It is not accepted IN ISLAM, your 'husband' Is a muslim.
You USED it. THAT is what I am against. Women going and doing this and then making out to the world its 'what Egyptians do'
I know many other people with ORFI's, do you know why they dont bother me? Because they accept how things are. They do not shout from the rooftops how their way of doing things is the right way and how the Islamic way is wrong. They also dont tell me to keep my Islamic opinion to myself - but of course we never get to that because they DO NOT have a SUPERIORITY COMPLEX!
Which brings me right back to where we started.
Pillar I honestly do not think WK is saying her way is best and the Islamic way is wrong. She is simply saying what is right for her personally and is accepting that may not be right for others.
It sounds as though this ORFI that started as boyfriend/ girlfriend has grown into something much deeper and that should be respected. Many of us were right tot warn her in the beginning of the pitfalls but you have to commend that she has gone and done the time and built something that could last and is right for her and her partner.
I dont wish to get into an argument about whether ORFI is Islamically acceptable or not but there are many that will say it is, providing the right conditions are met.
I have said it before and I will say it again most Egyptian's are not that bothered how you are married if they see a proper marriage and these two are moving towards this. Egypt is not some sort of perfect Islamic society, far from it, it is full of hypocracy...and to be honest a few OFRI contracts are the least of its problems.
I really don't see why you find it necessary to be so hard on WK.
I agree Penny... I don't know any Egyptians who are bothered about how or why people are married. My friend did not question, judge or condemn WK upon meeting her. He just cared about feeding us!
If I were to marry urfi I know my female Egyptian colleagues would celebrate with me. I know this as I love to discuss ES topics with Egyptian women to gain a real opinion and not one adopted from Wiki.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote: Provactive, hell yes... sarcastic... yimkin... disrespectful.. way less than some present.
Ah... it is good to have Mrs back
Bad Ferret, don’t go posting provocative statements again, some people don’t like to be challenged! And sarcastic, pot kettle black anyone? As for disrespectful, you said your friend thinks his son is the most important thing to him… not disrespectful, honourable. I find that a great quality in a person. I guess respect is the same as freedom… one person might think something freeing, another imprisoning. One person might think something respectful, another disrespectful. Who is right?
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Pillar: I DO BELIEVE in the Bible. Please refrain from telling me what I believe and what I think.
So your answer to many of the questions was 'it doesn't matter'
OK.
How is it possible to believe both?
Do you believe this?
Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Or this?
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
What about this?
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
...Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Pillar, have you read the NT of the Bible?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote: Well there you go Weird kitty, if it doesn't work out with Mr Egypt who you only want to be friends with anyway so dont understand why we even gave you that advice...then you can always go out with Vader
No, the point was your snide comment about me only wanting to be friends with Sam- because for some reason, you and smuckers took great delight when I said I wasn’t talking love. Putting the snide comment in a joke, doesn’t make it any less snide.
Thank you Penny. I know in my original posts you too gave advice, etc, and yet, unlike Pillar, you haven’t held my early relationship against my current one. That is why, I have absolutely no hard feelings towards you, and respect and warnings you gave me at the start.
quote: You talked to non practising christians exactly. Being a non practicing christian is a far cry from professing to be an atheist. Muslim men will not marry an atheist WK -being a non practicing christian is a technicality so still according to Islamic law they can still marry. Your looking at it and applying our western cultural norms wk, you seriously need to look at it applying both egyptian cultural and Islamic religous norms. That's what expat and a few others are trying to tell you, especially the muslimahs and muslim males.
I believe the passage about who a Muslim can marry doesn’t just say atheists, it specifically mentions no practising theists too, and puts them under the same label. The thing is, me and Sam would be married, if it wasn’t for me who decided against it, because I decided I wanted to have the “big day” I always dreamed. We now have a good idea when this big day will happen… but we also know that people wont like the whole atheist thing. However, turns out, in Islam a man cannot look into another mans heart, because only God can do that. If I proclaim myself Christian, no one is allowed to say I am not one (and it was one of those “non practising” Christian’s who told me that, and her Muslim husband agreed). People always tell me I should be thinking about it islamically… is it so hard to comprehend that maybe we think about things both islamically and atheistically- he knows I do not follow his religion, so knew he could either find a woman who did, or compromise… so far, he has picked the latter lol.
quote: What you believe today WK will change 10 yrs from now when you have had more life experiences-trust me.
