quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".
I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!
Stupid Bitch get lost.
Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.
No he is right, you are just a complete ignoramus at this point to ignore all the evidence and all the picture and murals depicting black moors, and large numbers of them.
And no the original peoples of the Arabian peninsula were most definitely black. There are even Black Arabs online that are saying this stuff too; so were the original Xia and Shang dynasties. And again there are even Chinese archaeologists and "WHITE EUROPEANS" saying that too.
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.
As with lamin, after a time of listening to nonsense drivel from a "Self" so-call African, one has to wonder if this African is really an African at all.
Note that this fool has just said that Arabs were/are NOT BLACK!
Would an African really say that?
I'm more African than you'll ever be... but then again, you absurdly claim that you're also partly black European. LOL! The Arabs [before the time of the prophet] were not black. There are black Arabs -- but these are Arabized people, the same way that the Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqis have been Arabized.
posted
I have a feeling he has been sent here to divide and twist up the forum so we all end up going against each other.
I also have a strong feeling that this guy and Lioness didn't like the thread where I posted all those quotes of White European explorers mistaking and confusing albino's of other races for white Europeans and subsequently proving that they are albino's...
So in order to recuperate, these trolls, no doubt working for some agency, have been sent here to cause chaos and confusion. Just like itrump started spamming the forum right when I made some recent posts.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] ^ MAURITANIE - Un Grand Chef Maure et sa suite (Soudan) - très bon état
MAURITANIA - A Grand Chef Moor and his retinue (Sudan) - very good condition
Sudan 1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, literally "country of the blacks" (originally the stretch of Africa between the Sahara and the equator), from sud, plural of aswad (fem. sauda) "black." In early use also Soudan, from French. Related: Sudanese.
Mauritania means "country of the blacks".
Dunce, you get the flow...?
jackass, did you put up as caption or any link to the picture? No Furthermore it doesn't matter what mauritania means, we are looking at a picture, it's self expalnatory
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Frontispiece from Thomas Pellow's slave narrative (1890) his captivity began at the age of eleven when sailing abroad in the summer of 1716
Thomas Pellow (1704 – ?) was a British author best known for the extensive slave narrative entitled The History of the Long Captivity and Adventures of Thomas Pellow in South-Barbary…Pellow's chronicles his many adventures spent during his 23-year-long captivity (summer 1716–July 1738) as he was groomed from a young boy into an elite military slave in the Moroccan empire. Pellow's narrative gives a detailed account of his capture of Barbary pirates, his experiences as a slave under Sultan Moulay Ismail, and his final escape from Morocco back to his Cornish origins.
According to Pellow's account, his captivity began at the age of eleven when sailing abroad in the summer of 1716 when his ship was attacked by Barbary pirates after crossing the Bay of Biscay. Pellow travelled with his uncle, John Pellow, who was the ship's captain alongside five Englishman. Pellow and his shipmates were taken captive and delivered to Sultan Mulai Ismail of Morocco as prisoners. Pellow was one of the individuals handed over to the sultan, and consequently, he spent the next twenty-three years as a captive in Morocco.
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Full text of "The adventures of Thomas Pellow, of Penryn, mariner, three and twenty years in captivity among the Moors
I had several Moors and two Blacks for my companions
The slavery of the times to which we refer was dismal in the extreme. Compared with the toil to which thousands of English sailors were put, the life of the negroes in the Southern States of America was a pleasure.
Sickness, which soon overtook the whites unused to such toil in such a climate, was not considered any plea for relief, and many a poor fellow worked under the stimulus of the stick until he fell down, and was carried oflf to die. They were beaten on the slightest provocation or out of mere wantonness, and the most insulting epithets hurled at the poor wretches, in any language of which the drivers happened to have picked up a few words. The daily toil over, they were housed in damp underground cellars, or " Matamoras," or in open sheds exposed to the rain or snow, which in winter sometimes falls to a considerable depth in Fez and Mequinez, where ice an inch thick is by no means unknown. Even there they were not always free of annoyance, by the baser order amusing themselves by throwing stones and clods of dirt at them. "Kaffir!" or " Unbeliever," was about the mildest word addressed to them, and as an Arab generally applies this term to his donkey in the interval of whacks, the opprobriousness of the epithet may be imagined.
I was, on some advices brought to Mequinez from the mountain Ceedehamsoe, directly again summoned to arms, and with the army (consisting of one hundred thousand Blacks and fifty thousand Moors) obliged to march thither ; for that Muley Abdallah was there, and that he had there about him a vast army of the mountaineers, which indeed we soon found far to exceed our numbers.
Yet I did not think fit to lodge in the town, but retired at nights to a cave about a musket-shot without, where I had several Moors and two Blacks for my companions ; and returning again at sunrising into the town, where, as not altogether caring to rely myself on my friends, I sought out an employ, and was hired by a baker to carry his bread round the town to his customers, through which means I got a sufficient subsistence, all this time looking sharp out for a vessel ; and though I found several, yet could I not meet with any so Christian-like commander as on any terms to carry me with him.
