Over the years Diop and other researchers have identified linguistic evidence that ancient Egyptian and Black African languages are related. This suggest that speakers of these languages formerly lived together.
It has been pointed out that the ancestors of the Egyptians originally lived in the Sahara.
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).
This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.
If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.
Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.
The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.
A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.
Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.
Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.
DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.
Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
[quote]
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
The appearence of these ethnonyms in Egyptian suggest that African tribes now living in West Africans formerly lived in ancient Egypt in the nomes that made up this great empire.
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage.
It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I posted the data and folks bascially seem to be running from it Like This
Egyptsearch's whole game is cat and mouse:
1) Something like this gets posted (source: Keita 1992):
2) The majority pretends to not see it or understand the implications.
3) When the thread is no longer in sight, all of you sudden you see these bs threads pop up by the same people who were silent during the aforementioned rare moments of truth.
4) Repeat and rinse.
5) Be absolutely convinced that this site is a beacon of truth and that people from other message boards fear/respect Egyptsearch.
This repeat and rinse has gone on for so many years that you get these threads:
No disrespect to SonofRa but this is just a perfect example of the games that get played here. Compare Keita's classification results up top with the classification results listed in that thread. Is it really that different as far as the majority of crania that won't classify with many SSA groups? As a matter of fact, which craniofacial study on the face of the earth has ever said anything different? No actual craniofacial study. So what is the reference point people here have for being surprised about this? It's not even like they can point to a classification study that says different.
And you want to know what happens when certain variables are used? The classification results get even worse:
quote:The indications of exclusion, however, are much easier to interpret. For example, the likelihood that either the Giza or Naqada configuration could occur in West Africa, the Congo, or points south is vanishingly small-0.000 and 0.001.
—Brace et al 1993
But we've never seen that quote before, either, right? But don't worry, just sweep it under the rug and repeat and rinse. Create a thread a month later talking about Niger-Congo Egyptians. [/QB]
Interesting observations:
quote: The East Horn of Africa, however, is another situation entirely. Like much of the Arabian peninsula and the Sahara itself, it is very dry. Solar radiation is intense, and we would expect to find an increased amount of melanin in the skin of the long-term residents of the equatorial portion of that area. We would also expect them to display a degree of nasal elevation and elongation unlike that of the long-term residents at the same latitude but in the moist tropics to the west. This in fact is the case, as we can demonstrate with our own measurements. When the non-adaptive aspects of of craniofacial configuration are the basis for assessment, the Somalis cluster with Europeans before showing a tie with the people of West Africa or the Congo basin.
An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 19341,but that ex- planation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none …
—Brace et al 1993
Charlie_Bass contacted Brace and posted this in 31 August 2005:
quote: I recently e-mailed Dr. Brace about the biological affinities of East Africans, particularly peoples of the Upper Nile and Horn and this is his reply. I will forward the e-mail to Ausar to authenticate it. Here is is reply:
"As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures and much the result of in situ circumstances. The elongation of the nose is clearly a climate-induced phenomenon and takes a long time to manifest itself. The same thing is true for the reduction in tooth size which markedly distinguishes those people form the Niger-Congo people. One has to suggest that Vavilov's identification of that as one of the early areas of crop domestication would have meant that food preparation techniques reducing the pressures for mastication had been operating there for a long time, and tooth size reduction in situ would be one of the expected consequences.
1 - YES you need samples from Sudan. We are talking about specific geographical locations. Those "Nubians" have ALWAYS been in Egypt, they are not recent migrants from Sudan....Therefore they are NOT Sudanese. Just as Ethiopian Somali are NOT recent migrants from Somalia and have a different Y-chromosome Profile than Somali in Somalia. OR....maybe you going the Euroclown route by saying the Black people in Egypt (Nubians) are new comers from the South and are not representative of ancient diversity?
The area you are speaking of where you start talking about linguistics, culture, and anthropology is related to the Central Sudan and Eastern Sahara. "Nubians" dont even come into play, most of the ancient folks have affinity with modern Nilotics and the NUBA.....actual Niger-Congo speakers.
2 - Yes, i know much about those Ethnic groups, please explain their paucity of E-M2....in ALL Native Sudanese groups.
3 - No Retard. Haplogroup E is not the "Pn2 Clade". This is where you are just repeating stuff and dont really know what you are talking about. Haplogroup E is E-M96....just plain underived E*, Pn2 = E1b1. IF you think Haplogroup E = Pn2 then you DISREGARD all Africans carrying E1a and E2 lineages DUMMY. They are Haplogroup E carriers and NOT pn2 carriers DUMMY. DUMMY YOU ARE E2b1............YOU are a Haplogroup E carrier and NOT a Pn2 carrier. You are so lost regarding BASIC DATA you dont even know who YOU ARE DUMMY! Here is the latest tree .
4 - How am i arguing from a racialized position when YOU are basing your argument on physical features (Race)...and I am talking about long term genetic divergence (Science). You big DUMMY!Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Some additional info for @Akachi and @beyoku.
quote: Genetics and Bantu speakers
The PN2/M2 biallelic lineage in part maps to the distribution of the family, as does haplotype IV of the TaqI49a,f RFLP system, which in Africa and adjacent regions apparently marks the same clade (see al-Zahery et al. 2003, Underhhill personal communication). The spread of this family is frequently identified with the distribution of these variants in nearly a causal fashion. In other words M2 is said to be a marker of the Bantu expansion, which some earlier writers even thought had gone into West Africa (see e.g. Guthrie 1962).
However, haplotype IV/ M2 is found in very high frequencies in Africa west of the Cameroons from Nigeria to Atlantic, reaching a frequency of ~80% in a sample from Senegal. Just as interesting is its reported frequency in one study of Egypt (27%) and Nubia (39%) (Lucotte and Mercier 2003). There are no Bantu speakers in these regions and no evidence that they were ever there. Hence the “Bantu expansion”, a problematic concept especially as often conceived, in any case cannot be used to explain their presence. Furthermore, the Bantu expansion should not be conceived as having been a mass movement of a single people, analogous to an mfecane, or the migration of the Banu Hilal.
