quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Melchoir7
quote:I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc
A non Islamic influence that was felt was that of the magician and may have influence European witch craft. book a history of secret sociaties by arkon darul.the earliest mentions of the witches sabbats;which were also known as "synagogues" came in the eleventh century,and seem to show the assimilation of the diana cult with another:
one which involves the worship of a "black man". then we have mentions of brewing of potions,rubbing on oinyments,meetings and spells at cross-roads,renouncing christianity and the use of the wax image in a death-spell. by the fifteenth century,there was a remarkable similarity between witch meeting reported or confessed to,in many countries,some without much contact with one another. reference will be made later to the "sabbat" rituals reported from sweden,spain,scotland and france.
from the 7th~15th centuries the moors were ruling spain and north africa. cultral penetration from their universities into western europe was enormous; while their transltions of greek and other philosophical books posed a challenge which the theologians of the west were hard to meet during this very same period, a strange cult had arisen in morocco,crossed the strits into andaluisa, and wasactively-if secretly-followed in the centres of arab civilization with cosmopolitan populations. the latter consisted of arabized jews,christians scholors and wandering ascetics who travelled from one country to another in search of knowlage. the cult was called by the arab authorities{who tried to put it down} "the double horned", and it seemed to be connected moon-worship. it was certainly associated with magic, and its similarities to what were later reported as witch practises are very close.
the devotees of this cult met on thursday nights,were initiated by having a wound inflicted somewhere on their bodies{which left a smallscar},and beleived that they could raise magical power by dancing in or around a circle.
some of them claim that they at times carried out religious services which involved the saying of the moslem prayers backwards,and invoking el aswad(the black man)to help them. they served their priests, whom they saw only rarely, says the historian ibn jafar,after taking an oath of fealty of body and soul,they were drawn from all sections of the community, were of both sexes, and used ritual knives in the scarring ceremony. these knives were known as al-dhamme' or bloodletters. here is a typical initiation ceremony of the horned ones:we gathered by night, where two paths met and crossed; and he who had been so instructed bore with him a cock, which was to be sacrificed as the emblem of the new day. each carried a staff with two horns in brass upon the head; which is symbolical of the goat which is ridden,the sign of power and irresistiblity. "this meeting which is called the zabbat,the forceful or powerful one; and the circle of companions are the kafan(arabic for winding sheet).
we were thus termed, because each man wears over his naked flesh during the ritual only the white plain sheet in which he will be buried. "i was given the sanctity that night, and to join with the band of the elect who would spread joy throughout the world. those of us who are companions of the rabbna(our lord) examplified by the blacksmith".
While many will argue that Sufism has its origins in Egypt, the practice of Sama that of the whirling dervish comes out of Turkey. In any case Flamenco dancing can be traced back to Northern India where it originated with the Romani. There may be some Moorish Arabic influences however.
The reference about the witchcraft practice from North Africa is a good one. I had read about that before. I don’t doubt that there was some influence probably in Southern Spain. Historically however there are not a lot of records of witchcraft trial in Spain as compared to other European countries. The majority were in the Basque regions and reflect a lot of Basque derived superstition and folklore.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.
Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.
"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."
They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.
BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.
So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.
The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.
Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.
A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.
You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.
They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.
Let’s not start flinging insults so early in the game. And you don’t know what race I am but if it means anything to you, I am not white. Let me start by saying that I find it interesting that you would think that a stretch of water eight miles wide between Spain and North Africa would act as such an effective racial barrier where you would have Whites and one side and Blacks on the other despite the archaeological and historical evidence which shows migrations gong back and forth from continent to continent over many millennia. I wonder where in the world you have seen such a racial divide where one race suddenly ends and another begins within a short geographical distance? Normally the case is that racial changes occur gradually over a fair amount of distance. This you see in North Africa when you go south from the coast line into the Sahara.
As far as the Garamantes, I take nothing from them. I don’t know what their race was as there are varying reports. For example Herodotus claims they chased after Black trogolodytes. Others claim they were Blacks. But yet they have had the highest frequencies of Mtdna H1 a European marker than anywhere else in the world. In any case, it is a known fact that the irrigation systems in Spain are based on Arabic ones that have antecedents in Syria.
"With the spread of the Islamic Empire westward, agricultural and irrigation methods and techniques were introduced into the western regions of Islam. The rulers of al-Andalus and many of their followers were of Syrian origin, and the climate, terrain and hydraulic conditions in parts of southern Spain resemble those of Syria. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the irrigation methods - technical and administrative - in Valencia closely resemble the methods applied in the Ghuta of Damascus".
Thomas F. Glick, Irrigation and Society in Medieval Valencia (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1970), 169-170, 186, 214, 230, 264-265.
"At first, the land resembled the rest of Europe in all its squalor. But within two-hundred years the Moors had turned Al-Andalus into a bastion of culture, commerce and beauty. "Irrigation systems imported from Syria and Arabia turned the dry plains... into an agricultural cornucopia. Olives and wheat had always grown there. The Arabs added pomegranates, oranges, lemons, aubergines, artichokes, cumin, coriander, bananas, almonds, pams, henna, woad, madder, saffron, sugar-cane, cotton, rice, figs, grapes, peaches, apricots and rice." (Burke, 1985, p. 37) Burke, James The Day The Universe Changed 1985
That the Mauritania were expert cavalrymen who brought some of their skill into Spain, I will grant you. The Zenata reference is correct is well. But as “African” influence that hardly amounts to much. Moreover I still do not believe most of the African Berbers were even Black. Ibn Battuta of Berber ancestry himself said that the land of the Blacks begins in Mauritania. Now you may come up with some convoluted argument that the term he used for White didn’t really mean white or whatever. I have heard it all before. Nonetheless, If you travel south today from Morocco you find that by the time you are well into Mauritania everyone is Black. Coincidence??? I think not.
And moriscos were former Moors whom the Spanish did not see as Blacks based on their racial scheme.