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The Moors had, however, no great liking for Ransom or Christians simply as slaves, though Muley ^^<=*p«- Ismail, for ostentation's sake, kept great numbers about him. Negroes were in every respect better servants — unless the captive happened to be a skilled artificer — and made no attempt to escape. This, it is needless to add, the captured Christians never ceased to regard as a possi- bility. Ransom was therefore what they were detained in the hope of bringing. The wealthier only could usually arrange for this being sent from home.
Christian slaves were numerous, and so it occasionally happened that the runaway managed not to attract attention. But if caught, the bastinado was about the mildest punishment he could expect. In Muley Ismail's day he would most likely have been tortured, or speared, and his captors been compelled with cruel irony to pay the Sultan for the loss he had sustained by the death of so presumptively valuable a piece of property.
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Though now inhabited by the poorest people, it bears like many houses in that street the traces of former grandeur. Over the alley passing under it is a Latin legend : —
" Miserere mei, Domine : a peccato, probo, Debito et morte SUBITA. Libera ME l.G. 18" —
and from a recess above the second floor projects the efigy of a Moor, a black naked man, with a turban and necklace of beads. This was evidently the notion enter- tained by the Scottish artist of 1618 regarding an African potentate belonging to the same race as Othello, who even yet, with a realism to which ethnology lends no coun- tenance, is represented by a negroised personage. The tradition attaching to this building is, that early in the reign of James L, a Scottish girl having bean captured by a Sallee Rover, became a favourite with the then Emperor of Morocco. Desirous of utilizing her influence for the benefit of her brother, she sent for him, and he, proving
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This short way of marrying his guards the Emperor frequently put in practice, by often ordering great numbers of people before him, whom he marries without any more ceremony than pointing to the man and woman and saying, " Hadi yi houd Hadi," that is to say, " That take That; " upon which the loving pair join together, and march off as firmly noosed as if they had been married by a Pope. He always yokes his best complexioned subjects to a black helpmate, and the fair lady must take up with a negro. But the Moors in general, who are not married by the Emperor's command, use a great deal of ceremony about it.
I went out immediately to them and asked what they wanted. They told me, to buy the black by my side ; and finding them to be very eager for a purchase, I seemed altogether as indifferent and unwilling about it, by which I screwed them at last to forty gold ducats.
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The rise of Muley Ismail — His character a mixture of vice and virtue and piety and cruelty....
The manner of his eating did not differ from the ordinary Moors. His other travelling utensils were two or three guns, a sword or two, and two lances, because one broke once as he was murdering. Both the swords and lances were carried with their points upwards. These were all carried by lusty fellows ; his boys carried short Brazil sticks, knotted cords for whipping, a change of clothes to shift when bloody, and a hatchet, two of which he took in a Portuguese ship, and the first time they were brought to him, killed a negro without any provocation, to try if they were good.
Although the natives of his dominions are whites, yet they are not so much esteemed by him as the blacks and the copper-coloured, to whom he commits the guard of his person, and was so fond of their breed, that he took care to mix them himself, by matching them to the best-com- plexioned of his female subjects."
Thus he took care to lay the foundation of his tawny nurseries, to supply his palace as he wanted, into which they were admitted very young, are taught to worship and obey that successor of their Prophet, and being nursed in blood from their infancy, become the executioners and ministers of their wrath, whose terrible commands they put in execution with as much zeal and fury as if they had received them immediately from Heaven.
Alcaydes trembled at the very sight of them, and the Emperor seemed to take a great deal of pleasure, and placed much of his safety in them, for they surrounded him almost wherever he was. They are of all ranks and degrees ; some were the sons of his chief Al- caydes, others picked up by chance, or taken from a large negro town joining to Mequinez,* which the Emperor had filled with families of blacks and tawnies for his use. If they were well looked and strong, they needed no other quality ; some who had relations that were able were fed, clothed, and lodged by them ; others who had not were lodged in the outskirts of the palace, in great rooms, where they pigged an hundred or two together. They wore only a short and small coat without sleeves, which did not reach to their knees ; their heads were shaved and always exposed to the sun, for he affected to breed them hard. Most, and sometimes all of them, were employed in his buildings, where they took off their clothes, and laying them all in a heap, every one took a basket and removed earth, stones, or wood ; when they had done, he ordered them to go to his Jew and receive so much soup ; the next day they appeared gay and under arms.
He beat them in the cruelest manner imaginable, to try if they were hard ; sometimes you should see forty or fifty of them all sprawling in their blood, none of them daring to rise till he left the place where they were lying, and if they were discountenanced and out of heart at this usage, they were of a bastard breed, and must turn out of his ser- vice. I never heard that he killed but three of them, one for a heinous crime, and two for hiding a piece of bread in the * Close to the Jews' quarter, but now dismantled.