Archaeology and historical linguistics help explore possible credible explanations. The M2/ haplotype IV marker is found at great frequencies in Niger-Congo speakers in general. It is likely that M2 existed in the early ancestral family—proto-Niger Congo—and got distributed into all of its branches as the family differentiated through space and time. This explanation does not work for Egypt and Nubia since languages spoken there belong to other families. However, archaeological data indicate a late pleistocene recolonization of the eastern Sahara after a probable population hiatus between 50,000 to 15,000 years ago (Wendorf and Schild 2001). The peoples involved can be expected to have been highly diverse. This marker may have entered the Nile Valley with mid-Holocene population Saharan migrations into the Nile Valley (Hassan 1988), which contributed to the peopling of the valley.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: [QB] @Akachi1 - YES you need samples from Sudan. We are talking about specific geographical locations. Those "Nubians" have ALWAYS been in Egypt, they are not recent migrants from Sudan....Therefore they are NOT Sudanese.
Beyoku that's absolute technical bullshit. The sample from that study came from Abu Simbel on the Sudan-Egypt border.
We are dealing with the distinct political entity to the south of Kemet along the MODERN Egyptian-Sudanese border, and it's early occupation of Niger-Congo speakers. Upper Kemet-Lower-Middle Nubia were at the periods prior to the 6th century B.C.E. dominated by Niger-Congo speaking populations as indicated by the characteristic shared "Negroid" traits from Kerma (Middle Sudan) to Upper Kemet.
" Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. -- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404."
Beyoku explain why Negroid traits do not dominate Southern Egypt to Middle Sudan today as this study indicates (consistent with others) they did in ancient times prior to the Late Period. Beyoku explain who these Negroid were and why the modern Ethiopic populations do not share these physical features.
After that Niger-Congo migration into the interior of Africa the area populations were then characterized by a predominance of Ethiopic Africans and Nilotics who remained in the area in their own right.
The modern Ethiopic populations of Lower Nubia and the adjacent Upper Egypt still retain evidence of heavy interaction with "Negroid" populations that once occupied the region during ancient times. I'm not going to entertain that disingenuous technical modern European created border argument with you...
quote: "Nubians" dont even come into play, most of the ancient folks have affinity with modern Nilotics and the NUBA.....actual Niger-Congo speakers.
We know this about Middle and Upper Nubians, so you have no point here.
quote: 2 - Yes, i know much about those Ethnic groups, please explain their paucity of E-M2....in ALL Native Sudanese groups.
Well that...is not necessary for me to prove my point, so miss me with that bs request.
quote: 3 - No Retard. Haplogroup E is not the "Pn2 Clade". This is where you are just repeating stuff and dont really know what you are talking about.
You got your ass handed to you, so you have resort to word semantics. Yeah, not very high brow of you.
quote: 4 - How am i arguing from a racialized position when YOU are basing your argument on physical features (Race)
The very fact that you started this thread with the insinuation that the genetic data that you present in some way discerns what Afrocentrics have been (as you and beige daddy Ellias were celebrating over on FDB) saying and have proven, means that your whole intention in interpreting this genetic data is racial, and in the same manner as Caucasoid supremacist who you chum around.
Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014
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posted
This "Akachi" clown is the reason why people in the bio-anthropology coumminity laugh at us on the "African side" and is the reason why people will laugh off your argument even IF you try to argue that the AE had SSA origins(not that I myself am arguing it) and even if your argument is well put together.
People like him are the reason people immediately laugh off a "black Egypt" and why people think the Afrocentric community is full of radicals who claim everyone was black.
It only takes one moron to mess up the money for everyone else. And I seen this moron on MANY other forums spamming his nonsense. Also we cant say Akachi is a representation of ES. Because I was lurking ES Reloaded before and he was spamming his nonsense there. Thankfully the posters over there were not taking his arguments seriously.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: This "Akachi" clown is the reason why people in the bio-anthropology coumminity laugh at us on the "African side" and is the reason why people will laugh off your argument even IF you try to argue that the AE had SSA origins(not that I myself am arguing it) and even if your argument is well put together.
People like him are the reason people immediately laugh off a "black Egypt" and why people think the Afrocentric community is full of radicals who claim everyone was black.
It only takes one moron to mess up the money for everyone else. And I seen this moron on MANY other forums spamming his nonsense.
Your uncle tom ass is actually there sitting bitching about not getting Caucasian approval for your theories. Y'all would be the integrationalist back in the 1960's let's understand that. Your interest is not with the betterment of your people, but rather to present an image of your people that the dominant society will accept for YOUR ego's sake. That's even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not Caucasian.
I don't give a damn about your inferiority complex, nor do I care about you whores cringing whenever see a melaninated with balls.
quote: Also we cant say Akachi is a representation of ES. Because I was lurking ES Reloaded before and he was spamming his nonsense there. Thankfully the posters over there were not taking his arguments seriously.
Bitch...my threads are stickered to the general discussion and Egyptology page. The narrative threads that I created are BY FAR the most viewed and participated threads on that website. My threads actually get likes on OP, and my inbox is full of thank you's and request to spread my information to other websites (which is exhausting and I rarely do now).
Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I will give ES some credit though, it's amusing to see the thrashing and mocking Akachi has earned for spamming his black supremacist BS here.
Honestly I believe the places where topics like this can be discussed without people going crazy are always going to be few and far between. The very subject of population genetics and history in Africa, whether we like it or not, is too entangled with racial politics for most people to come into these conversations without a deeply invested bias one way or another. I don't say this to excuse the shenanigans of fools like Akachi, Ausar, Clyde, etc. But unfortunately this is the sort of topic that tends to attract fools with agendas the way carrion attracts flies.
The only place I can recall off the top of my head where topics like this can be discussed without all the pages of nonsense is the "Nile Valley Studies" FB group we're supposed to be running. But somehow posters here (myself included, to be fair) seem to gravitate towards the drama of this moderator-deprived forum instead.
