posted
^Ya, we're getting some real winners these days.
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Tukuler
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Anyone who bothered to read the bumpede Moor threads knows these aren't Moors. It's very trying to rehash this stuff instead of breaking new ground.
Well, most of them can read, that's a start. Perhaps in a few years, some might accidentally stumble onto something new. But break new ground, as in actual research - out of the question!
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Tukuler
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Moderns aren't medievals nor Renaissance art photos whether either near white or black. Moorish identity has nothing to do with all N Afrs throughout all time.
The only admissible moderns are Mauritanians. They call themselves Maurs. They live in the land of Almorabites and descend from the tribes of the Sanhadja Confederation. They are neither white nor near white in complexion like people are on fringe of the Mediterranean. They are not 'red ears.'
Ancient Mauretania was in what's today's northern Morocco and northern west to central Algeria.
Mauretania was named for the colour of its inhabitant's skin. Plug the Greek word Μαύρος into Google's translator. Don't be surprised when nigger pops up.
After 711 and centuries of occupation with miscegenation and conversion Europe wound up with * Black a Moors ('black as a Moor) * Tawny Moors * White Moors (used as an insult)
Eventually Europeans came to call any dark-skinned Muslims Moor as witness even Filipino Moro's.
These are etymology and anthropology facts. Beliefs are for religion.
Seriously, review all the Moor threads that is I mean if learning is truly the goal.
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Tukuler
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posted
No, the Moors were not even near white.
Originally posted October 08, 2011 by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7:
.
Are you going to show us where those red bearded Eurasitic Kurds or whatever they are you posted are called MOORS or Moro
.
The Hall of the Kings was named after the ten enigmatic individuals whose figures are illustrated on the dome above the main bedchamber. For many years the figures were incorrectly thought to depict leading members of the Nasrid dynasty; till the 19th century the chamber was known as the Hall of Justice owing to the fact that the figures were thought to be courtroom judges.
Nevertheless, it is generally understood that the scene is a realistic depiction of an activity that commonly took place there: a meeting of dignitaries in the presence of the Sultan or leading members of the Court.
The figures, whose features depict venerable westerners, are seen seated in traditional fashion and gesturing while having a lively conversation. They are ceremoniously dressed, bearing swords and wearing belts and Nasrid style turbans.
In fairness, a few Nasrid rulers were predominately Frankish in blood and sensitive of it they dyed at least their beards to black. Muslim "Spain" was diverse and cosmopolitan in many ways. ]
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No, the Moors were not even near white.
In you opinion to were the slave-masters of kidnapped Europeans in North Africa primarily black? And how far back do you think it goes?
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Tukuler
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What era?
Importation of European women into Maurusia goes back to the chalcolithic with the cordial pottery made by Iberian women. Cardinal workshops were found in the farthest north of today's Morocco.
Presumably Euro mtDNA goes back to the final few millennia of the Maurusian late and epi paleolithic eras.
That far back we really have no idea of Maurusian colour. The first written notice of their complexion is by Greeks and is after Rome city is founded. By that time Tamazight had moved up from the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan where it originated per Behrens and Williamson.
By the time of USA Barbary War Med N Afr was not predominantly black or heavily dark-skinned though they were still numerous until the 19th century, ttbomr.
Remember that in the Barbary era white Euros were selling their own people into slavery in the Americas. As late as 1858 4000 white orphans were sold, ironically enough, inside the Free Church in New York.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Remember that in the Barbary era white Euros were selling their own people into slavery in the Americas. As late as 1858 4000 white orphans were sold, ironically enough, inside the Free Church in New York.
Do you have a source for that?
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"
What you believe is irrelevant. Any Facts ?
You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.
There were no eurasian coming from the Iberia, its the other way around. Africans moved into the Iberia, then later that population was reduced, which shifted the demographics. Kel carry the highest frequency of the Berber gene, which is logic.
quote: "The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations (Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Where did the light-skinned people in North Africa come from if not Iberia? Western Asia? Thanks for that piece, I'll give it a read.
North Africa itself. The secret is in the ancient Iberian La Brana specimen. The alleles found for that light skin are in Africans.
I think climatology played roll in this.
