As there was no Nubia and because the Egyptians nor the people in question used the term, you should understand why I am asking for something more meaningful than a modern label that has been applied to them by foreigners. Something like Kushite or Meroite has more meaning context and is of greater historical value han "Nubian".
This is correct. I like when authors use Kushite and Meroite, but we have to be aware that there were other groups also. The modern names of the Pan Grave and A-C Group cultures which names are just as bad. Academically, this is a very lazy way of identifying culture groups.
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This is correct. I like when authors use Kushite and Meroite, but we have to be aware that there were other groups also. The modern names of the Pan Grave and A-C Group cultures which names are just as bad. Academically, this is a very lazy way of identifying culture groups.
It could be laziness, lack of sufficient knowledge on the complexity of the Nile Valley regions in question or both, and/or it could be purposeful; the latter would require generalized non-indigenous and possibly non-historic typological terms to apply to a region(s), where intra-variation and/or possible inter-affinity within and between [respectively] the typological constructs become concealed, while inter-variation between the types are pronounced.
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^ Although I can't help but to think this 'laziness' was in part due to the fact that these cultures lay to the south of Egypt.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^Absolutely. It was also based on a preconceived notion that the South had no history of any significance in its own right. Therefore Egypt and its development HAD to be a separate achievement from other African cultures. This is why no research was done in the South, especially to show any advanced culture could have existed there prior to Egypt, let alone influenced Egypt in any way. All the current research is showing exactly the opposite trend, that the developments along the Nile in Egypt were precisely a result of developments in social organization, kingship and cosmology from further South and West. This is consistent with the fact that modern humans have been living and developing cultures along the Nile longer than most any other place on the planet, with the Nile being a DIRECT connection to the ancestral homeland of human beings in Africa.
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^^^^^Dayum lol, he really DOES look like Bes. That's kind of spooky.
Hell, Khasekhemwy looks like Brah-man from the Martin show lol, and Narmer looks like Tek from that rap group Smyth and Wesson and lil Dap from Group Home.
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Kushite Statue Old Kingdom, Sixth Dynasty, 2300 BC New York, Metropolitan Museum of Art
This statue was excavated at Elkab, south of Luxor and belongs to a certain "royal acquaintance and high priest Nefershemem." Both the inscriptions and the archaeological context date it to the late old kingdom. The proportions of the limbs and highly schematic modeling of arm and leg musculature, along with the inclined face and small forehead, resemble features from the Kushite Period.
Photo and text from Sudan Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, p. 47
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: so djehuti what's so damn significant about this tomb?
It was Doug who posted pics of the tomb not I.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Late Period, after 600 BC
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Is it just me or Bes strikingly resembles American boxer James TONEY in this pic:
Not to me. Bes statue has larger eyes, more prominent eyebrows and the lips and nose are closer together.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: ^^^^^Dayum lol, he really DOES look like Bes. That's kind of spooky.
Hell, Khasekhemwy looks like Brah-man from the Martin show lol, and Narmer looks like Tek from that rap group Smyth and Wesson and lil Dap from Group Home.
I don't know about all of that but I think Djoser looks like 50 cent except the nostrils aren't as wide and of course the ears.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Egyptian artwork should probably called the white racist's nightmare considering the blatant African depictions!
I take it that those same people who claim the Egyptians weren't black have seen very little Egyptian art!
I remember a thread years ago we posted a picture of a New Kingdom funerary wall painting, to which the silly troll Hore said something like "you should go digging in Nubia for more stuff like that". He actually thought the depiction of all those black people were "Nubians"! LOL
To be honest, in my experience people come to different conclusions about this when looking at artwork. I've met both people who were convinced that Egyptian artwork depicted black people and people who use artwork as evidence AGAINST the Black Egypt argument. Artwork is notoriously subject to varying personal interpretations.
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^ I agree Tyranno, for the following reason(s):
* Art is subjective.
** This facilitates the ability of people to see what they want to see.
Modern Europeans have a whole history of twisted vanities where they create delusional images of themselves and of others.
If it flatters their vanity, they well see themselves as Africans, [Ancient Egyptians] as Indians [native americans and India/Indian such as Ben Kingsley = Gandhi], as Japanese [Tom Cruise is the last Samurai], or whatever they envy, admire or lust after.
The above isn't trivial.