What Nile Valley Studies group??
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
Who are the native tribes in the Sudan? A couple of years ago I tested a theory that I could go into any country in Africa and find at least one tribe that that traces their history to the Nile Valley. It was generally true. There were a few exceptions. I was surprised that Sudan was more difficult. It is the Nile Valley. I expected it to be oozing tribes who's history was a simple we are native. Squat was enough to include them. Yet in many cases I either did not find squat or I found outside origins. You have tribes like the Nuer who's history is 'unknown' in the mainstream and almost all of the Arab tribes traced their origins to Arabia. I considered religious bias. I know that there are people who wan't to be abrahamic and even some mixed up monkey-fools who want to be hamitic. Wit that in consideration its easier to find non-muslims or recent converts who trace their history to Asia like the Tikar stopping at Sudan along the way than it is to find black arab tribes that are proud natives of the Sudan. I may be mistaken so I'll ask again. What Sudanese tribes are firm natives?
Also what is up with Keita? In 2015 he was still trying to work through a Bantu migration frame. Free your mind S.O.Y.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: This "Akachi" clown is the reason why people in the bio-anthropology coumminity laugh at us on the "African side" and is the reason why people will laugh off your argument even IF you try to argue that the AE had SSA origins(not that I myself am arguing it) and even if your argument is well put together.
People like him are the reason people immediately laugh off a "black Egypt" and why people think the Afrocentric community is full of radicals who claim everyone was black.
It only takes one moron to mess up the money for everyone else. And I seen this moron on MANY other forums spamming his nonsense. Also we cant say Akachi is a representation of ES. Because I was lurking ES Reloaded before and he was spamming his nonsense there. Thankfully the posters over there were not taking his arguments seriously.
Your uncle tom ass is actually there sitting bitching about not getting Caucasian approval for your theories. Y'all would be the integrationalist back in the 1960's let's understand that. Your interest is not with the betterment of your people, but rather to present an image of your people that the dominant society will accept for YOUR ego's sake. That's even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not Caucasian.
I don't give a damn about your inferiority complex, nor do I care about you whores cringing whenever see a melaninated with balls.
Why are you here? If ES' Egyptology portion is just Uncle Toms that spew the white man's science that you don't trust no way, no how why are you even conversating instead of spending your time with like minded "woke" people? You don't need approval from us, and have a problem with a lot of the data being reviewed. IDK why you're wasting your time here.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: This "Akachi" clown is the reason why people in the bio-anthropology coumminity laugh at us on the "African side" and is the reason why people will laugh off your argument even IF you try to argue that the AE had SSA origins(not that I myself am arguing it) and even if your argument is well put together.
People like him are the reason people immediately laugh off a "black Egypt" and why people think the Afrocentric community is full of radicals who claim everyone was black.
It only takes one moron to mess up the money for everyone else. And I seen this moron on MANY other forums spamming his nonsense. Also we cant say Akachi is a representation of ES. Because I was lurking ES Reloaded before and he was spamming his nonsense there. Thankfully the posters over there were not taking his arguments seriously.
Your uncle tom ass is actually there sitting bitching about not getting Caucasian approval for your theories. Y'all would be the integrationalist back in the 1960's let's understand that. Your interest is not with the betterment of your people, but rather to present an image of your people that the dominant society will accept for YOUR ego's sake. That's even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not Caucasian.
I don't give a damn about your inferiority complex, nor do I care about you whores cringing whenever see a melaninated with balls.
Why are you here? If ES' Egyptology portion is just Uncle Toms that spew the white man's science that you don't trust no way, no how why are you even conversating instead of spending your time with like minded "woke" people? You don't need approval from us, and have a problem with a lot of the data being reviewed. IDK why you're wasting your time here.
Through y'all's bitchassness and compliance with their BULLSHIT...y'all have made a bed... for Caucasians supremacist to ooz in and fester the place.
Notice how all of the Caucasian supremacist shut the **** up when I start...now I actually like to watch them squirm to hot truth. None the less its note worthy that they are gone!
Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Who are the native tribes in the Sudan? A couple of years ago I tested a theory that I could go into any country in Africa and find at least one tribe that that traces their history to the Nile Valley. It was generally true. There were a few exceptions. I was surprised that Sudan was more difficult. It is the Nile Valley. I expected it to be oozing tribes who's history was a simple we are native. Squat was enough to include them. Yet in many cases I either did not find squat or I found outside origins. You have tribes like the Nuer who's history is 'unknown' in the mainstream and almost all of the Arab tribes traced their origins to Arabia. I considered religious bias. I know that there are people who wan't to be abrahamic and even some mixed up monkey-fools who want to be hamitic. Wit that in consideration its easier to find non-muslims or recent converts who trace their history to Asia like the Tikar stopping at Sudan along the way than it is to find black arab tribes that are proud natives of the Sudan. I may be mistaken so I'll ask again. What Sudanese tribes are firm natives?
Also what is up with Keita? In 2015 he was still trying to work through a Bantu migration frame. Free your mind S.O.Y.
This is interesting, I'd like to see Sudaniyas response to this.
Also no argument that has ground and hasn't been falsified by contemporary studies should be shitted on. When Akachi brings up something, I consider it when even Cass/ brings up something, I consider it. If it doesn't add up I won't promote it, If it's harmfully inaccurate I confront... (most of the times ....well, some of the times.) If it's transparently ridiculous, I let it rock.
With that being said, I as a third party elect to recommend that Akachi not change or leave but tone down the obsessive behavior towards white people, as a different perspective even if its from a SuperAfricentric Übermensch can be insightful. However what's between Beyoku & Akachi is between Beyoku and Akachi.
