quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] lol at the disgruntled mindset. You truly have a unhealthy brain. Twisting... tweaking... lying throughout live.
what are you talking about my last post on Moulay Ismail supported what you said -but you are too denfensive to realize that. Whatever I say you say the opposite. So if you say apples are red and then I also say apples are red you get confused. Then you start doubting if apples are red, it's funny.
You suggest that there is no evidence of a Vandal occupation of Tunisia. You say the Barbary captives and Iberian Moriscos had a significant genetic contribution to North Africa. Then what haplogroup frequencies in North Africa reflect this?
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] lol at the disgruntled mindset. You truly have a unhealthy brain. Twisting... tweaking... lying throughout live.
what are you talking about my last post on Moulay Ismail supported what you said -but you are too denfensive to realize that. Whatever I say you say the opposite. So if you say apples are red and then I also say apples are red you get confused. Then you start doubting if apples are red, it's funny.
You suggest that there is no evidence of a Vandal occupation of Tunisia. You say the Barbary captives and Iberian Moriscos had a significant genetic contribution to North Africa. Then what haplogroup frequencies in North Africa reflect this?
Stop lying, you twisted my post into something else. You can sit here acting as if you don't know. But it's for all to see. All you are good for is lying and altering people's posts. It hasn't been the first time you did this.
And I was probably the first if not the first to tell that Vandals still have offspring in the Maghreb, I had my chit-and-chat with the lunatic called Garrig aka Melchior7.
I have posted sources on Moriscos history one page back, you lunatic. There are still descendants of them in the Maghreb. You ironically so called "overlooked" that one, I don't think so. lol
See, if you want to know how many descendants of them probably are still in the Maghreb. All you need to do is look at the Hg sequences and frequencies of those Hg within the Maghreb. I mean, you are the "specialist" after all. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] lol at the disgruntled mindset. You truly have a unhealthy brain. Twisting... tweaking... lying throughout live.
what are you talking about my last post on Moulay Ismail supported what you said -but you are too denfensive to realize that. Whatever I say you say the opposite. So if you say apples are red and then I also say apples are red you get confused. Then you start doubting if apples are red, it's funny.
You suggest that there is no evidence of a Vandal occupation of Tunisia.
Stop lying, you twisted my post into something else. You can sit here acting as if you don't know. But it's for all to see.
see what?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
And I was probably the first if not the first to tell that Vandals still have offspring in the Maghreb,
be honest you made several posts replying to be in which you said there as no evidence of Vandals in North Africa in 429 AD.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
I have posted sources on Moriscos history one page back, you lunatic. There are still descendants of them in the Maghreb. You ironically so called "overlooked" that one, I don't think so. lol
I didn't overlook anything. You didn't even know that that didn't all go to North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: See, if you want to know how many descendants of them probably are still in the Maghreb. All you need to do is look at the Hg sequences and frequencies of those Hg within the Maghreb. I mean, you are the "specialist" after all. LOL
It's your claim that the expulsion of Moriscos had significant genetic impact on North Africa. Therefore it is on you to state which haplogroup frequencies that represents.
-but you are scared to, you want me to do it you are afraid to try to make a gentic case for it. Theerfore you can't be taken seriously
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It's actually you who can't be taken seriously, since you are clowning all the time.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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If you want t claim a person is lying about something then you need to quote that person and point out what statement they made you think is a lie and why you think it's a lie. You don't seem to be able to do that. You can't make an argument in your own words. All you do is put up references only, hoping they will argue for you. It's inability
Otherwise you are bullshitting
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: LOL at the above, the lies keep stacking by this moron.
where's the stack ?
you would make a terrible lawyer. Give me one example a quote of me lying
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If you want t claim a person is lying about something then you need to quote that person and point out what statement they made you think is a lie.
Otherwise you are bullshitting
You are still lying again.
Let me explain it to you once again.
You twisted my post. You altered my post. You lied about what I posted. Good grief.lol
And now you're even lying about that I engaged in disagreeing with Vandals being in the Maghreb or even having offspring there, while I never wrote any of such. lol At this delusional clown full of lies!
The documentary has two Ph.Ds speaking on enslaved Europeans and Sultan Mulay is mentioned as well. What also is mentioned is how some slaves copulated and had offspring.
If there was no one who payed ransom the european slave remained there for live. Many Dutch slaves were taken to Adrar Illich they stated!
The documentary is 9 minutes long, and you posted back only after 1 minute. So it's you who is bullshitting here. That's a fact, moron. You are simply pathetic! You have to be really dumb to act the way you just did, when it's for everyone to see. how you tweaked my post, because it pains your white / cacasoid superiority feelings. lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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When infact this is the entire sentence, you lying beast!
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
For some funny reason you snatched away this part:
quote:Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem,
Simply because it destroys your Eurocentric argument. Simply because you're a racist wearing a mask. Simply because you can't be objective. You are pathetic. You are a liar!
quote: "it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
--Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, (1987 - page 5.)
quote: "During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996).
During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia
--(Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
quote: It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse
--(Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
It's funny how they sometimes claim the close link between Maghreb and Spain, however they don't mention the finer details on these historic events. lol
--L. P. Harvey, Muslims in Spain, 1500 to 1614
quote: The memory of the loss of Granada was also still alive, and it had driven a large number of exiles, known as andalusiyyun or ' Andalusians' (those who came from al-Andalus), to Morocco.
--Mercedes García-Arenal Ahmad al-Mansur: the beginnings of modern Morocco (2009)
And yes, again. I do find it amusing we don't see this reflected in many genetic studies, such as the one you're addressing in this thread. What does this tell us? lol
quote: There is much disagreement about the size of the Morisco population. Henri Lapeyre estimates from his study of census reports and embarkation lists that approximately 275,000 Spanish Moriscos emigrated in the years 1609-14, out of a total of 300,000. [15] This conservative estimate is not consistent with many of the contemporary accounts that give a figure of 600,000. [16] Bearing in mind that the total population of Spain at that time was only about seven and a half million, this must have constituted a serious deficit in terms of productive manpower and tax revenue. In the Kingdom of Valencia, which lost a third of its population, nearly half the villages were deserted in 1638.
As if no info was given to this Eurocentric peice of sh-t called lyin'ass!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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When infact this is the entire sentence, you lying beast!
