(De Agostini Picture Library/G. Sioen/ Bridgeman Images)A 12th Dynasty (1981–1802 B.C.) fresco from the tomb of Khnumhotep III in Beni Hassan shows a group of Semitic people, possibly Canaanite merchants, arriving in Egypt. They are thought to be related culturally to the dynasty that called itself the Hyksos.
posted
One can see that they are depicted with slightly different hue than the Egyptians. But as always, this is art, following the conventions of that culture, no photos, so one must always be a bit careful. And even photos vary in tone and brightness. Better go there and see them in original.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: How do I reduce size of a pic?
some of the image hosting sites have size change options before you finalize the picture upload, that is the easy way, you start an account with one of the free image hosting sites
and other way to do it is know how to look up how to use snipping screen shots on a PC or Mac and before getting to this stage use commands to reduce the size of the page where the photo you want is. Then using the snipping function you copy and save the photo
then, having set up and image host you upload the reduced sized saved photo to the image host where it provides a new URL include copying the URL to the post if that is requested at source. You must use an image hosting site, the resizing is done there or before you post to it
Posts: 42936 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Sometimes it is best to get things directly out of the horses mouth. Here is a a small piece found in Israel, and about 2800 years old.
quote: This Monday, June 4, 2018 photo shows a detailed figurine of a king's head on display at the Israel Museum, dating to biblical times, and found last year near Israel's northern border with Lebanon, in Jerusalem. A palm-sized enigmatic sculpture of a king's head dating back nearly 3,000 years has set off a modern-day mystery caper as scholars try to figure out whose face it depicts. The 5-centimeter (2-inch) head is an exceedingly rare example of figurative art from the Holy Land during the 9th century BC, a period associated with biblical kings. (AP Photo/Ilan Ben Zion)
The 5-centimeter (2-inch) sculpture is an exceedingly rare example of figurative art from the Holy Land during the 9th century B.C. — a period associated with biblical kings. Exquisitely preserved but for a bit of missing beard, nothing quite like it has been found before.
While scholars are certain the stern bearded figure wearing a golden crown represents royalty, they are less sure which king it symbolizes, or which kingdom he may have ruled.
I wonder why the made that head so small if he was a "king"?
quote: In 922 B.C., the nation of Israel was torn into two nations, Israel to the north and Judah to the south. Israel was racked by internal tribal differences and, subsequently, became susceptible to frequent invasions.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Khufu (?)
Ok, you do have somewhat of a point. However, this was made thousands of years prior, 2589–2566 BC.
At least we know it's Khufu and his (social) "stature". No pun intended. And 800 B.C. they were more skillful as appose to 2589–2566 BC.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:The statuette is identified as Khufu,king of the IVth dynasty ,by the ka name of the king,inscribed on the right side of the throne(PI.I).Petrie immediately dated this statuette to the IVth dynasty on the basis of the name inscribed on the throne,convincing all subsequent archaeologists and art historians of the validity of his assertion and dismissing as superfluous any thought of comparison with IVth dynasty sculpture.I disagree with this dating and believe instead that the statuette was manufactured in the XXVIth dynasty (26th),also known as the Neo-Memphite period.Let us now examine the archaeological evidence pertaining to the discovery of this statuette as well as the artistic and historical evidence connected with the IVth and XXVIth dynasties.
The statuette is identified as Khufu,king of the IVth dynasty ,by the ka name of the king,inscribed on the right side of the throne(PI.I).Petrie immediately dated this statuette to the IVth dynasty on the basis of the name inscribed on the throne,convincing all subsequent archaeologists and art historians of the validity of his assertion and dismissing as superfluous any thought of comparison with IVth dynasty sculpture.I disagree with this dating and believe instead that the statuette was manufactured in the XXVIth dynasty (26th),also known as the Neo-Memphite period.Let us now examine the archaeological evidence pertaining to the discovery of this statuette as well as the artistic and historical evidence connected with the IVth and XXVIth dynasties.
You be like OJ, I be like 1985 … Ok?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
On p31 in this 2018 republication of a 2006 book Hawass says nothing about the Khufu statuette as a post NK product, He only mentions it was found at the temple of KhentiAmentiu ancient netcher of Abydos' City of the Dead, the first of its kind ever erected, founded in the late Predynastic period. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C1E86MYgL.jpg
@ Ish Gebor Can't thank you enough. Been searching and searching and searching since 1998 for hi-def images of the facial profiles of the Three Elders of Lachish on their knees in front of Sennacherib.
