quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: are most African Americans closer to North West Africans or ancient Egyptians?
also:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done,
In your opinion what is the primary resaon you feel that the Henn study was badly done?
I already elaborate on my reasons in the thread dedicated to the Henn study (started by you). Their choice of population samples is too limited for such population structure study. As for the first question, it's subjective, trivial and related to which subjects are chosen specifically. More that the subject is close to so-called sub-Saharan Africans, the closer he will be to Ancient Egyptians, if we believe the current aDNA analysis. For example, Ancient Egyptians doesn't seem to have HUV mtDNA haplogroups or if they have them and is hidden away somehow, it must be at low frequency since none of the study matches those regions.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
What are we talking about again? Results for Ancient remains or nonsense about the magreb for 2 year ago? Dont let trolls steer you down a rabbit hole on stupidity.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What are we talking about again? Results for Ancient remains or nonsense about the magreb for 2 year ago? Dont let trolls steer you down a rabbit hole on stupidity.
Have you seen my last post on the other page in this thread? What "West African" traditions mention a west to east migration?
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ Right, i know it takes more that 5 minutes but it is something that we have all thought about for a long long time. This is what we know.
-E1b1a seems to have a relatively recent push (or return) into Sub Saharan Africa and erased much of the previous diversity in the West.
-Agricultural traditions of the Northern most West Africans (E1b1a carriers) in Senegal is know to have its root further north in Mauritania.
-Elbla was found in Ramesses III, Unknown man E and other unreleased old kingdom Samples. Therefore E1b1a has an ancient presence in North Africa.
-Certain "West African" traditions indicate anceint West to East migrations and could in indicative of E1b1a migration. Sahelian crops, Pottery.
-Other genetic clues like, West African TB, Sickle Cell as well as the analysis of physical remains may indicate and affinity of West African/Central African, Saharan people...(Mali, Niger, Benin) with Nile Vally and desert people further East. The Western counter parts could have been E1b1a carriers.
-There are lithic and pottery traditions that connect the Western Deserts of Egypt/Sudan with regions in Chad. Populations in Chad carry E1b1a lineages that were possibly carried by their ancestors.
I could go on and on. The point is the old idea of E1b1b moving all over the place all the time while E1b1a traveled the southern Sahel, Sat in Senegal for 35kya and pushed North after Saharan Desecration with the slave trade and south with the Bantu is not longer on the table. If there are no maps showing the migration of E1b1a carriers based on some of the latest data and aDNA studies then it is up to use to hypothesize such maps ourselves. IMO the future evidence will show that the late push in the East of E-V32 (Having an origin supposedly somewhere in Egypt and a distribution of less than 1%) South into the Horn of Africa will show a parallel pattern with E1b1a disbursing back into Sub Saharan Africa from a similar latitude as Egypt yet in the West. The TMRCA for both lineages in the East and West are pretty much the same.
@ Truthcentric - That is excellent.
Interesting. A lot of good points. Finding the Benin variety of sickel cell mutation in Ancient Egypt (if the variety is confirmed, I never read the Marin study) as well as pottery from Mali to Ancient Egypt is very interesting. In my opinion, we're not talking about one migration events, but possibly multiples ones taking mostly the same routes but possibly new ones. Some kind of back and forth movements within Africa in ancient times with climatic changes being the main drivers (as well as some technological advancement). Let's recall that African populations usually have the highest level of genetic diversity in the world (so limited bottleneck effect, genetic drift effect, more within Africa admixtures). I would guess that the expansion of E1b1a in West Africa is probably due to population expansion (maybe due to agriculture after the desertification of the Sahara) and absorption of ancient population of much smaller demographic size within those groups. Maybe through patrilineality .
It's not a big thing, but I meant patrilocality. That is when the female join the homestead of the husband when they intermarry between different groups.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What are we talking about again? Results for Ancient remains or nonsense about the magreb for 2 year ago? Dont let trolls steer you down a rabbit hole on stupidity.
Have you seen my last post on the other page in this thread? What "West African" traditions mention a west to east migration?
I am just commenting on how yall folks let lioness run this forum. Yall chase after her like a dog chasing its tail. The most interesting article can be posted here and folks would fill the thread with off topic posts to Lioness with an attention span of a 3 year old. This thread is 7 pages long. Derailed on the first page and contains maybe 1 page of constructive comments.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What are we talking about again? Results for Ancient remains or nonsense about the magreb for 2 year ago? Dont let trolls steer you down a rabbit hole on stupidity.