Btw. The pictures you posted is not what Nortwest Africans look like on average. You posted images from 3000 years ago. Meaning 1000 BC., which is not that old. 1000 BC is when the first recorded invasions took place.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: "I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"
What you believe is irrelevant. Any Facts ?
You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.
.
So are Moors Black now?
Some of them were, but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black. It's a shame that we Africans kill ourselves as frequently and as cruelly as we do, but we cannot be accused of brutalizing and enslaving any other race. That has NEVER happened.
Bull crap. The evidence says different.
It doesn't matter what you say or claim. It still doesn't make sense. This event took place in Nort Africa, yet you blamed African Americans for this. African Americans are predominantly from West Africa, remember? So, this once again exposes how feeble you are in the head.
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Importation of European women into Maurusia goes back to the chalcolithic with the cordial pottery made by Iberian women. Cardinal workshops were found in the farthest north of today's Morocco.
Presumably Euro mtDNA goes back to the final few millennia of the Maurusian late and epi paleolithic eras.
That far back we really have no idea of Maurusian colour. The first written notice of their complexion is by Greeks and is after Rome city is founded. By that time Tamazight had moved up from the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan where it originated per Behrens and Williamson.
By the time of USA Barbary War Med N Afr was not predominantly black or heavily dark-skinned though they were still numerous until the 19th century, ttbomr.
Remember that in the Barbary era white Euros were selling their own people into slavery in the Americas. As late as 1858 4000 white orphans were sold, ironically enough, inside the Free Church in New York.
Yes, they traded them for salt and sugar.
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These people were still Black, still Negros like you,still of your race. Therefore ohh White people hating invader you are every bit as responsible. You like holding all Whites responsible for atrocities committed by some Whites in the past well two can play that game hehehehe.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
This damn mobile device substitutes words.
In my last post it changed CARDIAL into cordial and cardinal.
Nothing about the NA strip climate <2000 BCE would favor dark brown skin. Before the Sea Peoples Euros entered Tunisia from Italy and Maroc from Iberia. Trade items let us know this.
However, there is ttbomk no male European genetic ignature in Stone Age NA. NA.
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Troll Patrol,
These people were still Black, still Negros like you,still of your race. Therefore ohh White people hating invader you are every bit as responsible. You like holding all Whites responsible for atrocities committed by some Whites in the past well two can play that game hehehehe.
No they were not, you desperate idiot. They were Arabs and light skin Berbers and I showed you the people from where the Barbary pirates were stationed and they're not black. Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD and they started enslaving you in the 15th century.
We lost millions of square kilometers of Africa to the Arab invaders and yet you think that we should feel responsible for their crimes? You still haven't provided the requested evidence. Where is your evidence that black people enslaved Europeans for a thousand years? Where is your evidence that Barbary pirates were black? Provide evidence from reputable sources. And no, your Neo-Nazi websites don't count.
These are Barbary pirate:
A Barbary pirate, Pier Francesco Mola 1650
Stephen Decatur boarding a Tripolitan gunboat during a naval engagement, 3 August 1804
Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.
Picking the favorite -- Giulio Rosati (1858-1917)
Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, the last of the Barbary Pirates.
Painting of a 19th Century Arab slave market. 1884
Painting shows a young pre-teen white European male chained and lead with a black slave to the slave market by their Muslim slave captors.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Originally posted August 18, 2013 01: by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Applying Myres2011 Balareque2010 & Cruciani2010 to Bekada2013 re her Algerian M412 S116 U152
Myres gives coalescences for two - M412 __ 8870±1708 - S116 __ 8630±1529
and Cruciani for one - U152 __ 7.4k (95% CI 5.3k-10.2k).
These dates are all European and Neolithic. Balaresque goes into the u-sat diversities but is irrelevant for ascertaining Algeria vs SW Europe relative age estimate.
From what's available to me the three came into Algeria sometime after or near the end of the Neolithic on up to colonial/modern eras. Which is pretty much what Troll Patrol says. Nothing indicates no earlier than colonial/modern as per Xyyman.
