posted
All add further in Laymen's terms for people who might not understand what was said prior All three abstracts in the OP works in corroboration with previously reported data. Natufians were on the receiving end of an African component which peaked in East African populations. The Iberomaurasian also received this admixture likely acquiring E-m78. This African ancestor was likely a Mesolithic Egyptian forager/gather based on the center of their ancestry distribution. As you can see in the graphs posted this component follows the distribution of African related ancestry in doug's post and is high in all Egyptian samples ancient and modern. See it's distribution in Yemeni samples for example.
Furthermore in relation to Takarkori... We can all get the idea that there was a bit of diversity in Saharan/North African populations now. Modern central Saharan populations have a higher chance of showing relict components distantly related to North African components (Natufian/Iberomaurasian), This is because they've receive less admixture from further African populations than both the Eastern Nilotic populations and the Western African populations. This very phenomena has been hinted at timelessly through archaeology.
The Mechtoid traits which grouped Gobero with Iberomaurasians weren't good signal of relatedness by descent and were even thought to be superficial by some researchers. Capsians & Iberomaurasians and to a lesser extent even A group Nubians can be grouped together while, Hassi el Abiod and their likely descendants at Kobadi, Gobero and Takartori can be group with other Africans. Now with some cracks opening up due to genetics we can see that the Iberomaurasians homogenized further grouping them with other "Iberomaurasians" eastern Oranian", Capsians and A group Nubians because they all had specific North African ancestry. The other Saharans were related but might not have received this ancestry until more recent times which in then was possibly attached to legit Eurasian ancestry.
Posts: 1785 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: There's actually a lot going on with these leaks
The main "controversy" so to speak is that Basically someone leaked some o the results which has a significant amount of genetic lineage called CHG, and further this was from OK samples from Upper Egypt.
This basically means that the OK A. Egyptians were more "Eurasian" than Modern Egyptians..This is seen in the images posted by Nassa, someone(The Miro C dude?) put some of the samples into a program that showed 0 SSA who are modeled as Yoruba in that image.
People are spinning this is different ways, some like Antalas and Miro are advocating for Dynastic Race and celebrating it as a way to own Hoteps.
Others like Maestro and Swenet and Brandon are pointing out the predynastic samples that morphologically group with SSA, meaning these sample are not representative of all A. Egyptian or at least the whole picture is not being told as neatly as folks like Miro C are implying.
Also funny with this Miro dude(I know Maestro does'nt want this thread to be about him but I think its relevant.)
This dude is spamming images of subject/defeated NHSY as a way to own "Hoteps" claiming these are the way A.Egyptians treated SSAs....after admiting that these same NHSY(Who are North Africans not SSA btw) had lower amounts of SSA, and even in the leaked image the NUB samples Eurasian ancestry is similar to A. Egyptians.
Naw this dude isn't biased, he isnt using same old tired tolken Nubians are Kakazoid in one breath then Abid slaves in the Next...
Like you really hate Hoteps so much you have to lie, obfuscate and misrepresnt A. Egyptian history and A.Egyptian/NHSY relations to make your argument, and at that point, aren't you no better than the Hoteps? Yet Hoteps remain the token devil in the Biodiversity Totem Pole..
Edit: I also wanted to point out that the leaks had OK with "Dark Skin" and E1b1b was found in significant numbers...Make of that what you will I guess..
Whatever, IDK, you can probably get a better breakdown from other Members like Lostranger or Brandon
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Can anyone sum up that leak in simple layman's terms?
Thank you... yes the old dynastic race theory has returned but of course, and yes Miro's racism is relevant to this thread if you are going to use interpretation of " leaks "
Both Samuel Mortons one of the early figures of scientific racism, he argued against monogenism, the single creation story of the Bible, instead supporting polygenism, a theory of multiple racial creations. Petrie were two of the founders of Scientific racism
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2730 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Can anyone sum up that leak in simple layman's terms?
[/qb][/QUOTE]Basically it is just the same old game of trickling out limited genetic data from the Nile Valley in order to try and support a narrative as long as possible. And some people in the online community are so desperate for data they will jump on "leaks" (whatever that means), just to have something to talk about. Because the scientific community is obviously dragging their feet DNA testing the various cemeteries from various time frames and regions that they have across the region.
@Doug
This exactly! These are politically managed releases and studies. limited to extract the data they want put forward.
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posted
A video by YouTuber Egyptologis7 about the abstract. In the video she also discusses the Abusir study. She criticizes some YouTubers like "The Kings Monologue", "Asar Imhotep" and "Mr Imhotep" and she also mentions Clyde Winters.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A video by YouTuber Egyptologis7 about the abstract. In the video she also discusses the Abusir study. She criticizes some YouTubers like "The Kings Monologue", "Asar Imhotep" and "Mr Imhotep" and she also mentions Clyde Winters.
Egyptologist 7 formerly Phoenician7 is very biased as to deny no African influence in Ancient Egypt, very one-sided and her former name suggest the Levantine bias
.
.
Based on just one location site Schuenemann made broad based conclusion: "Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times." Hawass, up to this point seems not to publish articles with that extent of presumption.
The study was of 90 mummies all at the same location. All but a few were late period. All 90 of the mummies were tested for maternal mitochondrial DNA except for 3 which also had paternal YDNA results (as above) and these 3 were all late period (as we see on the chart)
Thus it is not fair at all for Schuenemann et al to make that broad sweeping statements (and likewise her co-authors which included the well known geneticists Wolfgang Haak and Johannes Krause)
So now we have a new unpublished article upcoming and they may make similar presumptions, so we are on wait and see at this point until they release the hard data
Posts: 43042 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A video by YouTuber Egyptologis7 about the abstract. In the video she also discusses the Abusir study. She criticizes some YouTubers like "The Kings Monologue", "Asar Imhotep" and "Mr Imhotep" and she also mentions Clyde Winters.
And what relevance do those other people especially Clyde Winters of all people have to do with this thread? Stay on topic. And when I mean topic I mean actual academia material.
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posted
The video talks about the new abstract and quotes from it as well as has quotes from two different Egyptsearch members as well as other videos that are influential on youtube with high view counts relative to the topic. I don't think it should not be referred to even if I disagree with it.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A video by YouTuber Egyptologis7 about the abstract. In the video she also discusses the Abusir study. She criticizes some YouTubers like "The Kings Monologue", "Asar Imhotep" and "Mr Imhotep" and she also mentions Clyde Winters.
And what relevance do those other people especially Clyde Winters of all people have to do with this thread? Stay on topic. And when I mean topic I mean actual academia material.
Word. We already have enough whiny threads about individual youtubers. They need to keep that social commentary and youtuber popularity contest in the respective threads which are already too many and repetitive as it is.
(Not a request for moderation, just expressing agreement that some people don't want to see that type of content follow them in academic threads).
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A video by YouTuber Egyptologis7 about the abstract. In the video she also discusses the Abusir study. She criticizes some YouTubers like "The Kings Monologue", "Asar Imhotep" and "Mr Imhotep" and she also mentions Clyde Winters.
And what relevance do those other people especially Clyde Winters of all people have to do with this thread? Stay on topic. And when I mean topic I mean actual academia material.
Word. We already have enough whiny threads about individual youtubers. They need to keep that social commentary and youtuber popularity contest in the respective threads which are already too many and repetitive as it is.
(Not a request for moderation, just expressing agreement that some people don't want to see that type of content follow them in academic threads).
I'm thinking about making a big thread for all of that. Or moving them all to the Deshret section.
