Fon me-wi:black people nya/na-wi:male/female black (very dark or pitch black complexion nya/na-vo:male/female red (lighter than average skin complexion
Yoruba dudu:black light-skinned Africans are referred to as pupa:red-yellow (think 'palm oil') and funfun:White (albinos).
Ibo ojii:black ocha:white
Then there are the Kel taGelmust with their various designations for themselves, coastal Berbers, and Gnawas, yellow, white, grey; or internal assignments by class noble, vassal, and enslaved, red green black.
You black guys who have no other identity than Black just don't get it or don't want to get it. USA will never dominate our own precise choice terms for our skin colours. ]
Doug comment?
.
I've no beef with 98% of DougM's presentation.
Throughout recorded history the people of lands bordering the Indian Ocean are known as blacks when compared to north and north east of the Mediterranean peoples.
Anthropologically, black has never and will never be relegated to negro. Is there a negro crayon, a negro dog, a negro car, etc
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] BTW - @ Lioness and newbies. That is the same marketing ploy FTDNA used when they labeled some genetic materials as the “Tut” gene or the “Thuya” gene. It is all marketing spin for the gullible.
Shouldn't this be addressed to yourself since you did the exact same thing ?
lioness productions, squashing suckas like antsPosts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Horseshit, my cuz never said no **** about no damn Tut gene or such BULLISH
He know the diff between gene allele haplotype / STR profile.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
So, Swenet, I hope you give it a rest….finally. Amarnas are NOT closer to the Horners compared to the Great Lakes and Southern Africans. First, read and understand the charts. Horners have a higher Tribescore in specific (ie a sub-set) genetic material. BUT Southern Africans have a closer match in MOST, MOST MOST genetic material.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
yes. I did the same thing but I corrected it.......But i said the "Amarna gene" which is misleading.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
The above translates to – so the Amarnas DNA...
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] BTW - @ Lioness and newbies. That is the same marketing ploy FTDNA used when they labeled some genetic materials as the “Tut” gene or the “Thuya” gene. It is all marketing spin for the gullible.
Shouldn't this be addressed to yourself since you did the exact same thing ?
lioness productions, squashing suckas like ants
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: How long have Swenet /Kalonji have been posting here. You know he is a spinmaster.
You credit me with a lot of powers, gramps. Thanks, I guess.
But do let me know when you're going to address this without running away or copping out.
Edit: replaced with latest version.
Note that the alleles are color-coded using Hawass et al 2010. So the dark green cells stands for Amenhotep III, the pink ones for Yuya and the blue ones for Thuya.
Note that the Copt sample came out last whereas they came out with the most hits p/p before I had the chance to double check everything. I also used a better counting method.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
So?
Ain't I told you MLI is proprietary it is not replicable science.
U ain't get it last page where I threw down my stance
gimme profile samples I check em against data
science puddy tat science I'll leave pussyfooting 2 u
Though again I have no beef how Africans themselves classify themselves.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm an Americanized Mauritanian Toucouleur Fulani of the Torodbe class with very recent Libyan bani Yisra'el paternal ancestry. I have Kameroun Hamidou kinsmen and in fact my genetic profile is more indicative of Central West Africa than Atlantic West Africa.
I can only post as my new Jamakan 4th wife (all kids from previous marriages and dalliances grown and out the house) permits me to steal moments away from her attentive affection. Never thought I'd love a down yard woman but life is full of surprises, just wait you'll see.
Cool!
Also if you mind me asking are the "Arabs" in Mauritania just Arabized Berbers? Because many people have this silly idea that they are Arabs from the peninsula. I just want to get my answers from an actual Mauritanian.
Also what are the relationship between "Arabs" and "Black Africans" in Mauritania, because the western media seems to indicate that there is so type of "race war" or the light skin "Arabs" enslaving the darker "Black Africans".
Again want to get my answers from an actual Mauritaniam plus I have not met many Mauritanians on the net.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't want to rehearse slavery and expulsions of the last 30 years. Stirs emotions I'd rather leave submerged. Mauritania's a shameful place but some Yemeni Hasaniya Arabic speakers whatever Arab or Zenaga etc blood they have are neutral and even anti-racist.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't want to rehearse slavery and expulsions of the last 30 years. Stirs emotions I'd rather leave submerged. Mauritania's a shameful place but some Yemeni Hasaniya Arabic speakers whatever Arab or Zenaga etc blood they have are neutral and even anti-racist.
But enough. How bout some of your bio?
Understood.
As for me African-American and Haitian. Ask away. Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Great share!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Edit: replaced with latest version.
Note that the alleles are color-coded using Hawass et al 2010. So the dark green cells stands for Amenhotep III, the pink ones for Yuya and the blue ones for Thuya.
Note that the Copt sample came out last whereas they came out with the most hits p/p before I had the chance to double check everything. I also used a better counting method.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ↑ That is EXACTLY what it all boils down to: made-made RULES.
When I say that the AE weren't black according to a particular tradition, some knuckleheads think I'm questioning the Africanity of the AE.
If many brown and dark brown skinned North Africans fall outside of the definition of 'black' of a particular observer, and I acknowledge that such a definition exists (e.g. Ptolemy who only considered the tribes around Meroe "pure Aethiopians" and "true blacks"), that doesn't mean that I'm co-signing that tradition.
