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@ Beyoku. You know what Brotha this ego thing is really getting out of control. What are we playing now “who can better estimate”. First, it is mathematically impossible for “Light Blue” to be Southern European. Because that would mean Bedouins, Yemeni’s..etc are primarily European…and I hope YOU know that is NOT the case. Bedoiuns are the most ancient and African group in the region carrying y-DNA R-V88, J* (not J2) and E. So, again, rethink your statement and stop making a fool of yourself.
This is not about who has the bigger dick. I would win that one.
Lioness. Can you at least set him straight. About the percentage, This is an easy math problem
Been awhile since I did serious calculus. But on the 1st order the percentage would be approximately as seen.
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I am have an advantage …or disadvantage when looking at these datasets. I don’t have an extensive knowledge on the history of the region as some of you on this forum. Don’t get me wrong I have some. So compared to some of you my views on genetic data are not prejudiced by what I read. A good example is that thread created by Mike on the Arabian Slave Market scene. Many of us were of the opinion the Blacks were the Slaves being sold. And that picture has been circulated on every racist website as “proof” of Africans being sold as slaves in Arabia. It is only when I asked for 1st, the authenticy then 2nd the translation, the myth was proven to be false. It was indeed the child that was being sold as a slave to the Blacks. Point being, question what you read.
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Typical statement come from a Hindu. Are you Hindu? Have YOU been to North Africa? Have YOU seen these people first hand?
What is the story..white women migrating to Africa leaving their men behind in serach of black dick.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: 1. Anybody can SEE that Berbers in generally tend to be mixed especially those in the northern areas.
2. but mitochondria tell a different story
How does the Sherlock Holmes line go? You English Majors..swenet?
No matter how improbable..
Jackasses, bottom line is if the autosome SNP is African, the y-DNA is African then the mtDNA is also African. Especially since the coalescene age is about the same and upstreams clades are found in Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] @ Beyoku. You know what Brotha this ego thing is really getting out of control. What are we playing now “who can better estimate”. First, it is mathematically impossible for “Light Blue” to be Southern European. Because that would mean Bedouins, Yemeni’s..etc are primarily European…and I hope YOU know that is NOT the case. Bedoiuns are the most ancient and African group in the region carrying y-DNA R-V88, J* (not J2) and E. So, again, rethink your statement and stop making a fool of yourself.
This is not about who has the bigger dick. I would win that one.
Lioness. Can you at least set him straight. About the percentage, This is an easy math problem
Bedouins=69.3% Saharans+..= ~75% African which agrees with Behar's chart.
Anyhow you swing it , as I said Light Blue is NOT European. It is Mathematically impossible. Ha! Ha!
Bedouins are as African as Yeminis and Qataris...
ANYONE!!!!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^^ This is getting old...we are going in circles here
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Seems like you are not following. The genetic evidence is that the spread of Islam was cultural and not demographic.(RSI).
This is getting old.....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]when are you going to put up some percentages of South Arabians? where is your genetics of South Arabia refernces?
-and your RSI theory, Reverse Spread of Islam?
Just in case you don't get it...AIM/SNP Combined with Haplogroups tells the story. That is why Henn added to verify her hypothesis with haplogroups/lineage
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xyyman you are getting repetitious and emotional posting your same erroneouly labeled chart over and over. You basic theory is that Arabians are Africans Even Explorer is probably not buying your wacky rantings on some of this stuff
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I am light years ahead of you Lioness. I don't bait easily.
So...do you agree with Beyoku. Light Blue is European in the Behar chart?
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maybe if you keep posting it it will come true. I'm not getting into what blue means. If I were to guess I would say it's Arabian as distinguished from North African as shown:
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Ha! Sensible man. It is definitely not European. Explain that to the GENETIC ANALYST who helped discover Rameses e1b1a.
Nice semantic game- Arabian..and not African.
QUOTE: I'm not getting into what blue means. If I were to guess I would say it's Arabian as distinguished from North African as shown:
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ha! Sensible man. It is definitely not European. Explain that to the GENETIC ANALYST who helped discover Rameses e1b1a.
Nice semantic game- Arabian..and not African.
QUOTE: I'm not getting into what blue means. If I were to guess I would say it's Arabian as distinguished from North African as shown:
what are you talking about "nice semantic game" ? I quoted exactly what the chart stated
J2 Distribution
This is the spread of one of the main Arabian haplogroups, J2
posted
^ Don't forget J1 which is the more common form of hg J in North Africa.
The significance of J1 verifies the Arab invasion of North Africa was done by people from the actual Arabian peninsula though J2 may have already existed prior due to Phoenician settlement, most J2 came from time periods after the Arab invasion.
While male Berbers predominantly carry E-M35 some carry J and other lineages. Hence the light blue color in the Henn autosomal studies.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Typical statement come from a Hindu. Are you Hindu? Have YOU been to North Africa? Have YOU seen these people first hand?
WTF? I don't know what my statement whichever it was has to do with 'Hinduism' and NO, I'm not Hindu. No I have not been to North Africa but YES I have seen these people first hand as there is a North African community not far from me and I have friends from the said region.
quote:What is the story..white women migrating to Africa leaving their men behind in search of black dick.
Of course I expect such an ignorant conclusion mad by an ignoramus. Apparently you haven't heard of bottle-neck events and founder effect which also explains why the predominant paternal lineage among Berbers is E-M35 as opposed to various lineages. Did the E-M35 carriers leave their women behind in search of white pussy?? As far as the maternal lineages correlating with white women (since again the lineages vary), apparently you haven't heard of the Islamic/Moorish slave trade of European women. But as I said, not surprisingly such lineages are found in the coastal areas. Interestingly though not surprising these recent European mt lineages also tend to be found in patrilineal Berber groups while the majority of African and other non-recent Eurasian mt lineages tend to be found in matrilineal groups.
quote:How does the Sherlock Holmes line go? You English Majors..swenet?