No need to censor him in my eyes....No body was fVcking with the OP anyways.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Who are the native tribes in the Sudan? A couple of years ago I tested a theory that I could go into any country in Africa and find at least one tribe that that traces their history to the Nile Valley. It was generally true. There were a few exceptions. I was surprised that Sudan was more difficult. It is the Nile Valley. I expected it to be oozing tribes who's history was a simple we are native. Squat was enough to include them. Yet in many cases I either did not find squat or I found outside origins. You have tribes like the Nuer who's history is 'unknown' in the mainstream and almost all of the Arab tribes traced their origins to Arabia. I considered religious bias. I know that there are people who wan't to be abrahamic and even some mixed up monkey-fools who want to be hamitic. Wit that in consideration its easier to find non-muslims or recent converts who trace their history to Asia like the Tikar stopping at Sudan along the way than it is to find black arab tribes that are proud natives of the Sudan. I may be mistaken so I'll ask again. What Sudanese tribes are firm natives?
Also what is up with Keita? In 2015 he was still trying to work through a Bantu migration frame. Free your mind S.O.Y.
This is interesting, I'd like to see Sudaniyas response to this.
Also no argument that has ground and hasn't been falsified by contemporary studies should be shitted on. When Akachi brings up something, I consider it when even Cass/ brings up something, I consider it. If it doesn't add up I won't promote it, If it's harmfully inaccurate I confront... (most of the times ....well, some of the times.) If it's transparently ridiculous, I let it rock.
With that being said, I as a third party elect to recommend that Akachi not change or leave but tone down the obsessive behavior towards white people, as a different perspective even if its from a SuperAfricentric Übermensch can be insightful. However what's between Beyoku & Akachi is between Beyoku and Akachi.
No need to censor him in my eyes....No body was fVcking with the OP anyways.
The thing is Akachi's stuff like Cass has been addressed MANY times and refuted on many forums even the alternative ES forum known as ES reloaded here!
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@Akachi. If E-M2 is found in Egypt, But it is not at all found in Sudan, you are going to need E-M2 samples from Sudan to prove your point. Furthermore if you have multiple samples from Sudanese ethnic groups NONE of which contain E-M2........ how do you use E-M2 as a Sudanese signature when found among Egyptians?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Not to mention, modern day southern Egyptians are different from the ancient southern Egyptians in more ways than just increased Eurasian. Hence the Abusir mummies' near-lack of SSA ancestry by NK/TIP times (contrary to modern Egyptians) and the position of this modern Elephantine sample seemingly nowhere near (pre)dynastic samples: Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Who are the native tribes in the Sudan? A couple of years ago I tested a theory that I could go into any country in Africa and find at least one tribe that that traces their history to the Nile Valley. It was generally true. There were a few exceptions. I was surprised that Sudan was more difficult. It is the Nile Valley. I expected it to be oozing tribes who's history was a simple we are native. Squat was enough to include them. Yet in many cases I either did not find squat or I found outside origins. You have tribes like the Nuer who's history is 'unknown' in the mainstream and almost all of the Arab tribes traced their origins to Arabia. I considered religious bias. I know that there are people who wan't to be abrahamic and even some mixed up monkey-fools who want to be hamitic. Wit that in consideration its easier to find non-muslims or recent converts who trace their history to Asia like the Tikar stopping at Sudan along the way than it is to find black arab tribes that are proud natives of the Sudan. I may be mistaken so I'll ask again. What Sudanese tribes are firm natives?
Also what is up with Keita? In 2015 he was still trying to work through a Bantu migration frame. Free your mind S.O.Y.
This is interesting, I'd like to see Sudaniyas response to this.
Also no argument that has ground and hasn't been falsified by contemporary studies should be shitted on. When Akachi brings up something, I consider it when even Cass/ brings up something, I consider it. If it doesn't add up I won't promote it, If it's harmfully inaccurate I confront... (most of the times ....well, some of the times.) If it's transparently ridiculous, I let it rock.
With that being said, I as a third party elect to recommend that Akachi not change or leave but tone down the obsessive behavior towards white people, as a different perspective even if its from a SuperAfricentric Übermensch can be insightful. However what's between Beyoku & Akachi is between Beyoku and Akachi.
No need to censor him in my eyes....No body was fVcking with the OP anyways.
Of course there is no need for censorship. ES is democratic and always has been so. People have a right to their opinion. Cass spewed hatful crap for many years and people called for him to be banned, which I was against. Although Akachi has radical views, not all of what Akachi addresses is off. He certainly makes good points. And I agree it's between Akachi and Beyoku.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Who are the native tribes in the Sudan? A couple of years ago I tested a theory that I could go into any country in Africa and find at least one tribe that that traces their history to the Nile Valley. It was generally true. There were a few exceptions. I was surprised that Sudan was more difficult. It is the Nile Valley. I expected it to be oozing tribes who's history was a simple we are native. Squat was enough to include them. Yet in many cases I either did not find squat or I found outside origins. You have tribes like the Nuer who's history is 'unknown' in the mainstream and almost all of the Arab tribes traced their origins to Arabia. I considered religious bias. I know that there are people who wan't to be abrahamic and even some mixed up monkey-fools who want to be hamitic. Wit that in consideration its easier to find non-muslims or recent converts who trace their history to Asia like the Tikar stopping at Sudan along the way than it is to find black arab tribes that are proud natives of the Sudan. I may be mistaken so I'll ask again. What Sudanese tribes are firm natives?
Also what is up with Keita? In 2015 he was still trying to work through a Bantu migration frame. Free your mind S.O.Y.
This is interesting, I'd like to see Sudaniyas response to this.
Also no argument that has ground and hasn't been falsified by contemporary studies should be shitted on. When Akachi brings up something, I consider it when even Cass/ brings up something, I consider it. If it doesn't add up I won't promote it, If it's harmfully inaccurate I confront... (most of the times ....well, some of the times.) If it's transparently ridiculous, I let it rock.
With that being said, I as a third party elect to recommend that Akachi not change or leave but tone down the obsessive behavior towards white people, as a different perspective even if its from a SuperAfricentric Übermensch can be insightful. However what's between Beyoku & Akachi is between Beyoku and Akachi.
