posted
And yes, I have decided to speak for an entire bloody country as it appears to be trend on here to act all fucking high and mighty and speak for the masses. So rather than trying to beat you I am meerly just joining you.
For the record, you can try and bite my ass and attempt to rub me up the wrong way but I could never get angry in a circus unless someone knocked my popcorn over.
please continue... send in the clowns.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: The fact that society is rejecting orfi's is because of the islamisation, it is an effect of a society that developed conservatively.
Just because women are walking around with scarves on their heads and some men are growing fuzzy stuff out their chins does not mean the society is getting islamised ( is there such a word!) Sure there's a small fundamentalist movement but normal everyday people are too busy with the grind of everyday life. The morals and corruption that are so pervasive in Egyptian society from the top to the bottom would make it an insult to Islam to call Egypt an Islamic country. Hell, I could go an kill someone tomorrow and as long as I know the right people to pay off nothing will happen to me. Lets worry about the bigger picture before getting bogged down on the morality of a few ORFI's.
And its no use going on about legal rights when Egypt has a legal system that simply does NOT work
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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There is only advice I can give: (except that Understanding from yesterday) when any woman doubts about subjects as this: Ask ANY Egyptian man how he would feel about it, when his sister should do that. Would the family approve an orfi-marriage from their daughters/sisters. Thén you will hear wether it is social accpted or not. The neighbour, an uncle, friends, you can ask them how they think about it... Point two ( and that was my point) keep this opinion in mind by advising newcomers. You claim to speak for the 'entire bloody country' as you name it,but you're NOT. Ask around.
Most important, most of us really don't care HOW you are married, and with WHO you are married. The only problem is how you make it look to the ones who don't have any knowledge about the culture.
There are enough Egyptian men who once in a while are visiting this board. They will admit the common opinion as I have described it. That doesn't contain any judgement from my side about your lifestyle, but simply is the way majority of Egyptians look at it.
It hasn't got to do anything with likes or dislikes to a person.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
Oh? Because I typically get asked 1. Are you married 2. If I answer yes, i get asked what my husbands nationality is. (go to question 3A) If I answer no, I get asked "why not." (go to question 3B.)
3A. Do you have children? (If I answer yes, how many how old are they, etc.) If I answer no, "why not"
3B. Do you have a boyfriend? (nationality question if the answer is yes, then "he's a very lucky man) if the answer is no "why not? pause, pause. do you want one?"
At this point I typically bark "Can I please just pay for these groceries?"
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
Oh? Because I typically get asked 1. Are you married 2. If I answer yes, i get asked what my husbands nationality is. (go to question 3A) If I answer no, I get asked "why not." (go to question 3B.)
3A. Do you have children? (If I answer yes, how many how old are they, etc.) If I answer no, "why not"
3B. Do you have a boyfriend? (nationality question if the answer is yes, then "he's a very lucky man) if the answer is no "why not? pause, pause. do you want one?"
At this point I typically bark "Can I please just pay for these groceries?"
Solve it in a future by asking why do you want to know for each ques. Posts: 133 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
You can't decide why people have an orfi, there are many different reasons. And orfi's are not just Egyptian with foreign, as many egy with egy use them too, for whatever reason. You think every orfi relationship the woman is getting played? Well there are a few people on this site alone that have been with their guys for a few years, and have an orfi. Also, I'm pretty sure you are not asked to leave the country if "caught" with an orfi. They are not illegal, there are hotels that accept them, as well as flats. If for any reason a police man wants to see evidence of a marriage, showing them an orfi contract is sufficient- and this is in Cairo, so I'm sure in places like Sharm it is even more relaxed.
How can something be 'illegal' if drawn up by a Lawyer and in many cases registered in a court of Law?
yes there are MANY here with Orfi, registered or unregistered, for various reasons. I have a registered orfi and have been married almost 5 years, another here has just celebrated her 6th anniversary, another her 18th, all LIVE here.
Its ok banging on about 'Islamic' this and that but how does a SECOND wife of foreign origin marry a Muslim man here in Egypt?? ORFI is the ONLY way. 2 Ladies i know, and there are more, have no choice but to marry Orfi as it is ILLEGAL for them to marry through their own Embassies. Are you going to now say they shouldnt marry a man already married?? no because that IS legal here for a man to have up to 4 wives (not going into the religion aspect of it here). Both these women have businesses and homes with their Orfi contracts. We have a flat in BOTH our names, rented and lease registered in court. I am not a 2nd wife and will marry in Cairo when it suits US but at the moment there is no reason to and finances dictate we cannot afford the cost of travel and accommodation in Cairo, if there was a way in Luxor it would have been done here. The ONLY difference it would make to our marriage is that it would be legal in MY country of origin, but I live HERE and my marriage HERE is Legal.
Snapdragon, I do not understand your comment at all. How can 'he be covered by the orfi contract' and she be asked to leave the country? that makes no sense. I assume you feel I and these other woman have no morals either?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ayisha. Egypt has 80 million inhabitants. Most of them are not married orfi. It's not about you, your friend, or WK. It's about how society deals with it, and what you advice to newcomers.
As far as I know, the polygamous marriages are representing 2% of the total amount of marriages. I don't know if an orfi is the only possibility in case of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th wives, I thought the most important rul in this was that the man has to treat them equally. In this case equal would be the same marriage as wife number one. Law must be contradicted in that?
The nationality-case: every woman no matter which nationality, has the same possibilities in marriage as anybody else, as long as she stays in Egypt. The American prevention-method to avoid them to travel to the US, has nothing to do with it.
But again, this isn't the subject. We were talking about the opinion in general about marriages in general.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
You are twisting it. I suggested to ask any Egyptian man about his opinion about orfi marriages, and how he should like it, when his sister or daughter should marry orfi.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
You can't decide why people have an orfi, there are many different reasons. And orfi's are not just Egyptian with foreign, as many egy with egy use them too, for whatever reason. You think every orfi relationship the woman is getting played? Well there are a few people on this site alone that have been with their guys for a few years, and have an orfi. Also, I'm pretty sure you are not asked to leave the country if "caught" with an orfi. They are not illegal, there are hotels that accept them, as well as flats. If for any reason a police man wants to see evidence of a marriage, showing them an orfi contract is sufficient- and this is in Cairo, so I'm sure in places like Sharm it is even more relaxed.
