quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Egyptian texts from around 2500 BC refer to the Pygmies as little men from the land of trees and spirits at the foot of the Mountains of the Moon. Egyptian king Nefrikare sent an expedition into central Africa and it returned with a dancing dwarf known as Akka.
Statute of the Dwarf Perniankhu - 2500 BC, probably the reign of Khafre
Hidden Treasures of Ancient Egypt, by Zahi Hawass, p. 151 (2004):
"Perniankhu is clearly here as a dwarf, a diagnosis that was confirmed by the discovery of his skeleton in a burial shaft below the superstructure of his tomb. Dwarves were not uncommon in ancient Egypt and were often held in high esteem. Dwarves also participated in funeral dances and were closely associated with the sun god."
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STATUE OF RANEFEREF Painted limestone Dynasty 5, reign of Raneferef Abusir, Mortuary temple of Raneferef Excavations of Miroslav Verner, 1984
Hidden Treasures of Ancient Egypt, by Zahi Hawass, p. 132 (2004):
Abusir, which lies six miles south of Giza, was the burial ground for the kings of the 5th dynasty. Miroslav Verner, the Czech team has identified an unfinished pyramid at Abusir as the tomb of Raneferef, a short-lived king of the 5th dynasty about whom little is known. Their work has enabled them to clarify the history of this shadowy period. Raneferef came to the throne in about 2419 B.C. He began construction on his pyramid, just a few meters southwest of his father's complex, but only the first step of the core was completed before his sudden death only three years later. The mummy was examined, and the age of the young king at his death was found to be 22 or 23. The Horus hawk stands on the throne back behind Raneferef's head, ready to lift him to heaven. The well-preserved stone of this statue has retained much of its original paint, giving the modern viewer an excellent sense of its ancient appearance.
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I have some pics of Tehenu from BATES at home. I'll scan and post them tomorrow.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The Libyan captive depicted is unfortunately a black and white photo so I cannot really tell by the apperance. Tehennu were usually depicted in a dark brownish apperance with sometimes a pointed beard and a penis sheath. I believe the book The Eastern Libyans by Oric Bates has some pictures of the following. If you can find this book thought inter-library loan or some other means.
The fair skin tamahou type does not really appear untill around the New Kingdom.
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I think Bes was Twa but most Kemmemou never seeing a Denq dancer of the neteru depicted him as a dwarf the closest living example they were familiar with.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Bes, the Dwarf god or really a Twa?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:I think Bes was Twa but most Kemmemou never seeing a Denq dancer of the neteru depicted him as a dwarf the closest living example they were familiar with.
Is it dng or dnq? In Amharic the word for a dwarf is "dink", and Kitchen states that the word was "dng," connecting it to the Amharic word.
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Weren't there any painted depictions of Tehenu that show them to have the same brown complexion as the Egyptians?
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
...keep in mind that most people continue to make the mistake of not translating the Mdu Ntr words for these ethnic groups into their exact meanings; which I think leads to confusion; add nauseum...
Namou Sho > Nam=traveler - ou=people - Sho=sands; "people who travel the sands" - Nomads who are pictorially shown to be Asiatic.
Tamh > hematite; ochre; reddish > Tamhou Red ones - What today we refer to as White people.
Tehenn = "sparkling", "dazzling", "Egyptian Faience (an opaque glaze, usually strong greenish blue)" Tehennu = "sparkling or dazzling or bright blue ones/people"; portrayed pictorially as Blacks
and so on and so forth.
It's all explained by the Mdu Ntr...
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I'm pretty sure I have seen the first pic labeled as a Lebu somewhere so I'm not sure BATES is correct about it depicting a Tehenu.
Physically, the other pics posted above seem to depict Black African people to me as well as to BATES who labelled them as "negroids".
The New Kingdom Tamahu also don't look like those Tehenu from Sahure's tomb IMO, who look much like Ancient Egyptians (courtesy of a Berber activist site):
Socially & culturally the Egyptians seem to have had a different perception of those two people, the Tehenu having being referred early as Hatyu "princes", while Temehu never had been considered positively by Egyptians to my knowledge.
Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL also laid down the hypothesises that Tehenu were most likely farmers and Temehu nomads.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
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Senegalese Egyptologist Aboubacry Moussa LAM also pointed out the resemblances between Pulaar dingaa, dengkii "shorty" and Egyptian d3ng & Amharic denk.
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Al-Takruri,
quote:I think Bes was Twa but most Kemmemou never seeing a Denq dancer of the neteru depicted him as a dwarf the closest living example they were familiar with.
Is it dng or dnq? In Amharic the word for a dwarf is "dink", and Kitchen states that the word was "dng," connecting it to the Amharic word.
Weren't those types of headbands worn by some of the Tehenu above you noticed on Asiatics, Puntites & Neteret and that you hypothetically attributed to a common cultural origin?
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Sorry moderator if it's off-topic.