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
that's exactly what it says you have reading comprehension issues. It says Senegalese women were taken as slaves and copulated with European male slaves and they produced mulattoes on breeding farms.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
For some funny reason you snatched away this part:
[QUOTE]Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem,
Simply because it destroys your Eurocentric argument. Simply because you're a racist wearing a mask. Simply because you can't be objective. You are pathetic. You are a liar!
I left that part out because everybody knows Ottman Sultans in North Africa had harems of European women slaves. Many threads have been made mentioning that including one of my own here:
But European male slaves breeding with Senegalese female slaves, that is new to me and I never saw it posted before. Probably few people have ever heard of that.
Now tell me where the lie is.
I'm sorry I left the part out where the Turks, I mean Black men got to rape the white chicks. Forgive me next time I will only quote complete sentences. However the statement " Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem," is already recorded in the thared and I never denied that.
I've got whole threads on Euroepan harem girls slaves, you silly man
quote: There is much disagreement about the size of the Morisco population. Henri Lapeyre estimates from his study of census reports and embarkation lists that approximately 275,000 Spanish Moriscos emigrated in the years 1609-14, out of a total of 300,000. [15] This conservative estimate is not consistent with many of the contemporary accounts that give a figure of 600,000. [16] Bearing in mind that the total population of Spain at that time was only about seven and a half million, this must have constituted a serious deficit in terms of productive manpower and tax revenue. In the Kingdom of Valencia, which lost a third of its population, nearly half the villages were deserted in 1638.
When infact this is the entire sentence, you lying beast!
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
that's exactly what it says you have reading comprehension issues. It says Senegalese women were taken as slaves and copulated with European male slaves and they produced mulattoes on breeding farms.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
For some funny reason you snatched away this part:
[QUOTE]Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem,
Simply because it destroys your Eurocentric argument. Simply because you're a racist wearing a mask. Simply because you can't be objective. You are pathetic. You are a liar!
I left that part out because everybody knows Ottman Sultans in North Africa had harems of European women slaves. Many threads have been made mentioning that. But European male slaves breeding with Senegalese female slaves, that is new to me and I never saw it posted before. Probably few people have ever heard of that.
Now tell me where the lie is.
I'm sorry I left the part out where the Turks, I mean Black men got to rape the white chicks. Forgive me next time I will only quote complete sentences. However the statement " Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem," is already recorded in the thared and I never denied that.
You have yet to indicate what haplogoup contribution in North africa this represents
Good grief, you're now indirectly admitting your low scumbag behavior. lol
I pointed out where you lied, and deceived.lol
I posted the link where you twisted my post and the specific sentence. You left it out because you can't comprehend the text. That's why. lol
You took the sentence out of context and represented it as something else, a false assessment, a flae claim, if you can't comprehend this it has to be due to your low I.Q..
And yes, you're so sorry you left out that part...blah lol
It's nothing to be proud of or brag about, but we are evaluating history.
However, you had no problem with claiming a false assessment of white men as the rapist of Senegalese women. hmmmmm. Imposter black woman. lol
Stitching sh-t together because you can't see history for what it is. lol
Don't worry white boy, you had your share all over the globe, on every continent.
And if you don't know what Hg Spain represents it means you have no business here taking about this subject. Or even citing Henn.
quote:deportation on Sept. 22, 1609; their expulsion was completed some five years later. An estimated 300,000 Moriscos relocated mainly in Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco, where again they found themselves an alien element. They were assimilated after several generations, but something of their Spanish heritage has survived into modern times.
quote: There is much disagreement about the size of the Morisco population. Henri Lapeyre estimates from his study of census reports and embarkation lists that approximately 275,000 Spanish Moriscos emigrated in the years 1609-14, out of a total of 300,000. [15] This conservative estimate is not consistent with many of the contemporary accounts that give a figure of 600,000. [16] Bearing in mind that the total population of Spain at that time was only about seven and a half million, this must have constituted a serious deficit in terms of productive manpower and tax revenue. In the Kingdom of Valencia, which lost a third of its population, nearly half the villages were deserted in 1638.
^^^ notice how he leaves out information about where all the places these Morscos went because this one article doesn't cover that.
Then he accuses me of leaving out information out of history.
Yet I have whole threads on European slave harem girls that he lusts after
LOL hilarious dumb is what you are, you ran out of arguments so all that is left is act like a moron. Although you really are one. See, it's your own sarcasm which exposes you constantly.lol
I did not leave out any info. I cited the enter sentence and paragraph. The point of this column is to explain that there were Moriscos who moved into the Maghreb. You can't deal with these facts, so you are now looking for excuses. Because your Eurocentric ass has been kind hard. lol
However you play it, the markers are there. And it's not from some hypothetical Epipaleolithic clownish nonsense. This is why you or any of you dullards can't represent fossil remains of you wandering cacasoids. Simply because they don't exist!
Now, you took a sentence altered it in such way and presented it as something else. This means you lied. Do this in the courthouse and see how the jury will respond.
It's your low I.Q. which permits you to understand this. Such a pity.SMH
-- Anwar G. Chejne Islam and the West: The Moriscos, a Cultural and Social History(1993)
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The depraved sultan and his forgotten white slaves Nicholas Shakespeare reviews White Gold: the Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow by Giles Milton
One October evening in 1738, the population of Penryn abandoned their village to welcome home a man with a great long beard and sun-blackened face. Not even his parents recognised Thomas Pellow, who had been seized by Barbary corsairs when he was 11 and taken to Morocco, where he spent 23 years as a slave of Mulay Ismail, a sultan of story-book depravity.
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
This is interesting. Ottomans sultans in North Africa had European white women slaves in their harems. We knew that I have whole threads on that topic. (Morocc however never came under Ottoman dominance, was not one of the Barbary States but they did have slaves) But there were many times more male captives then women. But the part about white European slave men sent to breeding farms with Senegalese women and produce mulattoes. That's a new one on me. The offspring would probably have been more sub saharan than most North Africans. How common this was I have no idea I don't know how they would be identified at this point living in North Africa. Maybe they got called berbers ?
wiki:
Over 150,000 men from sub-Saharan Africa served in his elite Black Guard. By the time of Ismail's death, the guard had grown tenfold, the largest in Moroccan history.
perhaps this might account for some of the L linegages in modern Morrocans.
