I am not informed enough to explain Fst and pi values. Maca-Meyer said that chart shows highest divesity of U6 in Iberians.
First off, Fst actually estimates differences between two samples rather than internal diversity of samples, while the pi calculation estimates the internal nucleotide diversities of clades. Instead of just parroting what research teams said, it is generally a good idea to have a firm grounding on the science.
I looked at the haplogroup distribution in Maca-Meyer et al.'s report, and I found that U6's distribution is actually more diverse in Africa than it is in Iberia. The African distribution covered U6a-U6c, not including the basal U6 clades, while the Iberian clades were mainly restricted to U6a and U6b. The Iberian distribution is therefore a subset of the African distribution. Hence, it's not surprising Maca-Meyer et al. also note as follows:
In Europe, U6 lineages have been consistently sampled only in the Iberian Peninsula. It has been mentioned that U6 nucleotide diversity is higher in Iberia than in Africa [12]. This has been confirmed here (Table 3). However, S is greater in West Africa. Considering the isolation of the different Berber groups we think that, in this case, the latter is a better diversity measure.
quote: I thought I had seen a U6 frequency chart before that showed Europe with next highest frequency but that may have been an H chart. Are you claiming that U6 is next highest in other Africans after NorthAfricans/Canaries? I couldn't find info.
I don't see its distribution being higher outside of Africa than in Africa, even when not considering the Maghreb. At least, not going by the source you cited yourself, aka Maca-Meyer et al.
quote:But I think the character of the earlier U does not suggest African origin.
What is the "earlier U", and what bearing does it have on U6's origin? U6 doesn't descend from the presently identified U clades; I'm not sure you understand that.
quote:Give an opinion instead of trying soley to expose my limits.
I've been making my viewpoint on U6 fairly known, long before you've joined ES. Any attentive poster, and longstanding enough, would know where I stand on U6 phylogeny by now. Unlike you, I don't simply post excerpts, and leave people to guess what the point was. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Not to start anything..nothing new. But researching Albert Zink(Son of Ra), I came across this. Reminded me of the idiotic stateme in this threadnt by Beyoku.."Sardinia is ONLY an Island". Some of us with limited intelligence do not see the importance of Sardinia in all of this. Zink also did Otzi Alps Iceman.
OK now I am about to start calling you stupid. Otzi is in fact MORE Sardinian than even Sardinians. He is "southern European" par excellence. Somewhat like Basques.
quote: The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes, we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that he was probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk—somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a shepherd. Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula.
Otzi: Only 5.7% "North West African". Only 2.4% East African. 0% West African
Who are the most "North West African": Mozabite @ 90%, Moroccans at 41%. Ethiopians Jews, Somalis and Egyptians are about 11-12% "North West African." Sardiniansa are only 3.9% North West African at K=12.
You are arguing from ignorance. You have no idea what you are talking about and making yourself a laughing stock the process.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
^ Indeed. Xyzman is ill-informed and unfortunately instead of supplementing his knowledge with actual facts he does so with ridiculous theories. As far as the info you just cited, the irony is that of all the southern European regions mentioned-- Iberia, Sicily, and Sardinia-- only the last one has the least African genetic influence in fact very negligible. This is why many geneticists note that the indigenous populations of Sardinia were relatively isolated because they preserve lineages that are quintessentially European (NRY hg I) and not varying degrees of E or J found in the other regions. I fear Xyz is back to the ridiculous theory that the original Europeans were black Africans ala Afronut theory of Mike and Marc Washington.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The evidence points to Egypt gradually becoming more and more like modern day Egyptians. There are no abrupt changes. The pre dynastic Egyptian material clusters with Upper and Lower Nubians and then, the more time passes, the more the Egyptian samples gravitate towards the cranio-facial pattern of modern Egypt:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
EPD........= Early Predynastic LPD........= Late Predynastic Edynastic..= Early Dynastic OK.........= Old Kingdom MK.........= Middle Kingdom Late.......= the Late Dynastic E-series from Gizeh.
^Note that the ''late'' sample above approximates the cranio-facial pattern of modern Northern Africans. In Keita 1988 it clustered with a very recent sample from the Maghreb. You can clearly see a trend of Egyptian samples going upward along PC 1, as time passes,
Well my position has been this for a while, that the Change was Gradual rather than abrubt. I asked because some Eurocentrics try to claim Egypt was mixed from the start. I wanted to see if Henn et al. supports this. From my brief reading it does'nt seem so but I was just wondering if I missed something.
