quote:Originally posted by lamin: Neth-Athena wrote:
quote:...the history of migrations and colonization that brought Eurasians from the Neolithic to the present time into North Africa
Could you possibly elaborate on this--bearing in mind the specific meaning of the term "Eurasian"? Maybe we can also learn--in terms of numbers--the significance of such migrations.
Re What to call the people of Africa
Why not be economical and consistent in the whole matter. For example, South Asians and East Asians differ significantly in terms of phenotype yet when described colour terms and eye shape terms are never brought up. Why not just speak in terms of regions--when it comes to Africa--West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa and North Africa. Talk of "sub-Saharan" Africa is sheer racism--because as you wrote it is just euphemistic racist code for all the world's ills--maximally exaggerated for racist effect.
But to be more accurate one can use the same techniques as animal and plan biologists: an African would simply be a member of the human species whose phenotype offers evidence of being shaped by the environments of Africa. A significant phenotypical marker of such would be "hair form"--of which the African variety seems unique to Africa--coupled with a pigmentation range from very dark(Sudan) to yellow(some of the populations of North and Southern Africa).
I am no expert but from what I have understood by browsing through this forum during the Neolithic Sea Peoples went to the African coast and mixed with the local (Black - should go sans saying) population. Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
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The movement of peoples throughout the world within the time periods that it takes for new genomic muatations to arise has been traced by the signatures left by haplotypes. In the case there is little evidence that Eurasian or West Asian haplotypes entered North Africa in any significant way before 1000 BC. After 1,000 BC Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks then assorted Europeans entered North Africa which did transform the genomic profile of that period. but nothing as far back as the Neolithic as you claim.
Check out the movements of R, I, J, and E3 hapotypes plus the Ls and U6 into North Africa over time to confirm or disconfirm my point.
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Creamy colored "Libyans" appear before 1000 BCE in 18th Dynasty tomb paintings. These paintings are roughly contemporaneous to Sea Peoples migrations thus whatever lightened this particular sub-population of ancient "Libyans" seemingly happened before the Sea Peoples advent.
Minoan art leads me to presuppose regular back and forth contact between Libya and the Aegean. But it was further west where the ancient "Libyan" Meshwesh (whose ethnonym ends in "esh" as did the ethnonyms of select Sea Peoples) lived.
Archaeology of Tunis yields evidence of trade with Tyrrhenian populations. Were women one of the items? Then there's this so-called "Beaker" culture/tradition that was supposedly south European to start with. Iirc, with the Beaker industry a more selfish and militant outlook presents itself in coastal North Africa. Maybe some lightening came onboard with the Beakers?
Population geneticist's reports oalone would have one conclude the lightening is a result of demic movements in wake of Islam. If the slave trade is what lightened coastal North Africa, that leaves us to surmise some genetic mutation as responsible for dynastic Egypt era "whites" in North Africa.
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And add to that the fact that the earliest "Libyans" were often depicted in similar shades as the Egyptians. So between the Old kingdom and 18th dynasty arose a population called "Meshwesh".
One point to keep in mind though. Whenever some people discuss the ancient Libyans and Meshwesh, they often like to call them Berbers. This almost implies or suggests that Berbers originated with the arrival of lighter skinned populations in Northern Africa. Berber is a language that originated in East Africa to the South and West of Egypt. The meshwesh and other Northern coastal populations are people derived from various groups who arrived in Northern Africa in the distant past. They did not BRING the Berber language to Africa and therefore they were NOT the first Berbers. These populations often assimilated existing African traditions and languages, hence they did adopt the Berber language from populations already there and speaking the tongue. Therefore, the lighter skinned population is just one of the groups that have impacted the phenotype of Northern Africa, but they can not be claimed to be synonymous with the origin and development of Berber people, because the Berber language because the Berber language and North African culture in general predates these migrations.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... between the Old kingdom and 18th dynasty arose a population called "Meshwesh".