One of the rationale enabled by the defunct caucazoid race definition, which is given a polygenic [more than one] origin, in Europe, Asia, Africa, and sometimes Polynesia, is that Europeans may thus attribute to themselves all the civilisations of the world by *racial* affinity.
That these civilisations were supposedly created by the 'caucasoid race' at a time when Europeans were uniformly savage is held in the Eurocentric duplicitous psyche as a form of irony, and argumentative "difficulty", as opposed to the desparate lunacy it actually is.
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^ LOL A universal human notion of high and pomp.(?)
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I agree Tyranno, for the following reason(s):
* Art is subjective.
** This facilitates the ability of people to see what they want to see.
Modern Europeans have a whole history of twisted vanities where they create delusional images of themselves and of others.
If it flatters their vanity, they well see themselves as Africans, [Ancient Egyptians] as Indians [native americans and India/Indian such as Ben Kingsley = Gandhi], as Japanese [Tom Cruise is the last Samurai], or whatever they envy, admire or lust after.
The above isn't trivial.
One of the rationale enabled by the defunct caucazoid race definition, which is given a polygenic [more than one] origin, in Europe, Asia, Africa, and sometimes Polynesia, is that Europeans may thus attribute to themselves all the civilisations of the world by *racial* affinity.
That these civilisations were supposedly created by the 'caucasoid race' at a time when Europeans were uniformly savage is held in the Eurocentric duplicitous psyche as a form of irony, and argumentative "difficulty", as opposed to the desparate lunacy it actually is.
That may well be, but when you have tomb paintings showing the Egyptian people in their obvious dark brown (black) coloring or even those depicting stereotypical features like round noses and full lips etc. and Eurocentrics still call these "caucasians", would that not border on psychosis??
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Below, a very large Kushite Queen; non-Nilotic or east African type and more southern African, wouldn't you say?
Wally, what about the Candace above makes her "non-Nilotic", or how is Nilotic not an east African type. Or how is she "southern African"??
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^^ I think that the politically influential woman's stoutness feature is more often associated with the Central/Southern part of the continent than in East Africa nowadays in many people's mind. Don't know how accurate is this assumption though.
Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL also pointed out the existence of this feature in Saharan art as well as in Predynastic Egypt, and the only depiction of the Puntite Queen seems to show it as well.
posted
Yes, but would the depiction of the Puntite Queen as well as modern day East African women of afluence who are also plump in shape refute the notion that such is associated with 'southern' African types only?
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes, but would the depiction of the Puntite Queen as well as modern day East African women of afluence who are also plump in shape refute the notion that such is associated with 'southern' African types only?
I believe the [Midogbe's] point was that it is not an uncommon feature in many African societies, and hence Midogbe writes:
Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL also pointed out the existence of this feature in Saharan art as well as in Predynastic Egypt, and the only depiction of the Puntite Queen seems to show it as well.
The keywords being 'as well'.
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1) Symbols of state, ie fans, rings, poles, jewels crowns and wide dress.
2) Wide flared dress as a sign of power, authority and beauty. One is real and the other is similac.
The point I was making is the symolic and literal apparatus of state for European royal women traces directly back to Africa. Also, the symbolism of Europeans conquering the black globe is ALSO part of the tradition of European royal portraiture. The Europeans understood this symbolism so well that they made extra effort to steal them from the Africans: obelisks, benin bronzes and other artifacts were all PURPOSELY obtained by military conquest as symbolizing their DOMINATION of the black globe, symbolically and literally. This allows them to REP about beatdowns on Africans as part of their prestige and heraldry. Therfore, using the symbolism of chess, the queen becomes the most powerful figure on the board, making moves and taking over under her right to rule, forcing all vanquished foes (blacks) to kneel at her feet (Queen of England).
quote: Djehuti wrote: Wally, what about the Candace above makes her "non-Nilotic", or how is Nilotic not an east African type. Or how is she "southern African"??
Djehuti, This may seem difficult to explain to someone who's not African but is simple in fact; as an African (American), I can descern immediately the various physical distinctions amongst my own people. I can know immediately if a Black person that I meet is from Somalia, Nigeria, or Zimbabwe; and I am certain that I am not the only Black person on the planet with this ability. The type portrayed of the Kandakas (Candaces) on the murals of Kush, show a specific African type, a type that is found most often amongst the Shona, Ndebele, etc. women of southern Africa. Now, while this type can be found amongst ALL Black populations, it is the exception rather than the rule. The typical Masai woman or the typical Wolof woman doesn't exhibit this image, whereas the typical Ndebele woman does.