I know it will, I have already said that some of my recent posts do indeed contradict with older ones. Anyway, year by year we all change by what life throws at us. When I am a mother, for example, I will probably start seeing many things totally differently than I do now. I really hope I will always think Crocs shoes are horrid though.
quote: My friend did not question, judge or condemn WK upon meeting her. He just cared about feeding us!
Your friend kept me hostage! Not like I should complain when some keeps me hostage to feed me excellent food though
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: oooo HURRIYA ...
I thought it was a beautiful thing for him to say.
I am sorry to all those who think a man should put his child second.
Its not about putting his child second.
Reading some of the comments here I asked my husband 'who is the most important person in your life'...without a moments hesitation his answer is me his wife...so I ask 'what about God' his answer again without thinking....that is something that is inside of me and my very being. His point is it's not a competition.
So I would say just thank god for men who understand where their religions fit in their lives and what is important in every day living.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Penny... I love your posts. You have again nailed all I wanted to say but I do not bother giving my views anymore for various and numerous reasons.
I was just being facetious... Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: well shes never hidden it, she just likes to wear a different dress sometimes thats all, not like the trolls with their umpteen id's and personalities to match.
Where is MoDeStY anway
I was busy working? Taking care of lost young adults and kids, I wonder where their mom's are, some women should never have kids I tell ya!!?
Did you miss me already?
Do you know making fun of burka or hijab or bread of the muslim man or anything within the islamic life slytle that is from Quran and sunnah makes you a kafer ?
Yes it makes you fall out of Islam.. You should read more about that, please don't take my word for it if you are muslim! Unless you are part time Muslim, sofi or khawarj or shia ya3ni words only without any action like salah, siyam, zikr, zakat, hajj ect ect..I'm not saying you are (Part time muslim) but if you would continue making fun of quran and sunnah it would make sense that you are Ahlul bed3a.. That is if you are a Muslim at all, I wouldn't know. Allahu ya3lm..
what on earth are you talking about?
Mocking the words and Book of Allaah, or trying to undermine their sanctity and respect, is blatant kufr – no one would dispute that. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’
Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed…”
[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]
quote: then there is the woman in a burka who IS the porn star
I was referring to your statement above, you can't talk like that about anything related to Islam, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) wives use to wear it and the sahabiyats! Making Fun of such things leads to disbelieve (Kufr)!
Use your words wisely next time as the above Ayah from The Quran will be testifying against you or for you..
Firstly try to quote what you're moaning about the first time instead of me having to ask.
Secondly I will speak as I like and no way was I insulting ANYTHING to do with Islam, Burka is NOT from Islam, argue as you like about that one.
Thirdly you spouted the entire first lot of tripe even though you dont KNOW whether I was muslim or not??
Forthly as you are into hadith read the one which says YOU are kafir for calling me one!
and lastly wearing a burka does not stop girls HERE in Egypt being prostitutes, actually many of them are burka clad, nor does it stop them having a quick change into something more revealing to dance at the disco and dont tell me it doesnt happen because i KNOW it does.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Want me to tell you about some girls who have distinguishing marks surgically removed from their bodies so when they are having sex with strangers they can never be identified if questioned?
Oh, I just told you
Naivity to me is as funny as an assumption
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote] WK, I apologise for my friends hospitality. [/quote]
Please do… I felt absolutely horrified to be fed such fine, free food… so much so that a week later I took Sam there and had nearly everything on the menu!
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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Honestly reading this thread I swear to God I am SO thankful I never met ANY self righteous, self absorbed, judgemental, hypocritical Muslims before I converted!
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Need to EMPHASIZE again that, Muslims believe in ORIGINAL Bible, not CURRENT Bible, original Torah, not CURRENT Torah and of course believe and respect CHRIST and MOSES.
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The thing is, we stll have the SAME Bible. It hasn't changed one iota. The Bible today is an original text based on the oldest manuscripts available, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is better than you can say for most of the works of Plato, someone that few people question the validity of.
To make your claim of tampering credible you will have to answer these questions:
- When happened this tampering? [Before or after Muhammad]? - Who did the tampering? - Where was it done? [city, country, ...?] - What parts of the text were changed? - How was it done [i.e. without leaving traces of it]? - Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?