Have you seen my last post on the other page in this thread? What "West African" traditions mention a west to east migration?
I am just commenting on how yall folks let lioness run this forum. Yall chase after her like a dog chasing its tail. The most interesting article can be posted here and folks would fill the thread with off topic posts to Lioness with an attention span of a 3 year old. This thread is 7 pages long. Derailed on the first page and contains maybe 1 page of constructive comments.
Thanks for your comment. There's lioness and also swenet. But why don't we steer the discussion in another direction together. Maybe you can start by telling us what "West African traditions" mention an ancient west to east migration (possibly of E-M2 people). It is very interesting.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I am just commenting on how yall folks let lioness run this forum. Yall chase after her like a dog chasing its tail. The most interesting article can be posted here and folks would fill the thread with off topic posts to Lioness with an attention span of a 3 year old. This thread is 7 pages long. Derailed on the first page and contains maybe 1 page of constructive comments. [/QB]
go back and read page 1.
Note my comments and that people rasied several issues on page 1, many of these I did not comment on
Take note that the following other page 1 remarks were not instigated by me:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: These results look funky...not right. Source???
especially this
OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173(----R-V88??) L2 OK T-M184 L0a OK E-M35 R0a
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yeah. No source cited there either. All I see is A table with DNA results. No author, no reference etc.
The haplogroups are VERY diverse. Almost ALL African HG are represented. Data does not seem right. I am wondering if we are being played. That's all.
This combination looks strange
OK T-M184 L0a OK E-M35 R0a
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] Yeah. No source cited there either. All I see is A table with DNA results. No author, no reference etc.
The haplogroups are VERY diverse. Almost ALL African HG are represented. Data does not seem right. I am wondering if we are being played. That's all.
This combination looks strange
OK T-M184 L0a OK E-M35 R0a
Interesting...it appears to support the Afro-asiatic myth.
.
beyoku's nervous, a 7 page thread is still continuing based on a rumor, try to use the lioness as scapegoat
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What are we talking about again? Results for Ancient remains or nonsense about the magreb for 2 year ago? Dont let trolls steer you down a rabbit hole on stupidity.
Have you seen my last post on the other page in this thread? What "West African" traditions mention a west to east migration?
I am just commenting on how yall folks let lioness run this forum. Yall chase after her like a dog chasing its tail. The most interesting article can be posted here and folks would fill the thread with off topic posts to Lioness with an attention span of a 3 year old. This thread is 7 pages long. Derailed on the first page and contains maybe 1 page of constructive comments.
Thanks for your comment. There's lioness and also swenet. But why don't we steer the discussion in another direction together. Maybe you can start by telling us what "West African traditions" mention an ancient west to east migration (possibly of E-M2 people). It is very interesting.
Maybe I shouldnt have used the word "Tradition". I am using the word tradition in the sense that the technology or genetic reference in question is "Traditionally" affiliated with West Africans. I was not using "Tradition" as in "Oral Tradition". E1b1a, Benin Hbs, West African TB, mtDNA L3e/d are traditionally seen as "West African". All of them could have an origins somewhere else but provide the opportunity for migration West to East.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What are we talking about again? Results for Ancient remains or nonsense about the magreb for 2 year ago? Dont let trolls steer you down a rabbit hole on stupidity.
Have you seen my last post on the other page in this thread? What "West African" traditions mention a west to east migration?
I am just commenting on how yall folks let lioness run this forum. Yall chase after her like a dog chasing its tail. The most interesting article can be posted here and folks would fill the thread with off topic posts to Lioness with an attention span of a 3 year old. This thread is 7 pages long. Derailed on the first page and contains maybe 1 page of constructive comments.
Thanks for your comment. There's lioness and also swenet. But why don't we steer the discussion in another direction together. Maybe you can start by telling us what "West African traditions" mention an ancient west to east migration (possibly of E-M2 people). It is very interesting.
Maybe I shouldnt have used the word "Tradition". I am using the word tradition in the sense that the technology or genetic reference in question is "Traditionally" affiliated with West Africans. I was not using "Tradition" as in "Oral Tradition". E1b1a, Benin Hbs, West African TB, mtDNA L3e/d are traditionally seen as "West African". All of them could have an origins somewhere else but provide the opportunity for migration West to East.
posted
It is cheaper now at 99 bucks. It is interesting to see where some of your direct ancestors fit into all of this.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't know how far back one wants to go but food plants originating in West Africa and found in NE and/or E Afr could indicate limited demic movement.