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ABSTRACT HGP-023 Genetic study of ancient Egyptian human remains dating from the Predynastic Period to the early Islamic Period (ca. 4000 cal. BCE - 800 cal. CE)
Speaker: Alexandra Mussauer Eurac Research - Institute for Mummy Studies, Italy; Ludwig Maximilian University Munich, Germany Co-authors: Christina Wurst1,2, Alice Paladin1, Valentina Coia1, Frank Maixner1, Albert Zink
1 Eurac Research - Institute for Mummy Studies, Italy
2 Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, Germany
Abstract: Due to high-throughput sequencing and targeted enrichment methods, ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis is emerging as a valuable tool for the investigation of ancient Egypt’s demographic history. However, the recovery of aDNA from Egyptian human remains is challenging due to poor DNA preservation and a high contamination risk. Thus, so far, less than five ancient Egyptian genome-wide datasets have been published. In addition, mitochondrial genomes are almost exclusively limited to a timespan ranging from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period (1550 BCE - 395 CE) as well as to a single archaeological site (Abusir el-Meleq). To extend the pool of ancient Egyptian genome datasets, both mitochondrial and genome-wide, we report the results of a genetic study of 100 ancient Egyptian human remains. Overall, these individuals exhibit an endogenous human DNA content between 0.01% and 40.84%. Using an enrichment capture targeting the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA),
we were able to reconstruct complete mitogenomes for 25 individuals
>> dating from the Predynastic Period to the Coptic Period (ca. 3500 cal. BCE - 650 cal. CE) and encompassing the archaeological sites of Asyut, Akhmim, Deir el-Bahari, Deir el-Medina, Thebes, the Valley of the Queens, and Gebelein. These genomes exhibit a mtDNA haplogroup diversity similar to ancient Egyptian haplogroup profiles published by Schuenemann, et al. Nat. Comm. 2017. This provides further evidence for shared maternal ancestries between western Eurasian or northern African populations and ancient Egyptians during and after the New Kingdom. In addition, we also found western Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in individuals dated to periods prior to the New Kingdom.
Furthermore, we performed a whole-genome enrichment capture on seven individuals to test these findings also on a genome-wide scale.
Overall, this study provides further insights into the demographic history of ancient Egyptians considering a broader geographical context and the older periods of Egypt’s past.
(bolded added)
Speaker: Alexandra Mussauer Eurac Research PhD Student Institute for Mummy Studies Bolzano, South Tyrol, Northern Italy
ALBERT ZINK Eurac Research Head of Institute Institute for Mummy Studies Bolzano, South Tyrol, Northern Italy
Dr. Albert Zink received his PhD (1998) at the University of Munich, where he also finished his habilitation (Assistant Professor) in 2005. He is director of the Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy. His major scientific interest is the evolution of infectious diseases and the impact of diseases on historic populations and their development. He is currently president of the Society of Anthropologists in Germany.
____________________________________
2023 High-coverage genome of the Tyrolean Iceman reveals unusually high Anatolian farmer ancestry
Ke Wang,1,2,3 Kay Prüfer,2 Ben Krause-Kyora,4 Ainash Childebayeva,2 Verena J. Schuenemann,5,6,7 Valentina Coia,8 Frank Maixner,8 Albert Zink,8,∗ Stephan Schiffels,2 and Johannes Krause2,9, ___________________
May 2017 Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
Verena J. Schuenemann, et al.
Estimating phenotypes Finally, we analysed several functionally relevant SNPs in sample JK2911, which had low contamination and relatively high coverage. This individual had a derived allele at the SLC24A5 locus, which contributes to lighter skin pigmentation and was shown to be at high frequency in Neolithic Anatolia
___________________
February 17, 2010 Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family
Zahi Hawass, PhD; Yehia Z. Gad, MD; Somaia Ismail, PhD; Rabab Khairat, MSc; Dina Fathalla, MSc; Naglaa Hasan, MSc; Amal Ahmed, BPharm; Hisham Elleithy, MA; Markus Ball, MSc; Fawzi Gaballah, PhD; Sally Wasef, MSc; Mohamed Fateen, MD; Hany Amer, PhD; Paul Gostner, MD; Ashraf Selim, MD; Albert Zink, PhD; Carsten M. Pusch, PhD
Eurac Research is a private research center headquartered in Bolzano, South Tyrol. The center has eleven institutes and five centers. Eurac Research has more than 800 partners spread across 56 countries. Core funding is provided by the autonomous province of South Tyrol, with additional financing coming from membership fees and European project funds.[3]
Institutes and Center
Institute for Minority Rights Institute for Public Management Institute for Comparative Federalism Institute for Applied Linguistics Institute for Alpine Environment Institute for Earth Observation Institute for Regional Development Institute for Renewable Energy Institute for Biomedicine Institute of Mountain Emergency Medicine Institute for Mummy Studies Center for Advanced Studies Center for Sensing Solutions Center for Mountain Safegard Research Center for Autonomy terraXcube
________________________________
Eurac Research Headquarters
Bolzano's Viale Druso. The historic building in which our research center has one of its headquarters was renovated in 1995 and supplemented with modern elements.
The "Ex-GIL" Building The historical part of the complex was built between 1934 and 1936 by order of the fascist regime for the female fascist youth known at the time as GIL (Gioventù Italiana del Littorio). Francesco Mansutti and Gino Miozzo were the original architects, and both came from Padua. At the time the site included classrooms, lecture halls, and a gym. The architecture of the building sections and the directly adjacent Druso Bridge reveals the clean lines of “Razionalismo” as well as influences of the opulent “Stile Imperiale”, which referenced buildings of the ancient Roman Empire. After the end of fascism, the former GIL building (“Ex-GIL” as it was called) became a stone monument to a time that was never to return. Over the years the building housed a supermarket, cinema, various storage and commercial spaces, bookbinders, and an animal shelter. Over time it fell into disrepair. An international architectural competition launched in 1995 finally saved the complex from collapse. The winning design was by Klaus Kada, an architect from Graz whose project juxtaposed the listed building with modern architecture. Through elaborate technical procedures, the building retained its old facades and its original coat of Pompeian red paint. Additions of glass, concrete and steel complement the structure. Bridges connect the individual parts of the building and in this way reflect not only the coexistence of old and new but also a liberal shift from the building’s repressive history. ___________________________
When conflict is written in stone: Fascist legacy in South Tyrol Alessia Setti 01 March 2021
In summer 2020, protests originating in the United States against police brutality and racism soon spread to Europe and the debate about the legacy of monuments and statues commemorating controversial historical personalities re-emerged. However, there is a place in Europe that for a long time has already been dealing with this issue. Indeed, Italy’s Autonomous Province of Bolzano/South Tyrol still hosts some remnants of the Fascist regime. What is South Tyrol’s approach and, above all, how do South Tyroleans make use of that historical period?
Remove, preserve, or neutralise? A South Tyrolean trilemma...
If no consensus can be reached on the future of these monuments, however, one aspect certainly gets everyone to agree: Fascist monuments are still an open wound for most South Tyroleans.
______________________________
^^a Eurac blog article discussing the controversy over re-use of buildings dating back to Italian fascism yet does not mention the very institution she is writing for is headquartered in one of these building. I do see Eurac has on their long list of "Institutes" an Institute for Minority Rights, for whatever that's worth, I haven't looked into it
Albert Zink who is probably the mentor or senior advisor to of the young researcher Alexandra Mussauer's upcoming article on the Egyptian mummies (he's a co-author) I notice the connections here with Zink. He has been co-author in articles both with Hawass (Egypt) and Schuenemann (Germany)
So there seems some connection between the German and Egyptian researchers (although this institute is in Italy ) and this connection despite Hawass' not liking how Germany has not returned the Nefertiti bust and other artifacts (although one could distinguish between the German government and private research companies in Germany)
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I Cant find any of these anywhere, but I did find this:
quote: Four thousand years of maternal ancestry in ancient Egypt illuminated by MITOCHONDRIAL genome sequencing
10th World Congress on Mummy Studies (Bolzano, 05/09/2022 - 09/09/2022) 2022
Mussauer, Alexandra(Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Wurst, Christina (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Paladin, Alice (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Coia, Valentina (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Maixner, Frank (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Helmbold- Doyé, Jana (Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Staatliche Museen zu Berlin, Berlin, Germany); Del Vesco, Paolo (Museo Egizio, Fondazione Museo delle Antichità Egizie di Torino, Turin, Italy); Rosendahl, Wilfried (Reiss-Engelhorn-Museen Mannheim, Mannheim, Germany); Zink, Albert (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy);
During the last decade, the population genetic history of ancient Egypt has been illuminated by an increasing number of genetic studies on ancient Egyptian human remains from different time periods utilizing high-throughput sequencing methods. Nonetheless, mitochondrial genomes representative of the Egyptian population prior to the New Kingdom (1550 - 1069 BC) are still scarce. Therefore, in this study, we analyzed samples taken from 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals housed in the collections of the Museo Egizio of Turin and the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. These individuals have been recovered from different archaeological sites in Egypt and encompass a timeframe ranging from about 4000 BC to AD 800. All samples were analyzed using next- generation sequencing methods, including mitochondrial DNA enrichments. Following the application of criteria for authenticity and quality control, we were able to reconstruct 34 mitochondrial genomes of ancient Egyptian individuals, predominantly from southern Egypt, that have been dated from the Predynastic to the Byzantine Period (3600 BC - AD 650). Our data supports the presence of western Eurasian and northeastern African mitochondrial haplogroups in Egypt throughout antiquity. Furthermore, the mitochondrial genomes extend the pool of available datasets, adding novel information for the older periods of Egypt’s past as well as for a broader geographical context. Thereby, this study constitutes another important step for the reconstruction of Egypt’s genetic history, which in the future could be further investigated by genome-wide studies.