No Muslim could ever answer these questions. I wonder why? Maybe because it is such an incredible feat that would require more than a miracle do get done? Believing in the tampering needs a lot of faith. Blind faith, against the manuscript evidence we have.Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ayisha, these people are the reason I am a 'spiritual agnostic' (apparently) I am a blank canvas who cannot decipher who speaks the truth. I believe in something but I know not what and these guys deter me from what they preach as it does not sound like a peaceful belief.
I have travelled the world and seen many people following several paths... some are poles apart yet all are adamant they are correct.
I guess I will remain a blank canvas until something divine happens.
Wow, the Ferret has a little depth Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: well shes never hidden it, she just likes to wear a different dress sometimes thats all, not like the trolls with their umpteen id's and personalities to match.
Where is MoDeStY anway
I was busy working? Taking care of lost young adults and kids, I wonder where their mom's are, some women should never have kids I tell ya!!?
Did you miss me already?
Do you know making fun of burka or hijab or bread of the muslim man or anything within the islamic life slytle that is from Quran and sunnah makes you a kafer ?
Yes it makes you fall out of Islam.. You should read more about that, please don't take my word for it if you are muslim! Unless you are part time Muslim, sofi or khawarj or shia ya3ni words only without any action like salah, siyam, zikr, zakat, hajj ect ect..I'm not saying you are (Part time muslim) but if you would continue making fun of quran and sunnah it would make sense that you are Ahlul bed3a.. That is if you are a Muslim at all, I wouldn't know. Allahu ya3lm..
what on earth are you talking about?
Mocking the words and Book of Allaah, or trying to undermine their sanctity and respect, is blatant kufr – no one would dispute that. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’
Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed…”
[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]
quote: then there is the woman in a burka who IS the porn star
I was referring to your statement above, you can't talk like that about anything related to Islam, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) wives use to wear it and the sahabiyats! Making Fun of such things leads to disbelieve (Kufr)!
Use your words wisely next time as the above Ayah from The Quran will be testifying against you or for you..
Firstly try to quote what you're moaning about the first time instead of me having to ask.
Secondly I will speak as I like and no way was I insulting ANYTHING to do with Islam, Burka is NOT from Islam, argue as you like about that one.
Thirdly you spouted the entire first lot of tripe even though you dont KNOW whether I was muslim or not??
Forthly as you are into hadith read the one which says YOU are kafir for calling me one!
and lastly wearing a burka does not stop girls HERE in Egypt being prostitutes, actually many of them are burka clad, nor does it stop them having a quick change into something more revealing to dance at the disco and dont tell me it doesnt happen because i KNOW it does.
Dose this mean you are a fan of www.submission.org Aka against hadeeth and only into Quran? !
Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: well shes never hidden it, she just likes to wear a different dress sometimes thats all, not like the trolls with their umpteen id's and personalities to match.
Where is MoDeStY anway
I was busy working? Taking care of lost young adults and kids, I wonder where their mom's are, some women should never have kids I tell ya!!?
Did you miss me already?
Do you know making fun of burka or hijab or bread of the muslim man or anything within the islamic life slytle that is from Quran and sunnah makes you a kafer ?
Yes it makes you fall out of Islam.. You should read more about that, please don't take my word for it if you are muslim! Unless you are part time Muslim, sofi or khawarj or shia ya3ni words only without any action like salah, siyam, zikr, zakat, hajj ect ect..I'm not saying you are (Part time muslim) but if you would continue making fun of quran and sunnah it would make sense that you are Ahlul bed3a.. That is if you are a Muslim at all, I wouldn't know. Allahu ya3lm..
what on earth are you talking about?
Mocking the words and Book of Allaah, or trying to undermine their sanctity and respect, is blatant kufr – no one would dispute that. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’
Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed…”
[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]
quote: then there is the woman in a burka who IS the porn star
I was referring to your statement above, you can't talk like that about anything related to Islam, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) wives use to wear it and the sahabiyats! Making Fun of such things leads to disbelieve (Kufr)!
Use your words wisely next time as the above Ayah from The Quran will be testifying against you or for you..
Firstly try to quote what you're moaning about the first time instead of me having to ask.
Secondly I will speak as I like and no way was I insulting ANYTHING to do with Islam, Burka is NOT from Islam, argue as you like about that one.
Thirdly you spouted the entire first lot of tripe even though you dont KNOW whether I was muslim or not??
Forthly as you are into hadith read the one which says YOU are kafir for calling me one!
and lastly wearing a burka does not stop girls HERE in Egypt being prostitutes, actually many of them are burka clad, nor does it stop them having a quick change into something more revealing to dance at the disco and dont tell me it doesnt happen because i KNOW it does.