Some Ndebele women ...and these Ndebele are some FINE women!!
Some of the prettiest Black women I have known are from South Africa...This is, I guess, a good example for the argument that Africans should write African history... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: [QB] Some Roman depictions of Neteru: I-II century AD depiction of Anubis:
^ The reason why such composite or hybrid statues of gods that featured animal heads were mocked and poked fun at by the Greeks is that they simply did not understand the concept of totemism. In Greek mythology like almost all Indo-European myths, the gods were strictly anthropomorphic or human in form. In Greek myth the only beings with animal heads were demons or monsters like the minotaur; although the latter creatures may have likely been deities in their own right during more ancient times. Interestingly the only Indo-European speaking people who do worship totemic zoomorphic deities are in India which may be a vestige of earlier religions.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kushite Statue Old Kingdom, Sixth Dynasty, 2300 BC New York, Metropolitan Museum of Art
This statue was excavated at Elkab, south of Luxor and belongs to a certain "royal acquaintance and high priest Nefershemem." Both the inscriptions and the archaeological context date it to the late old kingdom. The proportions of the limbs and highly schematic modeling of arm and leg musculature, along with the inclined face and small forehead, resemble features from the Kushite Period.
Photo and text from Sudan Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, p. 47
.
However, also note that this is purely an Egyptian from the 6th dynasty and not a Kushite from the 25th.
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Were these portraits of the ptolemy rulers or the average Egyptian? They look very similar to modern egyptians, and dynastic egypt didn't end that far behind the ptolemy rule. These portraits either crushes the notion of nordic like greeks, or tropical like Egyptians. But i think it portraits the Greeks going by their clothes and stature.
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More portraits from Fayum during Greco-roman period.
This boy looks extremly modern egyptian
Another typical Cairo phenotype
I personally believe now that modern lower Egyptians are more heavily mixed with greeks and romans rather than arabs, going by this well done portraits.
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Well those were Greco Roman portraits of Greco Roman Egyptians. What do you expect? Likewise, Ausar himself has said here in the past that up to 2 million Greeks occupied Alexandria at one point. That is a substantial number of foreigners in Egypt if it is true. Either way
This:
is not that
by any stretch of the imagination.
The latter existed at least 1,000 years prior to the former, which makes one irrelevant to the other.
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^I realize this is a personal belief, and understand it within that context, but on a substantive basis, it wouldn't be so according to this:
Ok, is it possible that it's on the maternal side then? Since according to other sources lower egypt had a considerable amount of greco-roman settlers especially in the oasis, they can't all just have moved back. Also greeks carry a good amount of e3b so maybe that's why it's hard to diffirentiate?
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Base of cartonnage foot case showing two bound captives. By their colouring, the person on the left might represent a Syrian as one type of northern foreigner, while the figure on the right might represent a Greek or Roman. date: early Roman Period
Does anyone know why this site assumes the right character to be a Roman captive? Do we have other representations of Roman captives in Roman Egyptian (!) art?
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Ok, is it possible that it's on the maternal side then? Since according to other sources lower egypt had a considerable amount of greco-roman settlers especially in the oasis, they can't all just have moved back. Also greeks carry a good amount of e3b so maybe that's why it's hard to diffirentiate?
Egyptians carry little of the M78 'clusters' prevalent in Asian minor, and Europe. They carry northeast African derivatives, not to mention undifferentiated and older M78 lineages. This is according to Cruciani et al. 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Hawara, Roman Period mummy footcase, UC 28118
Base of cartonnage foot case showing two bound captives. By their colouring, the person on the left might represent a Syrian as one type of northern foreigner, while the figure on the right might represent a Greek or Roman. date: early Roman Period
Does anyone know why this site assumes the right character to be a Roman captive?
Maybe the webmaster believes the Romans were black.
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye (one of a few throne paintings that have been badly damaged but were once in fairly good condition when Europeans started researching):
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Were these portraits (Greco-Roman) of the ptolemy rulers or the average Egyptian? They look very similar to modern egyptians, and dynastic egypt didn't end that far behind the ptolemy rule.