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quote:While many will argue that Sufism has its origins in Egypt, the practice of Sama that of the whirling dervish comes out of Turkey. In any case Flamenco dancing can be traced back to Northern India where it originated with the Romani. There may be some Moorish Arabic influences however. The reference about the witchcraft practice from North Africa is a good one. I had read about that before. I don’t doubt that there was some influence probably in Southern Spain. Historically however there are not a lot of records of witchcraft trial in Spain as compared to other European countries. The majority were in the Basque regions and reflect a lot of Basque derived superstition and folklore.
Well Michloir your original question was African influence on Islamic Spain so that was my answer,but what did Islamic science and technology consist of in the first place!! Old Nile valley schools of thought most of the time filtered through Greek records plus Persian and other Mesopotamian influences but the point about African fractals was one of direct influence, today secret societies such as the Masons still make use of Kemetic,Islamic and Levantine concepts and paraphernalia,I cannot independently verify that Alchemy etymologically means of the blacks as in Kem=black in Mdu Ntr and the Arabic Al means the,And what was Alchemy but burning things over a fire in a flask to blacken it,hence Alchemy is the science of the Blacks Ie the Kemities AkA the Egyptians.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Michloir7
quote:While many will argue that Sufism has its origins in Egypt, the practice of Sama that of the whirling dervish comes out of Turkey. In any case Flamenco dancing can be traced back to Northern India where it originated with the Romani. There may be some Moorish Arabic influences however. The reference about the witchcraft practice from North Africa is a good one. I had read about that before. I don’t doubt that there was some influence probably in Southern Spain. Historically however there are not a lot of records of witchcraft trial in Spain as compared to other European countries. The majority were in the Basque regions and reflect a lot of Basque derived superstition and folklore.
Well Michloir your original question was African influence on Islamic Spain so that was my answer,but what did Islamic science and technology consist of in the first place!! Old Nile valley schools of thought most of the time filtered through Greek records plus Persian and other Mesopotamian influences but the point about African fractals was one of direct influence, today secret societies such as the Masons still make use of Kemetic,Islamic and Levantine concepts and paraphernalia,I cannot independently verify that Alchemy etymologically means of the blacks as in Kem=black in Mdu Ntr and the Arabic Al means the,And what was Alchemy but burning things over a fire in a flask to blacken it,hence Alchemy is the science of the Blacks Ie the Kemities AkA the Egyptians.
Thats only if you believe that most Egyptians were BLack. The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt. Its good to have some pride in your race. But one should be careful not to take it too far. Objectivity and truth is always best, my friend. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
It's not a belief that most of the Kemeties were Blacks it's a fact,for during most of it's history the bulk of the populous dwelt in Upper Kemet and I am not saying that lower Kemeties were not equally blacks but at-least the area lay closer to in-migration from West Asia and Europe,remember lower Kemet became important during the late period and foreign dominated eras.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Show me where it says those below are "Almohad" Berbers, and yes we have several threads on this topic, where I have layed out countless times that the Bulk of the Andaluci Population were not Berbers but Muwalladun converts, Saqalibba, Turks, Syrians etc.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You realize how dumb you sound demanding that folks don't post stuff from later Centuries after the Moors were expelled(15th Century) yet post stuff from later periods.
I mean you realize this makes your argument bunk right.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent. The Santiagos are 17th and 18c so I didn't violate
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Santiago Matamoros. 17th century Santiago Matamoros. 18th century
I specified don't post 19th cent/20th century orientalists.
I could go dig up the much older 13th c Alphonso X stuff depicting Moorish Almohad Berbers but we've already done many extensive threads on this
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Other than pockets of Foreign migrants in later Times, you have proof to back up your claim that "Lower Egyptians were not Black" as opposed that Upper Egyptians were "Mostly" blacks
quote:"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Other than pockets of Foreign migrants in later Times, you have proof to back up your claim that "Lower Egyptians were not Black" as opposed that Upper Egyptians were "Mostly" blacks
quote:"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt.
I really don't want to get into this sh!t again. But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?
Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.
Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south? Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair? With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?
Something I just found:
"There is an Egyptian-specific component, of West Eurasian affinity (look at the Fst table), what implies that it's surely descendant of the pre-Neolithic Egyptians of Asian origin. Paleolithic Egyptians that I presume existed based on other genetics (mtDNA X1, M1 and such), as well as Eurasian-like iconography like the Qurta rock art, similar to materials from SW Europe and Anatolia (but admittedly the Egyptian Paleolithic, with a few exceptions, is not well known on archaeological grounds being such a sedimentary and then desertic area overall, and also because archaeology in Egypt has been largely focused on the quite impressive pharaonic period).
This Egyptian-specific component represents 29% of one sample but only 19% of the other one, being also of some relevance in Ethiopia (9%). This and other differences between the two samples suggest some structure to be unveiled within Egypt but I lack the means (diverse enough samples) to do it. Anyhow the two samples are only somewhat different.
Besides this component, Egyptians show a diverse array of external influences, possibly Neolithic immigrants (?). The most important ones are the Kurdish or Highland West Asian component (17-20%) and the two Arab components together (14-25%) but others (Berber, Palestinian, East African) are also quite influential. The Iberian influence was largely a mirage (although still weights 4-8%)".
NEVER FORGET that Egypt is not deep into Africa but at the crossroads bordering the Mediterrean and the Middle East!
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quote:But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why as it a limit?
Who said there was any geographic limits for Blacks, Blacks live all way out in the pacific the ancients certainly did not believe that,nor do genetics and again Kemet for most of it's history was oriented towards inner Africa,only with the arrival of powerful states did they even bothered taking the Med and beyond seriously,namely the Hyksos and the Hittites at first.
Can you see the movement down the nile of the different Nomes.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why as it a limit?
Who said there was any geographic limits for Blacks, Blacks live all way out in the pacific the ancients certainly did not believe that,nor do genetics and again Kemet for most of it's history was oriented towards inner Africa,only with the arrival of powerful states did they even bothered taking the Med and beyond seriously,namely the Hyksos and the Hittites at first.
There were early neolithic populations in the Delta area early on.
Also Blacks in the Pacific have nothing to do with Blacks in Africa.
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My point was Melchoir that if Blacks were found all the way out into the Pacific then Blacks found nearer to Africa should surprise no one after all the Natufians are linked to the Mashubians who came from the Nile Valley.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: My point was Melchoir that if Blacks were found all the way out into the Pacific then Blacks found nearer to Africa should surprise no one after all the Natufians are linked to the Mashubians who came from the Nile Valley.
