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http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002397

PLOS Genetics 2012

Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,


Laura R. Botigué equal contributor,


Simon Gravel,

Wei Wang,

Abra Brisbin,

Jake K. Byrnes,

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid,

Pierre A. Zalloua,

Abstract

North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data [730,000 sites] from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago [approximately 1,200 ya]; a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago [approximately 750 ya]. Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa.

Author Summary

Proposed migrations between North Africa and neighboring regions have included Paleolithic gene flow from the Near East, an Arabic migration across the whole of North Africa 1,400 years ago [ya], and trans-Saharan transport of slaves from sub-Saharan Africa. Historical records, archaeology, and mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA have been marshaled in support of one theory or another, but there is little consensus regarding the overall genetic background of North African populations or their origin and expansion. We characterize the patterns of genetic variation in North Africa using ~730,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms from across the genome for seven populations. We observe two distinct, opposite gradients of ancestry: an east-to-west increase in likely autochthonous North African ancestry and an east-to-west decrease in likely Near Eastern Arabic ancestry. The indigenous North African ancestry may have been more common in Berber populations and appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern/Europeans likely precedes the Holocene [>12,000 ya]. We also find significant signatures of sub-Saharan African ancestry that vary substantially among populations. These sub-Saharan ancestries appear to be a recent introduction into North African populations, dating to about 1,200 years ago in southern Morocco and about 750 years ago into Egypt, possibly reflecting the patterns of the trans-Saharan slave trade that occurred during this period.

Introduction

The census size of Mediterranean North Africa exceeds 160 million people [1], but relatively little is known about the genetic makeup of these populations and the demographic history of migration between North Africa and neighboring regions. Mediterranean North Africans are often grouped with Near Eastern populations because populations in both regions speak primarily Afro-Asiatic languages, like Arabic, and phenotypic attributes, like lighter skin pigmentation, differentiate many North Africans from sub-Saharan Africans. Recently, geneticists have attempted to replicate disease associations identified in Europeans and Near Eastern groups with North African populations, reflecting a hypothesis of shared genetic ancestry, with mixed results [2]–[5]. In this paper, we present analysis of autosomal single nucleotide polymorphism [SNP] array data for seven North African populations [see Materials and Methods], distributed along an east-to-west transect across the continent. We clarify the population structure of North Africa and explicitly interrogate the history of gene flow into North Africa from the Near East, Europe and sub-Saharan Africa.

Prior genetic studies, largely from uniparentally inherited markers, have not resolved the location origin of North African populations or the timing of human dispersal[s] into North Africa. Analyses based on the frequencies of a small number of autosomal genetic polymorphisms and uniparental markers have shown that the genetic landscape follow an east-west pattern with little to no difference between Berber- and Arab-speaking populations [6], [7]. Mitochondrial data, for example, indicate an early back-to-Africa migration [8]–[10], but Y-chromosome markers largely support a Neolithic expansion and historic period gene flow throughout the Mediterranean [11] [though see [12]]. Do current North Africans retain genetic continuity with the first modern human occupants of northern Africa from more than 50,000 years ago [ya] or was northern Africa primarily repopulated during the Holocene by herding and farming populations from elsewhere? Evidence of Neolithic migration from the Near East is supported by the introduction of domestic animals like cows, sheep and goats to North Africa. But the indigenous development of ceramics in Saharan Africa by 9,000 ya is also suggestive of an incipient form of agriculture or pastoralism, prior to any demic diffusion from the Near East [13].

Less controversial is the observation that many North African populations now speak Arabic and that this language shift occurred primarily after the Arabic conquest 1,400 ya. This Arabic shift is well documented, but it remains unknown how deeply recent migrations [<2,000 ya] from the Arabian and Iberian Peninsulas shaped the genetic diversity of current North African populations. In addition, sub-Saharan influence has been detected in North African samples by all types of genetic markers analyzed, although it is unknown how recent this gene flow might have been [14]–[16]. Initial autosomal SNP analysis of the Algerian Mozabites indicated they carry ancestry from Europe, the Near East and sub-Saharan Africa; neighbor-joining phylogenetic analysis suggested that Mozabites branch off with Out-of-African populations, but are an outgroup to all Near Eastern populations in the Human Genome Diversity Panel [HGDP-CEPH] [17]. In short, the origins of North African populations and the number of subsequent migrations from neighboring regions have been poorly resolved.

Genomic models of admixture in human populations have largely been confined to cases of two-way admixture such as African-American [18]–[20] and some Hispanic-Latino groups such as Mexican-Americans [21]–[23]. However, a two-population model is likely inappropriate for North African populations [as it is for some Caribbean groups such as Puerto Ricans [24]] given multiple putative migrations proposed in earlier studies. Moreover, while African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino have ancestries from highly divergent source populations, North Africans may have ancestry from more closely related populations, for example Europeans and Near Easterners. We extend a principal component analysis-based [PCA] method of local ancestry assignment [20] in order to allow for three possible ancestral populations. With haplotypes for various ancestries inferred from PCA-based assignment, we model the time and mode of migrations from neighboring regions into North Africa.


Results

Population Structure across North Africa

In order to characterize population structure across North Africa, we combined our genotype data for the seven North African populations with population samples from western Africa, eastern Africa, Europe and the Near East [see Materials and Methods]. A representative subset of these samples is displayed in Figure 1 and Figure 2. We applied both classic multidimensional scaling [MDS] with an LD-reduced set of 280 K SNPs on the identity by state [IBS] matrix and an unsupervised clustering algorithm, ADMIXTURE [25], to explore patterns of population structure. In ADMIXTURE, we explored k = 2 through 10 ancestral populations to investigate how assumptions regarding k impact our inference of population structure in North Africa. Log likelihoods for successively increasing levels of k continue to increase substantially as k increases [Figure S1B]. However, visualization of k = 10 indicates that very high order clusters pulled out related individuals in the Tunisian Berber sample [Figure S1]; for this reason we focus on k = 2 through 8.

Our North African population samples are clearly differentiated from other African populations [Figure 1, Figure 2]. MDS component 1 separates sub-Saharan Africans from populations that currently reside outside of Africa [OOA], and the North African populations cluster closest to the Near Eastern Qatari. A subset of individuals are intermediate between the North and sub-Saharan African samples [Figure 2, Figure S2]. At k = 2 [ADMIXTURE], 80% of the ancestry in North African individuals is assigned to a cluster defined by its maximum frequency in Near Eastern and European populations [Figure 1]. MDS component 2 differentiates western from eastern sub-Saharan Africans [Figure 2A]. MDS component 3 differentiates populations thought to have a high degree of autochthonous ancestry [i.e. Tunisian Berbers and Saharawi] from populations outside of Africa. Interestingly, the MDS component 3 appears to be largely independent of the amount of sub-Saharan ancestry [Figure 2B] and North Africans are dispersed along the MDS component 3 axis, with the Tunisian Berbers occupying the extreme end of this gradient.

A gradient also appears in the higher k ancestral population plots of the ADMIXTURE analysis [Figure 1]. Assuming 4 or more ancestral populations [k = 4 through 10, Figure S1] there is a cline of putative autochthonous North African ancestry decreasing in frequency from Western Sahara eastward to Egypt. We refer to this North African ancestral component as the “Maghrebi” throughout the remainder of the paper, reflecting the primary geographic distribution of this ancestry in the Maghreb: West Sahara, Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. The west-to-east decline in Maghrebi assignment is only interrupted by the Tunisian Berbers, who are assigned nearly 100% Maghrebi ancestry. The Tunisian Berbers further separate as a distinct population cluster at k = 8. An opposite cline of ancestry appears to originate in the Near East [i.e. Qatari Arabs] and decreases into Egypt and westward across North Africa [k = 6, 8].

At k = 6 through 8, all North African populations except for Tunisians have sub-Saharan ancestry, present in most individuals, though this ancestry varies between 1%–55%. Interestingly, eastern populations [i.e. Libya and Egypt] share ancestry assigned to both the Bantu-speaking Luhya and the Nilotic-speaking Maasai, whereas western populations share ancestry mainly with the Luhya. Of note is that the South Moroccan and western Saharan populations contain considerable variation across individuals in the amount of sub-Saharan ancestry [see also [14], [26]], consistent with recent admixture.

Divergence between North Africans and Neighboring Populations

We estimate Fst by comparing each of the North African populations to the Tuscans and Qatari respectively. Estimates range between 0.035–0.063 [Figure 3]. In order to quantify population divergence among these groups, we use the relationship between Fst and the effective size “Ne” to estimate the divergence time “t” [see Materials and Methods]. Since this model neglects migration, we expect our results to form a lower bound on the population divergence time, as similar levels of population divergence would require a longer separation in the presence of migration. Additionally, the model assumes that populations have had similar demographic histories [i.e. if there was a bottleneck, all populations were affected equally]; as all populations derive the majority of their ancestry from an Out-of-Africa ancestral population, and the OOA bottleneck is the primary signature in OOA populations, we believe this assumption is valid. Estimates for population Ne were taken from Li et al. [17]. All estimates of population divergence between the North Africans and the European/Near Eastern samples predate the Holocene.
We then attempted to obtain more accurate estimates of divergence time by controlling for recent migration. We calculated a second set of Fst estimates using cluster-based allele frequencies from ADMIXTURE among the Maghrebi, European and Near Eastern ancestries, when we considered higher order k = 5:8 ancestral clusters. As indicated in Figure 3, population divergence between the Maghrebi and the European and Near Eastern populations occurred between 18,000–38,000 ya. The bounds here represent variation in ancestral k estimates and assumptions regarding Ne, as Near Eastern populations have a greater estimated Ne than European. Although these divergence time estimates may not be precise, as they do not adequately model ancient migration, they do suggest that the population divergence between the ancestral Maghrebi population and neighboring Mediterranean populations occurred at least 12,000 ya and indeed more likely predated even the Last Glacial Maximum.

Within Population History

Given the complex patterns of admixture apparent from population structure analyses, we asked if populations differed in the proportion of DNA that individuals within populations shared identically. We estimate the amount of DNA shared identically by descent [IBD] using the GERMLINE software [27], with a 5 cM threshold to eliminate false positive IBD matches. The estimated cumulative amount of IBD between pairs of individuals within each population is illustrated in Figure 4 with the Tunisians, Saharawi, and North Moroccans. Most of our North African populations shared little IBD or displayed an exponential-like decline in the cumulative amount of IBD, indicating that the great majority of individuals in these populations were only distantly related [i.e. had less IBD than predicted in third cousins]. However, the Tunisian Berber population displayed an excess of pairs of individuals sharing 200–1200 cM IBD. This bimodal distribution indicates that many 1st and 2nd cousin genetic equivalent pairs were present in this sample, even though donors declared themselves to be unrelated during the sampling process. Analysis of long runs of homozygosity [ROH] indicate that the Tunisian population averaged almost twice as much of their genome is in ROH than other North African populations, 230 Kb versus 120 Kb respectively [Figure S3]. The pattern of ROH and pairwise IBD in the Tunisian Berbers is likely the result of endogamy due to geographic isolation or cultural marriage preferences.
Local Ancestry Assignment across the Genome

Our cluster-based analysis identified five distinct ancestries in North Africa that we refer to as: Maghrebi, European, Near Eastern, eastern and western sub-Saharan Africa. In order to test whether sub-Saharan African ancestry was an ancient or recent migration signature, we considered the length of sub-Saharan haplotypes. First, to assign local, ancestry-specific haplotypes across a genome, we implemented a new principal component-based admixture deconvolution approach [PCADMIX] for three ancestral populations [see Materials and Methods, Figure S4] [20], [28]. We focus on admixed populations at either end of North Africa, specifically our population samples of South Moroccans and Egyptians.

PCADMIX requires predefined ancestral groups. For this purpose, we assume South Moroccans have ancestry from three primary sources: Maghrebi ancestry [e.g. Saharawi], eastern Bantu-speakers [e.g. Luhya] and European [e.g. Spanish Basque] [Figure 5A]. We similarly assume Egyptians have ancestry from four primary source populations: Maghrebi [e.g. Saharawi], eastern Nilotic-speakers [e.g. Maasai], Near Eastern Arabs [e.g. Qatari] and European [e.g. Spanish Basque]. These source populations reflect the ancestry assigned in our clustering algorithm analysis [Figure 1]. According to our ADMIXTURE results, two distinct sub-Saharan ancestries are present in Egyptian individuals at k = 6:10; these two ancestry components are highest in the Kenyan Luhya and Maasai populations. However, the “Luhya” ancestry is present at very low proportions, below 10% at k = 6 and below 5% at k = 8 and there is also “Luhya” ancestry detectable in Maasai populations. Thus, we chose the Maasai as the best ancestral sub-Saharan population for extant Egyptians.
If our choice of source populations for an admixed individual is accurate [i.e. the source populations are reasonable representatives of an ancestral population] we expect similar estimates of ancestry proportions between PCADMIX-ADMIXTURE when ancestry in PCADMIX is assigned with a posterior probability threshold of 0.8 [, Figure 5, Figure S5]. We used the Saharawi as our proxy Maghrebi population, since the high relatedness in the Tunisian samples is likely to cause reduced ability to infer Maghrebi tracts in more diverse populations. Our sample of Tunisian Berbers retains the highest amount of Maghrebi ancestry, without substantial evidence of admixture with sub-Saharan, European or Near Eastern populations. However, their bimodal mean IBD distribution [Figure 4A] indicates a high proportion of 1st–2nd cousin equivalents and suggest that our sample of Tunisian Berbers comes from an isolated, endogamous population with diversity that is likely reduced relative to other Maghrebi populations. Thus, although their low degree of non-Maghrebi admixture might make them ideal as a Maghrebi source population, reduced haplotypic diversity means that we are likely to under-call true Maghrebi segments from other, more diverse populations. This expectation was borne out in our PCA-based admixture deconvolution of southern Moroccans when comparing Tunisian versus Saharawi as a Maghrebi source population [Figure S6]. We note that when using either the Tunisian Berbers or the Saharawi, the Maghrebi component in other individuals [e.g. Egyptian, South Moroccan] tended to be underestimated in comparison to the ADMIXTURE proportions [Figure 5A, Table S2]. We also infer independent admixture proportions in the Algerian, South Moroccan and Saharawi samples by running LAMP [29] to estimate local ancestry using 3 source populations: Tunisians, Basque and Luhya; with LAMP we also observe a likely excess of inferred European ancestry in the Algerian, South Moroccan and Saharawi samples [7].

Migration Parameters

The length of tracts assigned to distinct ancestries in an individual is informative regarding the time and mode of migration from one ancestral population into another. After a migrant chromosome enters a population, the length of the migrant ancestry tract is broken down over time due to the process of recombination. We use a maximum likelihood approach developed by Pool and Nielsen [30] to estimate the time of change in migration rate between populations based on the length and number of migrant tracts in the absorbing sink [or “admixed”] population.

We first consider a continuous migration model where migration occurs at a constant rate from T generations ago to present day. We assume that there has been no migration between the source and sink populations prior to the initial time of a migration into the admixed population. We tabulate the number of migrant tracts in the Moroccans and Egyptians, where each migrant tract has a posterior probability >0.8. To reduce biases due to our lower sensitivity to short tracts, we only modeled tracts longer than 3 cM, and considered assigned tracts with posterior probability >0.8. With a 3 cM cutoff we expect to capture 50% of tracts from 55 generations ago and 10% of tracts from 130 generations ago [see Materials and Methods]. Unassigned short tracts [i.e. the “undecided” regions, Figure 5B and Figure 6] within a long continuous migrant segment can be artificially shortened by spikes of low posterior probability. Unassigned tracts that were situated within a tract of one ancestry and which maintained a posterior probability >0.5 for the same neighboring ancestry were considered to as one long ancestry tract.


We focus on the sub-Saharan African migrant tracts in South Moroccans [Figure 5B] and Egyptians [Figure 6]. These tracts tend to be highly diverged from other ancestries in the population [Fst>0.10] and populations with similar divergence resulted in accurate haplotype assignment in prior testing [28]. Under a model of constant migration from the Bantu-speaking Kenyans and southern Moroccans started about 41 generations ago [ga] [95% CI: 39–44ga] assuming there was no migration occurring prior to this period. The confidence interval calculations, obtained by resampling sub-Saharan migrant tracts with replacement, do not take into account possible biases caused, for example, by the model assumption of a fixed migration rate.

Constant Versus Episodic Migration

We hypothesized that the distribution of sub-Saharan African tracts in the Moroccans and Egyptians might better reflect a single episode or “pulse” of migration. In order to test this hypothesis, we modify Pool and Nielsen's [30] approach to conform to a pulse model [see Materials and Methods]. We compared the log likelihoods summed over all migrant tracts under constant and pulse migration models for each population maximized over the relevant parameters, and present the model with the higher log likelihood [Table 1]. Estimates of the time of migration are more recent under a pulse model. The younger estimate occurs because the model fit must account for relatively long migrant tracts in the data; under a constant migration model these tracts represent recent migrants, but for a single episode of migration, long tracts can only be accounted for by recent migration of the entire sample. In order for the average migrant tract length to be equal in the two models, migration must have started more than twice as long ago in the constant migration model compared to the pulse model [Table 1]. Our Egyptian sample of Nilotic segments [derived from Maasai] has a better log likelihood under a pulse migration model, estimated as time since admixture of 24ga [95% CI: 23–26ga] rather than 51ga under a constant migration model [Table 1].


Discussion

Out of Africa and Back Again?

By sampling multiple populations along an approximate transect across North Africa, we were able to identify gradients in ancestry along an east-west axis [Figure 1 and Figure 2]. Notably, even northwestern populations with very high proportions of Maghrebi ancestry, such as the Tunisians and Saharawi, still cluster with Out-of-Africa populations in the population structure analyses [Figure 1 [k = 2], Figure 2]. This observation of clustering formed the basis for further analyses to distinguish between two alternative demographic models. First, North Africans could be closer to OOA populations due to extensive gene flow, likely from the Near East, over the past ~50 Kya. Second, North Africans could be closer to OOA populations if the two groups had diverged more recently than either had split with sub-Saharan Africans.

We can reject a simple model of long-term continuous gene flow between the Near East and North Africa, as evidenced by clear geographic structure and non-zero Fst estimates. Fst estimates between the inferred Maghrebi cluster and sub-Saharan Africans are two to three-times greater than Fst between the Maghrebi and Europeans/Near Easterners ancestral clusters [Table S3]. We then address whether this population structure was recent or ancient. Although Fst estimates from ascertained data may be biased, as rare alleles are under-represented in the site frequency spectrum, comparison of African-European Fst from resequencing data and the Affymetrix 500 K platform showed only a negligible difference [31]. Assuming reasonable effective population sizes for North African Maghrebi and neighboring populations [17], we first showed that all North African populations are estimated to have diverged from OOA groups more than 12,000 ya [Figure 3]. After accounting for putative recent admixture [Figure 1], the indigenous Maghrebi component [k-based] is estimated to have diverged from Near Eastern/Europeans between 18–38 Kya [Figure 3], under a range of Ne and k values. We hence suggest that the ancestral Maghrebi population separated from Near Eastern/Europeans prior to the Holocene, and that the Maghrebi populations do not represent a large-scale demic diffusion of agropastoralists from the Near East.

With model parameters for divergence approximately estimated, we then ask whether North African ancestral populations were part of the initial OOA exit and then returned to Africa [8], or if an in situ model of population persistence for the past 50 Kya is more likely [with variable episodes of migration from the Near East]? We can address this question only indirectly with contemporary samples; however, several auxiliary observations point toward the former hypothesis. Substantially elevated linkage disequilibrium in all of these North African population samples, compared to sub-Saharan populations [32], is consistent with a population bottleneck. Hellenthal et al. [30] also observed that the reduction in the number of haplotype founders required to reconstruct the Mozabite population, as compared to other African populations, could be explained by a population bottleneck. If North African ancestral populations persisted in situ, then we need to invoke two population bottlenecks, one in the ancestors of North Africans [including the Berbers] and one for OOA groups. Alternatively, the “OOA” bottleneck would need to occur in North Africa, rather than when groups moved out of the continent [33]. The second possibility appears at odds with most published models of the movement of modern humans outside of Africa.

A scenario where North African Maghrebi ancestry is the result of in situ population absorbing Near Eastern migrants would likely need the following premises to explain the results here and elsewhere: a] an Out-of-Africa migration [concurrent with bottleneck] occurs 50–60 Kya, geographically dividing North African and Near Eastern populations; b] North Africans experience a separate bottleneck; c] gene flow maintains similarity between the two geographically distinct populations; d] the gene flow then ceases or slows roughly between 12–40 Kya in order to allow sufficiently distinct allele frequency distributions to form. In contrast, we find it more parsimonious to describe model where: a] an OOA migration occurs [concurrent with a bottleneck]; b] OOA populations and North Africans diverge between 12–40 Kya when a migration back-to-Africa occurs. These models should be further tested with genomic sequence data, which have better power to detect magnitude and timing of bottlenecks, and to estimate the true joint allele frequency spectrum.

More recently, the substantial, east-to-west decline of Near Eastern ancestry [Figure 1A] could represent a defined migration associated with Arab conquest 1,400 ya or merely gene flow occurring gradually among neighboring populations along a North African | Arabian Peninsula transect. Although we observe a declining amount of Maghrebi ancestry from northwest-to-northeast, it is possible that other geographically North African samples [e.g. Egyptians further south than the sampled Siwa Oasis] do not conform to this geographic cline. Finally, we also observe European ancestry that is not clearly accounted for by the inclusion of a Near Eastern sample. Additional migration coming from Europe might be plausible, though the origin and the period where it took place cannot be determined with the present data. The less than 25% European ancestry in populations like Algerians and northern Moroccans could trace back to maritime migrations throughout the Mediterranean [34]. Alternatively, the Qatari could represent a poor proxy for an Arabic source population, causing additional diversity to be assigned European [e.g. European ancestry tracts were not reliably assigned as European with PCADMIX].

In summary, although paleoanthropological evidence has established the ancient presence of anatomically modern humans in northern Africa prior to 60,000 ya [35], the simplest interpretation of our results is that the majority of ancestry in modern North Africans derives from populations outside of Africa, through at least two episodes of increased gene flow during the past 40,000 years [Figure 1, Figure 2, Figure 3].

Reconstructing Multiple Admixed Ancestries

Multiple local ancestry assignment methods, including PCADMIX, require thinning genotype datasets to remove alleles in high linkage disequilibrium between populations [29], [36]; this step discards information regarding haplotype patterns that tend to be more informative than genotypes when using data biased by SNP ascertainment [37]. HAPMIX incorporates both LD information and uncertainty in phase inference for haplotypes [18], but the software is currently limited to a two-population model. Our ancestral proportions of European and sub-Saharan ancestry for many North Africans at k = 2 [Figure 1] are similar to those obtained with HAPMIX by Price et al. [18] for the HGDP Algerian Mozabites, assuming a two-population mixture of northern Europeans and Yoruba. However, our results show that increasing the number of possible ancestral populations reveals multiple, diverse ancestries [e.g. Maghrebi, Near Eastern, Nilotic] and that the proportion of sub-Saharan African assignment decreases as these other ancestries are accounted for. This decrease in assigned sub-Saharan ancestry in North African samples, from a k = 2 model, is consistent with an interpretation that Maghrebi or Near Eastern diversity that is not present in the panel populations is more likely to be assigned to the more diverse, Sub-Saharan African ancestry. Using a two-population admixture model, Price et al. [18] estimated the time of migration from sub-Saharan Africa into the Mozabites to have begun about 100 generations ago [or more]. Our results suggest that sub-Saharan African and Maghreb admixture is considerably more recent, 24–41 generations ago [and even the upper 95% CI estimate under either model is 55ga, Table 1]. The discrepancy between these two estimates may result from our incorporation of multiple source populations, our use of non-linear models to estimate migration timing and the elimination, in Price et al. [18], of individuals with megabase long African segments.

Time of Migration Estimation

We use a two-population model of migration where we measure the number and length of migrant tracts observed in the admixed population. However, as argued earlier, North African populations have absorbed migrants from multiple episodes of migration. We use three- and four-population admixture deconvolution to identify the tracts from these separate migrations. One complication with this approach is the possibility that source populations that contribute migrants to North Africa are themselves exchanging migrants. For example, Near Eastern populations expanded into European continent during the Neolithic, and even an isolated population like the Spanish Basque may have genomic segments that trace back to the Neolithic expansion [38], [39]. In this case, estimation of the time of migration of Arabic individuals into North Africa would be biased by Basque segments of Arab ancestry that were contributed by Europeans, but are locally assigned to Arabic ancestry. We confine our migration estimates to those from sub-Saharan populations into North Africans because there has likely been relatively little recent gene flow between sub-Saharan Africans and the European/Near Eastern populations. Moorjani et al. [40] present evidence for recent gene flow [<100 generations ago] from Africa to the Near East and Europe. But, they hypothesize it might be due to North African migrations, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.

Migration Implications

Assuming a 30-year generation time [41], the proposed migration of sub-Saharans to southern Morocco at about 1,200 years ago coincides with the rise of the Ghana Empire, involved in the trans-Saharan slave trading, and the “Great Berber Uprising” which established Berber kingdoms throughout Morocco. We use a Bantu-speaking population from Kenya as a source population for this migration, as North African individuals with sub-Saharan ancestry appeared to be closer to the Luhya than the Nigerian Yoruba [Figure 1, Figure 2 and Figure S2]. However, there are likely other western African populations genetically similar to Kenyan Bantu-speakers. We do not interpret this association as an explicit migration from Kenya to southern Morocco. We also use the length of Nilotic tracts in Egyptians to ask if sub-Saharan ancestry [apparent in Figure 1 and Figure 6] also appears to be a recent introduction. Under a pulse model of migration, a significant increase in gene flow likely occurred ~700 ya, after the Arabic expansion into North Africa 1,400 ya. Our migration results are in agreement with previous studies based on mtDNA analysis where gene flow into eastern and western North Africa appeared to have different sub-Saharan population sources [10], [16].

Conclusion

Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa. Population structure in North Africa is particularly complex, and future disease or phenotypic studies should carefully account for local demographic history. However, the rich history of gene flow can also help empower genome-wide association mapping via admixture mapping techniques [42]. For example, the variable but relatively long haplotypes of sub-Saharan ancestry are amenable to admixture mapping approaches developed for African-American samples. In conclusion, North African populations retain a unique signature of early “Maghrebi” ancestry, but North African populations are not a homogenous group and most display varying combinations of five distinct ancestries.
 