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The depraved sultan and his forgotten white slaves Nicholas Shakespeare reviews White Gold: the Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow by Giles Milton
One October evening in 1738, the population of Penryn abandoned their village to welcome home a man with a great long beard and sun-blackened face. Not even his parents recognised Thomas Pellow, who had been seized by Barbary corsairs when he was 11 and taken to Morocco, where he spent 23 years as a slave of Mulay Ismail, a sultan of story-book depravity.
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
This is interesting. Ottomans sultans in North Africa had European white women slaves in their harems. We knew that I have whole threads on that topic. But there were many times more male captives then women. But the part about white European slave men sent to breeding farms with Senegalese women and produce mulattoes. That's a new one on me. The offspring would probably have been more sub saharan than most North Africans I don't know how they would be identified at this point living in North Africa. Maybe they got called berbers ?
wiki:
Over 150,000 men from sub-Saharan Africa served in his elite Black Guard. By the time of Ismail's death, the guard had grown tenfold, the largest in Moroccan history.
perhaps this might account for some of the L linegages in modern Morrocans.
What is interesting is that Moriscos moved into the Maghreb, and have remained there!
What is also interesting is that the Ottoman took females from particular places, which matches with mt-DNA found in modern Maghreb populations. Such irony. It makes you wonder...
The large L lineages are due to the remains found in fossil records. Showing to cluster with other African remains.
I hope we don't have to recover this again. But I wouldn't be surprised since you appear to be senile.
Although slavery is wrong, it happend and we are covering this subject. Your racist Eurocentric ass can't handle the outcome of certain expects so you become delusional and childish. And cover lies with lies.
quote: "Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
-- Deborah Anne Kapchan Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace. Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
quote:Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago.
Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa.
The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans.
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
quote: There is much disagreement about the size of the Morisco population. Henri Lapeyre estimates from his study of census reports and embarkation lists that approximately 275,000 Spanish Moriscos emigrated in the years 1609-14, out of a total of 300,000. [15] This conservative estimate is not consistent with many of the contemporary accounts that give a figure of 600,000. [16] Bearing in mind that the total population of Spain at that time was only about seven and a half million, this must have constituted a serious deficit in terms of productive manpower and tax revenue. In the Kingdom of Valencia, which lost a third of its population, nearly half the villages were deserted in 1638.
^^^ notice how he leaves out information about where all the places these Morscos went because this one article doesn't cover that.
Then he accuses me of leaving out information out of history.
Yet I have whole threads on European slave harem girls that he lusts after
LOL hilarious dumb is what you are, you ran out of arguments so all that is left is act like a moron. Although you really are one. See, it's your own sarcasm which exposes you constantly.lol
I did not leave out any info. I cited the enter sentence and paragraph. The point of this column is to explain that there were Moriscos who moved into the Maghreb. You can't deal with these facts, so you are now looking for excuses. Because your Eurocentric ass has been kind hard. lol
You quote numbers and say your point was " to explain that there were Moriscos who moved into the Maghreb." Yet you are still ignorant to the fact that large segments of the numbers you quote did not migrate to the Maghreb. You don't know that because the article doesn't cover that detail
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: However you play it, the markers are there.
If you are to afraid to estimate what the markers are there is no point in talking about this you arer too mouse like
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: And it's not from some hypothetical Epipaleolithic clownish nonsense. This is why you or any of you dullards can't represent fossil remains of you wandering cacasoids. Simply because they don't exist!
when you say dullards to you include Brenna Henn or do you agree with her analysis?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Now, you took a sentence altered it in such way and presented it as something else. This means you lied. Do this in the courthouse and see how the jury will respond.
No I didn't I just left out the part about European females and was pointing out the part about European males because I had made whole threads about European slave harem girls but this thing about Euroepan slave men and Senegalese women producing mulattoes was new.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
What is also interesting is that the Ottoman took females from particular places, which matches with mt-DNA found in modern Maghreb populations. Such irony. It makes you wonder...
without mentioning what those matches might be you have no case
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posted
The post above is evident that you are dumb! And I do have a case, it's just that you don't know what this is about.
And yes, you did leave out the part about European females, then tweaked it in such way, to present it different, you liar. You are trying to save face! But you are known for lying. And so, you did it too this time.
And nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. It's something you made up, lied about. And at the same time, you've claimed by the frame of words that Senegalese (black men) "raped" white women. So, there is more prove that you are a euronut, who can't handle historical accuracies.
Your defends is flaunt you are a racist flip flopper.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^^^^ you are such a coward any other poster if making such a claim they would provide their explanation as to which haplogroup is accossiated with what what origin. Must I do the work for you?
Your chart indicates R1b3* has the predominant Iberian hap. It represents only a small percenatge in NA as shown in red. Look in Tunisia it's more than Morocco. Is that explained primarily by the expulsion of Moriscos? I'm not sure about that Why do you fight me? I'm reasonable, open to suggestions (but you need to show and prove)
The largest contribution shown for Saharawi, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisa is E3b2 aka E-M81 a young haplgroup dated to 5,600 years ago (light bluish green)
Tunisia is about 1/4 hap J, (dark green) - Arabian origin
Notice how E3b2 aka E-M81 is present in some parts of Iberia perhaps having arrived there from the Isamic invasion. light bluish green in Andulusia , Portugal, etc the Western half Spain.
I would like to see that compared to E3b2 in the Sahel
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^ you are such a coward any other poster if making such a claim they would provide their explanation as to which haplogroup is accossiated with what what origin. Must I do the work for you?
Your chart indicates R1b3* has the predominant Iberian hap. It represents only a small percenatge in NA as shown in red. Look in Tunisia it's more than Morocco. Is that explained primarily by the expulsion of Moriscos? I'm not sure about that Why do you fight me? I'm reasonable, open to suggestions (but you need to show and prove)
The largest contribution shown for Saharawi, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisa is E3b2 aka E-M81 a young haplgroup dated to 5,600 years ago (light bluish green)
Tunisia is about 1/4 hap J, (dark green) - Arabian origin
Notice how E3b2 aka E-M81 is present in some parts of Iberia perhaps having arrived there from the Isamic invasion. light bluish green in Andulusia , Portugal, etc the Western half Spain.
I would like to see that compared to E3b2 in the Sahel
I gave you images, so your dullard brain can grasp it better. But even then.