Yeah but Middle Eastern/Eurasian peoples have to start somewhere. If you notice most of the Blacks found in Asia are in tropical areas.
Also there were various back migrations into North Africa. This had to affect the original phenotype to some extent.
But anyway we are digressing from the topic of this thread.
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^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.
As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: My point was Melchoir that if Blacks were found all the way out into the Pacific then Blacks found nearer to Africa should surprise no one after all the Natufians are linked to the Mashubians who came from the Nile Valley.
And let's not forget that before the Natufians, there were the Kebarans centuries before who are also linked to a North African people called the Halfans. You also have early Arabian cultures like the Sabir which are linked to the Gash culture of the Horn and earlier culures linked with Doian culture of the Horn as cited by Dana. All of this is supported genetically not only by E1b1b in the Levant and Arabia but also far older E2. Also there are R1* lineages present whom Euronuts like Malcontent associate its presence in Africa to be a result of a back-migration though the ones in Africa are just as old if not older and more diverse.
I won't even get into skeltal remains with tropical African features in southern Europe as well as the varying threads of genetic evidence there including HBS (sickle cell) and HLA etc.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.
As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.
I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.
You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.
"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."
"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."
"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."
Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),
Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.
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I really don't want to get into this sh!t again. But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?
Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.
Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south? Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair? With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?
1) Who says there is a "limit" for "blacks"? Define also who is black and who is "non-black".
2) ANd who says tropically adapted Africans did not "spill over" into Europe? In fact they did. The Delta region by the way shows plenty of tropically adapted African features in ancient populations.
3) And who says Egypt is "hotter than hell" uniformly? Egypt has a variable climate- from arid desert to cooler Mediterranean zones. Light skin in Egypt is fundamentally an environmental adaptation of indigenous tropical Africans, who founded the Kemetian civilization when they came from south of the Sahara. Even Mary Lefkowitz says they came from South of the Sahara.
4) And straighter noses reflect environmental adaptation, along with built-in native diversity. Arid dry desert air for example tends to make noses more straight relatively speaking, compared to broad noses in wetter, more humid environments. Ultra diverse Africans however do not depend on mere environmental adaptation. BUILT-IN native diversity, the most in the world is highest among tropical Africans. They have said diversity even without heavy environmental determiners.
5) Wavy hair is also quite within the range of the ancient tribes of tropical Africa.
In short, the peoples of tropical Africa are the most diverse in the world, both in terms of built-in native diversity which gives them a range of features AND also environmental adaptation. They don't need
"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases." Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),
Eugene Strouhal circa 1971 is not only obsolete but has long since been debunked, as the hair data above shows. As for his "skull analysis" it is mostly based on his extreme juxtaposition against a stereotypical "negroid" "other", and his interpretation of any variation from the stereotypical pigeonhole as "mixed ace." But the "mix" is only one way. A stereotypical "true white" only "supposed" to have straight hair is never used by Strouhal. Under this hypocritical Euro centric race model Blacks are not "supposed" to have any variation except some "other race" gave it to them. On top of that, Strouhal also has some shaky claims- like "negroids" not being in Egypt until the New Kingdom. This has long ago since been debunked. Most credible analyses since 1971 show Badarian skulls clustering with those of other tropical Africans.
djehuti says: ^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.
Indeed, but even in the case of back-migrations the "backflowees" likely looked like tropical Africans. We all know that later in the Dynastic civ there was more influx from Hyskos, PErsans, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc. No one denies this. But by the time these folks showed up, over 2000 years of Kemet civ was already underway and 'done.' And we all know that there were small-time traders, herders, slaves, captives etc that came in small numbers to Egypt throughout its long history. No one disputes that at all. But these small, minor movements did not have much effect on the core Nile Valley founding populations.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dates from the 1400's The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal “Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
Your depiction of Blacks in hooded garments looks very interesting. But is propaganda and likely racist showing that “Blacks” are supporters of the antichrist. This does not tell what most of the Moors in Spain looked like. The Cantigas portrayed scenes from everyday life.
Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.
Other Europeans may have associated the word Moor for Black but they really didn’t have the concept of race as we do today. Moor just referred to swarthy people coming from the other side of the Mediterranean. When the Spanish invented the term Negro, the English and others followed suit and a clear racial distinction was made..
You may be familiar with the color ranking of the Roman Manilius. It shows that among dark peoples the mauritanians were the lighest.
In Manilius' order swarthy complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This would seem to be in accordance with the majority of light brown folk we see in North Africa today.
Most Blacks brought to Spain came with the Almoravids. They were not North Africans but recruited form Senegal and Mali. It’s documented.
“Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries. Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons. A continuing use of large number camels also unsettled the Spaniards’ horses, in fact, such animals had been known in southern Andalus since at least the 10th century.” http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm
Kel Aulammiden Tuareg i.e Lamtuna are from Senegal and Mali dimwit. They brought their vassals which were the Songhai (who are their blacksmiths, craftsmen and musicians, etc).
Those are the blacks who came with other black Lamtuna and Guezula or veiled men called Tuareg, silly.
The black people were in fact the original peoples named Berbers, not the Tuareg who had been only called Imoshagh or Mazikes a very tall in fact "Ethiopian" people who had badgered Egypt since the period of the Hyksos.
You can not escape who we are losers. lol! Where is the mention of a fair-skinned Berber clan before the 15th century Melchior.
Populations the color of African Americans don't count as "whites".
Neither do early Scythians "peoples of the sea" who disappeared into early non-Berber and Greco-Roman populations of Libya count as Berbers.
Which Zanata and Sanhaja clan occupants of the Aures and Kabylia were called fair in color. Which Masmuda people. Which clan of the Mauri give me some single reference to a clan of people called Mauri and Berbers that were not described as black or Nigri by Near Eastern swarthy olive-colored people. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Americans used to call the Africans Berbers because many were Songhai Mande people. The word Berber referred to the black Nilo-Saharan groups that lived amidst the Tuareg and in some places intermingled with them forming the Masmuda and Zenata peoples otherwise called in the North Zawagha/Zaghawa, Wangaraw or Garawan (Djarawa). These are the names of the Berbers my friend originally nilo-saharans who settled along the Niger adopted Niger Congo dialects in the Sudan and the Afro-Asiatic dialects in the North.