And yeah it'd be nice if threads stuck to their topic but you know and I know that's not ES' M.O.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
That's a question that's natural to ask with your track record, isn't it? You've been caught in the act of making things up several times, so you assume that if you're doing it, others must be, too.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:"Analysis of Predinastic skeletal material showed tropical African elements in the population of the earliest populations of the earliest Badarian culture" [...]
--Frank Yurco
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what if beyouku made the whole thing up, how could one tell?
While I don't believe this to be the case it's a fair question.
So will this be published anytime soon (this year, for instance)?
Not from the looks of it. See the political situation in Egypt. This is how it was produced in the first place because it was likely it would not be finished.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what if beyouku made the whole thing up, how could one tell?
While I don't believe this to be the case it's a fair question.
So will this be published anytime soon (this year, for instance)?
Not from the looks of it. See the political situation in Egypt. This is how it was produced in the first place because it was likely it would not be finished.
What is that suppose to mean? Doing aDNA cost a lot of money, time and effort and would bring much notoriety to those behind it. I doubt any scientists started something without the intention of finishing it off.
Does it involves only Egyptian researchers or researchers from other universities and countries?
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
I got to admit on that SNP discussion he got into my head a bit. he threw me for a loop. He talked a good game so I went back to the drawing board. Several good things came out of the encounter. One, I retraced my steps and came out stronger and two I took his advice and asked a question to a well known research Genetic Scientist. To be frank, I did not expect a response., but I did get one. I was playing around. In fact a few papers were sent to me. If she only I knew I was xyyman. I would be dropped like a hot potato. He! He! He!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what if beyouku made the whole thing up, how could one tell?
While I don't believe this to be the case it's a fair question.
So will this be published anytime soon (this year, for instance)?
Not from the looks of it. See the political situation in Egypt. This is how it was produced in the first place because it was likely it would not be finished.
What is that suppose to mean? Doing aDNA cost a lot of money, time and effort and would bring much notoriety to those behind it. I doubt any scientists started something without the intention of finishing it off.
Does it involves only Egyptian researchers or researchers from other universities and countries?
The data is coming directly from Africa(Egypt). I was hinted at it over a year ago and was told it was "surprisingly Equatorial". Based on the nomenclature used it could be old. It could be very old, Likely going back to the "E3b" days. They can sit on data for years on end for certain reasons. Case and point Hirbo et al (and Tishkoff Labs Data) The very giant "RECENT" study on Ethiopian/kenyan Y-dna/mtDNA was collected in 2002-2006. Published this years so nearly 10 years later.
xyyman - Care to share Here or PM? To comment its good to keep your internet profile free of too much drama so when they DO find out who you are they will NOT drop you.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Anyone familiar with the work of Prof. Woodward? He has mtDNA sequences of damn near the entire middle 18th dynasty. He has also sequenced several hundred mummies. Hawass et al are sitting on mountains of data--trust me. This wealth of unpublished data can explain why Hawass eventually buckled and switched his pitch from the Ancients were "not black" to "black, but not West African". Some citations:
quote:Usually thought to be the non-royal son of Queen-Mother Senseneb. Tuthmosis I followed Amenhotep I on the Throne. It is usually thought that Tuthmosis belonged to a collateral branch of the royal family and that Amenhotep I had no living sons to succeed him to the throne at the time of his death. It is quite interesting that DNA test conducted by Dr Scott Woodward would argue for Tuthmosis I being the natural son of Amenhotep I. A report mentions: " Thutmosis shares a particular allele with Amenhotep; conventional wisdom says they were not father and son but DNA evidence implies that they were."
quote:Egyptologists have struggled with the genealogy of New Kingdom (1570-1070 B.C.) pharaohs for more than a century. Many royal mummies from this period have been identified, either by modern scholars or 20th Dynasty priests who rescued some of them from the depredations of tomb robbers. But we cannot always trust these identifications. The incomplete historical record is exacerbated by the fact that royal brothers and sisters, and even fathers and daughters, intermarried. Uncertainty abounds: How was a particular pharaoh related to his successor? Which of a pharaoh's wives was the mother of his heir? There are also many unidentified mummies. Could one of them be Hatshepsut or Akhenaten? Were the two fetuses found in Tutankhamun's tomb carried by his wife Ankhensenpaaten? Since 1993 microbiologist Scott Woodward has been analyzing DNA from the mummified remains of these pharaohs and queens, in cooperation with Nasry Iskander, chief curator of the royal mummies at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.