How can something be 'illegal' if drawn up by a Lawyer and in many cases registered in a court of Law?
yes there are MANY here with Orfi, registered or unregistered, for various reasons. I have a registered orfi and have been married almost 5 years, another here has just celebrated her 6th anniversary, another her 18th, all LIVE here.
Its ok banging on about 'Islamic' this and that but how does a SECOND wife of foreign origin marry a Muslim man here in Egypt?? ORFI is the ONLY way. 2 Ladies i know, and there are more, have no choice but to marry Orfi as it is ILLEGAL for them to marry through their own Embassies. Are you going to now say they shouldnt marry a man already married?? no because that IS legal here for a man to have up to 4 wives (not going into the religion aspect of it here). Both these women have businesses and homes with their Orfi contracts. We have a flat in BOTH our names, rented and lease registered in court. I am not a 2nd wife and will marry in Cairo when it suits US but at the moment there is no reason to and finances dictate we cannot afford the cost of travel and accommodation in Cairo, if there was a way in Luxor it would have been done here. The ONLY difference it would make to our marriage is that it would be legal in MY country of origin, but I live HERE and my marriage HERE is Legal.
Snapdragon, I do not understand your comment at all. How can 'he be covered by the orfi contract' and she be asked to leave the country? that makes no sense. I assume you feel I and these other woman have no morals either?
when it's registered in court, it becomes a normal legal marriage.
how does a second wife marry in egypt? like every other egyptian! when you register your marriage in a court, then you have full rights as a wife under the country's law. the 'secret' orfi many refer to is the piece of paper drawn up with no court registration that's kept a secret (so it's not islamic since it's a secret and it does not legally give you the rights as a wife or recoginize any offsprings.)
what you describe is a regular, court-registered marriage. again, when it's ANNOUNCED, when it's REGISTERED, it's NOT orfi. It's a regular, legal marriage. Only thing is, if you're a foreigner, it's not legal in your own country. But it's very legal in Egypt.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote: Pillar I honestly do not think WK is saying her way is best and the Islamic way is wrong. She is simply saying what is right for her personally and is accepting that may not be right for others.
It sounds as though this ORFI that started as boyfriend/ girlfriend has grown into something much deeper and that should be respected. Many of us were right to warn her in the beginning of the pitfalls but you have to commend that she has gone and done the time and built something that could last and is right for her and her partner.
I dont wish to get into an argument about whether ORFI is Islamically acceptable or not but there are many that will say it is, providing the right conditions are met.
I have said it before and I will say it again most Egyptian's are not that bothered how you are married if they see a proper marriage and these two are moving towards this. Egypt is not some sort of perfect Islamic society, far from it, it is full of hypocracy...and to be honest a few OFRI contracts are the least of its problems.
I really don't see why you find it necessary to be so hard on WK.
Totally agree Penny, exactly what i was thinking, you managed to write it down much better than i could.
I do get the impression Pillar that you just dislike WK. I wonder if you would give other members on here the same grief if they had orfi marriages? You know Penny, Micky, Rumi, Dalia, to name a few. Not saying ladies that you have it truly isn't ANY of my business, i am just trying to point out that *i* feel Pillar would react differently towards them.
I am not trying to attack you Pillar, we also had are differences on another post on where i felt you were being judgemental on my marriage (14 years last week ) Who knows maybe my marriage started off as an orfi marriage??? My point being - who really cares....... except the people involved.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hermione Heliotrope.: I think if you ask any moslem what is THE most important thing in their life, and I am talking about 'true' moslems, they will always say Allah first. There is no doubt about that.
Now why would any 'true' moslem marry a woman who denies Allah's very existence? The very thing that is the uppermost thing in his life?.
The bottom line is he cannot marry you and still be a moslem, and you have to ask yourself why would he when it against the very teaching of his faith.
It's simply not allowed in Islam.
Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
Only low class people get married Orfi, Give me a break, marriage without rights to both parties, what a Joke.. Why don't these people just get some paper and a pen and write their own marriage certificate!
Some men run away from responsibilities and some women simply let them. Nas min qeyr 3oqol! Rabina yustor..! Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: Walk of shames to surgery-rooms, in order to get an abortion, is much more common in countries without birth-prevention-methods available, isn't that logical? In my opinion, the fact more the law forbids, the more people will feel attrackted to it. Just like by raising up children: you have to make them understand what is good and what is bad. Morals and values are partly universal, so it doesn't matter in which culture you are, unruly, unfettered, unrestrained, ungovernable, undisciplined, unmanageable, wild, lawless, disorederly, will not be considered the same as open, fair, plain, sincere, straight, frank, honest, straightforward, clear, blank, sly, roguish, unmarked, free, freely, at liberty, unruly, unfettered, unrestrained, ungovernable, undisciplined, unmanageable. Gay, shallow, frivolous, light-hearted, flippant, flighty, rash, reckless, daring, audacious, presumptuous, foolhardy, light-headed, overconfident, temerarious, careless, imprudent, inconsiderate behaviour is not appreciated in whichever culture we know. You are going way to far by stating that one culture is good and the other one is bad. There are pro's and contra's to every culture, even the Egyptian culture. The numbers of depressed women, of women with one of more abortions in their past, of women who are suppressed in Egypt might be higher as you think it is...
Actually I believe there is some good in every country and every culture, note 'some' not all! Don't try to put words in my mouth..
Salaam!
Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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I can assure you modesty I was never low class, just because I had an orfi marriage Now I am legally married nothing has changed! WE love each other very much.
Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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Try to understand that some woman have to trap a man into staying with them.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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there are some very nice women on here who happen to have orfi marriages and they consider the said marriages to be just and committed - to call them low class is just ridiculous
if it suits them , their partners and their families ......... no one else's business
have they burnt down any orphanages? have they drowned any kittens?
these relationships are very different to the ones we haved heard about re the women and sex tourism, gigolo thingy - travelling for flings etc
Posts: 712 | Registered: Apr 2008
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ModeStY, in your first posts here you were 26 unmarried and moving to Cairo alone. that was back in 2004, its now over 4 years on so you are 30 or more, are you married yet?? Just asking.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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WOW,,This thread have been growing rapidly really..
I checked some posts but I dont have really the energy tbh to read everything have been written..
Hi again WK..Well lets going with what you said clearly..And I wish you could excuse me because my language abilities still limited to that extent which still affect my expressions and make them longer.
You said this "everyone should be able to live their lives how they wish (when not hurting others, or breaking the law)"
And from here you justified that right you gave to yourself to call the other guy-Btw,,I'll appreciate if you send me the link to that thread because Im not able to find it- some PERSONAL insulting things beceause you saw..(1)He hurts others (his wife) & (2)He breaking the UK civil laws,,Is it right??
So from here you have built your own assumptions about his wife and his personality out of the word he have said "which were CONSULTED with my first wife but obviouslly SHE DIDNT AGREE WILLFULLY but still ALLOWED me to marry again",,Thus you do not see calling him things as begging for dictatorship but its completely your right and it is justified.
Well,,Why then it IS a dictatorship if anyone else build his/her own assumptions about your own personal life out of your words about it,,Let me give you an example..
1- You said " You believe they have the right for them to know what he is doing. Is it LAW? Once again, notice there is a clear difference. If people didn’t do things because others might not like it " >>>> Hurting others !!!
Depending on the rule you put,,It might not be a law in your OWN opinion but it still will HURT other people who by a way or another are RELATED in the sitiuation,,Not to mention that the pain will be much more when they discover that he already done it WITHOUT even informing them,,Yes I do agree with you that if you stopped doing anything because others wouldnt like it then nobody will do anything but its STILL their right to know what he is up to and then if they have any problem so its clearly THEIR problem not yours,,And if you choose to do things others dont like but not telling them because they dont like it that will never going to help anymore in future Im afraid and will still HURT them mooore than telling them clearly.
Imagine the man who wanted to marry the second wife that his first wife found out that he is already married the second and hid it from her,,At least he informed her,,CONSULTED with her and didnt do it till he said she AGREED ,,So according to him he didnt do it out of force he waited until she knew and agreed.
And whatever why he did it and why she agreed cause niether me nor you will know but yet he informed her,,How much would the pain be if she found out by her own that he is married and lied in the same time??!!!
2- I've explained before the difference between urfi marriage and secret one,,The urfi is proper only if it is it is announced to everyone but it only lack the legal registering,,The secret one is not proper traditionally or islamically,,So it is really good that he is introducing you as his wife for everyone but the main problem here that those who are entitled didnt know,,Yet it has became a secret for them "HIS FAMILY",,since the marriage became secret in any side then its not proper then it IS >>>> Breaking the law socially and religiously.
Bring me ANYONE -egyptian or not,,muslim or not- who will agree that it is acceptable to be a secret from his own family because they will not like it.
BTW,,If his family knew that you both are married before doing it so please accept my apologize in advance for points (1 & 2).
3- Muslim marrying an athiest >>>> Breaking the law again of the religion itself with a CLEAR verse from Quran saying it is not allowed,,The man who wanted to bring his second wife to UK wanted to do circumvention for it thus you find the justification to attack him,,And there is kind of same circumvetion have been done in the islamic clear law here so the marriage would happen.
Now you would argue about the last two points that it is absolutely different since you said "Something’s just work for some people, and not for others. There are many things not allowed in Islam , that Muslims do. People will always follow their religion how they see fit , even when they know they are doing wrong."
So let me rephrase your sentence again by another way,, " Something’s just work for some people, and not for others. There are many things not allowed in LAW , that people do. People will always follow their LAWS how they see fit, even when they know they are doing wrong. "
Does it sound too different,,So you said "He knows I accept Allah is the most important thing to him",,So How is that...
Someone says s/he believe in a Holy God and believe in specific religion he has sent it thus believe in the laws and rules he have created within that religion thus respecting that laws and rules but not doing them because at all it doesnt fit as they feel so they can break some rules in it..that with something considerably holy which SUPPOSEDLY cannot be changed since it is HOLY ..
So why on earth you expect more efforts from human of respect and not breaking the law towards civil laws which have been created by another same human so it isnt holy as much as the religious ones for some people,,The other man in that thread you attacked him has done exactly the same as you did but with civil laws and you with religious ones and both of you saw there is no clear harm or breaking to the laws..
Now again does breaking civil laws are too different from breaking the religious ones to that extent for seeing it fair and to give yourself the right to attack this man and feeling that attacking you is unfair??!!!
In fact it is easy,,More than easy to take some other's words about their life,,Build an OWN assumptions through out our brains and justifying it for us to attack them,,Anyone can say s/he is fair/liberial as they want but yet they still do not find they do any kind of begging for dictatorship that is obviously a trait of most of us the humans,,Me included as I sometimes be judgmental as well but I dont think I've attacked anyone before or insulted them,,And may Allah forgive me for those times I've been judgmental in them in unfair ways.
You said its sad sad day when bigotry wins over equality,,But from another hand its more sadder that some seem dont realize that fake equality IS the first creator of the bigtory.
Once upon a time before you land here there was someone called "Sands",,He had a virtual machine gun and didnt stop firing his "kaffir" bullets from it on everyone in the board and saying how everyone's faith is either corrupted or kuffr,,I HATED that as well as many others but the sad thing is that some of the others who got fired by the kaffir's bullets is doing sort of the same thing by calling different views or faiths are corrupted or evil or whatever and not seeing it is as wrong as sands was doing...
And think it is liberial and not bigotry or dictatorship,,Which makes me think of that saying for that historian Will Durant "When liberty becomes license, dictatorship is near",,I wondering why...