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Materials and Methods
Samples and Data Generation
A total of 152 individuals representing seven different North African locations and the Basque Country were included in the present study. Informed consent was obtained from all of them. Samples were genotyped on the Affymetrix 6.0 chip, and after quality control filtering for missing loci and close relatives, 125 individuals remained: 18 from North Morocco, 16 from South Morocco, 18 from Western Sahara, 19 from Algeria, 18 from Tunisia, 17 from Libya and 19 from Egypt. Further information on the samples may be found in Table S1. Moreover, 20 individuals from the Spanish Basque country were included in the analysis. Data are publicly available at: bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/. In order to study the population structure and the genetic influence of migrants in the region a database was built including African and European populations from HapMap3 [43], western Africa [20], and 20 Qatari from the Arabian Peninsula [44] as Near Eastern representatives. Written informed consent was obtained from the participants and analyses were performed anonymously. The project obtained the ethics approval from the Institutional Review Board of the institution involved in the sampling [Comitè Ètic d'Investigació Clínica - Institut Municipal d'Assistència Sanitària [CEIC-IMAS] in Barcelona, Spain].
Population Structure
An unsupervised clustering algorithm, ADMIXTURE [25], was run on our seven new North African populations, Spanish Basque, Near Eastern Qatari, western Africans, HapMap3 Kenyan Luhya, Maasai and Italian Tuscans. Nine ancestral clusters [k = 2 through 10] in total were tested successively. Log likelihoods for each k clusters are available in Figure S1B. Fst based on allele frequencies was calculated in ADMIXTURE for each identified cluster at k = 8. Given the high heterogeneity in Qatari population, we present individuals with the lowest sub-Saharan, European and North African ancestries and higher Near Eastern ancestry, based on ADMIXTURE. Multidimensional scaling [MDS] was applied to the pairwise IBS Matrix of 279,528 SNPs using PLINK 1.07 software [45]. The top three MDS components were plotted together using R 2.11.1. Population divergence estimates from the cluster-based allele frequencies from ADMIXTURE [k = 5–8] were obtained using [46]:


The cluster-based allele frequencies will be less biased by recent migration between populations. Estimates of population divergence, though potentially older if migration is unaccounted for in the Fst estimate, are unlikely to be younger if the range of Ne sizes is realistic.
Phasing
In previous work, imputation accuracy was tested in a sample of Algerian Mozabites and other populations from the Human Genome Diversity Project [HGDP-CEPH] [37]. Among all the African populations, the Mozabites had the poorest imputation accuracy when the sub-Saharan Yoruban sample was used to predict allele states [37]. For this reason, we used multiple populations for phase inference. North African, Qatari and Basque genotypes were phased using BEAGLE 3.0 software [47]. Phased haplotypes from three HapMap3 populations [i.e. Maasai, Yoruba, and Tuscans] were used as seeds for haploype inference; each HapMap3 population was randomly sub-sampled for 30 individuals each in order to prevent over-representation of haplotypes from a single geographic region. The Basque, Qatari and all North African populations were phased with the same three seed populations to prevent discrepancies based solely on different haplotype seeds.
Inference of IBD
We estimate the amount of DNA shared identically by descent [IBD] using the GERMLINE software [27], with a 5 cM threshold to eliminate false positive IBD matches. All 5 cM or greater segments shared IBD between pairs of individuals were summed, and histograms created for sharing within each North African population.
PCA–Based Local Ancestry Assignment
Local ancestry was assigned with a new PCA-based method, PCADMIX. This method uses phased genotype data [i.e., haplotypes] to determine exact posterior probabilities along each chromosome. PCADMIX relies on Principal Components Analysis [PCA] to quantify the information that each SNP contributes to distinguishing the ancestry of a genomic region. PCADMIX is publicly available at sites.google.com/site/PCADMIX. We use Singular Value Decomposition in R to perform PCA on the phased genotypes of the ancestral representatives. We project admixed individuals on the basis of principal components, and compute the observed ancestry “score” for a haplotype i in the jth window as the weighted average Ljgij, where gij is a column vector of the haplotype's alleles [coded as 0 or 1] in window j, standardized by the mean and standard deviation of that SNP's frequency in the ancestral populations. Lj is a matrix for which the entry in the kth row, lth column is the loading of SNP l in the window on principal component k. We use a forward-backward algorithm to identify the probability of ancestry at each window, conditional on the ancestry scores. For the forward-backward algorithm in our HMM, we used a haploid version of the transition and emission probabilities in the Viterbi algorithm of Bryc et al. [20]. The transition probability is defined by p, the probability of recombination between windows, and qj, the frequency of the target population's chromosomes in the admixing ancestral pool.
First, ancestral populations are thinned for SNPs with r2<0.8 in order to remove highly linked alleles from different populations, which can lead to spurious ancestry transitions. Second, chromosomes for each individual in a population are artificially strung together to create two haploid genomes for the individual; this step increases the amount of information used for PCA, and it is of special relevance given that Europeans, Near Easterners and North African are differentiated with an Fst of only ~0.05. Then, PCA on a number k≤3 of ancestral populations is performed and the admixed population is projected into the determined k≤3 PCA space. PC loadings are used as weights in a weighted average of the allele values in a window of 40 SNPs. These window scores are then used as observed values in a HMM to assign posterior probabilities to the ancestry in each window [where chromosome were considered separately]. Information on using PCADMIX in Egyptians is available in Figure S8. Additional performance testing and details of the implementation for this approach are available in [28], Texts S1, S2, S3 and Figure S9.
Estimates of Migration Parameters
We tabulated the length and number of genomic tracts [i.e. phased haplotypes] assigned to particular population ancestries for the South Moroccan and Egyptian population samples [see above for PCA-based local ancestry assignment]. We used a posterior probability threshold of 0.8, optimized for concordance with ADMIXTURE ancestry proportions [Figure 5A]. The maximum likelihood estimate of the time of migration is sensitive to the minimum detectable length of migrant tracts. That is, as migrant tracts recombine with non-migrants and become smaller in size, we are less likely to detect them. Histograms of the cumulative number of migrant tracts of different lengths, for all individuals, were visualized [Figure S10] and we observe a reduction in the number of short migrant tracts in the 0.5 to 1.5 cM bins, inconsistent with constant or punctual migration model. Rather, this reduction can be understood as a reduction in our ability to detect short migrant segments due to insufficient SNP density or haplotype variation that is not present in our source population. We therefore choose a 3 cM threshold as the minimal length of migrant tracts to be considered. Theoretically, under an isolation followed by migration model and with a 3 cM tract length threshold, we have power to detect relatively recent migrations occurring within the past generations [30].
We modify Pool and Nielsen [30] equation 10, with for the likelihood that a segment is of length Morgans given that it is longer than the cutoff length in a model with constant migration rate starting at time in a chromosome of length . Similarly, we estimated a likelihood of for punctuated migration occurring generations ago, which neglects chromosomal edge effects, an approximation justified by the fact that for a large majority of tracts.
Supporting Information
Figure S1.
A] ADMIXTURE results for k = 10 ancestral clusters in our North African populations, Spanish Basque, Near Eastern Qatari, western Africans, HapMap3 Kenyan Luhya and Maasai and Italian Tuscans. B] Log likelihoods for each of the k clusters tested.
[TIF]
Figure S2.
We used multidimensional scaling [MDS] to discriminate clusters of genetic variation within Africa and neighboring regions. MDS was applied to the pairwise, individual identity-by-state [IBS] matrix of 279,500 SNPs using PLINK 1.07 software [45]. The component 3 versus 4 [A] and component 1 versus component 2 versus component 3 [B] were plotted together using R 2.11.1. Population colors match Figure S1A [k = 10]. North African populations are all indicated in turquoise.
[TIF]
Figure S3.
Long runs of homozygosity compared across North African populations and neighbors. –homozyg –homozyg-window-kb 5000 –homozyg-window-het 1 –homozyg-window-missing 1 –homozyg-snp 25 –homozyg-kb 500 –homozyg-gap 100.
[TIF]
Figure S4.
Implementation of PCADMIX. A] A principal components analysis is first run for k = 3 ancestral populations. The proportion of Population A's ancestry in an admixed individual is estimated by: a given haplotype's [black square] distance from the line connecting the means of PCA1 and PC2 for the two other populations, as a proportion of the haplotype's distance from all edges. B] Simulated ancestry assignment with and without LD filtering. The black arrow indicates a region of simulated European ancestry that is incorrectly classified [at a posterior probability calling threshold of 0.9] as African when no linkage disequilbrium [LD] filtering is used, and whose ancestry is left undecided when LD filtering is implemented [r2<0.8].
[TIF]
Figure S5.
Comparison of ADMIXTURE and PCADMIX ancestry estimations in [A] South Moroccans and [B] Egyptians. In both cases PCADMIX was required to assign ancestry with a posterior probability of 0.95. The 0.95 threshold substantially reduces the proportion of the genome assigned by PCADMIX. In South Moroccans, the reduction in assigned ancestry occurs primarily in the European and to a lesser extent in the Berber component. For the Egyptians, the reduction in assigned ancestry is dramatically reduce Near Eastern [or Arabic] ancestry.
[TIF]
Figure S6.
A] PCADMIX applied to a South Moroccan individual using Saharawi, Basques and Luhyan as ancestral populations. Segments are assigned to ancestries with a posterior probability higher than 0.8. B] PCADMIX applied to the same South Moroccan individual as in A] using Tunisian, Basque and Luhya as the ancestral populations. Segments are assigned to ancestries with a posterior probability higher than 0.8.
[TIF]
Figure S7.
We capture admixture proportions by independently running LAMP [29] for estimating local ancestry using the Tunisian Berber, European Basque and sub-Saharan Luhya source populations. Sub-Saharan ancestry appears concordant with ADMIXTURE and PCADMIX. Tracts of “Maghrebi” ancestry appear shorter than those inferred in PCADMIX, although this may be attributed to the use of the high Maghrebi but low diversity Tunisian Berbers. Results are shown for chromosome 1 [A] and X chromosome [B].
[TIF]
Figure S8.
Shown is the admixture deconvolution for chromosome 1 using PCADMIX for 19 Egyptian individuals [n = 38]. Initially we assigned ancestry for k = 3 ancestral populations [Maghreb: SAH, European: BAS, Sub-Saharan: MKK] using a 0.8 posterior probability threshold, shown in [A,B]. Then we assumed a different set of 3 ancestral populations [Maghreb: SAH, European: BAS, Near Eastern: QAT] shown in [C,D]. In the third step, we assumed the Sub-Saharan ancestry, assigned in A, represented truly divergent sub-Saharan haplotypes given the high Fst between this ancestry and all others. E] We layered these haplotypes on top of [C] [Maghreb, European, Near Eastern] deconvoluted chromosomes.
[TIF]
Figure S9.
A] We present the average assigned ancestry [>0.8 posterior probability] across chromosome 1 for each of 4 ancestries assigned in the Egyptians: Maghrebi [Saharawi], European [Basque], Near Eastern [Qatari], Sub-Saharan [Maasai].
[TIF]
Figure S10.
A] Distribution of the number and length in centimorgans of migrant Sub-Saharan [Luhya] tracts distributed by length found in the South Moroccan population. B] Distribution of the number and length in centimorgans of migrant Sub-Saharan [Maasai] tracts distributed by length found in the Egyptian population. Red bar indicates the minimum threshold cutoff employed in the migration parameter analysis. Please note the different scales along the X-axis.
[TIF]
Table S1.
Name, sample size and country of origin for populations newly genotyped in the present study as well as for populations published previously. References are included in the table.
[DOC]
Table S2.
Additional estimates of Fst after removed putative admixture events.
[DOC]
Table S3.
Significance of the comparisons of ancestry assignment using PCADMIX and ADMIXTURE.
[DOC]
Text S1.
Assigning local ancestry with PCADMIX.
[DOC]
Text S2.
Concordance between ADMIXTURE and PCADMIX.
[DOC]
Text S3.
Chromosome 1 Ancestry Deviations.
[DOC]













 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ha! Ha! Ha! He! He! He!

They just won’t give up. Don’t these people have any pride and decency. With their selective sampling and BS.

AGAIN!!

Even the whore Hawass now reluctantly admits QUOTE:

"Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2⇓)."

--Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268

quote:

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summary:

"Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2⇓)."

--Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268


Haplogroup E1b1a (now known as E-M2) is an
African DNA group, most commonly found in sub-Saharan Africa QUOTE:

"Haplogroup E1b1 now contains two basal branches, E-V38 (E1b1a) and E-M215 (E1b1b), with V38/V100 joining the two previously separated lineages E-M2 (former E1b1a) and E-M329 (former E1b1c). Each of these two lineages has a peculiar geographic distribution. E-M2 is the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, with frequency peaks in western (about 80%) and central Africa (about 60%)."

--Trombetta et al 2011. A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2)
PLoS ONE 6(1): e16073.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
That is one of the reasons why I decided to ignore the village idiot. After that brief discussion on People of Lerna it is clear he doesn’t know what he is talking about. To suggest that Cro-magnon man morphed into Caucasoids then these Caucasoids entered Africa through Iberia, populated North Africa and East Africa, then formed ancient North/East African civilizations then re-entered Europe creating Crete(Greece) and Estrucia(Rome) is not only laughable but downright twisted. Delusional.



The Language, Culture, Morphology and Archeology tells the opposite. Now modern genetics has aligned with the said Language, Culture etc.





This table tells the story.











V-88 (Rib1b1c) is not only African, it is much older than R1b1b2a(European lineage). So when you read these studies about R1b lineage the first question you have to ask yourself as an intelligent reader is “what is the resolution and what branch of R1b tree is the test subject”? Because it is only through high resolution one can tell the African R1b and the European R1b. Euronuts purposely cite R1b, the tree, to confuse the reader into thinking it is European. They purposely refuse to cite the branch. It is all trickery and lies. Some of us are now catching and exposing them.



When they are cornered they then try to wiggle their way out of it and talk about Eurasian back migration yet there is no evidence of such ancient migration activity. Why??? The North African have a higher frequency of African R1b(V-88) than European R1b(R1b1b2a2). Using THEIR hypothesis of age combined with frequency, It looks like there was an ancient population of R1b*that existed in maybe the Sahel region (Cameroon/Mali). These people migrated out from there. Some lineage died out. Even the modern Egyptians carry more R1b (African) than R1b (European). See table. I am not making this shyte up!!



So, no, Cro-Magnon did not enter North Africa. Try it the other way around; the older lineage entered Southern Europe from North Africa. This is why eye ball anthropology is unreasonable and bizarre, and should be ignored. Eye-ball anthropology is for those with limited reading comprehension. Some North African groups did not get their ‘features’ due to admixture from Europeans but most likely the other way around. Europeans are decedents of North Africans and maybe East Africans. WAIT!!! LOL! That was published already(Sergi, Smith, Angel, Evans etc)!!!



That is why genetics is now changing the way we view evolution and migration of humans out of Africa.





No! Caucasoids did not enter Africa, but the other way around, Caucasoids entered Europe from Africa!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Repeat after me....

lineage!, lineage! lineage!, lineage! lineage!, lineage!

PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2
L2*, L1*, L3*, L0*,L2*, L1*, L3*, L0*,L2*, L1*, L3*, L0*
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
BTW - you do know why their last resort is autosomal studies?

Quote from the study: "we present analysis of autosomal single nucleotide polymorphism [SNP]".

Selective population sampling and selective gene testing. LOL!! Give me a break!

The Berbers type people are indigenous Africans going back maybe 35,000ya. They did not migrate from anywhere because they never really left the continent except to form Crete and Iberian civilization, etc about 5000ya.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Euronuts avoid MT-DNA and Y-DNA studies because all studies so far have proven that Berbers etc are as African as "sub-saharans".

Peace out!
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^^^




________________________________________________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234393

The above-mentioned studies have thus revealed a dual influence in the genetic make-up of this African people. In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.
A total of 48% of the mtDNA haplotypes observed in the Tuareg populations could be ascribed to sub-Saharan haplogroups. Another 39%, however, were of West Eurasian ancestry (non-L types in Table 1), which is a substantial proportion considering the sub-Saharan geographical location. In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50–75% in the northernmost locations.34 The Tuareg's neighbours, however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa Arabs from North-eastern Nigeria, 7% in the Buduma from South-eastern Niger and 6% in the Kanuri from North-eastern Nigeria).35 The remaining 13% of Tuareg haplotypes belong to the typical East African haplogroup M1.

Furthermore, we noticed some differences in the distribution of West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups between Tuareg groups. Most of the West Eurasian haplogroups (30 out of 35 sequences, amounting to 6 out of 9 HVS-I haplotypes) and the East African M1 (11 out of 12 sequences but amounting to only 2 out of 3 HVS-I haplotypes) are observed in the two Tuareg populations – TGos and TGor – located within the bend of the Niger. Tuareg from the Republic of Niger, TTan, have much higher proportion of sub-Saharan (81%) haplogroups than of West Eurasian (16%) and East African (3%) ones. These differences in haplogroup distribution led to statistically significant genetic distances when comparing HVS-I haplotypes between Tuareg from Mali (TGos) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.048; unadjusted P-value=0.009), as well as Tuareg from Burkina Faso (TGor) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.064; unadjusted P-value=0.000), whereas Tuareg from Mali (TGos) and from Burkina Faso (TGor) are not statistically different (FST=0.012; unadjusted P-value=0.234). Similarly, analysis of MDS based on FST distances and using a large database of West Eurasian and African mtDNA sequences has shown a very good separation of the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian-North African gene pools (Figure 2). Only some East African populations are closer to the West Eurasian samples, respectively, to the North African populations analysed here. This picture is a good representation of FST values as the normalized raw stress is very low (0.01165). However, the analysed Tuareg populations are divided between two gene pools: like the sample from Libya,5 the groups located within the bend of Niger (TGor and TGos) fall into the West Eurasian gene pool, whereas the Tuareg from the Republic of Niger (TTan) and the Tuareg sample from the Watson's data set3, 4 are permeated by the sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool.
The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe7, 10, 17, 26, 29, 36 and most probably North Africa30, 31 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15000–13000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (Supplementary Material SM5D)
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Conclusion

Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^^




________________________________________________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234393

The above-mentioned studies have thus revealed a dual influence in the genetic make-up of this African people. In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.
A total of 48% of the mtDNA haplotypes observed in the Tuareg populations could be ascribed to sub-Saharan haplogroups. Another 39%, however, were of West Eurasian ancestry (non-L types in Table 1), which is a substantial proportion considering the sub-Saharan geographical location. In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50–75% in the northernmost locations.34 The Tuareg's neighbours, however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa Arabs from North-eastern Nigeria, 7% in the Buduma from South-eastern Niger and 6% in the Kanuri from North-eastern Nigeria).35 The remaining 13% of Tuareg haplotypes belong to the typical East African haplogroup M1.

Furthermore, we noticed some differences in the distribution of West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups between Tuareg groups. Most of the West Eurasian haplogroups (30 out of 35 sequences, amounting to 6 out of 9 HVS-I haplotypes) and the East African M1 (11 out of 12 sequences but amounting to only 2 out of 3 HVS-I haplotypes) are observed in the two Tuareg populations – TGos and TGor – located within the bend of the Niger. Tuareg from the Republic of Niger, TTan, have much higher proportion of sub-Saharan (81%) haplogroups than of West Eurasian (16%) and East African (3%) ones. These differences in haplogroup distribution led to statistically significant genetic distances when comparing HVS-I haplotypes between Tuareg from Mali (TGos) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.048; unadjusted P-value=0.009), as well as Tuareg from Burkina Faso (TGor) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.064; unadjusted P-value=0.000), whereas Tuareg from Mali (TGos) and from Burkina Faso (TGor) are not statistically different (FST=0.012; unadjusted P-value=0.234). Similarly, analysis of MDS based on FST distances and using a large database of West Eurasian and African mtDNA sequences has shown a very good separation of the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian-North African gene pools (Figure 2). Only some East African populations are closer to the West Eurasian samples, respectively, to the North African populations analysed here. This picture is a good representation of FST values as the normalized raw stress is very low (0.01165). However, the analysed Tuareg populations are divided between two gene pools: like the sample from Libya,5 the groups located within the bend of Niger (TGor and TGos) fall into the West Eurasian gene pool, whereas the Tuareg from the Republic of Niger (TTan) and the Tuareg sample from the Watson's data set3, 4 are permeated by the sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool.
The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe7, 10, 17, 26, 29, 36 and most probably North Africa30, 31 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15000–13000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (Supplementary Material SM5D)

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quote:

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A complete mandible of Homo erectus was discovered at the Thomas I quarry in Casablanca by a French-Moroccan team co-led by Jean-Paul Raynal, CNRS senior researcher at the PACEA(1) aboratory (CNRS/Université Bordeaux 1/ Ministry of Culture and Communication). This mandible is the oldest human fossil uncovered from scientific excavations in Morocco. The discovery will help better define northern Africa's possible role in first populating southern Europe.

A Homo erectus half-jaw had already been found at the Thomas I quarry in 1969, but it was a chance discovery and therefore with no archeological context.


This is not the case for the fossil discovered May 15, 2008, whose characteristics are very similar to those of the half-jaw found in 1969. The morphology of these remains is different from the three mandibles found at the Tighenif site in Algeria that were used, in 1963, to define the North African variety of Homo erectus, known as Homo mauritanicus, dated to 700,000 B.C.


The mandible from the Thomas I quarry was found in a layer below one where the team has previously found four human teeth (three premolars and one incisor) from Homo erectus, one of which was dated to 500,000 B.C. The human remains were grouped with carved stone tools characteristic of the Acheulian(2) civilization and numerous animal remains (baboons, gazelles, equines, bears, rhinoceroses, and elephants), as well as large numbers of small mammals, which point to a slightly older time frame. Several dating methods are being used to refine the chronology.

The Thomas I quarry in Casablanca confirms its role as one of the most important prehistoric sites for understanding the early population of northwest Africa. The excavations that CNRS and the Institut National des Sciences de l’Archéologie et du Patrimoine du Maroc have led there since 1988 are part of a French-Moroccan collaboration. They have been jointly financed by the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs(3), the Department of Human Evolution at the Max Plank Institute in Leipzig (Germany), INSAP(4)(Morocco) and the Aquitaine region.

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Photo 1 – Photograph of the fossil human mandible discovered May 15, 2008 at the Thomas I quarry site in Casablanca.




Photo 2 – Jean-Paul Raynal and Professor Fatima-Zohra Sbihi-Alaoui from the Institut National des Sciences de l'Archéologie et du Patrimoine (INSAP-Rabat) free the fossil mandible..fr)



Notes:
1) De la Préhistoire à l'Actuel : Culture, Environnement et Anthropologie (From Prehistory to Present day: Culture, Environment, and Anthropology)
2) Acheulians appeared in Africa around 1.5 million years ago and disappeared about 300,000 years ago, giving way to Middle Stone Age civilizations. Their material culture is characterized by the production of large stone fragments shaped into bifacial pieces and hatchets, and of large sharp-edged objects.
3) (Mission archéologique « littoral » Maroc, led by J.P. Raynal).
4) (INSAP-Rabat) which falls under the authority of the Moroccan Ministry of Cultural Affairs.


Dental Evidence from the Aterian Human Populations of Morocco

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~bioanth/tanya_smith/pdf/Hublin_et_al_2012.pdf
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
we already covered Libyan Tuaregs look at the main Genomic Ancestry article at the top of the thread
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
we already covered Libyan Tuaregs look at the main Genomic Ancestry article at the top of the thread

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] we already covered Libyan Tuaregs look at the main Genomic Ancestry article at the top of the thread

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Who is "we". And it wasn't covered already. All you do it post the same articles over and over again. You have posted this same thing at least 5 times. With lacking sufficient interpretation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Since you don't get it, let me break it down for you.

Identification/Population Affinity can be determined by several genetic methods.

(Keep in mind in the old days there were other methods – which are still valid. Cranoimetrically, dentition, limb proportion etc)

Genetically, there are three primary methods.
1. Lineage ie Y-DNA, Mt-DNA
2. STR – Tells what geographic region of the world the individual is from.
3. SNP – still being formalized. But criss-crosses geographic boundaries.

1. Lineage is still the most reliable. Why? Most people still live where their ancestors have lived for thousands of years.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] we already covered Libyan Tuaregs look at the main Genomic Ancestry article at the top of the thread

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Who is "we". And it wasn't covered already. All you do it post the same articles over and over again. You have posted this same thing at least 5 times. With lacking sufficient interpretation.

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Each time it was posted people including you had the opprtunity comment and did. That's why it has been covered already.
I posted Libyan Tuareg again it for xxxyman because he wasn't in those threads commenting on it
A lot of the details in this Genomic Ancestry article have not been discussed as much and I posted a lot more of it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QUOTE]ry of Cultural Affairs.


Dental Evidence from the Aterian Human Populations of Morocco

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~bioanth/tanya_smith/pdf/Hublin_et_al_2012.pdf

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Tsk! Tsk Tsk! Are you listening to yourself?

Quote: "Many Copts are a shade of BROWN and LOOKED mixed". Ha! Ha!

Still don't get how nature/evolution works? I assumed your crew had a higher level of education maybe I am mistaken.

I will make it simply. How a person LOOK could be a result of (1) admixture or (2) they evolved to look that way. That is their natural look.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Interesting paper....this is the only scenaro that makes geographic sense. I always contend that the forest belt was primarily inhabited by Biaka type peoples. Newer Africans eg E1b1a are recent arrivals from the North. Wasn't it Gatto et al who showed the so-called Bantu type occupied the Green Sahara along with the Berber type.

Quote: "However, the
extant geographical conditions present a biased picture of
the situation before and during the last out-of-Africa
movement. Much emphasis has been placed on Sub-Saharan
populations, who live in areas that are often regarded to be
where non-African modern humans originated. In fact,
some of the extant sub-Saharan populations might be displaced
populations whose hunter-gatherer ancestors lived
further north."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QUOTE]ry of Cultural Affairs.


Dental Evidence from the Aterian Human Populations of Morocco

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~bioanth/tanya_smith/pdf/Hublin_et_al_2012.pdf

---

---

quote:

---

The Aterian is a frequently cited manifestation of the Middle Stone Age (MSA) of North Africa, yet its character and meaning have remained largely opaque, as attention has focused almost exclusively on the typology of ‘tanged’, or ‘pedunculated’, lithics. Observations of technological similarities between the Aterian and other regional technocomplexes suggest that the Aterian should be considered within the wider context of the North African MSA and not as an isolated phenomenon. This paper critically reviews the meaning and history of research of the Aterian. This highlights a number of serious issues with definitions and interpretations of this technocomplex, ranging from a lack of definitional consensus to problems with the common view of the Aterian as a ‘desert adaptation’. Following this review, the paper presents the results of a quantitative study of six North African MSA assemblages (Aterian, Nubian Complex and ‘MSA’). Correspondence and Principal Components Analyses are applied, which suggest that the patterns of similarity and difference demonstrated do not simplistically correlate with traditional divisions between named industries. These similarity patterns are instead structured geographically and it is suggested that they reflect a population differentiation that cannot be explained by isolation and distance alone. Particular results include the apparent uniqueness of Haua Fteah compared to all the other assemblages and the observation that the Aterian in northeast Africa is more similar to the Nubian in that region than to the Aterian in the Maghreb. The study demonstrates the existence of population structure in the North African MSA, which has important implications for the evolutionary dynamics of modern human dispersals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Tsk! Tsk Tsk! Are you listening to yourself?

Quote: "Many Copts are a shade of BROWN and LOOKED mixed". Ha! Ha!

Still don't get how nature/evolution works? I assumed your crew had a higher level of education maybe I am mistaken.

I will make it simply. How a person LOOK could be a result of (1) admixture or (2) they evolved to look that way. That is their natural look.

---

I covered (2) that I said "or intermediate"

---

Lioness,(since you have covered it) show info on the basal clade Hg H and it's frequencies. And a summation of the alleles.

It's you who posted those studies after all on Hg HV, H and V.

We have to get to the bottom of this. Like we have done with Hg M, M1 and U6.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 


This show the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene (green Sahara) thus before the back to Africa movement of west asians population.

Is is from this study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458.full.pdf

The Barbed Points (aqualithic) and Ounanian culture are both ancient indigenous African culture. According to the study, the Aqualithic African culture spread following the expansion of aquatic resources in the Holocene which made the Sahara attractive to populations with existing fishing and riverine hunting skills. The Ounanian culture (Niger-congo speakers) from North West Africa would have spread southward following big land animals with their bow and arrow hunting skills.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


This show the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene (green Sahara) thus before the back to Africa movement of west asians population.

Is is from this study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458.full.pdf

The Barbed Points (aqualithic) and Ounanian culture are both ancient indigenous African culture. According to the study, the Aqualithic African culture spread following the expansion of aquatic resources in the Holocene which made the Sahara attractive to populations with existing fishing and riverine hunting skills. The Ounanian culture (Niger-congo speakers) from North West Africa would have spread southward following big land animals with their bow and arrow hunting skills.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


This show the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene (green Sahara) thus before the back to Africa movement of west asians population.

Is is from this study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458.full.pdf

The Barbed Points (aqualithic) and Ounanian culture are both ancient indigenous African culture. According to the study, the Aqualithic African culture spread following the expansion of aquatic resources in the Holocene which made the Sahara attractive to populations with existing fishing and riverine hunting skills. The Ounanian culture (Niger-congo speakers) from North West Africa would have spread southward following big land animals with their bow and arrow hunting skills.

---

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007697;p=1#000000

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


PLOS Genetics 2012

Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Brenna M. Henn

---

quote:

---

In summary, although paleoanthropological evidence has established the ancient presence of anatomically modern humans in northern Africa prior to 60,000 ya [edit:indigenous black Africans], the simplest interpretation of our results is that the majority of ancestry in modern North Africans derives from populations outside of Africa , through at least two episodes of increased gene flow during the past 40,000 years [Figure 1, Figure 2, Figure 3].

---

quote:

---

Conclusion

Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day [edit: non-black African] ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa. Population structure in North Africa is particularly complex, and future disease or phenotypic studies should carefully account for local demographic history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I cringe when I read some of the critiques of Henn et al 2012. What the hell does sampling have to do with the raw results?

---

quote:

---

Aside of the fact that its patently false that no near Sahara folks have been sampled, there are only so many Ks in Africa, so throwing in more near Saharan populations will only result in more populations along a cline of the already identified Ks, as demonstrated by the Ks of the used near Saharan Fulani, Hausa and Bulala samples.