Is Swenet really an English major or are you making that up? What did YOU major in? Apparently not in science judging by your gross misinterpretation of data and silly claims based on such.
quote:No matter how improbable..
Or in your case no matter how ignorant.
quote:Jackasses, bottom line is if the autosome SNP is African, the y-DNA is African then the mtDNA is also African. Especially since the coalescene age is about the same and upstreams clades are found in Africa.
Which SNP autosomes are you referring to? Yes the Y-DNA is predominantly (though not solely African), but the mtDNA is more varied. I would say the mtDNA is also predominantly African if one speaks of L2, L3, and other L clades, and perhaps U6 and M1 as well, but to say no Eurasian lineages is absurd.
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Sometimes I get the related J1 and J2 confused. I need to remember to check which J is which periodically. The haplogroup I was referring to is J1 not J2 of the two J2 is more common in Arabs. But there is some Semitic overlap in both Js Nevertheless in the Coudray article on Berber haps just lists "J "not even bothering to indicate 1 or 2. Regardless xyyman knows even less about Arab DNA and is learning as he goes along and then messing up charts and making cute "shock" remarks. John Henrick Clarke said The Middle East was "an extension of Africa" xyyman then interprets an historians remark as genetics (not that there is not some overlap) Interestingly J2 is frequent in Jews, Southern Italians, Spain, Turkey see below for more, beginning with J1 and then J2 So when DNATribes lists "Arabian" it is not just semantics menaing African. a good chunk of that is J1 which is found at highest frequencies on the Arabian peninsula, lesser frequencies in North Africa.
In human genetics, Haplogroup J (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I, as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F. The main current subgroups J1 and J2, which now account between them for almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago
It is subdivided into two subclades: haplogroup J2, defined by the M172 marker, and haplogroup J1, defined by the M267 marker.
Haplogroup J1
Haplogroup J1 appears at high frequencies among populations of the Middle East, North Africa, and Ethiopia (Thomas et al. 1999). J1 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Muslims from Arabia since the 6th century CE.[1] Haplogroup J1 is most frequent in Arabs of the southern Levant, i.e. Palestinian Arabs (38.4%) (Semino et al.) and Arab Bedouins (62% and 82% in Negev desert Bedouins). It is also very common among other Arabic-speaking populations, such as those of Algeria (35%), Syria (30%), Iraq (33%), the Sinai Peninsula, and the Arabian Peninsula. The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic countries with mainly non-Arabic countries, such as Turkey and Iran, yet it is found at low frequency among the populations of those countries, as well as in Cyprus and Sicily. It entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic with the Neolithic Revolution and spread of agriculture, where it is found mainly among Semitic speakers (e.g. Amhara 33.3%, but Oromo 3.8%). It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 30.1%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004). Researchers believe that marker DYS388=17 (Y DNA tests for STR - Short Tandem Repeater) is linked with the later expansion of Arabian tribes in the southern Levant and northern Africa (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). Haplogroup J1 is found almost exclusively among modern populations of Southwest Asia, North Africa, and East Africa, essentially delineating the region popularly known as the Middle East and associated with speakers of Semitic languages. The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East may be associated with Arabs and Phoenicians who traded and conquered in Sicily, southern Italy, Spain, Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Pakistan, or with Jews, who have historical origins in the Middle East and speak (or historically spoke) a Semitic language, though typically Haplogroup J2 is more than twice as common among Jews. In Jewish populations overall, J1 constitutes 19.0% of the Ashkenazim results and 11.9% of the Sephardic results (Semino et al. 2004)(Behar et al. 2004). Haplogroup J1 with marker DYS388=13 is a distinctive type found in eastern Anatolia (Cinnioglu et al. 2004).
______________________________________
Haplogoup J2
Main article: Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA) Haplogroup J2 It is composed of several sub-Haplogroups representing several different countries like Turkey, Iraq, Kurdistan, Lebanon, Syria, Armenia, Georgia, Aegean, Balkan, Italy. One sub Haplogroup M172* is mainly found in the Northern Fertile Crescent, the Mediterranean, Iran, Central Asia, and Southern Europe. Is is though to have originated in Anatolia (Turkey and Kurdstan) ie North Mesopotamia, and spread to Europe and to other Middle countries like Lebanon Palestine Iraq, Syria. J2 subclades is found also in Armenia, Azerbaijan), Iran, Central Asia, and South Asia: for example, Muslim Kurds (28.4%), Central Turks (27.9%), Georgians (26.7%), Iraqis (25.2%), Lebanese (25%), Ashkenazi Jews (23.2%), Sephardi Jews (28.6%), Iranians (23.3%), Tajiks (18.4%), and Pakistanis (14.7%). J2 is not regularly found in Semitic-speaking populations of Africa, such as the Amhara and Tigrinya in Ethiopia (Semino et al. 2004). However, J2 has been found to encompass several subhaplogroups (22 subhaplogroups, including 5 that have high frequencies) that originated or expanded in different regions: Italy, the Balkans, the Aegean, Anatolia (Turkey and Kurds), the Caucasus (Georgia), and Somalia (see ref: Semino et al. 2004). Haplogroup J2 was used to be considered a genetic marker of Anatolian Neolithic agriculturalists. It is also very frequent in the Balkans (Greeks 20.6%, Albanians 19.6%) and in southern Italy (16.7-29.1%). Its frequency rapidly drops in the Carpathian basin (Croatians 6.2%, Hungarians 2.0%, Ukrainians 7.3%) and in Southeastern Iranian-speaking areas (Pashtuns 5.2%, Pamiris 6.1%). A significant presence of J2 (J2b2+J2a) was detected in western and south-western India (the highest being 21% among Dravidian middle castes, followed by upper castes, 18.6%, and lower castes 14%; Sengupta et al. 2006).