No need to censor him in my eyes....No body was fVcking with the OP anyways.
The thing is Akachi's stuff like Cass has been addressed MANY times and refuted on many forums even the alternative ES forum known as ES reloaded here!
It gets to a point where we should just ignore or clown these types.
If you look into the history, you'll notice that white supremacy never was satisfied with Afrocentric scholars. They always have been in conflict with Afrocentric scholars and anything leaning towards that. So I understand Akachi his point of view. I also explained to Akachi where the problem lies in this day and time. And from a sociological perspective he certainly is right.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not to mention, modern day southern Egyptians are different from the ancient southern Egyptians in more ways than just increased Eurasian. Hence the Abusir mummies' near-lack of SSA ancestry by NK/TIP times (contrary to modern Egyptians) and the position of this modern Elephantine sample seemingly nowhere near (pre)dynastic samples:
Interesting point you made there on Elephantine. How does one interpret this?
I have been to Elephantine, all inhabitants are very dark complected, with distinctive phenotype.
This is typical:
She said that Elephantine had flourished until the Graeco-Roman period. At the beginning of the First Dynasty, a fortress was built on the island to establish Egypt’s southern frontier. The town soon became an important customs point and trading centre, and it remained strategically significant throughout the Pharaonic period as a departure point for military and commercial expeditions into Nubia.
During the Sixth Dynasty, it gained in strength as a political and economic centre, and despite occasional ups and downs the island retained its importance until the Graeco-Roman period.
[...]
The Philae Island, now submerged by the waters of the dam, was originally located near the first cataract of the Nile and was the site of the ancient Egyptian Philae Temple dedicated to the goddess Isis.
Today, the temple occupies almost a quarter of Agilikia Island with its huge pylons and beautiful wall engravings. It was built in the style of the New Kingdom temples and contains Graeco-Roman elements such as the house of the god Horus and a Nilometer. Its construction started in the reign of the Pharaoh Ptolemy II, and Ptolemy IV, V, VI, VII and XI all contributed to it.
According to Greco-Roman authors, by the time of the Common Era, the people in your pic were more typical of Lower Nubia than Elephantine. Ptolemy said that people who live under (i.e. at the latitude of) the Tropic of Cancer don't have the skin pigmentation of Ethiopians. What is your reaction to that?
Elephantine is precisely under the Tropic of Cancer.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Who are the native tribes in the Sudan? A couple of years ago I tested a theory that I could go into any country in Africa and find at least one tribe that that traces their history to the Nile Valley. It was generally true. There were a few exceptions. I was surprised that Sudan was more difficult. It is the Nile Valley. I expected it to be oozing tribes who's history was a simple we are native. Squat was enough to include them. Yet in many cases I either did not find squat or I found outside origins. You have tribes like the Nuer who's history is 'unknown' in the mainstream and almost all of the Arab tribes traced their origins to Arabia. I considered religious bias. I know that there are people who wan't to be abrahamic and even some mixed up monkey-fools who want to be hamitic. Wit that in consideration its easier to find non-muslims or recent converts who trace their history to Asia like the Tikar stopping at Sudan along the way than it is to find black arab tribes that are proud natives of the Sudan. I may be mistaken so I'll ask again. What Sudanese tribes are firm natives?
Also what is up with Keita? In 2015 he was still trying to work through a Bantu migration frame. Free your mind S.O.Y.
You're finding it difficult to find black Arab Sudanese tribes that are proud native Sudanese? The entire Nation is proudly Sudanese.
Most tribes in Sudan are indigenous and those that have not been there for thousands of years, have been in Sudan for centuries and are now essentially Sudanese.
Most Arab Sudanese fully understand that they are indigenous to Sudan with only one Arab Patriarch being their only link to an Arab identity -- because it's natural for people to assume the identity of their fathers.
For instance, the Ja'alin tribe and the Shaigiya tribe claim that they are descendants of Abbas - the Prophet's uncle. Other tribes like the Dar Hamid tribes of Kordofan and Darfur claim descent from Hamid el Khuayn - an Egyptian Arab whose people (the Juhaynah tribe of Yanbu' al Bahr) were participants in the Arab invasion of Egypt. The Ma’alia claim descent from Abdullah ibn Unais - one of the Prophet's companions.
The Kawahla Arab tribe claim descent from Zubayr ibn al-Awam - the Prophet's maternal cousin. The Rashaida of Eastern Sudan are Ḥimyarite Arabs from Yemen but they too have mixed with Sudanese tribes to a limited extent. The various Baggara Arab tribes of Kordofan, Darfur and White Nile like the Misseriya and the Rizayqat are relatively new to Sudan - the late 1700s. The same is true for the Falata.
I hope that does it. There are too may Arab tribes for me to go through. The Southerners don't take any of these nuanced factors into consideration when they mock North Sudanese for being confused with identity; they call people fake Arabs and used to have signatures on Sudanese forums that said "One Arab, one bullet".
As for the Nuer, they are just a branch of the Dinka that eventually became their own tribe and left the Gezira to settle in Kordofan before pressure from Baggara Arab tribes forced them to flee further South and settle in Greater Upper Nile.
The Azande of Western Equatoria have only been in South Sudan for a couple of centuries, and this is also the case with the Murle of Jonglei.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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According to Greco-Roman authors, by the time of the Common Era, the people in your pic were more typical of Lower Nubia than Elephantine. Ptolemy said that people who live under (i.e. at the latitude of) the Tropic of Cancer don't have the skin pigmentation of Ethiopians. What is your reaction to that?
Elephantine is precisely under the Tropic of Cancer.
Yeah, I have seen that before. I am not sure if that translation is correct. Better yet, I doubt it very much, and it could have been exaggerated. I think it has to do with a geo-political statement. I do know that this particular region was a Graeco-Roman outpost, with very little Graeco-Romans actually living there (according to local oral tradition).
I have seen the murals etc. these reflect exactly the local people I have shown and described.