---

quote:

---

Raw results comes from sampling values obviously (the SNP alleles values).[quote]
Now you're just talking out of your neck as always. SNPs aren't short tandem repeats, that they would comprise of ''values''. What exactly is your point? Of course raw results come from samples, but how exactly would inclusion of more populations affect the results?
[quote]That's ridiculous. Some probable Ks (population)

---

quote:

---

have separated from other Africans in West Africa and Kenya (their used samples for the study) to stay (or settle) in North Africa and their DNA was excluded from the study.

---

quote:

---

What you do is like making conclusion about the ancestry of Finnish people (North African indigenous black population in our example) by using sample from Basque people (in eastern Europe) because they are all Europeans after all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Raw results comes from sampling values obviously (the SNP alleles values).[quote]
Now you're just talking out of your neck as always. SNPs aren't short tandem repeats, that they would comprise of ''values''. What exactly is your point? Of course raw results come from samples, but how exactly would inclusion of more populations affect the results?
[quote]That's ridiculous. Some probable Ks (population)

---

As usual, you got it all jacked up. 'Ks' aren't populations.

quote:

---

have separated from other Africans in West Africa and Kenya (their used samples for the study) to stay (or settle) in North Africa and their DNA was excluded from the study.

---

And that would affect the results in a major way, that you'd describe it as a drawback, how?

quote:

---

What you do is like making conclusion about the ancestry of Finnish people (North African indigenous black population in our example) by using sample from Basque people (in eastern Europe) because they are all Europeans after all.

---

All the more evidence that you don't know how studies work or what a hypothesis is. The goal of the paper wasn't to map the affinities of African populations in general.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amun-Ra they found some early back migrations in North Africa.
That doesn't mean every North African. You can't dismiss the whole study because it doesn't apply to all North Africans. It applies to the ones they are talking about

---

That's what I said earlier on this thread. But the study goes beyond that and make some reference (conclusion) about the relationship between current coastal North Africans and black Africans (called Sub-Saharan Africans in the study, a bit of a misnomer). Like if every "sub-saharan Africans" were Nigerians or Kenyans and had similar SNP values to them. For a population study it's strange that the study avoid an important part of the population which are part of the genetic make up of the region.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Indeed. The sampling is primarily coastal, and thus
will skew results. Its like those studies that sample
the far north of Egypt and use the data as "representative"
of Egypt as a whole. Its a game some researchers run time
and time again. It's a problem specifically noted in the literature
re "North Africa."













And "North Africa" is a place with a very wide range
not merely the coast:


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] Indeed. The sampling is primarily coastal, and thus
will skew results. Its like those studies that sample
the far north of Egypt and use the data as "representative"
of Egypt as a whole. Its a game some researchers run time
and time again. It's a problem specifically noted in the literature
re "North Africa."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amun-Ra they found some early back migrations in North Africa.
That doesn't mean every North African. You can't dismiss the whole study because it doesn't apply to all North Africans. It applies to the ones they are talking about

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amun-Ra they found some early back migrations in North Africa.
That doesn't mean every North African. You can't dismiss the whole study because it doesn't apply to all North Africans. It applies to the ones they are talking about

---

Who are the ones they are "talking about"?

---

the people listed. samples near coast
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
and blowing some air.

---

quote:

---

For a guy who says sampling got no impact of the raw results

---

quote:

---

(Ks are indeed "postulated ancestral populations" btw).

---

quote:

---

that's why it's surprising to see the study make reference to them (for example, saying "North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans").

---

quote:

---

For example, it's possible that some Berber (or other coastal North African groups) share more affinities (SNP alleles values) with black Africans groups close to them geographically but much less with Nigerians or Kenyans.

---

quote:

---

share more affinities (SNP alleles values)

---

quote:

---

Also the North African population include indigenous black African population (usually in the south of those countries)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
and blowing some air.

---

Yeah, like equating a SNP with a STR, or referring to Ks as ''populations''.

quote:

---

For a guy who says sampling got no impact of the raw results

---

My reference to the low impact of sampling was obviously meant as in sampling more populations than they already have. But taking stuff horribly out of context is what you're known for here on ES.

quote:

---

(Ks are indeed "postulated ancestral populations" btw).

---

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Its literally oozing from everything you say. And I'm not just talking this thread.

quote:

---

that's why it's surprising to see the study make reference to them (for example, saying "North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans").

---

And that they're referring to the under-sampled Saharan proper populations when they say that, is evidenced by what?

quote:

---

For example, it's possible that some Berber (or other coastal North African groups) share more affinities (SNP alleles values) with black Africans groups close to them geographically but much less with Nigerians or Kenyans.

---

You're too much of an ignoramus to have noticed that both the Fulani, Hausa and Bulala samples qualify for what you're stating above. The very populations you go at lengths to say weren't sampled, are actually sampled, as I've tried to point out earlier (but, to no avail).

quote:

---

share more affinities (SNP alleles values)

---

LMAO at ''SNP alleles values'', when the 'S' in SNP means SINGLE. Does ''single'' strike you as compatible with values? You're a walking caricature, not to be taken serious, not even by the Euronut trolls.

quote:

---

Also the North African population include indigenous black African population (usually in the south of those countries)

---

Again, you simply don't understand what you're discussing. The Fulani, Hausa and Bulala already qualify for what you're stating above.

---

You say I'm wrong but you give no explanation why. We suppose to believe you without explanations? Let's exchange information not hot air.

1) Nigerian and Kenyan populations are not the same than black African in North Africa. They have different SNP DNA values. They are more likely to have interacted other people in North Africa since they are geographically closer and are more likely to share DNA with them (among other thing).


2)Even if SNPs are *single* nucleotide polymorphism they still have different alleles values that's why we're making the study. The values correspond to the different nucleotides it could have (A, T, C or G). Obviously, there must be at least 2 different alleles values in a population to be considered an SNP.

At a single site on the DNA strand people (a population) can have many different allele values depending on their ancestry (or mutation). In fact each person can even have 2 values at the same site (one in each chromosome passed from the mother and the father).

This is from Wiki:
For example, two sequenced DNA fragments from different individuals, AAGCCTA to AAGCTTA, contain a difference in a single nucleotide. In this case we say that there are two alleles.

That's pretty basic, it's funny you don't understand that. You're the one making a fool out of yourself you will pardon me to say.

3) If you don't consider Ks "postulated ancestral populations" then I want to know what do you consider the Ks are?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Question: I wonder if Rameses III, who is E1b1a, has this so called Euroasian SNPs? wink! wink!
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Remember, not to long ago.

West African(negros) were new to Africa ie of Asian ancestry. - proven wrong!!

AfroAsian language originated in EurAsia,- Proven Wrong!!

E1b1b orginated in Eurasia - proven wrong!!

M1 was Eurasian- proven wrong!!!

U6 Was Eurasian - proven worng!!

AEian culturally came from Eurasia - proven wrong!!

what's next. ...SNPs?

Remember STR proves Berbers are indigenous Africans.

Selective SNPs is the lastest tool used to carve out North Africa from Africa.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Remember STR proves Berbers are indigenous Africans.

Selective SNPs is the lastest tool used to carve out North Africa from Africa. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amun-Ra they found some early back migrations in North Africa.
That doesn't mean every North African. You can't dismiss the whole study because it doesn't apply to all North Africans. It applies to the ones they are talking about

---

That's what I said earlier on this thread. But the study goes beyond that and make some reference (conclusion) about the relationship between current coastal North Africans and black Africans (called Sub-Saharan Africans in the study, a bit of a misnomer). Like if every "sub-saharan Africans" were Nigerians or Kenyans and had similar SNP values to them. For a population study it's strange that the study avoid an important part of the population which are part of the genetic make up of the region.

---

It isn't strange. They are doing it on purpose to fool those who don't know better into believing they aren't biased..... But common sense says that if you can see they skipped over a big chunk of the population and I can see it and we aren't scientists, then of course they could see it as well. In their minds North Africa is supposed to be for white folks and any blacks there came as slaves recently. This the same bull crap they have been saying for the last 100 years or more and we know why.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
well the reverse was also done. Lighter skin Berbers were attributed to white slaves of the Barbary pirates, xxyman says they are indigenous


 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Why are twisting my words. I am not annoyed just amused.

I said LIGHT skin is indigenous to parts of Africa.

R1b1ba2(R-M269) is NOT.

E1b1b* and it's siblings are.

Look at the Global UV Map. Look at indigenous peoples skin color during the early 1900's. Read Sergi etc Read books by travelers from the 1600s to 1900s.

Put it together and tell me what you come up with...clown.


Is Zidane a Berber? Your point of the picture? He could be an Ottoman Turk claiming to be a Berber. What is his STRs. What is his limb proportion? WHat is his eye color? What is his Hg-Lineage? What is his family history?

If you don't know...get rid of the pic. Ha! Ha!
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Another infantile question ..or it provs you ignorance. Your question makes no sense. You are definitely driving up traffic with your silly questions.

Hint: Look at the UV Map......

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Remember STR proves Berbers are indigenous Africans.

Selective SNPs is the lastest tool used to carve out North Africa from Africa.

---

so were the first white people Atlas Berbers? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Why are twisting my words. I am not annoyed just amused.

I said LIGHT skin is indigenous to parts of Africa.

---

I didn't twist your word I asked in question form
"were the first white people Atlas Berbers? "
I think it's an interesting concept. I don't care what the politics are

Also why is light skin indigenous to those parts and how does it relate to the Egyptians?

I leave it to you to answer these questions.

-unless you're scared
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Tsk! Tsk! Getting late and getting bored. YAAAAAWNNNN

"unless you are scared"

Last point...Ancient Egyptians are NOT Scandanavians. Why? do the research.

NFL replay time. Colts are over-rated. One and done.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


this is the point
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Remember the STRs used are standards. It includes the 13 used by CODIS and other groups. Why is it used? Simple, it gives the authorities an idea of the " race" of the victim or perp. Notice the "output" is - black, afram, caucasian, etc.

On the other hand SNPs are used mostly in relation studies eg paternity suites.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
1) Nigerian and Kenyan populations are not the same than black African in North Africa. They have different SNP DNA values. They are more likely to have interacted other people in North Africa since they are geographically closer and are more likely to share DNA with them (among other thing).


2)Even if SNPs are *single* nucleotide polymorphism they still have different alleles values that's why we're making the study. The values correspond to the different nucleotides it could have (A, T, C or G). Obviously, there must be at least 2 different alleles values in a population to be considered an SNP.

At a single site on the DNA strand people (a population) can have many different allele values depending on their ancestry (or mutation). In fact each person can even have 2 values at the same site (one in each chromosome passed from the mother and the father).

This is from Wiki:
For example, two sequenced DNA fragments from different individuals, AAGCCTA to AAGCTTA, contain a difference in a single nucleotide. In this case we say that there are two alleles.

That's pretty basic, it's funny you don't understand that. You're the one making a fool out of yourself you will pardon me to say.

3) If you don't consider Ks "postulated ancestral populations" then I want to know what do you consider the Ks are? [/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Why are twisting my words. I am not annoyed just amused.

I said LIGHT skin is indigenous to parts of Africa.

---

I didn't twist your word I asked in question form
"were the first white people Atlas Berbers? "
I think it's an interesting concept. I don't care what the politics are

Also why is light skin indigenous to those parts and how does it relate to the Egyptians?

I leave it to you to answer these questions.

-unless you're scared

---

Great way to start off the New Year lioness. How 'bout a better question for the authors of the article.

What happened to the majority of slaves brought into Morocco which as is well known were FROM BRITAIN before the 17th century and the 100,000s of Andalusians that settled in the riff and other parts of north Africa.

Who were these "Moors" mentioned below in the mountains north of the Atlas, and where did they come from. Hint - this has already been answered for you elsewhere.

“ They [i.e. the Syrian Arabs] decided on their own initiative to hasten to the sea, crossing the territory of the Moors to attack Tangiers with the Swords. But the army of the Moors, realizing this immediately burst forth FROM THE MOUNTAINS to the battle naked girded only with loin-cloths covering their shameful parts. When they joined with each other in battle at the Nava river, the Egyptian horses immediately recoiled in flight, as the Moors on their beautiful horses revealed their repulsive colour and gnashed their white teeth. Despairing, they launched another attack, the Arab cavalry again instantly recoiled due to the colour of the Moors’skin.”

“…the Latin Chronicle of 754 is the earliest record of the Arab defeat by the Syrian commander Kulthum b. Iyad al Qushayri. “ p. 71 Ibn Garcia’s Shu’ubiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval by Goran Larsson 2003 published by Brill.

Why do these genetic studies never mention the Scythic (Alanic) settlement of North Africa as well. Yes, of course there was a back migration of Europeans to Africa. No need to confuse that with the early Berbers though.


“The population of Vandal North Africa was made up of Vandals, Romans and Moors..... Nevertheless the description of Vandals in the wider of two senses still included some Alans and others conscious of their own non-Vandal origins. The king's title remained 'King of the Vandals and Alans'." From the Book Regna and Gentes The Relationship between Late Antique and Early Medieval History, by H. Goetz,: p. 68 (2003)
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
After re-reading this paper I have to admit this is much to do about nothing. It is all extreme speculation. Almost laughable. In fact the title is mis-leading and written out of context of what is documented in the paper. I guess it was titled like most things these days with the intent to create controversy and draw attention. The conclusion section says it all. The authors don’t really believe this back-migration nonsense. See highlighted sections.

Note their non-African reference population- Basque and Qatari.

I needed to read this several times to get it. Some of you may understand. But let me break it down.

Please read and understand before replying. Sage, Swenet..maybe Lioness..others give me some feedback.

Key things that jump out at you.

1. Tunisian Berbers are 100% pure indigenous. Minor “recent” near east input in other groups.
2. They used an “outlier” reference populations. Basque that are known to have Berber admixture. And Qatari which is on the other side of the Arabian peninsular.
3. The admit the result is inconclusive. They recommend that ….STR!!!…studies be performed to confirm their speculation. STRs were posted by me already.
4. They are suggesting that the Qatari came from a similar but DIFFERENT source population.
5. They are suggesting that the Berber ancestral population left Africa spent ~1Kyrs in Arabia returned to Africa for another 38-40,000yrs!!! That is like someone spending first 25yrs of their life in one city, left and spent 1 yr in the neighboring city, then returned to their home town and spent another 40yrs. Does that make them non-African?
6. They confirmed there were NO migration from the Middle-East since then ie that initial OOA, short stay and back.
7. They confirmed a decreasing West to East gradient of genetic material. Nothing new here.
8. They confirmed the initial ancestral source MAY be along the Nile. No Shyte!! Can anyone say E1b1b or Sergi.
9. They admit other Africans were in the North Africa since 65,000ya. As posted by Troll Patrol, Hublin et al. Yet they BS!! LOL!


[i]
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports
Back-to-Africa Migrations
Brenna M. Henn1

---

Laughable is an understatement. More like pitiful. Most Tunisians are pure what? Do they know what most Tunisian Berbers look like? Like night and day.


Here's one part everyone can agree with "the simplest interpretation of our results is that the majority of ancestry in modern North Africans derives from populations outside of Africa"

I don't know about the rest of that sentence though.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Why are twisting my words. I am not annoyed just amused.

I said LIGHT skin is indigenous to parts of Africa.

---

I didn't twist your word I asked in question form
"were the first white people Atlas Berbers? "
I think it's an interesting concept. I don't care what the politics are

Also why is light skin indigenous to those parts and how does it relate to the Egyptians?

I leave it to you to answer these questions.

-unless you're scared

---

Great way to start off the New Year lioness. How 'bout a better question for the authors of the article.

What happened to the majority of slaves brought into Morocco which as is well known were FROM BRITAIN before the 17th century and the 100,000s of Andalusians that settled in the riff and other parts of north Africa.

Who were these "Moors" mentioned below in the mountains north of the Atlas, and where did they come from. Hint - this has already been answered for you elsewhere.

“ They [i.e. the Syrian Arabs] decided on their own initiative to hasten to the sea, crossing the territory of the Moors to attack Tangiers with the Swords. But the army of the Moors, realizing this immediately burst forth FROM THE MOUNTAINS to the battle naked girded only with loin-cloths covering their shameful parts. When they joined with each other in battle at the Nava river, the Egyptian horses immediately recoiled in flight, as the Moors on their beautiful horses revealed their repulsive colour and gnashed their white teeth. Despairing, they launched another attack, the Arab cavalry again instantly recoiled due to the colour of the Moors’skin.”

“…the Latin Chronicle of 754 is the earliest record of the Arab defeat by the Syrian commander Kulthum b. Iyad al Qushayri. “ p. 71 Ibn Garcia’s Shu’ubiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval by Goran Larsson 2003 published by Brill.

Why do these genetic studies never mention the Scythic (Alanic) settlement of North Africa as well. Yes, of course there was a back migration of Europeans to Africa. No need to confuse that with the early Berbers though.


“The population of Vandal North Africa was made up of Vandals, Romans and Moors..... Nevertheless the description of Vandals in the wider of two senses still included some Alans and others conscious of their own non-Vandal origins. The king's title remained 'King of the Vandals and Alans'." From the Book Regna and Gentes The Relationship between Late Antique and Early Medieval History, by H. Goetz,: p. 68 (2003)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Sensitive detection of chromosomal segments of distinct ancestry in admixed populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543370

Although care should be taken in interpreting these values, they
indicate that the ancestral segments of Mozabite are significantly
diverged from extant Bantu-African and European related populations.
... the Mozabite are not perfectly modeled as a linear combination
of European and African ancestry.

---

^Essentially the same as Henn et al 2012's solid reasoning for why the predominant Maghrebi component detected in Berber populations doesn't predate the Holocene (they have alleles that are unique to them and bespeak divergence times from Eurasians that are >10kya):

A scenario where North African Maghrebi ancestry is the result of in situ population absorbing Near Eastern migrants would likely need the following premises to explain the results here and elsewhere: a) an Out-of-Africa migration [concurrent with bottleneck] occurs 50–60 Kya, geographically dividing North African and Near Eastern populations; b) North Africans experience a separate bottleneck; c) gene flow maintains similarity between the two geographically distinct populations; d) the gene flow then ceases or slows roughly between 12–40 Kya in order to allow sufficiently distinct allele frequency distributions to form.
--Henn et al 2012

^Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry that is clearly unaccounted for by the confused ''historic female slave trade'' fairytale pushers, who are motivated only by their hidden agenda to not have to admit that the Eurasian genetic component in Berbers--which is embodied by what's left over when historic Arab and historic European and slightly older West African ancestry is subtracted--can be traced back to Ibero-maurusians.

The afronut bogus ''female Eurasian slaves'' excuse, when applied to what's CLEARLY prehistoric, non-recent ancestry in Berbers, needs to be called out for the crackpot emotion-driven quackery that it is. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
1) Nigerian and Kenyan populations are not the same than black African in North Africa. They have different SNP DNA values. They are more likely to have interacted other people in North Africa since they are geographically closer and are more likely to share DNA with them (among other thing).


2)Even if SNPs are *single* nucleotide polymorphism they still have different alleles values that's why we're making the study. The values correspond to the different nucleotides it could have (A, T, C or G). Obviously, there must be at least 2 different alleles values in a population to be considered an SNP.

At a single site on the DNA strand people (a population) can have many different allele values depending on their ancestry (or mutation). In fact each person can even have 2 values at the same site (one in each chromosome passed from the mother and the father).

This is from Wiki:
For example, two sequenced DNA fragments from different individuals, AAGCCTA to AAGCTTA, contain a difference in a single nucleotide. In this case we say that there are two alleles.

That's pretty basic, it's funny you don't understand that. You're the one making a fool out of yourself you will pardon me to say.

3) If you don't consider Ks "postulated ancestral populations" then I want to know what do you consider the Ks are?

---

1)
Either you're too dumb to realize that Bulala, Hausa and Fulani histories are historically culturally and genetically intertwined with Saharan populations, or you're just trying to save face. Neither of these populations originate at the latitude of Nigeria, and are, in fact, the very populations you falsely claim are undersampled in Henn et al 2012. The supposed drawbacks you attribute to Henn et all 2012 are figments of your own imagination.

2)
Nucleotides aren't values and have nothing to do with values. You're just a troll on repeat, who just now realizes that SNPs aren't STRs, after I corrected you. Nucleotides aren't groups of nucleotides, but rather, the constituents of STRs, and, as such, they, nor SNPs, can be assigned amounts/values. The longer you keep on dragging this retarded argument on, the more you're exposing your ignorance for everyone to see.

3)
Ks are merely brackets to which distinct pieces of ancestry can be assigned membership, on the basis of affinity. The more brackets scientists introduce to their analysis, the more room there will be for discrimination (hence, why more colors appear). This has nothing to do with populations, whatsoever. However, ancestral populations can be inferred from Ks, but Ks are not ancestral populations in and of themselves. That's just retarded. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Key things that jump out at you.

1. Tunisian Berbers are 100% pure indigenous. Minor “recent” near east input in other groups.
2. They used an “outlier” reference populations. Basque that are known to have Berber admixture. And Qatari which is on the other side of the Arabian peninsular.

---

quote:

---

3. The admit the result is inconclusive. They recommend that ….STR!!!…studies be performed to confirm their speculation. STRs were posted by me already.

---

quote:

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4. They are suggesting that the Qatari came from a similar but DIFFERENT source population.

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quote:

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5. They are suggesting that the Berber ancestral population left Africa spent ~1Kyrs in Arabia returned to Africa for another 38-40,000yrs!!! That is like someone spending first 25yrs of their life in one city, left and spent 1 yr in the neighboring city, then returned to their home town and spent another 40yrs. Does that make them non-African?

---

quote:

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6. They confirmed there were NO migration from the Middle-East since then ie that initial OOA, short stay and back.

---

quote:

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8. They confirmed the initial ancestral source MAY be along the Nile. No Shyte!! Can anyone say E1b1b or Sergi.

---

quote:

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9. They admit other Africans were in the North Africa since 65,000ya. As posted by Troll Patrol, Hublin et al. Yet they BS!! LOL!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


Here's one part everyone can agree with "the simplest interpretation of our results is that the majority of ancestry in modern North Africans derives from populations outside of Africa"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] LMAO, Please. Copy-N-Pasting Swenet wont do you **** against me.

---

You weren't one of the three birds, It was Tuk, xxxy and dana
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ A Ra. I bolded the sections... for ease of reading and understanding.

eg Quote: In contrast, we find it more parsimonious to describe model where: a) an OOA migration occurs [concurrent with a bottleneck]; b) OOA populations and North Africans diverge between 12–40 Kya when a migration back-to-Africa occurs. *****These models should be further tested with genomic sequence data, (STRs!!) which have better power to detect magnitude and timing of bottlenecks

Translation: These people left Africa, stress occured, and they immediately returned to North Africa. Where they spent over 30kY. Keep in mind they are also saying there were other Africans living in N Africa 65kya prior.

Keep in mind Basque are confirmed to be admixed with Berbers. There is a reason why they did not use Scandanavians. As with most research the two bookends are Basque and Qatari.

They are also saying that the only way to be definite is through STR studies. Which is available and I posted in the other thread.

If you read carefully they are suggesting no true admixture since the initial migration. The Islamic migration reached mainly Egypt. And there is minor admixture along the coast ie maritime Medtrn activty.

Quote, do you understand this " We can reject a simple model of long-term continuous gene flow between the Near East and North Africa"
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Some of these Euro-nut are not worth your time arguing with: reminds me of 2 yr olds.



6 white car and one blue one in a row. And you ask the 2yo which is different. He replies “the blue one”. Which is understandable at that age.



By the time that child reaches high school you ask him the same question he will answer 3 Ford Mustangs, One is a Toyota Camry, and 3 Dodge Ram. He has outgrown color. He is now into size, shapes, make model etc. You know…. limb proportion, craniometry, linguistics etc.



Now the kid is a man. Well into college. He now knows not all Mustangs are Mustangs, some are Cobra others GTO, some has a V6 others V8. He pops the hood. ie genetics and statistics.



Now, is it worth your time arguing the difference between a Magnum V8 vs a Hemi to a 2yo. He! He! He! No, he is not sophisticated enough!!



@ Brick and @ Henu thanks but maintain your PM box.
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
According to the study the Berbers sampled are not pure indigenous. They are the products of a back-to-Africa migration movement like any other non-black people in North Africa, albeit very long ago.

^^It is an open question whether a "back to Africa"
migration long ago would be non-black. Diop always
called attention to the phenotype. He was on to something there..


 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
I've said it before, and will say it again, possibly to the dismay of those who are literacy-challenged...

Many of the so-called Eurasian markers that contemporary coastal Maghrebi populations carry do look to have come from female slaves!

That is not to say that such could have been the only source, but a significant one nonetheless.

This mirrors observations I've made known elsewhere:

Then comes into equation, that observation just mentioned in the Cherni et al. piece above, about the African-European asymmetrical lineage among Maghrebi populations. Much of that asymmetrical ancestry very likely comes from institution of historic slavery enterprise involving mostly European females in the Maghreb. Of course, a lot of devout Eurocentrists balk at such a prospect, but it is a fairly reasonable explanation for the aforementioned asymmetric parental pattern, and importantly, it is backed by history.

The skeptic-wisdom is, after all, that European male contribution seems all but negligible in the Maghrebi gene pool, and yet, that the slave enterprise in the Maghreb would have included European males. For one, slave-male genetic exchange with any preexisting local maternal gene pool would have been strongly discouraged by slave-holders, as was the case with many locations that have put in place institutions of slavery, while the Maghrebi male population would have had a freer hand in exchanging genes with enslaved European females. Additionally, Maghrebi enthusiasm for European male slave market would have been relatively modest compared to that for the European female slave counterpart, since the Maghrebi would have then had firsthand access to preexisting slave trade with "western African" polities just geographically beneath them, where a labor pool of more physically-robust males could have been extracted than that from European counterparts.

In an ironic twist, devout Eurocentrists like to portray any so-called "sub-Saharan" African contribution in Maghrebi gene pool as "slave"-mediated, when in fact, it appears to have been the other way around: the asymmetric African male-to-European female ancestry speaks more to a European contribution that was mediated by and large through slavery than the case is for the "sub-Saharan" contribution in coastal Maghrebi gene pool, which Frigi et al. (2010) for example, determined to have been around since prehistoric times.

Now it's time for those crippled by idealism, who merely dismiss anything that does not agree with their personal belief systems, or simply put--anything they can't understand, as some supposed fantasy, to take off their emotional blinders, and consider that these observations rely on several identified factors:

Contemporary Maghreb populations essentially lack the common European-specific NRY markers, in contrast to the often made reference to lopsided southwest European mtDNA input. This is the sort of pattern one would expect of...

1) a situation wherein slavery favoring females results in a net higher gain of female gene flow than male counterparts of the source-population from which slaves were attained. Add to this, accumulative impact of the culture of polygamy permissible in many Muslim societies.

Or alternatively...

2) a situation wherein the male segments of the source population of the emigrant community were effectively exterminated, leaving the female counterparts to become available to the exterminators, who would obviously have to be male in sex orientation.

Or yet...

3)assume some extraordinary scenario wherein emigrants were overwhelmingly females, while the reverse was true for a preexisting group on the destination side of the emigration.

Whatever the scenario may be, the question is, where's the evidence?

Of note: Historic accounts of slavery have already been accounted for, and so, there is little to doubt about its prospect. The other scenarios above, however, will require substantive materialization.

No archaeological proof of mass emigration of Franco-Cantabrian refugees into coastal northwest Africa in the Upper Paleolithic.

No osteological proof of contemporary EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi-types outside of the African continent, particularly the Iberian peninsula, that has been brought to immediate attention.

No unequivocal DNA proof of primary "Eurasian" origin of EpiPaleolithic Maghreb series.

Lineages which are partially suggestive of the preexisting genetic landscape, like say U6 and M1, generally occur in relatively small incidences in contemporary Holocene-derived populations of the Maghreb, from both maternal and paternal standpoints.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ your comments seem to have no direct relation to the Henn article



Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn

After accounting for putative recent admixture [Figure 1], the indigenous Maghrebi component [k-based] is estimated to have diverged from Near Eastern/Europeans between 18–38 Kya [Figure 3], under a range of Ne and k values. We hence suggest that the ancestral Maghrebi population separated from Near Eastern/Europeans prior to the Holocene, and that the Maghrebi populations do not represent a large-scale demic diffusion of agropastoralists from the Near East.