quote:Back in 1993-94Professor Scott Woodward, a microbiologist from Brigham Young University (USA) was asked to demonstrate the usefulness of DNA, testing on six mummies from the Old Kingdom period, with the aim of providing clues to their sexing and possible genealogies. Woodward was able to determine that two of the mummies had been [accidentally?] placed inside the wrong coffins.
quote:Following his success, Woodward was invited to the Cairo Museum sometime during the mid 90’s to examine and harvest tissue samples from 27 royal mummies from the New Kingdom Period, during their removal to a new display room.From the 27 mummies, only 7 yielded successful DNA sequences. However, from his results he was able to determine that Ahmose I had married his full sister Seknet-re and that Amenhotep I's mtDNA was different from Ahmose I, making it highly likely that Ahmose – Nefertari was in actual fact Amenhotep I's mother.
quote:There are reports that Scott Woodward also succesfully extracted DNA from Yuya, whom some identify as the Biblical Josepth. There are suspicions that it was these links which caused the project to be abandoned fairly abruptly. It will be interesting to see what is published in the next few months by Dr Hawass but having investigated some of this may be corroboration of earlier findings rather then groundbreaking news. It will be interesting to see whether the work of Professor Woodward is credited.
quote:Egyptian authorities said Wednesday that a mummy found a century ago has been identified as the remains of pharaoh Queen Hatshepsut, who ruled over Egypt during the 15th century B.C.
[...]
DNA bone samples taken from the mummy's pelvic bone and femur are being compared to the mummy of Queen Hatshepsut's grandmother, Amos Nefreteri, said Egyptian molecular geneticist Yehia Zakaria Gad, who was part of Hawass' team.
quote:n 1999, Scott Woodward (http://molecular- genealogy.byu.edu/group.htm) of Brigham Young University was featured in a Discovery Channel special. This documentary was also titled "Secrets of the Pharaohs." Dr. Woodward was identified as the first scientist to successfully extract DNA from a dinosaur bone. He also claimed that he had been granted the "exclusive right to sample the pharaohs." This included 27 royal mummies of the New Kingdom and 500 other mummies from the Cairo Museum. According to Woodward, analysis of mummies spanning an 8-generation period in the 18th Dynasty revealed a "very narrow gene pool," and that there was no intermarriage outside of the royal family. Woodward stated, "already we have tremendous amount of information about the pharaohs of ancient Egypt." Because of the successful analysis of the two fetuses from the tomb of King Tut, he conveyed great confidence in the documentary that he would be able to "reconstruct the entire genealogy of the 18th Dynasty."
[...]
Scott Woodward wrote an article for Archaeology magazine in 1996. The abstract is published on the Archaeology magazine website (www.he.net/~archaeol/index.html) Click on the navigation bar under "Back Issues" and then look for the Sept/Oct '96 Issue. The feature is under "The Great DNA Hunt." Woodward's abstract is at the very bottom of that page. Woodward's 1996 article stated that he only expected to be able to analyze mitochondrial DNA. However, the Rosicrucian Museum page indicated that he had sequenced nuclear DNA for three pharaohs, viz., Tao II, Amenhotep II, and Thutmose IV. In an E-mail correspondence, Scott Woodward also mentioned that he had analyzed DNA from the mummy of Yuya, whom Ahmed Osman has identified as the Biblical Joseph.
Of course, this all doesn't prove that the results posted here are authentic; what it shows is that its not unusual for researcher to sit on their data, especially over protective Egypt. Their data might even be primarily intended for internal use, rather than public. We may never get to see these results, and you can bet they have been circulating in the hands of a few chosen scientists. I'm not even counting on the data in the OP to come out; I see them as a preview. They may come out or might not. Pusch and Zink have already stated in 2011 and more recently that they're committed to testing more mummies with next-gen sequencing techniques in the short term, so we'll just have to wait. Also, future samples will validate whether these haplogroups are credible, just like the modern affinities of the Ramses III autosomal data retrospectively validated the 2010 results.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Great post Swenet and Beyoku. I give you props on that one! Indeed they sit on data for many years. Especially it it does fit their hypothesis. Case in point Barbujani et al and ancient Crete. They sat on the "southern" connection for years which ruled out Anatolia.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
@Beyoku. The 2 she sent I had already, although difficult to find. The one I really wanted needed English translation....which she apologized for.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Beyoku. The 2 she sent I had already, although difficult to find. The one I really wanted needed English translation....which she apologized for.