Anyway,,everyone can live with what think its right for him or her but the wrong thing is to think you dont do sometimes what others doing and you hate them doing it.
BTW ,,I'd appreciate if any practicing christian here answered my question out of curiousty since Im not so knwledgable about christianty,,Does having sex out side marriage allowed in christianty or it is not??.
Sorry again for taking too long,,Have a nice day everyone.
P.S. Btw,,If anyone damning anyone I usually IGNORE them-since the era of sands- cause obviously it be USELESS talking to them,,Only I talk with the ones I THINK they still can talk or who say they are able to discuss till I find it useless so I usually stop as well,,Some people seem to be only machines which talking to them always end to dead-ends,,Why you would bother yourself talking to them at all!!!
If anyone cannot ignore them sorry it is NOT my problem,,Its their,,If there is any sort of bigtory so obviously giving it the attention which is making it alive more and longer and vice versa.
Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Having sex outside the marriage in catholism is not allowed. For the rest, I don't know...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
You can't decide why people have an orfi, there are many different reasons. And orfi's are not just Egyptian with foreign, as many egy with egy use them too, for whatever reason. You think every orfi relationship the woman is getting played? Well there are a few people on this site alone that have been with their guys for a few years, and have an orfi. Also, I'm pretty sure you are not asked to leave the country if "caught" with an orfi. They are not illegal, there are hotels that accept them, as well as flats. If for any reason a police man wants to see evidence of a marriage, showing them an orfi contract is sufficient- and this is in Cairo, so I'm sure in places like Sharm it is even more relaxed.
How can something be 'illegal' if drawn up by a Lawyer and in many cases registered in a court of Law?
yes there are MANY here with Orfi, registered or unregistered, for various reasons. I have a registered orfi and have been married almost 5 years, another here has just celebrated her 6th anniversary, another her 18th, all LIVE here.
Its ok banging on about 'Islamic' this and that but how does a SECOND wife of foreign origin marry a Muslim man here in Egypt?? ORFI is the ONLY way. 2 Ladies i know, and there are more, have no choice but to marry Orfi as it is ILLEGAL for them to marry through their own Embassies. Are you going to now say they shouldnt marry a man already married?? no because that IS legal here for a man to have up to 4 wives (not going into the religion aspect of it here). Both these women have businesses and homes with their Orfi contracts. We have a flat in BOTH our names, rented and lease registered in court. I am not a 2nd wife and will marry in Cairo when it suits US but at the moment there is no reason to and finances dictate we cannot afford the cost of travel and accommodation in Cairo, if there was a way in Luxor it would have been done here. The ONLY difference it would make to our marriage is that it would be legal in MY country of origin, but I live HERE and my marriage HERE is Legal.
Snapdragon, I do not understand your comment at all. How can 'he be covered by the orfi contract' and she be asked to leave the country? that makes no sense. I assume you feel I and these other woman have no morals either?
Please read what I wrote again. I said if there was NOT an orfi document between them and they are caught <alone>, he would go to jail and she would have her embassy contacted and escorted out of the country. Since they have an orfi and if they are ever stopped and questioned by the tourist police, for instance, they would see the orfi contract and understand why he has it.
Primarily, orfi's are drawn up between Egyptians to allow one or both parties to keep from having retirement issues.
When the orfi's are drawn up between Egyptian/foreigners, the lawyer involved (if they even go that far) knows what is going on and understands what the use is for. (to be alone with the woman in hotels, apartments etc.)
The orfi contract has no benefits to the woman, such as; dowry and parental rights. It is also not recognized by other countries as a legal marriage.
Posts: 525 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
You can't decide why people have an orfi, there are many different reasons. And orfi's are not just Egyptian with foreign, as many egy with egy use them too, for whatever reason. You think every orfi relationship the woman is getting played? Well there are a few people on this site alone that have been with their guys for a few years, and have an orfi. Also, I'm pretty sure you are not asked to leave the country if "caught" with an orfi. They are not illegal, there are hotels that accept them, as well as flats. If for any reason a police man wants to see evidence of a marriage, showing them an orfi contract is sufficient- and this is in Cairo, so I'm sure in places like Sharm it is even more relaxed.
How can something be 'illegal' if drawn up by a Lawyer and in many cases registered in a court of Law?
yes there are MANY here with Orfi, registered or unregistered, for various reasons. I have a registered orfi and have been married almost 5 years, another here has just celebrated her 6th anniversary, another her 18th, all LIVE here.
Its ok banging on about 'Islamic' this and that but how does a SECOND wife of foreign origin marry a Muslim man here in Egypt?? ORFI is the ONLY way. 2 Ladies i know, and there are more, have no choice but to marry Orfi as it is ILLEGAL for them to marry through their own Embassies. Are you going to now say they shouldnt marry a man already married?? no because that IS legal here for a man to have up to 4 wives (not going into the religion aspect of it here). Both these women have businesses and homes with their Orfi contracts. We have a flat in BOTH our names, rented and lease registered in court. I am not a 2nd wife and will marry in Cairo when it suits US but at the moment there is no reason to and finances dictate we cannot afford the cost of travel and accommodation in Cairo, if there was a way in Luxor it would have been done here. The ONLY difference it would make to our marriage is that it would be legal in MY country of origin, but I live HERE and my marriage HERE is Legal.
Snapdragon, I do not understand your comment at all. How can 'he be covered by the orfi contract' and she be asked to leave the country? that makes no sense. I assume you feel I and these other woman have no morals either?
Please read what I wrote again. I said if there was NOT an orfi document between them and they are caught <alone>, he would go to jail and she would have her embassy contacted and escorted out of the country. Since they have an orfi and if they are ever stopped and questioned by the tourist police, for instance, they would see the orfi contract and understand why he has it.
Primarily, orfi's are drawn up between Egyptians to allow one or both parties to keep from having retirement issues.