Don't know about arose more likely AE's became aware.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... the lighter skinned population is just one of the groups that have impacted the phenotype of Northern Africa, but they can not be claimed to be synonymous with the origin and development of Berber people, because the Berber language and North African culture in general predates these migrations.
Certainly not synonymous with the origin but most definitely a vital part of the development of aMazigh culture if Meshwesh is the first appearance of the radical 'm' - 'z/c' - 'gh/r'.
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I would say arose as the Egyptians were aware of "Libyans" prior to the Meswhesh, whence they were termed Tehenu or Temehu. The first Libyans found depicted in Egypt and identified as such did not look much different than the Egyptians. Therefore, the AE were aware of the people to the West long before the Meshwesh arrived.
As for the term 'm'-'z/c'-'gh/r', again, seeing as the people who originally spoke Berber originated to the South and migrated to the West of Egypt, there must have been a word that they used to identify themselves as well as distinguish themselves from others long before the appearance of a "Meshwesh" or any other coastal population who adopted the Berber language. I understand it is evidence of the derivation of the modern term, however, since most of our written records from this period were done by NON Berbers, ie Egyptians, then you can't necessarily link the two terms as implying a Berber identity when you do not know how those Berbers who were outside the realm of Egypt's closest neighbors identified themselves. Case in point, what did the Libyans of the 23rd dynasty refer to themselves as and were they related to the Berber speakers of the time? What about the inscriptions from the Oases of Egypt, do they provide evidence of the origin of the term "amazigh"? I understand your point, but I don't agree that the ethnic identity for Berber speaking populations centered around coastal populations, at least not 4000 years ago. Modern "Berber" identity is more a result of the history within the last 3000 years and is centered around the interaction between Berber speaking populations in the coastal areas with non Africans, including the introduction of the written language from Phoenicians. This and does not necessarily match how Berber speaking groups identified themselves 4000 years ago across the vast sweep of the Sahara into coastal North Africa.
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I say aware because the AEs seem to be oblivious to "Libya' any further west than the nearest oases. For instance Carthage is late New Kingdom times yet where in AE records do we find Carthage mentioned in any kind of contact.
We don't know for sure how far westward of Cyrenaica was the Meshwesh homelands. They could've been as far away as Algeria.
But anyway the AE's seem pretty clueless about who inhabited what to them was Amenti.x3st "GhostLand" until folk from there quite violently burst in upon them.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I would say arose as the Egyptians were aware of "Libyans" prior to the Meswhesh, whence they were termed Tehenu or Temehu. The first Libyans found depicted in Egypt and identified as such did not look much different than the Egyptians. Therefore, the AE were aware of the people to the West long before the Meshwesh arrived.
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^ But all in all, it goes without saying and is a basic fact (common sense) that these white populations were not indigenous to the African continent but entered it from the outside, and that all of this had no bearing to the development of Egyptian civilization despite what some (including one individual on this board) thinks!
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I don't know which white populations you're refering to. If you mean the ones from the northern shores of the Mediterranean its redundant to re-emphasize their whiteness as that's the gist of what I've proposed (that such folk were the cream in the coffee).
They're the non-indigenous component in the production of the "white" Africans. You aren't arguing that African chromosomes don't predominate in "white" North Africa, are you?
Ah, but they do. They comprise nearly three quarters, hence the "white" Africans are indeed indigenous.
Don't drag Egyptian civilization into this. Stay focused. The object under examination are those of the ancient "Libyans," and their descendents, who had, and have, extremely light complexions comparable to Europeans.
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Could it not be possible that these lighter Africans originated from an evolution of darker Africans? The same happened to lighter Eurasians in essence.
Looking at this map, one can see that the radiation in coastal north-west africa is basically the same as most of Iberia, Anatolia, and Southern parts of Italy and Greece, and China/Southern Korea/Southern Japan, so one could expect a similar level of pigmentation, at least to what's known as "olive skin".
There was mixing too of course, as the genes atest, but perhaps a combination of the two factors? Or the mixing increasing the lightness of the skin?