Relief fragment of Sanakht in the pose of smiting an enemy. Originally from the Sinai, now EA 691 on display at the British Museum. (3rd Dyn)
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Sometimes it is best to get things directly out of the horses mouth. Here is a a small piece found in Israel, and about 2800 years old.
The folks who found this thing, have an inferiority/ superiority complex. They saw some thing "looking white", so it had to be a royalty. Let's make him a king. It's complete baseless babble, but a very classical school of thought way of "thinking". (no pun intended)
It could be that he was a random dude from foreign army, who invaded the region. That is what makes most sense. And even if he was a king, he's not local.
quote: Ben Zion writes that Abel is significant for its location at the junction of ancient powers. Another Biblical reference to the city, found in Kings 1 15:20, includes Abel in a list of places attacked by Aramean King Ben Hadad during his invasion of Israel's territory.
[…]
Based on carbon dating’s inability to pinpoint the statue’s date beyond some point during the 9th century B.C., as well as the geopolitical conflicts that characterized the region at the time, archaeologists have a wide range of candidates for the figure’s identity.
Other articles tell us that this little thing was found in the North, Abel Beth Maacah, near the modern day city of Metula, while Lachish was in the South. Meaning you are hopelessly posting random stuff. It's like a randomly swinging your fists in the dark, in hopes that you will hit something.
quote: King Hazael? A detailed figurine of a king's head on display at the Israel Museum, dating to biblical times, and found near Israel's northern border with Lebanon, in Jerusalem.
“The guy kind of represents the generic way Semitic people are described,” she said.
Because Carbon-14 dating cannot give a more exact date for the statue’s creation other than sometime in the 9th century, the field of potential candidates is large. Yahalom-Mack posited it could be kings Ben Hadad or Hazael of Damascus, Ahab or Jehu of Israel, or Ithobaal of Tyre, all characters appearing in the biblical narrative.
quote: In one biblical story, a traitor to King David seeks refuge in the town. King David’s army besieges it and demands the traitor be given up. In response, the people of Abel Beth Maacah cut off the traitor’s head and toss it over the walls. Getting what they wanted, the Israelites end the siege.
[…]
The sculpture itself is only two inches in size. It’s well preserved and mostly intact. The figure has a beard and is wearing a crown. It’s considered a rare example of figurative art during that time period. Figurative art is defined as representational art derived from real objects or people. The hairstyle of the figure with a beard gives some clues to his ethnic identity.
The hair is pulled back in thick locks that cover the ears and is held in place by a striped headband. The art form is similar to how ancient Egyptian artists portrayed Semitic peoples of the Near East.
It’s still not known who the head depicted is and from what nationality they were from, though it’s likely a royal figure. The man portrayed was certainly an important person in his community.
But they have no clue what king it may have been or from which kingdom. The time period of the sculpture is from the period of biblical kings. After the death of David’s son, King Solomon, the Kingdom of Israel split into two entities with separate kingships, Israel in the north and Judah in the south.
Scholars have guessed at some contemporary names the sculpture could represent. They include biblical figures such as King Ben Hadad or Hazael of Damascus, Ethbaal of Tyre, and King Ahab or Jehu of Israel, whose capital was Samaria.
Knowing what king it might be would answer some questions. However, there are no known references or sources to check outside of the Bible narrative.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Interesting about ancient male Jewish hair
quote:One of the more fascinating finds in this tomb, one that has not received much attention, was the preservation of a sample of Jewish male hair. The hair was lice-free, and was trimmed or cut evenly, probably indicating that the family buried in this tomb practiced good hygiene and grooming. The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.
Anyway, Afro textured hair is usually lice-free due to the texture lice have a hard time surviving in it. The tighter the curls the more difficult it will be for the lice to survive in. And reddish hair "can" be a sign of malnutrition.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Phrygian cap or liberty cap is a soft conical cap with the apex bent over, associated in antiquity with several peoples in Eastern Europe and Anatolia, including Phrygia, Dacia, and the Balkans. During the French Revolution it came to signify freedom and the pursuit of liberty, although Phrygian caps did not originally function as liberty caps. The original cap of liberty was the Roman pileus, the felt cap of manumitted (emancipated) slaves of ancient Rome, which was an attribute of Libertas, the Roman goddess of liberty.Posts: 42936 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I doubt the color was due to malnurishment considering the indication of good hygene..