. Working with we got the chalcolithic is the upper limit
code:
sorry, chart won't xfer, will bump old thread
|
the CIs for M412 and S116 seem close for UEPs separated by two steps, i.e., grandparent to grandchild relation. But, as well known, nrY TMRCAs aren't precisely accurate and at best allow for coalescences in a general epoch. STR microsatelite diversity reveals relative order of first appearance.
What say archaeology and cultural anthropology about relations between Algeria and SW Europe including its associated isles during the chalcolithic (4500-3500)?
I have nothing from the chalcolithic. Not until the bronze age do I see contact evidenced by trade
* 2000 BCE - NAs export ivory and ostrich eggs, destination Iberia - NAs import bell shaped vessels at Cueta and Tetuan, source Iberia
* 1500 BCE - NAs import copper/bronze arrowheads to no further west than Algiers, source Iberia - NAs import Sicilian and Pantellaria worked obsidian at locations spanning Korba to _ Bizerta, source Lipari islands across the Messina Straits
So here is an opportunity for initial entry of R-M412 R-S116 R-U152 into the NA coastal Tell populations no earlier than 4000 years ago pending further archaeology fieldwork.
is specious in that 1 - R-M529 per her own supplemental data has no Maghreb presence 2 - R-M412 R-S116 R-U152 does not date back to African H1 etc.
Bekada's R-U152 freqs in Iberian Peninsula (2.94) and Balkans (2.63) is hardly different than Morocco (2.63) and Algeria (2.56). Since this is current data it may indicate colonial/modern geneflow.
Without diversity data from the Tell, differentiation between local origin from earlier times or incursion from over the last few hundred years is impossible.
Anyway keep in mind freqs < 5% are not very significant. also that frequency by itself can't indicate origin or direction of geneflow.
[...]
Nothing blows away the archaeology fact of contact between the Tell and SW Europe no later than 4000 years ago. This is the first opportunity for M412 S116 U152 geneflow to the Tell supported by non- genetic disciplines.
This initial chalcolithic/bronze age geneflow then could continue on through "Sea Peoples," imperial Rome, Islamic slavery, and colonial/modern eras. Currently, due to lack of know μ-sat diversity of the African M412 S116 U152, we have no genetic way to verify which ages.
... Myres2010 has no African diversity measures. Her European diversities are what establish no later than Neolithic coalescence for the clades under my examination i.e., M412 S116 U152.
[...]
2000 BCE ~= 1at documentable AW Euro male infusion.
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Tukuler
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posted
Concluded
My focus was on 3 particular polymorphisms far downstream from R1b as NA Euro male signatures. If we knew their microsatellite diversity in NA we could definitely state the era(s) R-M412 R-S116 R-U152 entered the coastal Tell of North Africa.
From their derivation ages, current distribution in the Tell, and by archaeology, their earliest possible introduction is the chalcolithic/bronze era.
There is absolutely nothing available to confirm SW Euro males weren't in the Tell until and after Islamic slavery days, which seems an ideological driven opinion hell bent on ignoring profuse plain evidence of Euro derived architecture and items of bi-directional trade from at least 2000 BCE.
Think, the Romans conquered the Maghreb even but never established a Saharan presence. Pre-historic SW Euros trading with in the Tell would have no reason to travel over the Atlas and into the Sahara and would leave but sparse genetic traces of their contact (the occasional baby born to a local female due to "hospitality." Think of the women you've met on roadtrips. How many of them bore a child from you w/o you knowing anything about it at all?).
BTW there's no way for HGs to spread other than by demic diffusion. It's technology and cultures which can spread by borrowing w/o demic diffusion.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Originally posted January 22, 2014 02 by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage. I am shooting the breeze while you post that new data on Berbers.
Shoot on brother.
Meanwhile a little Maurusian geography and climate so we can place Maurusia in context. Note that the Maurusian is limited to a strip of land between the Atlas and the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
20k 14C years ago Africans of littoral Maghreb became shielded from the west, central, and southern Africans by the Last Glacial Arid Maximum climate. Note that the tiny watermelon colored strip labeled Mediterranean scrub at the very tippy top on this map is the Maurusian industry's precise location.
This and following climate and geography maps show when and where spread and migration was facile or restrictive for gene flow in a respective era of time.