Dose this mean you are a fan of www.submission.org Aka against hadeeth and only into Quran? !
No I dont mean anything like that, why would you assume I agree with a man who changes Allahs words and claims himself messenger of the covenant? In fact YOU are one who agrees with changing Allahs words not me. I follow QURAN, The Book from Allah. you know the one that says its complete and needs nothing after it? you must have read it at some point, although seems you didnt understand it.
And where at any point did I say any of this? you have proven you are a troll dear girl Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Honestly reading this thread I swear to God I am SO thankful I never met ANY self righteous, self absorbed, judgemental, hypocritical Muslims before I converted!
Unfortunately there are Self Righteous, self absorbed, judgemental and hypocritical people everywhere. Muslims (of all different types), Atheists, Christians, Jews, Buddhists...ETC
We all know them and all have to put up with them.
Posts: 431 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2008
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VB you have to be very careful what words you put together in this thread. You should even be careful what letters you put together in this thread, dont use any that could be considered French ones
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: VB you have to be very careful what words you put together in this thread. You should even be careful what letters you put together in this thread, dont use any that could be considered French ones
OOh er Mrs A Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: Need to EMPHASIZE again that, Muslims believe in ORIGINAL Bible, not CURRENT Bible, original Torah, not CURRENT Torah and of course believe and respect CHRIST and MOSES.
004.044 YUSUFALI: Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were given a portion of the Book? they traffic in error, and wish that ye should lose the right path. PICKTHAL: Seest thou not those unto whom a portion of the Scripture hath been given, how they purchase error, and seek to make you (Muslims) err from the right way? SHAKIR: Have you not considered those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They buy error and desire that you should go astray from the way.
004.046 YUSUFALI: Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe. PICKTHAL: Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few. SHAKIR: Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
He started with the Torah (1st 5 books of Old testement) ADD to that the Hadith of Moses, Add to that the Rabbanical Laws (Oral Torah ie, their 'tongues') = Talmud (Old Testement)
The 'Portion of The Book' means Torah, Gospel and Quran are THE BOOK
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: And where at any point did I say any of this? you have proven you are a troll dear girl
Well let the Quran Speak for it self..
1.
Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner. (5: 92). 2.
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59). 3.
So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment. (59: 7). 4.
But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (4: 65). 5.
But for the Grace of Allah to thee and His Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): and great is the Grace of Allah unto. (4: 113). 6.
Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3: 31). 7.
Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not. (45: 18). 8.
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (4: 80). 9.
Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (24: 54). 10.
When they are summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold, some of them decline (to come). (24: 48). 11.
Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them. (24: 63). 12.
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah. (33: 21).
The verses mentioned here are just some of the verses relating to the authority of the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Anyone who has read the holy Qur'an knows that Allah (swt) repeats his command to us to follow the Prophet, and obey him, and stay away from anything that he forbids, many times in the holy Qur'an. All these verses point to the fact that we must abide by and follow the Sunnah, and that we cannot obey Allah (swt) without following the Sunnah because Allah (swt) himself in the holy Qur'an asks us and requires us to follow the Sunnah.
You also should know that rejecting or denying the sunnah of our Prophet (peace be upon him) is an extremely grave matter and insisting and persisting in completely rejecting the sunnah in its entirety leads to kufr (disbelieve)! If you are sincere about reverting to Islam and to ur creator don't talk like a kafir disrespecting his messenger..! The Quran speaks for it self!
I advice you to seek Islamic beneficial knowledge..! Quran and sunnah comes hand in hand..
Allahuma Faqena fedeen Ya Rab w ahdina ila siratel mostaqeen...!
Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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002.136 YUSUFALI: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
003.084 YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
005.092 YUSUFALI: Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.
005.099 YUSUFALI: The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
006.019 YUSUFALI: Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him."
006.114 YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
007.052 YUSUFALI: For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
016.082 YUSUFALI: But if they turn away, thy duty is only to preach the clear Message.
016.089 YUSUFALI: One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
024.054 YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
029.018 YUSUFALI: "And if ye reject (the Message), so did generations before you: and the duty of the messenger is only to preach publicly (and clearly)."
036.017 YUSUFALI: "And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message."
039.045 YUSUFALI: When Allah, the One and Only, is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are filled with disgust and horror; but when (gods) other than He are mentioned, behold, they are filled with joy! PICKTHAL: And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are repelled, and when those (whom they worship) beside Him are mentioned, behold! they are glad. SHAKIR: And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink, and when those besides Him are mentioned, lo! they are joyful.