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The principal officers of the Army of the Blacks assem- bled together, crying out, " Long live the King ! " and threatening death and destruction to every one who would not acknowledge him. Hamet Deby went out from the palace, to hear what they had to say. They told him they were deputed by the Army of the Blacks to assure him they were ready to execute his orders, and if necessary to shed their blood in his service. The King was so pleased with this deputation, that he gave these officers two hundred and twenty thousand ducats to distribute among the Black Army, and ordered that they should march immediately against the Alarbes of the province of Duquela, who had not acknowledged him.
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The second day I got thither, and delivered my charge to Amberk Foolan,* a black, the then Governor ; and by him the shipwrights were directly ordered to work, and to be as expeditious as possible.
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I punctually performed, we being all on horseback by four, and without any hurry got to Mequinez in good season, where I found Muley Abdallah at the head of an army consisting of 140,000 men, chiefly blacks, ready to march for Old Fez.
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(20) The Black Imperial Guard, p. 141.— The Bokhari— so-called from Al Bokhari, on whose Korannic commentaries they were sworn — deserve all the esteem in which they were held during Fellow's time, though they are no longer the backbone of the army, and by the formation of the "Askar" or regular force of infantry, organized on a European model, are, happily, incapable of playing the part of the Turkish Janissaries or Koman Pretorians which in former times made them so troublesome. They are, however, still the Sultan's guard, and a fine powerful body of men. Fellow, it seems to me, greatly magnifies the number of the force. When they were most powerful, their headquarters were at Mequinez, and they numbered from 13,000 to 15,000 ; but they are now a much less considerable force. Originally formed from the Sultan's hereditary slaves, brought from the Western Soudan, their blood is now considerably mixed, but they have lost little of the physique and courage of their race. In all the engagements of the Spanish war of 1859-60 they acquitted themselves like men, badly disciplined and infamously armed as they were — and are ; and at Isly these courageous negroes alone awaited the shock of the French. The Arabs and Berbers made a wild charge, fired off their flint-lock muskets, and then wheeled about, as their fashion is. But in Muley El Hassan's opinion they were too much of the nature of a double- edged tool, for they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but when things did not always go their own way were apt to chop round and change the succession.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.
His personal slave corp can't be compared to your everyday average enslaver. The sultan explicitly used blacks as his civil service. They were responsible for much of the country's infrastructure and after the sultan's death were the throne power for generations.
"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but when things did not always go their own way were apt to chop round and change the succession."
In plain language the succeeding rulers of Maroc were puppets of these black slaves
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
what about the Moroccans such as Moulay Ismaïl and all his slaves Were these Moroccan slave owners black? They are not Ottoamns
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.
Assuming that there is a primary source supporting his mother being a "negro slave" then he is as black as Obama is. Obama is considered to be America's first black president. So if that is the standard then a black ruler enslaved whites in Morocco. The Western Sahara and the Frontiers of Morocco By Robert Rézette, 1975 says Moulay Ismael's mother was Saharan. That doesn't necessarily mean entirely a deep rooted indigenous African but I don't know what primary sources are on this. I didn't see it in the Pellow book but could have missed it. Another book says his mother was a "negro slave". I would have to see a primary source of the period to be convinced.
Below, Moulay Ismail's black guard described as Sudanese:
quote: Textbooks on evolutionary psychology and biology cite the case of the Sharifian Emperor of Morocco, Moulay Ismael the Bloodthirsty (1672–1727) who was supposed to have sired 888 children. This example for male reproduction has been challenged and led to a still unresolved discussion. The scientific debate is shaped by assumptions about reproductive constraints which cannot be tested directly—and the figures used are sometimes arbitrary. Therefore we developed a computer simulation which tests how many copulations per day were necessary to reach the reported reproductive outcome. We based our calculations on a report dating 1704, thus computing whether it was possible to have 600 sons in a reproductive timespan of 32 years. The algorithm is based on three different models of conception and different social and biological constraints. In the first model we used a random mating pool with unrestricted access to females. In the second model we used a restricted harem pool. The results indicate that Moulay Ismael could have achieved this high reproductive success. A comparison of the three conception models highlights the necessity to consider female sexual habits when assessing fertility across the cycle. We also show that the harem size needed is far smaller than the reported numbers.
--Oberzaucher E, Grammer K (2014) The Case of Moulay Ismael - Fact or Fancy? PLoS ONE 9(2): e85292. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0085292
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Please, Obama's mum is NW Euro. Ismail had no NW Euro parent. His father's impression portrait
The first place to look for Ismail's mother are our own independent minded historians like JA Rogers to build upon what our previous generations left us as inheritance.
Beside the above reference we have this from him on the progenitor
As far as Moulay-Ismail, this is how Mulay al-Rashid was described at the time: "He is of middle size; his face is long and thin; his beard, forked and white, []his color, almost black with a white mark near the nose" - Abbé Busnot, Histoire de Regne de Mouley Ismael, Roven, 1714
And don't act like you weren't around when we thoroughly went over the Bukhari
Sultan Maulay Ismail was not simply enslaving blacks. He was building a private army for himself with them.