When the orfi's are drawn up between Egyptian/foreigners, the lawyer involved (if they even go that far) knows what is going on and understands what the use is for. (to be alone with the woman in hotels, apartments etc.)
The orfi contract has no benefits to the woman, such as; dowry and parental rights. It is also not recognized by other countries as a legal marriage.
It seems you should read what you wrote:
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless. No morals ....
If HE is caught HE is covered by the orfi contract, she would be asked to leave the country. THEN you added if there was no orfi. You gave HALF of one scenario and half of another, not the full of either.
Now if BOTH were caught they would BOTH be covered by the orfi contract. You said nothing in your post about that nor anything about him going to jail. So as it happens its good that THEY HAVE an orfi contract which is ACCEPTABLE if they are caught alone, right? So they are NOT breaking ANY laws, right?
Whether there are parental rights or dowry or anything else is thier business and they are both old enough and it seems WISE enough to know what they are doing and they have THEIR reasons which do not concern anyone else!
Now I have no idea about you or if you are married or not and as its NONE of my business I wont ask about YOUR dowry, contract, wedding rings, parental rights or make ANY judgement on YOU for whatever YOU see fit in YOUR relationship. I suggest people stop judging what is none of their damned business.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless.
No morals ....
You can't decide why people have an orfi, there are many different reasons. And orfi's are not just Egyptian with foreign, as many egy with egy use them too, for whatever reason. You think every orfi relationship the woman is getting played? Well there are a few people on this site alone that have been with their guys for a few years, and have an orfi. Also, I'm pretty sure you are not asked to leave the country if "caught" with an orfi. They are not illegal, there are hotels that accept them, as well as flats. If for any reason a police man wants to see evidence of a marriage, showing them an orfi contract is sufficient- and this is in Cairo, so I'm sure in places like Sharm it is even more relaxed.
How can something be 'illegal' if drawn up by a Lawyer and in many cases registered in a court of Law?
yes there are MANY here with Orfi, registered or unregistered, for various reasons. I have a registered orfi and have been married almost 5 years, another here has just celebrated her 6th anniversary, another her 18th, all LIVE here.
Its ok banging on about 'Islamic' this and that but how does a SECOND wife of foreign origin marry a Muslim man here in Egypt?? ORFI is the ONLY way. 2 Ladies i know, and there are more, have no choice but to marry Orfi as it is ILLEGAL for them to marry through their own Embassies. Are you going to now say they shouldnt marry a man already married?? no because that IS legal here for a man to have up to 4 wives (not going into the religion aspect of it here). Both these women have businesses and homes with their Orfi contracts. We have a flat in BOTH our names, rented and lease registered in court. I am not a 2nd wife and will marry in Cairo when it suits US but at the moment there is no reason to and finances dictate we cannot afford the cost of travel and accommodation in Cairo, if there was a way in Luxor it would have been done here. The ONLY difference it would make to our marriage is that it would be legal in MY country of origin, but I live HERE and my marriage HERE is Legal.
Snapdragon, I do not understand your comment at all. How can 'he be covered by the orfi contract' and she be asked to leave the country? that makes no sense. I assume you feel I and these other woman have no morals either?
Please read what I wrote again. I said if there was NOT an orfi document between them and they are caught <alone>, he would go to jail and she would have her embassy contacted and escorted out of the country. Since they have an orfi and if they are ever stopped and questioned by the tourist police, for instance, they would see the orfi contract and understand why he has it.
Primarily, orfi's are drawn up between Egyptians to allow one or both parties to keep from having retirement issues.
When the orfi's are drawn up between Egyptian/foreigners, the lawyer involved (if they even go that far) knows what is going on and understands what the use is for. (to be alone with the woman in hotels, apartments etc.)
The orfi contract has no benefits to the woman, such as; dowry and parental rights. It is also not recognized by other countries as a legal marriage.
It seems you should read what you wrote:
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: Exactly! He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. He will play her and in the end, she will lose. She will never listen so it's a useless. No morals ....
If HE is caught HE is covered by the orfi contract, she would be asked to leave the country. THEN you added if there was no orfi. You gave HALF of one scenario and half of another, not the full of either.
Now if BOTH were caught they would BOTH be covered by the orfi contract. You said nothing in your post about that nor anything about him going to jail. So as it happens its good that THEY HAVE an orfi contract which is ACCEPTABLE if they are caught alone, right? So they are NOT breaking ANY laws, right?
Whether there are parental rights or dowry or anything else is thier business and they are both old enough and it seems WISE enough to know what they are doing and they have THEIR reasons which do not concern anyone else!
Now I have no idea about you or if you are married or not and as its NONE of my business I wont ask about YOUR dowry, contract, wedding rings, parental rights or make ANY judgement on YOU for whatever YOU see fit in YOUR relationship. I suggest people stop judging what is none of their damned business.
This is a public forum... A forum with a lot of bitchy, immature, ignorant, whine-assy people.
People come him to give their input. That is what I did. IF you don't like what I have to say or anyone else, simply ignore it, if it bothers you so much.
Just because you live in one of the tourist areas and shack up with an Egyptian...doesn't make you Queen of Egypt. Frankly, I do not give a damn about your opinion of what is or is not my business...
Jeez ES has turned into a snotty European forum.
Posts: 525 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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A man came on here and asked how he can break a solid law of my country. He didn’t ask how he could break a “social norm”, that is totally different, and I’ve already explained you cannot compare the two. I don’t know where you are from, but I would be shocked if you were perfectly ok for me to come to your country, and then find advice on how I can break the law.
I cannot believe you think it ok that his wife allowed it, even though it isn’t wilful. If she didn’t wilfully agree, then that is pure evidence she wasn’t happy about it. She married in England, and had the right to believe she was entering into monogamous marriage. There are many women beating daily by their husbands, but they allow it, not wilfully… so, in your books, does that means it is ok then- allowing something not wilfully, therefore their husbands should continue, just like that man did. To find the page, just look at your lasts posts, that is where I found it. The man wanted to break the law of my country- I bet you any money if I came on here asking how I could break the law in Egypt, people would have been far more nastier to me (rightfully too), than I was him. Though whatever I called him, I stand by it.