SMH. These are subjective rules, and yes, if someone uses 'black' in reference to any other skin tone than what visually appears to be jet-black skin, their own definition of 'black', whatever it is, is based on subjective rules. And yes, Ptolemy's definition of who has 'black' skin is more defensible than other definitions of who has 'black' skin, including the al Jahiz one I've subscribed to in the past.
If you're going to argue that Ptolemy is wrong for applying brown to brown-skinned Egyptians and lower Nubians and black to those further south who had jet-black skin, you're chemically imbalanced and I don't need to be talking to you.
Here is the problem. The word black has been used for all those people from Egypt down to Cape town since thousands of years ago. And the word black in the english dictionary is not defined as someone who is black as tar. Neither is it used that way in Europe or by racists. Black skin among all of these folks refers to the shades of brown skin from tropically adapted populations in and out of Africa. That is the point I have been making since page one.
If you follow this thread you will see even your own racist scholars say that. So no, it isn't an issue of definitions of terms. Everybody on this planet knows what white white skin is and what black skin is as references to skin color. Yet somehow folks want to come on this forum and act like all of a sudden there is some 'mystery' as to what black means in terms of populations in tropical areas like Africa. There is no mystery and people know full damn well what someone means when they say the AE were black folks.
SO again, going all the way back to page one, it is a question of damn skin color. Period. There is nothing else to it. And whatever philosophy you have on what words you want to use that doesn't change the fact that the historic debate over the words black in reference to AE has ALWAYS been about skin color. This isn't an issue of semantics. It is an issue of skin color. Racists want the AE to be closer to Europeans in complexion, meaning very light and white skinned and not like any complexion found among the majority population of Africans who come in various shades. That has always been the point and that has always been well understood especially on this damn forum. For you to sit here and talk that bull sh*t that this is all some misunderstanding of 'terminology' where the racists and all these white folks have actually been calling the AE 'black' using other words is you talking pure bull sh*t out of the crack of your behind.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: How long have Swenet /Kalonji have been posting here. You know he is a spinmaster.
^What happened to all that mouth, Xyyman? Allll that mouth and now quiet as a church mouse.
For those who are noticing the unexpected position of the Greater Syrian sample (given what we know about the cline of Egyptian ancestry in Eurasia), note that the file containing this sample seems to be damaged (or maybe something went wrong during sequencing) as many of the sampled individuals have zeros in their genotypes. I'm sure that eastern Mediterranean samples will turn out to have a similar amount of hits p/p as the Greek sample.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
It goes without saying but I just read my post again and it read like my comments on Ptolemy could've been directed at Punos. They weren't, of course; I co-signed his post.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: And yes, Ptolemy's definition of who has 'black' skin is more defensible than other definitions of who has 'black' skin, including the al Jahiz one I've subscribed to in the past.
More clarification: "more defensible" simply means that Ptolemy's use of 'black' and brown/"moderately black" are more descriptive and so they run into fewer problems and inconsistencies when used in anthropological discussions than the more abstract and figurative traditions of 'black'. That doesn't mean that 'black' is in my vocabulary again. I'm just making observations.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: For all the numerous Egyptian texts no one has produced one that talks about human skin being a color.
And notably the Egyptians didn't even use the word Kem in relation to Nubians
Why do you keep regurgitating this long ago disproven bullshit?
Akhenaten's Hymn explicitly mentions humanity has variegated skin colour and both the Gate of Teka Hra & Book of Nights explicitly use km.t to label Nehhesu black.
You already know that and I only make this post to make plain a liar's incessant repitition doesn't transform the lie into the truth and I'd hate to see any newbie make an idiot of themselves falling for a lie because of a liar's reiterations.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: For all the numerous Egyptian texts no one has produced one that talks about human skin being a color.
And notably the Egyptians didn't even use the word Kem in relation to Nubians
Why do you keep regurgitating this long ago disproven bullshit?
Akhenaten's Hymn explicitly mentions humanity has variegated skin colour and both the Gate of Teka Hra & Book of Nights explicitly use km.t to label Nehhesu black.
You already know that and I only make this post to make plain a liar's incessant repitition doesn't transform the lie into the truth and I'd hate to see any newbie make an idiot of themselves falling for a lie because of a liar's reiterations.
Your comment is misleading
Hymn of Akenhaten ( Great Hymn to the Aten)
quote: How manifold it is, what thou hast made! They are hidden from the face (of man). O sole god, like whom there is no other! Thou didst create the world according to thy desire, Whilst thou wert alone: All men, cattle, and wild beasts, Whatever is on earth, going upon (its) feet, And what is on high, flying with its wings. The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt, Thou settest every man in his place, Thou suppliest their necessities: Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned. Their tongues are separate in speech, And their natures as well; Their skins are distinguished, As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples. Thou makest a Nile in the underworld, Thou bringest forth as thou desirest To maintain the people (of Egypt) According as thou madest them for thyself, The lord of all of them, wearying (himself) with them, The lord of every land, rising for them, The Aton of the day, great of majesty
Bottom line no specific colors are mentioned
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Gate of Teka Hra & Book of Nights explicitly use km.t to label Nehhesu black.