I've cited multiple sources, but even then?
And I don't have to notice anything, I already posted this.
And nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. It's something you made up, lied about.
what about here where it said that? >
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: infact this is the entire sentence, you lying beast!
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
you are lying. You are saying nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. yet the article says white European slave men were sent to breed with Senegalese slave women to produce mulattoes. If you don't like the word " produce" how about "breed" and" mate" with, resulting in mulattoes. I have to hand it to you . You uncovered something interetsing here. The problem now is that you are now lying about it, trying to cover it up. Your emotions have taken hold.
The problem is when you throw a boomerang at the lioness and I duck my head if your not quick enough to catch it it winds up hitting you in the back of the head. maybe your little friend will arrive and try to help you
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you copy a lot of stuff yet you have trouble interpreting the data to make a specific point that the data alone does not make. try harder
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And nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. It's something you made up, lied about.
what about here where it said that? >
Or perhaps you don't know hat a sentence is. This could indicate the problem.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: infact this is the entire sentence, you lying beast!
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
you are lying. You are saying nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. yet the article says white European slave men were sent to breed with Senegalese slave women to produce mulattoes. If you don't like the word " produce" how about "breed" and" mate" with, resulting in mulattoes. I have to hand it to you . You uncovered something interetsing here. The problem now is that you are now lying about it, trying to cover it up. Your emotions have taken hold.
The problem is when you throw a boomerang at the lioness and I duck my head if your not quick enough to catch it it winds up hitting you in the back of the head. maybe your little friend will arrive and try to help you
This is the sentence:
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
You've altered this, took away the first part of the sentence. Where it speaks of the white women. And replaced it with European males. Became your Eurocentric lying ass can't handle actual historical facts.
So you copied something else above it, to make it appear as if the original text speak different about a historical event you seem to have difficulty with. lol
It's plain and simple you're a liar. And this is what you are known for doing, imposter black woman.
You have to show yet the full sentence of what you're imaging with your Eurocentric lying ass. But since you have nothing, you do what you do best, being a true moron and spam nonsense. And you truly think you won a debate.
You've ducked got up and bounced your head hard, this is why you are as stupid as you are.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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See, I post facts, whereas you love to hypotheses about unmeaningful and wishful things, which you haven't proven until now. Your whole wandering caucausian history is based on eugenic fantasies. And the constant picture spamming is hilarious too, always showing folks with foreign ancestry, trying to make them pass off as the original indigenous population. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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See, I post facts, whereas you love to hypotheses about unmeaningful and wishful things, which you haven't proven until now. Your whole wandering caucausian history is based on eugenic fantasies. And the constant picture spamming is hilarious too, always showing folks with foreign ancestry, trying to make them pass off as the original indigenous population. [/QB]
I think you have the low I.Q. since you say to me ask me to explain it.
You can't even articulate a question.
If you ever entered a debate and charts and tables weren't allowed you would lose quickly
data is not an argument ot theory
you have to use the data to make an argument or theorize or ask a specific question of somebody. "Explain this" is not enough. You have to state why some data is a problem.
It's not even clear if you agree with the afrocentic position of Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr, Winters that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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See, I post facts, whereas you love to hypotheses about unmeaningful and wishful things, which you haven't proven until now. Your whole wandering caucausian history is based on eugenic fantasies. And the constant picture spamming is hilarious too, always showing folks with foreign ancestry, trying to make them pass off as the original indigenous population.
I think you have the low I.Q. since you say to me ask me to explain it.
You can't even articulate a question.
If you ever entered a debate and charts and tables weren't allowed you would lose quickly
data is not an argument ot theory
you have to use the data to make an argument or theorize. [/QB]
I did post data. lol
You haven't been able to post fossil records. This alone should make you STFU about your wandering cacasoids in Africa.
I posted genetics tables, maps and historic events, backed up by multiple sources.
You can now sit here on your Eurocentric lying ass, denying all of this. But it only makes you look stupid.
And even worse it, your fake ass tried to make my post appear as if the text spoke different. This how pathetic you truly are.
This is one sentence:
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
And this is another sentence:
quote: One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
These are two diffenent sentences you dullard!
And in fact I use tables and charts to finish euronuts like you quickly. I have no time to go back-and-forth for days.
I slice and dice quick. But if you trully knew what you're talking about you would have grasped it by now.
Multiple sources have been cited stating Moriscos moved to the Magreb, but no. This dullard says it's not true!SMH
Genetic position of Andalusians from Huelva in relation to other European and North African populations: a study based on GM and KM allotypes.
Calderón R, Ambrosio B, Guitard E, González-Martín A, Aresti U, Dugoujon JM.
Source
Departamento de Zoología y Antropología Física, Facultad de Biología, Universidad Complutense, 28040 Madrid, Spain.
Abstract An understanding of population relationships in the Mediterranean region is crucial to the reconstruction of recent human evolution. Andalusia, the most southern region of Spain, has been continuously and densely occupied since ancient times and has a rich history of contacts with many different Mediterranean populations. Thus, to understand the Mediterranean peopling process, investigators should analyze the population relationships between the Iberian peninsula and northern Africa based on an assessment of genetic diversity that takes Andalusia into consideration. The aim of this study was to address the extent of genetic variation in the Iberian peninsula between its geographic extremes (Huelva and the Basque area) and to explain the intensity of the phylogenetic relationships between Andalusians and other neighboring populations, such as those from North Africa. We present, for the first time, results on allotype markers (GM and KM) of human immunoglobulins in the Andalusian population from Huelva. The most frequent GM haplotypes in Andalusia correspond to those that are also the most common in Europe. A sub-Saharan haplotype was found at a relatively high frequency compared to other Iberian samples, and a North Asian marker did not reach polymorphic frequencies in the study sample. A hierarchical cluster analysis based on the first two principal components (94.1% of the total genetic variance) revealed an interesting geographic structure for the 49 populations selected from the literature. The Huelva sample showed a central position in the multivariate space--despite being geographically located at one of the extremes of the Mediterranean basin--and clustered with most Western European populations. Western Europe and Eastern Europe (the latter group paradoxically including Italy and the major islands of the western Mediterranean) were differentiated. North African populations were grouped in two clusters that did not separate either Arabs and Berbers or their present-day countries. Analysis of immunoglobulin allotype markers shows that gene flow among human populations should generally be interpreted in terms of complex patterns, with the observed frequencies being the consequence of the entire genetic and demographic history of the population. Single historical events rarely determine gene frequencies in large human populations. Analysis of the GM system has shown that the Andalusian population from Huelva, as a result of its complex history, is not simply an outstanding part of the Mediterranean world but rather the genetic center of gravity of that world.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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See, I post facts, whereas you love to hypotheses about unmeaningful and wishful things, which you haven't proven until now. Your whole wandering caucausian history is based on eugenic fantasies. And the constant picture spamming is hilarious too, always showing folks with foreign ancestry, trying to make them pass off as the original indigenous population.