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Interesting about ancient male Jewish hair
quote:One of the more fascinating finds in this tomb, one that has not received much attention, was the preservation of a sample of Jewish male hair. The hair was lice-free, and was trimmed or cut evenly, probably indicating that the family buried in this tomb practiced good hygiene and grooming. The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.
Anyway, Afro textured hair is usually lice-free due to the texture lice have a hard time surviving in it. The tighter the curls the more difficult it will be for the lice to survive in. And reddish hair "can" be a sign of malnutrition.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Nasaba Historical Tours, host/ tour guide Ya'oh-shob.
Siege of Lachish - British Museum
Take a look with me at the depictions of the Ancient Israelites (Ghabaray ban Ya'oh-sharal) from the Kingdom of Judah (Ya'oh-da) by the conquering Assyrians.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Because if you are malnurished, so poor you cant afford to eat but you have time to practice food hygene...
Anyway the tomb belonged to an elite Family, so this further makes the malnurished nature of the hair color seem even more silly and ridiculous.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I doubt the color was due to malnurishment considering the indication of good hygene..
I am not sure if, and how these two directly correlate.
posted
Seems that there has been some phenotypic variation over time in the part of the world that we now call Israel. Here is a report of a Chalcolithic population which incorporated genes for blue eyes and light skin in it´s genome.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2688 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The Levant, including Palestine, is a nexus for three continents. People from each streamed into it at various and multiple times throughout history.
Yes anomalous and far from any norm unless close to Anatolia as in AE art. Your marvelous blue-eyed race isn't responsible for Levantine culture anywhere from Ebla to Edom.
The archive's got this covered.
There is no blue-eyed norm for ancient south Levant.
No recollection of blue eyes in Hebrew lit. Not until the pseudo-Aramaic Zohar of Spain thousands of years after the fact do blue eyes enter as a description for any Israelite.
Introduction of blue eyes from the Zagros has nothing to do with any earliest picture of an Israelite. Pictures of some Retjenu show them with light eyes, presumed blue or grey rather than hazel.
posted
Reddish hair 2000 years ago, lightly colored statue heads 2800 years ago, and some blue eyes 6500 years ago. At least it seems that everyone was not always "black" in what is now Israel, during the millennia.
The research of the demography of the ancient Levant continues. Shall be interesting to see what we find in the future.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2688 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1: 3813bc27c2b6de8642c2d4d[/IMG]
I don't know the amount of mental gymnastics you had to pull off in order to write what you just did, but as the artwork(s) show, the curl pattern is much tighter, i.e it's African textured hair. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Try again. [/QB]
As if all ancient art was hyper realistic, as if there were not any artistic conventions or symbolic meanings of different stylistic traits. Those ancient pictures are not photos.
Seems as soon as you see some curly locks you immediately think "black". Must be boring to live in such limited world.
Has anyone here actually been in the Middle East, or do you just sit and Google ancient pictures and draw your own conclusions?
Seems some people live in a simplified world of Black and White without having any clue about the complexity of reality. Get out of your study chambers, travel some, and do some archaeological field work
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2688 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Reddish hair 2000 years ago, lightly colored statue heads 2800 years ago, and some blue eyes 6500 years ago. At least it seems that everyone was not always "black" in what is now Israel, during the millennia.
The research of the demography of the ancient Levant continues. Shall be interesting to see what we find in the future.
That may not be true,mutations in the hair and eyes,assuming it wasn't some kind of natural dye doesn't mean the folks had to necessarily look like the contemporary inhabitant. There is no reason the ancient couldn't have some kind of tyrosinase positive form of albinism.
Here's a description of OCA3 albinism
Clinical description Visual anomalies, such as nystagmus, are frequently undetectable and patients usually present with one of two phenotypes: rufous OCA (ROCA), characterized by red-bronze skin color, blue or brown irises and ginger-red hair, or brown OCA (BOCA), characterized by light to brown hair and a light to brown or tan skin color. The clinical features of OCA3 have been considered as rather mild, and in the rare cases of non-African patients, reddish hair color has been reported. A Japanese girl was reported with having OCA3 who presented with blond hair and light skin (with a small Mongolian spot), was able to tan and was negative for nystagmus.