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I say aware because the AEs seem to be oblivious to "Libya' any further west than the nearest oases. For instance Carthage is late New Kingdom times yet where in AE records do we find Carthage mentioned in any kind of contact.
We don't know for sure how far westward of Cyrenaica was the Meshwesh homelands. They could've been as far away as Algeria.
But anyway the AE's seem pretty clueless about who inhabited what to them was Amenti.x3st "GhostLand" until folk from there quite violently burst in upon them.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I would say arose as the Egyptians were aware of "Libyans" prior to the Meswhesh, whence they were termed Tehenu or Temehu. The first Libyans found depicted in Egypt and identified as such did not look much different than the Egyptians. Therefore, the AE were aware of the people to the West long before the Meshwesh arrived.
What I am saying is that the Meshwesh were not and are not the original Libyans or the first Westerners identified by the Egyptians. Therefore, when talking about the populations along the coasts of Northern Africa at the earliest periods of Egyptian history and earlier, you cannot assume that they were like the "meshwesh". North African and "Libyan" history did not start with the "meshwesh" and certainly not with light skinned migrants northern Africa. That is unless the original black populations of Northern Africa don't count.....
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Could it not be possible that these lighter Africans originated from an evolution of darker Africans? The same happened to lighter Eurasians in essence.
Looking at this map, one can see that the radiation in coastal north-west africa is basically the same as most of Iberia, Anatolia, and Southern parts of Italy and Greece, and China/Southern Korea/Southern Japan, so one could expect a similar level of pigmentation, at least to what's known as "olive skin".
There was mixing too of course, as the genes atest, but perhaps a combination of the two factors? Or the mixing increasing the lightness of the skin?
I understand your point, however, look at where those color bands lie at in Africa. Most of the population of Africa was outside of those bands through most of Africa's history. Therefore, the populations who DID reach these areas would have had a predominant complexion based on where they originated. If they originated in the Sahara to the south they would have been dark. If they originated across the ocean they would have been light. We all agree that there has been mixing, but the issue here is WHEN the mixing in North Africa started to produce a MAJORITY of the population there with a lighter complexion. I and many others would argue that such a change did not occur until within the last 3,000 years, which is a very small amount of time compared to the 80,000 years of human presence in Africa.
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Well Doug, when the first Humans entered Europe they were dark too, and latter lighter skin was selected, the same with other Eurasian populations. So I don't argue that when they reached those areas they were dark, only that they could not have evolved lighter skin. But it's only a proposition.
Those fair Lybians AE depicted are the first drawings of fair North Africans, right? Though I doubt AE knew much about the area. There's the Mauri issue though, which implies that at least in those times some were still dark. Do the Romans/Phoenicians/Greeks etc mention any light people in Northern Africa?
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The first people beyond an easy chariot ride into the desert were the Libu and the Meshwesh were further west and existed well before the Egyptians knew anything about them.
And again, if Meshwesh was Egyptic's best attempt at transcribing and sounding the name these people had for themselves then in all likelihood they were taMazight speakers.
In a map accompanying his article Western African Languages in Historical Perspective (seen below), Kay Williamson sees proto-Tamazight (the first "Berber" language)
1. originating in the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan 8kya 2. spreading from there to ___a. the Dongola Reach/3rd cataract Tmhhw and to ___b. the Air-Hoggar region 3. before proto-North Tamazight developed 4. and went to ___a. the Maghreb and then eastward to ____* Rebu/Libou and 5. proto-Zenaga left Air/Adrar des Ifores for ___a. the Tagant (southern Mauritania).
Here are some other mappings of the language ================================ SIDEBAR NOTE:in comparison to the above map Taureg corresponds to Air-Hoggar Air/Adrar regions, Atlas/Zenati/Nefusi corresponds to the Maghreb, Siwi roughly corresponds to Rebu/Libou, and Zenaga corresponds to the Tagant.