The fact that we have is that the Moroccan 'Alawide sultan Mulay Isma'il conscripted all blacks (Muslim or non-Muslim, free or enslaved, Haratin or Gnawa) for his personal "'Abid al Bukhari" army whether they were abid or buakhar or not. He was opposed by many of Fez's ulema, the most vocal of whom he asassinated.
Some short shrift info on Moulay Ismail and the Abid al-Bukhari no more accurate than encyclopedia entries can be relied on. In 1673 Isma'il created the 'Abid (Black) al-Bukhari army known colloquially as buakhar and made up of slaves bought from their masters and enlisted into this army together with freeborn blacks. This contingent was provided with women, and the offspring of these unions were entered into special schools and given specialized military training. Toward the end of his reign he had a black army of more than 150,000 men, of whom about 70,000 were kept as a strategic reserve in and around Meknès. His army was equipped with European arms, and his officers learned to combine artillery with infantry effectively. He used these forces against the Ottomans in Algiers in the years 1679, 1682, and 1695/96 in expeditions designed to pacify his frontiers and to punish the regent of Algiers. In the end the Ottomans agreed to respect Moroccan independence.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.
Assuming that there is a primary source supporting his mother being a "negro slave" then he is as black as Obama is. Obama is considered to be America's first black president. So if that is the standard then a black ruler enslaved whites in Morocco. The Western Sahara and the Frontiers of Morocco By Robert Rézette, 1975 says Moulay Ismael's mother was Saharan. That doesn't necessarily mean entirely a deep rooted indigenous African but I don't know what primary sources are on this. I didn't see it in the Pellow book but could have missed it. Another book says his mother was a "negro slave". I would have to see a primary source of the period to be convinced.
Below, Moulay Ismail's black guard described as Sudanese:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".
I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!
Stupid Bitch get lost.
Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.
No he is right, you are just a complete ignoramus at this point to ignore all the evidence and all the picture and murals depicting black moors, and large numbers of them.
And no the original peoples of the Arabian peninsula were most definitely black. There are even Black Arabs online that are saying this stuff too; so were the original Xia and Shang dynasties. And again there are even Chinese archaeologists and "WHITE EUROPEANS" saying that too.
You are a disciple of that nut Mike, so you're in no position to call anyone an ignoramus. I already conceded that *some* of the Moors were black but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black and no one has provided any evidence that they were.
The Zhou, Xia and Shang dynasties were not black and no historian worthy of the name would claim that they were. I know that there are indigenous black people in Arabia like the Mahra, Shammar and the Tihama, and so I'll have to dig a little deeper.
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posted
Ordinarily a troll like Sudaniya would be banned. But because this is an unmoderated forum, trolls like Sudaniya think they can get away with trying to obfuscate facts and disrupting the exchange of knowledge and thinking. It is up to each of us to confront this troll FORCEFULLY! In time, like all the others, Sudaniya will go away.
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".
I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!
Stupid Bitch get lost.
Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.
No he is right, you are just a complete ignoramus at this point to ignore all the evidence and all the picture and murals depicting black moors, and large numbers of them.
And no the original peoples of the Arabian peninsula were most definitely black. There are even Black Arabs online that are saying this stuff too; so were the original Xia and Shang dynasties. And again there are even Chinese archaeologists and "WHITE EUROPEANS" saying that too.
You are a disciple of that nut Mike, so you're in no position to call anyone an ignoramus. I already conceded that *some* of the Moors were black but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black and no one has provided any evidence that they were.
The Zhou, Xia and Shang dynasties were not black and no historian worthy of the name would claim that they were. I know that there are indigenous black people in Arabia like the Mahra, Shammar and the Tihama, and so I'll have to dig a little deeper.
quote: The Banpo civilian used to be the hybrid of Nordish and Mongolian (like the Finn today). We all know, the Banpo is the representative civilization of the Northern China Neolithic civilizations, we can infer, many other Chinese civilizations in that time were created by Caucasian or mingled people.
The Hemudu in Zhejiang is the representative Neolithic civilization in Southern China. But after measuring the skulls detected there, it was extremely amazed that, they're of Negro characteristics!
quote: Were the Shang Dynasty People Black? Mike815 writes:
Yes, the Shang Dynasty people in Southern China people may well have been Negritos or maybe Melanesian types. That is well known.
The Australoid -> Mongoloid transition seems to have been later in Southern China and Vietnam than it was in the north, where it occurred much earlier, around 9,000 YBP.
In the South, the Australoid -> Mongoloid transition took place 2,300-4,500 YBP, and many Southeast Asians have not even fully transitioned but are still transitional types moving from Australoids towards Neomongoloids, that is, they are Paleomongoloids. There are figures on the Angkor Watt temples that look very much like Negrito or Melanesian people. These may well have been the basic Khmer type ~3,000-4,000 YBP.