I think you have the low I.Q. since you say to me ask me to explain it.
You can't even articulate a question.
If you ever entered a debate and charts and tables weren't allowed you would lose quickly
data is not an argument ot theory
you have to use the data to make an argument or theorize or ask a specific question of somebody. "Explain this" is not enough. You have to state why some data is a problem.
It's not even clear if you agree with the afrocentic position of Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr, Winters that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin. [/QB]
The reason why you posted that nonsense above is because you've got your head stuck in your rectum. I have posted on linguistics, genetics and physical anthropology. I even did some picture spamming along to show what I mean, hair texture and facial traits etc... The Tamazight are indigenous, but have been effected by foreign people throughout recent time. As history testifies. This effect differs from place to place. Is this clear enough?
And from what read Cheikh Anta Diop stated that the Tamazight are Africans, and that this would show off more and more in the future. From what I know he stated that their behavior (nature) is similar to that of other Africans.
You know, the Moriscos did not even exist. You're right. It was all an imagination.
Know your history: Spain’s Forgotten Muslims – The Expulsion of the Moriscos
Final Expulsion
quote: Despite the best efforts of the Moriscos to conceal their practice of Islam, the Christian kings suspected them of continued adherence to Islam. In 1609, over 100 years after the Muslims went into hiding, King Phillip of Spain signed an edict expelling all Moriscos from Spain. They were given only 3 days to completely pack up and board ships destined for North Africa or the Ottoman Empire.
[...]
By 1614 every last Morisco was gone, and Islam disappeared from the Iberian Peninsula. Going from over 500,000 people to zero in 100 years can only be described as a genocide. Indeed, the Portuguese Dominican monk, Damian Fonseca, referred to the expulsion as an “agreeable Holocaust”. The effects on Spain were grave. Its economy suffered greatly, as a large part of the labor force was gone, and tax revenues dropped. In North Africa, Muslim rulers attempted to provide for the hundreds of thousands of refugees, but in many cases, were unable to do much to help them. The Moriscos of North Africa spent centuries trying to assimilate into society, but still kept their unique Andalusian identity.
To this day, neighborhoods in major North African cities boast of their Morisco identities and keep alive the memory of Muslim Spain’s glorious past. They remind us of the illustrious history of the Iberian Peninsula, as well the tragic story of their expulsion from their homes in the one of the greatest genocides Europe has ever seen.
This makes you wonder, what you've been picture spamming all along doesn't?
In fact this topic was addressed already, and of course you came in with childish stupid remarks. And of course delusional picture spam as you always do. Typical euronut behavior, simply pathetic.
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers. One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
This is one sentence:
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
And this is another sentence:
quote: One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
These are two diffenent sentences you dullard!
So what ? It's two sentences so what?
Thosands of Moriscos were expelled to North Africa but you are very dishonest in purposly leaving out the fact that many other thouands who were expelled form Spain did not. You do this to try to inflate the numbers how went into North Africa by implictation and leaving out facts. You did a simaliar scam with the white slaves. Your source said it was 1 million which is a rough estimate considered high by some scholars. But then you later said a few millon. Lies
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers. One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
This is one sentence:
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
And this is another sentence:
quote: One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
These are two diffenent sentences you dullard!
So what ? It's two sentences so what?
Thosands of Moriscos were expelled to North Africa but you are very dishonest in purposly leaving out the fact that many other thouands who were expelled form Spain did not. You do this to try to inflate the numbers how went into North Africa by implictation and leaving out facts. You did a simaliar scam with the white slaves. Your source said it was 1 million which is a rough estimate considered high by some scholars. But then you later said a few millon. Lies
that's 1 million within a couple of centuries. Not the 1000 years of Islamic history.
What scholar says it is too high LYING_ SS.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It's actually you who can't be taken seriously, since you are clowning all the time.
I really miss being entertained by jokers on this site like LYIN-SS so I'm just checking in.
Thanks for your posts patrol I think I had read that hundreds of thousand of Andalusians settled back in Morocco and especially in the Riff region. Hmmm...Wonder what happened to them.
Received your links too, but your mailbox is full.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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See, I post facts, whereas you love to hypotheses about unmeaningful and wishful things, which you haven't proven until now. Your whole wandering caucausian history is based on eugenic fantasies. And the constant picture spamming is hilarious too, always showing folks with foreign ancestry, trying to make them pass off as the original indigenous population.
I think you have the low I.Q. since you say to me ask me to explain it.
You can't even articulate a question.
If you ever entered a debate and charts and tables weren't allowed you would lose quickly
data is not an argument ot theory
you have to use the data to make an argument or theorize or ask a specific question of somebody. "Explain this" is not enough. You have to state why some data is a problem.
It's not even clear if you agree with the afrocentic position of Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr, Winters that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin. [/QB]
Seems like your getting testy in your old age LYIN _NUT. Or is somebody else using your profile. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: The post above is evident that you are dumb! And I do have a case, it's just that you don't know what this is about.
And yes, you did leave out the part about European females, then tweaked it in such way, to present it different, you liar. You are trying to save face! But you are known for lying. And so, you did it too this time.
And nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. It's something you made up, lied about. And at the same time, you've claimed by the frame of words that Senegalese (black men) "raped" white women. So, there is more prove that you are a euronut, who can't handle historical accuracies.
Your defends is flaunt you are a racist flip flopper.