From an organization I haven't heard of before, the Eurac Instute of Mummy Studies:
quote: Snapshots of the past times that help us to gain unique insights into our present. By studying skeletons and mummies from all over the world and from different historical periods, we gain knowledge on population history, the development of pathogens and the preservation of archaeological finds.
(^ bolded added ) As Brandon pointed out earlier this conference presentation from 2022 is probably the same analysis at the top of this post, the other conference of 2023 ABSTRACT HGP-023 Genetic study of ancient Egyptian human remains dating from the Predynastic Period to the early Islamic Period (ca. 4000 cal. BCE - 800 cal. CE)
Project duration: January 2017 - December 2023
______________________________________
^ So at this point they started with 99 mummies and the study was mitochondrial DNA but at top in what mightywolf quoted in the OP they added 7 of these individuals Y-DNA also:
(from top of this post)
a genetic study of 100 ancient Egyptian human remains. Overall, these individuals exhibit an endogenous human DNA content between 0.01% and 40.84%. Using an enrichment capture targeting the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA),
we were able to reconstruct complete mitogenomes for 25 individuals
>> dating from the Predynastic Period to the Coptic Period (ca. 3500 cal. BCE - 650 cal. CE)
Furthermore, we performed a whole-genome enrichment capture on seven individuals to test these findings also on a genome-wide scale.
I hade overlooked this earlier when I was asking where the number 7 came from, it was there all along
Posts: 43042 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A video by YouTuber Egyptologis7 about the abstract. In the video she also discusses the Abusir study. She criticizes some YouTubers like "The Kings Monologue", "Asar Imhotep" and "Mr Imhotep" and she also mentions Clyde Winters.
And what relevance do those other people especially Clyde Winters of all people have to do with this thread? Stay on topic. And when I mean topic I mean actual academia material.
Word. We already have enough whiny threads about individual youtubers. They need to keep that social commentary and youtuber popularity contest in the respective threads which are already too many and repetitive as it is.
(Not a request for moderation, just expressing agreement that some people don't want to see that type of content follow them in academic threads).
I'm thinking about making a big thread for all of that. Or moving them all to the Deshret section.
I hope I did not influence that. I'd hate to be the whistle/whisper in ear guy. As long as I have a choice in not having to see the archaeologist insert his 'smart Nora & smart friends of Egypt' vs 'dumb youtubers who never visited Egypt'.
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I hope I did not influence that. I'd hate to be the whistle/whisper in ear guy. As long as I have a choice in not having to see the archaeologist insert his 'smart Nora & smart friends of Egypt' vs 'dumb youtubers who never visited Egypt'.
Imhotep was the governor of the city (in Thebes), a judge and a vizier under Thutmose I. He was also said to be a tutor to the sons of the king.[1]
QV46 Imhotep was buried in tomb QV 46 in the Valley of the Queens. The tomb was discovered by Ernesto Schiaparelli during an expedition which took place between 1903 and 1905. The tomb is a simple shaft with a single chamber that contained the burial. During the excavations his mummy was recovered along with funerary goods.[1] The finds included coffin-fragments, a canopic jar inscribed with his name, and an alabaster oval plaque.[2] These objects are now in the Museo Egizio in Turin, as well as mummified ducks in boxes, wooden boxes, and baskets found in the tomb.[1]
Ostraca from the later Ramesside Period were recovered from near the tomb's entrance
Imhotep (vizier) 18th Dynasty, Museo Egizio, Torino (Turin)
ABSTRACT HGP-023 Genetic study of ancient Egyptian human remains dating from the Predynastic Period to the early Islamic Period (ca. 4000 cal. BCE - 800 cal. CE) Speaker: Alexandra Mussauer Eurac Research - Institute for Mummy Studies, Italy; Ludwig Maximilian University Munich, Germany Co-authors: Christina Wurst1,2, Alice Paladin1, Valentina Coia1, Frank Maixner1, Albert Zink1
1 Eurac Research - Institute for Mummy Studies, Italy 2 Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, Germany
Abstract: Due to high-throughput sequencing and targeted enrichment methods, ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis is emerging as a valuable tool for the investigation of ancient Egypt’s demographic history. However, the recovery of aDNA from Egyptian human remains is challenging due to poor DNA preservation and a high contamination risk. Thus, so far, less than five ancient Egyptian genome-wide datasets have been published. In addition, mitochondrial genomes are almost exclusively limited to a timespan ranging from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period (1550 BCE - 395 CE) as well as to a single archaeological site (Abusir el-Meleq). To extend the pool of ancient Egyptian genome datasets, both mitochondrial and genome-wide, we report the results of
a genetic study of 100 ancient Egyptian human remains.
Overall, these individuals exhibit an endogenous human DNA content between 0.01% and 40.84%. Using an enrichment capture targeting
the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we were able to reconstruct complete mitogenomes for 25 individuals
dating from the Predynastic Period to the Coptic Period (ca. 3500 cal. BCE - 650 cal. CE) and encompassing the archaeological sites of Asyut, Akhmim, Deir el-Bahari, Deir el-Medina, Thebes, the Valley of the Queens, and Gebelein. These genomes exhibit a mtDNA haplogroup diversity similar to ancient Egyptian haplogroup profiles published by Schuenemann, et al. Nat. Comm. 2017. This provides further evidence for shared maternal ancestries between western Eurasian or northern African populations and ancient Egyptians during and after the New Kingdom. In addition, we also found western Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in individuals dated to periods prior to the New Kingdom.
Furthermore, we performed a whole-genome enrichment capture on seven individuals to test these findings also on a genome-wide scale.
Overall, this study provides further insights into the demographic history of ancient Egyptians considering a broader geographical context and the older periods of Egypt’s past.
(bolded added)
I should have just read the abstract more carefully the first time.
And above they don't tell us what museums these mummies are from but below they do:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I Cant find any of these anywhere, but I did find this:
[QUOTE] Four thousand years of maternal ancestry in ancient Egypt illuminated by MITOCHONDRIAL genome sequencing
10th World Congress on Mummy Studies (Bolzano, 05/09/2022 - 09/09/2022) 2022
Mussauer, Alexandra(Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Wurst, Christina (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Paladin, Alice (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Coia, Valentina (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Maixner, Frank (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy); Helmbold- Doyé, Jana (Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Staatliche Museen zu Berlin, Berlin, Germany); Del Vesco, Paolo (Museo Egizio, Fondazione Museo delle Antichità Egizie di Torino, Turin, Italy); Rosendahl, Wilfried (Reiss-Engelhorn-Museen Mannheim, Mannheim, Germany); Zink, Albert (Institute for Mummy Studies, Eurac Research, Bolzano, Italy);
During the last decade, the population genetic history of ancient Egypt has been illuminated by an increasing number of genetic studies on ancient Egyptian human remains from different time periods utilizing high-throughput sequencing methods. Nonetheless, mitochondrial genomes representative of the Egyptian population prior to the New Kingdom (1550 - 1069 BC) are still scarce. Therefore, in this study, we analyzed samples taken from 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals housed in the collections of the Museo Egizio of Turin and the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. These individuals have been recovered from different archaeological sites in Egypt and encompass a timeframe ranging from about 4000 BC to AD 800. All samples were analyzed using next- generation sequencing methods, including mitochondrial DNA enrichments. Following the application of criteria for authenticity and quality control, we were able to reconstruct 34 mitochondrial genomes of ancient Egyptian individuals, predominantly from southern Egypt, that have been dated from the Predynastic to the Byzantine Period (3600 BC - AD 650). Our data supports the presence of western Eurasian and northeastern African mitochondrial haplogroups in Egypt throughout antiquity. Furthermore, the mitochondrial genomes extend the pool of available datasets, adding novel information for the older periods of Egypt’s past as well as for a broader geographical context. Thereby, this study constitutes another important step for the reconstruction of Egypt’s genetic history, which in the future could be further investigated by genome-wide studies.