Now the two guys saying this above me are "non-black" people, one is "white" the other one is a Chinese person from China. And that's just one tiny example of even "non-blacks" accepting and stating this stuff....
Then there is stuff like this:
And the above PICTURES DATE AFTER THE XIA DYNASTY! YES IT IS NOW BECOMING AN ACCEPTED FACT THAT THE ANCIENT XIA AND SHANG DYNASTY PEOPLE WERE A BLACK NEGRITO TYPE PEOPLE! YES IT IS A FACT ACCEPTED BY THE MAINSTREAM!
GET OVER IT AND STOP SPEWING YOUR STUPIDITY AND IDIOCY HERE! PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO PLAY US FOR DUMB ASSES YOU STUPID TROLL!
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posted
The big one is a nice picture from the Harvard library (reading the address) - too bad it doesn't say who the people are.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.
His personal slave corp can't be compared to your everyday average enslaver. The sultan explicitly used blacks as his civil service. They were responsible for much of the country's infrastructure and after the sultan's death were the throne power for generations.
"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but when things did not always go their own way were apt to chop round and change the succession."
In plain language the succeeding rulers of Maroc were puppets of these black slaves
If the succeeding Moroccan rulers were puppets of Sudanese slaves could it be said that blacks were the puppeteers of the enslavement of white Europeans?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Which blacks do you refer to?
Define your Berber Coast by its borders.
What do you mean Sudanese?
Which rulers and for how long?
Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th century cusp to enslave Euros?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.
His personal slave corp can't be compared to your everyday average enslaver. The sultan explicitly used blacks as his civil service. They were responsible for much of the country's infrastructure and after the sultan's death were the throne power for generations.
"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but when things did not always go their own way were apt to chop round and change the succession."
In plain language the succeeding rulers of Maroc were puppets of these black slaves
I'll put this more simply. Above you refer to blacks.
Did blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Blacks? Not any particular blacks? Please specify as did I.
Why the shift in goalpost? Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???
Meanwhile, left unanswered:
quote:Which blacks do you refer to?
Define your Berber Coast by its borders.
What do you mean Sudanese?
Which rulers and for how long?
Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th century cusp to enslave Euros?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.
His personal slave corp can't be compared to your everyday average enslaver. The sultan explicitly used blacks as his civil service. They were responsible for much of the country's infrastructure and after the sultan's death were the throne power for generations.
"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but when things did not always go their own way were apt to chop round and change the succession."
In plain language the succeeding rulers of Maroc were puppets of these black slaves
I'll put this more simply. Above you refer to blacks.
Did blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Blacks? Not any particular blacks? Please specify as did I.
Why the shift in goalpost? Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???
Meanwhile, left unanswered:
I intend the question to be the broader, any blacks, the entire Maghreb
Did blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Until you clarify and specify your question per the points I queried it is much too open ended to have any precise meaning and would be used in entirely inapplicable circumstances by yourself which is exactly why you keep dodging:
quote:Blacks? Not any particular blacks? Please specify as did I.
Why the shift in goalpost? Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???
Previously left unanswered: Which blacks do you refer to?
Define your Berber Coast by its borders.
What do you mean Sudanese?
Which rulers and for how long?
Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th century cusp to enslave Euros?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Until you clarify and specify your question per the points I queried it is much too open ended to have any precise meaning and would be used in entirely inapplicable circumstances by yourself which is exactly why you keep dodging:
quote:Blacks? Not any particular blacks? Please specify as did I.
Why the shift in goalpost? Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???
Previously left unanswered: Which blacks do you refer to?
Define your Berber Coast by its borders.
What do you mean Sudanese?
Which rulers and for how long?
Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th century cusp to enslave Euros?
Did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
This is a straightforward good and reasonable question.
You seem to want to avoid it.
You are asking diversionary details now, trying to test me and so on. It's irrelevant.
What you are doing now is as if I asked if an apple is a fruit and then you asking me what size of apple am I referring to. The question is irrelevant to the topic.
You start with the broader them and details come later.
I aks you is there any life on Mars and you say, ":do you mean that walks on two legs or four ?"
That is simply avoidance. Just say you prefer not to answer the question rather than going through these rhetorical games and testings.
If you want people to learn form this thread answer the question rather than using it as an excuse to show off tangental details on the region you know
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
In recent months we have evaluated the term black. So I agree that lioness needs to be more specific. Which blacks do you refer at?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Indeed, blacks inhabit all the lands bordering the Indian Ocean though none so exclusively as the bulk of Africa continent.
I don't at all go for the 'West Africa forest true negro is the only black' 19th century horseshit currently floating and championed on ES thus 'AEs and others aren't black' neo-Hamiticism pseudo-argument.
We all know the Lioness' game. None of we a want fe play it. Tricks are for kids or fools who fall for them.
Unable to clarify, specify, or qualify her questions proves the Lioness is unknowledgable on the matter that bred her questioning of what I posted.