I guess I am asking what where the articles and how did her insight add any value to them or this topic? If you cannot discuss it in public send a PM. Sometimes folks in the field can add additional value particularly when they make a comment and reference unpublished sources.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what if beyouku made the whole thing up, how could one tell?
While I don't believe this to be the case it's a fair question.
So will this be published anytime soon (this year, for instance)?
Not from the looks of it. See the political situation in Egypt. This is how it was produced in the first place because it was likely it would not be finished.
What is that suppose to mean? Doing aDNA cost a lot of money, time and effort and would bring much notoriety to those behind it. I doubt any scientists started something without the intention of finishing it off.
Does it involves only Egyptian researchers or researchers from other universities and countries?
The data is coming directly from Africa(Egypt). I was hinted at it over a year ago and was told it was "surprisingly Equatorial". Based on the nomenclature used it could be old. It could be very old, Likely going back to the "E3b" days. They can sit on data for years on end for certain reasons. Case and point Hirbo et al (and Tishkoff Labs Data) The very giant "RECENT" study on Ethiopian/kenyan Y-dna/mtDNA was collected in 2002-2006. Published this years so nearly 10 years later.
Of course, I know what is going in in Egypt, it's not Syria or Libya but it is in crisis, but if the study involve scientists from other countries and they already have collected and sequence the data, there's not much to do for them beside writing the report. Even if you got a few examples showing us long delay, I still doubt scientists don't want to be published and the study seems advanced enough so that money is not a problem anyway. Good, and worrying point, about the nomenclature. Hopefully, it gets published sooner rather than later. Outside this forum circles,it's hard to talk about haplogroup aDNA results which are not published yet. IMO, like in Mesopotamia, aDNA research should be extended to Ancient Egypt, Kush, the Sahara and Africa. I won't lie, I'm a big fan of those.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: This wealth of unpublished data can explain why Hawass eventually buckled and switched his pitch from the Ancients were "not black" to "black, but not West African". Some citations:
When did Hawass say that? (contradicted by DNA Tribes/JAMA and that study posted by Beyoku, considering that the genetic structure is different in modern West Africa than in Ancient Egypt times). I never heard him admitting they were black.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: This wealth of unpublished data can explain why Hawass eventually buckled and switched his pitch from the Ancients were "not black" to "black, but not West African". Some citations:
When did Hawass say that? (contradicted by DNA Tribes/JAMA and that study posted by Beyoku, considering that the genetic structure is different in modern West Africa than in Ancient Egypt times). I never heard him admitting they were black.
I heard him say this as well.
I forgot the source. But he did say it, about 5-years ago.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
deleted
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I heard him say this as well. I forgot the source. But he did say it, about 5-years ago.
Don't know what he said exactly, nor the context, so it's only hearsay for me. I have hard time to believe he would say that Ancient Egyptians were black (African) in any real manner, maybe he was speaking of the color of the soil or the mummy or something. I forgot to mention the Ramses III/BMJ study of course (with Ramses III and Unknown man E determined to be of the E1b1a (E-M2) haplogroup).
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posted
Amun-Ra, you believe that because of the DNATribes report on the Amarna that the ancient Egyptians looked indistinguishanle from the average African Ameican in the sense that if you mixed the average black South African (primarily bantu) and Great Lakes people and West Africans the result on average is a dark skinned person wiith afro hair, full lips, a broad flat nose, and prognothis. In other words what the old racialists called a true Negro.
If that is the case and there is Egyptian art including Pharoahs which does show this why is there also plenty of Egyptian art including Pharoahs all throughout the dyansties which also shows dark skin but thinner featured, without prognothis, hair that is not afro type, some might say more smiliar to some parts of the Ethiopia or Somali peoples?
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I heard him say this as well. I forgot the source. But he did say it, about 5-years ago.
Don't know what he said exactly, nor the context, so it's only hearsay for me. I have hard time to believe he would say that Ancient Egyptians were black (African) in any real manner, maybe he was speaking of the color of the soil or the mummy or something. I forgot to mention the Ramses III/BMJ study of course (with Ramses III and Unknown man E determined to be of the E1b1a (E-M2) haplogroup).