=================================
I think you're taking the colour issue too defensively. To quote an earlier post on this issue:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Nothing mysterious about "light skin" coastal North Africans, or about their origins in the African continent. Usually advocates who make it mysterious, are those who refuse to see facts relayed time and again, on a single factor: bias against the said "light skin" Africans on the account of their "outlier", so to speak, skin hue as far as the ranges in the rest of the African continent goes, notwithstanding that sections of coastal north Africans have their own biases against more southerly non-Tamazight speaking African groups, as well as non-Tamazight speakers to their north outside of the continent.
I can do nothing less than assume dynastic west Syrtean populations were like the Meshwesh, east Syrtean/Cyrenaican populations were like the Libu/Rebu, and "Alexandrian"/west delta/north oasis populations were like the Tjehenu, and southern oasis populations were like the Tjemehhu. That is unless I want to fabricate otherwise from my imagination instead of relying on what little archaeology evidence we have.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: What I am saying is that the Meshwesh were not and are not the original Libyans or the first Westerners identified by the Egyptians. Therefore, when talking about the populations along the coasts of Northern Africa at the earliest periods of Egyptian history and earlier, you cannot assume that they were like the "meshwesh". North African and "Libyan" history did not start with the "meshwesh" and certainly not with light skinned migrants northern Africa. That is unless the original black populations of Northern Africa don't count.....
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Well Doug, when the first Humans entered Europe they were dark too, and latter lighter skin was selected, the same with other Eurasian populations. So I don't argue that when they reached those areas they were dark, only that they could not have evolved lighter skin. But it's only a proposition.
UV radiation levels on the African continent, as your Jablonksi-Chaplin map demonstrates, and as other UV radiation maps show, are generally higher than that of Europe. The coastal north light toned Tamazight groups who are "outliers", in terms of skin shade gradients seen in the rest of the continent, have this feature, more likely because of historic gene flow from "Southwest Asia" and across the Mediterranean sea. If these "outlier" [in terms of skin shade] coastal North Africans underwent an "independent" parallel light skin pigmentation evolution with that of Europeans, then would studies on skin pigmentation genes not reveal this, just as it has done in the case of East Asians and Europeans?
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Mystery Solver is correct. In fact that issue was discussed several times, including here.
Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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OK now this is where Ishould've posted the below instead of in the rock art tomb painting Fulani thread:
There may be a better place to post this but, since I've included Saharan rock art depicting Africa's native whites in this thread, I'll put an opinion of Keita on Amazight speakers' colour here.
Indigenous whites is something I never took too seriously even when posed by Sergi seeing Bates' countering of that position. I've supposed creamy coloured Libyans to be primarily the result of communications with the north shore and island Mediterraneans due initially to neolithic trade (which I surmise included females as trade items) and lastly the Trojan War refugees (whole families).
posted
It does catch you off guard when you meet an African who is classified as white in the Western World.
It really puts the race game into perspective.
I probably met like a couple of albinos in my lifetime and they are the west African types, so they have stereotypical "sub saharan" African features that makes it easy to identify them as Black.
Most Black/African people will *never* be able to distinguish Europeans from some Africans... (and I'm speaking purely in terms of genetic-ancestry here).
The problem to be solved on a large scale is Education and we are way behind, waay waay behind. The liars are educating our kids as we speak, at school and in their own homes. The situation is bleak.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Man go somewhere and shut up. You're too dumb to talk.
You sound like jeeves.
Matter of fact I bet your dumb sounding ass is jeeves.
Look man quit trying to mingle with the guest in an attempt to prove your intellect and just serve the horderves.
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^ I liked the one better where bogles announced my posts read like Focault on speed. I laughed pretty good after looking him up.
Your loosing your edge, Pirate.
Btw, of course that's not me, i'm still Wb without any other accounts, plus i rarely ever even talk about "albinos" unless i'm talking about the full on complete lack of melanin medical condition .. though it's all relative i suppose.
And Bro D -- even that Egyptian guy who sued the U.S. government for a right to be called the opposite was one such "white" African.