^^ compiling both abstracts we see all the mummies were from Turin and Berlin
Summary:
⚫ in this study, we analyzed samples taken from 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals housed in the collections of the Museo Egizio of Turin and the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin.
⚫ These individuals have been recovered from different archaeological sites in Egypt and encompass a timeframe ranging from about 4000 BC to AD 800.
⚫ the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we were able to reconstruct complete mitogenomes for 25 individuals
⚫ Furthermore, we performed a whole-genome enrichment capture on seven individuals to test these findings also on a genome-wide scale.
_______________________________
Bernardino Drovetti, Piedmontese, consul general of France during the occupation in Egypt, collected over 8,000 pieces among statues, sarcophagi, mummies, papyri, amulets, and various jewels. In 1824 King Carlo Felice bought this large collection for 400,000 lire and joining other finds of classical antiquities already belonging to the House of Savoy, including the Donati collection, gave birth to the first Egyptian Museum in the world.
So, if +20% SSA in modern Egyptians is not enough, what amount of SSA would it take to get modern Egyptians to cluster in between outlier 'Nubians' like Gebel Ramlah and coastal North Africans, where predynastics are?
They would need >40% if the Ethiopian sample below is any indication. This is one way we can translate, in simple language, the morphological distance between predynastic and modern Egyptians, for which no proper genetics language exists other than terms like "Natufian", that only play into the hands of people like Phoenician7, as these terms obscure the morphological distances involved.
Either way, one would end up with a predominantly African genome, as this model of a modern Egyptian genome with >40% SSA component does not take into account the non-SSA portion already present in modern Egyptians, that is also present in the Ethiopian sample. There is also some uncertainty that might give underestimations as the Ethiopian sample below that I used to arrive at >40%, does not exactly cluster with predynastics, but with pooled Upper Egyptians (the only unpooled predynastic sample is the Hierakonpolis sample, and it's considerably more African than the Ethiopians and pooled Upper Egyptians).
As can be seen, the centroid of Gebel Ramlah (GRM in Figures 132-133) is equidistant between those of pooled sub-Saharan Africans (SAF) at the top of Figure 9, and Europeans (EUR) near the bottom -- yet it is clearly unique relative to both. It is nearest to, though again equidistant from, pooled samples of post-Neolithic Nubians (NUB) and Upper Egyptians (UEG); it is next most like Ethiopia (ETH) and, to a lesser extent, samples from the Middle East (MEA), Maghreb (MAG), and Lower Egypt (LEG). Other samples of interest include Egyptian predynastic Hierakonpolis (HRK) at the bottom of the graph, Late Paleolithic Taforalt (TAF) and Afalou (AFA) from the Maghreb in the upper right, and Late Paleolithic Jebel Sahaba (JSA). Like the dental afnities, the latter sample, situated just under 100 km south of Gebel Ramlah, more closely resembles the pooled sub-Saharan sample than Gebel Ramlah and other regional Nubians and Egyptians. The human skeletal remains from Gebel Ramlah: A physical anthropological assessment https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joel_Irish/publication/232660381_Gebel_Ramlah_Final_Neolithic_Cemeteries_from_the_Western_Desert_of_Egypt/links/0deec52b1e7c2c1e92000000/Gebel- Ramlah-Final-Neolithic-Cemeteries-from-the-Western-Desert-of-Egypt.pdf
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quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: ^^ compiling both abstracts we see all the mummies were from Turin and Berlin
This got my attention too, as I distinctly recalled that the predynastics with signs of sickle cell also come from a museum in Turin. Also, from another study I read years ago, I know that some or all of the predynastic mummies there come from Gebelein.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Use of the amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) in the study of HbS in predynastic Egyptian remains.
Marin A, Cerutti N, Massa ER.
1999 May-Jun
Dipartimento di Biologia Animale e dell'Uomo, Università degli Studi di Torino.
quote: We conducted a molecular investigation of the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin. Previous studies of these remains showed the presence of severe anemia, while histological preparations of mummified tissues revealed hemolytic disorders. DNA was extracted from dental samples with a silica-gel method specific for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), called amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide mutations. In this method, amplification can occur only in the presence of the specific mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three individuals, there was a band at the level of the HbS mutated fragment, indicating that they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of our results, we discuss the possible uses of new molecular investigation systems in paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.
quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: ^^ compiling both abstracts we see all the mummies were from Turin and Berlin
This got my attention too, as I distinctly recalled that the predynastics with signs of sickle cell also come from a museum in Turin. Also, from another study I read years ago, I know that some or all of the predynastic mummies there come from Gebelein.
They also said some of these mummies were at the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. (Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung) but I don't see mummies listed there (?)
⚫ in this study, we analyzed samples taken from 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals housed in the collections of the Museo Egizio of Turin and the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin.
The Turin ones are probably all non-royals. They say 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals. I'm guessing the vast majority are not mummies but instead skeletons. I've just seen 2 Turin mummies on wiki's lists but I'm not sure if there are more. With recent methods they seem to use teeth a lot for sampling
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posted
Finally I got caught up! It seems every time I get busy with work, interesting threads like this come up. As usual big ups to Swenet for clarifying issues that come up with such studies as well as making Antalas squirm. I agree with what he said about modularity and that certain common components tend to be noticed more so than others. But I have been noticing the trend of people leaking out certain tidbits of info on ancient population genetics even when those genomic samples themselves aren't resolute enough to tell the whole story.
But Swenet is correct about the dishonesty we see in academic publications of ancient populations and their genomics. I've been saying it for years especially ever since the Late Period Abusir Study. I have even gotten word from academics who know researchers in the field telling them how some samples are being being suppressed or not published while others are. This shouldn't be surprising since as Swenet pointed out the African looking Natufians are blatantly being ignored or underrepresented which is a stark contrast to decades ago when Natufians were first described as "negroid cannibals". Why is it not surprising then the same is true for genetic samples or even the interpretation of the run results.
Oh and to Antalas, I'm not as generous as as Swenet. Yes, I call Egyptians 'black' because that is what the Hebrews, Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans called them. I know you idiotically identify 'black' with Sub-Saharans only, but then what are we to make of Nubians who share the same alleged "Levantine ancestry" as Egyptians. Of course they're not black anymore right?? LOLPosts: 26412 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Since modern Egyptians have +20% SSA, in would be interesting to see how the recent SSA ancestry affected the HbS gene proportions. There is paper that says that HbS is correlated with R-V88 among Lebanese Muslims (but not other Lebanese), likely indicating it's of common era date, like modern Egypt's +20% SSA. So if there was change in the Levant, there is a good chance that modern Egyptian HbS genes were changed as well, from predynastic times, as a result of migration from the south.
Seeing how the proportions of genes changed over time would be interesting.
quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: ^^ compiling both abstracts we see all the mummies were from Turin and Berlin
This got my attention too, as I distinctly recalled that the predynastics with signs of sickle cell also come from a museum in Turin. Also, from another study I read years ago, I know that some or all of the predynastic mummies there come from Gebelein.