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Typical statement come from a Hindu. Are you Hindu? Have YOU been to North Africa? Have YOU seen these people first hand?
What is the story..white women migrating to Africa leaving their men behind in serach of black dick.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: 1. Anybody can SEE that Berbers in generally tend to be mixed especially those in the northern areas.
2. but mitochondria tell a different story
How does the Sherlock Holmes line go? You English Majors..swenet?
No matter how improbable..
Jackasses, bottom line is if the autosome SNP is African, the y-DNA is African then the mtDNA is also African. Especially since the coalescene age is about the same and upstreams clades are found in Africa.
The ancestor of hg R is M207 P-M45. This haplotype is found in Africa. As a result it is shared by all R haplogroups.
There is a great diversity of the macrohaplogroup R in Africa . Y-chromosome R is characterized by M207/V45. The marker M45 is found among African groups because it is a marker for M207/V45.
The V45 mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.
V88 is older than M209. The TMRCA of V88 was 9200 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Most Eurasians carry the younger M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya).
M207 is in Africa because this is where the haplotype originated. No one has claimed that V88 is the result of a back migration. Most researchers today claim that this clade is Africa specific.
The Myres et al article does not support a back migration for R1.
Myres et al note the maritime spread of neolithic farming communities using impressed cardial pottery to coastal Mediterranean populations and Crete 9kya . They interpret the phylogeography as an indication of the probable spread of M269 from Anatolia. This is contrary to the archaeological data which recognize the migration of populations around this time period from Africa, not Anatolia .
The early coalescent estimate of M269*+L23 (x M412) chromosome between 8.5-12 kya (1) , suggest an African genesis for M269, rather than Southwest Asia, since we see not only Sub-Saharan populations entering the area around this time they also bring with them Sub-Saharan fauna (4) ; and African groups who carry R1b are not of Middle eastern Origin (5).
Many of the African populations that carry R1* M173 are associated with the the Kushite people of Nubia (6) . As a result we find many Eurasian ethnonyms of Anatolia and Mesopotamia that indicate a Kushite presence including the Ksaka tribe (7) ; and Kings of Kish/Kush (6) .
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Typical statement come from a Hindu. Are you Hindu? Have YOU been to North Africa? Have YOU seen these people first hand?
What is the story..white women migrating to Africa leaving their men behind in serach of black dick.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: 1. Anybody can SEE that Berbers in generally tend to be mixed especially those in the northern areas.
2. but mitochondria tell a different story
How does the Sherlock Holmes line go? You English Majors..swenet?
No matter how improbable..
Jackasses, bottom line is if the autosome SNP is African, the y-DNA is African then the mtDNA is also African. Especially since the coalescene age is about the same and upstreams clades are found in Africa.
M originated in Africa. The Dravidian took this haplogroup to India.
Here is the haplogroups found by Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha SS, Villems R (1999b) The place of the Indian mitochondrial DNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In: Deka R, Papiha SS (eds) Genomic diversity. Kluwer/Academic/Plenum Publishers, New York, pp 135–152.
Footnote 28 is related to the Kivisild et al (1999), in this paper the authors mention 26 M1 carriers as I noted earlier.
Note the (16)129–(16)189–(16)223–(16)249–(16)311 mutations listed in the M1 carried by the 26 Dravidians that made up M1 in the above illustration ia analogous.
. As you can see M1 is listed as an Indian clade.. Gonzalez et al also found M1 in India.
Gonzalez , A. Jose M Larruga , Khaled K Abu-Amero , Yufei Shi , Jose Pestano and Vicente M Cabrera. (2007).Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa, BMC Genomics , 8:223 doi:10.1186/1471-2164-8-223. Retrieved on 9/15/2010 http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/8/223
. The Gonzalez et al article is further proof of the African origin for y-chromosome R1’ The researchers found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers were M269. the finding is further proof of the widespread nature of so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Beyoku. You know what Brotha this ego thing is really getting out of control. What are we playing now “who can better estimate”. First, it is mathematically impossible for “Light Blue” to be Southern European. Because that would mean Bedouins, Yemeni’s..etc are primarily European…and I hope YOU know that is NOT the case. Bedoiuns are the most ancient and African group in the region carrying y-DNA R-V88, J* (not J2) and E. So, again, rethink your statement and stop making a fool of yourself.
This is not about who has the bigger dick. I would win that one.
Lioness. Can you at least set him straight. About the percentage, This is an easy math problem
Been awhile since I did serious calculus. But on the 1st order the percentage would be approximately as seen.
Complete and utter garbage. I am trying to figure out if you are an old senile man, a 13 year old kid, or perhaps not well versed in the English language.
I just explained how the program works. I explained to you that each one of these vertical lines is an individual. What do you go and do? - DRAW A LINE DIRECTLY THROUGH A SECTION OF THEIR ANCESTRY. You cannot draw that line across at 60-70% because SOME of the individuals have ancestry in the same component that exceeds the 60-70% Mark and goes OVER the line. That was the point. Can you see that in the image?