He used these words, pointed out by Swenet, as I cite:
"black, but not West African".
It probably will somewhere on youtube.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Amun-Ra, you believe that because of the DNATribes report on the Amarna that the ancient Egyptians looked indistinguishanle from the average African Ameican in the sense that if you mixed the average black South African (primarily bantu) and Great Lakes people and West Africans the result on average is a dark skinned person wiith afro hair, full lips, a broad flat nose, and prognothis. In other words what the old racialists called a true Negro.
If that is the case and there is Egyptian art including Pharoahs which does show this why is there also plenty of Egyptian art including Pharoahs all throughout the dyansties which also shows dark skin but thinner featured, without prognothis, hair that is not afro type, some might say more smiliar to some parts of the Ethiopia or Somali peoples?
Again we see pseudo babble b.s. Based on racialist Eurocentric stereotyping.
Everything you've projected here has been disputed and debunked throughout the years.
All your attempts have failed. You've been ridiculed and made look like a fool, time and time again!
posted
Beyoku, what happened to forumbiodiversity? I can't seem to access it.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ tries to speak for Amun Ra and follows me wherever I go
I don't try, I actually speak/ wrote towards. Don't get it twisted euronut!
You are a repetitive delusional euronut, everyone knows it.
Ancient Egyptians represented multiple ethnic groups for Africa. This is the main source.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Amun-Ra, you believe that because of the DNATribes report on the Amarna that the ancient Egyptians looked indistinguishanle from the average African Ameican in the sense that if you mixed the average black South African (primarily bantu) and Great Lakes people and West Africans the result on average is a dark skinned person wiith afro hair, full lips, a broad flat nose, and prognothis. In other words what the old racialists called a true Negro.
If that is the case and there is Egyptian art including Pharoahs which does show this why is there also plenty of Egyptian art including Pharoahs all throughout the dyansties which also shows dark skin but thinner featured, without prognothis, hair that is not afro type, some might say more smiliar to some parts of the Ethiopia or Somali peoples?
I don't know what you're talking about but I don't use only DNA Tribes/Jama. I said it a couples of time already, on the genetic side, I based my analysis mainly on.
1) DNA Tribes/Jama 18th Dynasty Royal Mummies 2) DNA Tribes/BMJ 20th Dynasty Royal Mummies 3) BMJ Ramses III E1b1a/E-M2 4) The study preview posted by Beyoku (especially in this thread).
A straight analysis of those results determine directly the modern populations most genetically similar to Ancient Egyptians. I guess, we can always twist it, tamper it, try to make it means something else, etc, but the interpretation is straightforward. The proof is already done for me.
I believe Ancient Egyptians were composed of a mix of African lineages (who settled along the Nile during the dessication of the Sahara and unified under one empire by Narmer). If the beyoku preview study is accurate and representative, then it gives the overall idea I got as we can see a mix of haplogroup Y-DNA and MtDNA lineages (mostly African haplogroups). Physically, they will look like a mix of African lineages too (like most modern African nations for that matter).
I don't think Ancient Egyptian art figures are meant to be a true physical representation of someone. For example, some pharaohs have art images that doesn't even look like one another. Same person, different appearance. Same for the Medu Neter (hieroglyph) for the word for the sound/word 'face' which display different features.
Medu Neter for face or 'hr', 18th Dynasty
Hr or face in Medu Neter 18th Dynasty
Medu Neter for face or 'hr', 18th Dynasty
Medu Neter for face or 'hr', 18th Dynasty
Chapel of the Tomb of Akhethotep, 5th Dynasty
So how does the Ancient Egyptians looked like? My answer: Like a mix of African people and lineages.
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posted
^The above is in agreement with anthropological data.
quote: "African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. The peoples of the Nile Valley vary but they are still related. The people most related ethnically to the ancient Egyptians are other Africans like Nubians not cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics.