Not to mention that this finding also supports the historical records of continuous infiltration of Egypt from Asia from late dynastic times up until the Ottoman Empire.
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You are right Beyoku. Light blue is Southern European. Wink wink. Again, I don't visit these other sites, but I will check your source. Two strikes and you are out. I never said Otzi wasn't closest to Sardinians. Reading and understanding seems to be problem with you also. I am saying after Sardinia his ancestral home most likely is North African. Maybe Dienkes has more info than me. I will be black....eh back. He! He!
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Not to start anything..nothing new. But researching Albert Zink(Son of Ra), I came across this. Reminded me of the idiotic stateme in this threadnt by Beyoku.."Sardinia is ONLY an Island". Some of us with limited intelligence do not see the importance of Sardinia in all of this. Zink also did Otzi Alps Iceman.
OK now I am about to start calling you stupid. Otzi is in fact MORE Sardinian than even Sardinians. He is "southern European" par excellence. Somewhat like Basques.
quote: The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes, we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that he was probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk—somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a shepherd. Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula.
Otzi: Only 5.7% "North West African". Only 2.4% East African. 0% West African
Who are the most "North West African": Mozabite @ 90%, Moroccans at 41%. Ethiopians Jews, Somalis and Egyptians are about 11-12% "North West African." Sardiniansa are only 3.9% North West African at K=12.
You are arguing from ignorance. You have no idea what you are talking about and making yourself a laughing stock the process.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I've been making my viewpoint on U6 fairly known, long before you've joined ES. Any attentive poster, and longstanding enough, would know where I stand on U6 phylogeny by now. Unlike you, I don't simply post excerpts, and leave people to guess what the point was. [/QB]
I haven't seen high ferquencies for U6 listed in inner Africa. Senegal Kenya and Ethiopia are coastal that suggests maritime trade. U has an inland spread in West Asia genrally. That may not prove origin but it suggests it. If you've been up on U6 for so long so you have a world frequency comparision source?
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Btw. You can call me whatever you want. Does it look like I care. I only have a problem with DHoxie lumping in with.....racist.
No one has proven me wrong!!!
Oh. You do know be carries two motifs unique to Pygmy and Ethiopians. Pointing again to this ancestral homeland. Let me check your links.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^ Of course you have been proven wrong, multiple times and on multiple threads. But apparently you aren't smart enough to realize it.
Speaking of not smart...
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: I haven't seen high ferquencies for U6 listed in inner Africa. Senegal Kenya and Ethiopia are coastal that suggests maritime trade. U has an inland spread in West Asia genrally. That may not prove origin but it suggests it. If you've been up on U6 for so long so you have a world frequency comparision source?
The populations of all those sub-Saharan countries in which possess U6 are all found inland AWAY from any coasts! The U6 in Kenya is found among the Maasai for example! LMAO
So there again you have no idea what you're saying. That U6 in these areas is somehow attributed to "maritime" contact is also laughable because the highest frequency and diversity lie within the Maghreb so I don't know which maritime Maghrebis sailed to Kenya and Ethiopia during ancient or prehistoric times. Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Btw. You can call me whatever you want. Does it look like I care. I only have a problem with DHoxie lumping in with.....racist.
No one has proven me wrong!!!
Oh. You do know be carries two motifs unique to Pygmy and Ethiopians. Pointing again to this ancestral homeland. Let me check your links.
Over 10 years ago I used to frequent this arcade in my hometown. Lots of folks used to hang out there. There was this older burnout guy that was going to the local community college. I was with a friend and we started talking about each other all in good fun. I told that guy "Man you so dumb you dont even know 9 times 9". We laughed.
He sat with a serious look on his face. I actually thought the discussion was over and continued playing street fighter. After a minute or two he was like "63 NIGGA WHAT....What....What!".
he then walked away with a satisfied look. I then turned and look at my friend like damn...he was so sure.....maybe it is 63...its not 63 is it? The friend said, i dont think so....he could be right but I think it is 81. Naw i think it is 81. We kinda laughed it off but never said anything about it to him.
posted
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Light Blue is not Southern Europeans ……and Otzi possibly has “recent” North African ancestry. 1. He has unique motifs from Ethiopia and Pygmies(African) 2. He has brown eyes(African) 3. He does NOT carry SLC45A2 – the white gene(most African) 4. He is lactose tolerant(50% African) 5. He is long headed(Most African) 6. His MtDNA is K(albeit unique) but found on both sides the Medit Sea 7. His Y-DNA is G -169(?). rare. But found mostly in Ethiopia and Southern Arabia.