They also said some of these mummies were at the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. (Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung) but I don't see mummies listed there (?)
⚫ in this study, we analyzed samples taken from 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals housed in the collections of the Museo Egizio of Turin and the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin.
The Turin ones are probably all non-royals. They say 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals. I'm guessing the vast majority are not mummies but instead skeletons. I've just seen 2 Turin mummies on wiki's lists but I'm not sure if there are more. With recent methods they seem to use teeth a lot for sampling
Good sleuthing work. For more info I would suggest looking for papers that studied the Turin and Berlin mummies, as opposed to museum catalogues. Among other things you'll find that Turin has a large collection of pred. mummies from Gebelein and part of it includes actual mummies, as in Gebelein Man ('Ginger') level of preservation.
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: I believe that further details from the published studies will demonstrate the context of several results.
Here are the haplogroups from the leak:
Old-Middle Kingdom:
J F1826 DER J F3119 DER J F3176 DER J FGC1599 DER J1 CTS1138 DER J1 PF4659 DER J1 PF4667 DER J1 F4320 DER J1a PF4772 DER
Middle Kingdom (Djehutynakht):
G2a F2529 DER G2a P15 DER G2a2a PF3159 DER G2a2a PF3167 DER G2a2a PF3168 DER
Dynastic:
E1b1b1 CTS3637 DER
E1b1b1 CTS6298 DER
E1b1b1 M5322 DER
E1b1b1 M5360 DER
E1b1b1b2 PF1961 DER
E1b1b1b2 CTS11781 DER
mightywolf, all of the above are dynastic so what period within the dynastic is the lower portion of E1s?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: To this day there are still Europeans that promote all kinds of fringe nonsense such as the Egyptians of the Grand Canyon, which is obviously absurd. And again, the idea that Africans have to argue with people that Africans were in the ancient Nile Valley, which is totally in Africa, is different from arguing about ancient black Britons. People like throwing around these other ideas as somehow proof that Africans in ancient Africa is somehow fringe when it is not. And unfortunately a lot of people in the African diaspora are more interested in assimilation into foreign culture than promotion of African culture. So they aren't truly "Afrocentric". The whole point of ancient black Britons, blacks in Asia and the Americas is to show the proof of all humans originating in Africa . But that doesn't make those populations African either and unfortunately some people have gotten caught up in semantics over words like "african" vs "black" and so forth.
Avoid using the term "African" as if the incredibly diverse population of this continent was homogeneous. Africa's population is heterogeneous, each with varying genetic and morphological characteristics, some of which may even have closer genetic/morphological affinities to populations outside of Africa. This principle also applies to populations in Asia.
Afrocentrists, as emphasized by Archeo, often trace their ancestry back to West/Central Africa, including Black Americans who have additional NW European heritage and of course these people are not similar to the ancient people of the Nile Valley. Consequently, their perspectives and narratives shouldn't automatically be deemed more authoritative or legitimate than those of Europeans or other groups. People of West/Central african descent are as foreign to the Nile Valley as Europeans if not more.
posted
As I mentioned before there is also this abstract by Scheunemann et al who was presented in 2021: Urban, Christian; Neukamm, Judith; Eppenberger, Patrick; Brändle, Martin; Rühli, Frank and Schuenemann Verena, 2021: Human mitochondrial haplogroups and ancient DNA preservation across Egyptian history
At the same conference also an abstract about Nubia from Meroitic time up until c AD 1450 was presented. Scheunemann was involved in that study too. I have not seen that study published yet (?)
quote:The kingdoms of Nubia, located in the Nile River Valley of modern-day northern Sudan and southern Egypt, served as an important corridor of migration for millennia. Little is known of the ancient genetic landscape, but this biological perspective can further our understanding of population movements before this event. Here, we created a time-transect of genetic diversity in the Middle Nile region, using whole mitochondrial (MT) genome analysis of ancient DNA samples obtained from several archaeological sites spanning nearly two thousand years, from the Meroitic period (ca. 350 BCE) to before the Arab expansion (ca. 1450 CE). We trialed 43 individuals, extracting DNA using newly developed 8, including petrosal bone extraction, nonheat sample processing, enzymatic pretreatments, and DNA capture techniques, optimized for samples with very poor DNA preservation. Following strict contamination and authentication assessments, we retrieved whole mitogenomes for six individuals: two with African ancestry and four with Eurasian ancestry. The ancient Nubians showed most genetic affinity with modern East Africans, Middle Easterners, and Egyptians. These results indicate that Nubians had a strong African component with evidence of gene flow from Eurasia dating back to at least Meroitic through Christian times. Although these individuals ncompass varying archaeological contexts and span two millennia, these initial results hint at the complexity of the region's genetic makeup and begin to reconstruct the impact of migrations from outside Africa. Lastly, our work represents the first successful retrieval of full MT sequence data from Middle Nile inhabitants, further demonstrating the viability of paleogenomic work in Sudan.
Scheunemann et al 2021: Paleogenomic insights into Nubian ancestry from ancient Middle Nile populations
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: To this day there are still Europeans that promote all kinds of fringe nonsense such as the Egyptians of the Grand Canyon, which is obviously absurd. And again, the idea that Africans have to argue with people that Africans were in the ancient Nile Valley, which is totally in Africa, is different from arguing about ancient black Britons. People like throwing around these other ideas as somehow proof that Africans in ancient Africa is somehow fringe when it is not. And unfortunately a lot of people in the African diaspora are more interested in assimilation into foreign culture than promotion of African culture. So they aren't truly "Afrocentric". The whole point of ancient black Britons, blacks in Asia and the Americas is to show the proof of all humans originating in Africa . But that doesn't make those populations African either and unfortunately some people have gotten caught up in semantics over words like "african" vs "black" and so forth.
Avoid using the term "African" as if the incredibly diverse population of this continent was homogeneous. Africa's population is heterogeneous, each with varying genetic and morphological characteristics, some of which may even have closer genetic/morphological affinities to populations outside of Africa. This principle also applies to populations in Asia.
Afrocentrists, as emphasized by Archeo, often trace their ancestry back to West/Central Africa, including Black Americans who have additional NW European heritage and of course these people are not similar to the ancient people of the Nile Valley. Consequently, their perspectives and narratives shouldn't automatically be deemed more authoritative or legitimate than those of Europeans or other groups. People of West/Central african descent are as foreign to the Nile Valley as Europeans if not more.
so is this the new breakdown?
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Afrocentrists, as emphasized by Archeo, often trace their ancestry back to West/Central Africa, including Black Americans who have additional NW European heritage
quote: Black americans are made up of varied black ethnic groups like white americans. Black americans could be ethnic african americans,nigerian americans,jamaica americans,south african americans,black puerto rico ricans americans,black brazilians americans,ethiopians americans,black egyptians etc..
Rinse and repeat.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: the european admixed afro-american.
I don't know why you keep saying this(in fact i think i know why),just say african americans etc..but when you bring up white or european americans you do to not bring up the every time they have african admixture and what you said is non-sense /incorrect anyway.
If you bring up white americans next time i want you to keep that same energy and write something like this.
Antalas quote-
quote: Yes okay you're just playing on semantics and you do not have anything to back up your "possibly". Iberomaurusians were physically very different from modern europeans including the african admixed euro-american.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Afro-americans have NW european ancestry
Originally posted by Firewall: The way you write this you make it seem like it's all,but it's not true. Some african americans have NW european ancestry,not all.
quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: ^^ compiling both abstracts we see all the mummies were from Turin and Berlin
This got my attention too, as I distinctly recalled that the predynastics with signs of sickle cell also come from a museum in Turin. Also, from another study I read years ago, I know that some or all of the predynastic mummies there come from Gebelein.
They also said some of these mummies were at the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. (Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung) but I don't see mummies listed there (?)
⚫ in this study, we analyzed samples taken from 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals housed in the collections of the Museo Egizio of Turin and the Egyptian Museum and Papyrus Collection of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin.