In summary, although paleoanthropological evidence has established the ancient presence of anatomically modern humans in northern Africa prior to 60,000 ya [35], the simplest interpretation of our results is that the majority of ancestry in modern North Africans derives from populations outside of Africa, through at least two episodes of increased gene flow during the past 40,000 years [Figure 1, Figure 2, Figure 3].

This decrease in assigned sub-Saharan ancestry in North African samples, from a k = 2 model, is consistent with an interpretation that Maghrebi or Near Eastern diversity that is not present in the panel populations is more likely to be assigned to the more diverse, Sub-Saharan African ancestry. Using a two-population admixture model, Price et al. [18] estimated the time of migration from sub-Saharan Africa into the Mozabites to have begun about 100 generations ago [or more]. Our results suggest that sub-Saharan African and Maghreb admixture is considerably more recent, 24–41 generations ago [and even the upper 95% CI estimate under either model is 55ga, Table 1].

Conclusion

Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa. Population structure in North Africa is particularly complex, and future disease or phenotypic studies should carefully account for local demographic history. However, the rich history of gene flow can also help empower genome-wide association mapping via admixture mapping techniques [42]. For example, the variable but relatively long haplotypes of sub-Saharan ancestry are amenable to admixture mapping approaches developed for African-American samples. In conclusion, North African populations retain a unique signature of early “Maghrebi” ancestry, but North African populations are not a homogenous group and most display varying combinations of five distinct ancestries.

_________________________________

Sensitive Detection of Chromosomal Segments of Distinct Ancestry in Admixed Populations. Bosch et al

We apply HAPMIX to 935 African American individuals
genotyped at ~650,000 markers. By studying a large
set of individuals from an admixed population of
high relevance to disease mapping, we validate the
effectiveness of this method in a practical setting
and specifically show that the ancestry estimates
are not systematically biased within the limits of
our resolution. To illustrate how the method can
provide insights into the history of an anciently
admixed population, we also apply HAPMIX to a data
set of 29 individuals from the Mozabite population
of northern Africa that were genotyped at ~650,000
markers as part of the Human Genome Diversity Panel
(HGDP) [15].

We show that the Mozabite have inherited roughly
78% ancestry from a European-related population and
22% ancestry from a population related to sub-Saharan
Africans. Our analysis also shows that the Mozabite
admixture has occurred over a period that began at
least 100 generations ago (~2,800 years ago), and
that has continued into the present day. We are
able to infer small, ancient, ancestry segments
in the Mozabite, and we demonstrate that the
segments show considerable drift relative to
all the other HGDP populations, consistent with
the historical isolation of the Mozabite population.


 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Likewise, your post has no direct relation to mine. Guess that makes us even.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
That's the most stupid post I ever read.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
It's like you're not even answering my points just inventing your own points to counter mixing it with being a pompous ass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Bottom line is that population in Nigeria and Kenya are not the same as the indigenous black Africans in North Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
I've said it before, and will say it again, possibly to the dismay of those who are literacy-challenged...

Many of the so-called Eurasian markers that contemporary coastal Maghrebi populations carry do look to have come from female slaves!

That is not to say that such could have been the only source, but a significant one nonetheless.

This mirrors observations I've made known elsewhere:

Then comes into equation, that observation just mentioned in the Cherni et al. piece above, about the African-European asymmetrical lineage among Maghrebi populations. Much of that asymmetrical ancestry very likely comes from institution of historic slavery enterprise involving mostly European females in the Maghreb. Of course, a lot of devout Eurocentrists balk at such a prospect, but it is a fairly reasonable explanation for the aforementioned asymmetric parental pattern, and importantly, it is backed by history.

The skeptic-wisdom is, after all, that European male contribution seems all but negligible in the Maghrebi gene pool, and yet, that the slave enterprise in the Maghreb would have included European males. For one, slave-male genetic exchange with any preexisting local maternal gene pool would have been strongly discouraged by slave-holders, as was the case with many locations that have put in place institutions of slavery, while the Maghrebi male population would have had a freer hand in exchanging genes with enslaved European females. Additionally, Maghrebi enthusiasm for European male slave market would have been relatively modest compared to that for the European female slave counterpart, since the Maghrebi would have then had firsthand access to preexisting slave trade with "western African" polities just geographically beneath them, where a labor pool of more physically-robust males could have been extracted than that from European counterparts.

In an ironic twist, devout Eurocentrists like to portray any so-called "sub-Saharan" African contribution in Maghrebi gene pool as "slave"-mediated, when in fact, it appears to have been the other way around: the asymmetric African male-to-European female ancestry speaks more to a European contribution that was mediated by and large through slavery than the case is for the "sub-Saharan" contribution in coastal Maghrebi gene pool, which Frigi et al. (2010) for example, determined to have been around since prehistoric times.

Now it's time for those crippled by idealism, who merely dismiss anything that does not agree with their personal belief systems, or simply put--anything they can't understand, as some supposed fantasy, to take off their emotional blinders, and consider that these observations rely on several identified factors:

Contemporary Maghreb populations essentially lack the common European-specific NRY markers, in contrast to the often made reference to lopsided southwest European mtDNA input. This is the sort of pattern one would expect of...

1) a situation wherein slavery favoring females results in a net higher gain of female gene flow than male counterparts of the source-population from which slaves were attained. Add to this, accumulative impact of the culture of polygamy permissible in many Muslim societies.

Or alternatively...

2) a situation wherein the male segments of the source population of the emigrant community were effectively exterminated, leaving the female counterparts to become available to the exterminators, who would obviously have to be male in sex orientation.

Or yet...

3)assume some extraordinary scenario wherein emigrants were overwhelmingly females, while the reverse was true for a preexisting group on the destination side of the emigration.

Whatever the scenario may be, the question is, where's the evidence?

Of note: Historic accounts of slavery have already been accounted for, and so, there is little to doubt about its prospect. The other scenarios above, however, will require substantive materialization.

No archaeological proof of mass emigration of Franco-Cantabrian refugees into coastal northwest Africa in the Upper Paleolithic.

No osteological proof of contemporary EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi-types outside of the African continent, particularly the Iberian peninsula, that has been brought to immediate attention.

No unequivocal DNA proof of primary "Eurasian" origin of EpiPaleolithic Maghreb series.

Lineages which are partially suggestive of the preexisting genetic landscape, like say U6 and M1, generally occur in relatively small incidences in contemporary Holocene-derived populations of the Maghreb, from both maternal and paternal standpoints.

---

^^ Excellent summary. I had just a vague idea of
the disproportionate European female contribution
but your write-up brings it all into much sharper focus.
We need more of these clear expositions laid down.
Too often during Black History Month and outside
that, I run into cats who have not moved beyond Diop
1974 or George James 1957- valuable for certain things
but the field has moved on substantially with new research
as shown above. We need this clear break down of the data.

It seems that there is some parallel with African male
presence in the Arab world which is lower than that
of African females, due to things like castration
operations on African males, or other restrictions on opportunities
for said males to reproduce, and greater attrition
under hard working conditions such as military slavery,
or harsh labor projects (eg.the Zanj draining salt marshes
in Iraq) (Lewis 1994, Race and Slavery in the Middle East et al).

Low rates of Euro male presence should thus be nothing
surprising in North African context. Other factors
impact the complex North African landscape but I
am glad you point out the supreme irony above, and
the devastating implications for assorted Euro cultists.
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
Here's some other interesting maps of rock art and thus people distribution in the Sahara and Northern Africa. It's the first time I see such rock art distribution map for Africa. Usually, it is often limited by one specific site (like the Tassili rock art map) or is simply not extensive enough (a lot of sites are still not discovered and/or listed).

They can all be seen in the full study link here :


Another great rock art distribution map. Here rock art drawing of the African Elephant (Loxodonta africana) in the Sahara and Northern Africa matches Giraffe distribution recently in the south.



Great rock art distribution map. Here rock art drawings of the Giraffe in the Sahara and Northern Africa matches recent distribution in the south.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Having earlier pointed out the impossibility of
Henn's late dates for sub-Sahara African entries
into supra-Saharan Africa as there are text and
art documents preceding 1250 CE Egypt and texts
before 800 CE south Morocco where they appear,
I now look at Henn's Tunisian population structure
skyline where any possible SSA component disappears
from K=4 on and this is based on 279,528 SNPs.

quote:

---

At k = 6 through 8, all North African populations except
for Tunisians have sub-Saharan ancestry, present in most
individuals, though this ancestry varies between 1%–55%.

---

quote:

---

Our sample of Tunisian Berbers retains the highest
amount of Maghrebi ancestry, without substantial
evidence of admixture with sub-Saharan, European
or Near Eastern populations.

---

quote:

---

---

Must have been hard to find 18 Tunisians with
absolutely no sub-Saharan Africa progenitors.

And as for what both uniparentals can confirm


Thats 34% L derived and 16% A B E(xE1b1b1a,b)
and 9% E-M2 (E1b1b1a) without considering
how much of P is R-V88.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Repeat after me....

lineage!, lineage! lineage!, lineage! lineage!, lineage!

PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2, PN2
L2*, L1*, L3*, L0*,L2*, L1*, L3*, L0*,L2*, L1*, L3*, L0*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB] Having earlier pointed out the impossibility of
Henn's late dates for sub-Sahara African entries
into supra-Saharan Africa as there are text and
art documents preceding 1250 CE Egypt and texts
before 800 CE south Morocco where they appear,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Contemporary Maghreb populations essentially lack the common European-specific NRY markers, in contrast to the often made reference to lopsided southwest European mtDNA input. This is the sort of pattern one would expect of...

1) ...

2) a situation wherein the male segments of the source population of the emigrant community were effectively exterminated, leaving the female counterparts to become available to the exterminators, who would obviously have to be male in sex orientation.

Or yet...

3)...

---

I never mentioned the "extermination" factor which
may have been shunting off males with no previous
North African maternity.

Knowing the Kikuyu and Maasai conducted death raids
against each other saving alive and taking only younger
females and the lack of nrY hgs expected by South Europe
whole family settlers (unless hidden in E-M78 or whatever)
and rock art of chalk white men with European armaments
but never with women or in family scenes makes one wonder.


Nicky: Gottdamn Libyans welcomed us in, adapted our weapons, stole our wimmens and kicked us out.
Guido: Aw shut your ass up and keep a steppin'! Effin' desert's got plenty hot air without addin' yours.
Nicky: Hey! Where's Stavros? STAVROS...STAVROS...
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB] Having earlier pointed out the impossibility of
Henn's late dates for sub-Sahara African entries
into supra-Saharan Africa as there are text and
art documents preceding 1250 CE Egypt and texts
before 800 CE south Morocco where they appear,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Contemporary Maghreb populations essentially lack the common European-specific NRY markers, in contrast to the often made reference to lopsided southwest European mtDNA input. This is the sort of pattern one would expect of...

1) ...

2) a situation wherein the male segments of the source population of the emigrant community were effectively exterminated, leaving the female counterparts to become available to the exterminators, who would obviously have to be male in sex orientation.

Or yet...

3)...

---

I never mentioned the "extermination" factor which
may have been shunting off males with no previous
North African maternity.

Knowing the Kikuyu and Maasai conducted death raids
against each other saving alive and taking only younger
females and the lack of nrY hgs expected by South Europe
whole family settlers (unless hidden in E-M78 or whatever)
and rock art of chalk white men with European armaments
but never with women or in family scenes makes one wonder.


Nicky: Gottdamn Libyans welcomed us in, adapted our weapons, stole our wimmens and kicked us out.
Guido: Aw shut your ass up and keep a steppin'! Effin' desert's got plenty hot air without addin' yours.
Nicky: Hey! Where's Stavros? STAVROS...STAVROS...

---

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^Don't see what's good about speculating **in the face of hard data that makes such speculation obsolete**. Its like endlessly wondering whether your food is tasty, when you can just as easy take a bite.

If you ask me, you'd have to be borderline retarded to be talking endlessly about what YOU think is inconsistent with early prehistoric contact between the two populations, when all you have to do is look at the coalescence ages of the shared genetic material to see when both ancestries diverged. That's where Henn et al, Rosa et al, Frigi et al, Maca=meyer et al, Achilli et al, Price et al come in (and make no mistake, the list is far longer). They all uniformly agree that Berbers carry European ancestry that is separate from/older than recent European geneflow.

The other camp, who stubbornly maintain their emotion driven beef with objective reality, is forsaken, save for Explorer, and his fellow disgruntled Afronuts of course.

BTW, Cushitic speaking Horners have most of their ties with Central and West Africans through their maternal lineages, while their y chromosomes are largely an amalgam of y chromosomes from the wider region. In this sense, the paucity of West/Central African specific y chromosomes in Cushitic speakers is comparable to the paucity of Iberian y chromosomes in North Africans. I fail to see how this argues against prehistoric mingling in either Cushitic speakers or Berber speakers. In fact, it doesn't, as evinced by hard data.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What is the dating on this ....and location ie point of entry?

 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Genetic heritage of the Coastal N. African population is due to a long drawn out process rather than recent slave markets, the question becomes..why are European/Eurasian male DNA not reflected?

Keita notes the missing Euro males in his Manchester
video as well I think but does not elaborate. Recent
gene flow is one factor, and ancient gene flow before
the historic era another. Ancient "Eurasian" gene
flow into coastal North Africa would not be
surprising if the process of backflow is allowed for,
though Keita specifically cautions against use of
the "Eurasian" label.

""The historical linguistic data reported earlier would apply in the case of maternal lineages as well.. it is not likely that the "northern" genetic profile is simply due to "Eurasians" having colonized supra-Saharan regions from external African sources. It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called "Eurasian" are predominantly, although not solely, of indigenous African origin. As a term "Eurasian" is likely misleading, since it suggests a single locale of geographical origins. This is because it can be postulated that differentiation of the L3* haplogroup began before the emigration out of Africa, and that there would be indigenous supra-Saharan/Saharan or Horn-supra-Saharan haplotypes. More work and careful analysis of mtDNA and the archeological data and likely probabilities is needed. Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion."
--Keita, A, Boyce, A. (2005) Genetics, Egypt, and History... History in Africa, 32, 221-246


Arnaiz-Villena 2000 suggests male dominance and a
polygamic format- males with several females- and
extends this to suggest dominant indigenous North
African males perhaps crossing over into Iberia.
He bases this argument on HLA polymorphisms. If
true, one possible extended scenario would have
the dominant North African males crossing over
into Iberia, and removing Euro females from thence
to relocate back into North Africa. This could account
for the the imbalance of Euro females- they were
relocated by North African males under different formats-
marriage, slavery, etc etc.
Prehistoric Iberia: Genetics, Anthropology and
Linguistics: Proceedings of ... 2000.
Antonio Arnaiz Villena et al, and Arnaiz-Villena 1997.

Thus multiple scenarios are possible- the ancient pre-historic
movements of Euro females into Africa, and also,
the historic slave trade in Euro females that was
to occur millennia later. Another scenario is for
ancient "backflow" to also involve the polygamic
format- dominant males with some African DNA relocating
or arriving with Euro DNA females. Whatever the
actual mix, ancient female "Eurasian" DNA on the coast can
be accommodated under a variety of scenarios, and
would not be a matter of surprise at all, nor is
anyone denying the presence of such ancient DNA.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Having earlier pointed out the impossibility of
Henn's late dates for sub-Sahara African entries
into supra-Saharan Africa as there are text and
art documents preceding 1250 CE Egypt and texts
before 800 CE south Morocco where they appear,

---

which ethnic groups or cultures are you referring to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

What is the dating on this ....and location ie point of entry?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] Genetic heritage of the Coastal N. African population is due to a long drawn out process rather than recent slave markets, the question becomes..why are European/Eurasian male DNA not reflected?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Jari's point is the lower prevalence of the male DNA
not its actual existence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

What is the dating on this ....and location ie point of entry?

---

From Rock art, tomb paintings, and Fulani clothes
also Mission Henri Lhote facsimile fakes qq.v.

Jabbaren in the Tassili (600 miles inland from Tunisia/Libya
Mediterranean coast), dating to c. 2500 BCE per Malika Hachid (link).

She is perhaps 1000 years too early?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
you brothas got to stop that nonseensical belief that whites are an isloated albino African group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Remember the first modern European to be civilized, somewhat, were the Myceneans, after the sacking and revolt in Crete.

Geography correlates. Description checks out, but date don't align.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Remember the first modern European to be civilized, somewhat, were the Myceneans, after the sacking and revolt in Crete.

Geography correlates. Description checks out, but date don't align.

---

What about Cucuteni-Trypillian culture?
(c. 4800 to 3000 B.C.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Remember the first modern European to be civilized, somewhat, were the Myceneans, after the sacking and revolt in Crete.

Geography correlates. Description checks out, but date don't align.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Civilization, to me,

1. Has a means of reliable sustenance ie agriculture.
2. Towns, Arts, Tradesmen, class structure.
3. Maritime fleets, Soldier etc.

600miles into inner Africa is NOT Demic diffusion. That looks more like expedition and exploration. OR!! they are locals.

That is why I am questioning the date and location. 2500BCE would put Europeans on par with AE...which we know is far from the truth.


My knee jerk reaction response would be...FAKE. But the location seems about right. My second reaction is - are we sure they are Europeans. You confirmed that by the apparent clothing.

Next up is date.


Another point of view was ... Saharan view of Death. ie white. But the clothing does not support that view.

---

There are some fairly extensive amateur photos
of Tassili including the Akakus out there but
so far none as those two Tin Anneuin school men.


The Tin Anneuin school paintings have this theme:
* tall and slender figures painted in white
* always in profile
* often white feathers in hair
* usually wearing a neck clasped ocher colored cape
* often handling throw-stick baton, spear, or a small bow
* short sword with scabbard not at the waist but the neck and chest
* ornaments represented by ocher band around the forehead and ankles
* almost always seen standing or walking single file
* never in any other action
* never involved in everyday life
* Women never portrayed.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Definitely foreigners. Date? Iron age. Why? Metal swords.

Most likely Roman expedition.

Question: are there similar depictions, in caves, on the other side of the sea? Brown or chalk white?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT

"tall and slender figures painted ".

Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.

This is one of the most popular fallacy.

Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please


BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
I would not say "huge" across the board. The word
huge is misleading. Some whites may have more body
mass- one pattern of cold (or diet) adaptation but that does
not mean they are "huge". Some Bantu types are as
big as any European. And of course some elongated
African groups on the average surpass Europeans in height.

And of course, some black folk have increased body mass
due to dietary patterns in the Nile Valley, not the
reputed invasions of Europeans or "Middle Easterners."
Just pointing that out to guard against various distortions
some Eurofools make about tropical African diversity.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
The statistics lists the entire Dutch nation, but
certain African tribes WITHIN a nation like the
Masai are taller on average than the Dutch or Scandinavians.
The Dutch average of 6 feet is surpassed by the
Masai and other specific East African groups WITHIN
individual nations. Some books list the Tutsi as
the tallest..

"who physically resemble southern Europeans
and Arabs of the Middle East, Africa is the home
both of Pygmies, who inhabit the Congo rain
forest as hunters and gatherers, and of the
tallest people known in the world, the Masai"

-William Hardy McNeill - 1999 -A world history -
Page 472

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
You know explorer brings up a good point, that is say me, Al and Swenet are correct in that the Genetic heritage of the Coastal N. African population is due to a long drawn out process rather than recent slave markets, the question becomes..why are European/Eurasian male DNA not reflected? Good question.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Contemporary Maghreb populations essentially lack the common European-specific NRY markers, in contrast to the often made reference to lopsided southwest European mtDNA input. This is the sort of pattern one would expect of...

1) ...

2) a situation wherein the male segments of the source population of the emigrant community were effectively exterminated, leaving the female counterparts to become available to the exterminators, who would obviously have to be male in sex orientation.

Or yet...

3)...

---

I never mentioned the "extermination" factor which
may have been shunting off males with no previous
North African maternity.

Knowing the Kikuyu and Maasai conducted death raids
against each other saving alive and taking only younger
females and the lack of nrY hgs expected by South Europe
whole family settlers (unless hidden in E-M78 or whatever)
and rock art of chalk white men with European armaments
but never with women or in family scenes makes one wonder.


Nicky: Gottdamn Libyans welcomed us in, adapted our weapons, stole our wimmens and kicked us out.
Guido: Aw shut your ass up and keep a steppin'! Effin' desert's got plenty hot air without addin' yours.
Nicky: Hey! Where's Stavros? STAVROS...STAVROS...

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT

"tall and slender figures painted ".

Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.

This is one of the most popular fallacy.

Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please


BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Also keep in mind that Tunisia is the location of ancient Carthage which was completely destroyed and repopulated by Romans. So you cannot expect to find an accurate reflection of ancient population structure among modern populations when the ancient populations were relatively small and easily affected by outside influence. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Also keep in mind that Tunisia is the location of ancient Carthage which was completely destroyed and repopulated by Romans. So you cannot expect to find an accurate reflection of ancient population structure among modern populations when the ancient populations were relatively small and easily affected by outside influence.

---

If you went back to Carthage at it's height it had a half a million people and were primarily Phoenicians from what is now Lebanon [/QB]

---

But today's Lebanese are mostly Turk immigrants from the Caucasus region being Armenia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, etc. They came durning the reign of the Seljuks and Ottoman Turks who settled millions of their brethrens over the course of 400 years in what is today called middle east region including Lebanon.

Europeans settlers from France and Italy joined in the colonial era.

Skunt, Lebanon today is a land conquered and settled by albino colonialist, just like Americas...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT

"tall and slender figures painted ".

Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.

This is one of the most popular fallacy.

Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please


BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!

---

The figures on the above rock art could be stylized so that their proportions were not realistic.
The figures could be people of Canaanite descent rather than Europeans.

Looking at the following Canaanite Phoenician descended Libyans and other ethnic groups depicted by the Egyptians they are all shown with similar proportion




Libu Libyans, Book of Gates. Tomb of Rameses III
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Why do you say Ramesside era generically labeled
Temehu are Canaanite Phoenicians instead of natives?

Please provide support such as migration dates and
locations of established colonies and none of the
sophistric reasoning or intuitive guesswork, thank you.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

What is the dating on this ....and location ie point of entry?

---

From Rock art, tomb paintings, and Fulani clothes
also Mission Henri Lhote facsimile fakes qq.v.

Jabbaren in the Tassili (600 miles inland from Tunisia/Libya
Mediterranean coast), dating to c. 2500 BCE per Malika Hachid (link).

She is perhaps 1000 years too early?

---

I believe the date is probably 2500 years too early.


The picture above is of a Roman soldier marching. It is not ancient.






This is nothing but a Roman soldier note the crest on the helmet, and the shield carried on the back along with the cloak/toga. The Roman soldier appears to be marching doubletime.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Looking at the following Canaanite
Phoenician descended Libyans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The Tin Anneuin school paintings have this theme:

* tall and slender figures painted in white
* always in profile
* often white feathers in hair
* usually wearing a neck clasped ocher colored cape
* often handling throw-stick baton, spear, or a small bow
* short sword with scabbard not at the waist but the neck and chest
* ornaments represented by ocher band around the forehead and ankles
* almost always seen standing or walking single file
* never in any other action
* never involved in everyday life
* Women never portrayed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT

"tall and slender figures painted ".

Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.

This is one of the most popular fallacy.

Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please


BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!

---

lioness: The figures on the above rock art could be stylized so that their proportions were not realistic.
The figures could be people of Canaanite descent rather than Europeans.

Looking at the following Canaanite Phoenician descended Libyans and other ethnic groups depicted by the Egyptians they are all shown with similar proportion




Libu Libyans, Book of Gates. Tomb of Rameses III

---

I retract "Canaanite Phoenician descended Libyans"

That applies to the much later Cartheginians around 800 BC not Ramesses III period (1186–1155 BC)

However who are these Libyans above?
Were they indignous Africans?
Didn't Nicky aka alTakruri say:
" Gottdamn Libyans welcomed us in, adapted our weapons, stole our wimmens and kicked us out..where's Stavros? "
I think they probably weren't, what do you think?
The Phoenicians were an enterprising maritime trading culture that spread across the Mediterranean from 1550 BC to 300 BC.
The ancient Libyans of the type pictured may have been Phoenician or 'Sea people' of some sort. They could have been people who migrated into North Africa slowly over a long period of time rather than later larger migrations leading up to Carthage. Unlike Europeans Near Easterners are xxyman approved
In addition to the above pale and often yellowish toned Libyans thers is also another type of Libyan you will see in the Egyptian art as more reddish. Both skin tones can be found in the Levant and North Africa
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
how about a belt match?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
There was never a significant barrier between Africa and Southern Europe. No matter how much these Euronuts fantasize and make up shyte about that, applying their modern sociopolitical boundaries and classification. Most migration was one way. Why?. The Saharan population was technologically more advanced for 40,000yrs. It is only within the last 600yrs modern Europeans over took Africans.

1.0 RECONSTRUCTING ANCIENT MITOCHONDRIAL DNA LINKS BETWEEN AFRICA AND EUROPE.
Cerezo M, Achilli A, Olivieri A, Perego UA, Gómez-Carballa A, Brisighelli F, Lancioni H, Woodward SR, López-Soto M, Carracedo A, Capelli C, Torroni A, Salas A.
8.1.1 Source
Unidade de Xenética, Departamento de Anatomía Patolóxica e Ciencias Forenses, and Instituto de Ciencias Forenses, Facultade de Medicina, Universidad de Santiago de Compostela, Santiago de Compostela, Galicia, Spain.
8.1.2 Abstract
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages of macro-haplogroup L (excluding the derived L3 branches M and N) represent the majority of the typical sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. In Europe, these mtDNAs account for <1% of the total but, when analyzed at the level of control region, they show no signals of having evolved within the European continent, an observation that is compatible with a recent arrival from the African continent. To further evaluate this issue, we analyzed 69 mitochondrial genomes belonging to various L sublineages from a wide range of European populations. Phylogeographic analyses showed that ~65% of the European L lineages most likely arrived in rather recent historical times, including the Romanization period, the Arab conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, and during the period of the Atlantic slave trade. However, the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yes. This was an educated guess by me based upon what Altk posted. Notably - because of the sword. Dr. Winters just substantiated this clearly showing these are Roman soldiers. Therefore the dating may really be around 200BCE-300AD. It is no where near 2500BCE which never could be corroborated.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You think alTakruti's description of the general context the figures occur in, are consistent with Romans?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The Tin Anneuin school paintings have this theme:

* tall and slender figures painted in white
* always in profile
* often white feathers in hair
* usually wearing a neck clasped ocher colored cape
* often handling throw-stick baton, spear, or a small bow
* short sword with scabbard not at the waist but the neck and chest
* ornaments represented by ocher band around the forehead and ankles
* almost always seen standing or walking single file
* never in any other action
* never involved in everyday life
* Women never portrayed.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The Saharan population was technologically more advanced for 40,000yrs. It is only within the last 600yrs modern Europeans over took Africans.

---

what was advanced about Saharans 40,000, 30,000, or 20,000 years ago?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
xxyman do you believe that the ancestors of white Europeans were black or do you not believe in that evolution stuff?
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
On average Africans are shorter than Europeans

This may well be due to nutrition and other factors, but tropical African
sub-populations are the tallest people in the world nevertheless.





European average height is about 65 inches even when adding an extra 3 percent for further growth after age 18 as scholars note:

"it is reasonable to add about 3 percent for further growth after age 18, giving an estimated minimum for mean final height of European national populations of about 165cm (65 in)."

and [b]tropical African growth trends are more unless hindered by enviro factors
"..but there seems to be a consistent pattern in all three groups.. Children of African stock are more advanced in growth at all ages than European children unless their growth has been restricted by environmental factors, and it therefore seems likely that infection would have been the main factor responsible for this slowing down in height growth.."

--Floud et al 1990 Health, Health and History

Dutch height is comparatively recent due to health care and nutrition. quote:
"the Dutch are not tall because they need extra height to survive the cold.. they didn't start getting tall until about 150 years ago, so their height can't possibly be an evolutionary adaptation... Dutch height is a tribute to their health care and social services systems.."
--The New Yorker 80 I 1-9 2004.

Tropical African height is consistently more over human history going back to ancient Turkana boy :
"At eight years old, Turkana Boy was already five feet three inches tall. If he had lived to adulthood, he would have stood more than six feet tall. People who live in hot climates tend to be tall like Turkana Boy. Over generations, tallness evolved in populations living in hot climates because a long body exposes a lot of skin to the air, making it easy to cool off."
-- Peter Robertshaw, Jill Rubalcaba 2005 The Early Human World. Oxford University PRess.