While Palestinians, Druze, Moroccan/Yemeni/Ethiopian Jews are somewhat uniform, that could work for them. Bedouin are NOT uniform. Zooming in on the "Ethiopians", they are not uniform either:
[/URL]
YOu cannot just draw a line across the 55% mark and say they are 55% East African because you cut out the 6 individuals that are around 80% East African..........You therefore just ignore a THIRD of the population sample.
You are ignoring nearly 40-50% of the Bedouin sample by drawing that line. The individual Bedouin men OVER that line EXCEED the % of Blue component found in North Africans. that is Strike one.
STrike 2 - You are making a priori assumption that the component is African. You have to work FORWARD from K=2 not BACKWARDS from K=9. The basic separation of African and Western Eurasian is shown in K=3. Look at the position of Bedouins with the West Eurasians. From there you move forward. Most of their ancestry is always in a Western Eurasian context. You are unsure of how the program works. See Tishkoff et al for a good explanation.
Strike 3 - Bedouin have no V88 and VERY low J*. Their Haplogroup E is around 10%. They are dominated by J1 and R1a. Furthermore the combined Moroccan sample has a greater percentage of J1 than Bedouin has E.
posted
Great post Dr. Winters. Nice leads to followup on.
@Beyoku.. Give it up man. Take your lumps and call it a day.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Great post Dr. Winters. Nice leads to followup on.
@Beyoku.. Give it up man. Take your lumps and call it a day.
quote: You are ignoring nearly 40-50% of the Bedouin sample by drawing that line. The individual Bedouin men OVER that line EXCEED the % of Blue component found in North Africans. that is Strike one.
Do you NOT have eyes to see that the Bolded portion of my statement is factually correct at K=5-8? Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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You haven't read enough and displayed the type of intelectual prowess for me spending so much time. You have a knack for stating the obvious and ...missing the obvious. Of course each group represent a collection of individuals within the said population. The line represent an average/mode/median of the group ie some values are above some below for each K. Here is R-V88 in the Levant.
And find another hobby. This is not working for you. More on ESR
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Great post Dr. Winters. Nice leads to followup on.
@Beyoku.. Give it up man. Take your lumps and call it a day.
quote: You are ignoring nearly 40-50% of the Bedouin sample by drawing that line. The individual Bedouin men OVER that line EXCEED the % of Blue component found in North Africans. that is Strike one.
Do you NOT have eyes to see that the Bolded portion of my statement is factually correct at K=5-8?
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I am looking for a paper that I lost...about 4ya. It showed Y-DNA hg-I in the San in southern Africa. Anyone has it?
I believe I posted excerpts in the thread created by Explorer. "Trails of Cro-Magnon Man or Grimaldi". One of the best threads.
Can't seems to bump that thread.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You haven't read enough and displayed the type of intelectual prowess for me spending so much time. You have a knack for stating the obvious and ...missing the obvious. Of course each group represent a collection of individuals within the said population. The line represent an average/mode/median of the group ie some values are above some below for each K. Here is R-V88 in the Levant.
And find another hobby. This is not working for you. More on ESR
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Great post Dr. Winters. Nice leads to followup on.
@Beyoku.. Give it up man. Take your lumps and call it a day.
quote: You are ignoring nearly 40-50% of the Bedouin sample by drawing that line. The individual Bedouin men OVER that line EXCEED the % of Blue component found in North Africans. that is Strike one.
Do you NOT have eyes to see that the Bolded portion of my statement is factually correct at K=5-8?
Again you display MORE Stupidity. I actually LINKED the Y-dna of the Bedouin in question. The SAME EXACT Bedouin whose Autosomal results we are looking at. I also stated all Bedouin are not the same. What do you go and do?...............you go and link the Y-dna results of a totally different Group, in JORDAN, who are in fact NOT EVEN BEDOUIN!
quote:As Bedouin tribes had an important role in the colonization of southeast Jordan, it could be that the haplogroup composition of the Dead Sea reflected genetic affinities to them, but that is not the case. The most striking characteristic of the Dead Sea sample is the high prevalence of R1*-M173 lineages (40%), contrasting with the lack of them and of its derivates R1b3-M269 in Bedouin from Nebel et al. (2001) and its low frequencies in Amman.
quote: Another singularity of the Dead Sea is its high frequency (31%) of E3b3a-M34, a derivate clade of E3b3-M123 that is only found in 7% in Bedouins (Cruciani et al. 2004). Until now, the highest frequencies for this marker (23.5%) had been found in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al. 2004). On the contrary, most Bedouin chromosomes (63%) belong to haplogroup J1-M267 (Semino et al. 2004) compared with 9% in the Dead Sea
Notice the differentiation of Dead Sea Jordanians and "Bedouin". Nowhere in that article are Dead Sea Jordanians called "Bedouin". One good thing about this study is that you can see the Autosomal results AND The Y-dna/mtdna results of the individual samples. Not sure why you ignored this and link data on Jordanians....stupidity perhaps? Moving on to this idiotic statement:
quote: The line represent an average/mode/median of the group ie some values are above some below for each K.
Well duh, dont try and act like you knew that the entire time. You dont even know what a "K" is. Looking at the study there are 45 Bedouin and 27 Mozibite. (Page 34 of the supplemental you failed to click.) The Mozabite carry that blue component at 60-70% give or take. Half of the Bediouin match that at 60-70% as well. BUT There about about 20 or so Bedouin that exceed that 60-70%....and instead they carry the Blue Cluster at 80-90%. Since NONE of the Mozibite carry the Blue component at 80-90% - this component cannot be characteristic of the Mozibite at the specific K=5,6,7,and 8. Got it dummy?