Considering that I have been there and have seen the excessively large desert landscape, I find it hard to believe what Ptolemy described, so I even doubt he himself actually went there himself. I sounds more like chest-pumping, he-said-she-said stories and make believe. Since one can't enter Elephantine that easily. Elephantine stretches from modern day Southern Egypt to modern day North Sudan, which didn't exist back then as geographical borders.
Also another problem arises, before Ptolemy (let's say he actually went there) the region was a colonial Persian outpost, which was part of the Achaemenid Empire.
It's a bit like Donald Trumps inauguration, with "alternative facts".
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Some of these Graeco-Roman testimonies remain odd. There are a lot of exaggerations and contradictions to put it nicely.
0411464
ARCHAEOLOGY. Relief with hieroglyphs at the entrance to the tomb of Amon Pen (Dynasty XIX), Abusir Necropolis, Egypt. Egyptian civilisation, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX. Full credit: De Agostini / S. Vannini / Granger, NYC
quote:To the south of Egypt, the Kushites had expanded into Lower Nubia between the first and second cataracts during the period of Persian rule. In 275–274 B.C., Ptolemy II drove back the Kushites and annexed the area, which was then developed as a sort of trade corridor between Egypt and the lands ruled by the Kushites, who had recentered at Meroë.
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: You're finding it difficult to find black Arab Sudanese tribes that are proud native Sudanese? The entire Nation is proudly Sudanese.
Most tribes in Sudan are indigenous and those that have not been there for thousands of years, have been in Sudan for centuries and are now essentially Sudanese.
Most Arab Sudanese fully understand that they are indigenous to Sudan with only one Arab Patriarch being their only link to an Arab identity -- because it's natural for people to assume the identity of their fathers.
For instance, the Ja'alin tribe and the Shaigiya tribe claim that they are descendants of Abbas - the Prophet's uncle. Other tribes like the Dar Hamid tribes of Kordofan and Darfur claim descent from Hamid el Khuayn - an Egyptian Arab whose people (the Juhaynah tribe of Yanbu' al Bahr) were participants in the Arab invasion of Egypt. The Ma’alia claim descent from Abdullah ibn Unais - one of the Prophet's companions.
The Kawahla Arab tribe claim descent from Zubayr ibn al-Awam - the Prophet's maternal cousin. The Rashaida of Eastern Sudan are &;imyarite Arabs from Yemen but they too have mixed with Sudanese tribes to a limited extent. The various Baggara Arab tribes of Kordofan, Darfur and White Nile like the Misseriya and the Rizayqat are relatively new to Sudan - the late 1700s. The same is true for the Falata.
I hope that does it. There are too may Arab tribes for me to go through. The Southerners don't take any of these nuanced factors into consideration when they mock North Sudanese for being confused with identity; they call people fake Arabs and used to have signatures on Sudanese forums that said "One Arab, one bullet".
As for the Nuer, they are just a branch of the Dinka that eventually became their own tribe and left the Gezira to settle in Kordofan before pressure from Baggara Arab tribes forced them to flee further South and settle in Greater Upper Nile.
The Azande of Western Equatoria have only been in South Sudan for a couple of centuries, and this is also the case with the Murle of Jonglei. [/QB]
Interesting. Thats close to what I remembered. I was expecting the Arab tribes to claim that they were descendants of Kush. My litmus was where do they say they came from. If anyone in the Sudan said they have always been there or came from somewhere else in the Nile Valley I counted them. I was surprised at how it was harder to find 'we have always been here' in the Sudan than we came from the Sudan in other countries.
I've never heard that about the Dinka. Would not surprise me after seeing Neter Neb's comparisons with Dinka and Egyptian transliterations. I think I might have counted the Dinka and Beja. I'll look it up and post it later.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: This is interesting, I'd like to see Sudaniyas response to this.
Also no argument that has ground and hasn't been falsified by contemporary studies should be shitted on. When Akachi brings up something, I consider it when even Cass/ brings up something, I consider it. If it doesn't add up I won't promote it, If it's harmfully inaccurate I confront... (most of the times ....well, some of the times.) If it's transparently ridiculous, I let it rock.
With that being said, I as a third party elect to recommend that Akachi not change or leave but tone down the obsessive behavior towards white people, as a different perspective even if its from a SuperAfricentric Übermensch can be insightful. However what's between Beyoku & Akachi is between Beyoku and Akachi.
No need to censor him in my eyes....No body was fVcking with the OP anyways.
My only issue with Akachi is that recent information pushes Yam and Punt out of the Nile Valley so its not just Tichet. Its also consistent with what I found. Africa is a cultural conglomerate, pan Africanism is common sense. There is no need to overstate how close we were in proximity to build off of shared ideals.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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For those who don't know Swenett is Aswan. The image above represents Thutmose III and Amun at Elephantine.
Aswan local:
Some background info:
quote:
Abu Simbel Temples: Relocation due to Aswan Dam
In professor Watrall’s lectures last week, he mentioned that modern Egypt built the Aswan Dam in an attempt to try to contain and minimize the impacts of the annual rising and falling of the water levels of the Nile that for centuries has caused fluctuations in the productivity of agriculture on the flood lands along the river. Due to the construction of the dam, many archaeological sites we threaten by the flooding that would result from the construction of the dam. One of the most famous sites that were threatened was the Abu Simbel temples located in Nubia. For those who are not familiar with the temples, the temples are located on the west bank of the Nile, just southwest of Aswan and were originally constructed during the time period of the Pharaoh Ramses II (around 1257 BCE).
abu simbel temples
The Abe Simbel temples are spectacular! In the past I had read about them and have grown quite fond of the temples themselves. The temples were discovered in 1813 and were explored in 1817 by Giovanni Battista Belzoni. The temples themselves were actually carved into a face of a cliff, much like our very own Mount Rushmore here in the United States. Instead of 5 faces of past presidents, the Abu Simbel temples’ front face shows four colossal seated figures of Ramses himself, all about 67 feet in height. It has been said that the construction of the temple took about 20 years to complete.