In YOUR opinion family have the right to know… that is all it is, YOUR opinion. It doesn’t make it fact, even if it is an opinion shared by the majority (there are many opinions that were once shared by the majority, but have since been proving wrong or have changed). It is up to the two people involved who they wish to tell- Islamically… well that isn’t my area, I’m not a Muslim so really it isn’t my problem. The law of Egypt does not say you have to live like a Muslim, nor (do I believe) does it dictate to Muslims how they must practice their religion too- if it did, you wouldn’t see so many drunken Egyptians in the clubs at night- or, go to a certain bridge over the nile, and count how many unmarried couples there are, holding hands and kissing… perhaps not doing right by “islam”, but doing it all the same.
And once again, I don’t care what people like and don’t like… like I said, once people thought it “breaking” society, and even religious, law by marrying someone of a different race, hell, even a different class… so yeah, don’t blame me is I don’t hold much by what society thinks, because society is just an opinion, and therefore no more valid than my opinion, no matter how many people share it.
I can’t break the religious law… I am of no religion. I bet there are religious laws you break, religions you are not part off. You might say, but your other half is Muslim… well then it is really his issues, not mine, just like atheism is my issue, not his. We have found a balance that works pretty darn good for us.
Please NEVER power phrase my words incorrectly again- I’ve huge issues when Pillar done it, and I’ve issue with you doing it. You CANNOT compare the law of the country, to religion… In YOUR opinion, religion is law, I am NOT religious, I go by the law of the country. It is not religious law, it is religious principles. I refuse to live my life to principles I do not follow when my country says I don’t have to. There are many religious principles I bet you break every day… do you even know what the Norse principles are, what about Greek? Should you follow them, even though you are not a believer? Of course not, that would be silly, that is why each country has a universal law for everyone (some countries law are indeed from their religion though).
Ok… I do believe by Norse “law” that I can kill someone in fair combat… this is the religions “law”… Does this mean I should be able to do it if I challenge someone to a sword fight and they agree? After all, perhaps I think the law or God Odin, should be higher than what my country says… This is why a country ruled by religious law is not fair and equal If the man wanted to live by Islam laws, he should live in an Islam country. Simple. England is a largely secular country with Christian roots. If some body doesn’t like that, then leave, but DO NOT try to break the law. Should I go to Saudi Arabia and come on here asking how I can have two husbands there, even if perhaps my personal religion allowed it? Erm, no.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote: I am not trying to attack you Pillar, we also had are differences on another post on where i felt you were being judgemental on my marriage (14 years last week )
Congratulations! And here is wishing you 14+ more!
The only thing I see wrong with orfis is the whole “rights” bit… but, I currently don’t NEED any more rights than I have. We don’t live together, so I don’t need rights to property. As for recognised children… if I were to have a child, and he snubbed his responsibility, well then fine. I wouldn’t force him to be a father, I would let him go a raise the child on my own. So exactly what is the downfall for me to have an orfi here?
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
You are twisting it. I suggested to ask any Egyptian man about his opinion about orfi marriages, and how he should like it, when his sister or daughter should marry orfi.
Nice point. No one I know would agree to that. If a foreign woman is ok with that ok but she should not I think. What rights do she have then?
Posts: 133 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Ok how about someone actually give us a list of 'rights' an Orfi marriage does not have, and the Cairo route does have, then we know what it is they are missing out on? What 'Rights'?
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: This is a public forum... A forum with a lot of bitchy, immature, ignorant, whine-assy people.
People come him to give their input. That is what I did. IF you don't like what I have to say or anyone else, simply ignore it, if it bothers you so much.
ditto, but it doesnt take away the fact (ohh there is that word again) that you did NOT say what you said you had.
quote:Just because you live in one of the tourist areas and shack up with an Egyptian...doesn't make you Queen of Egypt. Frankly, I do not give a damn about your opinion of what is or is not my business...
Jeez ES has turned into a snotty European forum.
the 'tourist area' is not the whole of Luxor.
when I lived in my own country in my own City, I also lived in a 'tourist area', anyone who may live in London lives in a 'tourist area'
as for you rediculous comment on 'queen of Luxor' I dont need to comment on it, it shines on its own.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: I can assure you modesty I was never low class, just because I had an orfi marriage Now I am legally married nothing has changed! WE love each other very much.
Why get married legally if things won't change for better, and it would continue to be the same, not even half logic?
Btw Great that you are legally married! Wish more would follow your footsteps! Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
You are twisting it. I suggested to ask any Egyptian man about his opinion about orfi marriages, and how he should like it, when his sister or daughter should marry orfi.
Nice point. No one I know would agree to that. If a foreign woman is ok with that ok but she should not I think. What rights do she have then?
Ya ekhwana Some people assume that Orfi marriages are accepted everywhere in misr and that in it's self is another big joke..!
I feel Sorry for Orfi kids that are not getting their full rights from their useless fathers or government! In the west at least they have a chance to have a 'normal' life whatever that is (depending on the mum) and the country they live in, but in the east it is a disaster for them..
Like in Sweden for example, you can have as many kids as you want outside marriage and the government will cover the coast, a child will get like 1000kr every month until they gets up to 18-20, money for being fatherless 1200kr also every month until 18, over 3000 kr every month until the kid is 3 years old for having the kid home, over 13000kr each month at 12 month for giving birth to the baby the first year not to mention the rent being paid off partly or fully for being a single parent ect ect , now I don't agree with women that have kids outside marriages but at the same time their kids should not suffer as many fathers are useless in fact more then you think the mom is the Problem..! Anyhow Note this applies also other single/divorced/widowed mums, or mom's that their husbands have gone missing. So Alhmdulillah the kids won't suffer and they have a normal life considering, without worries about what to eat where to sleep, there is no homeless kids here in Sweden, and they won't live in shame as they would in other countries as here it is sadly considers normal. Unfortunately in misr Orfi kids do not have this luck, unless by a fat chance the mom is wealthy..