I'm pretty sure I have seen the first pic labeled as a Lebu somewhere so I'm not sure BATES is correct about it depicting a Tehenu.
Physically, the other pics posted above seem to depict Black African people to me as well as to BATES who labelled them as "negroids".
The New Kingdom Tamahu also don't look like those Tehenu from Sahure's tomb IMO, who look much like Ancient Egyptians (courtesy of a Berber activist site)...
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
Which is why I asked the question cited!
Ps - Any possibility that the pictures you posted earlier can be rotated, so that the remaining pictures are the right way up as the first?
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Djehuti:
Weren't those types of headbands worn by some of the Tehenu above you noticed on Asiatics, Puntites & Neteret and that you hypothetically attributed to a common cultural origin?
Yes. The headbands or "fillets" as scholars call them are not only depicted Semitic speaking Asiatics, Libyans, and Puntites but are also shown being worn by the Egyptians themselves.
And since the same type of headbands are still worn to this day by various peoples in the Horn from Ethiopia to Somalia, I would only surmise that this accessory is of common Afrasian origin.
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Egyptian artwork should probably called the white racist's nightmare considering the blatant African depictions!
I take it that those same people who claim the Egyptians weren't black have seen very little Egyptian art!
I remember a thread years ago we posted a picture of a New Kingdom funerary wall painting, to which the silly troll Hore said something like "you should go digging in Nubia for more stuff like that". He actually thought the depiction of all those black people were "Nubians"! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Djehuti:
Weren't those types of headbands worn by some of the Tehenu above you noticed on Asiatics, Puntites & Neteret and that you hypothetically attributed to a common cultural origin?
Yes. The headbands or "fillets" as scholars call them are not only depicted Semitic speaking Asiatics, Libyans, and Puntites but are also shown being worn by the Egyptians themselves .
And since the same type of headbands are still worn to this day by various peoples in the Horn from Ethiopia to Somalia, I would only surmise that this accessory is of common Afrasian origin.
What other Egyptians than the Neterut were shown to wear these headbands?
Also, what do you think is the common significance of this item among these people cited above?
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^I'm surprised you think only the Neter were depicted with headbands, as there are numerous examples of Egyptian commoners wearing such items from wall paintings to statuary.
The only example I could think of at the moment is in Tut's tomb paintings.
As for the significance of it, I have no clue! I have to do research on the significance of it in the modern cultures of people who wear it for me to get even an idea of what it meant to the Egyptians. I can say I have seen people like the Afar wear it during special occasions.
Perhaps Yom or someone else from the Horn region who is familiar with such adornments could help us out.
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Ibumped up some "Libyan" threads but this one Tehenu Ancient Black Libyans (clickable link) is on lockdown. Maybe some moderator will de-weed and unlock it or failing that just bump it up for quick review since it's a current topic.
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Actually, since those "fillets" are arguably some of the most banal headdresses worldwide and that I have seen them worn by many Egyptians and various Non-"Afrasian" African people I didn't think the Neteret were the only Egyptians to be depicted wearing it. It is just that I remember you associating it with Egyptian Goddesses along with Asiatic women and Puntites in an old thread.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: From Medinet Habu:
^Midogbe, if you noticed closely all the men in the painting wear these headbands.
Here is another depiction from Tut's tomb
By the way, what non-Afrasian African groups have you seen wear headbands like these?
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Thanks for the pics Djehuti, I didn't doubt there are pics of AE wearing the fillet as I have one of an OK or MK official from SCHÄFER's Principles of Egyptian Art at home.
Some of the other Africans who wear it are Betammaribe people from Northern Benin and Mina from Togo/Benin (I've seen pics of ritual dances).
I don't think their use is related to that of the people cited above since it is a very common ornament and I thought you claimed a common origin for them because their significance and use was the same.
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^That's the problem-- I don't know what the Kemetians thought of the 'fillets' let alone what the significance is to them.
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The two first characters from the left are Asiatics, right? If yes, may their different hairstyles refer to their belonging to different ethnic groups?
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Limestone scene representing the daughter of Akhenaten. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Sandstone and painted image of Nefertiti dating to the first 5 regnal years of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten's reign from Karnak. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Painted limestone scene of a man carrying a talatat block. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Painted limestone scene of musicians from Amarna and it was excavated in 1935. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Limestone relief of two soldiers, dating to the Amarna period. Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge.
Sandstone relief of soldiers, dating to the Amarna period. Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge.
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Painted limestone relief showing two Princesses shaking sistrums. Excavated from a chapel called the 'Weben Ateb' at the Great Temple in Amarna in 1932. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
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^ Is that small wooden figurine really that of Tiye or one of her daughters or granddaughters?
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An important tomb for information concerning how ancient monumental construction was performed, but not widely published on the web, partly because it was heavily damaged by coptic christians.
