posted
What? Publication outside of a peer-reviewed journal makes information unreliable? Better throw out all the books in the university libraries' stacks. Say bye-bye to doctoral dissertations too.
We've quoted Dana's published works here before also, guess that was no good since she wasn't peer-reviewed.
She's not alone, the vast majority of citations presented in these forums were from scholars' articles and books that weren't published in peer-reviewed journals, now worthless.
Thus saith the word of God has been replaced by so printeth the journals of Peer-reviewer.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Keita's assertion above is not rooted in peer-reviewed scientific inquiry.
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posted
Any examples of "vast majority" of such citations?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Publication outside of a peer-reviewed journal makes information unreliable?
Evergreen Writes:
Not neccessarily, as long as there is a sound research basis.
What is the research basis to Keita's hypothesis? How does his research map to the current understanding of SLC24A5, OCA2 and other genetic signatures that speak to variation in melanin level and eye color?
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Ok, I too would like to know more behind his position like the identity of the evolving, restricted, skewed, non-representative, non-random Saharans that were supposed to be unusually light skinned as it does seem to buck the findings in 2006 about true transparent white skin. I had imagined the kind of white skin that's opaque to translucent with peach tints not rosy ones.
The colour of this TMHH I could imagine to be what he could mean but no, he's not as light as those stark white images that show up on Saharan rock art and if true to life they are problematic because they don't seem to resemble north Meds (but I guess I should get more analytical toward their attire at some point).
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quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
No.
A better question would be why is the arm on the white figure painted brown and why does the figure have the same body type as the other figure. Lastly, what do Africans who paint their body white to this day to the south of the Sahara have to do with these ancient Saharan peoples?
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posted
I guess my major problem is why in looking at so many paintings of "Libyans" one sees mainly those with reddish brown paint wearing off. This is not restricted to Libyans, but to Old Kingdom Egyptians, Syro-Canaanites and so called "Sea Peoples" like the Philistines (Peleset) and Hittites.
Are the paintings with red brown paint faded off the "Lebou" and below supposed to be evidence of "white Libyans", "Meshwesh" and "Sea Peoples"?
If so why are they represented the same color as Ramses?
Lebou
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
"Philistine" with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
And why does the Phillistine below WITHOUT THE PAINT COMING OFF on the tomb of Medinet Habu show that they were actually a dark brown color.
One thing is certain, and that is that as late as the time of the Ramessids and Seti many of these "Libyans" and "Sea Peoples" were far from being "creamy-colored".
Maybe someone needs to take up the study of chemical analysis of ancient Egyptian paints on this forum before some museum curator comes along and repaints them.
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posted
In my view the man in the top photo is a direct descendant of the ancient Tjehenu who have been found to have been represented similarly, but in a darker brown color in the Old Kingdom.
The braided hair-style and side-lock as well as the identical designs and tattoos on the costumes of the Libyans on the tomb of Seti make it likely that they are the ancestors of the modern Fellata or Woodabe Fulani. These people were called Tjehenou in the Western delta, and in Kharga Temehou during the Old Kingdom. The Lebou were derived from them as were the Imakuhek and Kuhek.
If the Maazauaza or Meshwesh did look different in New Kingdom times than that was apparently from Euro-Mediterranean infiltration after the Old Kingdom. The fact is they retained a similar appearance to earlier brown Libyans or Fellata and supposedly called themselves "Maa" which interestingly is a name for the Maasaai-Samburu group of dialects.
This still probably has little to do with the Caucasian appearance of many modern coastal Berbers calling themselves Masmuda, Sanhaja, Zenata, etc. A much more recent Eurasian and European genetic impact on the coasts of modern North Africa can not be understated. As ancient and Midieval documents are quite clear on what the Berbers on the coasts looked like. Except for the Cyrene area (a place of Greek and Scythian things) and Roman settlements - the coast was still dominated by mainly Ethiopic, i.e., Berber people - Mezikes, Mucateni or Uakutameni(Ketama or Makitan), Barzu Fulitani, Sanhaja (Lamtuna, Lamta, Gazzula), Zenata (Nafusa, Iforas Pharusii), Masmuda (Ghomara, Haskura of the Riff and Atlas)- all groups referred to as "black Africans" and or Ethiopians up until the 14th century.