I have no doubt are learning from posts that the Lioness wants to counter with her trivial irrelevant unfocusing questions. Yes, folk are learning from them and the related bumped threads. If not then let them say so themselves not illogical grandstanding that's supposed to goad me into letting the Lioness of the hook for fronting.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.
The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Until you clarify and specify your question per the points I queried it is much too open ended to have any precise meaning and would be used in entirely inapplicable circumstances by yourself which is exactly why you keep dodging:
quote:Blacks? Not any particular blacks? Please specify as did I.
Why the shift in goalpost? Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???
Previously left unanswered: Which blacks do you refer to?
Define your Berber Coast by its borders.
What do you mean Sudanese?
Which rulers and for how long?
Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th century cusp to enslave Euros?
Did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
This is a straightforward good and reasonable question.
You seem to want to avoid it.
You are asking diversionary details now, trying to test me and so on. It's irrelevant.
What you are doing now is as if I asked if an apple is a fruit and then you asking me what size of apple am I referring to. The question is irrelevant to the topic.
You start with the broader them and details come later.
I aks you is there any life on Mars and you say, ":do you mean that walks on two legs or four ?"
That is simply avoidance. Just say you prefer not to answer the question rather than going through these rhetorical games and testings.
If you want people to learn form this thread answer the question rather than using it as an excuse to show off tangental details on the region you know
Were those black people in the Maghreb not slaves themselves!? Moulay Ismail enslaved blacks, conscripted them and used them for his own purposes, so you can't even begin to equate this with the actions of Europeans that were under no duress when they enslaved millions of black people.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I am not writing anything in this thread for you. I don't want to convince you of anything and am quite happy to leave you wallowing in See no evil Hear no evil Speak no evil self blissful willing ignorance.
Anyone who can look at that clipping of the Riffian seaman and deny he is a N Afr black is beyond rational thought and conversation.
Ditto this picture postcard explicitly labeled Morocco RIF pirates.
Something else is going on beside trying to ascertain composition elements of Barbary Corsairs when their black element is like I see 'em but I ain't gonna blieve 'em!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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What is the provenance of the postcard? I need the year in which it was released and a source affirming its authenticity. The fact that you could only get two pictures (first one indefinite) demonstrates that they were probably just forcefully conscripted just like the slave soldiers in Moulay Ismail's army.
This is what the Barbary pirates looked like -- a handful of "elements" notwithstanding.
A Barbary pirate, Pier Francesco Mola 1650
Stephen Decatur boarding a Tripolitan gunboat during a naval engagement, 3 August 1804
Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.
Picking the favorite -- Giulio Rosati (1858-1917)
Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, the last of the Barbary Pirates.
Painting of a 19th Century Arab slave market. 1884
Painting shows a young pre-teen white European male chained and lead with a black slave to the slave market by their Muslim slave captors.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I don't suffer fools.
I give two previously posted sources, one stamped NYPL, specific to RIF Pirates and you come back with Orientalist art and other pieces having absolutely nothing to do with RIF PIRATES.
Yes, that's trolling and I have no time to feed trolls.
You don't know enslaved one's in Muslim society at the time under ddiscussion could and did own slaves of their own and could and did command freeborn ppersons.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.
The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.
I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I don't suffer fools.
I give two previously posted sources, one stamped NYPL, specific to RIF Pirates and you come back with Orientalist art and other pieces having absolutely nothing to do with RIF PIRATES.
Yes, that's trolling and I have no time to feed trolls.
You don't know enslaved one's in Muslim society at the time under ddiscussion could and did own slaves of their own and could and did command freeborn ppersons.
No, the pictures I provided relate directly to the Barbary pirates. I have no intention of engaging people that so desperately wish that blacks enslaved Europeans when it was Arabs and coastal Berbers that enslaved Europeans.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.
The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.
I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.
What is so "shocking" about somebody else having a completely different view to myself? This is the first time that I heard of that character, and I dare anyone to match my IP address with that man's IP address. Some idiot comes out and claims that somebody is so and so and people believe it without any evidence? Check my IP address from when I first posted on this site and then check the IP address of Thamm when he first started posting on ESR.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.
. Lying crotch rotted Bitch or Faggot, whichever fits:
You were warned: yet you return here showing portraits painted by your fellow Albinos, intended to make pathetic Albinos like yourself feel at home in a Black world.
Doesn't anyone wonder WHY that one portrait of the (probable TURK) Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud is splattered all over Albino media?
It feeds the Albino fantasy of an Albino world, created by Albinos, for the COMFORT of Albinos!
The Sultan used whoever he thought would be helpful - REGARDLESS of ethnicity!
Here is another Moroccan Ambassador, lets see if Albinos make the same fuss over him.
Haj Abdelkader Perez was a Moroccan Admiral and an ambassador to England in 1723 and again in 1737. On 29 August 1724, he met with king George II and the Prince of Wales. His Spanish family name indicates his descent from morisco refugees.