(Keita 1996; Rethelford, 2001; Bianchi 2004, Yurco 1989; Godde 2009)
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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So how does the Ancient Egyptians looked like? My answer: Like a mix of African people and lineages. [/QB]
Well the region around Lake Victoria would include a more Eastern part of the Mix, Great Lakes region
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posted
Am J Orthod Dentofacial Orthop. 2000 Jan;117(1):10-4. Dental and skeletal findings on an ancient Egyptian mummy. Thekkaniyil JK, Bishara SE, James MA.
quote: The dentofacial structures of an ancient Egyptian mummy were radiographically evaluated from available computer tomographic scans. The cephalometric measurements obtained were compared to those available on ancient Egyptian Pharaohs as well as to modern cephalometric standards for adult males. The measurements on "Lady" Udja were closely related to both sets of cephalometric standards. The dental findings include: noticeable generalized attrition of the dentition, extracted lower first molar, and impacted maxillary third molars.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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why do Horn Africans, closer to Egypt than South Africa, Great Lakes and West Africa have a significantly lower MLI scores?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Beyoku, what happened to forumbiodiversity? I can't seem to access it.
Seems to be more than just things not working from my end. I type in the forum name in Google and it ranks at the bottom of the page. How can an established forum, with no similar named competitors, not rank high for its own domain name?
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why do Horn Africans, closer to Egypt than South Africa, Great Lakes and West Africa have a significantly lower MLI scores?
Frankly it's not a big secret, it's a good question but we've already been over that a couples of times.
The question we must always ask about any populations in modern Egypt, modern Africa or modern Whatever is how representative are they of the population that was there 5000 years ago. Even Southern Africa was largely uninhabited compared to now, in fact, same for West Africa. So where the people who now inhabit Southern Africa and West Africa were 5000 years ago? Probably somewhere between Eastern Africa, their place of genetic and linguistic origin, and where they are now.
The reason why Horn Africa doesn't match Ancient Egyptians aDNA very much is because they used, rightly or wrongly, Horn Africans very much admixed for their study. Those Horn Africans samples have a great genetic distance between them and other Africans (personally I don't think that level of admixture is representative of the average Horn Africans). Both fact can be seen in their global study (STR) for 2010-2012. And as you know, the closer you are to other Africans the closer you are to Ancient Egyptians.
This is from the 2010-2012 DNA Tribes document (used in the study of aDNA):
Here below you can see that their Horn Africans sample have a lot of foreign admixture. The red bar is small. Making them (the Horn Africans samples used by DNA Tribes) more genetically distant to other African populations:
Here below on this eucledian distance tree, we can see that indeed their Horn Africans samples are genetically distant to other African populations and closer to Eurasian (which don't match STR aDNA of Ancient Egyptians mummies):
So again, this is a straightforward analysis. The modern Horn Africans samples used in the DNA Tribes study are more Eurasian than African, so they are further away from other Africans including Ancient Egyptians.
Personally, I think other Kemetian mummies aDNA could match similar regions as well as other regions of Africa (with limited admixed samples, of course, which dilute their proportion of Africans, thus Ancient Egyptians, DNA in their genome). It depends on which specific mummies are selected for aDNA analysis.
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Biodiversity is down...may be down for the count. That is what happens when you talk **** with a hacker that is smarter than you and loose the fight.
A hacker would hack the site since last year, the admin would fix it and then talk ****. Of course the hacker re-hacks or just goes back and gets bigger better hackers.
On another note can we NOT chase around the thread hijacking off topic attention whore? DONT REPLY TO NONSENSE.Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Biodiversity is down...may be down for the count. That is what happens when you talk **** with a hacker that is smarter than you and loose the fight.
A hacker would hack the site since last year, the admin would fix it and then talk ****. Of course the hacker re-hacks or just goes back and gets bigger better hackers.
On another note can we NOT chase around the thread hijacking off topic attention whore? DONT REPLY TO NONSENSE.
It appears there is this database error.
The cause for this problem could be many things.
"The ForumBiodiversity.com » Anthropology Biodiversity Forum (ABF) database has encountered a problem."
But apparently dns1.name-services and dns4.name-services are down.
code:
forumbiodiversity.com 3600 dns1.name-services.com DOWN
forumbiodiversity.com 3600 dns4.name-services.com DOWN
COMMON SERVER ERRORS
Domain Namehide Expired domain name, bad DNS configuration or client side (web browser or ISP) DNS Cache settings could cause a problem.
Server Errorhide As with any computer, the smallest software or hardware failure on the web server may result in website outage.
Misconfigurationhide An 5xx ERROR message is displayed (500 Internal Error is the most common) in case of bad server configuration.
Hosting Failurehide Hosting companies have problems too. 99.9% uptime means, there is ~9 hours of downtime in a year.
Otherhide From (common) unpaid bills to an unfortunate natural disaster (cut wires), there are plenty of reasons why is forumbiodiversity down right now.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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