When the proposal of the construction of the Aswan Dam begun and discussions about the area at which would most likely flood started, it became imperative to move the Abel Simbel temples to a location that they would be safe from the rising water levels of Lake Nassar. So in 1959, an international donations campaign to save the monument began. According to one resource, the actual saving and reconstruction act for the temples required 5 years of time and approximately $40 million dollars. On Nov. 16,1963, the disassembling of the temples began. With the help of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) and the Egyptian government, the temples were successfully moved and reconstructed on top of a cliff another 200 feet above the original site.
During my search, I ran across a link for a video that discussed some of the tactics used to disassemble the temples. I thought it was extremely interesting and entertaining so I thought I would share it with you.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:My only issue with Akachi is that recent information pushes Yam and Punt out of the Nile Valley so its not just Tichet.
Punt is mentioned in the very beginning of the post as the area that we originated in. I also mentioned Yam in my bit on the ancient Sahara in the early part of the post.
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From what I'm hearing, the wait is almost over. Lots of "books", "papers" and "expert analyses" aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: From what I'm hearing, the wait is almost over. Lots of "books", "papers" and "expert analyses" aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles.
Where do you think the paper will be published in?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I hope they also release results on the paternal clades of these mummies and explain just how modern Egyptians have more African clades than these Abusir mummies.
Maybe the North and South were always two distinct zones -- one African (South) and one "Eurasian" (North).
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Idk, as much talk as there is of smashing "afrocentrists"/afroloons, I'm still holding out for Eurocentrists to get some unhappy surprises of their own so we'll see.
@Sudaniya: from what I've seen posted by swenet and some of the other guys Lower Egyptians were still indigenous even if being morphologically different from Upper Egyptians. I'm not going to throw them out just yet.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: From what I'm hearing, the wait is almost over. Lots of "books", "papers" and "expert analyses" aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles.
Heard the study is going to be released soon and cant wait. But why do you say none of the things listed wont matter anymore? Just curious.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: From what I'm hearing, the wait is almost over. Lots of "books", "papers" and "expert analyses" aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles.
Side note.
Given you posted on Jeff Sessions. He just announced a crackdown on drugs use. The places he mentioned are predominantly black areas.
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: I hope they also release results on the paternal clades of these mummies and explain just how modern Egyptians have more African clades than these Abusir mummies.
Maybe the North and South were always two distinct zones -- one African (South) and one "Eurasian" (North).
To come to neutral conclusions, we need a team of experts who are objective.
It is the same cat-mouse game all over again.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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@Nodnarb I wouldn't be surprised if they'd publish it in Nature.
@TP I meant it in a metaphorical sense. But thanks for the link.
@BBH I've already clarified in many threads (including the "when to use the term black" thread you created) what my objections are with different schools of thought out there. These objections have since been validated by Natufian aDNA in 2016, and now NK/TIP aDNA this year, while those faith-based schools of thought have nothing to show for themselves other than their continued evangelizing and misinformation efforts.
I'm not sure what you mean with your question. This has come up in many threads already, and has been discussed over many thread pages. Nothing new to be clarified.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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@Swenet, I understood what you meant. As crazy as it sounds, it does show relation to trend we see in here.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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1300BC to 426AD in Egypt is a time where large scale migrations occurred from the Levant and the European Mediterranean. Not sure what is going to come out that is "shocking" to anybody except those who aren't familiar with the era.
Unfortunately, some folks are hypocritical. If scholars REALLY wanted to know the African genetic relationships of the AE, they would do something similar to what was done vis-a-vis EEF and Basal Eurasian. In other words, filter out all unwanted "Eurasian" or non African DNA in order to understand the African SPECIFIC DNA relationships. In other words, what African populations from what part of Africa (Eastern Sahara/Western Sahara, Uppper Nile, 1st or 2nd Cataract, Red Sea, Darfur, Lake Chad, Khartoum, Puntland/Somaliland, etc. But of course they won't do that. But that is what would have to happen if these folks were serious about understanding those types of relationships WITHIN Africa.
Note also that there is no concept equivalent to "Sub Saharan" Africa in papers about EEF either. Specific populations and regions are listed and compared. The same thing needs to happen in Africa without that concept of "Sub Saharan".
I don't think anybody ever said they expected to find any Congolese, South African, Mozambican or Angolan DNA in Egypt. At most what folks have pointed out, quite accurately, is that there is some connection to West Africa via the Sahara and Sahel such as Lake Chad and the Nile Valley as can be seen in Northern Nigeria to this day as well as historic empires like Kanem Bornu and very likely more ancient trade routes through the same areas going back before that. Not to mention connections to places like the Horn of Africa. But nobody is going to be shocked if there isn't much Senegalese or Cameroonian DNA in ancient Egypt because most people never said there was in the first place.
Conversely, the idea that because there isn't a lot of DNA from Southern Africa, Kenya or Tanzania present, doesn't mean that ancient Egypt wasn't primarily populated by indigenous black African groups during the dynastic era. That is simply silly logic. As much as saying that because there wasn't a lot of Scandinavian DNA in Greece that the Greeks weren't primarily white.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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The earliest of these results are from 1300 years before Christ, so they are actually significant, so let's not pretend that this isn't substantial.
We still need the paternal profile of these Abusir mummies to determine just who they were -- ethnic Egyptians, foreigners or naturalized citizens.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Idk, as much talk as there is of smashing "afrocentrists"/afroloons, I'm still holding out for Eurocentrists to get some unhappy surprises of their own so we'll see.
@Sudaniya: from what I've seen posted by swenet and some of the other guys Lower Egyptians were still indigenous even if being morphologically different from Upper Egyptians. I'm not going to throw them out just yet.
Those percentages were not at all expected. The results are forcing a re-think for me on Northern Egypt - at least for that time period. I still don't understand how modern Egyptians can have more African DNA than these Abusir mummies - unless these people are not ethnic Egyptians.
I hope they provide answers to some of the questions that will invariably be tended to them:
How can the Bedouin be genetically closer to these mummies than even modern Egyptians? Why is there no semblance of genetic continuity?