Again you mislead, and purposely don't put up the text quote Secondly there is no evidence that km.t refers to skin, so you need to stop. You are constantly going into these ancient texts and trying to insert modern day racial polemics
It's the same as Doug's race concept, the two part paradigm that all people fall into the category of either" White" cold adapted people or "Black" tropical people
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
But skin exists, it's very important. Skin is biological. You guys are trying to say skin doesn't exist, F Swenet
calm down Doug, we all know that skin exists and skin color is the most important thing in life but there are numerous shades of it not just two-as you have been brainwashed to believe
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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There is no agreement. People have different views in regards to what you're asking.
I was certain you would have had an answer.
Anyways I personally intepreated the results by DNAtribes as Tut's dynasty NOT LITERALLY being from South Africa, West Africa or Great Lake regions.
But instead the results representing the ancestors of the people who livein those three regions, those ancestors who would have lived in the Green Sahara and would have been "North Africans" or better yet "Saharans". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkZB5j5Eqm8
@5:00
Again that's how I personally interpeted the results. Many laymen literally think Tut's dynasty was from South Africa and scream "buh! buh! Da ancient GYPTIANS werent BANTUS!!!!" When thats not what the results are saying.
@Tukuler
Great post.
This is it. Ancient Egyptians share a past with other Africans in the Green Sahara. South Africans and other people are not direct descendant of Ancient Egyptians. They just share a common ancestors with them. The same can be said about the Ashanti and Zulu for example. Zulu are not descendants of the Ashanti but they share a common past. With Ancient Egyptians this common past is in the Green Sahara and before in (north) Eastern Africa.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This is it. Ancient Egyptians share a past with other Africans in the Green Sahara. South Africans and other people are not direct descendant of Ancient Egyptians. They just share a common ancestors with them. The same can be said about the Ashanti and Zulu for example. Zulu are not descendants of the Ashanti but they share a common past. With Ancient Egyptians this common past is in the Green Sahara and before in (north) Eastern Africa. [/QB]
Then the question is who are the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians? Possibly Sudanese Copts.
Sudan has a native Coptic minority, although many Copts in Sudan are descended from more recent Coptic immigrants from Egypt. Copts in Sudan live mostly in northern cities, including Al Obeid, Atbara, Dongola, Khartoum, Omdurman, Port Sudan, and Wad Medani. Copts say they numbered 400,000–500,000 in the past, but through emigration and – sometimes forced – conversion to Islam, their ranks are now thinner.
Copts began moving to Sudan in the sixth century CE to escape persecution in Egypt. Under Islamic rule which began in Egypt in the seventh century, they became subject to the code of dhimma, which offered them protection while according them second-class citizenship.
Initially this was an improvement over their vulnerable status under previous rulers, but, as the Islamization process became consolidated, strict regulations were imposed on the building of churches. Emigration from Egypt peaked in the early nineteenth century and the generally tolerant reception they received in Sudan was interrupted by a decade of persecution under Mahdist rule at the end that century. Many were obliged to relinquish their faith and adopted Islam, intermarrying with other Sudanese.
In 2005 Sudan’s Government of National Unity (GNU) named a Coptic Orthodox priest to a government position, although the ruling Islamist party’s continued dominance under the GNU provides ample reason to doubt its commitment to broader religious or ethnic representation.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Also look at how DNA Tribes' North Africa and Horn regions are hybridized with Eurasian groups who have lower MLI scores, and think about how that affects their own MLI scores when tested against the Pharaohs.
Then come back and let me know what YOU think based on your own investigation.
What some here do is conveniently take the MLI scores of Sub-Saharan Africans with known Egyptian-like or at least Eastern Sahara genetic influences and who were mostly out of reach of recent Eurasian admixture and compare their MLI scores to the MLI scores of groups in North Africa and other regions that are hybridized today. SMH.
The last paragraph is something I always had a hunch about. Especially the bolded.
WHat I think is that MODERN "hybrized" North Africans(who have significant "western Eurasian admixture") shouldn't be used as a representation region for an ancient population like the Ancient Egyptians and then compare it to modern Sub Saharan Africans. Obviously DNAtribes grouping Horners and North Africans with outside Eurasians will lower the MLI scores for North Africans and Horners compared to "unmixed" SSA.
Now if they were to you "ancient" Saharan/Northeast African population or a specific Northeast population with not much recent Eurasian admixture then it would be a different story. The reason Horners and North Africans score lower is because they are using modern population. This is just my opinion, I obviously need to investigate more.
Anyways I did find this which I think confirms further what you're saying.
This is true and I had similar thought. Let's investigate a bit more.
In my opinion, the best way to analyse the DNA Tribes results is to see them as using software like structure and admixture. They probably used something similar imo, and we can see adxixture results in almost every genetic study lately.
Each of the population clusters like Horn Africa, Great Lakes, etc are like clusters with their own colors in the admixture software at a certain k (like k=16). Modern horn african people are made of this Horn Africa cluster (maybe about 60% by memory) and also made of other clusters from Eurasia (maybe about 35%). So the Horn African cluster is the indigenous African proportion of their ancestry since Horn Africans are very much admixed in modern times. Ancient Egyptians mummies tested have mostly the colored bar of the Southern, Great Lakes and Tropical West African clusters but they also have the Horn African colored bar (aka the indigenous African portion of Horn African populations ancestry) as well as some Eurasian colored bar to a lower degree.