Americans have it in their laws that "the Negro" peoples of the Niger and the Berber were the same people.lol! Wonders never cease.
SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Indeed Zarahan. LOL The Malcontent speaks of a "mixed" population based on a variation of nasal indices yet the measurements of skeletal body proportions show NO evidence whatsoever of anything else but tropically adapted people!
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: I can't believe you would even question pre-islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.
First of all, I don't question that back-migrations took place at all during pre-Islamic times since it is well documented by pharaonic Egyptians themselves that foreigners settled around the Delta! What I question are the claims that some major back-migration took place during prehistoric times that led to the formation of preydynastic Egyptian populations! Again, there is just no evidence for it unless you can present any! In fact all the evidence points to the other way around-- waves of migration from Africa into the so-called Near-East! Secondly, I am NOT "Afrocentric" at all but rather truthcentric. I myself am Asian and not of African descent at all yet I try to study African history from an unbiased approach which is something sorely lacking in study of African history by Westerners. It has been a long tradition that whenever advanced culture is found in Africa, "back-migrations" usually by 'Hamites' or 'Caucasians' are called upon as explanation. YOU yourself are guilty of this legacy! I guess you have been away too long from REALITY, as the hold-over of 19th century anthropology and history of Africa has been debunked. And of course genetics is not bogus since it was genetics that has debunked your claims in the first place!
quote:You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.
As to how far cold-adapted Eurasians reached into Arabia, I don't know. You'll have to ask Dana about that as she is the resident expert on Arabian history and archaeology. All I know is that Arab oral history itself speaks of foreigners who came in from the north and mixed with the natives, assimilating the language and culture of the natives while influencing the language and culture themselves. I myself am more knowledgeable about Egypt and I am well aware of what you firmly believe in regards to prehistoric North Africa, yet what you believe does not square up with the evidence at all! The predynastic Egyptians were a fusion of different peoples but they were ALL indigenous tropical Africans! I don't know what you base your beliefs on, but it is obviously erroneous.
quote:"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."
"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."
"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."
Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),
Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.
LOL That old Strouhal study is outdated, as it was debunked by more valid assessments by his peers, which is something we've discussed many times over in this forum.
First of all, he focuses on cranial traits such as facial and nasal indices while relying on outdated stereotypes of "negroes". You realize that narrow noses and long narrow faces are indigenous to Africa as well. If he did a study on neolithic skulls in Kenya and Tanzania he would also find similar results of "Europoid" and "Europoid-mixed" individuals!
Secondly as for the hair, the color cannot expect to be the exact same as when the person was alive since certain chemical changes like oxidation and dry air can cause the eumelanin (black pigment) in hair to be lost while phaelomelanin responsible for reddish pigment (giving hair a brownish appearance) is durable. As for the texture, again wavy texture hair is not uncommon in Sub-Sahara and is in fact very frequent among rural Saharan populations isolated from foreigners and are very dark (black) in complexion. Not to mention that Strouhal did cross-section studies of the hair showing the follicle indices to fall in the same range as "negroids" and NOT Eurasians!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.
Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry. Leo Africanus Moor of Granada Spain.
Yeah propaganda indeed but it still remained that for them the Moors who they were at war with came in the form of this guy below so there must have been a significant amount of people like him Another towering figure was Alagolfare the Ethiopian giant of the Sowdone of Babylone,who’s "skin was black and hard." It is said that: This Astrogot (Alagolfare) of Ethiopia, he was a king of great strength; there was none such in Europe. So strong and so long in length, I trowe (?) he were a devil's son of Bezelbubb's line." There is also the legendary fight between William of Orange (an eleventh century count of Poitiers) and Ysore (a Black Saracen giant) Ysore the Black "Saracen" giant 1250 A.D. And I have images that I can fill the page with,but what would be the point if one still cannot come to the realization that board featured dark-skinned Africans were not auxiliaries in their own story as was said before.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...
I'm outta here. Peace. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...
I'm outta here. Peace.
In other words, you have no evidence to support your claims of ancient or prehistoric "Eurasian" or "Caucasian" presence in North and East Africa except the fact that some skulls have narrow features. Again, if you knew anything about bio-anthropology you would know that stereotypes about facial features have long been debunked and there is no need to explain such features as being due to Eurasians or Caucasians.
Again, there are neolithic skulls in Kenya and Tanzania that were also described as 'Caucasian' yet there is no evidence at all of any penetration of Eurasians. Just as there is in North Africa. Despite clades like A & B the vast majority of lineages both in the North and East are PN2 (E) derived and have NOTHING to do with Eurasians. Even lineages traditionally associated with Eurasians like R1 are actually found among West Africans who are stereotypically "negroid". Yet the R1 lineages found in West Africa seem to be the most diverse and the most ancient yet West Africa does not seem to be the focus of back-migrations! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I asked you for information to back up your baseless claims that Lower Egypt "Had no Blacks" which you were not able to back up, so Ill take this as a failure on your part.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [QB] and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?
Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.
We are talking about the Dynastic Population here, and are you saying that there were no blacks/Dark Skinned populations in Prehistoric Asia?? Evidence???
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south?
Last I checked the Egyptians portrayed themselves with similar Skintones as the Nubians countless times, but considering you are a google scholar you would not know this.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair? With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?
You have evidence that "Fine Features and Straight Hair" are not naturally found in Tropical Africans, if so please provide evidence.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.
As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.
I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.
You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.
"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."
"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."
"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."
Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),
Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.
So who exactly were those "europoid"? lol
And where is the admixture you claim, when did this happen?
But yes, multiple times it was stated that North Egypt especially the Delta region has a most admixed population.
Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions
Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003
quote: Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2003.