What! What! What!. That story was funny though
May be you should stop analyzing DNA and do comedy. That was good
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Oetzi turns out to be 51.9% "Southern" and 43.1% "Atlantic_Baltic" in the K=7 analysis, with noise levels of the other components. The salient point is that he seems to be lacking the "West Asian" component, unlike most Europeans, except Basques and Sardinians, who have:
Basques: 27.6% "Southern" and 69.5% "Atlantic_Baltic" Sardinians: 46.2% "Southern" and 52% "Atlantic_Baltic"
So, Oetzi does appear to be most Sardinian-like in this analysis, and indeed to be a little more "Southern" than extant Sardinians. This is consistent with Keller et al. (2012) which finds him to cluster with Sardinians and to be a bit more "southern" (in PCA space) than Sardinians. ]]]
[[[he appears to possess many of the same components (including Atlantic_Med, Caucasus, Southwest_Asian, and Northwest_African in non-trace quantities).]]
[[The three exceptions to this rule are the "West_Asian" component in K=7 and the "Gedrosia"/"North_European" components in K=12, which are conspicuous in their absence]]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
North African element as described by Henn. One-way migration. Perfect agreement with. Same popualtion with the highest amount of North african component.
You are full of it.
Lie and BS and you will be exposed. Stupid house-nixxx. ======
25 comments: Dienekes said... @ Edwardo Pinto,
You put the numbers in the wrong order in Dodecad Oracle.
posted
Now we have 2 x Henn, Behar, DNATribes and now Dienkess all in agreement. Same populations have high North African components. Some as much as 40%. According to Dienkess populations from the East migrated INTO Italy and Sardinia later on admixing with the indigenous North African component.
There is NO! Levantine or Northern European component at certain K values
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
According to Dienkess Otzi lacks the Levant/Middle East components.
Sardinians also lack the Green - Levant/Middle East components.
They are essentially 50/50 North African and "old" European. According to Dienkess Otzi was more "southerly". He! He! He!. Is that a code word?
====
Look. I don't have time for this. You are wasting my time.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Light Blue is not Southern Europeans ……and Otzi possibly has “recent” North African ancestry.
Based on what exactly?
quote:1. He has unique motifs from Ethiopia and Pygmies(African)
Which motifs and from what loci??
quote:2. He has brown eyes(African)
LMAO So brown eyes are unique to Africans now? I take it then that the vast majority of Europeans who don't have blue eyes are African admixed!
quote:3. He does NOT carry SLC45A2 – the white gene (most African)
Can you please cite this or are you making this up?
quote:4. He is lactose tolerant(50% African)
Didn't Beyoku just cite a source showing him to be lactose intolerant? Besides, lactose tolerance is adaptation to milk consumption and the trait varies from Europeans to East Asians having nothing to do with Africans.
quote:5. He is long headed(Most African)
Another typological feature. You realize many northwestern Europeans with no Africa ancestry at all are long-headed.
quote:6. His MtDNA is K(albeit unique) but found on both sides the Medit Sea
Yeah and K is found from Europe through Southwest Asia and India. Is his specific hg K even specific to Africa?
quote:7. His Y-DNA is G -169(?). rare. But found mostly in Ethiopia and Southern Arabia.
Actually there are higher frequencies in the Iranian plateau and Siberia though its highest frequencies are in the Caucasus. Again is his hg G specific to Africa or Europe as Beyoku's source cites?
quote:What! What! What!. That story was funny though
May be you should stop analyzing DNA and do comedy. That was good
Maybe YOU should stop analyzing DNA since you don't know what you're talking about the older dummy was a simile of YOU! LOLPosts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Xyyman is a certified cupcake. Anyone notice how how this turd scrambled ''near east'' off this Botique et al 2013 image and replaced it with ''North African''?
I haven't seen high ferquencies for U6 listed in inner Africa.
Too bad for you then. However, your own cited source, Maca-Meyer et al.'s report, does not support your unsubstantiated claim about U6 frequencies outside being higher than in Africa. If anything, it does the opposite.
quote:Senegal Kenya and Ethiopia are coastal that suggests maritime trade.