Small sample sizes do not show the full range of African heights as the scientific literature notes: qu0te-
"The Turkana data are rather uneven probably due to small sample sizes."
--Worldwide Variation in Human Growth. 1991. Phyllis B. Eveleth, James M. Tanner

In any event, historical data shows certain African groups WITHIN nations
are the tallest people in the world.


 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What’s this? Small Talk?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
xxyman do you believe that the ancestors of white Europeans were black or do you not believe in that evolution stuff?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] On average Africans are shorter than Europeans

This may well be due to nutrition and other factors, but tropical African
sub-populations are the tallest people in the world nevertheless.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
What’s this? Small Talk?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
xxyman do you believe that the ancestors of white Europeans were black or do you not believe in that evolution stuff?

---

---

^^^^ avoidance.

I had discovered early on certain ES members secretly didn't believe in evolution. You may not go that far but I sense you are a closeted multi-regionalist
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I dunno. This Roman soldier hypothesis recalls days
of yore when a lost in Sahara Roman legion supposedly
spawned the Fulani. Anyway the art style obviously predates
the crude Roman era contemporaneous "Libyan Warrior" etchings
when the art of painting, even crudely, was long lost along with
the people skilled enough to produce them.

1200-800BCE seems the Final Bovidian to first Horse period
timeframe where the two "white" guys (TWG) belong. Zooming
(CTRL +) the image faces they look orthoganous sharp nosed
with a goatee.

Ethno-historians call them paleo-Berbers all in a class of
Tassili and Akakus prehistoric paintings at Iheren-Tahilahi
as well as Tin Anneuin, sites of whites/near whites with
throw-sticks/batons, sheep and goats in distinction to
bows and cattle of earlier and darker Saharans.

Littoral Maghreb -- Morocco to Tunisia -- was a trading
partner with Iberian and Italian peninsula and island
South Europeans as evidenced by cardial pottery, obsidian,
beakers, and other commodities going back to the Neolithic.
Further east, Libya was in touch with Aegeans at least since
Minoan times per archeaology (earlier if admitting Greek myth).

Right now all I can say about the TWG (as fair as for
other people/painting correlations) is they're itinerant
familyless whites in the central Sahara but originating
northward African admixed with Mediterranean island
or Mediterranean north shores peoples.

My view is they may be Libyan culture adapted foreign
male settlers turned out into the desert by, in the
ancient Greek sense, Libyans of native matrilineal ties.
They could just as well be chiefs and dignataries making
a round from encampment to encampment in a show of authority.

To see a diagnostic useful quantity of these particular
Saharan paintings perusal of Muzzolini's Sahariens
and Hachid's Berberes is a must.

There's nothing different in the profile of the various
related Tassili Akakus W/NWs than ancient Tamehu
or todays Berber speaking Mauritanian Zenaga.




 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 






although I'm not sure about Libyan footwear, this looks like the traps of a Roman sandal. Also Libyans typically have two feathers going off on two angles,
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Granted, whereas Roman legionaires have no headgear as depicted.

The suggested timeframe is Sea Peoples and a few centuries after.

But as noted by trade they weren't the only nor the first
foreign whites or near whites maintaining a supra-Saharan presence.

Introduction of Romanesque sandals may be due to Chalcolithic
Tunisian-Italian trade with pre-Roman peoples of the peninsula
or of native design and manufacture. Sandal making is ubiquitous
but yes regional styles should vary and could be an ethnic cue.

I can't rule out any of the prpositions though
the Roman legion era seems anachronistic to
me. Remember Mererye fled from the Egyptian
forces leaving his sandals in haste behind him
and Egyptian forces captured 9111 copper swords
from the Meshwesh, the westernmost "Eastern Libyans".
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
For example you started with Masaai now you're on Dinka
Roberts and Bainbridge reported the average height of 182.6 cm (5 ft 11.9 in)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.1330210309

ROgers and Bainbridge did for their sample in 1963,
but scholars Eveleth and Tanner using a broader dataset,
and Floud et al, report measurements that place
the Dinka taller than the Dutch. And these
measurements increase in favorable health and
nutritional conditions which are much improved for
the Dinka and other Africans overall since 1963.
Just as the Dutch are not sitting still neither
are the Dinka and other Africans.

^ D. F. Roberts, D. R. Bainbridge: Nilotic physique. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 1963, p. 341-370.


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:






although I'm not sure about Libyan footwear, this looks like the traps of a Roman sandal. Also Libyans typically have two feathers going off on two angles,

---

LMAO. Reaching is your full time profession, isn't it? We're now dating rock art using trivial, non-specific, sandal straps? SMH.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ wrong, they are specific sandal straps


and they have a cloak like Romans and a plume

I don't know if it's Roman for sure but I am following Clyde's teachings





^^^^ what's going on here ?

The dating of this rock art is hotly debated and cannot be tested easily. The last camel period is 200 BC to present because nobody knows when it stopped
Other books say the camel periods starts 100 Bc some say "after 1200 BC"

The name "camel" comes from Arabic ǧml, meaning "beauty"
The Persian invasion of Egypt under Cambyses in 525 BC introduced domesticated camels to the area. The Persian camels, however, were not particularly suited to trading or travel over the Sahara; rare journeys made across the desert were made on chariots pulled by horses.
The dromedaries (one hump Arabian camel) became common after the Islamic conquest of North Africa.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Anthropometric measurements of the Nilotic tribes in a refugee camp.
Chali D.
Source
Yekatit 12 Hospital, Addis Abeba, Ethiopia.

Abstract
The heights and weights of 2,233 randomly selected adult Nilotic immigrants from Southern Sudan (50.8% Dinkas, 43.8% Nuers, 3.4% Anuaks and 2.0% Shilluks) that have settled in Itang, Southwestern Ethiopia were measured. The mean height, weight and body mass index [BMI = weight(kg)/the square of height(m2)] of men (N = 1,1618) were 175.9 + 9 cm) (+/- SD), 59.7 +/- 8 kg, and 19.4 +/- 2, respectively, and those of women (N = 615) were 169.0 +/- 7 cm, 54.0 +/- 8 kg, and 19.1 +/- 3, respectively. The mean height of Dinka men (176.4 +/- 9 cm) and Nuer men (175.7 +/- 9 cm) were significantly higher than that of Anuak men (171.7 +/- 8 cm) and Shilluk men (172.6 +/- 6.1 cm). The Nuer women's mean height, weight and BMI were significantly lower than those of the other tribes'. This study confirms that the Nilotics in Southern Sudan have slender bodies and are amongst the tallest in the world, and may attain greater height if priviledged with favourable environmental conditions during early childhood and adolescence, allowing full expression of the genetic material.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] On average Africans are shorter than Europeans

This may well be due to nutrition and other factors, but tropical African
sub-populations are the tallest people in the world nevertheless.

---

that has to be proven with a height average number and compared to Dutch and Serbians as well as sub-populations of Dutch and Serbians

For example you started with Masaai now you're on Dinka
Roberts and Bainbridge reported the average height of 182.6 cm (5 ft 11.9 in)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.1330210309

---

http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html




http://www.nationalgeographic.nl/magazine/actueel/een-leven-lang


Hoe lang is Nederland nog het langste volk ter wereld?

quote:

---

Nederlanders zijn het langste volk ter wereld, maar hoe lang nog? Uit onderzoek blijkt dat de gemiddelde lengte van Nederlanders de laatste 13 jaar niet is toegenomen en dat is uitzonderlijk. De afgelopen 160 jaar is dit niet eerder gebeurd.

---

http://nos.nl/video/163559-hoe-lang-is-nederland-nog-het-langste-volk-ter-wereld.html


Nederlanders steeds langer en zwaarder

De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.

Hoger opgeleiden zijn gemiddeld langer dan lager opgeleiden. Het verschil tussen het laagste en hoogste opleidingsniveau bedraagt bijna 7 cm. Dat is voor een deel te verklaren doordat mannen en jongeren in het algemeen beter opgeleid zijn dan vrouwen en ouderen. Als daarmee rekening wordt gehouden, verschillen de laagst en hoogst opgeleiden nog altijd 3 cm in lichaamslengte.

Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)




Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.

Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar stedelijkheid woongemeente, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)



Overgewicht

In het algemeen worden onder- en overgewicht uitgedrukt met de Quetelet Index (QI). Vier van de tien volwassen Nederlanders hebben een QI van 25 of hoger en zijn dus te zwaar. Van ernstig overgewicht – uitgedrukt met een QI van 30 of meer – heeft 8% last.

Met name in de leeftijdsgroep 65-74 jaar is het percentage personen met overgewicht relatief hoog. Van deze ouderen heeft 57% een QI van 25 of meer.

Sedert 1981 is het percentage volwassenen met ernstig overgewicht – dus een QI van 30 of meer – met gemiddeld 0,2 procentpunt per jaar gestegen.

In het algemeen hebben naar verhouding meer lager dan hoger opgeleiden last van (ernstig) overgewicht.

Overgewicht van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)





In niet stedelijke gebieden is het percentage personen dat met overgewicht te kampen heeft, zo’n 5 procentpunten hoger dan in de zeer sterk stedelijke. Het percentage personen dat last heeft van ernstig overgewicht is daarentegen vrijwel gelijk.

Overgewicht van Nederlanders naar stedelijkheid woongemeente, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)




http://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/archief/1999/1999-0206-wm.htm
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Foundation of Human Culture - Human Morphological Variation

quote:

---

Africans include both the worlds tallest (if not exactly the largest) people and the world's smallest people. The Nuer, Masai, Watusi, and similar peoples of East Central Africa are the world's tallest and among the worlds largest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Lioness, dumbass, you're reaching. The depicted feather in hair by itself has much more affinity with ancient Egyptian, and, especially, ancient Nubian and Libyan customs. This observation is strengthened by their sharing of a similar looking headband.

As for the sandals, again, you're reaching. There is nothing specific about the sandal straps under discussion. Sandal with straps above the ankle are as much an innovation as a boot is relative to a shoe. Its an inevitable innovation that no doubt was spread all across the Mediterranean and adjacent areas (as seen in Egyptian depictions of Minoans, or Assyrians in their own artwork), and could have easily been invented independently many times.

---

Speak to Clyde. he is tha master I am the student



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Clyde Winters: Romans
alTakruri: Libyans
Swenet: Egyptians
xyyman: indigenous African Caucasoid

Swenet, show an adult MALE egyptian with a feather and headband

leeuwin producties
elke dag als een vitamine
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html

De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html

Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.

---

quote:

---

Swenet, show an adult MALE egyptian with a feather and headband

---

Now what, liarness?
BTW, does your challenge to me forebode that you'll do the same now from your end, i.e., posting Roman instances of headbands tied at the back of the head, complemented with a feather? Or is this yet another unilateral demand for proof, to get people to disprove a claim you've had no qualms with assuming a priori, like the presumptuous airhead that you are?
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html

De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.

---

maar ook gezegd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html

Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.

---

groot verschil

zoals het feit dat de Dinka en de Maasai zijn subpopulaties van Soedan de Nederlanders slechts twee provincies van Nederland en het landelijke Nederlanders zijn een sub bevolking alle Nederlanders met verschillen zo veel als 2 inch

Hier is de beste statistieken bron voor Nederland, hoewel het nog steeds niet de landelijke Nederlandse specifiek

http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?DM=SLEN&PA=81175ENG&D1=13-24&D2=1-2&D3=a&D4=0&D5=l&LA=EN&VW=T

leeuwin producties
de broer met klompen

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Anthropometric measurements of the Nilotic tribes in a refugee camp.
Chali D.
Source
Yekatit 12 Hospital, Addis Abeba, Ethiopia.

Abstract
The heights and weights of 2,233 randomly selected adult Nilotic immigrants from Southern Sudan (50.8% Dinkas, 43.8% Nuers, 3.4% Anuaks and 2.0% Shilluks) that have settled in Itang, Southwestern Ethiopia were measured. The mean height, weight and body mass index [BMI = weight(kg)/the square of height(m2)] of men (N = 1,1618) were 175.9 + 9 cm) (+/- SD), 59.7 +/- 8 kg, and 19.4 +/- 2, respectively, and those of women (N = 615) were 169.0 +/- 7 cm, 54.0 +/- 8 kg, and 19.1 +/- 3, respectively. The mean height of Dinka men (176.4 +/- 9 cm) and Nuer men (175.7 +/- 9 cm) were significantly higher than that of Anuak men (171.7 +/- 8 cm) and Shilluk men (172.6 +/- 6.1 cm). The Nuer women's mean height, weight and BMI were significantly lower than those of the other tribes'. This study confirms that the Nilotics in Southern Sudan have slender bodies and are amongst the tallest in the world, and may attain greater height if priviledged with favourable environmental conditions during early childhood and adolescence, allowing full expression of the genetic material.

---

^A small sample from a refugee camp in 1995- hardly
earth-shattering, or representative. And since they
were refugees, nutritional problems could affect growth-
the sample is clearly skewed without taking into
account the full population picture.




and tropical African growth trends are more unless hindered by enviro factors
"..but there seems to be a consistent pattern in all three groups.. Children of African stock are more advanced in growth at all ages than European children unless their growth has been restricted by environmental factors, and it therefore seems likely that infection would have been the main factor responsible for this slowing down in height growth.."

--Floud et al 1990 Health, Health and History

Dutch height is comparatively recent due to health care and nutrition. quote:
"the Dutch are not tall because they need extra height to survive the cold.. they didn't start getting tall until about 150 years ago, so their height can't possibly be an evolutionary adaptation... Dutch height is a tribute to their health care and social services systems.."
--The New Yorker 80 I 1-9 2004.


Dinka height statistics are often cited from 1963, but this ignores
much improved nutritional conditions overall for East Africans since then. 1995 stats draw from
impoverished, starving refugees not a full snapshot
of the population. Just as Europeans are not sitting still,
neither are Africans

ROgers and Bainbridge cited almost 6 feet for the Dinka in 1963, but
scholars Eveleth and Tanner using a broader dataset, and Floud et al,
report measurements that place the Dinka taller than other populations.
And these measurements increase in favorable health and nutritional
conditions which are much improved for the Dinka overall since 1963

^ D. F. Roberts, D. R. Bainbridge: Nilotic physique. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 1963, p. 341-370


Tropical African height is consistently more over human history going back to ancient Turkana boy :
"At eight years old, Turkana Boy was already five feet three inches tall. If he had lived to adulthood, he would have stood more than six feet tall. People who live in hot climates tend to be tall like Turkana Boy. Over generations, tallness evolved in populations living in hot climates because a long body exposes a lot of skin to the air, making it easy to cool off."
-- Peter Robertshaw, Jill Rubalcaba 2005 The Early Human World. Oxford University PRess.

Small sample sizes do not show the full range of African heights as the scientific literature notes: qu0te-
"The Turkana data are rather uneven probably due to small sample sizes."
--Worldwide Variation in Human Growth. 1991. Phyllis B. Eveleth, James M. Tanner

In any event, historical data shows certain African groups WITHIN nations
are the tallest people in the world. They are not sitting
static and also have seen benefits of better nutrition.



----------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

IN DUTCH:
Hoe lang is Nederland nog het langste volk ter wereld?

quote: Nederlanders zijn het langste volk ter wereld, maar hoe lang nog? Uit onderzoek blijkt dat de gemiddelde lengte van Nederlanders de laatste 13 jaar niet is toegenomen en dat is uitzonderlijk. De afgelopen 160 jaar is dit niet eerder gebeurd.

http://nos.nl/video/163559-hoe-lang-is-nederland-nog-het-langste-volk-ter-wereld.html


Nederlanders steeds langer en zwaarder

De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.

Hoger opgeleiden zijn gemiddeld langer dan lager opgeleiden. Het verschil tussen het laagste en hoogste opleidingsniveau bedraagt bijna 7 cm. Dat is voor een deel te verklaren doordat mannen en jongeren in het algemeen beter opgeleid zijn dan vrouwen en ouderen. Als daarmee rekening wordt gehouden, verschillen de laagst en hoogst opgeleiden nog altijd 3 cm in lichaamslengte.

Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)

-


Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.

Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar stedelijkheid woongemeente, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)

-

Overgewicht

In het algemeen worden onder- en overgewicht uitgedrukt met de Quetelet Index (QI). Vier van de tien volwassen Nederlanders hebben een QI van 25 of hoger en zijn dus te zwaar. Van ernstig overgewicht – uitgedrukt met een QI van 30 of meer – heeft 8% last.

Met name in de leeftijdsgroep 65-74 jaar is het percentage personen met overgewicht relatief hoog. Van deze ouderen heeft 57% een QI van 25 of meer.

Sedert 1981 is het percentage volwassenen met ernstig overgewicht – dus een QI van 30 of meer – met gemiddeld 0,2 procentpunt per jaar gestegen.

In het algemeen hebben naar verhouding meer lager dan hoger opgeleiden last van (ernstig) overgewicht.

Overgewicht van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)


IN ENGLISH
How long the Netherlands is the tallest people in the world?

quote: The Dutch are the tallest people in the world, but for how long? Research shows that the average length of Dutch the last 13 years has not increased and that is exceptional. The last 160 years has not happened before.

http://nos.nl/video/163559-hoe-lang-is-nederland-nog-het-langste-volk-ter-wereld.html


Dutch longer and heavier

The adult resident of the Netherlands is on average 173.5 cm long. Adult men are on average 180 cm long, 13 cm longer than adult women.

Higher education are on average longer than less educated. The difference between the lowest and highest educational level is nearly 7 cm. This is partly due to the fact men and young people in general better educated than women and the elderly. If taken into account, differences in the lowest and highest education still 3 cm in body length.

-------------

^^Patrol your Dutch translation says this below 180cm.. QUOTE:


The adult resident of the Netherlands is on average 173.5 cm long. Adult men are on average 180 cm long, 13 cm longer than adult women.

WHich is still shorter than the DInka studies..



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
damn I'm firing that translator

It was supposed to read "to the brother with clogs" meaning you Troll


to zarahan

About Netherlanders,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html

Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.

---

translation:

"People in non-urbanized areas are on average almost 2 inches longer than people in highly urbanized areas.
"

If you want to make a better height comparison to the Netherlands it would be to Sudan (although Sudan has over twice the popualtion of the Netherlands

But Holland is only two of the twelve provinces of the Netherlands. But more importantly the rural Dutch can be up to two inches taller than the urban Dutch.
That is a sub population like the the Dinka or Masaai are within Sudan.
So the fair comparison is the rural Dutch to the Dinka rather than the whole of the Netherlands.

Thanks for the article Troll
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Take a lot at this guys. Interpret the data!!!! Read the article. Those that have at least a high school education should be able to figure it out.
This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.


Hints:

1. Tunisia column is very important BOTH the Berbers and the" arabs".

2. Compare NE/AP vs IP and note frequency AND H sub-groups of each compared to Tunisia.


Tell me the story here……

from:

Research article Open Access

Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa



from WIKI Quote:

H1

H1 encompasses an important fraction of Western European mtDNA, reaching its local peak among contemporary Basques (27.8%) and appearing at a high frequency among other Iberians and North Africans. Its frequency is above 10% in many other parts of Europe (France, Sardinia, British Isles, Alps, large portions of Eastern Europe), and above 5% in nearly all the continent.[1] Its subclade H1b is most common in eastern Europe and NW Siberia.[9] So far, the highest frequency of H1 - 61%- has been found among the Tuareg of the Fezzan region in Libya.[10][11]
Frequencies of haplogroup H1 in the world (Ottoni et al. 2010)
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What they are implying (speculating) is that the NAians got hg-H from two regions. Note there are no corresponding male lines....so you would think. tic! toc! Europeans are slick!!!!!


Quote:
It also shows that the historical Arabian role on the region had more a cultural than a demic effect. Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled additional mtDNA differences between North African and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously thought


The aims of this paper are: 1) to subdivide the North African haplogroup H lineages into its known subhaplogroups, 2) to establish the phylogenetic and phylogeographic patterns of these subhaplogroups in the region, and 3) to compare them with those present in Europe and the Near East, in order to establish the strength of the human migrations from both continents into North Africa in spatial and temporal dimensions


The relative proximity of the Iberian Peninsula to the westernmost North African populations is graphically reflected in Figure 1a. It is evident that Tunisians and Berbers are closest to the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula. A principal component analysis (PCA) points to subhaplogroups H1 and H3 as being primarily responsible for the Iberian-Moroccan-Saharan connection, whereas H4, H5, H7, H8 and H11 testify the Near East influence (data not shown).
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@Troll Patrol.

Thanks for the link. Casual observation proved this out

1. The predominance of straight hair on a world-wide basis suggests
that it is the original type of hair that the first humans had.

2. If melanin is present in the external layer of the iris then the
eye will be brown. If melanin is lacking, the iris will be colorless but perceived as blue for the same reason that the sky seems blue and a lake seems blue. If melanin is present but unevenly distributed the eye is perceived as a brownish green and is called olive or hazel.

3. Most people in the world have brown eyes

Body size. Heritability estimates for most body size measurements imply that
about 80% of the variability in body size is due to genetic factors (.8 heritiability), and about 20% is due to environmental factors.

A. Sexual dimorphism in body size is typical of humans, with females being
90-95% the size of males in almost all populations.

B. The secular trend. It seems that most of the world's populations are
becoming larger through time. This is part of what is called the secular trend.

Few people think that this is actually a genetic evolutionary trend, and place the cause somewhere in the environment, mostly to diet.
Some biologists have suggested that the secular trend is, in part, the result of selection due to mate choice (called sexual selection).
However, in 1900 I would have served nicely as an 'average' height male in either the US or UK. Now most males are grotesquely taller. In Japan in 1949 the average height of males was not quite 5'4''. Now the average is equal to European males (5'10''). In Pakistan in 1972 the average height of males was just over 5'4'', and is now (for males 18-35) just less than the average for European males. Selection can simply not operate this quickly.
Changes in public sanitation, particularly water supplies may also have an important impact. Most human populations maintain a fairly large disease and parasite load, which compete for the energy produced by the human body. Many of these are transmitted by human waste products which contaminate water, and through water (or lack of it) food.

C. Advantages of large body size. There are some advantages to large body
size.

Big people are stronger.
Bigger people are better predators - a lion can kill a wider variety of prey than a house cat.
Bergman's rule. Large bodies are beneficial in colder climates according to Bergman's rule:
The larger the animal the better it is at retaining heat. That
is why during the glacial times many lineages of animals developed giant forms. Humans follow this rule in a broad way. People living near the poles tend to be larger on the average than those living near the equator, but there are a lot of exceptions. Certainly this is true in the new world where the native americans living in the amazon basin are among the shortest of all native americans.
Larger people are generally faster runners. The fact that their stride length is longer and that they can apply more force with each stride due to larger muscles gives this advantage.

E. Advantages of small body size.

The most important of all selective pressures on body size is that small people require less food and can better survive when food is limited. Famines kill people in size order from largest first to smallest last.
Smaller people are generally quicker and more agile. This is due to the principle of inertia from physics. A larger body takes more force to get moving and more force to change direction than a smaller body does.


F. Distribution of body size.

Europeans have the largest average body size. It is in Europe where Bergman's rule most clearly applies. The largest Europeans are from the far north, and the farther south you go in europe, the smaller the people.
Africans include both the worlds tallest (if not exactly the largest) people and the world's smallest people. The Nuer, Masai, Watusi, and similar peoples of East Central Africa are the world's tallest and among the worlds largest. The Pygmies of West Central Africa and the Khoisan of Southern Africa are among smallest.
Asians and Native Americans usually fall in the middle ranges. Only a few populations could be considered large, maybe the Samoans are one. Many populations could be described as small.

II. Body build. Most of the variation in body build in humans can be reduced
to linear build vs lateral build. Let's contrast an extreme linear build with an extreme lateral build.

A. The extreme linear stereotype would be found in the previously
mentioned tall peoples of East Central Africa. These people are very tall and slender. The chests, shoulders, and hips are very narrow - the narrowest in the world for their height. The limbs are extremely long, especially the legs.

B. The extreme lateral stereotype would be found in some Asian and
Native Americans. Eskimos, Japanese, Samoans, Apache, and many South American Indians exhibit lateral build. A few Caucasoid groups also approach lateral build, especially the peoples of northern Europe. Laterally built people tend to have long and broad trunks, with wider chests, shoulders and hips. The widest hips of all can be found in Europeans. The limb bones tend to be short and the legs make less of a contribution to overall height.

C. Allen's rule. One primary selective force acting on body build
is Allen's rule:

Animals living in colder climates should have shorter appendages
and be more spherical than those living in warmer climates. This says that laterally built people should be found in colder climates and linearly built people in warm climates. This is true for humans on the average. The traditional comparison is between the Inuit and the Masai. The Inuit of the far north tend to be stocky with short arms and legs. The Masai of east africa tend to be very tall and slender, with long arms and legs.

D. These contrasting body builds have definite advantages for
certain tasks. The linear builds seem to have a definite advantage in overall health, especially in that they experience much less heart disease and diabetes than laterally built people. Linear builds have the advantage in running speed - they make great sprinters. The mechanics of long slender legs, as explained in terms of levers and forces, are well designed for fast running. A non-human example is the contrast between cows and antelopes. Cows and antelopes are closely related, but cows are extreme laterals in build and antelopes are more linear. Obviously, antelopes can run faster than cows.

Narrow hips are another advantage in fast running. This is the reason
that most men can run faster than most women. Women have broader hips as an adaptation for childbearing. The muscular arrangements that accompany narrow hips are much more efficient in moving the legs rapidly and powerfully. Since most Europeans have very broad hips you would expect them to be among the world's slowest runners, and this is pretty much what is observed.

E. Lateral builds have an advantage in endurance running, and any
task that requires endurance. This is because the larger rib cage allows more room for a larger heart and lungs. The endurance feats that have been recorded for some Indians are legendary.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
@ TP, great lead was usual!!. That was my knee jerk reaction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Take a lot at this guys. Interpret the data!!!! Read the article. Those that have at least a high school education should be able to figure it out.
This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Clyde Winters: Romans
alTakruri: Libyans
Swenet: Egyptians
xyyman: indigenous African Caucasoid

---

I said either "Libyan" culture adapted turned
out foreigners or admixed "Libyan's" of partial
South European descent. Don't try to simplify me
and make me waste my time and bandwidth back
handing your erroneous simplifications OK. Ask
and I'll tell you my opinion don't tell me what
my opinion is. Respect me.

I've tried to be fair with you but your twists
are getting on my nerves and about to pop
my last stitch and break my camel's back.

I'm not telling you again to ask for clarification
when you don't understand what I'm talking about but then
I think you prefer people call you names and insult you.

EDIT Thanks for the correction. You restored my faith.
An honest mistake is an honest mistake, appreciate your
short phrase breakdown. I'm trying to be less stuffy but it's hard.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


correction:

Clyde Winters: Romans
alTakruri: Libyan/S. European admixture
Swenet: look more like Egyptians than Romans
xyyman: indigenous African Caucasoid


note what are the objects being held? One looks like an African throwing stick. Another is like a crook or different type of throwing stick

_____________________________________________________




^^^^ this is from Africanrockart.org

what's going on here a white man on an animal spearing a black man?
It's hard to say what it really means. The white colored man is sitting in a too casual position for that but then again the artsistry is very crude or highly stylized.
Is it really a white person or is the color symbolic, body paint a mythological character?
Is the white figure sticking the stick into the darker figure or just laying it across his chest?
Nobody knows
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Folks ..., what ethnic group does the rock art that alTakruri posted look most like?
I don't care. Those two side topics are worn out and not important, let's return to the Genomic Ancestry of North Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Folks ..., what ethnic group does the rock art that alTakruri posted look most like?
I don't care. Those two side topics are worn out and not important, let's return to the Genomic Ancestry of North Africa

---

Sorry. I only posted the 2whiteguys behind the
extermination point brought up by the Explorer.
Also to correlate with Price's date (> 800 BCE)
for white admixture in the pre-Sahara region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Since the troll above (Lioness) quotes her synthesis of my views regarding the depicted figures for a second time, I'd like to point out that the poster above me is lying. I never said the figures look like Egyptians, or more like Egyptians than Romans, but, of course, the more astute readers have already caught on to her lie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
The depicted feather in hair by itself has much more affinity with ancient Egyptian, and, especially, ancient Nubian and Libyan customs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




^^^^ this is from Africanrockart.org

what's going on here a white man on an animal spearing a black man?
It's hard to say what it really means. The white colored man is sitting in a too casual position for that but then again the artsistry is very crude or highly stylized.
Is it really a white person or is the color symbolic, body paint a mythological character?
Is the white figure sticking the stick into the darker figure or just laying it across his chest?
Nobody knows

---

Prehistoric Saharan paintings are known fortheir
superimpositions. Here we find brown stick-head
and white style uncertain. I don't think the
stick head artist and white artist are one and
the same or that both figure types were done in
the same period.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Good info Patrol and of course Africa shows the most variation.
Example: Lateral builds have an advantage in endurance running, and any
task that requires endurance. This is because the larger rib cage allows more room for a larger heart and lungs. The endurance feats that have been recorded for some Indians are legendary.