Rabina yustor 3ala elmoslimeen fe kol makan..
Posts: 122 | From: Sweden + Misr | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
Oh? Because I typically get asked 1. Are you married 2. If I answer yes, i get asked what my husbands nationality is. (go to question 3A) If I answer no, I get asked "why not." (go to question 3B.)
3A. Do you have children? (If I answer yes, how many how old are they, etc.) If I answer no, "why not"
3B. Do you have a boyfriend? (nationality question if the answer is yes, then "he's a very lucky man) if the answer is no "why not? pause, pause. do you want one?"
At this point I typically bark "Can I please just pay for these groceries?"
Very good, it made me smile as it seems to be a standard formula. At what point though when answering yes to Q1 do they ask if you have an Urfi? ... I would bet never.
I have often found in Cairo that those insulting others class are actually low class themselves! I never here the wealthy and educated folk resorting to such depths.
There are thousands of unmarried couples in Egypt as well living together, just becasue you don't like this fact it doesn't make it false.
I do know cases where folk feel 'obliged' to marry so they can live together. What a great basis for a lifetime commitment.
It just so happens not everyone has a high horse and many accept co-habitation.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MoDeStY: I feel Sorry for Orfi kids that are not getting their full rights from their useless fathers or government! In the west at least they have a chance to have a 'normal' life whatever that is (depending on the mum), but in the east it is a disaster for them..
Have you really ever BEEN to Egypt?
What about useless fathers who were legally married whose kids STILL dont get thier 'rights'?? you think it doesnt happen? you think because someone marries 'legally' that any 'rights' are actually given to the children in a divorce?
There are fathers here who marry, have a bunch of kids, find another wife whether he can afford it or not, have another bunch of kids, marry AGAIN etc etc, and NONE of the kids get their rights and neither do the women unless he divorces her! A man can marry here, have kids and bugger off so the wife never sees him again, the only way she can get any money to FEED his kids is from the Government IF SHE IS DIVORCED. Thats a massive 50LE a month! no matter how many kids she has to feed.
And I am talking Egyptian/Egyptian marriages here not Egy western marriages. Just because you THINK that there are rights does not mean anyone GETS them.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Ok how about someone actually give us a list of 'rights' an Orfi marriage does not have, and the Cairo route does have, then we know what it is they are missing out on? What 'Rights'?
Rights, rights, WHAT rights. If a man is going to be a useless husband or a useless father its doesn't matter what sort of marriage you have. FACT and if anyone thinks the courts of Egypt are going to uphold the so called rights of a foreigner then think again.
Look at the shambles of the CSA in the UK in trying to administer getting fathers to pay child support and that in a country that at least has a decent legal system.
I was just reading TL's post about a shelter just outside Cairo for women that are the victims of domestic violence....where are those poor ladies rights...... Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
In my country there are 'useless' fathers, who quit their job and live on social allowance, just to avoid he should have to pay for his children. Has nothing to do with culture but with the person himself.
Even in western society with all this rights, there still are escapes in every law. But most of the time, near a low moral father, stands a low moral father, getting low moral children...
This wasn't the subject.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MoDeStY: Only low class people get married Orfi, Give me a break, marriage without rights to both parties, what a Joke.. Why don't these people just get some paper and a pen and write their own marriage certificate!
Some men run away from responsibilities and some women simply let them. Nas min qeyr 3oqol! Rabina yustor..!
Do people, do you really think that way?? If you drew responsibility and a "right" kind of paper together.
Think also with your brains, a right kind of marriage paper doesn't make a man responsible anymore than a woman. One is going to find him/herself in the gutter at some point if you believe in this so blindly. Any piece paper -MOJ paper or orfi or whatever- doesn't make things any better if you marry a scumbag.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MoDeStY: I feel Sorry for Orfi kids that are not getting their full rights from their useless fathers or government! In the west at least they have a chance to have a 'normal' life whatever that is (depending on the mum), but in the east it is a disaster for them..
Have you really ever BEEN to Egypt?
What about useless fathers who were legally married whose kids STILL dont get thier 'rights'?? you think it doesnt happen? you think because someone marries 'legally' that any 'rights' are actually given to the children in a divorce?
That's true Ayisha. Let's look at street children. They are not all from orfi parents now are they?
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MoDeStY: Only low class people get married Orfi, Give me a break, marriage without rights to both parties, what a Joke.. Why don't these people just get some paper and a pen and write their own marriage certificate!
Could you explain how the prophet Muhamed 'married' Khadijah please, and how he married his other wives. What 'papers' or 'contracts' were drawn up and where they were legalized?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
A bad father will be a bad father whether he has no contract, orfi or "full" marriage. And a good father will be a good father no matter what too. It is ridiculous thinking the type of paper dictates the type of man he will be. Just read some threads here, and you will hear many women who were left high and dry from their "proper" husbands.
No body has ever asked me how I am married. I am introduced as a wife, and have always been shown the respect of one. If I lived in Egypt with him, then we would have a full wedding, not because of what society thinks (because really, if they see you being a respectable husband and wife, they really don't care what paper you have- in my experience anyway)- but really just for the big party But right now, we have something more important to be saving up for, that the idea of "upgrading" our contract would really just be a waste of money at this point in time.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: I can assure you modesty I was never low class, just because I had an orfi marriage Now I am legally married nothing has changed! WE love each other very much.
Why get married legally if things won't change for better, and it would continue to be the same, not even half logic?
Btw Great that you are legally married! Wish more would follow your footsteps!
MoDeStY contradiction or what!
Posts: 547 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: The day I am questioned by an Egyptian about my wedding ring I will let you guys know. From experience nobody actually gives a ****.
Oh? Because I typically get asked 1. Are you married 2. If I answer yes, i get asked what my husbands nationality is. (go to question 3A) If I answer no, I get asked "why not." (go to question 3B.)