1000 miles of desert buffered the Maghreb proper from all the rest of Africa in the Last Glacial Arid Maximum.
Some scholars posit Libya and Egypt had cultural industries similar in aspect to the Maurusian, iirc.
Communication to or from Libya and Egypt via the Mediterranean coast wasn't easy. Likewise for the Atlantic coast south all the way to Guinea. The Maghreb had a tiny strip of scrubland at the very north with semi-desert conditions from there to the Atlas having extreme desert at its southern foot.
Ocean heights were lower in the LGAM so Iberia was very easy to get to (maybe Pantelleria on to Sicily too) when compared to south or eastward flow. No one had to wait for glaciers to melt to go back and forth across the straits of Gibraltar thus no end of LGM refugium exit to the Maghreb which was readily accessible throughout the entire LGM.
Any African phenotypes, cultures, and genes in LGAM Maghreb were there since before 20k including Kefi's overlooked L mtDNA clades.
A caveat on Kefi is that the remains she assessed were from nearer the end of the Maurusian, circa 11-12k.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Something interesting in Ennafaa 2009 points to a possibility of indigenous H subclades [QUOTE] ... a high female permeability has been deduced from several mitochondrial studies that pointed to the existence of an important maternal Iberian input on North Africa [15,19]. Although there is no archaeological evidence to justify such a demic flow from Iberia to North Africa, based on the phylogeographic range, comparative gene diversity and ages of several mitochondrial haplogroups such as V, H1, H3, and U5b1b [25,37,26], the presence of these haplogroups in North Africa is thought to be the result of a southward expansion of Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum. In fact, coalescence ages for H1 and H3 subclades estimated in this study are in good agreement with those previously published and are congruent with these expansions.
Archaeology is against cultural and demic Iberian input at and following the coalescence time of H1,3 in WNW Africa. To me this means already in a few thousand years WNW African bearers of H1,3 etc., didn't act or too much look like their Iberian co-H1,3 bearers.
quote: Coalescence ages for H1 (11 ± 2 ky) and H3 (11 ± 4 ky) in North Africa point to the possibility of a late Palaeolithic settlement for these lineages similar to those found for other mtDNA haplogroups. . . . Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled additional mtDNA differences between North African and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously thought.
Sensible, especially considering during the LGM there was no ice blocking the way to the Maghreb and the strait was narrower than now. There was no need to wait for post-LGM climate induced expansion to move immediately southward though Last Glacial Arid Maximum conditions limited expansion much beyond the Maghreb.
Though culturally and somewhat phenotypically distinct Pre-Holocene NNW Africa and part of Iberia were geographically and climatically one region.
Keita's and Frigi's ideas on indigenous clades and/or sub-clades of some "EurAsian" haplogroups is supported by the above. It's not unreasonable to question African or Eurasian origins when examining co-existing pre-neolithic mtDNA hgs
Frequency, coalescence, and especially diversity values determine nrY and mtDNA haplogroup origins. Ennafaa notes no statistcal difference in the below.
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Troll Patrol,
These people were still Black, still Negros like you,still of your race. Therefore ohh White people hating invader you are every bit as responsible. You like holding all Whites responsible for atrocities committed by some Whites in the past well two can play that game hehehehe.
Ok, so you are now responsible for every hideous crime and atrocities "a white" has committed.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.
The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.
The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader
You are entertaining questions in the absence of evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that any black North African population engaged in the enslavement of Europeans or anybody else on the offensive in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise. Like I said earlier, the ancient Egyptians are the only black people that enslaved non-Africans (war captives) -- prisoners of war that continuously subjected Egypt to attacks and attempts at infiltration.
Contrary to common belief, Egypt was not a society that depended heavily on slavery and slaves were treated incomparably better than in any other major contemporary civilization. The Greeks and Romans were infinitely more dependent on slave labour and treated them rather harshly.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: [qb] Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.
The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader
You are entertaining questions in the absence of evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that any black North African population engaged in the enslavement of Europeans or anybody else on the offensive in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise.
Again the question is broader and you have added a new caveats: " on the offensive"" in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise. "
I didn't ask about "on the offensive" or " state sanctioned" or "commercial enterprise" and not limited to Egypt.