The surprise is that even in the 19th century certain European colonialists appear not to reference fair-skinned Kabyles as part of the Berbers of Kabylia, or perhaps just weren't aware of their existence.
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quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
Or yet, could the so-called "white figures", which some take too literally, be just another expression of dichotomizing African groups by the painter/artist, just as the Kemetou and Beninese dichotomized African groups at times?
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posted
No one is denying there were brown skinned "Libyans." We've made that point here and concluded that up to past the age of Islam the further westward NAs were dark enough to be classed with blacks using Aeschylus, Manilius, and al~Jahiz as written proofs.
Denying that there were creamy coloured Tjemehu in 19th Dynasty AE art is an impossible premise.
What this thread seeks is not to prove ancient "Libyans" as a whole were non-white. What this thread seeks is to explain the origins of the creamy complexioned ancient Libyans depicted in AE art and the people painted using white for their skin coloring in Saharan art.
There were ALs much lighter than the AE norm and we find them in 19th dynasty pharaonic tombs in the sacred afterlife text Book of Gates: Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30 where they, along with the Levantines, are classed as red in distinction to Egyptians and Sudanis who are classed as black.
What is the source for such minority ALs who are of light complexion? That's what we're trying to arrive at.
Genetic reports offer us no help as the historians on their teams repeat as a mantra that "Eurasian" mtDNA only came on the scene after Islam. Yet we see "whites" in AE art and Saharan art. They are not figures of the imagination nor can all of them be explained away as blacks in whiteface.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I guess my major problem is why in looking at so many paintings of "Libyans" one sees mainly those with reddish brown paint wearing off. This is not restricted to Libyans, but to Old Kingdom Egyptians, Syro-Canaanites and so called "Sea Peoples" like the Philistines (Peleset) and Hittites.
Are the paintings with red brown paint faded off the "Lebou" and below supposed to be evidence of "white Libyans", "Meshwesh" and "Sea Peoples"?
If so why are they represented the same color as Ramses?
Lebou
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
. . . .
One thing is certain, and that is that as late as the time of the Ramessids and Seti many of these "Libyans" and "Sea Peoples" were far from being "creamy-colored".
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Examining a zoom of the questioned painting reveals that only his frontside is painted white. Not only is his arm painted brown but so is his head and face and the leftmost visible portions of his back, buttocks, and leg as well as his right forearm. This painting thus can't be used to support Saharan "whites" in Bovidian era/style rock art.
____________________________
Also placing it in context (I think Hachid's book may have the entire scene intact) the whitened guy appears to be part of the pastoralist group.
My take is, some kind of "entertainment" is taking place and I have no guess as to what is attached to the waists of the "entertainers".
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
No.
A better question would be why is the arm on the white figure painted brown and why does the figure have the same body type as the other figure. Lastly, what do Africans who paint their body white to this day to the south of the Sahara have to do with these ancient Saharan peoples?
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Examining a zoom of the questioned painting reveals that only the man's frontside is painted white. Not only is his arm painted brown but so is his head and face and the leftmost visible parts of the back, buttocks, and leg, as well as his right forearm.
I thus cannot use this painting in support of Saharan "whites" in Bovidian era/style rock art.
___________
Also placing it in context (I think Hachid's book may have the entire scene intact) the whitened guy appears to be part of the pastoralist group.
My take is, some kind of "entertainment" is taking place and I have no guess as to what is attached to the waists of the "entertainers".
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
No.
A better question would be why is the arm on the white figure painted brown and why does the figure have the same body type as the other figure. Lastly, what do Africans who paint their body white to this day to the south of the Sahara have to do with these ancient Saharan peoples?
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posted
If we want to deal with the the white images of Temehou we will have to acknowledge the fact that the Temehou were depicted as much purely European like as much as creamy-colored Africans. As is obvious, Egyptians only used such names as Aamu and Temehu in a general sense for of populations of diverse origin and appearance next to them. The question then becomes where did the early European-looking Temehu (who look nothing like modern Europeans and nothing like Africans (in attire or hairstyle) shown in Diop's book -African Origins of Civilization - come from. I believe it would be of benefit to look at the northern Mediterranean as you suggested rather than making connections with modern North African populations.
As everyone knows on this forum there are plenty of individuals implying Eurasian "Berber" dna dates back to the Paleolithic though it appears to be mostly attributable to recent amalgamation.
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posted
DJ mentioned scholars suggesting a relationship of the Tjemehu with fairer skinned Kabyles.