Its like 2 basket ball teams: TEAM ONE has 20 African American's that are all 6 foot 5. TEAM TWO has 20 African Americans that are 6 foot 5 also... but they also have 10 Sudanese Dinka Bench-warmers that are all 7 foot 6 inches.
Mean while your dumbass (attending your first B-Ball game I should add) is sitting on the sidelines, arguing with a season pass holder that Team One is the "best representation of Height". Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Well duh, dont try and act like you knew that the entire time. You dont even know what a "K" is. Looking at the study there are 45 Bedouin and 27 Mozibite. (Page 34 of the supplemental you failed to click.) The Mozabite carry that blue component at 60-70% give or take. Half of the Bediouin match that at 60-70% as well. BUT There about about 20 or so Bedouin that exceed that 60-70%....and instead they carry the Blue Cluster at 80-90%. Since NONE of the Mozibite carry the Blue component at 80-90% - this component cannot be characteristic of the Mozibite at the specific K=5,6,7,and 8. Got it dummy?
To add to what you're saying here, the Mozabites have little to no light blue in Behar. It just classifies as light blue for the lack of a better category until a proper category is 'found' for the Mozabite and Morrocan ancestry at K=10. It's no different from what happens in Henn et al 2012, where the generalised purple Eurasian ancestry doesn't turn into Maghrebi proper until K=4. In Henn et al 2012, Qatar isn't assigned its own ancestry until K=6. The predominant purple assignment of these two populations in Henn et al 2012's K=2 doesn't mean that Qatari and Maghrebi populations, or any other population for that matter, actually have purple to the extent that Xyyman's amateurish interpretations of the lower Ks suggests.
Only at K=4-8 do we gradually get to see how much of Henn et al 2012's purple turns out to actually be purple. First Maghrebi ancestry (light blue) differentiates from purple at K=4, and then Arabian ancestry (green) differentiates from purple at K=6. Only then does purple represent 1 ancestry, rather than a generalized, primordial ancestry. Xyyman is too demented and uneducated to grasp this elementary concept, as evidenced by his insisting that Behar is supportive of the idea that Mozabites have more than marginal light blue. Behar's light blue equals Henn et al's dark purple, and Henn et al's light blue equals Behar's dark purple. But Henn et al's methodology doesn't take as long to assign North African specific ancestry as Behar's methodology does. Henn et al's methodology assigns Maghrebi specific ancestry at K=4, while Behar doesn't do so until K=10.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the reason certain geographic maps of North Africa don't correspond to human biological maps of North Africa is because of population densities and the desert barrier between modern population centers
Africa Population Density
The smaller the area the more precise and less diluted by averages of a wider diversity
What they choose to call North Africa is irrelevant to the the analysis of the set of countries that are listed in a given analysis
If a set of counties is analyzed the information stated remains the same whatever you choose to call the set. That's semantics.
as we see populations of the Sahel are contiguous with Sub Saharan Africa, they flow into each other. And since the dry period of several thousand years they do not flow into North Africa, They are separated by desert.
What one chooses to call North Africa is a separate political issue. One could argue calling the Sahel North Africa separates it from West and Central Africa yet there are more population overlaps and corresponding higher frequencies of L then to align the Sahel with North Africa. These researchers could prevent a lot of confusion if they would switch to the term Maghreb instead of "North Africa" which has at least 4 significantly different definitions, different combinations of countries possible and you cant's say one is better than the other.
And more...
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As I said. The Bedouins are one of the most African groups in the Levant. Listen man you have a habit of either citing things you did not read or you do not understand(DJ has the same annoying habit). Last time you did this was with Dienkess. Evidently you are wasting my time. If you continue doing this, I can not be of any help to you and you are on your own.
Quote: from what you cited. [[[[Supplementary Note 2: Details of Old-World PCA We investigated the lower-ranked PC3 and PC4 for meaningful variation
Thus, PC3 describes genotype variation within Africa and projection of Middle Eastern populations along this PC suggests that alleles in Yoruba-Mandenka-Bantu group are also present among a SUBSET of Bedouin]]] of the Levant
[[[[The third cluster comprised solely of Yemenite Jews is also evident in the Old Worldbased PC plot and is clearly separated from Yemenites but overlaps with Bedouins and Saudis.]]]]
But you know what, I am glad I went back to check. One thing I discovered. The results from Bedouins in “this” study really came from three studies and 3 DIFFERENT groups of “Bedouins”. Now which Bediouns are you referring to?
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posted
As a side note: You, or anyone reading this, do realize there is a commonality amongst Jews regardless of ethnic base, from Africa to Europe and Karachi? The commonality is the presence and proportion North African and South Saharan DNA. This is consistently found amongst Jewish groups all over the old World.
The question now is …why?
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posted
The depraved sultan and his forgotten white slaves
One October evening in 1738, the population of Penryn abandoned their village to welcome home a man with a great long beard and sun-blackened face. Not even his parents recognised Thomas Pellow, who had been seized by Barbary corsairs when he was 11 and taken to Morocco, where he spent 23 years as a slave of Mulay Ismail, a sultan of story-book depravity.
Pellow's adventures, ghosted by a local hack in 1740, are the catalyst for Giles Milton's rattling account of the forgotten white slaves of North Africa: an estimated one million Europeans and Americans captured between 1550 and 1816 when Algiers, the hub of this traffic, was bombarded into submission by a relative of Pellow.