For Ancient Egyptians it is clear, based on those (limited?) results, that they were indigenous Africans. They all match colors and populations clusters of African populations all over Africa not Europeans or West Asians which are present only in small degrees.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Then the question is who are the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians? Possibly Sudanese Copts.
The direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians are modern Egyptians. Modern Egyptians are made of Ancient Egyptians, Kushites, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Muslim Arabs, Ottoman, Mamluk, Banu Hilal people. Nowadays they mostly cluster with muslim Arab people (from Saudi Arabia, where Islam come from), so their Ancient Egyptian and Kushite cluster form only a small part of their ancestry. Culturally most modern Egyptians are related to the Muslim Arab world.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
You lost me here youngster. What are you showing me? I thought we were discussing DNATribes Tribescore vs MLI and the relation to Great Lakes and Horners.
What are you showing me in this chart?
link or reference?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: How long have Swenet /Kalonji have been posting here. You know he is a spinmaster.
You credit me with a lot of powers, gramps. Thanks, I guess.
But do let me know when you're going to address this without running away or copping out.
Edit: replaced with latest version.
Note that the alleles are color-coded using Hawass et al 2010. So the dark green cells stands for Amenhotep III, the pink ones for Yuya and the blue ones for Thuya.
Note that the Copt sample came out last whereas they came out with the most hits p/p before I had the chance to double check everything. I also used a better counting method.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
All you need to know is that the samples with more pharaonic alleles are listed from top to bottom. "Ave. hits per cap." is an expression of how often the combined alleles of the three Amarna matriarchs and patriarchs occur in that sample. Affinity to the pharaonic family is expressed as "hits per person". A 'hit' is one occurrence of one pharaonic allele in one of the comparative samples. Therefore, more hits = more affinity. Since the amount of hits is primarily driven by sample size (larger samples have more hits than smaller samples), you need to account for sample size. Hence, hits/cap.
Relevant links where I got the samples from were already posted. Search for them. I'm not going to reward poor reading comprehension or unwillingness to read my posts due to hubris. Especially not with the rampant strawman attacks.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You lost me here youngster. What are you showing me? I thought we were discussing DNATribes Tribescore vs MLI and the relation to Great Lakes and Horners.
What are you showing me in this chart?
link or reference?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: How long have Swenet /Kalonji have been posting here. You know he is a spinmaster.
You credit me with a lot of powers, gramps. Thanks, I guess.
But do let me know when you're going to address this without running away or copping out.
Note that the alleles are color-coded using Hawass et al 2010. So the dark green cells stands for Amenhotep III, the pink ones for Yuya and the blue ones for Thuya.
Note that the Copt sample came out last whereas they came out with the most hits p/p before I had the chance to double check everything. I also used a better counting method.
Apple's vs apples, what samples dataset are we looking at? I don't buy used cars .....from the corner lot.
Still not sure what you on about youngster
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
He's expanded the dataset with some unseen samples.
posted
This post doesn't directly relate to previous discussions in this thread, but it's still about the larger topic of ancient Egypt as it pertains to "Black African/Afro-Diasporan" identity.
I may have come around to agreeing that "black" isn't a useful term for any population in a bio-anthropological context. But I shouldn't lie, as an amateur artist, I still like mixing Egyptian influences with those from elsewhere in Africa as well as the African Diaspora. Sometimes, when I'm in a shits-and-giggles mood, I like to throw recognizable aspects of African-American culture into an AE context. Examples have included hip-hop, twerking, finger-snapping, and distaste for Eurasians molesting their hair, among others.
I am fully aware the dynastic AE ancestry in Diasporans isn't as significant as that from West or Central Africa, and that Africa has never been a culturally homogeneous continent either. Certainly I don't assume every "Black" person I see has the mannerisms of an archetypical African-American; I would recall such an assumption stereotypical and ignorant at best. But it does seem to me that a large proportion of Black African-descended people, regardless of their specific ancestral population substructure, do see the AEs as a prestigious part of the larger "Pan-African" club, and as far as I can tell they mostly find my portrayals cute or humorous rather than offensive. Plus I like being provocative and bucking the larger trend of conflating AE culture with Arabs or Mesopotamians.
But given how Pan-Africanism clashes with the complex realities of biological anthropology as elaborated here, this kind of art is starting to feel like a guilty pleasure.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: "Pharaonic alleles" ? ?
Apple's vs apples, what samples dataset are we looking at? I don't buy used cars .....from the corner lot.
Still not sure what you on about youngster
Xyyman. You call ME a spin doctor?
Stop the 'confused' act, bro. YOU said I was "spinning" DNA Tribes and you refused to address any of my points, forcing me to produce independent data. You're now asking me what this independent data has to do with it?
I posted my own analysis to demonstrate that I'm not spinning anything. My results demonstrate that select samples in North Africa, even as mixed as they are, have pharaonic allele frequencies that rival those in southern and southeast Africa. I bet that with ancient Nubian and Saharan genetic material included, MLI scores would go through the roof.
*YOU are hiding behind the fact that DNA Tribes has POOLED their samples into regions. Naturally, when you pool modern Egyptian and Nubian samples with with decent STR profile affinity to the AE with poorer scoring Maghrebi, Levantine or even some other Nile Valley samples, you're going to get DNA Tribes' results which seemingly suggest that the modern day Nile Valley is light years behind DNA Tribes' Great Lakes and South African regions in terms of Egyptian affinity.