Trade with whom precisely?
U6 is fairly rare in Ethiopia's immediate neighbors in southern Arabia.And there is an ocean separating Senegal from the next landmass, and are we to take it that Senegalese would have gotten U6 from Americans? That you cannot see this shows your obsession with trying to force U6 to comply with your opinionated "non-African" origin for it.
quote: U has an inland spread in West Asia genrally. That may not prove origin but it suggests it.
Describe this "inland spread in west Asia" for me, with specific clade information to along with it.
And no, this silly point does not come close to suggesting either U's or U6's origin in "west Asia".
quote: If you've been up on U6 for so long so you have a world frequency comparision source?
This is irrelevant. What you need to be doing, is supporting your claim instead of misguidedly trying to turn the burden. Your own cited source discredits your claim.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Too bad for you then. However, your own cited source, Maca-Meyer et al.'s report, does not support your unsubstantiated claim about U6 frequencies outside being higher than in Africa. If anything, it does the opposite.
I didn't say that
The Algerian Mozabites have the highest frequencies of U6 in the world (except for a small sub-population in the Canary Islands}
ALGERIAN MOZABITES
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
Mozabites
. Portrait of a Mozabite man Stock Photo ID:42-24150866 Date Photographed:1949 Corbis Images
(detail) Mozibite family of women, in Africa, in the 1920s Stock Photo ID:IH155539 Date Photographed:ca. 1920s Corbis Images
So you didn't imply that U6 has its 'next highest" frequencies outside of Africa, with this line of questioning directed at another poster:
Did you forget to read my updated remark on the previous page? >
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I'm not sure after N African, then Canaries who is next highest U6.
I had made a previous remark to another poster not you.
Then I updated the remark to say I didn't know who had the next highest U6 frequencies after North Africans/Canaries
Of course you know that I said that but you want to keep going back to an earlier point in the discussion and recyle arguments for the sake of arguing only, move on
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
why aren't other Africans the next highest in these hgs?
I told you I don't know after North Africans/Canaries who has the highest frequencies of U6. You think it might be Africans other than NAs? maybe. But either you have data to support that or you don't
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
I have no idea what purpose your picture spams serve. [/qb]
They are not spams they are a fair sample of some of the Mozabite berbers in Algeria. Some of the pictures are from Doc Scientia some are my postings. The Mozabites in Algeria and some people of the Canaries are believed to have the highest frequencies of U6 in the world.
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Did you forget to read my updated remark on the previous page? >
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I'm not sure after N African, then Canaries who is next highest U6.
It is not a matter of forgetting. It is a matter of holding you accountable for your original post.
This post you are now presenting above, was not posted as an admission of an error, nor does it even resemble one. It was offered as a means to obscure the original claim, for which it appears you didn't/don't have a material justification.
quote:I had made a previous remark to another poster not you.
And so, I should ignore a questionable post just because it was not specifically addressed to me?
quote: Then I updated the remark to say I didn't know who had the next highest U6 frequencies after North Africans/Canaries
Where?
quote:Of course you know that I said that but you want to keep going back to an earlier point in the discussion and recyle arguments for the sake of arguing only, move on
So now you do telepathy? LOL
Too bad, I don't know that you said "that". Try another line of work.
quote: You think it might be Africans other than NAs? maybe. But either you have data to support that or you don't
Why do I need another data, when your own cited source, Maca-Meyer et al., does a good enough job of debunking you?
quote:They are not spams they are a fair sample of some of the Mozabite berbers in Algeria. Some of the pictures are from Doc Scientia some are my postings. The Mozabites in Algeria and some people of the Canaries are believed to have the highest frequencies of U6 in the world.
If they are not wasteful spams, what then is their purpose?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Did you forget to read my updated remark on the previous page? >
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I'm not sure after N African, then Canaries who is next highest U6.
It is not a matter of forgetting. It is a matter of holding you accountable for your original post.
This post you are now presenting above, was not posted as an admission of an error, nor does it even resemble one. It was offered as a means to obscure the original claim, for which it appears you didn't/don't have a material justification.
quote:I had made a previous remark to another poster not you.