Go to the Rif or the Atlas and you will find grey-eyed men and women, the descendants of 400 Icelanders abducted by pirates sailing from another slave capital, the Moroccan port of Salé. In their swift xebecs, the "Sallee Rovers" kidnapped thousands of English, mainly from the West Country. Between 1609 and 1625, they took 466 English ships, raised the Islamic flag on Lundy and, in one spectacular raid, dragged 60 men, women and children from St Michael's Mount.
The corsairs were like English football supporters: "ugly onhumayne creatures" wrote one survivor, who "with their heads shaved and their armes almost naked did terrifye me exceedingly".
Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers. One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
Most Christian slaves were kept in dungeons, whipped, burned and compelled to work 15-hour days until they expired. A few were ransomed for enormous sums. One secured her release for £1,392, more than most Londoners earned in a lifetime.
During his 55-year reign, a procession of useless English ambassadors tried to parlay with Ismail, but he outwitted them all. In fact, Ismail was a Neronic monster of unrivalled awfulness. In the words of one French padre, "He dribbles continuously." Capricious, cruel, ignorant and vain, he dressed to kill - which he liked to do in red riding boots. "It is one of his common diversions, at one motion to mount his horse, draw his scimitar, and cut off the head of the slave who holds his stirrup."
Heads continually roll in Milton's narrative. The sultan would order a man's decapitation by shrinking his head to his shoulder, "and then, with a very quick or sudden motion, extending it". With this turkey-like movement, Ismail despatched even his son. In his 80 years, he seems to have feared only one person: a black harridan of a wife who poisoned another of his sons.
The sultan needed his Christian slaves to build the imperial palace at Meknes. This was a megalomaniac complex designed to outrival Versailles and planned to stretch for 300 miles to Marrakesh. At any one time, Ismail employed up to 25,000 emaciated foreign labourers to pack wet lime and earth into boxes and then face the mortar with marble and mosaics in "a geometric interplay that fooled the eye and dazzled the senses".
The experience of reading White Gold is rather like visiting this palace (now ruined) in the company of an excitable and well-informed guide. Milton presents his material with panache and has researched widely, although not exhaustively (he seems unaware of one survivor's account of 27 Icelandic prisoners of the "barbarians" who returned home in 1637). Terrified of boring, he can be frustratingly colourful. At times, I felt gorged on the opulent accounts of suffering, and pined to be shown more lime and earth, so to speak, and fewer arabesques.
Milton can also ram home a point as if he is loading a musket against unbelievers. My faith in the accuracy of Pellow's account was not always so strong as his, especially the story of how Pellow denied his sultan access to his own harem by shooting him through the door with a blunderbuss. None the less, it is a galloping narrative and is enlivened by memorable details.
posted
^^^ this seems to be an argument that there is significant genetic contributions to North Africa form Europe due to Barbary pirtates kidnapping and enslavement of Europeans.
I'm not sure about how much it represents. I have heard of berbers having European slaves but that was probably rare. It was primarily Ottomans sultans and Arab cohorts.
A much greater proportion of these slaves were men. However most of them eventually returned to Europe and it's unlikely that many were mixing and producing children with Ottomans, Arabs or berbers.
The smaller number of European women in the Ottoman pasha's harem on the other hand were probably some offspring probably with Ottomans mainly and perhaps also Arabs and the occasional berber who could afford one. The larger number of kidnapped Europeans were kidnapped for ransom or labor.
Berbers however had retreated to the mountains to avoid the Ottomans and Arabs and it seems unlikely that they would have much admixture with these kidnapped Eurpeans. Some of the Barbary corsairs, the pirates doing the capturing of Europeans were outcast European coverte to islam themselves. The most famous for instance Hayreddin Barbarossa ("Red Beard"), an Ottoman admiral was born on the Greek island of Lesbos. They had a variety of various North Africans in their crews. They are said to be the original O.G.s
In earlier periods prior to Islam there were also Pheonicians cities Carthage being the largest and later take over by Romans and then Germanic Vandals
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As I said. The Bedouins are one of the most African groups in the Levant. Listen man you have a habit of either citing things you did not read or you do not understand(DJ has the same annoying habit). Last time you did this was with Dienkess. Evidently you are wasting my time. If you continue doing this, I can not be of any help to you and you are on your own.
But you know what, I am glad I went back to check. One thing I discovered. The results from Bedouins in “this” study really came from three studies and 3 DIFFERENT groups of “Bedouins”. Now which Bediouns are you referring to?
Again this is why you are stupid. What you quote about the Mandinka just means that he Bedouin have some African Admixture....Nothing more. I then link AGAIN the supplemental...and even note the SPECIFIC PAGE that details the Bedouin. What do you do? Make some madness about 3 different groups and ask me which Bedouin I am talking about. Why do you ask me which bedouin if I note those on page 34!
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Take note = Bedouin, 45 samples from Li et al. Hmm.....Li et al, lets take a look at Le et al because the Mozabite samples is ALSO from Li et al,
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Hmm,.....look at Sardinians.,...one big block of Green. Hm... Look at the Mozabite. THey have alarge chunk of Brown. Wait a minute....look at the Bedouin.....they have the same chunk of brown but some of the Bedouin are completely BROWN.
Let et al:
quote: In many populations, ancestry is derived predominantly from one of the inferred components, whereas in others, especially those in the Middle East and South/Central Asia, there are multiple sources of ancestry. For example, Palestinians, Druze, and Bedouins have contributions from the Middle East, Europe, and South/Central Asia.