*YOU are hiding behind the fact that DNA Tribes' pooled North Africa region is hybridized today, that DNA Tribes' other African regions have ancient Egyptian ancestry and that the MLI scores are going to push other pooled African regions to the forefront because of this.
*YOU are running away from the fact that DNA Tribes' TribeScores see right through your messy interpretation of DNA Tribes. You've been running from this since 2014. The TribeScore figures show that the STR profiles of Ramses III and Pentawer are not as "typically" South African as they are "typically" Sudan-Horn. Just the mere observation that a particular genetic material occurs more somewhere than elsewhere, doesn't prove that it's the native ancestry in that region.
Who is spinning and playing sneaky?
You can drop the see-through 'confused' act and prove me wrong. Stop wasting time. You've already been running since 2014. Either put up or shut up:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm reluctant to post my results because I haven't double checked everything. I already rushed things yesterday and then had to go back and correct it. But interested parties can check for themselves. This is the page with popaffiliator's downloadable genotype data:
posted
"Spin"? No, you're just terribly incompetent. It's just embarrassing at this point. You been getting thrashed by every publication on this topic since the DNA Tribes results came out in 2012.
Cluster A (green) is frequent in EA, mostly in Ethiopia, and in CA. Interestingly, one Yemenite and two Egyptian populations are included in this cluster. Cluster B (black) occupies a relatively tighter area, spanning from Tanzania to Southern Ethiopia. From a linguistic point of view, cluster B includes non-AA speakers (namely Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo), as well as AACushitic and Omotic speakers. Cluster C (blue) collects populations from NA and the Levant. From a linguistic point of view, these populations are affiliated to AA-Semitic and AA-Berber families. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22212/abstract
^Much of North Africa clusters with Eurasia (blue), while some modern day Nile Valley samples still cluster with samples in Sudan, Chadic speaking groups in the Sahel and Cushitic and Ethio-Semitic speaking groups in the Horn (green). Bantu speaking groups from the Great Lakes region are thoroughly mixed with East African groups; they don't even look recognizably West African in their overall mtDNA profiles and PCA picks up on that (their mtDNAs group with Nilo-Saharan, Omotic and South Cushitic speakers).
If this North Africa region was pooled, the Egyptian samples which cluster with groups to the south would get lost in the pooled North Africa region. Is that the unfair picture you sneaky loons want to tell me I should take as-is and literal? And then you tell ME that I'm "spinning"?
Just admit it, Xyyman. You never had a point to begin with. The entire anthro-blogosphere is laughing at you for trying to lie to yourself and the public. Other than your yes-men, who do you think you're kidding, Xyyman?
Let's see if you can bring yourself to let the truth flow from your lips. I want to see you admit it.
Who do the do above Great Lakes Bantu speaking groups (e.g. Nairobi, Hutu, Kikiyu) cluster with in their mtDNA profile? Where did they get their L3f, L3a, L3c, L3h, L4, L5, L0 etc. contributions from? And then explain to me how such contributions don't ultimately lead back to Nile Valley and other regions you try to write off as having low MLI scores.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Ok. I got you now. But the fact of the matter is I explained DNATribes MLI vs Tribescore and based upon THEIR dataset Great Lakes, Southern Africans and West Africans have closer affinity than Horners and Amazigh. End of Story.
If you are challenging their dataset computation that is a different discussion. But based on what DNATribes presented, YES, SSA are closer to AEians than Horners.
Again you moved the target, YOU were saying Horners are closer BASED upon the charts(Tribescore numbers) DNATribes presented and YOU WERE WRONG.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [Q]
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [q] "Pharaonic alleles" ? ?
Apple's vs apples, what samples dataset are we looking at? I don't buy used cars .....from the corner lot.
Still not sure what you on about youngster [/q][/]Xyyman. You call []ME[] a spin doctor?
. You're now asking me what this independent data has to do with it?
My results demonstrate that []select[/] samples in North Africa, even as mixed as they are, have pharaonic allele frequencies that rival those in southern and southeast Africa. ****I bet that with ancient Nubian and Saharan genetic material included, MLI scores would go through the roof.***(AGREED AND POSSIBLE)
*YOU are hiding behind the fact that DNA Tribes has POOLED their samples into regions. Naturally, when you pool modern Egyptian and Nubian samples with with decent STR profile affinity to the AE with poorer scoring Maghrebi, Levantine or even some other Nile Valley samples, you're going to get DNA Tribes' results which seemingly suggest that the modern day Nile Valley is light years behind DNA Tribes' Great Lakes and South African regions in terms of Egyptian affinity.
*YOU are hiding behind the fact that DNA Tribes' pooled North Africa region is hybridized today, that DNA Tribes' other African regions have ancient Egyptian ancestry and that the MLI scores are going to push other pooled African regions to the forefront because of this.
*YOU are running away from the fact that DNA Tribes' TribeScores see right through your messy interpretation of DNA Tribes. You've been running from this since 2014. The TribeScore figures show that the STR profiles of Ramses III and Pentawer are not as "typically" South African as they are "typically" Sudan-Horn. Just the mere observation that a particular genetic material occurs more somewhere than elsewhere, doesn't prove that it's the native ancestry in that region.
Who is spinning and playing sneaky?