Population continuity or population change: Formation of the ancient Egyptian state
Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 132, Issue 4, pages 501–509, April 2007
quote: The origins of the ancient Egyptian state and its formation have received much attention through analysis of mortuary contexts, skeletal material, and trade. Genetic diversity was analyzed by studying craniometric variation within a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the evidence for migration over the period of the development of social hierarchy and the Egyptian state. Craniometric variation, based upon 16 measurements, was assessed through principal components analysis, discriminant function analysis, and Mahalanobis D2 matrix computation. Spatial and temporal relationships were assessed by Mantel and Partial Mantel tests. The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods studied. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2007.
An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Godde K. et al.
quote: "The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians. If Nubians and Egyptians were not biologically similar, one would expect the scores to separately cluster by population (e.g. Nubians compared to Nubians would have small biological distances, and Nubians compared to Egyptians would have high biological distances). However, this was not the case in the current analysis and the Results suggest homogeneity between the two populations."
The nubian mesolithic: A consideration of the Wadi Halfa remains
Meredith F. Small* et al.
quote: Morphological variation of the skeletal remains of ancient Nubia has been traditionally explained as a product of multiple migrations into the Nile Valley. In contrast, various researchers have noted a continuity in craniofacial variation from Mesolithic through Neolithic times. This apparent continuity could be explained by in situ cultural evolution producing shifts in selective pressures which may act on teeth, the facial complex, and the cranial vault.
A series of 13 Mesolithic skulls from Wadi Halfa, Sudan, are compared to Nubian Neolithic remains by means of extended canonical analysis. Results support recent research which suggests consistent trends of facial reduction and cranial vault expansion from Mesolithic through Neolithic times.
"....inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question include some of the blackest people in the world with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height.... The relatively long noses of East Africa become explicable then when one realizes that much of the area is extremely dry for parts of the year." (C. Loring Brace, "Nonracial Approach Towards Human Diversity," cited in The Concept of Race, Edited by Ashley Montagu, The Free Press, 1980, pp. 135-136, 138)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.
As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.
I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.
You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.
"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."
"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."
"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."
Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),
Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.
Yale Egyptological Institute in Egypt
Early Neolithic to Predynastic/A-Group
"Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "
quote: Northern Egypt near the Mediterranean shows the same pattern- limb length data puts its peoples closer to tropically adapted Africans that cold climate Europeans
"...sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine.
The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."
Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy"
quote:"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline."
Barry Kemp. (2006) Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization. p. 54
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...
I'm outta here. Peace.
Sad you have to leave, again! Anyway, where is your Saqaliba and Mamluk objectiveness!
quote:Originally posted by Omo Baba: ^So Duncie, tell us when did this "eurasian admixture" came to east Africa?
Omo I Homo sapiens remain from Ethiopia 190,000 years ago
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why as it a limit?
Who said there was any geographic limits for Blacks, Blacks live all way out in the pacific the ancients certainly did not believe that,nor do genetics and again Kemet for most of it's history was oriented towards inner Africa,only with the arrival of powerful states did they even bothered taking the Med and beyond seriously,namely the Hyksos and the Hittites at first.
There were early neolithic populations in the Delta area early on.
Also Blacks in the Pacific have nothing to do with Blacks in Africa.
lol, are you serious?
Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.
"During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts.
Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization."
-- Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt
Michal Kobusiewicz, Jacek Kabacinski, Romuald Schild, Joel D. Irish and Fred Wendorf
British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan 13 (2009): 147–74
"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"
--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.
As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.
I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.
You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.
"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."
"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."
"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."
Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),
Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.
Implications on Greeks and Ptolemy. Being that the Ptolemy probebly geneticly were E-V13. Which is scarce in Northeast Africa. Attesting that indeed they were minor, especially in the South and Middle of Egypt. At max the frequency is at 2.6% in the South. Middle 5.6% and just a bit higher in the North. I think the autosomal of E-V13 came from admixed Northern Egyptians into the South anyway. Why, because the region was hard to excess for foreigners.
The satues of the Ptolemy are purely metaphorical, in Egyptian style not literally. During the hell'anism they forced themselves upon Egyptians, killing people left and right, after Alexander begged for the Pharaohs tittle, which they the priests, did not grant him, since he was not of Egyptian royal lineage.
Black basalt bust of Pharaoh Ptolemy I of Egypt, dating from the 4th century BC, which was the period of the 30th Dynasty.
Ptolemy I was also known as Ptolemy Soter, meaning 'saviour', and before becoming Pharaoh of Egypt, was a Macedonian general who served under Alexander the Great. With Alexander, he served in many military campaigns, including those in India, Babylon, Persia, and Afghanistan. After Alexander's death, Ptolemy was appointed Satrap (governor) of Egypt, and later took the title of Pharaoh, founding the Ptolemaic dynasty.
quote: Series The Cambridge Ancient History
Volume 3 Part 3 The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C.
Chapter Title Chapter 36b: The Greeks in Egypt
Publication Date 1982
Author T. F. R. G. Braun Digital Object Identifier (DOI) 10.1017/CHOL9780521234474.003
Overview Greek-Egyptian relations before Psammetichus I
Greeks arrived to settle in Egypt in the reign of Psammetichus I (664–610 B.C.). For the period that follows, Herodotus found that Egyptian and non-Egyptian information could be combined (II. 147). Thanks to Greek settlers mingling with the Egyptians, knowledge was now accurate (II. 154). Significantly, no Greek pottery datable to the period between Mycenaean times and 664 B.C. has so far been found in Egypt. Egyptian trinkets, on the other hand, were reaching the Greek world in the eighth century, and a bronze Egyptian jug at Lefkandi in Euboea would seem to date back as far as the ninth. These could have arrived by way of Phoenicia or Cyprus.
Some contact then, even if indirect, there must have been in the disturbed century before Psammetichus I. The Greeks retained some recollection of the Egyptian history of this time. We have seen how the king of Ethiopia and Egypt, who must have been Shabako (c. 716–c. 702 B.C.) in 711 surrendered Yamani of Ashdod, possibly a Greek (above, p. 16). This ‘Sabakōs’ is an historical figure for Herodotus (II. 137, 139) who in the fifth century could get a fair amount of information about the 25th (Nubian or Kushite) dynasty. Shabako's enemy was the delta king Bakenrenef son of Tefnakhte (c. 720–715 ?), whom he eventually captured and burnt alive. Bakenrenef, as Bocchoris, was to figure in Greek imagination, though Herodotus does not mention him. He is celebrated as a sagacious lawgiver in the Egyptian account of Diodorus (I. 45, 65, 79, 94) which derives from earlier Greek writing – probably in large measure from Hecataeus of Abdera, c. 300 B.C.