Since the biology and culture of modern fair-skinned kabyle people (according to Berber specialists like Gabriel Camps) have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Archeology in the region shows late or iron age links to Sicily/Sardinian area which could show represent the Greek or Sardinian link.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ....the biology....of modern fair-skinned kabyle people .... have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Evergreen Writes: This is just not true. NW Africans have y-chromosome patterns that are predominately African and mtDNA patterns that are predominiately SW (NOT SE) European in origin.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ....the biology....of modern fair-skinned kabyle people .... have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Evergreen Writes: This is just not true. NW Africans have y-chromosome patterns that are predominately African and mtDNA patterns that are predominiately SW (NOT SE) European in origin.
Obviously not all NW Africans are predominantly African and if the female genetics show modern SW European and not SE European origin than it probably speaks to more recent influences.
Large numbers of French, Italian and Spanish captives were brought into Algeria, along with Greeks. who then became mercenaries and helped to bring in populations from villages of southern Europe. Some villages are said, in fact, to have become depopulated.
From Algeria: A Country Study, American University Foreign Area Studies, 1986 p. 23
"By 1600 the population of Algiers had grown to approximately 100,000 of whom perhaps one-third were renegades - Spanish, Greek, Italian and French captives who had apostazed and become "Turks by profession," manning the Barbary corsairs that preyed on shipping and raided the European coasts of the western Mediterranean to capture and carry away hostages to be held for ransom or as merchandise for the slave markets. During the 'golden age' of Barbary piracy in the seventeeth century, the city's slave population is estimated to have numbered as high as 30,000."
Similar commerce occured to help create other cities along the coast. So I guess that helps settle the matter.
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posted
Don't know how much is has to do with skin colour as far as the extreme whiteness modern Euros have, but this report posits the likelihood of breeding on Eurasian females by NA males to go back to the "Mechta-Afalou" and it also advocates continuity in Eurasian mtDNA prevalence over a 12ky period from 10,000 BCE to now.
posted
Its long been known speculated even based on similarities anthropological attributes Mechta Afalou, i.e. types found in Ibero-Maurusian and Jebel Sahaba in Nubia,- dolichocephalic Cro-magnons in Europe and other Paleolithic-mesolithic populations in Europe and Eurasia were related. Modern genetic-based studies on crania have said the same thing.
"As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
On the other hand, more recent or modern peoples in Eurasia have to some extent absorbed ancient Eurasiatics and thus genetic continuity to some degree would be expected.
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Loring Brace was suprised to discover, based on his studies on genetic traits of European and Eurasiatic crania, that these blacks were not closely linked to modern people around the Mediterranean. He stated, “Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants..."
Another wall mural from Chatal Huyuk
Afro-Mediterraneans predominated in "Eurasia" until the latter part of the Bronze Age - as evidenced by crania and skeletons and art depictions.
As with this art, rock art of other peoples found in the Syro-Arabian deserts and around the Mediterranean differ from the later portrayal of Europoid "Eurasians", a stockier built, hairsute people who portray themselves in later art in the same area of Turkey with fair-skins, beards, and longer straight hair.
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The depictions of these people and those of the ancient Saharans and East Africans could probably be mistaken for one another.
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posted
Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia. It would help this thread to include pre-historic art from Iberia and western Mediterranean islands.
They, if showing females and from the time period mentioned, would throw more light on the topic.
BTW Body type isn't always an indicator of mtDNA or nrY chromosome genotype.
Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
posted
Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia because Eurasia is. You mentioned Eurasia not Iberia, i.e. Spain and Portugal.
It would also be of help if the two (Eurasia and Iberia) weren't confused.
Nevertheless, Iberian art shows people of similar complexion and non-Europoid appearance.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
What it more likely shows is movement of populations and the similar origin of early NW Africans and early Eurasiatics.
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posted
I just want to be clear about what you're saying so I ask if you mean -- and assuming you read Kefi and Rhouda -- that mtDNA haplogroups CRS and other H or U, and JT, and V derived in Africa?
These studies cannot be ignored because they conflict with previously held convictions. They must be met head on, analysed and critiqued where we find disagreement.
For instancce, in the PPt Kefi throws out TafVIII. Is it in order to deny an inner African component in epipaleolithic Taforalt? It is the only sample of possible L3, M, or N affiliation. There were only two U6 samples yet Kefi did not exclude them among originators of "Ibero-Maurusians."