And so, I should ignore a questionable post just because it was not specifically addressed to me?
quote: Then I updated the remark to say I didn't know who had the next highest U6 frequencies after North Africans/Canaries
Where?
once again read the bold text again where I say "I'm not sure" it means I don't know.
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Yaaawnnnn! Like I said. You are full of it Beyoku. ANYONE!! DNATRribes will soon confirm the same on Otzi.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
"I'm not sure" is not synonymous with "I don't know". You are merely downplaying the confidence of what you think you know; you are not retracting an original claim, by saying so.
In any event, as I noted, your so-called "revised" remark was not a show of admission of an error.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
here are some Siwa Berbers they are noted for high frequencies of U5 but low frequencies of U6 not all berbers are high in U6 They do have high frequencies of M1
on the Y side they also have low frequences of E-M81 often identified as a 'berber marker" but are silmiar to other berbers in some other haplogroup frequencies and have markers for over 10 other hgs
quote: ''Anyone notice how how this turd scrambled ''near east''.......
That's the point, scratch head..
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Xyyman is a certified cupcake. Anyone notice how how this turd scrambled ''near east'' off this Botique et al 2013 image and replaced it with ''North African''?
posted
That wasn't too demanding, was it now? Badly in need for U6 to be "non-African" in origin, when the material support for it is wanting, is what got you into trouble.
The only region outside of Africa with any considerable frequency of U6 is Iberia, which is right next to the Maghreb. Coincidence? Think not...just as its high distribution in the Canary Islands is not coincidental.
As Maca-Meyer's report indicates, the diversity seen in the Iberian clades, is attributable to different demographic episodes of gene flow from Africa. It is not a reflection of an autochthonous origin in an isolated group.
When samples are considered, as the Maca-Meyer report indicates, the frequencies in various African samples is comparable to those seen in individual Iberian samples.
U6's distribution is highest in Africa. Period! Still, frequency in of itself is not going to tell you much about U6's origin. Nucleotide information however, is a different story: the most basic U6 clades are found in the African continent. And here's a fun fact: U6 is not the only U clade implicated in an African origin.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Now we have 2 x Henn, Behar, DNATribes and now Dienkess all in agreement. Same populations have high North African components. Some as much as 40%. According to Dienkess populations from the East migrated INTO Italy and Sardinia later on admixing with the indigenous North African component.
There is NO! Levantine or Northern European component at certain K values
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Damn boy you dumb! Look at the image you are posting. See K=5, K=6, K=7, and K=8 IN all 4 of these instances The BEDOUIN and SAUDIS have MORE Light Blue that Moroccans and Mozabite. This compoenent comprises neawrly 100% of some of these Bedouins ancestry. How are Arabians MORE North African than actual North Africans. IN fact at these same K's Ethiopian Jews have just as much light blue as North Africans. Maybe the light blue is really Arabian or Ethiopian.?
@ K=9 A proper Arabian component differentiates. The region is left with a somewhat Generic Eurasian light blue cluster. You cannot base this as a Berber specific cluster because it is not based on any REAL Reality of actual migration of Berbers to these areas.
It would be like you explaining this Black component @ K=7 indicates Admixed Latinos migrating to a nd being absorbed into Southern Europe:
At K=10 the an Actual Berber cluster differentiates and is not found in many areas outside of Africa.
Here is a question for you xy. Please explain the Blue Component at K=4. What population peaks in this Blue component. Please expaline how this blue component is based on REAL reality and REAL migrations of humans from the peak population to the other areas where it is found.Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: That wasn't too demanding, was it now? Badly in need for U6 to be "non-African" in origin, when the material support for it is wanting, is what got you into trouble.
The only region outside of Africa with any considerable frequency of U6 is Iberia, which is right next to the Maghreb. Coincidence? Think not...just as its high distribution in the Canary Islands is not coincidental.
As Maca-Meyer's report indicates, the diversity seen in the Iberian clades, is attributable to different demographic episodes of gene flow from Africa. It is not a reflection of an autochthonous origin in an isolated group.
When samples are considered, as the Maca-Meyer report indicates, the frequencies in various African samples is comparable to those seen in individual Iberian samples.
U6's distribution is highest in Africa. Period! Still, frequency in of itself is not going to tell you much about U6's origin. Nucleotide information however, is a different story: the most basic U6 clades are found in the African continent. And here's a fun fact: U6 is not the only U clade implicated in an African origin.