HE /SHE is definitely a racist. Like most of them she can't stand the fact that the original predominate Moors were "black-skinned" people of Masmuda Zanata stock that frightened away horses of Syrians with their color, and had a lot of white slaves. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The depraved sultan and his forgotten white slaves Nicholas Shakespeare reviews White Gold: the Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow by Giles Milton
One October evening in 1738, the population of Penryn abandoned their village to welcome home a man with a great long beard and sun-blackened face. Not even his parents recognised Thomas Pellow, who had been seized by Barbary corsairs when he was 11 and taken to Morocco, where he spent 23 years as a slave of Mulay Ismail, a sultan of story-book depravity.
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
This is interesting. Ottomans sultans in North Africa had European white women slaves in their harems. We knew that I have whole threads on that topic. (Morocc however never came under Ottoman dominance, was not one of the Barbary States but they did have slaves) But there were many times more male captives then women. But the part about white European slave men sent to breeding farms with Senegalese women and produce mulattoes. That's a new one on me. The offspring would probably have been more sub saharan than most North Africans. How common this was I have no idea I don't know how they would be identified at this point living in North Africa. Maybe they got called berbers ?
wiki:
Over 150,000 men from sub-Saharan Africa served in his elite Black Guard. By the time of Ismail's death, the guard had grown tenfold, the largest in Moroccan history.
perhaps this might account for some of the L linegages in modern Morrocans.
Racist nuts also can't stand the fact that Haratin have always lived in Morocco and North Africa and the Mulay Ismail was the son of a Negro woman and "near black" in color.
Dominic Busnot sent by Louis the IVth on a mission to free the French SLAVES there, saw the mother of the ruler Mulay Ismail whom he describes as a "pure black" slave (Meakin, 1899, Empire of Morocco, p. 147)
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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And nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. It's something you made up, lied about.
what about here where it said that? >
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: infact this is the entire sentence, you lying beast!
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
you are lying. You are saying nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. yet the article says white European slave men were sent to breed with Senegalese slave women to produce mulattoes. If you don't like the word " produce" how about "breed" and" mate" with, resulting in mulattoes. I have to hand it to you . You uncovered something interetsing here. The problem now is that you are now lying about it, trying to cover it up. Your emotions have taken hold.
The problem is when you throw a boomerang at the lioness and I duck my head if your not quick enough to catch it it winds up hitting you in the back of the head. maybe your little friend will arrive and try to help you
And your problem is that you are trying to change the subject of the fact that the original Moors in Spain i.e. black people known as Masmuda and who were "the Berbers" of that era and who were the largest number of the Moors in early Spain for several centuries brought in slaves from all over Eurasia.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
No! That is where you and a few others are missing the boat.
I base my discussion ONLY on what was published in the study/report. I have NEVER been to these countries so I cannot honestly say what they look like and who was sampled and should of been sampled. I am coming in blind...without prejudice. The conlusions drawn are based upon the published data from DNATribes, Behar, Henn etc. THEY did the sampling. I assume they did due deligence and vetted these people before sampling. Yes I have seen representations on TV, NG etc of North Africans.
I have seen Morrocans close to where I live. I have seen Tunsians play soccer on TV. But I have also seen the French team. I have no idea what the "lumpen proletariat"/fellah looks like in Algeria. BTW I have read Fanon. LOL!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You go into these various areas in the Mid east or North Africa circle some hgs in small popualtions and declare the whole region African. At least start with a whole country before you make these sweeping emotion based statements [.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
On what the indigenous people look like, I rely on very old photos and books describing what these people look like. Back then Europeans had no interest in claiming North Africa...the land.
TP is a good source for such information on authentic photos.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers. One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
This is one sentence:
quote: Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
And this is another sentence:
quote: One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
These are two diffenent sentences you dullard!
So what ? It's two sentences so what?
Thosands of Moriscos were expelled to North Africa but you are very dishonest in purposly leaving out the fact that many other thouands who were expelled form Spain did not. You do this to try to inflate the numbers how went into North Africa by implictation and leaving out facts. You did a simaliar scam with the white slaves. Your source said it was 1 million which is a rough estimate considered high by some scholars. But then you later said a few millon. Lies
that's 1 million within a couple of centuries. Not the 1000 years of Islamic history.
What scholar says it is too high LYING_ SS.
Yes, if you sum them all up, you get the genetic frequency of mtDNA and low imput of Y-DNA.
The Dutch scholar, I posted said. 1 to 1.2 mil you may not understand it, but you certainly can see the images and places.
I bumped into another one. This one appears to be from a Nordic channel. It has nothing to do with pride or brag or even being ashamed. It has to do with history the way it happened. This is what troubles euronuts.
White Slavery-Millions Europeans were kidnapped and enslaved by Muslims in North Africa
I read somewhere in a source once, that Vikings took slaves to Northwest Africa as well. Guess who those were? Saami. Yes, Saami.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
The depraved sultan and his forgotten white slaves Nicholas Shakespeare reviews White Gold: the Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow by Giles Milton
One October evening in 1738, the population of Penryn abandoned their village to welcome home a man with a great long beard and sun-blackened face. Not even his parents recognised Thomas Pellow, who had been seized by Barbary corsairs when he was 11 and taken to Morocco, where he spent 23 years as a slave of Mulay Ismail, a sultan of story-book depravity.
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
This is interesting. Ottomans sultans in North Africa had European white women slaves in their harems. We knew that I have whole threads on that topic. (Morocc however never came under Ottoman dominance, was not one of the Barbary States but they did have slaves) But there were many times more male captives then women. But the part about white European slave men sent to breeding farms with Senegalese women and produce mulattoes. That's a new one on me. The offspring would probably have been more sub saharan than most North Africans. How common this was I have no idea I don't know how they would be identified at this point living in North Africa. Maybe they got called berbers ?
wiki:
Over 150,000 men from sub-Saharan Africa served in his elite Black Guard. By the time of Ismail's death, the guard had grown tenfold, the largest in Moroccan history.
perhaps this might account for some of the L linegages in modern Morrocans.
Racist nuts also can't stand the fact that Haratin have always lived in Morocco and North Africa and the Mulay Ismail was the son of a Negro woman and "near black" in color.
Dominic Busnot sent by Louis the IVth on a mission to free the French SLAVES there, saw the mother of the ruler Mulay Ismail whom he describes as a "pure black" slave (Meakin, 1899, Empire of Morocco, p. 147)
Yes, I've heard that argument before. But we have physical anthropology on fossils which disputes them and backs up what you state.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: The post above is evident that you are dumb! And I do have a case, it's just that you don't know what this is about.