Etiology OCA3 is caused by a mutation in the tyrosinase-related protein 1, TYRP1, gene located on chromosome 9p23. The majority of BOCA cases are seen in OCA2, but a few BOCA phenotypes have been reported with mutations in the TYRP1 gene, indicating OCA3.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who proposed everyone was black, something determined by alleles of skin color genes, in the south Levant?
Plus, blue eyes are not white skin. South Africa probably holds the record for blue eyes and brown skin if we ignore the fact of blue eyes and brown skin in various early Holocene Europeans. "At least it seems that everyone was not always ['white'] in what is now [Europe], during the millennia"
First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin
First Irish populations had dark skin similar to Cheddar Man, DNA research suggests
Etc
But really? So what?
Searched and can't find those aDNA and hair eye skin charts that were put up not so long ago. Meanwhile here's the ADMIXTURE involving Villabruna/Hotu and Anatoli exemplared ancestries that presumably left the Zagros to add to Mesopotamian and Levantine populations[*]. Levant and Iran boxed.
Neolithic Levant also has a slither of Ful exemplared ancestry (forest) alongside the Sahra-Med. At lower Ks, Sahra-Med populations are also forest. This suggests co- genesis of the two as evinced by Humid Period art in Algeria, Libya, and Niger. Mykenaea's got a touch of that forest colored Ful exemplified ancestry too.
Late Pleistocene up to now 'Out of Africa' happened continuously. Flow from every possible node of exode. The Atlantic Mediterranean to the Bab em Mandel unlimited.
=-=-=
[*]
quote:Originally posted 23 May, 2014 by Tukuler:
There is no other word for the inhabitants and emmigrating peoples from the Caucasus Mountains other than the word Caucasian because that is precisely what they are, CAUCASIANS.
Caucasians passed down through the Daryal Gorge to enter Mesopotamia and the Levant to influx resident populations and to form new ethnies of their own.
The eastern Mediterranean is a nexus of three continents. It and the Arabian Peninsula were peopled by other migrant invaders who didn't originally speak in Afrisian. Semitic speakers were among the first but weren't the only inhabitants of the region. Chadic and/or Nilo-Saharan speakers likely preceded them. Indo-Europeans, Caucasics, Altaics, etc., came after them probably via Daryal Gorge through the Caucasus.
From this can be gathered, if anything, that "Semites" are partially North East Africans who migrated into the Arabian peninsula and moved northward (as far as up to Turkey) where they met and mingled with and were maybe blocked from further spread by southward invading Eurasian peoples (Altaic and Indo-European speakers) in pre-historic times. Upon the eclipse of the southerners the hybrids and assimilated settlers (beginning circa -1800 with the maryannu caste) became heir to the names and languages of the original people they married into and whose culture they emulated and lexicon enriched.
People look at the familiar faces from the region as shown by the media and never see all the faces on the back streets and non-urban areas which more than likely resemble the original indigenees even before E3b bearers introduced Afrisan and the beginnings of neolithic industries.
It was the good life Afrisan speakers initiated and the indigenees nurtured that made the place a magnet for immigrants to cross the Daryal Gorge to infuse themselves in SWANEA. And Indo-European speakers continued to migrate in whatever numbers especially in Roman Byzantine and Crusader eras. Not to count the sexual slave trade (particularly in Circassian females) with the rise of Islam.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
How come the art is OK when you like and flaky when it doesn't support your Eurocentricity (ideas originated by Europeans)?
"Seems as soon as you see some [blue eyes] you immediately think "[non-]black". Must be boring to live in such limited world." Says the man who brought up color expecting all to bow down to Bwana's opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1: 3813bc27c2b6de8642c2d4d[/IMG]
I don't know the amount of mental gymnastics you had to pull off in order to write what you just did, but as the artwork(s) show, the curl pattern is much tighter, i.e it's African textured hair. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Try again.
As if all ancient art was hyper realistic, as if there were not any artistic conventions or symbolic meanings of different stylistic traits. Those ancient pictures are not photos.
Seems as soon as you see some curly locks you immediately think "black". Must be boring to live in such limited world. [/QB]
.
Why has anthropology since white Euros invented it listed thin noses and lips, curly to wavy hair, as immediate indicators to think "white", even in the darkest inner African Afrs?
posted
Some facial reconstructions of ancient people found in Israel. Some may see it as white washing, but on the other hand, does anyone here actually believe he/she knows more about the populations of ancient Israel than the anthropologist behind these reconstructions?