Now get lost you pathetic degenerate liar.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.
. Lying crotch rotted Bitch or Faggot, whichever fits:
You were warned: yet you return here showing portraits painted by your fellow Albinos, intended to make pathetic Albinos like yourself feel at home in a Black world.
Doesn't anyone wonder WHY that one portrait of the (probable TURK) Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud is splattered all over Albino media?
It feeds the Albino fantasy of an Albino world, created by Albinos, for the COMFORT of Albinos!
The Sultan used whoever he thought would be helpful - REGARDLESS of ethnicity!
Here is another Moroccan Ambassador, lets see if Albinos make the same fuss over him.
Haj Abdelkader Perez was a Moroccan Admiral and an ambassador to England in 1723 and again in 1737. On 29 August 1724, he met with king George II and the Prince of Wales. His Spanish family name indicates his descent from morisco refugees.
Now get lost you pathetic degenerate liar.
You're an idiot, Mike. People should actually be suspicious of you because you make Afrocentrism look like a laughing stock. Your campaign to claim that there were black Chinese dynasties, black Vikings and black Germans is laughable and taints efforts to reclaim ancient Nile valley civilization as a result. You are getting in the way. Unlike you, I'm actually from the Nile valley and your inane campaigns put my attempts to reclaim my heritage into disrepute.
That picture doesn't help you, dolt. It shows an Arab man (not a black man) and so you should take your own advice after taking your meds. You really are crazy.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Say what you will, but the fact still remains - if you post again, you will be attacked again. Please leave the forum.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Indeed, blacks inhabit all the lands bordering the Indian Ocean though none so exclusively as the bulk of Africa continent.
I don't at all go for the 'West Africa forest true negro is the only black' 19th century horseshit currently floating and championed on ES thus 'AEs and others aren't black' neo-Hamiticism pseudo-argument.
We all know the Lioness' game. None of we a want fe play it. Tricks are for kids or fools who fall for them.
Unable to clarify, specify, or qualify her questions proves the Lioness is unknowledgable on the matter that bred her questioning of what I posted.
I have no doubt are learning from posts that the Lioness wants to counter with her trivial irrelevant unfocusing questions. Yes, folk are learning from them and the related bumped threads. If not then let them say so themselves not illogical grandstanding that's supposed to goad me into letting the Lioness of the hook for fronting.
Using your definition of black as you have been did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
That is what everybody wants to know.
If I ask when were camels introduced to Africa are you then going to ask me "be specific what country are you talking about ?" or "what is definition of camel?" That is a diversionary game
Why don't you just tell me you prefer to not answer the question because you think I'm unqualified to ask it. That's your out
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Indeed, blacks inhabit all the lands bordering the Indian Ocean though none so exclusively as the bulk of Africa continent.
I don't at all go for the 'West Africa forest true negro is the only black' 19th century horseshit currently floating and championed on ES thus 'AEs and others aren't black' neo-Hamiticism pseudo-argument.
We all know the Lioness' game. None of we a want fe play it. Tricks are for kids or fools who fall for them.
Unable to clarify, specify, or qualify her questions proves the Lioness is unknowledgable on the matter that bred her questioning of what I posted.
I have no doubt are learning from posts that the Lioness wants to counter with her trivial irrelevant unfocusing questions. Yes, folk are learning from them and the related bumped threads. If not then let them say so themselves not illogical grandstanding that's supposed to goad me into letting the Lioness of the hook for fronting.
Using your definition of black as you have been did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
That is what everybody wants to know.
If I ask when were camels introduced to Africa are you then going to ask me "be specific what country are you talking about ?" or "what is definition of camel?" That is a diversionary game
Why don't you just tell me you prefer to not answer the question because you think I'm unqualified to ask it. That's your out
To the people of ES there is no "stereotype black". Except for a few like yourself.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.
The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.
I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.
What is so "shocking" about somebody else having a completely different view to myself? This is the first time that I heard of that character, and I dare anyone to match my IP address with that man's IP address. Some idiot comes out and claims that somebody is so and so and people believe it without any evidence? Check my IP address from when I first posted on this site and then check the IP address of Thamm when he first started posting on ESR.
The shocking part would have been, the change from here and there.
Most of what that person wrote is false info. As I am responding.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Say what you will, but the fact still remains - if you post again, you will be attacked again. Please leave the forum.
I will be "attacked"? Oh my, I'm so scared that a nut will "attack" me. No, think I'll stay and no amount of protestation from our resident crazy person will be convince me to leave.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.
The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.
I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.
What is so "shocking" about somebody else having a completely different view to myself? This is the first time that I heard of that character, and I dare anyone to match my IP address with that man's IP address. Some idiot comes out and claims that somebody is so and so and people believe it without any evidence? Check my IP address from when I first posted on this site and then check the IP address of Thamm when he first started posting on ESR.
The shocking part would have been, the change from here and there.
Most of what that person wrote is false info. As I am responding.