I just think of some of them like the situation in South America, Mexico, the Mid East or where ever.
Africa and Europe are geographic regions - and demographic exchanges have flowed both ways - so for the (especially coastal) populations to look alike is nothing unexpected:
In precolonial times black Africans like Saint Maurice (Maur meaning black, it wasn't his real Egyptian name) went as far as England and Germany and the Keme-nu army in legend went as far North as Russia (and ausar showed us pictures of modern descendants). The Arab, Moorish (particulary BlackaMoor or "black at moorish complection"), and Roman political and executive influence was just as far spread in Europe as Maruice's travels and conversely, Asia's muslims have gone as far as NorthWest, Central and SouthEastern Africa and European slaves which were popular in North African Islamic polygamy went at least as far as Mali, West Africa. Not to mention the ancient Greeks and others in North Africa.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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^ All good, but never taught in the schools available to most.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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What the **** do these last four posts have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times?
Please take this sociological chit-chat somewhere off my thread and in to the many many many threads of late already wasting time with that bullshit.
posted
Al takruri, As already said , the mutation which caused white skin is not present in africa, this paticular mutation is associated with ice european environment and therefore DNA.
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quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
How so in situ?
quote: ... restricted early Holocene populations from the northern Sahara who represented a skewed non- representative and non-random sample of the Saharan peoples who were evolving there after recolonisation with the decrease in aridity in the late Pleistocene; ...
Indigenous African whites/near whites have peaches and cream complexions not the roses and milk of pallour of European whites.
Heretofore I proposed the cream in the coffee or caramel of the black supra-Saharan Africans came from Aegean females (in the case of Libou) and Tyrhennian females (for Meshwesh). I based this on Sea Peoples/Trojan War refugees for the former and neolithic - chalcolithic trans-Mediterranean trade for the latter.
This still left me unanswered questions in regards to creamy Tjemehu/Tamehu/TMHHW already in early 19th dynasty times and whites in Saharan rock art that appear seemingly prior to beaker and obsidian relics of circa 1500 BCE.
Can you address these specifics?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Today and yesterday, there was no white African.
The last white African was a Serbian!
Lion!
I have heard of various claims of "indigenous white Africans" based on rock paintings in the Sahara. The presence of these "long headed peoples" it is alleged, signifies Cakazoid expansion in the Berber area. But according to the 1997 book "The Berbers", by Michael Brett, Elizabeth Fentress - History - 1997 the reputed "whites" bear more resemblance to Upper Egyptians based on skeletal studies.
quote: "the original Saharans were 'negroid' and left behind their distinctive art and iconography in rock carvings and art."
""elongated white men with characteristic long hair and pointed beards. Some confirmation of this racial shift comes from physical anthropology, although the skeletons seem to show closer resemblance to groups from the upper Nile Valley than to contemporary material from the Maghreb."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Again this is not a matter of Europeans or so-called Caucasians being indigenous Africans. Reread the essence of what Keita proposes, a "a skewed non- representative and non-random sample of the Saharan peoples who were evolving"
Brett and Fentris write about Mechta-Afalou being Neanderthal derived so I wouldn't take them too seriously when it comes to archaeo-anthropology.
For color examples of whites in the Saharan rock art I recommend Hacid though with certain reservations expressed elsewhere.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
Evergreen Writes: This is conjecture on Keita's part. He has never conducted a peer-reviewed analysis on the origins of "light skin and eyes" in North Africa nor does he define what he means by the use of these terms.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Neith-Athena ------------
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Neth-Athena wrote:
quote:...the history of migrations and colonization that brought Eurasians from the Neolithic to the present time into North Africa
Could you possibly elaborate on this--bearing in mind the specific meaning of the term "Eurasian"? Maybe we can also learn--in terms of numbers--the significance of such migrations.