You can drop the see-through 'confused' act and prove me wrong. Stop wasting time. You've already been running since 2014. Either put up or shut up:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: ****I'm reluctant to post my results *****(SPIN) because I haven't double checked everything. I already rushed things yesterday and then had to go back and correct it. But interested parties can check for themselves. This is the page with popaffiliator's downloadable genotype data:
posted
So you have given up on the Tribescore interpretation argument and moved on to arguing that DNAtribes mixed and matched sampleset thereby skewing the results. OK. That is quite possible. But you were wrong with your Tribescore argument. Now you have gone back to the drawing board to disassemble DNATribes grouping of population.
You need to focus. Sign of a "scatter brain"
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I bet that with ancient Nubian and Saharan genetic material included, MLI scores would go through the roof.
Ok. I got you now.
I've said it all along. And you know I said that all along, because you tried to tell me I was wrong for introducing ancient Nubian aDNA to settle the score, because it wasn't specifically ancient Egyptian.
Don't try to act like it wasn't your claim all along that ancient Egyptians WERE like the Luhya genetically and that the Luhya would cluster with the Amarna family, ***to the exclusion of ancient Nubians***. You tried to peddle the fairytale that you could make the ancient Egyptians Luhya-like and somehow make the Nubians only distantly related, even though they've been neighbors to the AE since time immemorial. Really, gramps? You would really stoop that low?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If you are challenging their dataset that is a different discussion.
Stop introducing confusion. The popaffiliator samples I used are in DNA tribes' database. Guess in who else database they are? That's right: DNAconsultant.com. And I don't think I have to remind you of what they say about the frequency and distribution of 2/3 Amarna alleles (or "rare genes" as they call them) in the Nile Valley and the Horn. As you very well know (we've been over this many times), they support my analysis.
Akhenaten received it from his mother, Queen Tiye. Today, it is the gene type carried by a majority (52%) of the Copts living in the Pre-dynastic site of Adaima near Thebes or Luxor and the Valley of the Kings on the Nile River in Upper (southern) Egypt. http://dnaconsultants.com/akhenaten-gene
Thuya passed it to her grandson Akhenaten and great-grandson Tutankhamun, among others, as documented in a forensic study of the Amarna mummies by Zahi Hawass, head of the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Cairo, in 2010. Today, its highest incidence is in Somalians at nearly 50%. It is found in 40% of Muslim Egyptians. http://dnaconsultants.com/thuya-gene
Of course, this doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the individual Amarna alleles, but that's irrelevant. As a whole, the Amarna allele mix is more frequent (has more hits) in some (not all) Nile Valley and nearby samples if you don't POOL the samples.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Where are the SAME 8 STRs for the Horners, Copts etc?
At this point, I know for a fact that this is simply your poor reading comprehension talking. I've posted the webpage with the samples TWICE, including in the post you just replied to without having a clue as to what I actually said.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
You have a muss-mosh of ideas going on in that little head of yours. I now realize you still don't get it.
I never said AEians are Luyha-like. I and Henn has stated that the Luyha are ancestral to the Amazigh. Different discussion to what we are talking about here.
Again - You still don't understand what DNAconsultants are doing vs DNATribes.
DNAtribes took the holistic(ALL inclusive approach), while DNAConsultants parse out the STRs applying labels.
That is why DNATribes came up with a Tribescore and and MLI showing Amarnas cluster with SSA. With only specific(single) STRs Amarnas will cluster with other populations eg Copts and even the DISTANT Native Americans.
That does not mean the Amarnas are Native American or Copts. lol! Since ALL world populations carry the same STRs. But when the 8 STRs are combined AEians cluster with SSA.
You are wasting my time...bro.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Named for the pharaoh who attempted to convert Egypt to monotheism, this autosomal ancestry marker like most of the Amarna family group’s DNA is CLEARLY African in origin - See more at: http://dnaconsultants.com/akhenaten-gene#sthash.Bn9pu1rF.dpuf
====
In other words DNAconsultants AND DNATribes agree on the samething.
So the "Proprietary Software" nonsense that Sage mouthing off is nonsensical. Again shows most here don't get it.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
For the record from DNAconsultants. They too like DNATRibes are that Africans civilized that world.
===
Take the Thuya Gene, for instance. Like most of the other Rare Genes from History, it has an African origin in deep time. But it experienced its greatest expansion in ancient Egypt, where it was carried by the queens of Upper and Lower Egypt and High Priestesses of the temples. It was reported in the profile of Queen Thuya's mummy, and we can see that she passed it to her children, grandchildren and descendants. King Tut was a great-grandson and has it, according to the new forensic evidence.
Today, as many as one-fourth of all people on earth would test positive for the Thuya Gene. It is twice as common in Somalia as outside Africa and is found in 40% of Muslim Egyptians.
That's not so rare after all, but unsurprising. Egyptian civilization lasted for three thousand years and sowed the seed of its peoples and ideas throughout the world. We can imagine that Autosomal Thuya started out in East Africa about 100,000 years ago, and that her descendants were prominent in the first out-of-Africa group as well as in the Middle Easterners who helped spread agriculture, animal husbandry, religion and settled town life to Europe.