Yes I agree U6 is found in highest frequencies in the Maghreb, Africa.
xyyman says the average Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian today are primarily African I assume you agree with this.
How about the average modern Egyptian? primarily African?
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
@ Beyoku I can see you slowly coming around. Good. You are asking the right questions. I happy to see you retracting some of your statements eg light blue being Southern European.
No we can proceed
I can see why you would think light blue is Arabian based upon the frequency in the Bedouin and Saudis but since the author never assigned the color we have to do it by a process of elimination. As you pointed out…logic.
As I said, I use hard data, genetic pattern and inferences as my primary source. “Documented” historical events is the last thing I take into account. Historians/Authors/Translators etc lie and/or embellish the truth. In short, white people lie. You are asking where is the historical documentation of what I am proposing. I am saying I rely on science first and what is written in history book lastly. Eg Henn clearly stated that the direction of migration was from Africa to Europe and not the other way around. How did she come to that conclusion? The FACT is Southern Europeans have shorter segment of North African DNA material compared to Northern Europeans. The history books cannot change that. That is a FACT. So continuing…
Each one of your questions can be easily answered. 1. This component comprises nearly 100% of some of these Bedouins ancestry. EXAGGERATION AND FALSE. MORE LIKE 65% 2. The BEDOUIN and SAUDIS have MORE Light Blue that Moroccans and Mozabite.
FALSE AGAIN. HOWEVER, THIS IS THE ANCESTRAL COMPONENT PER HENN. Ie They HAVE THE SAME ANCESTRAL GROUP. I AM SAYING AFRICA TO ARABIA. Reflected in PN2.
3. Ethiopian Jews have just as much light blue as North Africans. AGREED. Thus the question on origin of Jewry. Same pattern is seen in the Pakistani Jews. Remember DNATribes suggested Jewry may be African origin based on “documents’. Sources cited by DNATribes. You are the expert on documents.
4. So look at the chart again. Plus mathematically it is impossible for light blue to be non-African. You are the one who went to Community College(wink). WHAT! WHAT!
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posted
Remember as incredulous as it may sound. I am question the expulsion of “moors’ from Iberia. At least the magnitude. Why? The data do not lie. Similarly the extent of Islamic peoples in North Africa. Why? I don’t BS. I can back up everything I say with science proof.
ANYONE!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember as incredulous as it may sound. I am question the expulsion of “moors’ from Iberia. At least the magnitude. Why? The data do not lie. Similarly the extent of Islamic peoples in North Africa. Why? I don’t BS. I can back up everything I say with science proof.
ANYONE!!
At the height of Islamic Spain what was the proportion of Moors to people who were not Moors?
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I have no idea. BUT! according to a few studies they quoted ~80,000 Moors were expelled. However there is very little genetic trace of these new returnees in their "reported/documented" location in Tunisia and Morrocco. So...are the documents accurate?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I have no idea. BUT! according to a few studies they quoted ~80,000 Moors were expelled. However there is very little genetic trace of these new returnees in their "reported/documented" location in Tunisia and Morrocco. So...are the documents accurate?
What percentage is 80,000 of the total population at the time? During the Islamic period in Spain what was the difference between Moors and Moriscos who were both part of the expulsion? Also how many Jews were part of the expulsion? During the Islamic period in Spain what were native Christians who converted to Islam called ?
posted
Hey. That is your thing...Bottomline...there isn't much data to support the quantity expelled. Just as there is very little supporting evidence of Islamic peoples from the Arabia into North Africa during the Mohemedian period.
There are possibly admixed peoples in the North African coastal cities but we forget this.... J2-Turks
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Yes I agree U6 is found in highest frequencies in the Maghreb, Africa.
I was taking Africa as a whole.
quote: xyyman says the average Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian today are primarily African I assume you agree with this.
How about the average modern Egyptian? primarily African?
The ethnogenesis of Tamazight populations is African. All the uniparental markers that more approximate the distribution path of Tamazight-speaking populations are mainly African in origin. The language phylum which essentially makes the Imazighen what they are, is also entirely an African creation. Exchanging genes with migrants from locations nearby the continent does not change this. So, yes, I'd say modern Maghrebi populations are primarily African.
Immigration has perhaps modified the local Egyptian populations of the north more so than the southern areas, but that is not enough to render the Egyptian populace as anything but primarily African.