Re What to call the people of Africa
Why not be economical and consistent in the whole matter. For example, South Asians and East Asians differ significantly in terms of phenotype yet when described colour terms and eye shape terms are never brought up. Why not just speak in terms of regions--when it comes to Africa--West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa and North Africa. Talk of "sub-Saharan" Africa is sheer racism--because as you wrote it is just euphemistic racist code for all the world's ills--maximally exaggerated for racist effect.
But to be more accurate one can use the same techniques as animal and plan biologists: an African would simply be a member of the human species whose phenotype offers evidence of being shaped by the environments of Africa. A significant phenotypical marker of such would be "hair form"--of which the African variety seems unique to Africa--coupled with a pigmentation range from very dark(Sudan) to yellow(some of the populations of North and Southern Africa).
I am no expert but from what I have understood by browsing through this forum during the Neolithic Sea Peoples went to the African coast and mixed with the local (Black - should go sans saying) population. Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
This is the first time I'm hearing of neolithic "sea peoples". What is the evidence that? "Sea peoples" usually refer to a groups of people who arrived long after the Old Kingdom in North Africa.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The movement of peoples throughout the world within the time periods that it takes for new genomic muatations to arise has been traced by the signatures left by haplotypes. In the case there is little evidence that Eurasian or West Asian haplotypes entered North Africa in any significant way before 1000 BC. After 1,000 BC Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks then assorted Europeans entered North Africa which did transform the genomic profile of that period. but nothing as far back as the Neolithic as you claim.
Check out the movements of R, I, J, and E3 hapotypes plus the Ls and U6 into North Africa over time to confirm or disconfirm my point.
This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.
Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars).
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
Evergreen Writes: This is conjecture on Keita's part. He has never conducted a peer-reviewed analysis on the origins of "light skin and eyes" in North Africa nor does he define what he means by the use of these terms.
And, like many other scholars in the discipline of genetics and physical anthropology of Egypt, Keita appears not to have had a very good grasp of the documented history of immigration and colonization of Egypt and the rest of North Africa.
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According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004
Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae.
These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb.
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art
Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger).
The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
Evergreen Writes: This is conjecture on Keita's part. He has never conducted a peer-reviewed analysis on the origins of "light skin and eyes" in North Africa nor does he define what he means by the use of these terms.
And, like many other scholars in the discipline of genetics and physical anthropology of Egypt, Keita appears not to have had a very good grasp of the documented history of immigration and colonization of Egypt and the rest of North Africa.
Couple months back someone posted a lecture by Keita in England saying something similar about the 'white' Berbers.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham.
Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs.
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak).
These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih.
Ifuras Tuareg of Mali
The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha.
No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds".
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This is a post of Neith-Athena's from another thread that I transposed here to be the initial post for the subject header.
I don't want to speak for Neith but I imagine she means neolithic people from the same areas the much later 19th Dynasty "Sea People" came from. I didn't take her literally.
My contributions don't begin until the 3rd post of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Neith-Athena ------------
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Neth-Athena wrote:
quote:...the history of migrations and colonization that brought Eurasians from the Neolithic to the present time into North Africa
Could you possibly elaborate on this--bearing in mind the specific meaning of the term "Eurasian"? Maybe we can also learn--in terms of numbers--the significance of such migrations.
Re What to call the people of Africa
Why not be economical and consistent in the whole matter. For example, South Asians and East Asians differ significantly in terms of phenotype yet when described colour terms and eye shape terms are never brought up. Why not just speak in terms of regions--when it comes to Africa--West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa and North Africa. Talk of "sub-Saharan" Africa is sheer racism--because as you wrote it is just euphemistic racist code for all the world's ills--maximally exaggerated for racist effect.
But to be more accurate one can use the same techniques as animal and plan biologists: an African would simply be a member of the human species whose phenotype offers evidence of being shaped by the environments of Africa. A significant phenotypical marker of such would be "hair form"--of which the African variety seems unique to Africa--coupled with a pigmentation range from very dark(Sudan) to yellow(some of the populations of North and Southern Africa).