The Turin ones are probably all non-royals. They say 99 ancient Egyptian mummified or skeletonized individuals. I'm guessing the vast majority are not mummies but instead skeletons. I've just seen 2 Turin mummies on wiki's lists but I'm not sure if there are more. With recent methods they seem to use teeth a lot for sampling
Good sleuthing work. For more info I would suggest looking for papers that studied the Turin and Berlin mummies, as opposed to museum catalogues. Among other things you'll find that Turin has a large collection of pred. mummies from Gebelein and part of it includes actual mummies, as in Gebelein Man ('Ginger') level of preservation.
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: I believe that further details from the published studies will demonstrate the context of several results.
Here are the haplogroups from the leak:
Old-Middle Kingdom:
J F1826 DER J F3119 DER J F3176 DER J FGC1599 DER J1 CTS1138 DER J1 PF4659 DER J1 PF4667 DER J1 F4320 DER J1a PF4772 DER
Middle Kingdom (Djehutynakht):
G2a F2529 DER G2a P15 DER G2a2a PF3159 DER G2a2a PF3167 DER G2a2a PF3168 DER
Dynastic:
E1b1b1 CTS3637 DER
E1b1b1 CTS6298 DER
E1b1b1 M5322 DER
E1b1b1 M5360 DER
E1b1b1b2 PF1961 DER
E1b1b1b2 CTS11781 DER
If the mummies and skeletons are from Turin and Berlin museums why is Djehutynakht listed here? That is a mummy head in Boston Museum of Fine Arts https://collections.mfa.org/objects/144861
_______________________
Look at this image from somalispot.com where they talk about the leak >>
Biological Sexing of a 4000-Year-Old Egyptian Mummy Head to Assess the Potential of Nuclear DNA Recovery from the Most Damaged and Limited Forensic Specimens Odile Loreille, et al
In order to unequivocally determine the biological sex of the individual, the MFA collaborated with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Laboratory to perform DNA analysis.
The mtGenome profile independently obtained from the tooth by the FBI and HMS laboratories were identical and can be found in Table S2. The haplotype (deposited in GenBank under accession number MG736653) belongs to mitochondrial DNA lineage U5b2b5
____________________________
^^ the Y-DNA of Djehutynakht has not been published yet, just the mtDNA (U5). The leak is saying G2 same haplogroup as reported by Yehia Gad 2020 for Yuya of the 18th dynasty
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If the mummies and skeletons are from Turin and Berlin museums why is Djehutynakht listed here? That is a mummy head in Boston Museum of Fine Arts https://collections.mfa.org/objects/144861
As I said to Mightywolf, in the abstracts it's never said that Y-DNA was obtained. If these Y-DNA leaks posted by Miro and others are valid, they are possibly from another upcoming paper. But Djehutiynakth coming from a Boston museum (as opposed to the museums listed in the abstract), is just one more clue that they're not from any of the official abstracts we've seen.
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posted
Was reminded of this when I read the Takarkori abstract, but was too lazy to go find it.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Preliminary results obtained from ancient DNA studies are presented in Chapter 13, by Carla Babalini and co-workers. Mitochondrial DNA extraction was attempted upon a sub-sample of human teeth from ten individuals. The mtDNA locus was selected due to its maternal inheritance pattern, high copy number, simple structure and relatively fast rate of mutational change. Analysis was undertaken upon the two hypervariable regions and region V. The authors report that the mtDNA from the individuals from site 96/129 was reasonably distinct from that obtained from the other sampled material. Only one individual was fully characterised, and was found to be a member of an African haplotype (L3).
Zakrzewski, Review Submitted: March 2004
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Zakrezewski says of the genetically ''reasonably distinct'' site that yielded mtDNA L3:
quote:The fifth chapter consists of descriptions of the excavations undertaken. Some clear accounts are given of the tumulus excavations, such as the sequence of burials in tumuli 1 & 2 at site 96/129 near Tahalla. The burials consist of a vast range of biologically aged individuals, from neonates, through children and juveniles, to mature adults. These skeletons are found in association with grave goods, including beads (stone, ostrich egg-shell and faience), carinated scrapers and bifacial arrowheads etc. Detail is provided as to the phasing of the construction of the tumuli through analysis of the changing tumuli complex shapes. The authors suggest, with little evidence provided, that this is associated with a change from kinship linkage to the assertion of social ranking in groups. There is much interpretation of the archaeological evidence, and potentially some over-interpretation of the data, such as hypothesising over potential sacrifice of the female in Tumulus 3bis (H1) and its presumed association with the male in Tumulus 3 (H2) at site 96/129, or of the potential mother and child in Tumulus 10 (H2 and H4 respectively) again at site 96/129. When site 96/129 was selected for excavation it was believed to represent a single middle to large cemetery of Late Pastoral phase. Excavation indicated that it dated to the start of the 4th millennium BP and ended around 2500 BP (and thus overlapped with the start of the Garamantian phase). In the following chapter however, describing the textiles and leather, the same site is simply described as a Late Pastoral cemetery, radiocarbon dated to 3800-2700 BP.
I decided to finally search for this Libyan mtDNA data after teading this, in the Djehutinakth paper Lioness posted:
However, nearly all of the remains excavated in the Northern part of the continent belong to Eurasian mtDNA lineages [63,67,74,89,90]. In fact, of the 114 mtDNA genomes now available from northern African ancient human remains, only one belongs to an African lineage (L3 observed in a skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq [74]). The deep presence of Eurasian mtDNA lineages in Northern Africa has, therefore, been clearly established with these recent reports and offers further support for the authenticity of the Eurasian mtDNA sequence observed in the Djehutynakht mummy. Biological Sexing of a 4000-Year-Old Egyptian Mummy Head to Assess the Potential of Nuclear DNA Recovery from the Most Damaged and Limited Forensic Specimens https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5867856/
I looked at those 5 references (63,67,74,89,90) and, unsurprisingly, they're all late samples, while the Libyan L3 and non-Eurasian(?) HVS-I mito haplotypes above are older. In the later Libyan samples we see a change to Eurasian HVS-I mito haplotypes. Again, unsurprising, as this Libyan aDNA (5000-3500 BP) is simply reflecting the change to Eurasian DNA over time, that we also see in Egypt.
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posted
Also interesting: according to Lipinski those Libyan tumuli discussed by Zakrzewski in her review, appear in the Levant as well during Semitic migrations out of Egypt, and he regards them as signs of N. African migration.
This might have been the period when the speakers of Proto-Semitic passed through the Nile delta from the West to the East, and reached Western Asia, where written documents of the third millennium B.C. preserve noticeable traces of Pre-Semitic and, in Mesopotamia, also of Pre- Sumerian substratum. The collapse of the Ghassulian culture in Palestine around 3300 B.C. and the Egyptian finds in southern Palestine from the Early Bronze period I (ca. 3300-3050 B.C.) may testify to the arrival of these new population groups. The Palestinian tumuli, belonging to the culture of semi-nomadic groups during much of the fourth and third millennia B.C., seem to confirm this hypothesis, since a very similar type of sepulture characterizes pre-historic North Africa, especially Algeria, and it is a typical feature of the old Libyco-Berber tradition. Semitic Languages: Outline of a Comparative Grammar https://books.google.nl/books/about/Semitic_Languages.html?id=IiXVqyEkPKcC&redir_esc=yPosts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If the mummies and skeletons are from Turin and Berlin museums why is Djehutynakht listed here? That is a mummy head in Boston Museum of Fine Arts https://collections.mfa.org/objects/144861
As I said to Mightywolf, in the abstracts it's never said that Y-DNA was obtained. If these Y-DNA leaks posted by Miro and others are valid, they are possibly from another upcoming paper. But Djehutiynakth coming from a Boston museum (as opposed to the museums listed in the abstract), is just one more clue that they're not from any of the official abstracts we've seen.
Yes, I miscounted the method "whole-genome enrichment capture" as meaning "we included Y-DNA" not thats not what it means. After looking into that term it refers to a technique used in genetic analysis to capture and focus on specific regions of an individual's entire genome but selecting and isolating specific DNA sequences of interest from the entire genome for further analysis. It helps to uncover insights into specific genetic variations or mutations
quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: Apparently separate leaks I guess you've seen this (bottom of page) at somalispot
I've not done any searching into those leaks as I'm not interested in what bloggers like Miro and Phoenician7 have to say. For me the leaks are in limbo, not accepted and not dismissed, until we get something from an official source.