And yes, you did leave out the part about European females, then tweaked it in such way, to present it different, you liar. You are trying to save face! But you are known for lying. And so, you did it too this time.
And nowhere in that article was stated the European men "produced" offspring. It's something you made up, lied about. And at the same time, you've claimed by the frame of words that Senegalese (black men) "raped" white women. So, there is more prove that you are a euronut, who can't handle historical accuracies.
Your defends is flaunt you are a racist flip flopper.
HE /SHE is definitely a racist. Like most of them she can't stand the fact that the original predominate Moors were "black-skinned" people of Masmuda Zanata stock that frightened away horses of Syrians with their color, and had a lot of white slaves.
That's true, but another fact is that Moriscos covertos moved to the Maghreb after the expulsion and still have descendants at the Maghreb. Lyin'ass is ignoring this fact! So the asshole will ask stupid questions like how many and prove by genetics how many. The genetic sequences of Spain found in the Maghreb speak their own story....there really is no further explanation needed.
The whole picture spam b.s. by that individual on the Maghreb is being destroyed here.
quote: There is an immense bibliography on the Moriscos, so I can only speak here about two authors. First, Gregorio Maran ̃o ́n, whose Expulsion and Diaspora of the Spanish Moriscos was discovered and published only two decades after his death. Maran ̃o ́n analyses the economic, political, religious, social and cultural causes that contributed to the expulsion of 300,000 people, many of them women, children, and old people; in some parts of the country this amounted to the loss of one third of the population.
[...]
The vast majority of expelled Spaniards had to settle for a new life in the Muslim territories of North Africa. Others managed to negotiate with the Ottoman authorities of eastern Europe, in order to migrate to the Balkans. A decade later an agent of the English government in Morocco reported that he found Moriscos there who ‘complain bitterly of their cruel exile, and desire deeply to return under Christian rule’. The e ́migre ́s from Hornachos settled in what had been the desert town of Rabat in Morocco, and gave it a new life; others settled in Sale ́, just across the river from Rabat.
[...]
The same thing happened in the other cities of Morocco and Tunisia to which the Moriscos emigrated, and where they tried to conserve their religious customs, the style of their houses, their cultural traditions and their music, with the Andalus ́ıes guitar and Andalusian traditional songs still surviving.
Cultural Memories of the Expulsion of the Moriscos José M.
González García
European Review / Volume 16 / Issue 01 / February 2008, pp 91 100 DOI: 10.1017/S1062798708000100, Published online: 25 February 2008
quote: Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.
[...]
Although most post-Last Glacial Maximum recolonization events have a typically northward signature,30, 31 our J1e results provide an example of a southward spread during the early Holocene. Although J1e is one of the most frequent haplogroups in the region, haplogroup E-M123 also shows its highest frequency and haplotype diversity in regions of the Fertile Crescent, decreasing toward the Arabian Peninsula.
--Jacques Chiaroni et al. The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
dana contradicted Troll patrol a number of times but neither of them is smart enough to realize it
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I read somewhere in a source once, that Vikings took slaves to Northwest Africa as well. Guess who those were? Saami. Yes, Saami. [/QB]
The age of U5 is estimated at 30-50,000 years. Approximately 11% of total Europeans and 10% of European-Americans are in haplogroup U5.
U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia,[ Sweden, France and Spain. Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe ~10kya.
Haplogroup U5 is found also in small frequencies and at much lower diversity in the Near East and parts of northern Africa (Siwa and Djerba) areas with sizable U6 concentrations), suggesting back-migration of people from Europe to the south
posted
For the dumbass above. You've just debunked yourself! And in fact Dana and I are saying the same. You aren't smart enough to realize this, that paper has been covered a long time ago, look who else fits the picture of U5.
Technically proto Berber should follow the same trails as the Saami language, if that hypothetical story was suppose to be true. However, proto Berbers clusters with Libyco-Chadic. Also, the limb ratio and body portions auld be similar. However, the fossils do not, in fact the fossils from the time stamp show affinities with other African remains, which happen to be Tropical Adapted, while Nordic folks live and have lived in a Arctic area for a mega long time.
Btw, paper trail shows ancestry not of admixture.
quote: It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse
--(Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
quote: " During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996).
During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia
--(Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
quote: U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic.
[...]
For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000–22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
----Toomas Kivisild (2012) Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
quote: Body proportions covary with climate, apparently as the result of climatic selection. Ontogenic research and migrant studies have demonstrated that body proportions are largely genetically controlled and are under low selective rates; thus studies of body form can provide evidence for evolutionarily short-term dispersals and/or gene flow. Following these observations, competing models of modern human origins yield different predictions concerning body proportion shifts in Late Pleistocene Europe. Replacement predicts that the earliest modern Europeans will possess "tropical" body proportions (assuming Africa is the center of origin), while Regional Continuity permits only minor shifts in body shape, due to climatic change and/or improved cultural buffering. This study tests these predictions via analyses of osteometric data reflective of trunk height and breadth, limb proportions and relative body mass for samples of Early Upper Paleolithic (EUP), Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) and Mesolithic (MES) humans and 13 recent African and European populations. Results reveal a clear tendency for the EUP sample to cluster with recent Africans, while LUP and MES samples cluster with recent Europeans. These results refute the hypothesis of local continuity in Europe, and are consistent with an interpretation of elevated gene flow (and population dispersal?) from Africa, followed by subsequent climatic adaptation to colder conditions. These data do not, however, preclude the possibility of some (albeit small) contribution of genes from Neandertals to succeeding populations, as is postulated in Bräuer's "Afro-European Sapiens" model.
--Holliday TW. J Hum Evol. 1997 May;32(5):423-48. Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins.
quote:What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
From where did the Vandals come originally. Lets follow the pad of the Vandals, shall we...:
Such irony.
More...
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: dana contradicted Troll patrol a number of times but neither of them is smart enough to realize it
Dana is saying the original Tamazight were "black". Where did I appose or even contradict this? SMH
I posted the Tamazight have been effected by foreign populations during recent times. Where did she contradict this? SMH
In the average "Berber" you'll see typical "negroid" traits. But more reduced.