Clearly if the L3/M/N individual was found at Taforalt then she was just as much an "Ibero-Maurusian" originator as the two U6 females were. 4% is as weighty as 8% when the true heavy weight ranks in at 50%.
Also, it is very significant that an L3/M/N female was living that far north so near the very shoreline of N Africa at that point in time with her other African mtDNA sisters of the U6 haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Its long been known speculated even based on similarities anthropological attributes Mechta Afalou, i.e. types found in Ibero-Maurusian and Jebel Sahaba in Nubia,- dolichocephalic Cro-magnons in Europe and other Paleolithic-mesolithic populations in Europe and Eurasia were related. Modern genetic-based studies on crania have said the same thing.
"As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
On the other hand, more recent or modern peoples in Eurasia have to some extent absorbed ancient Eurasiatics and thus genetic continuity to some degree would be expected.
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posted
Remember the littoral NA nrY chromosomes are predominantly African, only the mtDNA is mostly non-African. Can the same be shown for SW Europe.
Anyway, part of the point of the thread is identifying origins of "white" skin in NAs and yes it's a given there've been population movements. How could there have been static populations across such a broad swath of land area?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
What it more likely shows is movement of populations and the similar origin of early NW Africans and early Eurasiatics.
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] Remember the littoral NA nrY chromosomes are predominantly African, only the mtDNA is mostly non-African. Can the same be shown for SW Europe.
Anyway, part of the point of the thread is identifying origins of "white" skin in NAs and yes it's a given there've been population movements. How could there have been static populations across such a broad swath of land area?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb]
Why would Europeans be shown to be the same as NAs. Europe has a completely different history then does modern North Africa? I must be missing something here.
I also never said anything about static populations.
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posted
Currently Eurasia refers to the super-continent composed of Europe and Asia and is not limited to the region where Europe and Asia abutt as it was defined in older social sciences where it also meant a person who had one parent who was European and one parent who was Asian.
Eurasian mtDNA applies to any and all DNA that did not originate in continental Africa. I, and a few others, class the Arabian tectonic plate lands as geological Africa and so class people and haplotypes/haplogroups orininating there as African not Eurasian, but that point of view is not held in consensus here.
Sorry, maybe I should've supplied these definitions earlier instead of taking it for granted being here and seeing the term used that way on these forums by the veterans who were here before I got here that all would understand it that way.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia because Eurasia is. You mentioned Eurasia not Iberia, i.e. Spain and Portugal.
It would also be of help if the two (Eurasia and Iberia) weren't confused.
Nevertheless, Iberian art shows people of similar complexion and non-Europoid appearance.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Don't know how much is has to do with skin colour as far as the extreme whiteness modern Euros have, but this report posits the likelihood of breeding on Eurasian females by NA males to go back to the "Mechta-Afalou" and it also advocates continuity in Eurasian mtDNA prevalence over a 12ky period from 10,000 BCE to now.
Evergreen Writes: Kefi's research is a good example of non-multidisciplinary research. Kefi is a geneticist. This research focused on the extraction and genetic analysis of late pleistocene Taforalt remains from NW Africa. The results of this research do not provide evidence of continuity between the Taforalt and neolithic, Bronze Age and later "Berber"populations. In fact, archaeology, linguistics, genetic analysis and cranial analysis indicate east to west migration into a landscape with low population density.
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posted
That's true for the male component which was completely overlooked by Kefi and probably by intent to avoid recognizing any sub-Saharan input within the now dominant strain of NAs.
But what about the female component? Is it not predominantly SW European making the movement from the north toward the south and them both southerly and toward the east?
It seems Saharan and supra-Saharan NAs have to be looked at seperately by sex to find evidence pro or con for continuity if such exists for them throughout time, no?
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posted
al "Hot Indonesian Chicks" Takruri wrote: ------------------------------- What this thread seeks is not to prove ancient "Libyans" as a whole were non-white. What this thread seeks is to explain the origins of the creamy complexioned ancient Libyans depicted in AE art and the people painted using white for their skin coloring in Saharan art. -------------------------------
Maybe they are just a reflection of African diversity. Your color struck ass is proving to be one of the more imbecillic posters ever on this for forum.
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dana marniche wrote: -------------------------------- This still probably has little to do with the Caucasian appearance --------------------------------
What is a caucasian appearance?