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posted
Quote: [[[In many populations, ancestry is derived predominantly from one of the inferred components, whereas in others, especially those in the Middle East and South/Central Asia, there are multiple sources of ancestry. For example, Palestinians, Druze, and Bedouins have contributions from the Middle East, Europe, and South/Central Asia]]].
No African? Really?
Yaaawnnn!!!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] As I said. The Bedouins are one of the most African groups in the Levant. Listen man you have a habit of either citing things you did not read or you do not understand(DJ has the same annoying habit). Last time you did this was with Dienkess. Evidently you are wasting my time. If you continue doing this, I can not be of any help to you and you are on your own.
Quote: from what you cited. [[[[Supplementary Note 2: Details of Old-World PCA We investigated the lower-ranked PC3 and PC4 for meaningful variation
Thus, PC3 describes genotype variation within Africa and projection of Middle Eastern populations along this PC suggests that alleles in Yoruba-Mandenka-Bantu group are also present among a SUBSET of Bedouin]]] of the Levant
[[[[The third cluster comprised solely of Yemenite Jews is also evident in the Old Worldbased PC plot and is clearly separated from Yemenites but overlaps with Bedouins and Saudis.]]]]
But you know what, I am glad I went back to check. One thing I discovered. The results from Bedouins in “this” study really came from three studies and 3 DIFFERENT groups of “Bedouins”. Now which Bediouns are you referring to?
This is like beating a dead horse.....
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The more you post the more I realize you are delusional. You really believe Light Blue is European. You may a a sick puppy. Enough said.
Hey. Run with it. Anyone can see that is NOT the case. Fools paradise.
===
edit.
I just checked your Li et al. What you posted was just ONE K dataset(K-7). Why not post ALL K's.
Irregardless in this dataset. Brown seems to be North African. Green is European. Pink being SSA. Again this supports what I am saying!!! Ha! Ha! Bedouins seem to be predominantly African. You lose again man!!!
I am beginning to think you are not only delusional but also dis-honest.
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posted
Also. At K-7 there are trace SSA in Sardinians. Let's look at the other K's for Sardinia. SSA may become more obvious.
You are a BSer!! Idiot! Wasting my time with your games.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Irregardless in this dataset. Brown seems to be North African. Green is European. Pink being SSA. Again this supports what I am saying!!! Ha! Ha! Bedouins seem to be predominantly African. You lose again man!!!
Idiocy. You are calling Brown North African meanwhile the image shows half the Bedouin 100% Brown............and all the North Africans 65% Brown.
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As I said. You are a conman and delusional. Maybe a fool also.
Behar...Sardinians are seem pure at certain K. And definitely Admixed North African/European.
K3 and K6.
That is why you look at the entire profile. Are you BSing me.
I beginning to think. You are a pretender. If you don't know this. And you are wasting my time.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ this seems to be an argument that there is significant genetic contributions to North Africa form Europe due to Barbary pirtates kidnapping and enslavement of Europeans.
I'm not sure about how much it represents. I have heard of berbers having European slaves but that was probably rare. It was primarily Ottomans sultans and Arab cohorts.
A much greater proportion of these slaves were men. However most of them eventually returned to Europe and it's unlikely that many were mixing and producing children with Ottomans, Arabs or berbers.
The smaller number of European women in the Ottoman pasha's harem on the other hand were probably some offspring probably with Ottomans mainly and perhaps also Arabs and the occasional berber who could afford one. The larger number of kidnapped Europeans were kidnapped for ransom or labor.
Berbers however had retreated to the mountains to avoid the Ottomans and Arabs and it seems unlikely that they would have much admixture with these kidnapped Eurpeans. Some of the Barbary corsairs, the pirates doing the capturing of Europeans were outcast European coverte to islam themselves. The most famous for instance Hayreddin Barbarossa ("Red Beard"), an Ottoman admiral was born on the Greek island of Lesbos. They had a variety of various North Africans in their crews. They are said to be the original O.G.s
In earlier periods prior to Islam there were also Pheonicians cities Carthage being the largest and later take over by Romans and then Germanic Vandals
The number of European slaves was a few million. And I find it amusing when people act as if it didn't change the demographic gene pool in the region.lol
Then you have the expulsion of the Moriscos and Conversos. Their number is estimated a few hunderd thousand. These people still have descendants living in the Maghreb.
--L. P. Harvey, Muslims in Spain, 1500 to 1614
quote: The memory of the loss of Granada was also still alive, and it had driven a large number of exiles, known as andalusiyyun or ' Andalusians' (those who came from al-Andalus), to Morocco.
--Mercedes García-Arenal Ahmad al-Mansur: the beginnings of modern Morocco (2009)
And yes, again. I do find it amusing we don't see this reflected in many genetic studies, such as the one you're addressing in this thread. What does this tell us? lol
quote: There is much disagreement about the size of the Morisco population. Henri Lapeyre estimates from his study of census reports and embarkation lists that approximately 275,000 Spanish Moriscos emigrated in the years 1609-14, out of a total of 300,000. [15] This conservative estimate is not consistent with many of the contemporary accounts that give a figure of 600,000. [16] Bearing in mind that the total population of Spain at that time was only about seven and a half million, this must have constituted a serious deficit in terms of productive manpower and tax revenue. In the Kingdom of Valencia, which lost a third of its population, nearly half the villages were deserted in 1638.
"A much greater proportion of these slaves were men. However most of them eventually returned to Europe".
^Translation they became freed men, bought for ransom. So, they were able to cupulate with local women. And not "greater portion of them remained in...where....yes, North Africa creating offspring. Maybe not all of them, but let's say 30% did.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As I said. The Bedouins are one of the most African groups in the Levant. Listen man you have a habit of either citing things you did not read or you do not understand(DJ has the same annoying habit)...