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Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range.
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posted
^ I presume Malcontent would count all these rural Egyptian men above to be 'mixed' since we all know how 'pure' (true) negroes look like. LOL
Notice how he ignored my more detailed postings especially about neolithic skulls showing "Europoid" traits in Kenya and Tanzania.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.
Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.
"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."
They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.
BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.
So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.
The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.
Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.
A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.
You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.
They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.
Let’s not start flinging insults so early in the game. And you don’t know what race I am but if it means anything to you, I am not white. Let me start by saying that I find it interesting that you would think that a stretch of water eight miles wide between Spain and North Africa would act as such an effective racial barrier where you would have Whites and one side and Blacks on the other despite the archaeological and historical evidence which shows migrations gong back and forth from continent to continent over many millennia.
Jesus Christmas! - your darn right it wasn't a barrier which is why the entire corpus of rock art shows mainly black spear chucking Africans LIVING IN MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC IBERIA dimwit. And no it doesn't mean anything what race you are as there is no such thing as race. There are just Neanderdumbs and people with some freaking sense. And if you are not white you might as well be because your snide half-white racism is more aggravating than theirs. So good riddens if you are really GOING! BE GONE AND TAKE YOUR NEGROPHOBIC LUNACY WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW - Whatever people were migrating back in forth were some tropical paleolithic Maghrebis looking like their Mechtoid and Capsian forefathers. NOT YOU!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.
Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??
LOL! That figures.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.
Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.
"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."
They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.
BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.
So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.
The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.
Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.
A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.
You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.
They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.
... As far as the Garamantes, I take nothing from them. I don’t know what their race was as there are varying reports. For example Herodotus claims they chased after Black trogolodytes. Others claim they were Blacks. But yet they have had the highest frequencies of Mtdna H1 a European marker than anywhere else in the world.
You are basically too much of a bald- faced liar to even respond to. You suggest here that they have Garamantian dna . lol! Why didn't you post it!
Or was it the Libyan Tuareg in Fezzan you are talking about with maternal dna that is H1. Tuareg have nothing to do with Garamantes.
In fact - "Their origin most likely coincides with the fall of the Garamantes who inhabited the Fezzan (Libya) between the 1st millennium BC and the 5th century AD. ... "
Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: a genetic survey of their paternal heritage.
Journal Article: American Journal of Physical Anthropology (impact factor: 2.76). 02/2011; 145(1):118-24.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...
I'm outta here. Peace.
Hammer the second. You will never no peace. I guarantee it. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Other than pockets of Foreign migrants in later Times, you have proof to back up your claim that "Lower Egyptians were not Black" as opposed that Upper Egyptians were "Mostly" blacks
quote:"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt.
I really don't want to get into this sh!t again. But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?
Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.
Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south? Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair? With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?
Something I just found:
"There is an Egyptian-specific component, of West Eurasian affinity (look at the Fst table), what implies that it's surely descendant of the pre-Neolithic Egyptians of Asian origin. Paleolithic Egyptians that I presume existed based on other genetics (mtDNA X1, M1 and such), as well as Eurasian-like iconography like the Qurta rock art, similar to materials from SW Europe and Anatolia (but admittedly the Egyptian Paleolithic, with a few exceptions, is not well known on archaeological grounds being such a sedimentary and then desertic area overall, and also because archaeology in Egypt has been largely focused on the quite impressive pharaonic period).
This Egyptian-specific component represents 29% of one sample but only 19% of the other one, being also of some relevance in Ethiopia (9%). This and other differences between the two samples suggest some structure to be unveiled within Egypt but I lack the means (diverse enough samples) to do it. Anyhow the two samples are only somewhat different.
Besides this component, Egyptians show a diverse array of external influences, possibly Neolithic immigrants (?). The most important ones are the Kurdish or Highland West Asian component (17-20%) and the two Arab components together (14-25%) but others (Berber, Palestinian, East African) are also quite influential. The Iberian influence was largely a mirage (although still weights 4-8%)".
NEVER FORGET that Egypt is not deep into Africa but at the crossroads bordering the Mediterrean and the Middle East!
Kurds?! You will forever be a wacko like your brethren incapable of separating the current north Levant descended Egyptians from ancient Great lakes African pharaohs!
Lascaux cave art comparable to Qurta of Kom ombo.
"Can one speak of direct influence or cultural exchange over such a long distance? It is not as improbable as it seems. Finds of Pleistocene rock art in southern Italy and Sicily bear analogies to the Egyptian rock art. In northern Libya, near the coast, a cave site is known with similar naturalistic images of aurochs. Considering the fact that the level of the Mediterranean Sea at the time of the last Ice Age was at least 100m lower than it is today, it cannot be excluded that Palaeolithic people established an intercontinental exchange of iconographic and symbolic concepts."
Now you are telling me you can't see the difference between these Africans and you Europeans!
Moral: Don't confuse black Eurasians with you Europeans.
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Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??
no such refutation was made
There are three different accounts of Tariq ibn Ziyad origins given by Arabic histories.
1) He was a Persian from Hamadan. 2) He was an Arab of the Sadf tribe. 3) He was a Berber from North Africa.
The 13th-century historian Ibn Idhari states he was from the Ulhasa (French: Oulhaça) tribe. the Ulhasa originate from a branch of the Nefzaouas people and part of the Zeneta .
According to Ibn Khaldun, the Ulhasa could be found at that time on both sides of the Tafna river in Tlemcen, Algeria. Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been Musa's slave.
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Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??
no such refutation was made
There are three different accounts of Tariq ibn Ziyad origins given by Arabic histories.
1) He was a Persian from Hamadan. 2) He was an Arab of the Sadf tribe. 3) He was a Berber from North Africa.
The 13th-century historian Ibn Idhari states he was from the Ulhasa (French: Oulhaça) tribe. the Ulhasa originate from a branch of the Nefzaouas people and part of the Zeneta .