I am no expert but from what I have understood by browsing through this forum during the Neolithic Sea Peoples went to the African coast and mixed with the local (Black - should go sans saying) population. Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
This is the first time I'm hearing of neolithic "sea peoples". What is the evidence that? "Sea peoples" usually refer to a groups of people who arrived long after the Old Kingdom in North Africa.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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This was a post authored by Lamin. I put it and Neith's post here because when I started elaborating the topic I didn't want my comments lost in a thread whose subject header had no bearing on the "White" Africa phenonena.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: lamin -----
The movement of peoples throughout the world within the time periods that it takes for new genomic muatations to arise has been traced by the signatures left by haplotypes. In the case there is little evidence that Eurasian or West Asian haplotypes entered North Africa in any significant way before 1000 BC. After 1,000 BC Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks then assorted Europeans entered North Africa which did transform the genomic profile of that period. but nothing as far back as the Neolithic as you claim.
Check out the movements of R, I, J, and E3 hapotypes plus the Ls and U6 into North Africa over time to confirm or disconfirm my point.
This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.
Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I don't understand what this informs us about the lighter skinned populations of ancient littoral North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004
Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae.
These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb.
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art
Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger).
The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Again, this doesn't tell us anything about the lighter skinned people of the littoral. There are threads on Saharans in general and the Kel Tamasheq in particular that are more relevant to your post.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham.
Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs.
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak).
These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih.
Ifuras Tuareg of Mali
The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha.
No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds".
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Reminder: the posts here in this thread have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times.
posted
I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum.
Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans?
Posts: 140 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Reminder: the posts here in this thread have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times.
Evergreen Writes:
Well framed question. To further frame this discussion we should recognize the ecological landscape of the saharan and supra-saharan regions during the late pleistocene. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) human populations were restricted to the Nile and the coastal regions of North Africa. Carrying capacity would indicate limited population density in coastal regions and high population density in the Nile during this time frame. Genetic evidence indicates that few if any of the genetic lineages present on the coast during the LGM are present in modern African populations. This is consistent with low population density in coastal North Africa and a genetic takeover of coastal North Africa by Nilotic Africans during the early Holocene.
The y-chromosome marker E-M78 is the defining northern Nilotic marker and emerged in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan from the "sub-Saharan" marker E-M35 sometime just prior to the LGM. The y-chromosome marker E-M81 is the defining NW African and Berber marker. This lineage emerged from marker E-M35 sometime during the mid-to-late Holocene (possibly the Bronze Age). The emergence of E-M81 directly from ancestral E-M35 would imply that the "Berbers" descend from a group that migrated from deep inner Africa relatively recently. If the "super-tropical" Naqada Egyptians descend from an ancestral group that was present in north Africa prior to the LGM why wouldn't the more recently migrated original "Berbers" be tropically adapted?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum.
Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans?
Not only the Minoans but Mycenae, but the Aegean in general.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Reminder: the posts here in this thread have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times.
Evergreen Writes:
Well framed question. To further frame this discussion we should recognize the ecological landscape of the saharan and supra-saharan regions during the late pleistocene. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) human populations were restricted to the Nile and the coastal regions of North Africa. Carrying capacity would indicate limited population density in coastal regions and high population density in the Nile during this time frame. Genetic evidence indicates that few if any of the genetic lineages present on the coast during the LGM are present in modern African populations. This is consistent with low population density in coastal North Africa and a genetic takeover of coastal North Africa by Nilotic Africans during the early Holocene.
The y-chromosome marker E-M78 is the defining northern Nilotic marker and emerged in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan from the "sub-Saharan" marker E-M35 sometime just prior to the LGM. The y-chromosome marker E-M81 is the defining NW African and Berber marker. This lineage emerged from marker E-M35 sometime during the mid-to-late Holocene (possibly the Bronze Age). The emergence of E-M81 directly from ancestral E-M35 would imply that the "Berbers" descend from a group that migrated from deep inner Africa relatively recently. If the "super-tropical" Naqada Egyptians descend from an ancestral group that was present in north Africa prior to the LGM why wouldn't the more recently migrated original "Berbers" be tropically adapted?