Neither. The Faiyum portraits represent the children of Greek nobility and other wealthy Greek families who intermarried with native Egyptians. The Ptolemies themselves did NOT mix with natives but on the contrary tried very much to keep their Greek lineages 'pure' from any foreign blood, going so far as committing incest. And of course these portraits were not of "average" Egyptians either, since most Egyptians were neither that wealthy nor mixed with the Greek colonists who were still a small minority.
quote:These portraits either crushes the notion of nordic like greeks, or tropical like Egyptians. But i think it portraits the Greeks going by their clothes and stature.
LOL I believe the Greeks' own artwork and portraits (in Greece proper) as well as they themselves crush the silly notion of "nordic" Greeks. Also, Egyptians are indigenous Africans with Egypt itself being in the subtropics. So I don't know how the notion of Egyptians being tropically adapted (black) Africans can ever be crushed.
^ Two average Egyptian boys.
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From the tomb of Nefersekheru from 18th dynasty reign of Amenhotep I:
Red, White and Blue theme from the early Eighteenth dynasty.
(note the multi color belt, almost gucci like on the one diety in the upper right register)
Text from the chamber attaching the spirit or soul of the deceased with the eternal life force:
quote: Isis, the great, the God's mother, Hornedjheritef, Anubis, before the hall of the gods, Imiut, Lord of the sacred land, the Great Ennead, the small annead So that they give: transfiguration in the heavens through Re, power on Earth through Geb, An offerings to the dead for the transfiguration before the Lords of Eternity A going out and coming in at the necropolis, that he is not rejected at the two doors of the Duat, For the Ka of the Osiris, scribe of the treasury, Nefersekheru, justified. ..... An offering which the king gives to: Osiris, First of the West, the Great God, Ruler of the living, Isis, the Great, the God's mother, Mistress of Heaven, Mistress of the Two Lands, Anubis, Lord of the cavernous openings, Imiut, Lord of the exalted land. So that they may be transfigured in the heavens through Re, have power on Earth through Geb, and justification through the great god. For the Ka of the Osiris, the deputy administrator of the treasury of the Lord of the Two Lands in the southern city [Thebes], Nefersekheru, justified, the worthy. .... [An offering which the king gives to Osiris, First of the West, Wennefer,] the Lord of the Sacred land, the Great God, Ruler of Abydos, the Ruler in the Necropolis, the great in Busiris, the eldest in [Heracleopolis], who is in the tomb hills, the First of the horizon. Who is with the atef-crown, who came from his mothers body, whose body the uraeus snake decorates, the Ba with the secret face in his Ennead of gods, who is in the hills of the western-mountains, the Lord of Praise, to whom obeisance is made. One kisses the earth at the place where he is, the Lord of embodiment with numerous manifestations, from his thought everything, which is, arose. ... missing section ... May you grant that I am in the entourage of your Ka, that I am associated with your praises and that I accompany those who are transfigured, that I survive in peace, as they survive; the Osiris, scribe of the divine offering of all the gods, Nefersekheru. .... An offering, which the king gives to Atum, Lord of the Two Lands, the One of Heliopolis, Ptah-Sokar, who is in the Sektit ("the evening barque of the sun"), Nefertem-Horhekenu, and all gods of the necropolis. May they give: a blessed spirit in the heavens, power on Earth, and justification to me.<br> So that I may sit like they sit and stand like they stand. So that my name is known like one of them, like the beautiful transfigured ones in the necropolis. For the Ka of the Osiris, the real scribe of the king, whom he prefers, the deputy administrator of the treasury of the Lord of the Two Lands of the city ("Thebes"), Nefersekheru, justified. Through his beloved sister, the chantress of Amun, Nefertiri, justified in peace.
quote:LOL I believe the Greeks' own artwork and portraits (in Greece proper) as well as they themselves crush the silly notion of "nordic" Greeks. Also, Egyptians are indigenous Africans with Egypt itself being in the subtropics. So I don't know how the notion of Egyptians being tropically adapted (black) Africans can ever be crushed
I guess it would have to be 'crushed' based on doubtfull art interpretation from the Ptolemiac era, since we know based upon anthropology that pre dynastic and dynastic kmt were tropically adapted and the Ptolemiac era 'royal' [imposters] are not representative of them.
Ok, back to the picture show.... Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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That may well be, but when you have tomb paintings showing the Egyptian people in their obvious dark brown (black) coloring or even those depicting stereotypical features like round noses and full lips etc. and Eurocentrics still call these "caucasians", would that not border on psychosis??
...and these Ndebele are some FINE women!!![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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