Glazed tiles from Medinet Habu. Medinet Habu was the mortuary temple of Ramesses III and is located on the west bank opposite Thebes. They represent the neighbours of Egypt. They are Nubian, Philistine, Amorite, Syrian and Mitani.
Nubian
Philistine
Amorite
Syrian
Mitani
Ramesses III
.
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Much thanks for the detailed zooms of the faience tiles!!!
Does anyone see a strong resemblance in the Mitanni and "Libyan" (not shown above) profile facial features?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Why is it that out of all these images and names that conjure up specific people and places, only the jet black African is given a name which has no meaning or identity? What does NUBIAN mean in this context? I doubt that the Egyptians actually used this term and probably gave something more descriptive than that. As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Much thanks for the detailed zooms of the faience tiles!!!
Does anyone see a strong resemblance in the Mitanni and "Libyan" (not shown above) profile facial features?
Yes, but could this not be due to coincidence as such a phenotype can be found in other areas like southern Europe, Western Asia, and perhaps Central Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Why is it that out of all these images and names that conjure up specific people and places, only the jet black African is given a name which has no meaning or identity? What does NUBIAN mean in this context? I doubt that the Egyptians actually used this term and probably gave something more descriptive than that. As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
Come now, Doug. We are all too familiar with the 'Nubian' label and its uses by Western scholars.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Much thanks for the detailed zooms of the faience tiles!!!
Does anyone see a strong resemblance in the Mitanni and "Libyan" (not shown above) profile facial features?
Yes, but could this not be due to coincidence as such a phenotype can be found in other areas like southern Europe, Western Asia, and perhaps Central Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Why is it that out of all these images and names that conjure up specific people and places, only the jet black African is given a name which has no meaning or identity? What does NUBIAN mean in this context? I doubt that the Egyptians actually used this term and probably gave something more descriptive than that. As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
Come now, Doug. We are all too familiar with the 'Nubian' label and its uses by Western scholars.
But it wasnt a western scholar that posted it. Somebody took the time to research these images and identify them with various ACTUAL peoples and nationalities from the time EXCEPT for the one of the black "Nubian", meaning WHAT LABEL did the Egyptians use for this guy? Was he a Kushite? Kushite being much more likely as it ACTUALLY EXISTED than a non existent entity called "Nubia".
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
20th Dynasty, Ramesses III (1184-1153 BC)
At this time there are recorded ties to southern Nubia, as far south as the fort of Buhen, that lies just north of the Second Cataract on the Nile River. The local military power, which was neither the Hyksos nor the Kings of Thebes, but the King of Kush. A family covering five generations left inscriptions at Buhen and these show that the last two generations served the King of Kush. The Kushites captured Buhen during the 13th dynasty, and held it until Ahmose I recaptured it at the beginning of the 18th dynasty. It was stormed and recaptured by Kushites forces at the end of Egypt's 20th dynasty.
Over a period of nearly 2000 years, the fortifications seem to have been occupied by a succession of different cultures (Egyptians, Kushites, and the Meroitic peoples) without the need for major reconstruction.
The erection of the Aswan High Dam in 1964 has fully submerged Buhen, and all the other monuments along this stretch of the Nile River, under Lake Nasser.
Source:
The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, by Ian Shaw (2003) .
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quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Boston Museum
Glazed tiles from Medinet Habu. Medinet Habu was the mortuary temple of Ramesses III and is located on the west bank opposite Thebes. They represent the neighbours of Egypt. They are Nubian, Philistine, Amorite, Syrian and Mitani.
Nubian
Philistine
Amorite
Syrian
Mitani
Ramesses III
.
I don't think that image for Mitanni is true. That actually looks like a Libyan mulatto. Mitanni were blond haired blue eyed peoples/
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
20th Dynasty, Ramesses III (1184-1153 BC)
At this time there are recorded ties to southern Nubia, as far south as the fort of Buhen, that lies just north of the Second Cataract on the Nile River. The local military power, which was neither the Hyksos nor the Kings of Thebes, but the King of Kush. A family covering five generations left inscriptions at Buhen and these show that the last two generations served the King of Kush. The Kushites captured Buhen during the 13th dynasty, and held it until Ahmose I recaptured it at the beginning of the 18th dynasty. It was stormed and recaptured by Kushites forces at the end of Egypt's 20th dynasty.
Over a period of nearly 2000 years, the fortifications seem to have been occupied by a succession of different cultures (Egyptians, Kushites, and the Meroitic peoples) without the need for major reconstruction.
The erection of the Aswan High Dam in 1964 has fully submerged Buhen, and all the other monuments along this stretch of the Nile River, under Lake Nasser.
Source:
The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, by Ian Shaw (2003) .
So this guy was a kushite then? As there was no nubia and because the Egyptians nor the people in question used the term, you should understand why I am asking for something more meaningful than a modern label that has been applied to them by foreigners. Something like Kushite or Meroite has more meaning context and is of greater historical value than "nubian".
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