Excluding Egypt did blacks in the rest of North Africa have European slaves at any point on time?
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: [qb] Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.
The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader
You are entertaining questions in the absence of evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that any black North African population engaged in the enslavement of Europeans or anybody else on the offensive in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise.
Again the question is broader and you have added a new caveats: " on the offensive"" in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise. "
I didn't ask about "on the offensive" or " state sanctioned" or "commercial enterprise" and not limited to Egypt.
Excluding Egypt did blacks in the rest of North Africa have European slaves at any point on time?
Those caveats are essential because they provide context. Ancient Egypt acquired the vast majority of its slave from West Asian war captives and did not raid for slaves from civilian populaces. There is no evidence that any black North African groups enslaved anyone outside the continent, so our hands are clean. Unlike the Europeans, we are not responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people from the four corners of the earth.
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Those caveats are essential because they provide context. Ancient Egypt acquired the vast majority of its slave from West Asian war captives and did not raid for slaves from civilian populaces. There is no evidence that any black North African groups enslaved anyone outside the continent, so our hands are clean. Unlike the Europeans, we are not responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people from the four corners of the earth. [/QB]
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each: "Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
How many slaves an individual could own varied considerably. One official of the 13th Dynasty recorded well over forty Near Eastern slaves in his personal possession. On one stela, its owner reports, "I have acquired three male slaves and seven females in addition to what my father granted me. An 11th Dynasty stela also records its owners boastful comments that, "[Whereas] my father's people were house-born as property of his father and his mother, my people are likewise [from] the property of my father and my mother [but also from] my own property, which I have acquired through my activities".
The master might employ a slave in many different manners, such as in domestic service as the guardian of children, cooks, brewers or maids. They might be used as gardeners or field hands or in the stable. The master might also require the slave to learn a trade to improve his property (the slave). They could become craftsman, or attain a higher status. One of the items in an inheritance consisted of some trade agents who were presumably trained slaves. Slaves who were taught to write could rise as high as a manager of the master's estate. In one case, a freeman was recorded in the Leopold Papyrus as working under the supervision of a Nubian slave who belonged to the high priest of Amun. However, captive slaves were mostly assigned to the king and the temples, and their status entailed manual labor. Perhaps the worst treatment that a slave could be assigned was to work the quarries and mines.
Slaves, of course, were frequently not happy being slaves. In ancient Egypt, there has so far never been any evidence to show that a slave ever purchased his freedom. When a slave escaped, the master could pursue the fugitive and ask the authorities for assistance in the recapture of the runaway. While the fugitive's best chance of escape was to leave Egypt altogether, this was not always as successful as it might at first seem. For example, in the famous treaty between Ramesses II and the Hittites after the Battle of Kadesh, fugitives, even of humble birth, were bound to be restored to their native land. The treaty reads in part: "If a man or two men who are unknown flee, and if they escape from the country of Egypt and if they don't want to serve him, then Hattusili, the great king, the king of the country of Hatti, has to deliver them into his brother's hands and he shall not allow them to inhabit the country of Hatti."
posted
I didn't see your response until now, and once again you've missed the point. Ancient Egypt's Asiatic neighbours in the Levant consistently subjected Egypt to aggression and attempts at infiltration and so Egypt had to use force to subjugate these States, which naturally resulted in tribute.
It seems that ancient Egypt did not commission raids for the sole and express purposes of acquiring slaves. Slave merchants were Asiatic themselves and "There appears to have been no public market for slaves." The scale of the slave industry in Egypt seems to have been small. Also, the AE did not racialize slavery, unlike Europeans.
Per your own source, slaves were treated extraordinarily well in ancient Egypt and so you cannot compare this with the absolutely dehumanizing manner in which millions of blacks were treated by Europeans.
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.
Few Examples : - Soliman Raïs (De Veeboer) was of Flemish Origin - Morat Raïs (Jan Janszoon van Haerlem) was also of Dutch, Flemish - Barbarossa brothers who were also (partly or totally)of European Descent
Most of the Barbary Pirates were former European slaves kidnapped in Europe or Christians renegates who adopted islam. Turks, Janissaries and their new renegates allies dominated the local population (Berbers who think that they are/were Arabs).