Ps. Your picture spam on the original Maghreb populations has been destroyed by my posts prior to this one.
quote:The dates of admixture (assuming 30 years per generation)42 are reported in Table 1. Notably, in most of the Semitic, Cushitic, and Omotic populations, the admixture of African and non-African ancestry components dates to 2.5–3 kya, whereas in North Africa, the admixture dates are ~2 ky more recent, clustering around 1 kya, consistent with previous reports.
--Pagani et al 2012
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: On what the indigenous people look like, I rely on very old photos and books describing what these people look like. Back then Europeans had no interest in claiming North Africa...the land.
TP is a good source for such information on authentic photos.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote: The makers of these assemblages can therefore be seen as (1) a group of Homo sapiens predating and/or contemporary to the out-of-Africa exodus of the species, and (2) geographically one of the (if not the) closest from the main gate to Eurasia at the northeastern corner of the African continent.
Although Moroccan specimens have been discovered far away from this area, they may provide us with [b[one of the best proxies of the African groups that expanded into Eurasia[...][/b]
quote: The area differs from other sties areas such as the Nile Valley or the Near East because the Middle/Late Paleolithic transition in the Sahara is not marked by changes in core technology. The overall dates for the Libya sites containing the Aterian tool technique range from 47,000- 24,500 BP. Some of the dating techniques were Thermoluminescence (TL) which proved successful in dating several types of sediments including "desert loss" sand dunes.
quote: This paper critically reviews the meaning and history of research of the Aterian. This highlights a number of serious issues with definitions and interpretations of this technocomplex, ranging from a lack of definitional consensus to problems with the common view of the Aterian as a ‘desert adaptation’. Following this review, the paper presents the results of a quantitative study of six North African MSA assemblages (Aterian, Nubian Complex and ‘MSA’).
quote: Regular Middle Paleolithic inventories as well as Middle Paleolithic inventories of Aterian type have a long chronology in Morocco going back to MIS 6 and are interstratified in some sites. Their potential for detecting chrono-cultural patterns is low. The transition from the Middle to Upper Paleolithic, here termed Early Upper Paleolithic—at between 30 to 20 ka—remains a most enigmatic era. Scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental reconsidering of human presence. By integrating environmental data in the reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Paleolithic deposits, possibly indicative of a very low presence of humans in Morocco. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly with the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna, and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas again shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Paleolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipaleolithic occupation. Therefore, the late glacial cultural sequence of Morocco is a good test case for analyzing the interrelationship of culture and climate change.
--Late Pleistocene Human Occupation of Northwest Africa: A Crosscheck of Chronology and Climate Change in Morocco Jörg Linstädter, Prehistoric Archaeology, Cologne University, GERMANY Josef Eiwanger, KAAK, German Archaeological Institute, GERMANY Abdessalam Mikdad, INSAP, MOROCCO Gerd-Christian Weniger, Neanderthal Museum,
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Nice find TP. I always contend that the tropical belt of Africa was NOT the orginal source. It was either Sahara or Further south in Southern Africa. Not the Ethiopian region per Leakey.
Tishkoff suggested origin in Southern Africa. Norton suggest origin in more Northern Africa.
I beleive it was more Northern Africa.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The following is Troll Patrols explanation for possible U5 in in North Africa:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol I read somewhere in a source once, that Vikings took slaves to Northwest Africa as well. Guess who those were? Saami. Yes, Saami
That would mean that U5 in some berber populations came from Saami slaves who the Vikings brought to North Africa. Many berbers carry U6 rather than U5. The Siwa however are a berber group who have U5 contribution not U6. According to Troll patrol's theory this would have come from Scandinavian slaves brought to North Africa by the Vikings
In summary, although paleoanthropological evidence has established the ancient presence of anatomically modern humans in northern Africa prior to 60,000 ya [35], the simplest interpretation of our results is that the majority of ancestry in modern North Africans derives from populations outside of Africa, through at least two episodes of increased gene flow during the past 40,000 years....
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene
The following seems to be Troll Patrol's general argument about the genetic ancestry of North Africans and Explorer might also agree, in my words ( I also added Phoenicians)
Benna Henn et al are wrong.
There was no gene flow from outside of Africa into North Africa prior to the Holocene.
Outside of Africa gene flow into North Africa is due to more recent events including Phoenician settlement, Romans,Vandals Arabs, Expulsion of Moriscos, Ottoamns and European slaves of the Barbary. nothing prior to the holocene
If that is true then some hpalogroups found in North Africas were not present in Africa prior to the holocene.
Some of the haplogoups in North Africa both indigenous and not indigenous are:
HV0 HV R0 J T U5 U6 K N1 N2 X M M1 L0 L1 L2 L3 L4 L5
^^^^ xyyman I know you believe there has never been much gene flow from outside Africa into the Maghreb but not all of these haplogoups can be of African origin. Are there any here you think are not African?
Did a back migration prior to the holocene occur? I'm not sure about it. I would say it's possible
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Nice find TP. I always contend that the tropical belt of Africa was NOT the orginal source. It was either Sahara or Further south in Southern Africa. Not the Ethiopian region per Leakey.
Tishkoff suggested origin in Southern Africa. Norton suggest origin in more Northern Africa.
I beleive it was more Northern Africa.
The Sahara was not always as dry as it is today. There was a green period with plenty of vegetation and was much more habitable for humans. One of the populations living at that time were the Capsians in the Tunisan region 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. After that the Sahara was getting drier and drier.
After the drying of the Sahara there is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb until around 800 BC until Phoenician and Greek settlements.
So there is little evidence that the current population is derived from those earlier populations. There is gap there of nothing happeng for a few thousand years
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] The following is Troll Patrols explanation for possible U5 in in North Africa:
You are retarded, you yourself posted a paper "which shows similarities in genes". I mean, how dumb can you be?
Facts are, Saami people have been enslaved by Vinkings, Vinkings were at one point in North Africa, in particular Northwest Africa. I don't know anymore in what particular paper I read it in. But I summed up a few historical fact, which bring out the same conclusion. It's only retarded individuals such as yourself who can't comprehend these historical documented facts.
Another fact is that you nor any other euronut has been able to show fossil records during the Holocene and Neolithic of any wandering Eurasians/ cacasoids in the Maghreb. Why, because the remains all cluster with African remains of the South Sahara. Making them Tropical Adapted.
All you are good for is lying and making up excuses.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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