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But what about the female component? Is it not predominantly SW European making the movement from the north toward the south and them both southerly and toward the east?
Evergreen Writes:
Keep in mind that we are focused on the superficial phenetic characteristics of skin color on this thread. The SLC24A5 locus is said to explain between 25–38% of the European-African difference in skin melanin variation. This trait seems to have evolved in SE Europe **after** the period in which the sampled Taforalt were to have lived.
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posted
Precisely why I wrote "Don't know how much [th]is has to do with skin colour as far as the extreme whiteness modern Euros have" when I introduced Kefi's work into the discussion.
What explains the skin colour variation in other populations outside of Africa who are on average lighter than most Africans?
What explains the 62-75% bulk of the European- African difference in skin melanin variation having nothing to do with SLC24A5?
Could such factors have influenced the colour of Eurasian mtDNA contributors to the Taforalt epipaleolithic population?
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: dana marniche wrote: -------------------------------- This still probably has little to do with the Caucasian appearance --------------------------------
What is a caucasian appearance?
This is a good question, argyle. When I said "Caucasoid appearance", I meant in the way it is popularly used for modern European people. When I say modern European people I separate them from ancient neolithic, mesolithic and paleolithic peoples who were apparently largely of black African affiliation.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia. It would help this thread to include pre-historic art from Iberia and western Mediterranean islands.
They, if showing females and from the time period mentioned, would throw more light on the topic.
BTW Body type isn't always an indicator of mtDNA or nrY chromosome genotype.
Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
I still don't understand why Eurasian related mtDNA of 12,000 years ago would have to mean some Eurasians were necessarily imported. DNA findings concur with other genetic evidenc as brought forth by Brace and morphological and osteological and archeological evidence which suggests a close affiliation between mesolithic and neolithic peoples across Europe, the Mediterranean and northern Africa.
Brace does say "Eurasia" (western Europe extending to Asia) was occupied mainly by peoples similar to populations in northern and northeast Africa up until the Bronze Age. He also says that there were other populations that were found at a few neolithic sites that correspond to peoples now living in much of Europe or Eurasia.
A relevant question is what if anything do dna studies say about these two "European" or "Eurasiatic" types that were already obviously distinct in the neolithic?
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posted
Okay! DJ is back from his Christmas vacation, and as usual he is overwhelmed by the pounds of scholarly discussions he has missed! So far I've only been able to read what I've missed in this bumped thread. So where to begin?...
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.
The fact that all early representations of Libyans as being of the same complexion of Egyptians has been made time and again in this forum.
quote:Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars).
Takruri addressed this in several threads discussing the origin of the Fulani, most recently here. While there is similarity in dress there are also obvious differences as well as differences in georgraphic range and language between the Wodaabe proper and the ancient Libyans.
quote: According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004
Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae.
These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb.
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art
Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger).
The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess.
This is the first I've heard of the bi-trangular shape being found in Nubia. I know that it was present in Tasili as well as other places in the Sahara. Whether this geometric symbol is related to the Minoan double axe remains to be seen, however there are Old Kingdom tombs featuring decorations in the form of the double-axe. Whether this is due to Minoan influence or vice-versa-- that the Minoans got it from the Egyptians remains to be seen.
quote: The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham.
Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs.
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak).
These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih.
Ifuras Tuareg of Mali
The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha.
No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds".
I thought the Tuareg were a matrilineal society. Is such a paternal genealogy rooted in actual Berber tradition or was it an Islamized tradition?? If you are postulating a connection to Hyksos are you suggesting that the Hyksos kings and chieftains did more than just make contact with Libyans? Are you aware of predynastic connections between Libyans and Canaanites via the Egyptian Delta, that was suggested by some scholars? If so, is that what you are stating?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum.
Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans?
Not only the Minoans but Mycenae, but the Aegean in general.
For more on African influence in the Aegean, you can look here.
quote: I am not certain about the wide range of Berber-speakers and it is important to remember what Berbers were described as until a few hundred years ago. But, I personally have never ever seen a true Berber that wasn't tropically adapted. That is why most still have deep brown complexions like their Afar Ethiopian, Watutsi, Woodabe, Rendili, Somali relatives. Many are in fact superbly adapted to super hot arid climate they apparently emerged from possessing ultra long limb proportions and ultradolichocephaly. The answer to where Berbers received these adaptations is the answer to where Nilotes originated.