Miro talking about "a change" from Epipalaeolithic to Neolithic Egyptians, when the remains from this period are rare, and do not resemble pharaonic type Egyptians (only thing resembling Egyptians in this period is al Khiday, but that's in Sudan), is just another reminder not to get taken for a ride by these people.
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posted
Weather the leaks are reliable or not, they are a result of that some researchers go out and introduce the results of a research project on conferences and similar, then it takes rather long time until they actually publish a paper with those results. Or sometimes any paper fail to materialize at all, as in the case of the abstract about Ancient Egypt by Scheunemann et al who was presented in 2021.
The Scheunemann study is even mentioned in Wikipedia:
quote: A unpublished, follow-up study by Scheunemann & Urban et al. (2021) was carried out collecting samples from six excavation sites along the entire length of the Nile valley spanning 4000 years of Egyptian history. Samples from 17 mummies and 14 skeletal remains were collected, and high quality mitochondrial genomes were reconstructed from 10 individuals. According to the authors the analyzed mitochondrial genomes matched the results from the 2017 study at Abusir el-Meleq.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Also interesting: according to Lipinski those Libyan tumuli discussed by Zakrzewski in her review, appear in the Levant as well during Semitic migrations out of Egypt, and he regards them as signs of N. African migration.
This might have been the period when the speakers of Proto-Semitic passed through the Nile delta from the West to the East, and reached Western Asia, where written documents of the third millennium B.C. preserve noticeable traces of Pre-Semitic and, in Mesopotamia, also of Pre- Sumerian substratum. The collapse of the Ghassulian culture in Palestine around 3300 B.C. and the Egyptian finds in southern Palestine from the Early Bronze period I (ca. 3300-3050 B.C.) may testify to the arrival of these new population groups. The Palestinian tumuli, belonging to the culture of semi-nomadic groups during much of the fourth and third millennia B.C., seem to confirm this hypothesis, since a very similar type of sepulture characterizes pre-historic North Africa, especially Algeria, and it is a typical feature of the old Libyco-Berber tradition. Semitic Languages: Outline of a Comparative Grammar https://books.google.nl/books/about/Semitic_Languages.html?id=IiXVqyEkPKcC&redir_esc=y
What type of tumuli exactly ? The examples in NW Africa are relatively simple, and as far as I know, the only ones that have been dated are from the latter half of the 1st millennium BC.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Weather the leaks are reliable or not, they are a result of that some researchers go out and introduce the results of a research project on conferences and similar, then it takes rather long time until they actually publish a paper with those results. Or sometimes any paper fail to materialize at all, as in the case of the abstract about Ancient Egypt by Scheunemann et al who was presented in 2021.
The Scheunemann study is even mentioned in Wikipedia:
quote: A unpublished, follow-up study by Scheunemann & Urban et al. (2021) was carried out collecting samples from six excavation sites along the entire length of the Nile valley spanning 4000 years of Egyptian history. Samples from 17 mummies and 14 skeletal remains were collected, and high quality mitochondrial genomes were reconstructed from 10 individuals. According to the authors the analyzed mitochondrial genomes matched the results from the 2017 study at Abusir el-Meleq.
There is not any known abstract announcing Y-DNA from Egypt, let alone Epipalaeolithic and Neolithic aDNA implied by Miro. Unless you're arguing that the conference hosting the speakers associated w/ these leaks conveniently left no traces online, unlike all the other presentations for which we have records.
The sources of these leaks also are also claiming to do their own analyses, which means that someone is claiming to possess the unpublished genomes. Hard to get that from watching a presentation.
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posted
I talked more generally that if researchers present studies on conferences and similar, and it then take some time before an actual study is published, it can lead to speculations and false or true leaks online. At least if it concerns subjects which are often hotly debated.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2792 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I talked more generally that if researchers present studies on conferences and similar, and it then take some time before an actual study is published, it can lead to speculations and false or true leaks online. At least if it concerns subjects which are often hotly debated.
Understand that the Schuenemann 2017 study Ancient Mummy Genomes keeps getting used over and over again as argument. The only paternal DNA it showed was of 3 late period mummies
As a comparison if you look at most Berbers in the Maghreb they are paternal Y Haplogroup E-M81 . That is an African haplogroup Only their female side DNA is considered Eurasian, most commonly U6 (with some H and other clades) and U6 an African variant of the haplogroup U
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Weather the leaks are reliable or not, they are a result of that some researchers go out and introduce the results of a research project on conferences and similar, then it takes rather long time until they actually publish a paper with those results. Or sometimes any paper fail to materialize at all, as in the case of the abstract about Ancient Egypt by Scheunemann et al who was presented in 2021.
The Scheunemann study is even mentioned in Wikipedia:
quote: A unpublished, follow-up study by Scheunemann & Urban et al. (2021) was carried out collecting samples from six excavation sites along the entire length of the Nile valley spanning 4000 years of Egyptian history. Samples from 17 mummies and 14 skeletal remains were collected, and high quality mitochondrial genomes were reconstructed from 10 individuals. According to the authors the analyzed mitochondrial genomes matched the results from the 2017 study at Abusir el-Meleq.
There is not any known abstract announcing Y-DNA from Egypt, let alone Epipalaeolithic and Neolithic aDNA implied by Miro. Unless you're arguing that the conference hosting the speakers associated w/ these leaks conveniently left no traces online, unlike all the other presentations for which we have records.
The sources of these leaks also are also claiming to do their own analyses, which means that someone is claiming to possess the unpublished genomes. Hard to get that from watching a presentation.
None of the purported "leakers" have access to the samples. Maybe some "bloggers" or users who roamed sites like anthrogenica, but no one who was associated with leaking the data has access. The only thing we can speculate is whether or not Davidski was able to get them projected onto his G25 PCA. All leaked information could only be that of downstream analysis to which some peers are using false estimated projections of a projection on G25.
Moreover the article who's abstract is included in the OP doesn't not contain the same samples as the leaks. The oldest sample which reported autosome in Mussauer 2023 is dated between 1800 - 1500bc. She does have Y-DNA estimates for these sample written on the blurry poster. And the mtDNA haplogroups Arch is obsessed with were some of those captured in this study. I believe that the boom in diversity with be correctly associated with bronze age expansion come release.
Posts: 1785 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:And the mtDNA haplogroups Arch is obsessed with were some of those captured in this study. I believe that the boom in diversity with be correctly associated with bronze age expansion come release.
No one is obsessed. I only mentioned them, since the Abusir study, and the unpublished Scheunemann et al study from 2021 mostly included mtDNA haplogroups.
Otherwise it is of course best to wait until the new study is published before drawing any conclusions. Speculations often do not lead anywhere.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2792 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: None of the purported "leakers" have access to the samples. Maybe some "bloggers" or users who roamed sites like anthrogenica, but no one who was associated with leaking the data has access. The only thing we can speculate is whether or not Davidski was able to get them projected onto his G25 PCA. All leaked information could only be that of downstream analysis to which some peers are using false estimated projections of a projection on G25.
Moreover the article who's abstract is included in the OP doesn't not contain the same samples as the leaks. The oldest sample which reported autosome in Mussauer 2023 is dated between 1800 - 1500bc. She does have Y-DNA estimates for these sample written on the blurry poster. And the mtDNA haplogroups Arch is obsessed with were some of those captured in this study. I believe that the boom in diversity with be correctly associated with bronze age expansion come release. [/qb]
They explicitly mentioned mtDNA, but not Y-DNA in the Mussauer abstract. Maybe Mussauer are just quoting Y-DNA from another unpublished paper in that blurry table (if they didn't get the Y-DNA themselves, it would make sense that they only announced successful sequencing of mtDNA and autosomes in the abstract). Guess we'll have to wait and see.