Using your standards, many populations in the globe will no longer be representative of their native continents, just on the mere account of genetic exchange with migrants from elsewhere. How sensible is that?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
How dare you to even ask Lioness. North Africans are genetically primarily African. In fact, they're so African that they cluster with Arabs (which, of course, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the notion that U6 and M1 originate in the Near East)!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Beyoku I can see you slowly coming around. Good. You are asking the right questions. I happy to see you retracting some of your statements eg light blue being Southern European.
Each one of your questions can be easily answered. 1. This component comprises nearly 100% of some of these Bedouins ancestry. EXAGGERATION AND FALSE. MORE LIKE 65% 2. The BEDOUIN and SAUDIS have MORE Light Blue that Moroccans and Mozabite.
FALSE AGAIN. HOWEVER, THIS IS THE ANCESTRAL COMPONENT PER HENN. Ie They HAVE THE SAME ANCESTRAL GROUP. I AM SAYING AFRICA TO ARABIA. Reflected in PN2.
See not only are you dumb. You are also blind. Let me explain to you how the program WORKS.
-Each one of these groupings is a population sample. IE "Ethiopian Jews" is a sample of Ethiopian Jews....sampled in Ethiopia or more likely right in Israel. -Each one of these LINES in the population group is a specific individual. Of course some of the groupings are larger as they have more individual samples - Yemenis vs Palestinians. -NOW, pay attention because this is the part your are ignoring. ALL individuals may not be the same. NOtice Palestinians are somewhat uniform. Look at the "Ethiopian" group. A 3rd of that group has more Ancestry assigned to the African clusters - These are Oromo. Moroccans, Saudis, and Yemenis all have an individual or two that have HALF of their ancestry assigned to the Sub Saharan clusters.
Now look at the Bedouin in K=5,6,7 and 8. The Mozabite and Moroccans have a high percentage of the Light blue...maybe 60-70 The Bedouin on the other hand are similar but contain INDIVIDUALS that carry the Light Blue component as nearly ALL of their Genome....It fills their ENTIRE BAR. See image:
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IF you still think that that North African carry the light blue higher than Bedouins let me enlarge the picture even more and change the color to black to show contrast:
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Notice There are some individuals what have ENTIRE GENOMES made up of one component. Not so much so in the case of North Africans who are more uniform. At K=9, where Bedouin differentiate into the light purple the homogenization of those certain individuals is even MORE apparent. Some of those same individuals are now completely ONE Sold bar. Going back to K=8, Not only Bedouin but Saudis and Yemeni Jews EXCEED the light blue component of both Mozabite and Moroccans (which i flood filed Black).
If you cannot understand this you are either Retarded, Blind, or disruptive Cointel-pro. How about this you type up a paragraph on what you think the component is and I will do the same. We can put both in one email and mail it off to Behar/Henn. Post the response here.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: BERBERS are predominantly ''African'' in admixture and remain an indigenous African group.
There's no point in twisting the truth. Current/Modern Berbers while generally predominantly African on the male side (Y-DNA) but are not predominantly African on the female side (mtDNA). The word predominately also hide the smaller but significant foreign Y-DNA among Berber people.
We can imagine very ancient conflict between native black Africans (original Berbers if you like) and migrants from other regions (Europe and Middle east) resulting in the reduction of Y-DNA portion from such regions while the female members were spared during such conflicts then admixed with native black North Africans (original berber). Then those people were to some level admixed further more with foreign conquerors and migrants through time. I don't have to cite all the foreign conquest of North Afica (persian, assyrian, ottoman, muslim, british, etc).
Modern Berbers seems like a nice mix of different people. People who think they are pure something must be out of their mind.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: BERBERS are predominantly ''African'' in admixture and remain an indigenous African group.
There's no point in twisting the truth. Current/Modern Berbers while generally predominantly African on the male side (Y-DNA) but are not predominantly African on the female side (mtDNA). The word predominately also hide the smaller but significant foreign Y-DNA among Berber people.
We can imagine very ancient conflict between native black Africans (original Berbers if you like) and migrants from other regions (Europe and Middle east) resulting in the reduction of Y-DNA portion from such regions while the female members were spared during such conflicts then admixed with native black North Africans (original berber). Then those people were to some level admixed further more with foreign conquerors and migrants through time. I don't have to cite all the foreign conquest of North Afica (persian, assyrian, ottoman, muslim, british, etc).