As many have noted, the 'Berber' languages proper share a common origin with Egyptian and other Afrasian languages which lie somewhere in Saharan to Sub-Saharan East Africa. I believe Evergreen himself noted that proto-Berber may have arisen in the Sudan. As such tropical adaptations being the norm and not the exception is no surprise.
quote: The whole question of white or near white complexioned "indigenous Africans" in the Sahara in ancient prehistoric times is speculative and pushing matters since there is no evidence of groups of indigenous "whites" in Africa, except for a few incidences of Moon faced women in rock art which may have been stylistic.
Archeology has shown from settlements of Greeks or peoples of Sicilian origin after the beginning of the iron age on coastal north Africa Kabyle area (between Algeria and Tunisia). Is this indigenous? There was movement or trickle of lateral headed peoples into northern Egypt between the 2nd and 6th dynasties which has long been known. But, neither archeology nor physical anthropological evidence attests to an early indigenous presence of "white" groups.
As this is not the first time you are posting these questions I would like to hear what evidence has been produced aside from this that has shown such a presence. The genetic evidence certainly doesn't prove otherwise. Egyptian tomb paintings haven't shown otherwise.
There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating.
I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom.
Perhaps modified like the Tuareg group below who've also absorbed Syrians and other peoples in recent times (according to Bornu manuscripts).
My point in bringing up Hyksos origins was to show that the name Mazikh or Imazigh from which it has been suggested the name "Mashwesh" was derived is of Hyksos i.e. Syro-Arabian Meluchha or Amlukh (Hyksos) or Musuri origin as were the dark-skinned people first and still called Masikh in Arabia. The appearance of fair-skinned people among North African Mazikh, known as "Ethiopians" even in Roman texts - as I have mentioned more than once on Egyptsearch forum - must mean that there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh".
I believe you are getting closer to heart of the matter here. It was Takruri and Ausar who pointed out on several occasions that during their colonization of North Africa, the Greeks spoke of a people called 'Leuco-aethiopies'. These white ethiopians had to have come from somewhere in Europe originally.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I guess my major problem is why in looking at so many paintings of "Libyans" one sees mainly those with reddish brown paint wearing off. This is not restricted to Libyans, but to Old Kingdom Egyptians, Syro-Canaanites and so called "Sea Peoples" like the Philistines (Peleset) and Hittites.
Are the paintings with red brown paint faded off the "Lebou" and below supposed to be evidence of "white Libyans", "Meshwesh" and "Sea Peoples"?
If so why are they represented the same color as Ramses?
Lebou
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
"Philistine" with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
And why does the Phillistine below WITHOUT THE PAINT COMING OFF on the tomb of Medinet Habu show that they were actually a dark brown color.
One thing is certain, and that is that as late as the time of the Ramessids and Seti many of these "Libyans" and "Sea Peoples" were far from being "creamy-colored".
Maybe someone needs to take up the study of chemical analysis of ancient Egyptian paints on this forum before some museum curator comes along and repaints them.
I have been looking a long time for depictions of dark/black Libyans with traces of paint still left and to be honest this is the first time I've ever seen it, at least close-up! Now that I look at it, the facial profiles of these Lebou particularly in the nose remind me of Tuareg. I've heard many try to compare the noses to those of Fulani types like the Wodaabe but the high bridge and short tip are more like Tuareg, as is the wavy hair and fuller beards. Such facial features and hair also hark back to those Tjehenu depicted in Old Kingdom reliefs as well as depictions of early Delta peoples from proto-dynastic times including the Narmer Palette which might lend credence to the theory of Delta Egyptians having Libyan ancestry. Though one main difference between these New Kingdom Lebu and the Old Kingdom Tjhenu is in dress. From the few examples I've seen, the Tjehenu both males and females wore shirt skirts or loincloths and were topless except cross-bandaliers which they wore on their chests. In fact the long draped tunics of the Lebu remind me more of Canaanite/Levantine types than anything else. As for your claims on the Philistines, this reminds me that according to Hebrew writings there were two main groups of Philistines with the earlier group said to be descended from Casluhim which was offspring of Mizraim (Egypt) and that the Caphtorim (Cretans/Minoans) are also descended from Mizraim. It's probable that these people represent early sea-faring groups from Africa as opposed to the later Sea Peoples of Anatolia and Europe which included the later Philistines. Such is another topic I would like to discuss next time.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: DJ mentioned scholars suggesting a relationship of the Tjemehu with fairer skinned Kabyles.