I am not certain about the wide range of Berber-speakers and it is important to remember what Berbers were described as until a few hundred years ago. But, I personally have never ever seen a true Berber that wasn't tropically adapted. That is why most still have deep brown complexions like their Afar Ethiopian, Watutsi, Woodabe, Rendili, Somali relatives. Many are in fact superbly adapted to super hot arid climate they apparently emerged from possessing ultra long limb proportions and ultradolichocephaly. The answer to where Berbers received these adaptations is the answer to where Nilotes originated.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What the **** do these last four posts have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times?
The whole question of white or near white complexioned "indigenous Africans" in the Sahara in ancient prehistoric times is speculative and pushing matters since there is no evidence of groups of indigenous "whites" in Africa, except for a few incidences of Moon faced women in rock art which may have been stylistic.
Archeology has shown from settlements of Greeks or peoples of Sicilian origin after the beginning of the iron age on coastal north Africa Kabyle area (between Algeria and Tunisia). Is this indigenous? There was movement or trickle of lateral headed peoples into northern Egypt between the 2nd and 6th dynasties which has long been known. But, neither archeology nor physical anthropological evidence attests to an early indigenous presence of "white" groups.
As this is not the first time you are posting these questions I would like to hear what evidence has been produced aside from this that has shown such a presence. The genetic evidence certainly doesn't prove otherwise. Egyptian tomb paintings haven't shown otherwise.
There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating.
I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom.
Perhaps modified like the Tuareg group below who've also absorbed Syrians and other peoples in recent times (according to Bornu manuscripts).
My point in bringing up Hyksos origins was to show that the name Mazikh or Imazigh from which it has been suggested the name "Mashwesh" was derived is of Hyksos i.e. Syro-Arabian Meluchha or Amlukh (Hyksos) or Musuri origin as were the dark-skinned people first and still called Masikh in Arabia. The appearance of fair-skinned people among North African Mazikh, known as "Ethiopians" even in Roman texts - as I have mentioned more than once on Egyptsearch forum - must mean that there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] This is a post of Neith-Athena's from another thread that I transposed here to be the initial post for the subject header.
I don't want to speak for Neith but I imagine she means neolithic people from the same areas the much later 19th Dynasty "Sea People" came from. I didn't take her literally.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] Neith-Athena ------------
I didn't understand this explanation so I won't respond, but I'm supposing at this stage people on this forum understand the difference between Neolithic peoples of Europe, i.e. predominantly African-looking people - and later Bronze and Iron Age Eurasiatics who were ancestral to modern mainly fair-skinned Greeks and Middle Eastern people speaking Afro-Asiatic dialects (genetics not withstanding).
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My original personal opinion was that north Meds creamed the old NA's coffee but not from NM males rather from NM females impregnated by NA males who procurred them from the north and island Mediterranean.
has broadened my original personal opinion to acknowledge a partial African minor origin in addition to the foreign major accretion which Keita also acknowledged.
In my personal opinion the BG 4:5 v30 renditions of creamy coloured TMHHW as the norm rather than an anomally means those "Libyans" were already very light skinned centuries before the 19th Dynasty.
At any rate, by this time, Egyptians classified them as reds in distinction to themselves and the Sudanis as blacks.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating.
I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom.
... there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh".
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: My original personal opinion was that north Meds creamed the old NA's coffee but not from NM males rather from NM females impregnated by NA males who procurred them from the north and island Mediterranean.
Evergreen Writes: Data analysis tells us that NW Africans and NE Africans have distinct mtDNA profiles. Hence they have divergent histories from a maternal standpoint.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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has broadened my original personal opinion to acknowledge a partial African minor origin in addition to the foreign major accretion which Keita also acknowledged.
Evergreen Writes: Keita's assertion above is not rooted in peer-reviewed scientific inquiry.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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