The spirit of Thuya lives on in 27% of Jews who have been tested in academic studies. Extrapolating to world population figures, that's nearly 400,000 people, about evenly divided between the United States and Israel - See more at:
You are wasting my time.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Xyyman: I never said AEians are Luyha-like. I and Henn has stated that the Luyha are ancestral to the Amazigh
Same difference, gramps. The Luhya are in DNA Tribes' pooled Great Lakes sample. Are you saying that it wasn't/isn't your position that the AE were Great Lakes and that the Nubians I cited were only distantly related to both?
quote:Originally posted by Xyyman: DNAtribes took the holistic(ALL inclusive approach), while DNAConsultants parse out the STRs applying labels.
Stop changing the subject and lecturing me on captain obvious non-issues. Answer the issue. How did you come to the conclusion that it's a database issue? DNA Tribes has the same African samples that popaffiliator has.
quote:Originally posted by Xyyman: You are wasting my time.
Then put your "time" to good use by proving that the Amarna alleles occur more in the Ovamba and Tanzanian sample than in the Egyptian samples.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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No one cares about opinions. Produce evidence for your claims. Apparently I have to hold your hand and walk you through the samples. If that's what it takes for you to stop polluting this thread with your fabrications, so be it.
And PROVE that the pharaonic alleles occur more in the above **unpooled** Sub-Saharan African samples than in the above **unpooled** northeast African samples. Don't even try to come back with no sneaky pooled North African vs pooled SSA sample analysis. When you're done, report your results back here so everyone can verify your results.
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: This post doesn't directly relate to previous discussions in this thread, but it's still about the larger topic of ancient Egypt as it pertains to "Black African/Afro-Diasporan" identity.
I may have come around to agreeing that "black" isn't a useful term for any population in a bio-anthropological context. But I shouldn't lie, as an amateur artist, I still like mixing Egyptian influences with those from elsewhere in Africa as well as the African Diaspora. Sometimes, when I'm in a shits-and-giggles mood, I like to throw recognizable aspects of African-American culture into an AE context. Examples have included hip-hop, twerking, finger-snapping, and distaste for Eurasians molesting their hair, among others.
I am fully aware the dynastic AE ancestry in Diasporans isn't as significant as that from West or Central Africa, and that Africa has never been a culturally homogeneous continent either. Certainly I don't assume every "Black" person I see has the mannerisms of an archetypical African-American; I would recall such an assumption stereotypical and ignorant at best. But it does seem to me that a large proportion of Black African-descended people, regardless of their specific ancestral population substructure, do see the AEs as a prestigious part of the larger "Pan-African" club, and as far as I can tell they mostly find my portrayals cute or humorous rather than offensive. Plus I like being provocative and bucking the larger trend of conflating AE culture with Arabs or Mesopotamians.
But given how Pan-Africanism clashes with the complex realities of biological anthropology as elaborated here, this kind of art is starting to feel like a guilty pleasure.
I don't understand your point. What bio-anthropological context omits skin color and the fact that almost all indigenous Africans are tropically adapted black people. It is one thing to say that "black" has been muddied by 400 years of racism and totally another to say that "black skin" isn't a valid bio-anthropological concept IN AFRICA. One is a semantic issue the other is nonsense. It implies that bio-antrhopologically the AE somehow fall outside the range of features, including skin color found throughout the rest of Africa which is a contradiction in terms. If the point is that bio-anthropologically the AE were well within the range of biological features found across other African populations then that would also assume this includes skin color which is also biological in nature.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ↑ That is EXACTLY what it all boils down to: made-made RULES.
When I say that the AE weren't black according to a particular tradition, some knuckleheads think I'm questioning the Africanity of the AE.
If many brown and dark brown skinned North Africans fall outside of the definition of 'black' of a particular observer, and I acknowledge that such a definition exists (e.g. Ptolemy who only considered the tribes around Meroe "pure Aethiopians" and "true blacks"), that doesn't mean that I'm co-signing that tradition.
SMH. These are subjective rules, and yes, if someone uses 'black' in reference to any other skin tone than what visually appears to be jet-black skin, their own definition of 'black', whatever it is, is based on subjective rules. And yes, Ptolemy's definition of who has 'black' skin is more defensible than other definitions of who has 'black' skin, including the al Jahiz one I've subscribed to in the past.
If you're going to argue that Ptolemy is wrong for applying brown to brown-skinned Egyptians and lower Nubians and black to those further south who had jet-black skin, you're chemically imbalanced and I don't need to be talking to you.
DUMB ASS I AM SAYING THEY WERE THE SAME COMPLEXION AS SUDANESE WHO NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM CALLING BLACK. NOBODY GOES TO SUDAN AND CLAIMS ONLY SOME SUDANESE LIKE THE DINKA AND NEUER ARE BLACK WHILE THE REST ARENT, EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE VARIOUS SHADES OF BROWN IN SUDAN JUST LIKE THERE ARE VARIOUS SHADES OF BROWN THROUGHOUT ALL OF AFRICA. EGYPT WAS NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER AFRICAN POPULATION STUPID. THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE IN COMPLEXION IS MY POINT.
STOP TALKING RETARDED.
WHEN I SAY BLACK I MEAN BLACK.
YOU ARE BEING REFUCKINGTARDED.