Since the biology and culture of modern fair-skinned kabyle people (according to Berber specialists like Gabriel Camps) have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Archeology in the region shows late or iron age links to Sicily/Sardinian area which could show represent the Greek or Sardinian link.
Yes, in books I've read about the peoples of North Africa and specifically the Berber, there is a theory postulated that tries to connect the modern fair-skinned Berber with the fair-skinned Tamahu of Egyptian records. As Evergreen pointed out, these people possess African paternal lineages but European maternal lineages so the question remains exactly where in Europe did these maternal lineages come from?
One theory I've heard states it is specifically Iberia (Spain and Portugal region) that this ancestry originated. We know about the mesolithic Ibero-Maurusian culture which crossed the Gilbraltar Straits from Morocco into Iberia. We have evidence of not only African cranial features and skeletons in Iberia but also lineages in the form of E3b but even E2 associated with Berber men in that region as well as animals like cattle. It is more than possible then that a migration the other way around happened whether around that time or much later. There is also another theory as pointed out by Dana that a migration from Europe could have taken place by way of the Italian islands into the Tunisian or Algerian coasts. We know from evidence on the Island of Malta that there was an African presence dating from the neolithic as well, which was later displaced by European cultures. So the two easiest passages that Southwest Europeans can make into North Africa is across the straits of Gibraltar into or Morocco or island hop from Italy to Tunisia or Algeria.
Again, I must ask what does the genetic data show for the populations of these areas? (Evergreen?)
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What explains the skin colour variation in other populations outside of Africa who are on average lighter than most Africans?
Evergreen Writes: How does this relate to "White" Africa?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Could such factors have influenced the colour of Eurasian mtDNA contributors to the Taforalt epipaleolithic population?
Evergreen Writes:
I don't think so. As late as the mesolithic period (post-dating the Taforalt period) Europeans were still semi-tropically adapted.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
The 10,000 Year Explosion
By Cochran and Harpending
"Many of these changes seem to be quite recent. The mutation that appears to have the greatest effect on skin color among Europeans and neighboring peoples, a variant of SLC24A5, has spread with astonishing speed. Linkage disquuilibrium - that is, the degree to which the genome is surprisingly uniform around this gene - suggests that it came into existence about 5,800 years ago..."
"It would have spread so rapidly that, over a long lifetime, a farmer could have noticed the change in appearance in his village. Again, if it is that recent, it must have had a more limited distribution in early historical times, particularly in peripheral areas: In fact, this may explain the Roman impression that the Picts of Scotland were dark-skinned".
Evergreen Writes:
Indigenous Europeans with melanin-level variation as late as the Bronze Age.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Thanks for your responses Djehuti I am excited at the prospect of some of what you said.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
The fact that all early representations of Libyans as being of the same complexion of Egyptians has been made time and again in this forum... While there is similarity in dress there are also obvious differences as well as differences in georgraphic range and language between the Wodaabe proper and the ancient Libyans.
Yes, I have been on the pages on this forum addressing the appearance of early Libyans and their attire spoken of by Bates, Mueller and more recently Constantino and Van Offelen. It is much more than hairstyles and attire however, it is the fact that the Libyans referred to are represented in the paintings of the late time of Seti and it is the near identical details of their designs and tattoos still present in the Libyan and Woodabe attire. This suggests a connection of late Libyans with Woodabe, although these Libyans within the sphere of Egypt appear to have by this time already been mixed with fair-skinned people.
As for the present Fulani dialect,of course language doesn't always mean that much. As I mentioned in my article in, Golden Age of the Moors, some Fulani when encountered by early colonialists were speaking dialects so different they were thought to have had an origin external to Africa. What dialect this was, however, I don't know.
Furthermore, we have millions of people now speaking Afro-Asiatic dialects that are for the most part not of Afro-Asiatic origin. As for the geographic aspect I would have to also say we all know the Woodabe peoples are pastoral nomadic peoples that are part of the Fulani or Fellata or Bororo. They today extend from West to East Africa and from Algeria and Libya to Chad, Sudan and Egypt today which makes it not unlikely that they could have been in Egypt yesterday.