What explains the supposedly sharp increase of African DNA in modern Egyptians if these Abusir mummies are ethnic Egyptians?
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Akachi: Punt is mentioned in the very beginning of the post as the area that we originated in. I also mentioned Yam in my bit on the ancient Sahara in the early part of the post.
You answered my curiosity. I knew what your objections always were(people not updating their ideas). However I was just curious what you meant with this part: "Lots of books, papers and "expert analyses" aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles."
Since there was no context. Many people here and around the web believes there is a "mountain of evidence" that shows the African origins of Ancient Egypt. With the, "Lots of books, papers and expert analyses aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles" post I assumed there was going to be something in a way challenges the "mountain of evidences" that we've seen over the years.
And anyways I may have just over-read.
PS: Doesn't this validate your claims?
quote:At the genome-wide level, Egypt is quite similar to its Levantine neighbours, displaying a mainly Near Eastern (39.8%) and Arabian/North African (30.5%) background, with slightly higher western (5.6%) and eastern (15.1%) African proportions, and lower European (8.4%) and South Asian (0.6%) proportions. The ROLLOFF estimate for admixture in Egypt (using Africans and Europeans as ancestral populations) was 30 generations, predictably young due to continuous gene flow between the two regions. Morocco and Tunisia presented similar western (9.8–12.2%) and eastern African (10.4–12.1%) components and roughly twice the magnitude for each of the European (22.8–25.5%), Near Eastern (21.4–26.0%) and Arabian (28.9–31.0%) pools. Again these young dates show that simple genome-wide dating approaches based on linkage disequilibrium decay must be applied cautiously in complex scenarios of several migrations occurring over a long span of time, such as the ones which took place across the Red Sea, North Africa [56] and Iberia [57].
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Swenet
You answered my curiosity. I knew what your objections always were(people not updating their ideas). However I was just curious what you meant with this part: "Lots of books, papers and "expert analyses" aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles."
Since there was no context. Many people here and around the web believes there is a "mountain of evidence" that shows the African origins of Ancient Egypt. With the, "Lots of books, papers and expert analyses aren't going to fly anymore outside of faith-based circles" post I assumed there was going to be something in a way challenges the "mountain of evidences" that we've seen over the years.
And anyways I may have just over-read.
PS: Doesn't this validate your claims?
quote:At the genome-wide level, Egypt is quite similar to its Levantine neighbours, displaying a mainly Near Eastern (39.8%) and Arabian/North African (30.5%) background, with slightly higher western (5.6%) and eastern (15.1%) African proportions, and lower European (8.4%) and South Asian (0.6%) proportions. The ROLLOFF estimate for admixture in Egypt (using Africans and Europeans as ancestral populations) was 30 generations, predictably young due to continuous gene flow between the two regions. Morocco and Tunisia presented similar western (9.8–12.2%) and eastern African (10.4–12.1%) components and roughly twice the magnitude for each of the European (22.8–25.5%), Near Eastern (21.4–26.0%) and Arabian (28.9–31.0%) pools. Again these young dates show that simple genome-wide dating approaches based on linkage disequilibrium decay must be applied cautiously in complex scenarios of several migrations occurring over a long span of time, such as the ones which took place across the Red Sea, North Africa [56] and Iberia [57].
^^If I am not mistaken shouldn't the Levantine/Near Eastern ancestry be "Natufian-like"?
It's really strange that they chose to conflate Arabian and North African in that study. It should have been broken down a more with each genetic contribution standing alone in its percentage level.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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I didn't think this NK/TIP Abusir sample would have close to 0% SSA-specific ancestry. That was just as much a surprise for me as this is very early. But I did think somewhat later Egyptians (closer to the Common Era) would have a lot less SSA ancestry than modern Egyptians. I talked about this in the Natufian thread using the Coptic Egyptian immigrant sample from Sudan and their rootedness in the region despite little SSA ancestry. But I didn't think this was apparently already the case as early as the NK.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The [Egyptian immigrant Coptic sample from Sudan] doesn't have a higher degree of SSA "genetics". That's the whole point. Just like the pre-contact Canary Island aDNA shows for coastal Maghreb, their affinities bespeak that Egypt has recent SSA and non-African 'migration' ('migration' in quotes because it might just be ancestry that was already there, e.g. pale Greek/Balkan-looking Copts have been in Egypt for some time, slowly going up in the population).
Thanks for the reply.And I too was surprised for this also being apparent in the NK too! Like Sudaniya said I too badly want to see the Y-DNA results of these mummies.
And I think I seen that post you quoted before. Also, I do believe that those pale looking Copts could have been in Egypt for some time. Me like other Africanist use to write them off as recent immigrants but as of recently I had to rethink. From your post with Ish Geber it seems those "black" Upper Egyptians does not always mean "pure Egyptian" like some of us use to think.
Anyways the study I inked. Do you believe the Near Eastern/Levantine ancestry could be "Natufian-like"? Because if so I believe it correlates to what you been saying.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Swenet
Thanks for the reply.And I too was surprised for this also being apparent in the NK too! Like Sudaniya said I too badly want to see the Y-DNA results of these mummies.
And I think I seen that post you quoted before. Also, I do believe that those pale looking Copts could have been in Egypt for some time. Me like other Africanist use to write them off as recent immigrants but as of recently I had to rethink. From your post with Ish Geber it seems those "black" Upper Egyptians does not always mean "pure Egyptian" like some of us use to think.
Anyways the study I inked. Do you believe the Near Eastern/Levantine ancestry could be "Natufian-like"? Because if so I believe it correlates to what you been saying.
Even modern Southern Egyptians are not "pure", but I still believe that they best represent dynastic Egyptians. The undeniably African predynastic Badarians and Naqadans were apparently representative of dynastic Egyptians, so I don't see how Southern Egyptians would not best represent ancient Egyptians for most of its dynastic period. Northern Egypt must have changed earlier than we thought.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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