If you are correct this upcoming paper will not be giving any clarity re: the entry of CHG in Egypt as 1800-1500BC is younger than Nuerat. The leaks are potentially showing themselves to be incongruent, as they have CHG in Egypt already in OK times. Guess we won't have to look to Mussauer because their autosomal data is too late to clarify the issue.
I will say though, the increase of SSA ancestry in Middle Kingdom times in the leaks matches the TMRCA of E-M2 and R-V88 in Egypt (D’Atanasio et al 2018) as well as other signs of migration Kupfer et al 2006.
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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I will say though, the increase of SSA ancestry in Middle Kingdom times in the leaks matches the TMRCA of E-M2 and R-V88 in Egypt (D’Atanasio et al 2018) as well as other signs of migration Kupfer et al 2006. [/QB]
This alleged leak
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: I believe that further details from the published studies will demonstrate the context of several results.
Here are the haplogroups from the leak....
_____________________
Middle Kingdom (Djehutynakht):
G2a F2529 DER G2a P15 DER G2a2a PF3159 DER G2a2a PF3167 DER G2a2a PF3168 DER
a graphic with a sculpture of Djehutynakht and text saying G2a2a Djehutynakht of the middle kingdom was already reported to be of a U5a clade on the mitochondrial side. The 18th dna Yuya was reported G2 also and K on the female side by Gad in 2020
Although this is just one individual. And the rest of the 18th article reported and unspecified clade of R1b, all mtDNA was K (also found in KEB (Moroccan Late Neolithic) samples as well as T2 and K2 by Fregal, 2018) although IAM samples were U6a and M1
I noticed on the above list the haplogroup is followed by DER I was wondering what that means. I don't think it's any standard abbreviation if capitalized at the end like that
Posts: 43042 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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And compare with Egypt-specific E-M2 dating to MK times:
quote:In this context, although the large majority of the geo- graphically restricted lineages come from sub-Saharan regions, we also found two northern African-specific clades, namely E-V5001 and E-V4990. E-V5001 has only been found in Egypt, is one of the sister clades within the E-M4727 multifurcation and coalesced at 3.88 kya.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Lioness. See the OK/MK samples' Dinka column. Compare with the Dinka in the OK individual. One of the '?' samples also has elevated Dinka.
Of note Cruciani in his 2010 article on R-V88 reported B2a1a 28% in Siwans, Egypt although Siwans aside other articles on Egyptian DNA report A/B under 3%
posted
Keep in mind that's not an official analysis. It's done by bloggers. With formal tests the ancestry will increase (see the SSA in Abusir when they drew it out; it got up to 15%, IIRC, depending on the outgroups used) and the exact affinity can be tested.
It's not really the amount that matters anyway. The issue is the increase that will probably be across the board in MK samples, compared to OK times. Since I'm not saying that MK samples are Sub-Saharan African, the amount of SSA is not the issue. It's the pervasiveness and the timing and the fact that it matches the TMRCA of E-M2 in Egypt.
Yes, Dinka are known for A-M32, B-M60, not E-M2. But that's missing the point.
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: when did you first come to this conclusion?
This was always vaguely hinted at by the data (e.g. royal women in 11th dynasty tombs, like Ashait and Kemsit whose skeletal remains were said to look different as in: "Nubian", and there was some Sub-Saharan aDNA from this dynasty, as well). But with D’Atanasio et al 2018 things became more tangible as far as the timing of new SSA arrivals in Egypt (see D’Atanasio et al quote above).
quote:Originally posted by the Lioness: when did you first come to this conclusion?
This was always vaguely hinted at by the data (e.g. royal women in 11th dynasty tombs, like Ashait and Kemsit whose skeletal remains were said to look different as in: "Nubian", and there was some Sub-Saharan aDNA from this dynasty, as well).
an article documented human Sub-Saharan DNA from the 11th dynasty?
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posted
An old Paabo study published in an expensive book, from what I remember.
Wiki:
In 1993, a study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated from Sub-Saharan Africa but other lineages were not identified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Middle_East
Although these specific cases of "SSA lineages" could have been present since predynastic times (unlike North African-specific E-M2 and R-V88, they're not mentioned by name and we don't know their distribution).
Posts: 8792 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: An old Paabo study published in an expensive book, from what I remember.
Wiki:
In 1993, a study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated from Sub-Saharan Africa but other lineages were not identified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Middle_East
Although these specific cases of "SSA lineages" could have been present since predynastic times (unlike North African-specific E-M2 and R-V88, they're not mentioned by name and we don't know their distribution).
This is not on the internet
but I got a hold of it. here are the relevant portions of that chapter :
quote:Paabo S, Di Rienzo A (1993). "A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history.". In Davies V, Walker R (eds.). In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. London: British Museum Press. pp. 86–90.
In Egypt, an extensive survey of the mtDNA variability in the Nile Delta population is in progress and preliminary results (Di Rienzo and Wilson in preparation) allow one to formulate hypotheses on the origin and history of this population. For example, one interesting finding is that a small subset of modern Egyptian mitochondrial DNA lineages are closely related to Sub-Saharan African lineages. Fig. 1 shows the phylogenetic relationships among such lineages. Two different patterns are observed. In one case (Fig. 1A) two Egyptian lineages branch off from different African lineages. A reconstruction of migration events, indicated by arrows, suggests that the two Egyptian lineages originated independently from an ancestral African population. The application of a time scale to the tree could allow an estimation of the time interval when these migrations occurred. In the case of the diagram in Fig. 1A, one migration has occurred in the interval between 12 in the past and the present, while the other migration took place in the interval between 13 in the past and the present. In the case depicted in Fig. 1B, two Egyptians are also closely related to Sub-Saharan lineages. However, in this case the two Egyptian lineages are each other's closest relatives. This allows one to explain the occurrence of these lineages in Egypt with only one migration event involving an ancestor of the two Egyptian lineages (arrow). In this case, an older (13) as well as a younger time limit (t1) in the past can be inferred for the migration. We envision that when we gain a better knowledge of the mitochondrial DNA variability of the Egyptian population, we will be able to arrive at a quantitative estimate of the numbers of such migration events that have occurred as well as of their timing. These inferences can then be tested by going back in time to mummies and skeletal remains. An illustration of the feasibility of this approach is provided by the mummy of Nekht-Ankh, a priest of the Middle Kingdom. Short mitochondrial DNA sequences (45 and 81 nucleotides long) have been determined by PCR and direct sequencing from the remains of his liver found in a canopic jar (Paabo, 1989). When this sequence is compared to the sequences determined from the Delta population, it is found that it is. identical to four of the modern Egyptian mitochondrial lineages. However, in order to achieve comparisons that are statistically meaningful, sequences that are as long as the modern ones (approximately 400 nucleotides) will have to be determined from the ancient populations. This is a laborious task because the ancient DNA is degraded to such an extent that a 400 nucleotide sequence needs to be determined in approximately eight shorter, overlapping pieces. However, we believe that this work is well worth the effort, since it will give us the first molecular view ever of an ancient human population and of its modern descendants.
The kinship of two 12th Dynasty mummies revealed by ancient DNA sequencing Konstantina Drosoua et. al 2018
ABSTRACT We resolve a longstanding question regarding the kinship of two high-status Egyptians from the 12th Dynasty, Nakht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht, whose mummies were discovered in 1907 by Egyptian workmen directed by Flinders Petrie and Ernest Mackay. Although their coffin inscriptions indicate that Nakht-Ankh and KhnumNakht were brothers, when the mummies were unwrapped in 1908 the skeletal morphologies were found to be quite different, suggesting an absence of family relationship. We extracted ancient DNA from the teeth of the two mummies and, following hybridization capture of the mitochondrial and Y chromosome fractions, sequenced the DNA by a next generation method. Analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms showed that both Nakht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht belonged to mitochondrial haplotype M1a1, suggesting a maternal relationship. The Y chromosome sequences were less complete but showed variations between the two mummies, indicating that Nakht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht had different fathers. Our study emphasizes the importance of kinship in ancient Egypt, and represents the first successful typing of both mitochondrial and Y chromosomal DNA in Egyptian mummies.
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