Their longtime presence among Niger-Congo speakers can likely explain their dialects, just as the longtime presence of Watutsi among Bantu can probably explain the present Tutsi language.
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posted
^ I don't understand what you mean here by Afroasiatic origin. Are you referring to the actual populations who spread the languages as opposed to the languages themselves? Language like any other cultural feature can be transmitted between populations without any actual genetic exchange. If you are suggesting that there was an exchange in clothing style as well as body art between the Lebou and Niger-Congo speakers like the Wodaabe, it is very possible. In fact, even linguistic influence is also plausible considering the striking similarity between the Wolof language and that of ancient Egyptian as first cited by Chiek Diop.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This is the first I've heard of the bi-trangular shape being found in Nubia. I know that it was present in Tasili as well as other places in the Sahara. Whether this geometric symbol is related to the Minoan double axe remains to be seen, however there are Old Kingdom tombs featuring decorations in the form of the double-axe. Whether this is due to Minoan influence or vice-versa-- that the Minoans got it from the Egyptians remains to be seen.
I thought the Tuareg were a matrilineal society. Is such a paternal genealogy rooted in actual Berber tradition or was it an Islamized tradition?? If you are postulating a connection to Hyksos are you suggesting that the Hyksos kings and chieftains did more than just make contact with Libyans? Are you aware of predynastic connections between Libyans and Canaanites via the Egyptian Delta, that was suggested by some scholars? If so, is that what you are stating? [/QUOTE]
I neglected to mention the double-axe is also known for being associated with the deity Chango or Shango in West Africa. The latter is known from east to west in Africa under variants of the same name as Dongo, Ru'hang, Hangi, Ngi, Ngai,etc. The deity is associated with water and thunder and is the Lord of "high and low places". I attribute the deity "Inachus"(as most other Gods found in the Aegean and Greece to the presence of Afro-Asiatic/Amelekite Hyksos and their movement into the Aegean and Mediterranean (including Crete). Chango or Aman Ngi is intricately intertwined into the African cosmoastronomical mythos, which is one of the reasons I bet on an African origin for the double-axe.
And yes the double axe motif is found on early so called "Meroitic" pottery in Nubia at Karanog and other places. In rock art bi-triangular schematisme is also associated with warriors who hold the wrist knife and where feathers in their hair like modern Afar/Danakil and Beli of Chad. The Tuareg also have or had this wrist knives. Thank God for Richmond Palmer who first pointed out some of this evidence in his Bornu Sahara and Sudan. These connections first led me to the theory that the Afar-Danakil were somehow connected with the Iforas and Kel Dinneg Tuareg as well as the name of the early chariot using "Pharusii" of Libya and Ethiopia. It also inferred for me a connection of late Kushitic peoples with the Tuareg or Zenata and other people formerly called Mauri further north.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't understand what you mean here by Afroasiatic origin. Are you referring to the actual populations who spread the languages as opposed to the languages themselves? Language like any other cultural feature can be transmitted between populations without any actual genetic exchange. If you are suggesting that there was an exchange in clothing style as well as body art between the Lebou and Niger-Congo speakers like the Wodaabe, it is very possible. In fact, even linguistic influence is also plausible considering the striking similarity between the Wolof language and that of ancient Egyptian as first cited by Chiek Diop.
I don't think it was a matter of exchange. I think some Woodabe, Futa-be or Lebou got mixed with other people during the time between the Intermediate period of Egypt and Seti.
Yes - I am referring to the people that spread the Afro-Asiatic or "semitic" language group into Arabia and the Near East.
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posted
As for LeucoEthiopes I have always supposed they had to be talking of either the Scythian Seres who had settled southern Arabia and the horn, or the Scythians of Cyrene who may have settled in Ethiopia. As you say that were probably Europeans related.
Judging from the descriptions of the early Mauri inhabitants of the Maghreb coasts as Ethiopians I suspect it wasn't a reference to light skinned Tuareg, whose ancestors - Iforas, Levathes or Leuathae, Mucatateni/Kutameni(modern Imakitan), Cadenit (modern Kel Cadenit), Zigritae, Mezikes etc. were at various times called "Ethiopians" or at least said to resemble them. The Tuareg in African manuscripts mixed with Syrians and Khorasanis and Turks and Tartars in the Midieval era.
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You mentioned Eurasia not Iberia, i.e. Spain and Portugal. 
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