^^True, but the best endurance runners are linearly
built Africans. While the general pattern of info
below is true, once again, the diversity of tropical Africans
can cover many bases.



And it is unwritten..
That an unknown runner was dispatched,
where the plains meet Marathon,
and Marathon meets the sea...

Rest in peace, Abebe Bikila.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
@Troll Patrol.

Thanks for the link. Casual observation proved this out

1. The predominance of straight hair on a world-wide basis suggests
that it is the original type of hair that the first humans had.

2. If melanin is present in the external layer of the iris then the
eye will be brown. If melanin is lacking, the iris will be colorless but perceived as blue for the same reason that the sky seems blue and a lake seems blue. If melanin is present but unevenly distributed the eye is perceived as a brownish green and is called olive or hazel.

3. Most people in the world have brown eyes

Body size. Heritability estimates for most body size measurements imply that
about 80% of the variability in body size is due to genetic factors (.8 heritiability), and about 20% is due to environmental factors.

A. Sexual dimorphism in body size is typical of humans, with females being
90-95% the size of males in almost all populations.

B. The secular trend. It seems that most of the world's populations are
becoming larger through time. This is part of what is called the secular trend.

Few people think that this is actually a genetic evolutionary trend, and place the cause somewhere in the environment, mostly to diet.
Some biologists have suggested that the secular trend is, in part, the result of selection due to mate choice (called sexual selection).
However, in 1900 I would have served nicely as an 'average' height male in either the US or UK. Now most males are grotesquely taller. In Japan in 1949 the average height of males was not quite 5'4''. Now the average is equal to European males (5'10''). In Pakistan in 1972 the average height of males was just over 5'4'', and is now (for males 18-35) just less than the average for European males. Selection can simply not operate this quickly.
Changes in public sanitation, particularly water supplies may also have an important impact. Most human populations maintain a fairly large disease and parasite load, which compete for the energy produced by the human body. Many of these are transmitted by human waste products which contaminate water, and through water (or lack of it) food.

C. Advantages of large body size. There are some advantages to large body
size.

Big people are stronger.
Bigger people are better predators - a lion can kill a wider variety of prey than a house cat.
Bergman's rule. Large bodies are beneficial in colder climates according to Bergman's rule:
The larger the animal the better it is at retaining heat. That
is why during the glacial times many lineages of animals developed giant forms. Humans follow this rule in a broad way. People living near the poles tend to be larger on the average than those living near the equator, but there are a lot of exceptions. Certainly this is true in the new world where the native americans living in the amazon basin are among the shortest of all native americans.
Larger people are generally faster runners. The fact that their stride length is longer and that they can apply more force with each stride due to larger muscles gives this advantage.

E. Advantages of small body size.

The most important of all selective pressures on body size is that small people require less food and can better survive when food is limited. Famines kill people in size order from largest first to smallest last.
Smaller people are generally quicker and more agile. This is due to the principle of inertia from physics. A larger body takes more force to get moving and more force to change direction than a smaller body does.


F. Distribution of body size.

Europeans have the largest average body size. It is in Europe where Bergman's rule most clearly applies. The largest Europeans are from the far north, and the farther south you go in europe, the smaller the people.
Africans include both the worlds tallest (if not exactly the largest) people and the world's smallest people. The Nuer, Masai, Watusi, and similar peoples of East Central Africa are the world's tallest and among the worlds largest. The Pygmies of West Central Africa and the Khoisan of Southern Africa are among smallest.
Asians and Native Americans usually fall in the middle ranges. Only a few populations could be considered large, maybe the Samoans are one. Many populations could be described as small.

II. Body build. Most of the variation in body build in humans can be reduced
to linear build vs lateral build. Let's contrast an extreme linear build with an extreme lateral build.

A. The extreme linear stereotype would be found in the previously
mentioned tall peoples of East Central Africa. These people are very tall and slender. The chests, shoulders, and hips are very narrow - the narrowest in the world for their height. The limbs are extremely long, especially the legs.

B. The extreme lateral stereotype would be found in some Asian and
Native Americans. Eskimos, Japanese, Samoans, Apache, and many South American Indians exhibit lateral build. A few Caucasoid groups also approach lateral build, especially the peoples of northern Europe. Laterally built people tend to have long and broad trunks, with wider chests, shoulders and hips. The widest hips of all can be found in Europeans. The limb bones tend to be short and the legs make less of a contribution to overall height.

C. Allen's rule. One primary selective force acting on body build
is Allen's rule:

Animals living in colder climates should have shorter appendages
and be more spherical than those living in warmer climates. This says that laterally built people should be found in colder climates and linearly built people in warm climates. This is true for humans on the average. The traditional comparison is between the Inuit and the Masai. The Inuit of the far north tend to be stocky with short arms and legs. The Masai of east africa tend to be very tall and slender, with long arms and legs.

D. These contrasting body builds have definite advantages for
certain tasks. The linear builds seem to have a definite advantage in overall health, especially in that they experience much less heart disease and diabetes than laterally built people. Linear builds have the advantage in running speed - they make great sprinters. The mechanics of long slender legs, as explained in terms of levers and forces, are well designed for fast running. A non-human example is the contrast between cows and antelopes. Cows and antelopes are closely related, but cows are extreme laterals in build and antelopes are more linear. Obviously, antelopes can run faster than cows.

Narrow hips are another advantage in fast running. This is the reason
that most men can run faster than most women. Women have broader hips as an adaptation for childbearing. The muscular arrangements that accompany narrow hips are much more efficient in moving the legs rapidly and powerfully. Since most Europeans have very broad hips you would expect them to be among the world's slowest runners, and this is pretty much what is observed.

E. Lateral builds have an advantage in endurance running, and any
task that requires endurance. This is because the larger rib cage allows more room for a larger heart and lungs. The endurance feats that have been recorded for some Indians are legendary.

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
@ TP, great lead was usual!!. That was my knee jerk reaction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
The current view is that the so called European/Eurasian mtDNA Haplogroup H is actually African.

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With all due respect X, but that paper is old (meaning, I, and I'm assuming others as well, already took that paper into account), and you're just making up stuff.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

The afronut bogus ''female Eurasian slaves'' excuse, when applied to what's CLEARLY prehistoric, non-recent ancestry in Berbers, needs to be called out for the crackpot emotion-driven quackery that it is. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] I also speculated that light skin is inherently human ie African - H. Norton et al, Blue eye also - Wasserman et al.

Straight hair also.

Modern Europeans are delusional to think they have a monopoly on any of these features.

That is why here are no races. All are Africans adapted to live in their respective ecological niche. Note the Andaman Islanders and New Guineans ahir type.

That is why AEians are black skin, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.

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If Africans have light skin then why don't Egyptians who live in a country at a similarly distant latidude from the equator have skin as light as some of the Libyans in the anceint Egyptian art?


top row, Syrian, Nubian, Libyan
bottom row, Egyptian , Syrian
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Please.....

these are artistic impression. getting the REAL thing and I will post. Altk posted it awhile back. So pleae no BS. Get back to the Table I posted.

oh here it is on ESR. THE REAL THING!!!!


 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
As I said. Very few can compete intelligently with me. They just don't have the smarts.

I am out-duelling you in your own forte...pictures.

Point is as seen in the real thing. AEians are black skin. The authentic pics of also show them black/brown skin. As they should be based on their ecological niche.

Want me to find those authentic ancient portrayals of Easterners?


Those portrayals are typical European delusion fantasy. If can't challenge me ....let me know.

I have better things to do.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
We are on the same page on this. But for different reasons. Mine is based upon what I posted above. Note however. There may be some migration of "Modern" European back-flow. But that does not(only) explain the pattern of H1 in NAians.
The paper I posted is positing that (H*ancestral) originated in Africa or the NE/AP.
My second reference states that the Taureg has the highest frequency of downstream H1 compared to Europeans. Note also the H1 is lowest in NE/AP.

shyte- I gave it away!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

The afronut bogus ''female Eurasian slaves'' excuse, when applied to what's CLEARLY prehistoric, non-recent ancestry in Berbers, needs to be called out for the crackpot emotion-driven quackery that it is. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.

---

---

 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
That is why AEians are black skin, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.

^^indeed. THe cooler MEdit climate, the dry desert air-
etc, all these elements cause Africans to vary- from
skin color, to nose shape, to limb proportions, etc. But
also for the new readers to keep in mind is that
tropical Africans have the most phenotypic and
genotypic diversity. They need not rely solely on
environment to vary. Dark skinned, broad nosed Africans can
be found in cool cloud forest or high altitude mountain,
and narrow noses and fair skin can be found in
humid lowland savannah.


 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
That is the problem with genetics and not understanding and keeping up. It takes awhile.

Many studies just reference the "macro-Haplogroup H." This is one of the few that has increased resolution. Think magnifying glass!!! Now when you hear hg-H, think which one.

It is the same technology that proved out the Basque R1b1a2 is YOUNGER than modern Europeans.

It is the same technology that proved out that R-V88 in Guianea Bissua is "older" than those further north thus proving no back-migration per Cruiciani et al.

so, no, the paper is not out dated. The study is very relevant.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
As I said. Very few can compete intelligently with me. They just don't have the smarts.

I am out-duelling you in your own forte...pictures.

Point is as seen in the real thing. AEians are black skin. The authentic pics of also show them black/brown skin. As they should be based on their ecological niche.

Want me to find those authentic ancient portrayals of Easterners?


Those portrayals are typical European delusion fantasy. If can't challenge me ....let me know.

I have better things to do.

---

you tooting your own horn again?

You don't even understand what I was saying.

I put up a picture that included Libyans
You did not put up a picture that included Libyans

Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians

Why?

if they are at the same distance from the equator as Egyptians? at the same level of UV which influences skin tone?
Why would they be lighter ?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
H1, higherst frequencies

Libyan Tuareg 61

Basques (Spain) 27.8

Portugal 25.5

Andalusia 24.3

Pasiegos (Cantabria) 23.5

Tuareg (West Sahel) 23.3

Berbers (Morocco) 20.2
__________________________________________________

Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia
Claudio Ottoni equal contributor,


Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor,


Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,

Alessandro Achilli,

Cristina Martínez-Labarga,

The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1, a mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that is common in all Western European populations. To define how and when H1 spread from Europe to North Africa up to the Central Sahara, in Fezzan, we investigated the complete mitochondrial genomes of eleven Libyan Tuareg belonging to H1. Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago, while phylogenetic analyses reveal three novel H1 branches, termed H1v, H1w and H1x, which appear to be specific for North African populations, but whose frequencies can be extremely different even in relatively close Tuareg villages. Overall, these findings support the scenario of an arrival of haplogroup H1 in North Africa from Iberia at the beginning of the Holocene, as a consequence of the improvement in climate conditions after the Younger Dryas cold snap, followed by in situ formation of local H1 sub-haplogroups. This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.

Introduction Top

In the last few years the story of human migrations has been extensively reconstructed thanks to the contribution of archaeology and genetics, particularly the latter through the study of the two uniparentally transmitted genetic systems: mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome. The study of maternal genealogies appears to indicate that the peopling of the Eurasian continent by modern humans likely began around 60–70 thousand years ago (kya) through the ‘southern coastal route’ from the Horn of Africa via Arabia and South Asia, up to Australasia [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. However, alternative exit scenarios, including a more northern route into the Levant and multiple waves of migration (see Kayser 2010 [6] and Majumder 2010 [7] for a review), have recently regained some momentum after the postulated detection of some Neanderthal nuclear DNA variation in the genomes of modern Eurasians [8]. The ‘southern coastal route’ scenario instead implies that, blocked by deserts, humans could not move from the Arabian Gulf area into the Levant earlier than 50 kya, when climate conditions improved [9]. Entrance into the Levant paved the way to the dispersal of modern humans both north-westward into Europe and south-westward into Northern Africa [10], [11]. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), approximately between 26.5 and 19 kya [12] ice sheets largely covered large portions of North America and Europe. In warmer regions of the world, the climate was cooler and drier and deserts spread over large regions, particularly in Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia [13], [14]. Accordingly, during the LGM, humans concentrated in refugial areas of southwestern Europe, in the Balkans and Levant, and on the east European plains [9], [15], [16]. The subsequent Bølling warming, around 15 kya, triggered re-expansion processes which led to the resettlement of Central and Northern Europe. Genetic signatures of these expansions are evident in mtDNA genealogies, for instance haplogroups H1, H3 and V contributed to the gradual re-peopling of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge in the postglacial [17], [18]. Similarly, though to a lesser extent, H5*(xH5a), H20 and H21 may be associated to a postglacial population expansion phase in the Caucasus area [19]. Although restricted to the Mediterranean coast, an expansion took place also from the Italian peninsula northward, as attested to by the haplogroup U5b3 [20].

Evidence of trans-Mediterranean contacts between Northern Africa and Western Europe has been assessed at the level of different genetic markers (e.g. [21], [22], [23], [24]). With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent [17], [18], [25], but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa [26], [27]. So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.

Within the West-European component in North Africa, H1 is the most represented haplogroup with frequencies ranging from 21% in some Tunisian Berber groups to 1% in Egypt [28]. Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]. Tuareg are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of Northwest Africa, who speak a Berber language. MtDNA analyses performed on the Libyan Tuareg have highlighted their genetic relatedness with some Berber groups and other North African populations, mainly resulting from the sharing of a common West-Eurasian component. A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.

To better define the nature and extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya we have now determined the complete sequence of eleven of their mtDNAs belonging to H1. The comparison of these H1 sequences with those already available from Europe and North Africa provides new clues on how and when H1 spread in Northern Africa up to the Central Sahara.
Methods Top

Earlier mtDNA molecular analyses carried out on the two hypervariable segments (HVS-I and HVS-II) and diagnostic markers in the mtDNA coding region in a sample of 129 Libyan Tuareg from two neighboring villages in Fezzan (Al Awaynat and Tahala) allowed the detection of 79 H1 mtDNAs encompassing 61% of the population sample [29]. Appropriate written informed consent to anonymously use their data was obtained from all individuals. The ethics approval for this study was provided by the Ethical committee of the University of Rome Tor Vergata (DM 12 maggio 2006, Delibera n. 243/2007). The genetic diversity of the Libyan H1 mtDNAs appeared to be extremely low, with 91% of the H1 individuals sharing the same HVS-I/II haplotype (i.e. CRS-263). In the present work, a more detailed molecular characterization of the H1 haplotypes was performed. In particular, eight mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype and three mtDNAs harboring the haplotype 16037-16256-263 (for more detail see Ottoni et al. 2009 [29]) were chosen and submitted to complete sequencing. The sequencing procedure and the phylogeny construction of the complete mtDNAs were performed as described elsewhere [17], [30].

The rho statistic and its standard deviation sigma [31] were calculated for both the entire H1 haplogroup and its internal sub-clades. Maximum Likelihood (ML) estimates were also provided by using PAML 3.13 and considering three partitions on the entire mitochondrial molecule: HVS-I (positions 16051 to 16400), HVS-II (positions 68 to 263) and remainder. The age estimates were then converted to years according to the mutation rates of Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33].

Moreover, once the phylogeny of the H1 Tuareg lineages was reconstructed and its internal clades defined, 50 of the 64 remaining Tuareg H1 mtDNAs harboring the CRS-263 haplotype were surveyed for the diagnostic mutations of the novel branches, thus allowing their sub-classification. The remaining 14 mtDNAs were not screened for sub-clade markers due to lack of DNA.

In detail, PCR amplification and sequencing of four fragments was carried out in order to investigate the status at nucleotide positions (nps) 4313 (L4180-AACTTCCTACCACTCACC, H4621-TGGCAGCTTCTGTGGAAC), 9148 (L9003-CCTAACCGCTAACATTAC, H9280-CTAGGCCGGAGGTCATTA), 14560 (L14398-AACACTCACCAAGACCTCAACC, H14832-AGTGAGCCGAAGTTTCATCATG) and 8966 (L8908-TTCTTACCACAAGGCACACC, H9014-TAGGTGGCCTGCAGTAATGT), which respectively mark H1v1, H1v1a, H1v1b and H1w.

The geographic representation of H1 haplogroup frequencies was obtained using Surfer 6 (http://www.goldensoftware.com) with the Kriging procedure. Frequency estimates at each grid node were inferred by considering the entire data set. The extent of H1 variation in North Africa was evaluated from available HVS-I data (nps 16024–16365) with the software Arlequin version 3.1 [34].
Results Top

The most parsimonious tree encompassing eleven complete H1 mtDNAs from the Tuareg together with four previously published sequences from Tunisia [35], one Berber from Egypt [17] and two Jewish Moroccans [36] is illustrated in Figure 1. All Tuareg sequences clustered into three clades that had not been previously reported and thus were termed H1v, H1w and H1x. Five sequences grouped into the sub-clade H1v1 defined by the transition at np 4313. One Tunisian sequence (# 8) did not cluster into H1v1 but was closely related, since it harbored the mutation at 10314 that defines the clade H1v (Figure 1). The sub-clade H1v1 splits into two branches defined by the transitions at np 9148 (clade H1v1a) and 14560 (clade H1v1b). Three Tuareg mtDNAs formed the novel clade H1w that is defined by the transition at np 8966, while the last three Tuareg mtDNAs, apart from the HVS-I transitions at 16037 and 16256, were found to harbor mutations at nps 7765 and 10410 in the coding region (clade H1x). The Tuareg complete mtDNAs have been deposited in GenBank, under the accession numbers reported in Table S1.
thumbnail

Figure 1. Most parsimonious tree of complete H1 mtDNA sequences from North Africa.

The tree includes 18 complete mtDNA sequences and illustrates sub-haplogroup affiliations, including the novel sub-haplogroups H1v, H1w and H1x. Eleven sequences are from the Tuareg of Libya and seven were previously published: four Tunisians, two Moroccan Jews, and one Berber from Egypt (Table S1 and the supplementary References S1). The position of the revised Cambridge reference sequence (rCRS) [47] is indicated for reading off sequence motifs. Tuareg mtDNAs were selected through a preliminary sequence analysis of the control region and an RFLP survey in order to include the widest possible range of internal variation of haplogroup H1. The sequencing procedure and phylogeny construction were performed as described elsewhere [17], [30]. Mutations are shown on the branches; they are transitions unless a base is explicitly indicated. The prefix @ designates reversions, while suffixes indicate: transversions (to A, G, C, or T), indels (+, d), gene locus (~t, tRNA; ~r, rRNA; ~nc, non coding region outside of the mtDNA control region), and synonymous or non-synonymous changes (s or ns). Recurrent mutations are underlined. The root of H1o has been defined according to Behar et al. [36]. Additional information regarding each mtDNA is available on Table S1 and on the supplementary References S1. MtDNAs # 1 and 2 are from Moroccan Jews [36], # 3–7 and 9–14 are from Libyan Tuareg, # 8 and 15–17 are from Tunisian subjects [35], and # 18 is from a Berber of Egypt [17].
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0013378.g001

Divergence values (rho statistics and ML estimates) and the age in years of the most recent common ancestor of the main clusters are reported in Table 1, according to the evolutionary rate estimates described in Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33]. The two evolutionary rates provide a coalescence time of about 8–9 kya for the whole H1 haplogroup in North Africa. As expected, the North African-specific clades are characterized by younger ages ranging from about 3.8 to 6.7 kya for H1v, and from 2.1 to 7.9 kya for H1v1. The youngest clades were found to be H1w and H1x, with an age of about 0.8–1.1 kya.
thumbnail

Table 1. Age estimates of relevant nodes in the North African H1 phylogeny illustrated in Figure 1.
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0013378.t001

The survey of diagnostic markers 4313, 8966, 9148 and 14560 in 50 individuals characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype showed that all of these clustered within the two novel sub-clades H1v1 and H1w identified by initial sequencing of the eight entire mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 control-region motif. Overall the 64 Libyan Tuareg mtDNAs belonging to H1 (Table S2) were mostly distributed between the clades H1v1 (38%) and H1w (53%), with a minor component (9%) belonging instead to clade H1x. Within H1v1, half of the Libyan Tuareg (i.e. 12 individuals, equal to 50%) were characterized by the transition at np 9148 (sub-clade H1v1a) and half by the transition at np 14560 (sub-clade H1v1b). It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades. Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.

An up-to-date map of the H1 spatial distribution in Africa and West Eurasia is illustrated in Figure 2. Frequency data and other details of the populations from the literature included in this survey are reported in Table S3 and in the supplementary References S1. There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and Tunisia became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples, HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).


 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Last post on the topic for now...work to do on ESR.

Again. Look at the data on the table. ANCESTRAL MtDNA hg-H is highest in two regions. ie Tunisia and NE/AP. NOT Europe. H1 is high in Tunisia/Libya and Europe NOT NE/AP. The other hg-H sub-clades are recent migrants from the NE.

This correlates with Henn et al but Henn uses SNPs.

Central North Africa holds the two OLDEST clades of hg-H. not Europe and not NE/AP. Laws of Mathematics, you know.. high school geometry, intersections, etc. Swenet thinks back-migration Not slaves. I proved point of origin NOT slaves.

GET IT!!!

That explains the high frequency of hg-H in North Africa(not white female slaves). They make that clear in the body of paper but not the conclusion.

Their point - North Africa habors different types of hg-H. Some old and the others new. Their object in the study was to prove that the Strait of Gib was a barrier. They are trying to understand why there are female European genes in NA and NOT the corresponding male R-M269

That is why they use high resolution to discriminate the sub-clades of hg-H. And they succeeded in proving that.


This is very simple - but you have to understand what tools these researchers are using, what they are trying to prove, their source population, their resolution etc.

I know pictures are easier to understand!!!!


Remember the R-V88 thing in central Africa.

1st - they were confused.
2nd - they said back migration, albeit no female lineage.
3rd - now with better technology they confirmed it is older AND diffused south TO north.


As for the pics - my point, again, authentic rendition of the Herd of Ra shows AEians extremely dark. Go to that latitude UV -skin pigmentation map. Lower Egyptians may be lighter than upper Egyptians. Similarly indigenous Southern Arabians and Southern Persians are as dark....and some Libyans...no admixture needed.

BYE!!!
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
How did Henn's ~280 K SNP genome comparison
missout on all Tunisian SSA components when
deep ancestry uniparentals reveal significant SSA
contributions as in Cherni 2009 and Ennafaa 2011,
neither of whom are among Henn's references?

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Simple. Sample bias. Carefully chosen (or ignored) samples can show you anything you want or don't want. It can lead to false results and analysis.

For example, ignore Anglo-Saxons samples in the USA and it's almost like they never existed.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397.s011

This is a table of all the populations they used in the study (very limited):

Table S1:
Details of the dataset used in the present study.

Population Sample Size Country Reference
Morocco - North 18 Morocco Present study
Morocco - South 16 Morocco Present study
Saharawi 18 Western Sahara Present study
Algerian 19 Algeria Present study
Tunisian 18 Tunisia Present study
Libyan 17 Libya Present study
Egyptian 19 Egypt Present study
Basques 20 Spain Present study
Tuscans 26 Italy HapMap3
Qatari 30 Qatar Hunter-Zinck et al. 2010
Yoruba 26 Nigeria HapMap3
Hausa 12 Nigeria Bryc et al. 2010
Bulala 15 Nigeria Bryc et al. 2010
Fulani 12 Nigeria Bryc et al. 2010
Luhya 25 Kenya HapMap3
Maasai 30 Kenya HapMap3

They pick 30 person (not random at all) in a country and label them representative of the whole country.

IMO, those type of statistical studies should involve much more people spread across the whole region under study to be truly representative of the region. Not just a couples of hand picked samples very limited in their spread and diversity.

This study doesn't give the population structure of the whole region under study. Just the population structure of this very limited sample set. Like tracing the origin of Americans in Italy after sampling only population in the Italian neighborhoods in America. With this study you could also discover that Americans from the east cost are in fact only 5% Anglo-saxons and those from the west coast are 17% Anglo-saxons (aka 2 different Italian neighborhoods with various degree of admixture with Anglo-saxons Americans). Ridiculous.
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..





Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos



26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
YOU intepret the data(Table) and get back to me.

---

I know you like the fancy illustrations and colors in Ottoni et al, 2010's figs and tables, but there is more to the issue of H1 and H3 in North Africa than just crude hap freqs.

Men lie, women lie, numbers don't:

Iberian H1 and H3:

As expected, when only mtDNAs belonging to H1 and
H3 were included, younger coalescence times were obtained.
They were 12.8  2.4 kya for H1, and 10.3 
2.4 kya for H3. These coalescence ages are very similar,
and they become even more similar (10.8  1.1 kya
and 11.0  1.4 kya, respectively) when the estimates
are obtained by inclusion of previously published H1
and H3 sequences (table 2).
--Achilli et al, 2004

Berber H1 and H3:

This scenario is further supported by the
overall age of haplogroup H1 in North Africa.
Using the evolution rates recently proposed by
Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33],
haplogroup H1 shows a coalescence time of
approximately 8–9 ky (Table 1), in agreement
with the hypothesis of an early arrival and
radiation of H1 in the African continent in the
first half of the Holocene, as a consequence of
the postglacial expansion from the Iberian
Peninsula.
--Ottoni et al, 2010

So, let me get this right. Berber H1 and H3, which split from Iberian H1 and H3 ~9-8kya, were brought to Iberia from North Africa when Berbers didn't even have it ~11kya nor existed as an ancestral unit?


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..





Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians

---

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

---

Libyan Dynasty 22-23rd dynasty, of descent 24th
founded by Shoshenq I

The Twenty-sixth Dynasty of Egypt (also written Dynasty XXVI or Dynasty 26) was the last native dynasty to rule Egypt before the Persian conquest in 525 BC

Psamtik I (also spelled Psammeticus or Psammetichus, in Greek: Ψαμμήτιχος), was the first of three kings of that name of the Saite, or Twenty-sixth dynasty of Egypt. Psamtik I campaigned vigorously against those local princes who opposed his reunification of Egypt. One of his victories over certain Libyan marauders is mentioned in a Year 10 and Year 11 stela from the Dakhla Oasis.
The idea Psamtik was of Libyan descent himself is speculation. If he was Libyan was he pure Libyan of was he 50% Libyan or was he 25% ?

Psamtik I is 25th dynasty and depictions of him are in Egypytian style. That is a weak argument for representation of Libyans.
My images go back to the 20th dynasty and they are in their proper Libyan garb with side lock.
I already stated in this thread that some Libyans are portrayed in Eygptian art as reddish brown skin others yellowish or paler.
Stop the emotional reactions.
The point here is that there are numerous pieces of Egyptian art where they portray some Libyans as significantly lighter skinned than they are. If they are peoples of the same distance form the equator why is that?
Is it because some Libyans had some out of Africa ancestry ?
That is the issue, not that you can find different paintings

But all people can think is she's making a statement that all Libyans were light skinned.


Same type of thing with the talk of samples, because people think the sample sizes of some study are too small or not focused in a particular area they dismiss the entire study instead of recognizing that these early back to Africa migrations occured in some parts of North Africa.




^^^^ LIbyan captives to make everybody happy

let's not rehash
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Thanks Jari. I am done with Lioness and their selective pictures.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ Swenet - Agreed . There is more to Haplo-group than frequency. So we got that out of the way. So it seems like you agree that North Africans have a higher frequency of some H Clades than Europeans? Let's move one.

Where we part ways is the coalesence age. That is where BS is at play. Fact is North Africans have a MUCH Higher Frequency of H* than Europeans. If you are thinking man, the conundrum is ...why AP/NE has such a high frequency of H* and H-subclades and NOT H1(European).

Since you are moving in the right direction but can't get past the coalescence age....


Coalescene age etc is all speculation...remember AMH left Africa 40-100K ya!!!!....depending on who wrote the paper. There are FACTS and there is story telling. Frequency is a FACT. Resolution is a FACT. Coalescence....

To be continued. We will discussion coalescence age next....busy


Quote:

However, any statements concerning the geographic origin of this or any other haplogroup are highly speculative and considered by most population geneticists to be 'story telling' and outside the domain of science. Furthermore, inferring close associations between a haplogroup and a specific archaeological culture can be equally problematic.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^You're reaching n bending outta shape trying to apologize for the uniparental Africanity of your precious Berbers. You're stooping to the low of baselessly criticizing well received peer reviewed research, when you yourself have zero credentials, arguments or anything other than what seems to be emotion driven yelps with zero substance.