According to Ibn Khaldun, the Ulhasa could be found at that time on both sides of the Tafna river in Tlemcen, Algeria. Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been Musa's slave.
If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.
Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.
Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.
Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.
Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race. [/QB]
What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.
“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.
Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.
Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.
What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.
“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178 [/QB]
But at least the Andalusian Khaldun said that most people believed this is why the Berbers of his time (14th century) were black, and incidentally that Central Arabia, Hijaz and Yemen etc were a "zone of Sudan". Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.
Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.
Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.
What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.
“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178
But at least the Andalusian Khaldun said that most people believed this is why the Berbers of his time (14th century) were black, and incidentally that Central Arabia, Hijaz and Yemen etc were a "zone of Sudan". [/QB]
The Christians of Iberia used the term Moor to describe all the Muslims black and not black at that time. The Moors who invaded Iberia were largely Berber who came from the ancient Roman provinces in costal North Africa, Numidia and Mauretania. These were Roman provinces and comprised of a mix of indigenous Black Africans, Greeks, Phoenician Cartheginians, Romans, Sea people,Vandals, black and non black Arabs a history far prior to the 14th century. There were also Moors/Berbers in parts of North Africa that were not coastal but these were not the primary people who invaded Iberia. The people who invaded Iberia, Moors/Berbers prior to the 14th c are a mixed people. You could redefine what the world calls "Berber" and say Berbers are only 100% indigenous Africans. But that would not accurately describe the invaders who conquered the Iberian empire aka "Moorish Empire"
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.
Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.
Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.
What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.
“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178
But at least the Andalusian Khaldun said that most people believed this is why the Berbers of his time (14th century) were black, and incidentally that Central Arabia, Hijaz and Yemen etc were a "zone of Sudan".
"The Christians of Iberia used the term Moor to describe all the Muslims black and not black at that time."[/QB]
At what time only at a very late period of time. lol! Before that as Simonet said early on the Christian Mozarabs used it as a synonym for "Negro" black.
quote:"The Moors who invaded Iberia were largely Berber who came from the ancient Roman provinces in costal North Africa, Numidia and Mauretania."
Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned". That is only your hope and dream that they were all very much mixed. But as Ibn Butlan tells us there were only "a few pale women among them" and nobody ever mentions a single tribe as being fair in color before the 16th century.
quote:"You could redefine what the world calls "Berber" and say Berbers are only 100% indigenous Africans. "
The word Berber has already been redefined by north african nationalists, Neandernutcase.
If you don't mind we are all here just learning about and explaining why Moors were called black as night (Isidore)as pitch Corippus, as ravens (Corippus), as ink (Chanson de Roland)for so long and why in Spanish-speaking countries like Ecuador EVEN TODAY variants of the word still mean "NEGRO".
You do know that in the earliest periods even before the "black-skinned negroid" Masmuda ruled Almohades and the Tuareg dominated Almoravids, negroid black-skinned Berbers including Negroid Zanata and Masmuda and Azuwagh along with Tuareg and black Arabians were the predominant Muslims in Spain - hence the phrase "MOORISH SPAIN"!
Over 900,000 Berbers according to Aline Angoustoures i.e. black-skinned Masmuda (Barghuwata, Gumeri etc), Garawa and Zawagha clans of the Zanata and near black Tuareg (Sanhaja,Zanata, Gaezula) Africans were at one time settled in Iberia. I know it hurts, but youll get it over it one day.
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Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".
correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers
Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania
Carthage
Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]
the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion
Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".
correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers
Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania
Carthage
Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]
the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion
.
It's funny how you wholeheartedly fight with tooth and nail every contribution of the African. Trying to reduce it at every cost. Now it has even come to the point, where you now are making up sh*t again. It's "science fiction" in the true sense of the word.
Why don't you go into details like Dana does? Is it because you lack the actual knowledge? Instead of generalizing with baseless random picture spamming.
So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.
Fernández Domínguez, E. et al.
(2005)
The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region.
The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period.
The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods.
The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.
Description: SUMMARY OF DOCTORAL THESIS The origins of European populations have been addressed from different disciplines, highlighting the contribution of population genetics studies. Shuffle two moments in prehistory in which it has been possible to model the gene pool of populations in Europe: the spread of Neolithic and Palaeolithic period expansions. The ability to recover from bygone population genetics provides a unique opportunity to test the assumptions made in situ from other disciplines. We studied 197 samples from 115 dental and bone individuals 17 archaeological sites Sumerian Neolithic and Middle East, when Meroitic Nubia and Paleolithic era, post-Neolithic and Neolithic of the Iberian Peninsula. We obtained complete sequences of mitochondrial DNA of 244 bp of 35 different individuals, were compared with sequences from the same region of present individuals from 38 populations in Europe, Africa and Middle East. In phylogenetic reconstructions based on Reynolds distance groups of ancient samples are grouped together, separated from the rest of current populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions made from the haplotypes of ancient and modern samples denote that although the majority of ancient mitochondrial variants are not present in current populations sampled, may relate more or less closely with them. The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material. ABSTRACT The origins of the European Populations Studied extensively from Have Been Different disciplines. It is Thought That ancient demic expansions, like occurred After the Late Those Glacial Maximum or DURING the Middle East from neolithic diffussion to Europe. The Possibility to recover DNA from past Populations offers an unique Opportunity to test in situ These hypothesis. 197 It Were Analyzed teeth and bones from 115 individuos Archaeological Sites and 17 Different from Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula. It WAS possible to recover mitochondrial DNA sequences 244pb-35 from Different Individuals. They Were 38 Compared to sequences from European, African and Middle Eastern Populations present-day. Phylogenetic Reconstructions from Reynolds genetic distance Showed That ancient samples clustered together, extant from Clearly Separated Populations. Howeve, based phylogenetic Reconstructions on ancient and modern mitochondrial haplotypes Showed That ancient haplotypes are related to extant ones. Haplotype frequencies and haplogroup in samples from the ancient Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula are Different from Those Clearly present in the Same Geographical Nowadays regions. Haplogroups related to J neolithic expansion to Europe, U3, W and X-are absent in ancient middle eastern sample. There are two possible Explanations to this fact. First, It Could Be That the ancient samples possible Analyzed wont be representative of the Middle Eastern Populations That expanded the neolithic. Second, It Could Be That Those haplogroups Also possible wont Have Been made to them in Europe associated with expansions to neolithic demic. At This work It Were Also Examined technical Several Aspects related to the obtention of genuine ancient DNA and the Influence of Different variables in DNA preservation.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".
correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers
Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania
Carthage
Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]
the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion
.