Not only is what you accuse Beyoku and I of totally FALSE but it is YOU who are guilty of just that!!-- citing things you did not read or not understanding!
Beyoku has just corrected your erroneous misinterpretations and even distortions of the said data you are arguing about, yet you still go own squawking in arrogance as if you were proven right! I don't know if it's that your ego is too large or that you are too stupid as Beyoku says. But whatever, dude. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Indeed, and that underived F* is found in Sudan in appreciable frequencies yet not in Arabia is also telling.
I am only now starting to see the magnitude and importance of the para-group F* and her descendant clades, which are found in Africa. It's of major importance. I've never focused on it before.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman you seem to be completely ignorant on what the Bedouin haplogroups are.
I know.
Population of Jordon 6.2 mill Dead Sea popualtion 25,000.
we could go into the West Asian origins of R-M173 we could get into mt DNA of Bedouin We could look at Jordanians from Amman, pop 2.8 mil also listed on the chart much lower in M123 and M78
why even waste time on this?
The topic is North African Maghrebians
If you exclude M1 and U6 they are still about 10% European, more European admixture than Middle Easterners.
You go into these various areas in the Mid east or North Africa circle some hgs in small popualtions and declare the whole region African. At least start with a whole country before you make these sweeping emotion based statements
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the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers. One Frenchman was locked up, naked, for six days with a bottle of brandy and four women, a eunuch keeping watch; whenever sexual activity flagged, he ordered a drum serenade.
White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam's One Million White Slaves
description of book: In the seventeenth, eighteenth, and early nineteenth centuries, the Barbary states of North Africa used Islamic pirates, or corsairs, to conduct slave raids, which fed the flourishing slave markets of Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli. Many of the enslaved were white Europeans or North Americans captured at sea. Among them was Thomas Pellow, an 11-year-old English child who was seized in 1716 and served for 23 years as a personal servant to Sultan Moulay Ismail of Morocco. Milton relates Pellow's compelling story as a triumph of wile, pluck, and endurance; but this is also a tale of great brutality and suffering, as Milton eloquently shows that all of the indignities one associates with European and American slavery were visited upon those held in North Africa.
________________________________ Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif, engraving, 1719 wiki
Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif (1634? or 1645? – 22 March 1727), r was the second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty. Like others of the dynasty, Ismaïl claimed to be a descendant of Muhammad through his roots to Hassan ibn Ali. He is also known in his native country as the "Warrior King" He has also been given the epithet "The bloodthirsty"[3] for his legendary cruelty. In order to intimidate rivals, Ismail ordered that his city walls be adorned with 10,000 heads of slain enemies. Legends of the ease in which Ismail could behead or torture laborers or servants he thought to be lazy are numerous. Within the 20 years of Ismail's rule, it is estimated 30,000 people died.
Moulay Ismaïl is noted as one of the greatest figures in Moroccan history. He fought the Ottoman Turks in 1679, 1682 and 1695/96. After these battles the Moroccan independence was respected. Another problem was the European occupation of several seaports: in 1681 he retook al-Mamurah (La Mamora) from the Spanish, in 1684 Tangier from the English, and in 1689 Larache also from the Spanish. Moulay Ismaïl had excellent relations with Louis XIV of France, the enemy of Spain, to whom he sent ambassador Mohammad Temim in 1682. There was cooperation in several fields. French officers trained the Moroccan army and advised the Moroccans in the building of public works.
Moulay Ismaïl is also known as a fearsome ruler and used at least 25,000 slaves for the construction of his capital. His Christian slaves were often used as bargaining counters with the European powers, selling them back their captured subjects for inflated sums or for rich gifts. Most of his slaves were obtained by Barbary pirates in raids on Western Europe.Over 150,000 men from sub-Saharan Africa served in his elite Black Guard. By the time of Ismail's death, the guard had grown tenfold, the largest in Moroccan history.
Ambassador Admiral Abdelkader Perez was sent by Ismail Ibn Sharif to England in 1723. Moulay Ismaïl is alleged to have fathered 888 children. A total of 867 children, including 525 sons and 342 daughters, was noted by 1703 and his 700th son was born in 1721.[3]This is widely considered the record number of offspring for any man throughout history that can be verified.
posted
lol at the disgruntled mindset. You truly have a unhealthy brain. Twisting... tweaking... lying throughout live.
quote:Attractive European women were sent to the sultan's harem, and the strongest men to breeding farms to mate with black Senegalese slaves, Ismail believing that mulattos made the most trustworthy workers.
quote: "it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
--Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, (1987 - page 5.)
quote: "During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996).
During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia
--(Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
quote: It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse
--(Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
An introduction to the Saqaliba. Somehow Henn (from the "block") forgot to mention this part of history in her little (dipper)-paper.
posted
I found this quote and its rather peculiar;
quote: Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.
[...]
Although most post-Last Glacial Maximum recolonization events have a typically northward signature,30, 31 our J1e results provide an example of a southward spread during the early Holocene. Although J1e is one of the most frequent haplogroups in the region, haplogroup E-M123 also shows its highest frequency and haplotype diversity in regions of the Fertile Crescent, decreasing toward the Arabian Peninsula.
--Jacques Chiaroni et al. The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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I don't know what my statement whichever it was has to do with 'Hinduism' and NO, I'm not Hindu. No I have not been to North Africa but YES I have seen these people first hand as there is a North African community not far from me and I have friends from the said region.
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