Leaving aside your comments on the coalescence ages of H1 and H3 (that its just speculation) aside for a minute, even your interpretation of what the high frequencies of the aforementioned uniparentals in Berber speakers mean aren't supported by anything substantial either. Yeah, they're higher than in Iberia, but so what? Entertaining the idea that the implicated Maghrebi and Iberian H clades weren't inflated and deflated, respectively, by drift, who says that current Iberian H1 and H3 levels are perfect replicas of the Iberian Hunter Gatherers who they inherited H1 and H3 from, and that the freqs of these mtDNAs weren't affected by later Farmer and Bronze age populations?

On another note, the apparel in some of Jari's pics seems to have affinity with certain Libyans and the Mentuhotep's assimilation of the Oases into the Egyptian economy no later than the Middle Kingdom may suggest that Old Kingdom Oases dwellers were either politically allied to some other entity (Libyans perhaps?) or that they were their own entity.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
xyyman is being simplistic. he thinks highest frequency = origin when it is merely due to the isolation of one of the groups in the distribution

_____________________________________


Ottoni:

Divergence values (rho statistics and ML estimates) and the age in years of the most recent common ancestor of the main clusters are reported in Table 1, according to the evolutionary rate estimates described in Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33]. The two evolutionary rates provide a coalescence time of about 8–9 kya for the whole H1 haplogroup in North Africa.

the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
xxyman, the Kabyles are the largest Berber language speaking group

genetics as follows


Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[12]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[13] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.

MtDNA Haplogroups, by contrast, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies: H (32.23%), U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).

__________________________________________________


based on this genetic profile would you say they are primarily Afican or non-African in origin ? (unless you're scared)


E-M81 is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its subclade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.[2][25] This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[25][26][27] Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker". Pereira et al. 2010 report high levels amongst Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina


alTakruri, this might mean the Kabyles are primarily African and dana is not going to like this

xyyman, dana takes the "afrocentric" position that the lighter skinned Kabyles, the largest berber speaking group are not real berbers, they are fake and derived primarily from European slaves.

However they do have significant H also although xyyman says that's African also
.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
And "I" am reaching...I sense a backpadeling coming on...to be continued.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
^.

high frequencies of the aforementioned uniparentals in Berber speakers mean aren't supported by anything substantial ****either.**** YEAH, they're higher than in Iberia, ****but so what? ****

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
BTW - where is your precious MALE Iberian migrants? Notice R-V88 is also OLDER than R-M269. Same as the H*(NA) is older than H1(Ib). In case you missed it. Their is a trend here.

You will get it eventualy

@ Lioness - I have never seen a modern Berber. No idea what one looks like. I only look at the data.

Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.

Finally . ..we got that out of the way...to be continued


Ravens/Broncos game is a show stopper. Colin should be on fire tonight.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[

Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.

---

where is your source on what you call older hg-H and the presence of it in NA?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Half time!!


Note:
1 - Tunisia is very light(no admixture needed)
2. - Libya is 50/50
3. - Egypt is 75(dark)/25
4. - NE same as Africa
5. - Persia similar to Arabia/NE

Ottoman Turks are not indigenous to Africa, Africa and Arabia. Note skin tone of Turks.

This is a freebie.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.



Mediterranean Sea detail from above map


xyyman what's this point your are trying to make about Turks? How does this relate to the discussion? The maps shows Turks and Tunisians/N.Algerians of the same skin tone (also South East China)

Turks from Istanbul: (last photo Tuniasn berber)






Tunisan Berber

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Sighhhh!! Read the article Lioness. There is difference between H and H*. H* in this study is upstream, meaning older. H1 is downstream.

H is the entire haplo-group. That is why it is important to read the Material and Method section of these papers. Also trying to understand the nomenclature. eg ISOGG.

My point of the skin map is to show the anticipated color of indigenous Tunisians. They are expected to be lighter than southern Berbers.,,,no admixture needed. Similar to the people in the Atlas mountains. Sergi comes to mind. He was on point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[

Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.

---

where is your source on what you call older hg-H and the presence of it in NA?

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
As I said I have never seen a Berber so I am going by ONLY scientific data. (lady justice).

So please...I am not sure who these people are you are posting pictures of.
These days anyone can claim to be anything eg YOU are a Black African
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
And "I" am reaching...I sense a backpadeling coming on...to be continued.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
^.

high frequencies of the aforementioned uniparentals in Berber speakers mean aren't supported by anything substantial ****either.**** YEAH, they're higher than in Iberia, ****but so what? ****

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Sighhhh!! Read the article Lioness. There is difference between H and H*. H* in this study is upstream, meaning older. H1 is downstream.

H is the entire haplo-group. That is why it is important to read the Material and Method section of these papers. Also trying to understand the nomenclature. eg ISOGG.

My point of the skin map is to show the anticipated color of indigenous Tunisians. They are expected to be lighter than southern Berbers.,,,no admixture needed. Similar to the people in the Atlas mountains. Sergi comes to mind. He was on point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[

Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.

---

where is your source on what you call older hg-H and the presence of it in NA?

---

---

wake up

H*

Tun = 48

NE =51

_____________________

Tun = Tunsian

NE = Near East



you played yourself
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.familytreedna.com/haplogroup-h-subclades.aspx

Haplogroup H Descriptions

H - Mitochondrial haplogroup H is a predominantly European haplogroup that participated in a population expansion beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. Today, about 40% of all mitochondrial lineages in Europe are classified as haplogroup H. It is rather uniformly distributed throughout Europe suggesting a major role in the peopling of Europe, and descendant lineages of the original haplogroup H appear in the Near East as a result of migration. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.

H* - A Haplogroup assignment of H* indicates that you belong to Haplogroup H, but not to any of the subclades you were tested for and that were known at the time that the test was performed. Since new subclades will continue to be discovered, it is unreasonable and expensive to test for each of the additional subclades after each publication. The best way to resolve a sample that is haplogroup H* is through testing the full mtDNA sequence. This test would provide us with all of the mutations in a person’s mtDNA, which means that that person would never need to do any additional mtDNA testing. Even if they are still H* after the full sequence test, their results can be immediately used to attempt to identify a subclade when new subclades are published.

H1 – H1 is the most common branch of haplogroup H. It represents 30% of people in haplogroup H, and 46% of the maternal lineages in Iberia. 13-14% of all Europeans belong to this branch, and H1 is about 13,000 years old.

H1a – H1a is a branch of H1. Further research will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.


etc.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Sighh!!! Math is tough....

Did you read the article??

IB, H*=18% H=44%. Does that make sense? They are using their own nomenclature, similar to ISOGG.

Stick to posting pictures.

The HG designation is far from being standardize. ISOGG is attempting to do that. I thought the four(LP) of you would figure that.

Remember E3b which is now E1b1b? R1b is now R1b1a2*. * = upstream or undifferentaited. Sometimes * can mean the macro-haplo group. That is why you read the Material and Methods to try to understand which naming system they are using....


I give up......
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
here's xyyman's article that he's trouble understanding:

Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/8

Subhaplogroups H1 and H3 are the dominant subgroups in the Iberian Peninsula (45% and 16%, respectively) and North Africa (42% and 13%, respectively) whereas unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East. Furthermore, while H1 (12%) is still the most frequent subgroup, followed by the H5 (8%) in the Near East, the modal subclades in the Arabian Peninsula are H2a1a (18%) and H6b (14%).
The relative proximity of the Iberian Peninsula to the westernmost North African populations is graphically reflected in Figure 1a. It is evident that Tunisians and Berbers are closest to the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula. A principal component analysis (PCA) points to subhaplogroups H1 and H3 as being primarily responsible for the Iberian-Moroccan-Saharan connection, whereas H4, H5, H7, H8 and H11 testify the Near East influence (data not shown). Similarly, haplotypic based FST distances show a strong influence of the Iberian Peninsula on the Western Moroccan and Saharan North African populations, and indicate that Tunisians are comparatively the most remarkably influenced by the Near East (Table 2 and Figure 1b).
The relative proximity of the Iberian Peninsula to the westernmost North African populations is graphically reflected in Figure 1a. It is evident that Tunisians and Berbers are closest to the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula. A principal component analysis (PCA) points to subhaplogroups H1 and H3 as being primarily responsible for the Iberian-Moroccan-Saharan connection, whereas H4, H5, H7, H8 and H11 testify the Near East influence (data not shown). Similarly, haplotypic based FST distances show a strong influence of the Iberian Peninsula on the Western Moroccan and Saharan North African populations, and indicate that Tunisians are comparatively the most remarkably influenced by the Near East (Table 2 and Figure 1b). Globally, North Africa shares a similar number of haplotypes with the Iberian Peninsula compared with the Near East (Table 3). However, a detailed analysis of the ratios between haplotypic identities relating each North African population with the Iberian Peninsula or the Near East confirms that the Western populations, comprising Moroccan Arabs, Saharans and Mauritanians, are the most notably influenced by the Iberian Peninsula, whereas the Tunisian Berbers, Tunisians, and the Moroccan Berbers have received relatively more gene flow from the Near East (Table 3). At this point, it is noteworthy that all the Arabian Peninsula haplotypes shared with North Africa are a subset of those shared by the latter with the Near East, pointing to a minor direct input of the Arabian Peninsula on the North African populations. Haplogroup (Table 1) and haplotype (Table 3) genetic diversities demonstrate that the Northwestern African populations (Moroccan Arabs and Saharans) are genetically less diverse than the more central Tunisian and Berbers, a fact that could be explained by a stronger Near East influence on the later populations. Although global haplogroup and haplotypic diversities are not statistically different among regions (Table 1 and 3), the European subgroup H1 appears to be significantly more diverse in the Near East (87 ± 5) than in the Iberian Peninsula (75 ± 3) or North Africa (67 ± 6). Moreover, the genetic diversity for the Western European subgroup H3, which is absent in the Near East, is also higher in North Africa (74 ± 9) than in the Iberian Peninsula (65 ± 6). Transformation of molecular genetic diversities in coalescence ages gives 18,345 ± 4,051, 14,201 ± 2,984, and 11,366 ± 2,354 years for H1 in the Near East, Iberian Peninsula and North Africa, respectively. On the other hand, the coalescence ages for H3 in the Iberian Peninsula (10,342 ± 2,634) and North Africa (10,866 ± 4,107) are similar. However, only H1 ages in Near East and North Africa are statistically different from each other.

______________________________
^^math
the more one reads your materials the more wrong you look

As described previously, total frequencies for the haplogroup H decline toward both the East and the South (Table 1). The haplogroup H represents 44% of the mtDNA variation in the Iberian Peninsula, but only 22% in the Near East. Likewise, this distribution still reaches 25% in North Africa, but drops to only 9% in the Arabian Peninsula....

Furthermore, while H1 (12%) is still the most frequent subgroup, followed by the H5 (8%) in the Near East, the modal subclades in the Arabian Peninsula are H2a1a (18%) and H6b (14%). P


 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Quote:

-----Subhaplogroups H1 and H3 are the dominant subgroups in the Iberian Peninsula (45% and 16%, respectively) and North Africa (42% and 13%, respectively) whereas unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East.-----

Unclassifed means undifferentiated ie upstream. Your penance is...read it 500 times and get back to me....my Catholic upbringing.

H* is a sub-group of H just as H1 and H3 etc. It is "unclassified" because it is at the top/not mutated (see table) ie upstream.

Maybe you are really ONE person. Don't believe four of you can't get it. Can't simplify any further

Call me back in a few years...

BTW - For the bolded quotes- That is why they are suggesting that macro-group H originated in the Near East(not Europe). But H* is only a few percentage point more than central NA while the first mutation, H1, is virtualy absent in NE but high in both central NA and Iberia. This pattern suggest that NA is where Macro-group originated...especially looking at the frequency of the MUCH younger H-sub-clades. They try to BS their way through this issue by playing the Swenet's coalescene game.

Notice - H%(row) for NE/IP is 22/9 but for IB is 44. That is the percentage of ALL mtDNA Haplogroups. However of the H's, H* (unclassified/old) is 51% but H1 (first subgroup) is 12%. Infact all of the later sub-clades in NE has a lower frequency.(yes I trust 'frequency' - call me old fashion)

Tunisia on the otherhand has 48% H*. BUT has a higher frequency of the intermediate sub-clades.

Bottom line is- they are saying that the genes are diffusing from NE and IB to Central N Africa. The data shows the opposite, the Tunisian genes are diffusing towards NE and IB. They want to ignore the pattern/data therefore are using the coalescene fudge calculation. We will talk coalescene in the future once you get pass this .
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
This Africanist is 5 steps ahead of you. Ha! Ha!
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Something interesting in Ennafaa 2009 points
to a possibility of indigenous H subclades

quote:

---

... a high female permeability has been deduced
from several mitochondrial studies that pointed
to the existence of an important maternal Iberian
input on North Africa [15,19]. Although there is no
archaeological evidence to justify such a demic
flow from Iberia to North Africa, based on the
phylogeographic range, comparative gene diversity
and ages of several mitochondrial haplogroups such
as V, H1, H3, and U5b1b [25,37,26], the presence of
these haplogroups in North Africa is thought to be
the result of a southward expansion of Palaeolithic
hunter-gatherers from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge
after the Last Glacial Maximum. In fact, coalescence
ages for H1 and H3 subclades estimated in this study
are in good agreement with those previously published
and are congruent with these expansions.

---

quote:

---

Coalescence ages for H1 (11 ± 2 ky) and H3 (11 ± 4 ky)
in North Africa point to the possibility of a late
Palaeolithic settlement for these lineages similar
to those found for other mtDNA haplogroups.
. . .
Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes
based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled
additional mtDNA differences between North African
and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older
mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously
thought.

---

code:

---

_________ H1 ____________________________ H3
_________ freq diversity coalescence ____ freq diversity coalescence
NAfrica__ 42%_ 67 ± 6 __ 11,366 ± 2,354__ 13%_ 74 ± 9___ 10,866 ± 4,107
Iberia___ 45%_ 75 ± 3 __ 14,201 ± 2,984__ 16%_ 65 ± 6___ 10,342 ± 2,634

---

Yet 76% of North African H lineages are unique.

If women were the potters cardial pottery seems
an archaeolocical indicator for Neolithic Iberian
phenotype females setting up shop immediately
across the opposite strait.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Ann Hum Genet. 2004 May;68(Pt 3):222-33.

Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.


Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Plaza S, Calafell F, Ben Amor M, Comas D, Bennamar El gaaied A.
Source
Laboratoire de Génétique Moléculaire, Immunologie et Biotechnologie, Faculté des Sciences de Tunis, Université Tunis El Manar, 2092 Tunis, Tunisia.

Abstract
Berbers live in groups scattered across North Africa whose origins and genetic relationships with their neighbours are not well established. The first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region was sequenced in a total of 155 individuals from three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in North Africa. Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the Chenini-Douiret) are outliers within the North African genetic landscape. This outlier position is consistent with an isolation process followed by genetic drift in haplotype frequencies, and with the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to Arab samples as shown in the AMOVA. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the Arabization was mainly a cultural process rather than a demographic replacement.

_______________________________________________

Genetic structure of Tunisian ethnic groups revealed by paternal lineages

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.

Tunisia has experienced a variety of human migrations that have modeled the myriad cultural groups inhabiting the area. Both Arabic and Berber-speaking populations live in Tunisia. Berbers are commonly considered as in situ descendants of peoples who settled roughly in Palaeolithic times, and posterior demographic events such as the arrival of the Neolithic, the Arab migrations, and the expulsion of the “Moors” from Spain, had a strong cultural influence. Nonetheless, the genetic structure and the population relationships of the ethnic groups living in Tunisia have been poorly assessed. In order to gain insight into the paternal genetic landscape and population structure, more than 40 Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms and 17 short tandem repeats were analyzed in five Tunisian ethnic groups (three Berber-speaking isolates, one Andalusian, and one Cosmopolitan Arab). The most common lineage was the North African haplogroup E-M81 (71%), being fixed in two Berber samples (Chenini–Douiret and Jradou), suggesting isolation and genetic drift. Differential levels of paternal gene flow from the Near East were detected in the Tunisian samples (J-M267 lineage over 30%); however, no major sub-Saharan African or European influence was found. This result contrasts with the high amount of sub-Saharan and Eurasian maternal lineages previously described in Tunisia. Overall, our results reveal a certain genetic inter-population diversity, especially among Berber groups, and sexual asymmetry, paternal lineages being mostly of autochthonous origin. In addition, Andalusians, who are supposed to be migrants from southern Spain, do not exhibit any substantial contribution of European lineages, suggesting a North African origin for this ethnic group.

_____________________________________________
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] I also speculated that light skin is inherently human ie African - H. Norton et al, Blue eye also - Wasserman et al.

Straight hair also.

Modern Europeans are delusional to think they have a monopoly on any of these features.

That is why here are no races. All are Africans adapted to live in their respective ecological niche. Note the Andaman Islanders and New Guineans ahir type.

That is why AEians are black skin, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.

---

If Africans have light skin then why don't Egyptians who live in a country at a similarly distant latidude from the equator have skin as light as some of the Libyans in the anceint Egyptian art?


top row, Syrian, Nubian, Libyan
bottom row, Egyptian , Syrian

---

 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
To those that can follow the discussion.

The authors are using frequency to suggest that H originated in the NE/AP(Upstream H*51%). Ignoring the also large 48% H* in central North Africa. In addition, they use frequency to suggest that H1(the first mutation ) originated in Iberia again ignoring the high percentage of H1 in Central North Africa., There is a reason why BOTH oldest branch of H (ie H* and H1), combined, is higher in Central North Africa and NOT in either the NE/AP or Iberia. Ignore that coalescence calculation BS.

Coalescence calculation is very subjective and very inaccurate. Coalescence age is based upon several different ASSUMPTIONS. That is why, depending on the author, you read AMH left Africa 40,000-125,000ya. That is a 85,000y difference. I don't know about you but 85,000y margin of inaccuracy is NOT very reliable ie story telling .

The only scientific reliable parameters, so far are, Frequency, and, Resolution(degree of variation). Frequency, is why they first concluded that Basque were the earliest Europeans which modern Europeans descended from. Resolution(new technology), changed their mind, Basque are in fact YOUNGER than modern Europeans. However, they occupied Iberia AHEAD of modern Europeanst!!! Ain't that a bitch! Migration pattern is really fascinating and good story telling. Similarly for Cruiciani and R-V88 thing. Resolution(think magnifying glass) determined that R-V88 is older in central Africa than North Africa. Thus leading the authors to conclude R-V88 is central African in origin and is NOT due to back-migration. Which Clyde and I alluded to years ago. We finally have the proof. Don't be surprise if others try to use coalescene age to prove otherwise in the future. Resolution helped determine the many sub-clades of R1b. This is why ISOGG is always updating. European R1b1b(7ya) is now R1b1a2a*. *= there are many more down-stream clades.


To Sage's Point. Keep in mind - Haplo-group does not mean race. Because there is no such thing. They are not really related. So I respectfully disagree with Dana - Tunisians look how they look due to their geographical location(higher UV latitude and being Saharan) - that is how nature best created them to survive, no admixture needed. Notice they are NOT Scandinavians. Now, since they inhabit the African continent and are indigenous they will show up in CODIS(STR) as African, just as all other Africans(paper cited) It all makes sense. But we try to apply our own modern prejudices to these people. They are African even if we eyeball them as European looking. The genes don't lie. So you see, what is under the skin/genes/(STR) is more important.

The Henn et al DATA correlates with Comas et al DATA. There is some BS in both but overall they agree. What some here are not getting is the objective of these research, which I cited and bolded earlier. Bottom line is they are trying to prove there are African speciifc hg-H sub-clades and European specific hg-H sub-clades and that their White European women did not migrate to Africa leaving their white men behind. You know , in search of black dick. LOL! Man! Modern day politics and prejudices are driving our research!

This is the first paper I have seen that compares mtDNA H and its SUBCLADES over the THREE continents. If anyone have similar papers please post?
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
How do they contradict each other? Which specific authors of the papers under discussion engage in sampling bias? Of what issues, exactly, can it be said that the truths geneticists' sought to uncover, haven't been uncovered?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
How do they contradict each other? Which specific authors of the papers under discussion engage in sampling bias? Of what issues, exactly, can it be said that the truths geneticists' sought to uncover, haven't been uncovered?

---

I already posted an example of sample bias and study contradictions in this thread (actually it was alTakruri who did).

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008327;p=4#000179

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008327;p=2#000078

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
If you bow out you do us all the disfavor of a less
rounded thread. Don't worry about winning or losing a
debate. Thorough discussion must include all angles
and every rational possibility. Pointing out myopia
is also very necessary as it is just another form of
bias. We need a factual presentation of African studies.

That said, as long as there are valid sources, even 180°
interpretations both hold weight. Hypotheses are just that
until completely disconfirmed. No one's going to convince
anybody they're wrong but the worldwide ES readership
deserves every interpretation existing or newly analysed.

I can understand avoiding repetition because its weak and
only impresses last worders. But surely there's room for
expansion and precision from everybody on every proposition.

I, for one, relish hardnose critique. Without it how
shall I see what I overlooked or never knew about so
couldn't analyse to incorporate into my interpretations?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] To those that can follow the discussion.

The authors are using frequency to suggest that H originated in the NE/AP(Upstream H*51%). Ignoring the also large 48% H* in central North Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
If you bow out you do us all the disfavor of a less
rounded thread. Don't worry about winning or losing a
debate. Thorough discussion must include all angles
and every rational possibility. Pointing out myopia
is also very necessary as it is just another form of
bias. We need a factual presentation of African studies
not a reactionary reverse colonialist "Africa uber alles"
Weltanschauung.

That said, as long as there are valid sources, even 180°
interpretations both hold weight. Hypotheses are just that
until completely disconfirmed. No one's going to convince
anybody they're wrong but the worldwide ES readership
deserves every interpretation existing or newly analysed.

I can understand avoiding repetition because its weak and
only impresses last worders. But surely there's room for
expansion and precision from everybody on every proposition.

I, for one, relish hardnose critique. Without it how
shall I see what I overlooked or never knew about so
couldn't analyse to incorporate into my interpretations?


All of us who are willing to learn learn from each other.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

I am not Eurocentric I just think North Africa has been somewhat mixed with Levantine/Med popualtions or intermediate with those populations for a few to several thousands of years...

---

Tell us something we don't already know. Coastal North Africa was colonized by the Phoenicians during the Iron Age and then Greeks, Romans, and then came the Arab-Islamic invasion, after which came the Ottoman Turkish Empire, then European Vandals etc. etc.

That still does not change the fact that the ABORIGINAL populace i.e. indigenous peoples were BLACK Africans. End of story.
 

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Posted by Ponsford (Member # 20191) on :
 
"SubSaharan Africans has been identified as the part of the world with the greatest genetic diversity.This high levl of diversity causes difficulties for genome-wide association studies[GWA]studies in African populations-for example,by reducing the accuracy o genotype imputation in African populations compared to non-African populations".[Lucy Huang etal 2011]
Question:Did Henn etal avoid this pitfall in this study of North African Ancestry?What Huang etal is saying is that the high diversity and low Linkage Disequilibrium in African populations must influence the design of GWA studies.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia

Antonio Torroni5 , Alessandro Achilli et al

Excerpt



There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and [u]Tunisia [/u]became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples (****AND IBERIAN!!!!****), HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).


Indeed, Moroccans and TUNISIANS, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices{/b]. Thus, the coastal areas of northwestern Africa, after the arrival of the Iberian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of North Africa.


NOOOO!!! – conversely !!! Thus, the coastal areas of Europe, after the arrival of the Tunisian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of Europe


=======================================

Someone talk me off the ledge. For those who can follow. Sage, Swenet, others. A- Ra Ultimate give it a shot, See above. I wonder how long they will keep up the lie(delusion) of Iberia being a source of mt-DNA H1. The more I read the more I am convinced it is Central North Africa maybe present day Tunisia.






There are essentially two ways of determining origin of a Haplogroup eg mt-DNA H1.

1. Geographic Frequency

2. Resolution(think magnifying glass) = older HG shows more variation or diversity


Eg Africans have more genetic diversity ie older….The data shows, yet again, just as in other recent studies, the diversity of H1 is higher in Tunisia compared to all other African groups, even larger than Morocco the supposedly entry point of Europeans into North Africa.


Notice also they did NOT include the diversity value for Iberia or Sardinia(2nd Image table). Common sense or simple logic states they should have include Iberia. Why? Their premise. the H1 is older in Iberia and was the jump off point, Iberia should have the highest diversity. There wouldn’t be any doubt if Iberia was included. Iberia however was NOT included in the data set.


That is really suspicious. Now they may put it out there that the intent of the study was to the origin of H1 IN Africa. But even that is wrong, the data shows Tunisia NOT Morocco has the highest H1 diversity in Africa. Which proves their premise FALSE. Someone tell me I am wrong!! Am I the most intelligent here?


So the title of the study is…again…misleading. Their lies are really sophisticated. There is no proof of what they are saying. The data shows essentially there was H1 migration from Tunisia(CAN) to the rest of North Africa and not from Morocco to the rest of North Africa.

Essentially, they started with the premise/fantasy of Iberian women(not men-but give the impression men were included) migrating over to Africa without providing that data however the data prove the migration from Tunisia to the rest of North African….not even Morocco!! To date there is no genetic data showing European males migrating to Africa pre-Iron age.

They will soon rescind that nonsense theory about back-migration of European women into North Africa. Give Torroni a few more years , he is BSing just much as Cruciani. Remember Cruciani et al and back migration of E1b1b from Asia to North Africa. Which was proven wrong. Then R-V88 back-migration to Cameroon area which was also recently proven wrong.


Got to admit these guys got some Kahunas!!. I guess they believe no one can understand this stuff.

Note(2nd image):

MOST mtDNA H Haplotype diversity= Tunisia

MOST nucleotide diversity = Tunisia

MOST Avg number of nucleotide differences= Tunisia

Most Number of Haplotypes = Tunisia is a close second

Highest frequency H1 is Tunisia/Libya are (including Europe) – 1 st image

From previous study, highest frequency of H* is Tunisia and Iberians Peninsula/Levant.

There is a common theme here….Tunisia


The only thing they are relying on for an Iberian origin is COALESCENCE age , which error can vary by +/-10K years….ANYONE?!

Come to think of it was coalescence age also used to explain the back-migration of E1b1b to North Africa? Got to research that.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
@ XYYman

Can't tell your commentary from the original real text.
Why not case text between quote tags and do not add to it?


Right now I'm charting uniparental hgs and
major subclades by letter, coalesce age,
"assumed" geo origin, and migration eras to
help make sense out of disparent hgs like H1,
U6, and R1b.

That's for my OoA thread for which I'm also
pouring over old ethnography books I used to
own like The Secret Museum of Mankind and
Hutchinson's Customs for hair, faces, costume,
and economy before worldwide local traditions
adopted Euro standards in grooming and dress
(not to mention plastic surgery).

Also using interlibrary loan for Muzzolini and
Hachid on Saharan rock art, particularly those
anomalous chalk white guys of the Tin Anneuin
school. They're spread from Tassili to Fezzan.


BTW hg E fits with the OoA derivations and
timeframes when folk were going back and forth
between the Horn and SW Arabian peninsula! This
gives ethnocentrics ammunition for E as a back
migration from "Eurasia" but obviously not from
any current "Eurasian looking" people -- you know,
caucasoid; refreshing the 'Hamitic Hypothesis' and
'Myth of the Negro' just moved back 10s of millenia
in time.

Just because the science is new doesn't mean the
geneticists aren't using notions of 19th and 20th
century physical anthropologists and even today's
forensic anthropologists.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Will repost later....but it is looks like H1 is maybe NA-Tunisia origin. Trying to get my hands on current data showing H1 origin in Iberia.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I am willing to embarassing myself...to learn or, expose math short comings (lioness). If you don't understand, festup. Not sure you understand my point. Or may be it is me. I am saying H1 has highest frequency and diverstity in NA compared to Iberia. Tell me I am wrong!!!! I am willing to look a fool. Anyone!!!??? No false pride with this bad boy....

This not a dickfest...you would lose....just kidding. Educate us. Sounds like you stumbling or bsing!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.