045.006 YUSUFALI: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
064.012 YUSUFALI: So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.
077.050 YUSUFALI: Then what Message, after that, will they believe in? PICKTHAL: In what statement, after this, will they believe? SHAKIR: In what announcement, then, after it, will they believe?
Now these verses tell me that the Quran is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED and needs nothing else.
The duty of the Prophet was to convey the message that is QURAN
NOWHERE in Quran does it say SUNNAH or follow the sunnah and the prophet followed the Quran which is detailed IN QURAN. The prophet followed the SUNNAH (WAY) of Allah.
Now YOU may like to ADD to the words of Allah and assume things were left out of the Quran, *I* do not assume Allah forgot anything.
What the prophet was meant to convey was QURAN and nothing else, that is CLEAR from these verses.
YOU may like to raise the Prophet Muhammed to a status akin to Allah but *I* will not. It CLEARLY says we make no distinction among ANY of the prophets of Allah, ALL were to deliver the message ONLY. That message is IN QURAN.
It CLEARLY says there is no statement AFTER it. Meaning NO HADITH ARE NEEDED, Its all IN QURAN.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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What you are doing is called biddah 'innovation', you are taking parts that are clear from the Quran and you are rejecting it! Not only that suddenly you are also a muffasira of the Quran And you give your own Tafsir Na3odubillah!!
Allah yahdeki w yahdena ajma3en, inshaAllah make much dua that Allah (swt) shows you the Haq not for me or anyone else but for your own sake!
Allahuma iny Balqt!
Allahuma Arina Al 7aqa 7aqa w arzoqna eteba3h w arina al batila batila w arzoqna ejtinbh.
Fe ra3yt Allah
Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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look LuNaCy, its no good rambling off in Arabic to me, if you have something to say say it in English.
Where am I giving my own tafsir? I quoted from Quran.
and in MY opinion what YOU are doing is biddah, the verses are clear, it SAYS it is clear, YOU add to Gods words, YOU say you need more than the book, not me.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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and another thing, what if i DO give my own tafsir? are you saying ibn kathir is also holy now? or anyone else who did thier OWN tafsir because thats all it is you get from them.
If you have anything in those verse that you deny means what it says then please be specific with each one, otherwise I suggest YOU do some studying yourself and not leave it up to 'the scholars' to tell you what to believe, trust in ALLAH to tell you IN QURAN
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Hermione Heliotrope.: I think if you ask any moslem what is THE most important thing in their life, and I am talking about 'true' moslems, they will always say Allah first. There is no doubt about that.
Now why would any 'true' moslem marry a woman who denies Allah's very existence? The very thing that is the uppermost thing in his life?.
The bottom line is he cannot marry you and still be a moslem, and you have to ask yourself why would he when it against the very teaching of his faith.
It's simply not allowed in Islam.
Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
Posts: 525 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MoDeStY: What you are doing is called biddah 'innovation', you are taking parts that are clear from the Quran and you are rejecting it! Not only that suddenly you are also a muffasira of the Quran And you give your own Tafsir Na3odubillah!!
Allah yahdeki w yahdena ajma3en, inshaAllah make much dua that Allah (swt) shows you the Haq not for me or anyone else but for your own sake!
Allahuma iny Balqt!
Allahuma Arina Al 7aqa 7aqa w arzoqna eteba3h w arina al batila batila w arzoqna ejtinbh.
Fe ra3yt Allah
You remind me of Sands and LML just a bit, they used to say the same kinds of things....
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MoDeStY: What you are doing is called biddah 'innovation', you are taking parts that are clear from the Quran and you are rejecting it! Not only that suddenly you are also a muffasira of the Quran And you give your own Tafsir Na3odubillah!!
Allah yahdeki w yahdena ajma3en, inshaAllah make much dua that Allah (swt) shows you the Haq not for me or anyone else but for your own sake!
Allahuma iny Balqt!
Allahuma Arina Al 7aqa 7aqa w arzoqna eteba3h w arina al batila batila w arzoqna ejtinbh.