A French citizen of the 17th century (Thévenot) advised people traveling to Algiers, to not speak in Italian if they wanted some privacy in their discussion.
I agree when you said that white people were already in North Africa during antiquity, as acknowledged by scholars like Cheikh Anta Diop, or Stéphane Gsell...In Carthage they was many slaves taken in Sicily or Spain ( Gilbert and Colette Charles - Picard).
North Africa was also a source of slaves for Romans ( like Terrence Afer) and most certainly for Arabs, who deported millions of Berbers (from 7th to 10th century) when they conquered North Africa. Specially women concubines (jawaris) and children sold in Iraq, Arabia, Damas or Egypt...When Berbers became more and more muslims, Muslim slave traders (Kharijites Ibadites Berbers, who were former slaves of the Arabs) look after new sources of slaves and turned towards Subsahara Africa for new supplies...Scholars like Ibn Khaldoun or more recently Mohamed Talbi or Hisham Djaït (both from Tunisia) have described this Muslim slave trade in North Africans Berbers.
North Africa received hundred thousands of Moriscos because of Spanish Inquisition, millions of white slaves ( Robert Davis, Gillian Weiss etc), hundred thousands of christian renegates, and some free whites (like the Portuguese who took refuge in Morocco).
The big supply of white slaves started with the muslim conquest of Spain in the 7th century. Then Mulisms used (mostly) West African gold (Bilad Al Tibr or Land of Gold)to buy white slaves and eunuchs (saqalibas) all over Europe ( England, France, Slavic countries). Spain was the slave clearing house for the Maghreb and all the Muslim world. Radhanite merchants were the sellers...
Ibn Khurradadhbih (Kitab Al Masalik wal Mamalik) describe those white slaves in North Africa who were very present in the Aghlabid State of North Africa.
Two interesting recent books have been written about those Barbary pirates, they are in French (may translated in English) :
- "Les Chrétiens d'Allah" by Bartolomé (and Lucile) Bennassar
- "Les Barbaresques" by Jacques Heers
Murad Bey of Tunisia and Jawhar Al Saqili (who founded Al Azhar) were both former European slaves respectively from Corsica and Sicily.
Posts: 70 | From: Paris / France | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.
How dare you bring "YOUR OPINION" here without artifactual or textual proof?
Are you supposed to be somebody with special knowledge or something that trumps the proofs provided above?
Lucky for you, I'm in a better mood than usual.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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How about reading the books, "They Were White & They Were Slaves", "White Gold", "White Cargo", "White Slaves African Masters". Some of those books are about Whites enslaving Whites & others enslaving us as well. Sorry but Blacks were not innocent little angels who never bothered anyone.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: [qb] Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.
what about the Moroccans such as Moulay Ismaïl and all his slaves Were these Moroccan slave owners black? They are not Ottoamns
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
@Nehesy, this is new to me. I've heard of this before.
"Most of the Barbary Pirates were former European slaves kidnapped in Europe or Christians renegates who adopted islam. Turks, Janissaries and their new renegates allies dominated the local population (Berbers who think that they are/were Arabs)."
Gerrit Metzon - Changing power relations between Europe and Algiers
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Sudaniya,
How about reading the books, "They Were White & They Were Slaves", "White Gold", "White Cargo", "White Slaves African Masters". Some of those books are about Whites enslaving Whites & others enslaving us as well. Sorry but Blacks were not innocent little angels who never bothered anyone.
Which books are you suggesting, bedsides those mentioned.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Sudaniya,
How about reading the books, "They Were White & They Were Slaves", "White Gold", "White Cargo", "White Slaves African Masters". Some of those books are about Whites enslaving Whites & others enslaving us as well. Sorry but Blacks were not innocent little angels who never bothered anyone.
None of those books contend that the Barbary pirates were black. Disagree? Cite just one sentence from any of those books asserting that the North African Arabs and Mediterranean appearing coastal Berbers were black. I dare you. I double dare you.
Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.
Compared to white people, Africans have been angels in relation to non-Africans.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.
How dare you bring "YOUR OPINION" here without artifactual or textual proof?