How many ancient remains have you actually examined? How much anthropological or archaeological fieldwork have you done?
Have you ever talked with any anthropologists or archaeologists from Israel?
OK, here are a couple of pics. You may accept or not accept them :-)
For me, I do not say that the ancient Israelites always looked so or so. I just acknowledge the variation one can see in both art, in archaeological material and human remains.
Reality is not always black or white as in the minds of both some Afrocentrics, and some Eurocentrics.
"The lifelike faces, fashioned from clay by a Canadian forensic artist, are based on the skulls of four people whose remains were unearthed in Israel. They include a male, perhaps a hunter, who lived 6,000 years ago and was buried in a Judean Desert cave; a baby interred inside a vase underneath a Jordan Valley house in the same period; a woman thought to be a Philistine who lived on the coast near Ashkelon 3,000 years ago; and a Galilean male who lived around the time of Jesus."
"The skulls were reconstructed for the show by an Israeli forensic anthropologist, Israel Hershkovitz of Tel Aviv University, with the help of technicians using 3D imaging equipment. Victoria Lywood, the forensic artist, then produced clay renderings of what the four might have looked like when they were alive."
The reconstructed face of a woman believed to be a Philistine,
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The Lachish series remains the earliest pictures of Israelites, and as seen by a conquering people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew captives
.
Here are the '3 Elders' of Lachish in a better img than the one I hand-scanned from Pritchard and put on the web back around 1999.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Authenticity trumps nationalism and ethnocentricism.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
According to Ruth Jacoby's chapter in the Sixth Archaeological Conference in Israel (Tel-Aviv, 14-15 March 1979) / Collectif. - Jerusalem : Israel Exploration Society, 1979 the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like.
From ANE
>"The details that do exist in the reliefs could ... have been drawn wholly >from written campaign accounts and interviews with partcipants from both >sides. In this context two things should be remembered. First, many >inhabitants of captured cities were deported to Assyria, so it should not >have been difficult to Locate Lachishites to interview; Barnett observed >that men wearing the costume of the Lachishites were shown among the >laborers in the bull-hauling scenes of Court VI and in the royal bodyguard >in the Ishtar Temple procession. Second, Sennacherib's palace was being >built and decorated at the same time the first few campaigns were being >conducted; the relief designers could draw on recent memories, unclouded by >time, to insure the accuracy of their immages. Thus we might expect to find >greater accuracy in the early campaign reliefs of Sennacherib than in those >of Assyrian kings whose palaces date to the later part of their reign." >(Russell 1991:208f)
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why ignore historians who lived during the time of Judaea and ascribe Egyptian and Ethiopian ancestry for Judaeans in general and even write that members of another race are adapting the cultural heritage nationalizing as Geriym Ssadaqiym (converting to Judaea-ism).
"... other men, who, although of a different race, have adopted the laws of the people."
Cassius Dio Roman History 37:17:1
Also in the Greek Scriptures Paul, the Judaean(?) founder of Christianity was mistaken for an Egyptian
Art not thou that Egyptian ...
Acts 21:38
This aligns with Greco-Latin thought
One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
then there's the most popular Roman opinion that Judeans are an Æthiopian subset.
The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
posted
The ancient Canaanites were closely related to the Israelites. Even in Jews and Lebanese of today there is a fairly large amount of Canaanite genetic heritage.
As we have seen before the people in the ancient Levant could vary some in their looks, but most of them seem just to have resembled Middle Easterners and Levantines of today.
Back to pictures. Here are a couple of depictions from different times
A small Canaanite sculpture from the 14th-13th century BC, found in the Levant
Once again the nice 2800 years old sculpture head from Abel Beth Maacah, located just south of Israel's border with Lebanon, near the modern-day town of Metula.
Lets jump forward in time: This is a Roman denarius depicting Titus, c. 79. The reverse shows a Jewish captive kneeling in front of a trophy of arms
Figures from the 300s AD, from mosaics in a synagogue in northern Israel.
A dramatic image of Jonah from the same synagogue
Then we have a the well known image, based on educated guesses how a Jew could look like in Jesus time
Another modern image with a rather typical Middle Eastern face.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2688 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
\ Remove any sentences in posts calling somebody by a name they don't call themselves or I am am deleting the whole post for trolling, trying to instigate by coming up with your own nickname for people, will be removing such posts 11 pm EST US excluding old posts prior to new period moderation prior to 2021
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