Fe ra3yt Allah
You remind me of Sands and LML just a bit, they used to say the same kinds of things....
yes rumi it is the same rubbish
And LuNaCy, I DO ask Allah every single day to show me the way and you know what? every single time after, I find something else that makes me believe what i am saying, every single time, so HE is helping ME find the path, that path is IN QURAN.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I dont understand how everyone is getting on WK's back in this thread. She has been quite clear in her views, they are HER views, not anyone elses business, neither is her marriage or her relationship.
If those of you have a problem then why is it directed at HER being the baddy? Its her husband that is Muslim, not her, and him you should direct any of this at if you are so sure you know enough about THEIR relationship to have any opinion on it. But you know WHY you direct it at her? because you see the Muslim man as weak and unable to control himself the same reasons that girls here are mutilated and covered up because the poor muslim man is weak. Get real, he is not weak and she is not corrupting a society by wanting to get to know him and him her, however THEY see fit.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
You can't decide why people have an orfi, there are many different reasons. And orfi's are not just Egyptian with foreign, as many egy with egy use them too, for whatever reason. You think every orfi relationship the woman is getting played? Well there are a few people on this site alone that have been with their guys for a few years, and have an orfi. Also, I'm pretty sure you are not asked to leave the country if "caught" with an orfi. They are not illegal, there are hotels that accept them, as well as flats. If for any reason a police man wants to see evidence of a marriage, showing them an orfi contract is sufficient- and this is in Cairo, so I'm sure in places like Sharm it is even more relaxed.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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The 'Urfi marriage has always existed, but for different reasons.
In the past, it was common among the widows of soldiers who had huge pensions and they did not want to lose it by officially re-marrying. Now, however, it is mostly among university students and young couples who cannot afford the high cost of marriage.
Undocumented 'Urfi marriages are increasingly popular among Egyptian youth. The high cost of marriage forces many young couples to wait several years before they marry. Conservative Egyptian society forbids sex before marriage, so many young people consider the 'Urfi marriage a solution. 'Urfi marriages are conducted by a Muslim cleric in the presence of two witnesses. However, they are not officially registered and are not legally financially binding on the man. Couples married in this way often meet in secret and avoid the expense of renting an apartment. The 'Urfi marriage can be disastrous for the wife in legal terms. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since 'Urfi marriage is considered illegal. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry, which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.
The new Egyptian law (passed in 2000) recognizes the woman's right to seek divorce from an 'Urfi marriage. However, the law denies her alimony and child support.
There are also controversial, unofficial "'Urfi" marriages, where a couple signs documents declaring themselves married. The couple does not inform their families of the marriage. Many Egyptian clerics are against this type of 'Urfi marriage calling it a cover for pre-marital sex.
An extreme form of 'Urfi marriage is known as zawag al-'urfi: to give prostitution an Islamic cover, some women enter into secret marriage contracts with their summer visitors. Known in Egypt as zawag al-'urfi, this contract is made without witnesses and typically ends in divorce by summer's end. Most of Egypt's Islamic scholars condemn this use of zawag al-'urfi.
If a woman is married orfi, by understanding the full meaning of it, I have nothing against it. It is her personal choice, so at the outmost it only would contribute to the impression we make from people. She has to deal with the consequences of it, legally and socially, like in every choice we make.
That's not the problem. The problems isn't WK in her marriage, the problem is how you make it look to others. Not the family or neighbours, but the ones who are ignorant and are seeking advice.
There is no comparable condition in western society, it's strict islamic. We don't know such a thing: living together legally, but having no rights at all. As soon as something is legal, the law is giving us rights.(and obligations) The fact that society is rejecting orfi's is because of the islamisation, it is an effect of a society that developed conservatively. (WK may hope that she will contribute to a changing society, but it is the other way round: the society has been changed into more strict religious norms and values. In this way she is born too late:) )
So, any innocent woman, making her first steps into such a complicated material, likes to hear the truth, so that she can make a choice. Then an exploination as : 'it's something Egyptians do' or 'it is socially accepted' is not the truth and might contribute to making a wrong choice.
So, regarding to the statement that everybody is after WK, IMO they are not after WK in her own choice, but in the way she explaines it to those who are ignorant.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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WK.. deal with it. They don't like you and they will never be happy that you are in a good marriage with a good man. Dammit woman, until you are miserable and sobbing some people will simply not leave your ass alone
It is stuff all to do with WK's marriage or views on religion, Pillar CLEARLY just does not like her. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure that out.
WK, you and I (and several others living in Egypt) know that Urfi is actually no big deal here and just another misguided embelished drama created by bored ES members.
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