3A. Do you have children? (If I answer yes, how many how old are they, etc.) If I answer no, "why not"
3B. Do you have a boyfriend? (nationality question if the answer is yes, then "he's a very lucky man) if the answer is no "why not? pause, pause. do you want one?"
At this point I typically bark "Can I please just pay for these groceries?"
Very good, it made me smile as it seems to be a standard formula. At what point though when answering yes to Q1 do they ask if you have an Urfi? ... I would bet never.
I have often found in Cairo that those insulting others class are actually low class themselves! I never here the wealthy and educated folk resorting to such depths.
There are thousands of unmarried couples in Egypt as well living together, just becasue you don't like this fact it doesn't make it false.
I do know cases where folk feel 'obliged' to marry so they can live together. What a great basis for a lifetime commitment.
It just so happens not everyone has a high horse and many accept co-habitation.
LOL, I didn't know what orfi was until I came to ES. When I tried to ask about it in real life, it was always met with a stern look, an uncomfortable silence, then then a piercing questioning of ... where did you hear this, who told you about this.
Thousands of unmarried in Egypt? You have a registry or where did you come up with this number? And also, just because I don't like it? Where did I say that? And why would I care? I'm not Egyptian.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I was talking to folk merrily sitting up there in ignorance that people in Egypt marry in Urfi just to have sex when I can show you 2368 (yes, made up...) people who just live together because people aren't as strict as people are trying to make it out to be. I did not think were in this set of people, maybe you are!
I PERSONALLY know people living like this shall I go back to the actual fact thingy??? If I know of folk like this then it stands a chance others do too... wow... I also know many folk, mostly Egyptians having all the sex and they are not married either, ... lucky blighters.
I hadn't heard of ES when I frst lived here, mind you the internet had not yet been invented Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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posted
For me the same, I didn't know what orfi was until I heard about it here, people seem to feel uncomfortable to talk about this kind of things. Which is a living proof of the rate of acceptance by the common people, if you ask me.
My friend once asked me about the meaning of a temporary orfi from a teenager-girl in her daughter's class. So, yes, it happens between Egyptians also, but it doesn't deserve a title of beauty... It happens, but nobody should want this for a daughter or a sister. As long as there are men ready to take the benefit of having a wife without having the resonsibilities, and there are women willing to give that to them, orfi will exist. Doesn't mean it is accepted. The common family would value their wives higher as that. The value of a woman goes along with financial responsibility, it's a big difference with how we ought to look at it in western culture.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Look from Egyptian culture if it is accepted or not not from different culture. That is the answer.
Posts: 133 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: I didn't know what orfi was until I heard about it here
The estimated number of orfi marriages in Egypt last year was about 700.000, I would assume that the actual number is a bit higher. And it's a well-known fact that orfi is very common among college students.
Even the government and Al Azhar have noticed that it's becoming a problem, and it has been discussed in the media quite a lot.
So I'm surprised you've never heard of this phemomenon before reading about it on a board.
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi.
This is one thing, I never heard about before coming to ES.
Has anyone actually ever experienced or personally heard of such a case? I haven't, although I know of many people who live together or spend time together in an apartment, Egyptians with Egyptians as well as Egyptians with foreigners. It's an ES myth that this doesn't happen, or that any couple spending time together is in some kind of danger of getting into trouble with the police.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
<This is one thing, I never heard about before coming to ES.
Has anyone actually ever experienced or personally heard of such a case? I haven't, although I know of many people who live together or spend time together in an apartment, Egyptians with Egyptians as well as Egyptians with foreigners. It's an ES myth that this doesn't happen, or that any couple spending time together is in some kind of danger of getting into trouble with the police. >
Not me neither,Dalia.
<For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. >
Much less of this one.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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<For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi. >
Much less of this one.
They dont even do that if you're married in your own country AND married orfi here in Egypt! Bigamists paradise here! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: I didn't know what orfi was until I heard about it here
The estimated number of orfi marriages in Egypt last year was about 700.000, I would assume that the actual number is a bit higher. And it's a well-known fact that orfi is very common among college students.
Even the government and Al Azhar have noticed that it's becoming a problem, and it has been discussed in the media quite a lot.
So I'm surprised you've never heard of this phemomenon before reading about it on a board.
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: He had a orfi contract drawn up so they could play around and if "HE" is caught, he is covered with the orfi contract. For her, she simply would be asked to leave the country ... if there was no orfi.
This is one thing, I never heard about before coming to ES.
Has anyone actually ever experienced or personally heard of such a case? I haven't, although I know of many people who live together or spend time together in an apartment, Egyptians with Egyptians as well as Egyptians with foreigners. It's an ES myth that this doesn't happen, or that any couple spending time together is in some kind of danger of getting into trouble with the police.
Well, that might sound strange, but you have to keep in mind, that my only expierences in Egyptian marriages are the ones in the family, and that are 'normal' marriages. When somebody is visiting Egyt on a regular base, and the visits are not relationship related, different kinds of marriages are simply not a conversation subject.
I've heard about somebody in a secret relationship where a document has been signed, and it was not an orfi, but something that is like what we know as an engagement. The man was already married, first wife didn't have a clue. I still don't know what kind of document that could be...
There are so many forms in marriages and relationships, and it is not exactly my favourite study-subject, so most of the time I just leave it, also because many people feel uncomfortable with discussing this.
Most of what I hear is about an Egyptian-Egyptian relationship, and from the ones who are trying to find an escape by foreign women, which are never serious relationships.
The attitude as earlier described: "We wouldn't allow this for our female relatives, but when it's a foreigner and she agrees, let her do what she wants" sounds familiar. They don't understand why a foreign women would agree in this, but at the same time they think she understands the full meaning of it, which is not always the case, and this counts for more subjects as only marriages.
As long as there aren't any children born out of an orfi-marriage, a foreign woman will always have the possibility to go back where she came from. She is not dependant to her Egyptian man, and she can go on by making her life as she did before. Except she might get a broken heart, it wouldn't have serious consequences. So, yes, it's different for foreigners.
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Now I am legally married nothing has changed! WE love each other very much.
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