Are you supposed to be somebody with special knowledge or something that trumps the proofs provided above?
Lucky for you, I'm in a better mood than usual.
It's not "my opinion" , it is facts...Plus I really don't care about your mood... :The Barbary Pirates of Algiers , Libya orTunisia were mostly of Turk and European descent. In Morocco the rulers were mostly berbers or native Africans.
- "Les Chrétiens d'Allah" by Bartolomé (and Lucile) Bennassar ==> Best study about their origins
- "Les Barbaresques" by Jacques Heers
- "Captives and Corsairs -France and Slavery in the Early Modern Mediterranean" by Gillian Weiss
Posts: 70 | From: Paris / France | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.
As with lamin, after a time of listening to nonsense drivel from a "Self" so-call African, one has to wonder if this African is really an African at all.
Note that this fool has just said that Arabs were/are NOT BLACK!
Would an African really say that?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.
How dare you bring "YOUR OPINION" here without artifactual or textual proof?
Are you supposed to be somebody with special knowledge or something that trumps the proofs provided above?
Lucky for you, I'm in a better mood than usual.
It's not "my opinion" , it is facts...Plus I really don't care about your mood... :The Barbary Pirates of Algiers , Libya orTunisia were mostly of Turk and European descent. In Morocco the rulers were mostly berbers or native Africans.
- "Les Chrétiens d'Allah" by Bartolomé (and Lucile) Bennassar ==> Best study about their origins
- "Les Barbaresques" by Jacques Heers
- "Captives and Corsairs -France and Slavery in the Early Modern Mediterranean" by Gillian Weiss
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
^ MAURITANIE - Un Grand Chef Maure et sa suite (Soudan) - très bon état
MAURITANIA - A Grand Chef Moor and his retinue (Sudan) - very good condition
Sudan 1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, literally "country of the blacks" (originally the stretch of Africa between the Sahara and the equator), from sud, plural of aswad (fem. sauda) "black." In early use also Soudan, from French. Related: Sudanese.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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In Morocco the rulers were mostly berbers or native Africans.
Therefore these pictures are legit
quote:Originally posted by Nehesy:
:The Barbary Pirates of Algiers , Libya orTunisia were mostly of Turk
- "Les Chrétiens d'Allah" by Bartolomé (and Lucile) Bennassar ==> Best study about their origins
- "Les Barbaresques" by Jacques Heers
- "Captives and Corsairs -France and Slavery in the Early Modern Mediterranean" by Gillian Weiss [/QB]
The Ottomans ruled these regions. However they did not replace the populations there. The populations there were primarily berber with some Arabs. Included in berber and Arab are people that range from light skinned, tawny and also many dark skinned African look types as well as dark skinned Arabs We can look at these regions today and genetically the people are around half African give or take with Haplogroup E-M81 being the predominant male line.
quote:Originally posted by Nehesy: Most of the Barbary Pirates were former European slaves kidnapped in Europe or Christians '
That is not true. You can point to some captains who were European outcasts but that is not "most of"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ MAURITANIE - Un Grand Chef Maure et sa suite (Soudan) - très bon état
MAURITANIA - A Grand Chef Moor and his retinue (Sudan) - very good condition
Sudan 1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, literally "country of the blacks" (originally the stretch of Africa between the Sahara and the equator), from sud, plural of aswad (fem. sauda) "black." In early use also Soudan, from French. Related: Sudanese.
Mauritania means "country of the blacks".
Dunce, you get the flow...?
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.
As with lamin, after a time of listening to nonsense drivel from a "Self" so-call African, one has to wonder if this African is really an African at all.
Note that this fool has just said that Arabs were/are NOT BLACK!
Would an African really say that?
I'm more African than you'll ever be... but then again, you absurdly claim that you're also partly black European. LOL! The Arabs [before the time of the prophet] were not black. There are black Arabs -- but these are Arabized people, the same way that the Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqis have been Arabized.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".
I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!
Stupid Bitch get lost.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".
I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!
Stupid Bitch get lost.
Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
For those who know how to interpret it, here is some food for thought.. that can be used to investigate the origin of at least some Moors, namely, the ones that were settled in important (albeit mixed) Moor strongholds in Europe.
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