Modern Berbers seems like a nice mix of different people. People who think they are pure something must be out of their mind.
Too bad neither Y-DNA or mtDNA tells admixture like Nuclear DNA...But only ancestry.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QUOTE]Too bad neither Y-DNA or mtDNA tells admixture like Nuclear DNA...But only ancestry.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but *modern/current* Berbers seem like a nice mix of different people from different origin. That's for sure.
Obviously it's hard to gauge about ancient ancestry (ancient population structure) if that's what you meant because everything could have happened to Ancient populations in the far past (migration elsewhere after dessication, widespread mortality due to disease, conflict as mentioned above, conquest and admixture as related by history, migration and admixture, etc, etc).
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QUOTE]Too bad neither Y-DNA or mtDNA tells admixture like Nuclear DNA...But only ancestry.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but *modern/current* Berbers seem like a nice mix of different people from different origin. That's for sure.
Obviously it's hard to gauge about ancient ancestry (ancient population structure) if that's what you meant because everything could have happened to Ancient populations in the far past (migration elsewhere after dessication, widespread mortality due to disease, conflict as mentioned above, conquest and admixture as related by history, migration and admixture, etc, etc).
Its we were talking about two different thing. You were talking about Haplogroups while I was posting admixture.
Also it depends on what Berber group you're talking about. Yes most Berber groups are mixed, but there are some that are still predominantly African admixture wise.
And I also know most Berber tribes were pushed back from the coastal regions of North Africa by foreign invaders.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Yes I agree U6 is found in highest frequencies in the Maghreb, Africa.
I was taking Africa as a whole.
quote: xyyman says the average Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian today are primarily African I assume you agree with this.
How about the average modern Egyptian? primarily African?
The ethnogenesis of Tamazight populations is African. All the uniparental markers that more approximate the distribution path of Tamazight-speaking populations are mainly African in origin. The language phylum which essentially makes the Imazighen what they are, is also entirely an African creation. Exchanging genes with migrants from locations nearby the continent does not change this. So, yes, I'd say modern Maghrebi populations are primarily African.
Immigration has perhaps modified the local Egyptian populations of the north more so than the southern areas, but that is not enough to render the Egyptian populace as anything but primarily African.
Using your standards, many populations in the globe will no longer be representative of their native continents, just on the mere account of genetic exchange with migrants from elsewhere. How sensible is that?
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ 2008
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The population of the Maghreb is about 83+ million
Tamazight speakers 25-35 million
While Maghrebians who speak Arabic have more berber ancestry than the language they speak I don't think it is proper to use the term Tamazight as being synonymous with Maghrebians.
Now speaking of the berber component of the Maghreb in particular because they have E-M81 (E1b1b1b) in very high frequencies (except Siwa) and E-M81 which is believed to be 5,600 years that they are primarilry African.
If we were to go by the above chart looking at the bottom totals and add to that, that they categorize U6, M1 and L as African, North Africans are primarily African but similar to other Africans primarily in L. ( In Europe, U6 lineages have been consistently sampled only in the Iberian Peninsula.- Maca Meyer)
So while berbers are primarily African becasue of their frequencies of
H, Hv0, R0, J, T, U5, K, N1, N2, X
berbers are therefore are more similar to Eurasians than they are to other Africans because these haplogroups are found at higher frequencies outside Africa
all the while being primarily African at the same time according to this article
As xyyman has pointed out they have Ottoman Turkish elements. And they have more Arabian and Euroepan ancestry than other Africans. So much so that even though primarily African biologically they are more similar to Eurasians than other Africans. This is even excluding the largest berber group the Kabyle who are not coverevd in the chart who probably have even more Eurasian ancestry than other berbers.
As per berbers listed this chart some of these berber ethnic groups are small in number compared to the popualtion of the country they come from. Mozabites for instance number 265,000 population of Algeria 35,980,193 Mozabites are under 1% of the population of Algeria
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The arguments being made seems quite specious. Anybody can see that Berbers in generally tend to be mixed especially those in the northern areas close to or around the Mediterranean coast. How African or Eurasian would depend on what component one is measuring. In Y-chromosome they are predominantly/primarily African but mitochondria tell a different story and so do autosomes which vary from ethnicity to ethnicity.
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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IN fact at these same K's Ethiopian Jews have just as much light blue as North Africans. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Maybe the light blue is really Arabian or Ethiopian.?
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