NOBODY IS GOING TO SIT HERE AND TRY TO COME UP WITH HUNDREDS OF DIFFERENT NAMES FOR INDIVIDUAL SHADES OF BROWN FOUND ACROSS ALL OF AFRICA. THAT IS ABSURD. BLACK IS PERFECTLY SUFFICIENT AS A RFEFERENCE TO TROPICALLY ADAPTED BLACK POPULATIONS IN AFRICA. AND THAT IS HOW THE WORD IS DEFINED IN THE DAM DICTIONARY AND HOW IT HAS BEEN USED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. AND THERE WAS NO "SPECIAL" SHADE OF BROWN CALLED "EGYPTIAN #22" THAT WAS UNIQUE TO EGYPT. THEY WERE BLACK. PERIOD, WITH THE SAME KINDS OF FEATURES AND SKIN COLOR AS OTHER BLACK AFRICANS.
YOUR POINT IS STUPID.
I AM NOT FLIP FLOPPING YOU SIMPLY ARE DISGUSTING WITH YOUR B.S.
WHEN WHITE SCIENTISTS REJECT BLACK FOR AE THEY ARE REJECTING WHAT I JUST SAID, MEANING THEY REJECT THAT THE AE HAD A SKIN COLOR SIMILAR TO MOST AFRICANS AND SUDANESE. YOU SIMPLY ARE TALKING GARBAGE WHEN YOU KNOW BETTER.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: This post doesn't directly relate to previous discussions in this thread, but it's still about the larger topic of ancient Egypt as it pertains to "Black African/Afro-Diasporan" identity.
I may have come around to agreeing that "black" isn't a useful term for any population in a bio-anthropological context. But I shouldn't lie, as an amateur artist, I still like mixing Egyptian influences with those from elsewhere in Africa as well as the African Diaspora. Sometimes, when I'm in a shits-and-giggles mood, I like to throw recognizable aspects of African-American culture into an AE context. Examples have included hip-hop, twerking, finger-snapping, and distaste for Eurasians molesting their hair, among others.
I am fully aware the dynastic AE ancestry in Diasporans isn't as significant as that from West or Central Africa, and that Africa has never been a culturally homogeneous continent either. Certainly I don't assume every "Black" person I see has the mannerisms of an archetypical African-American; I would recall such an assumption stereotypical and ignorant at best. But it does seem to me that a large proportion of Black African-descended people, regardless of their specific ancestral population substructure, do see the AEs as a prestigious part of the larger "Pan-African" club, and as far as I can tell they mostly find my portrayals cute or humorous rather than offensive. Plus I like being provocative and bucking the larger trend of conflating AE culture with Arabs or Mesopotamians.
But given how Pan-Africanism clashes with the complex realities of biological anthropology as elaborated here, this kind of art is starting to feel like a guilty pleasure.
Its just that most serious Africanist who are African-American just want to see Ancient Egypt be part of African history like Rome and Greece are apart of European history. Some people exaggerate that most Africanist AA's "want to be Egyptians."
Good post by the way.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: This post doesn't directly relate to previous discussions in this thread, but it's still about the larger topic of ancient Egypt as it pertains to "Black African/Afro-Diasporan" identity.
I may have come around to agreeing that "black" isn't a useful term for any population in a bio-anthropological context. But I shouldn't lie, as an amateur artist, I still like mixing Egyptian influences with those from elsewhere in Africa as well as the African Diaspora. Sometimes, when I'm in a shits-and-giggles mood, I like to throw recognizable aspects of African-American culture into an AE context. Examples have included hip-hop, twerking, finger-snapping, and distaste for Eurasians molesting their hair, among others.
I am fully aware the dynastic AE ancestry in Diasporans isn't as significant as that from West or Central Africa, and that Africa has never been a culturally homogeneous continent either. Certainly I don't assume every "Black" person I see has the mannerisms of an archetypical African-American; I would recall such an assumption stereotypical and ignorant at best. But it does seem to me that a large proportion of Black African-descended people, regardless of their specific ancestral population substructure, do see the AEs as a prestigious part of the larger "Pan-African" club, and as far as I can tell they mostly find my portrayals cute or humorous rather than offensive. Plus I like being provocative and bucking the larger trend of conflating AE culture with Arabs or Mesopotamians.
But given how Pan-Africanism clashes with the complex realities of biological anthropology as elaborated here, this kind of art is starting to feel like a guilty pleasure.
Its just that most serious Africanist who are African-American just want to see Ancient Egypt be part of African history like Rome and Greece are apart of European history. Some people exaggerate that most Africanist AA's "want to be Egyptians."
Good post by the way.
No the problem is racism and some folks on this thread are playing this game of pretending that European science is objective about it but last I checked all the movies and reenactments about Egypt to this day still show them as WHITE EUROPEANS.
So here is the point. If you and your crew of 'objective scholars' was really doing such a great job on schooling everyone on how African AE was, then how come they still portray them as pure white Europeans? And where is this "objective science" that claims the AE were really brown, because I don't see it.
So I call it like I see it while some clowns like living in fantasy world.
And these clowns have the nerve to come here and show their azz and talk sh*t to people who know better.
Most filmmakers in Hollywood are laymen who never even read scientific anthropological date on the AE, so I can careless if they depict the Egyptians as pake skinned Europeans. Its up to us blacks in America to make our own film industry/media.
Edit: Heck I think I remember the film producer of Gods of Egypt saying he just made them "white" because he wasn't really sure what race the AE were...
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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