It would only have been a "shock" if he and I were the same person. I want an IP address check for both accounts - with the immediate release of the results on this forum.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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What is the provenance of the postcard? I need the year in which it was released and a source affirming its authenticity. The fact that you could only get two pictures (first one indefinite) demonstrates that they were probably just forcefully conscripted just like the slave soldiers in Moulay Ismail's army.
One could argue that no blacks were leaders of the slave trade of Europeans in North Africa. Now we look to the portrait of Moulay Ismail's father Moulay Al Sharif (Cherif ) ( "Muley Arsheid Zeriff") His sons include:
Moulay Ismail aka Moulay Ibn Sharif (same name as his father but add, full name Moulay Ismail ibn Sharif)
and
Moulay al-Rashid his half brother
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Please, Obama's mum is NW Euro. Ismail had no NW Euro parent. His father's impression portrait
^ This is supposed to be Moulay Ali Cherif (Sharif) (or "Muley Arsheid Zeriff") considered to have been the founder of the Alaouite Dynasty of Morocco. He is the father. He died in 1659
the artist was a Czechoslovakian named Wenceslaus Hollar his works number some 2740
The date of the print here as shown in the corner is 1670, eleven years AFTER Moulay Ali Cherif died and one year after the artist Wenceslaus Hollar visted Tangier
In other words, it is the likeness of Muley Arsheid Zeriff is in the imagination of the artist Tukuler knows this but didn't tell you
________________________________________________
^^^ This Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty. Again his father is sometimes also called Moulay Sharif but no Ibn or Islmail
He died in 1727
A year before he died the illustration was made, the 1726 German Edition of
A Journey to Mequinez; The Residence of the Present Emperor of Fez and Morocco. On the Occasion of Commodore Stewart’s Embassy Thither for the Redemption of the British Captives in the Year 1721.
Reise nach Mequinetz, Der Residentz des heutigen Käysers von Fetz und ... By John Windus 1726
Windus was a member of the British delegation, and was sent in 1721 by King George I to the court of the Moroccan ruler Mulai Ismael, to conclude a peace treaty and to rid the English slave. Morocco, heavily involved in the piracy of the North African states towards the Europeans, held at that time caught about 1,100 Christians. Stuart was able to sign a contract in Ceuta, whereupon 296 Englishmen (including 25 captains) have been released. - This book is one of the first travel works that report exclusively on Morocco, with interesting observations about the country and people, life at court, etc. - "No work on Marocco had hitherto Appeared in English, with the exception of the meager, West Barbary '(1671) of L. Addison The description of the manners of the people renders the book, a curiosity ',. pronounced as it what by Boswell "(Cox). - The partly folded several times copper with great views of Tetuan, Alcazar, Meknes (2), a Roman temple ruin and a plan of Fes. The copper engraved portrait of the ruler Muley Ismael missing in the English edition published in 1725. - Gay 1294; Paulitschke 692; Play Fair 342: Cox I, 370 (English edition); Kainbacher 454 ("very rare"). Tags: Morocco, Fez, Meknes
This is a portrait of Moulay Ismail Sharif's half brother Al-Rashid died in 1672
A collection of portraits of European, Asian and African royalty, and French ministers of state and nobility. The portraits include: 'Tun-Min, roy de la Chine'; 'Aureng-Zebe, roy des Indes orientales'; 'Xogun, empereur du Japon'; 'Idalcansi, roy de Gouzarata ou Camboya'; 'Le Grand Negus - ou Préte-Ian, empereur des Abissins'; 'Le grand roy Mono-Motapa'; 'Le Grand Mogul, ou l'empereur d'Indostan'; 'L'empereur de Calaminhan'; 'Le Grand Cam, ou empereur de Tartarie'; 'Mustapha Coul-Oglov, Grand Visir'; 'Coprogli-Achmet Pacha, Grand Vizir'; 'Le Grand Cherif Mouley Sémein ou Ismael, roy de Maroc'; 'Ioane Aléxovvitz [&] Peter Aléxovvitz Czars'; 'Cherif Muley-Arxid, roy de Tafilete, Fez, Maroc...'; 'Alexei-Michaelovits, Czaar et Grand Duc de Moscovie'; 'Le grand sultan Soliman, IIIe... empereur des Turcs'.
Larmessin's own portrait of Moulay Ismail Le Grand Cherif Mouley Sémein ou Ismael; Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif
posted
^Lioness, it is so good to see you and your fellow degenerate crotch rotted Albino Bitch sudaniya studiously discussing what are OBVIOUSLY CARICATURE Portraits.
Asshole bitches - real people don't look like that!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: real people don't look like that!
your comment makes no sense whatsoever, of course people look like that
There is information on the table. All you are doing is having an emotional outburst right now And the portraits are not even generic, they look like individuals and the portrait by John Windus, Windus was part of a British delegation who visited the court of Moulay Ismail in Morocco.
So fall back, you are not up to this, find some tissues
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