Sorry Patrol - you misunderstood me. I said Syrian, Roman and Iranian looking people like these referred to ALL Berbers as blacks. So Syrians and Romans didn't consider themselves black. And neither do I.
Neanderdummy here is trying to confuse matters as usual. I, like the Syrians and Persians personally don't see anything black about Romans and Syrians like other people on this site. But people from Sweden where this white woman is apparently from - judging from her original profile - do.
Obama and millions of other African Americans who are not mulattos who are the color of Tuareg look nothing like Romans and Syrians regardless of what Neanderdummy thinks camera lighting can do and neither did the Garamantes, whom theyGreeks like Ptolemy 2 said were "more like Ethiopians" than Libyans.
So I am not sure what her point is. Although that it is true very black people in Africa have asked Richard Pryor if he is Italian and will call woolly haired African Americans white, and very white skinned people in Europe/Sweden will call Turks black. One is mostly African in origin, and one is clearly not - but rather in fact directly related to other hairsute non-African Eurasiatic people.
Of course North Africans being where they are display a variety of traits - the fairer ones in particular exhibiting stronger links to the Levant and Europe than they do to African AMericans and Saharan Africans.
And since modern Tuareg like modern African Americans for the most part are not purely representative of their ancient AFrican ancestors i.e. black people. I'm not sure what she keeps posting them for.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".
correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers
Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania
Carthage
Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]
the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion
.
It's funny how you wholeheartedly fight with tooth and nail every contribution of the African. Trying to reduce it at every cost. Now it has even come to the point, where you now are making up sh*t again. It's "science fiction" in the true sense of the word.
Why don't you go into details like Dana does? Is it because you lack the actual knowledge? Instead of generalizing with baseless random picture spamming.
So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?
Yes it is probably a Neanderthick skull that a baseball wouldn't make a dent in. However, I am certain the Neandernut blockheadedness this wacko exhibits like other wackos persistently is based on jealousy of blacks. Only some kind of animal half-crazed with jealousy could be that persistent in its irrationality and attempt to sabotage like a Ku Klux Klansmen or an perhaps autistic person of some sort. There is literally something wrong with them. The woman hasn't said a single thing in support of black culture outside of slavery on this site. We are not allowed to exist except accept in Tarzan movies. This is why not only do I not take her seriously anymore but she is in my book rather diabolical and was very likely brought up racist. Now because black people are expressing themselves and are able to discover their roots she feels threatened. It literally hurts them physically. They feel pain when they realize they are not the tanned Pharaohs. This is the way certain kinds of white people are in the United States in fact trollpatrol and in fact in AFrica. There are still places here where you have to walk in the back of the restaurant if you are black in the United States, and it is a large part of the reason we have such a backlash against Obama.
They literally can not stand the fact that he is black. They are used to thinking of themselves as better than "the Negro" so they will do everything in their power to attack him for the silliest reasons and furthermore show him disrespect that they have shown no other president.
Now a white Mediterranean man such as this isn't allowed to claim his heritage European because other white Neanderdummies would like to make them into ancient Egyptians and the like, so they can say at least we were there too and feel better than "the Negro" - again.
We are "Afro-centric" for saying this EuroMediterranean was not Afro-Mediterranean and was more related to a European than to an ancient people that all descriptions said were black and woolly haired like the Berbers and Mauri. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?
You are saying the same thing I am saying. I'm saying is that most of the people in Africa who invaded the Iberian peninsula came from these coastal North African regions, Numidia and Maurentania. Those are mixed regions that include many foreigners and have been mixed since before the birth of Christ. They are part of the Berbers and Berbers also include indigenous Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Some of the people in your post aren't Berber, but Tuareg.
You said this in the Kabyle thread. It's wrong Tuareg are Berbers also but most of them live South of other Berbers. They live mainly in Mali and Niger but also some other places.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?
You are saying the same thing I am saying. I'm saying is that most of the people in Africa who invaded the Iberian peninsula came from these coastal North African regions, Numidia and Maurentania. Those are mixed regions that include many foreigners and have been mixed since before the birth of Christ. They are part of the Berbers and Berbers also include indigenous Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Some of the people in your post aren't Berber, but Tuareg.
You said this in the Kabyle thread. It's wrong Tuareg are Berbers also but most of them live South of other Berbers. They live mainly in Mali and Niger but also some other places.
so I blame all of you for preferring "RACE WAR" topics
.
What I wrote in my previous post was. You can't go in to detailed arguments like Dana. So all you have as a response is a picture spam. And you still have no argument to the original inhabitants of North Africa. So much for your sarcasm, I don't see, what this has to do what a billion threads you have started. As if I have time to sit here all day...reading and responding to all your "race argument" threads. Day-in-day-out.lol
So, I blame you for having your head stuck in your ass...very deep. Not able to think critically.
However, it is you who is fighting the historic contribution of the African. You are a paper thin racist. Who has been exposed multiple times, for not being a African American black woman. But merely a fake!
Oh, before I forget. Tuaregs aren't Berbers. I repeat, Tuaregs aren't Berbers. It only goes as far as some in the North having mixture. But that doesn't make Tuaregs Berbers.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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And you don’t know what race I am but if it means anything to you, I am not white. Let me start by saying that I find it interesting that you would think that a stretch of water eight miles wide between Spain and North Africa would act as such an effective racial barrier where you would have Whites and one side and Blacks on the other despite the archaeological and historical evidence which shows migrations gong back and forth from continent to continent over many millennia. I wonder where in the world you have seen such a racial divide where one race suddenly ends and another begins within a short geographical distance? Normally the case is that racial changes occur gradually over a fair amount of distance. This you see in North Africa when you go south from the coast line into the Sahara.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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