---

quote:

---

No Lioness the researchers are saying highest frequency = origin

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I am willing to embarassing myself...to learn or, expose math short comings (lioness). If you don't understand, festup. Not sure you understand my point. Or may be it is me. I am saying H1 has highest frequency and diverstity in NA compared to Iberia. Tell me I am wrong!!!! I am willing to look a fool. Anyone!!!??? No false pride with this bad boy....

This not a dickfest...you would lose....just kidding. Educate us. Sounds like you stumbling or bsing!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.

---

---

quote:

---

First – I am talking H1 not R1b. We will get to R1b later.

---

quote:

---

Second – I am not sure what is the point of the R1b comment. Do you mean R1b1a2* is the mate for H1?

---

^All the evidence right here that you simply don't know what you're talking about. I mention the mtDNA demographic changes implied in R1b becoming BY FAR the dominant Y chromosome in post Eneolithic Iberia, and you stumble to see the implications of what I'm saying, as if I just asked you compute the distance between Mars and the Earth in nanometers.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
xyyman I have already explained your dumbness over frequency = origin. A population in isolation may preserve the highest frequency of given hg yet that may not be the point of origin, when will you get it ?


lioness
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ What about both frequency and diversity along with archaeology that disproves your mixed-up theories?

Both mtDNA hg H and U if they really are Eurasian entered Africa the same time as NRY hg R. Yet how come I don't see you claiming West Africans like Cameroonians as mixed??
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
For those who are wondering where this is taking us…Based upon the data what we have here is several, distinct migration of AMH into Europe, most likely at different points of entry. Some from the Near East , some from North Africa, some from the Steppes of Asia. However through environmental pressures they all look the same. Proof again that nature has the final word….no admixture needed.

Furthermore what they look like now may be completely different to what they looked like when they entered Europe. The same goes for AMH in Africa. They probably looked different several thousand years ago. NA Berbers are geographically African and CODIS STRs prove it. Now we have H1 Africans with African STRs and H1 Europeans with European STRs. Proof again - Race does not exist. This is really fascinating.. So Lioness don’t try to box people in your limited world view.

Case in point - News that Rameses III is E1b1a. Here we have a “Caucasoid” mummy having the worst “Negroid” Haplogroup ever. And he wasn’t the only mummy like this, ALL mummies tested so far are genetically sub-saharan; see Amarnas. LOL!! Geography don’t lie. “Political” Scientist do…pun intended. He! He!
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Anyone, I hope you understand the question. Provide a study that shows data that Iberia has the higher diversity(age), frequency (amount) and maybe coalescence age combined, compared with populations in North Africa, particularly Tunisia. In other words prove to me H1 is European. Provide the study from any decade. 1980’s to current. Please do not quote that Achilli et al 2004 or Torroni et al 2006. Though relevant, they studies focuses either on Europe ONLY or frequency, not all three..

If you don’t know…stay on the side lines.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Anyone, I hope you understand the question. Provide a study that shows data that Iberia has the higher diversity(age), frequency (amount) and maybe coalescence age combined, compared with populations in North Africa, particularly Tunisia. In other words prove to me H1 is European. Provide the study from any decade. 1980’s to current. Please do not quote that Achilli et al 2004 or Torroni et al 2006. Though relevant, they studies focuses either on Europe ONLY or frequency, not all three..

If you don’t know…stay on the side lines.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What the fyuck are you talking about DJ? Stay on the side lines …….please. U6 is African, U5 Sardinian. Please STFU if you don’ t having anything sensible to contribute…..


Those one line responses don’t cut it. If you want to be involved in the discussion provide and analyze data

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ What about both frequency and diversity along with archaeology that disproves your mixed-up theories?

Both mtDNA hg H and U if they really are Eurasian entered Africa the same time as NRY hg R. Yet how come I don't see you claiming West Africans like Cameroonians as mixed??

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Case in point - News that Rameses III is E1b1a. Here we have a “Caucasoid” mummy having the worst “Negroid” Haplogroup ever. And he wasn’t the only mummy like this, ALL mummies tested so far are genetically sub-saharan; see Amarnas. LOL!! Geography don’t lie. “Political” Scientist do…pun intended. He! He! [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Anyone, I hope you understand the question. Provide a study that shows data that Iberia has the higher diversity(age), frequency (amount) and maybe coalescence age combined, compared with populations in North Africa, particularly Tunisia. In other words prove to me H1 is European. Provide the study from any decade. 1980’s to current. Please do not quote that Achilli et al 2004 or Torroni et al 2006. Though relevant, they studies focuses either on Europe ONLY or frequency, not all three..

If you don’t know…stay on the side lines.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB] [QUOTE]No Lioness the researchers are saying highest frequency = origin

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler
@ XYYman

Right now I'm charting uniparental hgs and
major subclades by letter, coalesce age,
"assumed" geo origin, and migration eras to
help make sense out of disparent hgs like H1,
U6, and R1b.
.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler

@ XYYman

….. disparent hgs like H1,
U6, and R1b.

--------Just because the science is new ****doesn't mean the
geneticists aren't using notions of 19th and 20th
century physical anthropologists***** and even today's
forensic anthropologists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Case in point - News that Rameses III is E1b1a. Here we have a “Caucasoid” mummy having the worst “Negroid” Haplogroup ever. And he wasn’t the only mummy like this, ALL mummies tested so far are genetically sub-saharan; see Amarnas. LOL!! Geography don’t lie. “Political” Scientist do…pun intended. He! He!

---

a remarkable theory, the so called "Caucasian" originated in Africa and only later left Africa [/QB]

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
From the Achilli et al paper 2004 -

Table 1


Population Distribution and FREQUENCIES of Haplogroup H, H1, and H3 mtDNAs




Table of hg-H Frequency in Medit Area


===================

notice the high FREQUENCY of H in Sardinia. The study is old(2004). Since then technology has improved and more sampling has taken place in North Africa. As of 2010 highest FREQUENCY and more diversity is found in Tunisia area.

The Nile region continue to be low in sub-clades of H. Prompting that "barrier" paper. Apparently hg-H could not penetrate the Nile Valley. Further proof it(hgH*) did NOT originate in the NE.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
As of 2010 this is general model for mt-DNA H.


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

What the fyuck are you talking about DJ? Stay on the side lines …….please. U6 is African, U5 Sardinian. Please STFU if you don’ t having anything sensible to contribute…..


Those one line responses don’t cut it. If you want to be involved in the discussion provide and analyze data

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ What about both frequency and diversity along with archaeology that disproves your mixed-up theories?

Both mtDNA hg H and U if they really are Eurasian entered Africa the same time as NRY hg R. Yet how come I don't see you claiming West Africans like Cameroonians as mixed??

---

---

What!! Mothafucka, I am much more knowledgeable and have a way better grasp of the data than you! Swenet is right, you are nothing more than an amateur who talks like he's an expert when you barely know what you're talking about!! So if anyone needs to STFU it is YOU!

By the way, my post above was toward lyinass not YOU!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:



a remarkable theory, the so called "Caucasian" originated in Africa and only later left Africa

---

Nope! The FACT is there is NO such thing as "Caucasian". Your picture of Ramses mummy means nothings since we have actual painted portraits of him showing how he looked liked in real life as well as x-rays of the actual skull which show African affinities. We know you like to post pictures of mummies and then 'jump to conclusions' but it ain't working.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yaaaawnnnn!!!!!!

MtDNA H before 2004




MtDNA H after 2010(note this includes Eurasia!!)




This is my brain on science, any questions?

Ha! Ha! Ha!

OoopS!! Killing time before the game. Would be nice if that Ghanian/Germany kid get that MVP.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Any takers...? In case you are wondering? This proves Torrinni's Refugia Theory and the recolonization of Europe is BS ...give them about a year they will come completely around. H1 are recent African migrants to Europe. It is so simple...compare the diversity of H1 in Europe to Africa.

QUOTE:


================
Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.

García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM.


Source

Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain.


Abstract

It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
So there you have it...both modern European (female)H1 and (male)R1b1a2* did not originate from the Basque population which is the basis of the Refugia recolonization theory.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Re-think everything...


=========
The genetic history of Europeans.

Pinhasi R, Thomas MG, Hofreiter M, Currat M, Burger J.


Source

Department of Archaeology, University College Cork, Cork, Ireland. ron_pinhasi@yahoo.com


Abstract

The evolutionary history of modern humans is characterized by numerous migrations driven by environmental change, population pressures, and cultural innovations. In Europe, the events most widely considered to have had a major impact on patterns of genetic diversity are the initial colonization of the continent by anatomically modern humans (AMH), the last glacial maximum, and the Neolithic transition. For some decades it was assumed that the geographical structuring of genetic diversity within Europe was mainly the result of gene flow during and soon after the Neolithic transition, but recent advances in next-generation sequencing (NGS) technologies, computer simulation modeling, and ancient DNA (aDNA) analyses are challenging this simplistic view. Here we review the current knowledge on the evolutionary history of humans in Europe based on archaeological and genetic data.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Any takers...? In case you are wondering? This proves Torrinni's Refugia Theory and the recolonization of Europe is BS ...give them about a year they will come completely around. H1 are recent African migrants to Europe. It is so simple...compare the diversity of H1 in Europe to Africa.

QUOTE:


================
Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.

García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM.


Source

Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain.


Abstract

It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I agree. I believe H1 was introduced to Europe during the African Muslim expansion into Europe and settlement in Iberia for almost 1000 years.

---

Ahw hell naww!



These nutty mtDNA H1 fruitbaskets are all over the place.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I believe he was being facetious...but what is your view (sic)
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
The genetic history of Europeans.

Pinhasi R, Thomas MG, Hofreiter M, Currat M, Burger J.


Source

Department of Archaeology, University College Cork, Cork, Ireland. ron_pinhasi@yahoo.com


Abstract

The evolutionary history of modern humans is characterized by numerous migrations driven by environmental change, population pressures, and cultural innovations. In Europe, the events most widely considered to have had a major impact on patterns of genetic diversity are the initial colonization of the continent by anatomically modern humans (AMH), the last glacial maximum, and the Neolithic transition. For some decades it was assumed that the geographical structuring of genetic diversity within Europe was mainly the result of gene flow during and soon after the Neolithic transition, but recent advances in next-generation sequencing (NGS) technologies, computer simulation modeling, and ancient DNA (aDNA) analyses are challenging this simplistic view. Here we review the current knowledge on the evolutionary history of humans in Europe based on archaeological and genetic data.

^^SO what conclusions do you draw from their analysis xyz?

------------------------------------------------------------------



Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.

García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM.


Source

Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain.


Abstract

It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.

^6SO the Franco-Canto refugium theory is shaky?
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
And what do you think of Dinkenes claim below- quote:

On the earliest settlement of Europe- from Pinhasi study:

Until recently, the earliest date for the first appearance of AMH in Europe had been set to around 42 to 43 ka solely based on their proposed association with Aurignacian artifacts (Table 1) [5,6]. New direct radiocarbon dates of fossils support this view and indicate that AMH appeared in Europe by 44.2– 41.5 calibrated (cal.) ka BP at Kent’s Cavern in southern England [6] and by 45–43 cal. ka BP in Grotta del Cavallo, Italy [7], whereas Neanderthals did not survive in most of Europe and the Caucasus after 39 cal. ka BP [8,9].

Dinkes then claims:

These dates are so close to the MP/UP transition in the Levant (49-46 cal ky BP), with the Aurignacian appearing shortly thereafter in both Central Europe and Italy. It would appear that modern humans swiftly colonized Europe after they made the crucial UP leap. Of course, in my opinion, this population was ultimately descended from inhabitants of Arabia, escaping post-70ka climatic deterioration and pre-100ka with the archaeologically attested Nubian Complex. But, in any case, it is probably the last crucial step, when humans went into warp drive post-50ka that led to the first modern human colonization of Europe and ultimately the extinction (or absorption?) of the Neandertals.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Dink further claims:

In that respect, it is important to note the correspondence between the West_Asian autosomal component and the k5 component of Metspalu et al. (2011): the latter is the major West Eurasian element in the Indian subcontinent. If a major episode of West Eurasian admixture took place in India 1,200-4,000 years ago, and keeping in mind uncertainties about dating, it may very well be that this corresponds, at least in part, to the eastern manifestation of the same phenomenon.

The Bronze Age is an important transitional phase in European archaeology: distinctive archaeological cultures with distinctive physical types make their appearance across the continent. There appears to be substantial innovation in metallurgy, weapons and transportation, increase in raiding, abandonment of settlements, and formation of broad-range confederacies with distinctive archaeological markers.

I propose that a quantum leap in social complexity occurred during this period. Remarkably, after ~4,000YBP, there are no longer farmers and hunter-gatherers as distinct cultures anywhere in Europe, and their mtDNA gene pools begin to expand in synch with each other. It may very well be that climatic upheavals framing this period may have triggered population movements, both Indo-European and Semitic.


Perhaps, through a combination of better technology and social organization, the Indo-European speaking nucleus, originally one among many linguistic groups of the prehistoric Near East were able to transmit their language, culture, and ideology to much larger populations, by alternatively subjugating or incorporating them. We can thus view the Indo-European bearers as "creative destructors", upsetting the balance of established societies and re-creating them in their own image.

Both the wide differences in genetic composition among present-day Indo-European speakers, and their early-attested physical contrasts testify to the fact that the original IE nucleus did not maintain itself apart --at least not for long!-- from the populations they encountered; in this they appear different from the earlier farmers who apparently kept their Mediterranean affinity even in the northernmost edge of their expansion, thousands of years after their entry into Europe.


^^His model has a "social complexity leap" in
Europe being due to the influence of incoming West Asians.

One wonders about this statement also:
" Remarkably, after ~4,000YBP, there are no longer farmers and hunter-gatherers as distinct cultures anywhere in Europe.. "
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
When studying the significance of coalescence ages reported in journals, one has to be careful in how to interpret such data, as it is generally sensitive to the DNA-sequencing data and estimation methods employed by the observing parties.

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari- :

You know explorer brings up a good point, that is say me, Al and Swenet are correct in that the Genetic heritage of the Coastal N. African population is due to a long drawn out process rather than recent slave markets, the question becomes.. why are European/Eurasian male DNA not reflected? Good question.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I never mentioned the "extermination" factor which
may have been shunting off males with no previous
North African maternity.

Knowing the Kikuyu and Maasai conducted death raids
against each other saving alive and taking only younger
females and the lack of nrY hgs expected by South Europe
whole family settlers (unless hidden in E-M78 or whatever)
and rock art of chalk white men with European armaments
but never with women or in family scenes makes one wonder.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
European/Eurasian male DNA is reflected in the topic article
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Henn

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Come on Clyde. .....the distribution pattern does not support that premise. The pattern is not consistent with invasion. It is consistent with demic diffusion and expansion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ any haplogroup I would mention you will say is African because all DNA is a branch which eventually leads back to Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
But as I said to Swenet coalescene age is easily manipulated. I believe Explorer is saying the same thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
... I find it curious how in North Africa indigenous E-M35 yet in Sub-Sahara you have alleged Eurasian clades like R and T.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
The genetic history of Europeans.

Pinhasi R, Thomas MG, Hofreiter M, Currat M, Burger J.


Source

Department of Archaeology, University College Cork, Cork, Ireland. ron_pinhasi@yahoo.com


Abstract

The evolutionary history of modern humans is characterized by numerous migrations driven by environmental change, population pressures, and cultural innovations. In Europe, the events most widely considered to have had a major impact on patterns of genetic diversity are the initial colonization of the continent by anatomically modern humans (AMH), the last glacial maximum, and the Neolithic transition. For some decades it was assumed that the geographical structuring of genetic diversity within Europe was mainly the result of gene flow during and soon after the Neolithic transition, but recent advances in next-generation sequencing (NGS) technologies, computer simulation modeling, and ancient DNA (aDNA) analyses are challenging this simplistic view. Here we review the current knowledge on the evolutionary history of humans in Europe based on archaeological and genetic data.

^^SO what conclusions do you draw from their analysis xyz?

------------------------------------------------------------------



Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.

García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM.


Source

Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain.


Abstract

It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.

^6SO the Franco-Canto refugium theory is shaky?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


aDNA is proving that ancient Europeans are genetically different to the extant ones.

---

Distribution map of the Egyptian Gene shows its African origin, partial presence in Coptic populations today (green dots in Egypt) and scattered incidence around the world.

Today, as many as one-fourth of all people on earth would test positive for the Thuya Gene. It is twice as common in Somalia as outside Africa and is found in 40% of Muslim Egyptians.

Citation: Hawass Z, Gad YZ, Ismail S, et al. Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family. JAMA. 2010;303(7):638-647.

The Akhenaten Gene.

Named for the pharaoh who attempted to convert Egypt to monotheism, this autosomal ancestry marker like most of the Amarna family group’s DNA is clearly African in origin. Akhenaten received it from his mother, Queen Tiye. It is most common today in Copts.
Today, it is the gene type carried by a majority (52%) of the Copts living in the Pre-dynastic site of Adaima near Thebes or Luxor and the Valley of the Kings on the Nile River in Upper (southern) Egypt.

The Egyptian Gene.

Although not carried in the royal mummies whose DNA has been studied so far, this autosomal ancestry marker is also clearly African in origin and enjoys its greatest spread in Egyptians. Quite rare worldwide, it is found in about 1 in 10 Copts, today’s successors to the ancient Egyptians. Less than one percent of European Americans have it, while African Americans preserve it at a rate of three times that of their white neighbors.

Thuya Gene

Today, its highest incidence is in Somalians at nearly 50%. It is found in 40% of Muslim Egyptians. On average, 1 in 3 Africans or African Americans carries it. It crops up in high concentrations in many places around the world such as the Basque region (41%) and in Melungeons (31%, similar to Middle Easterners)
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
lioness, where are those "male" specific European DNA requested of you, that you bragged about? This is the time to demonstrate that this is not just an imagination...like the fictitious drivel you tried to pin onto me as a diversion.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
lioness, where are those "male" specific European DNA requested of you, that you bragged about? This is the time to demonstrate that this is not just an imagination...like the fictitious drivel you tried to pin onto me as a diversion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
lioness productions

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
@ Lioness Production:
I got to admit you can be crafty to the unsuspecting and ignorant. But with me, you are out of your league. As usual mis-reprersentatiion of Hawass’s JAMA report. Ie typical white man deception.

Hawass and JAMA never proposed a Thuya or Akhenaten Gene etc. That proposal was made by a commercial company trying to sell their product.

There is no such thing as a Thuya gene etc sheeeeesh!!. You are a sneaky son of a bythch.. Hawass is a bigot but I don’t think he will make up such a silly lie that he can get caught in.


There is no such thing as a Thuya gene!!!!! Just as there is no such thing as a Neanderthal gene. This is all advertisement by commercial companies to sell their product….DNA Analysis. Shyte mine came back 4% Neanderthal (GTFOH!!)


I am speaking from memory, on the JAMA report, will need to double check, but the only authenticated data(ie facts) that came from the JAMA report was the STRs. DNAtribes was the first to make the connection, take that STR(8) data and affiliate it with a known global population from their database. Now anyone with a computer and the right software can do it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


aDNA is proving that ancient Europeans are genetically different to the extant ones.

---

Distribution map of the Egyptian Gene shows its African origin, partial presence in Coptic populations today (green dots in Egypt) and scattered incidence around the world.

Today, as many as one-fourth of all people on earth would test positive for the Thuya Gene. It is twice as common in Somalia as outside Africa and is found in 40% of Muslim Egyptians.

Citation: Hawass Z, Gad YZ, Ismail S, et al. Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family. JAMA. 2010;303(7):638-647.

The Akhenaten Gene.

Named for the pharaoh who attempted to convert Egypt to monotheism, this autosomal ancestry marker like most of the Amarna family group’s DNA is clearly African in origin. Akhenaten received it from his mother, Queen Tiye. It is most common today in Copts.
Today, it is the gene type carried by a majority (52%) of the Copts living in the Pre-dynastic site of Adaima near Thebes or Luxor and the Valley of the Kings on the Nile River in Upper (southern) Egypt.

The Egyptian Gene.

Although not carried in the royal mummies whose DNA has been studied so far, this autosomal ancestry marker is also clearly African in origin and enjoys its greatest spread in Egyptians. Quite rare worldwide, it is found in about 1 in 10 Copts, today’s successors to the ancient Egyptians. Less than one percent of European Americans have it, while African Americans preserve it at a rate of three times that of their white neighbors.

Thuya Gene

Today, its highest incidence is in Somalians at nearly 50%. It is found in 40% of Muslim Egyptians. On average, 1 in 3 Africans or African Americans carries it. It crops up in high concentrations in many places around the world such as the Basque region (41%) and in Melungeons (31%, similar to Middle Easterners)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
lioness productions

---

lol you stupid ignorant bitch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Just checked JAMA. This is NOT from the Amarna JAMA report. Man, you white people are experts at deception and misdirection and mis-representation.. You almost got me. The ignorant can easily get fooled by you.

In fact, the illustration looks like that software developer's from the San Diego Police Dept. I posted the popaffl link on ESR.

Anywho what the pic show. Strongest, greenest, match is SSA and Aframs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
lioness productions

---

lol you stupid ignorant bitch.

---

^^^ lowlife fraud who thinks Trayvon Martin got what he deserved

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ you have no value whatsoever on this site.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Hawass and JAMA never proposed a Thuya or Akhenaten Gene etc. That proposal was made by a commercial company trying to sell their product.

There is no such thing as a Thuya gene etc sheeeeesh!!.

There is no such thing as a Thuya gene!!!!! Just as there is no such thing as a Neanderthal gene. This is all advertisement by commercial companies to sell their product….DNA Analysis. Shyte mine came back 4% Neanderthal (GTFOH!!)


I am speaking from memory, on the JAMA report, will need to double check, but the only authenticated data(ie facts) that came from the JAMA report was the STRs. DNAtribes was the first to make the connection, take that STR(8) data and affiliate it with a known global population from their database. Now anyone with a computer and the right software can do it.

---

Science is about replicity so one really needs
genome reports from say 3 analyzers to validate
an individual's personal genetics. And even then
field advances will modify current interpretations.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Anyone willing to discuss this?

I have gone past the Caucasoid/Negroid nonsense. Or whether the AEians were indigenous Black Africans. They undoubtedly were. What is fascinating and holding my interest is how extensive these Saharan African civilizations reached the shores of the Mediterranean. Using available tools to piece things together; Archeology, geography, aDNA, extant DNA, Osteometry and linguistic(very little knowledge with this).

Always start with the most obvious locations. Sardinia, Iberia, Crete and the Levant. After all these ancient humans did not take airplanes and flew over these connecting points.

Critiquing this paper shows again how deceptive Europeans are. It is obvious the Nuragic(Sardinia) Civilization were African migrants (goes back to Sergi). DNA technology is proving Sergi right. If no takers I will post on ESR.

For those not familiar with the Nuragic civilization read up on it. I just did. And I was shocked with the similarity to the Sahara rock technology and buildings. Another example of Europeans stealing African history. The archeological technology is definitely African. Now I am researching the aDNA studies.

Further more I now see how the Etruscans fit into the migration route. And why Etruscia is on the WESTERN side of the Italian peninsular.

Apparently the Sardinians and Etruscans are from the Tunisian line of North Africans while the Pelegascians and Cretes are from the Egyptian line of North Africans.

Here is the ancient genetic evidence

To the newbies. – understanding geography is really important.


==========

Caramelli and GUIDO BARBUJANI et al Genetic variation in prehistoric Sardinia


Abstract We sampled teeth from 53 ancient Sardinian (Nuragic) individuals who lived in the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, between 3,430 and 2,700 years ago. After eliminating the samples that, in preliminary biochemical tests, did not show a high probability to yield reproducible results, we obtained 23 sequences of the mitochondrial DNA control region, which were associated to haplogroups by comparison with a dataset of modern sequences. The Nuragic samples show a remarkably low genetic diversity, comparable to that observed in ancient Iberians, but much lower than among the Etruscans. Most of these sequences have exact matches in two modern Sardinian populations supporting a clear genealogical continuity from the Late Bronze Age up to current times. The Nuragic populations appear to be part of a large and geographically unstructured cluster of modern European populations, thus making it diffcult to infer their evolutionary relationships. However, the low levels of genetic diversity, both within and among ancient samples, as opposed to the sharp divergences among modern Sardinian samples, support the hypothesis of the expansion of a small group of maternally related individuals, and of comparatively recent differentiation of the Sardinian gene pools.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Caramelli and GUIDO BARBUJANI et al Genetic variation in prehistoric Sardinia


Abstract We sampled teeth from 53 ancient Sardinian (Nuragic) individuals who lived in the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, between 3,430 and 2,700 years ago. After eliminating the samples that, in preliminary biochemical tests, did not show a high probability to yield reproducible results, we obtained 23 sequences of the mitochondrial DNA control region, which were associated to haplogroups by comparison with a dataset of modern sequences. The Nuragic samples show a remarkably low genetic diversity, comparable to that observed in ancient Iberians, but much lower than among the Etruscans. Most of these sequences have exact matches in two modern Sardinian populations supporting a clear genealogical continuity from the Late Bronze Age up to current times. The Nuragic populations appear to be part of a large and geographically unstructured cluster of modern European populations, thus making it diffcult to infer their evolutionary relationships. However, the low levels of genetic diversity, both within and among ancient samples, as opposed to the sharp divergences among modern Sardinian samples, [b]support the hypothesis of the expansion of a small group of maternally related individuals, and of comparatively recent differentiation of the Sardinian gene pools.


_____________________________________________

Frozen in the ice 5,300 years ago, Ötzi man mostly closely resembles the people of Sardinia and their distinctive genetic profile according to the recent article:

New insights into the Tyrolean Iceman’s origin and phenotype as inferred by whole-genome sequencing.




 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Anyone willing to discuss this?

I have gone past the Caucasoid/Negroid nonsense. Or whether the AEians were indigenous Black Africans. They undoubtedly were. What is fascinating and holding my interest is how extensive these Saharan African civilizations reached the shores of the Mediterranean. Using available tools to piece things together; Archeology, geography, aDNA, extant DNA, Osteometry and linguistic(very little knowledge with this).

Always start with the most obvious locations. Sardinia, Iberia, Crete and the Levant. After all these ancient humans did not take airplanes and flew over these connecting points.

Critiquing this paper shows again how deceptive Europeans are. It is obvious the Nuragic(Sardinia) Civilization were African migrants (goes back to Sergi). DNA technology is proving Sergi right. If no takers I will post on ESR.

For those not familiar with the Nuragic civilization read up on it. I just did. And I was shocked with the similarity to the Sahara rock technology and buildings. Another example of Europeans stealing African history. The archeological technology is definitely African. Now I am researching the aDNA studies.

Further more I now see how the Etruscans fit into the migration route. And why Etruscia is on the WESTERN side of the Italian peninsular.

Apparently the Sardinians and Etruscans are from the Tunisian line of North Africans while the Pelegascians and Cretes are from the Egyptian line of North Africans.

Here is the ancient genetic evidence

To the newbies. – understanding geography is really important.


==========

Caramelli and GUIDO BARBUJANI et al Genetic variation in prehistoric Sardinia


Abstract We sampled teeth from 53 ancient Sardinian (Nuragic) individuals who lived in the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, between 3,430 and 2,700 years ago. After eliminating the samples that, in preliminary biochemical tests, did not show a high probability to yield reproducible results, we obtained 23 sequences of the mitochondrial DNA control region, which were associated to haplogroups by comparison with a dataset of modern sequences. The Nuragic samples show a remarkably low genetic diversity, comparable to that observed in ancient Iberians, but much lower than among the Etruscans. Most of these sequences have exact matches in two modern Sardinian populations supporting a clear genealogical continuity from the Late Bronze Age up to current times. The Nuragic populations appear to be part of a large and geographically unstructured cluster of modern European populations, thus making it diffcult to infer their evolutionary relationships. However, the low levels of genetic diversity, both within and among ancient samples, as opposed to the sharp divergences among modern Sardinian samples, support the hypothesis of the expansion of a small group of maternally related individuals, and of comparatively recent differentiation of the Sardinian gene pools.

---

Your claims are rather exaggerated or overgeneralized though there is some truth to it. For one thing, genetics and archaeology have already shown the Etruscans and Pelasgians to be of Asiatic descent NOT African, however there was no doubt an African presence prior to the migrations of these Asiatic folks both in Crete as well as in Sicily.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ahem!! I expect more than just regurgitation. or mindless quotes. Please, read the paper then critique. If you can't... forget about it. I will move on. This is from the study..anyone?



I will make it easy. There are a couple of sentences from the authors that give it all away.

And ...DJ... I prefer not be condescending, but I know you can't help yourself. You said you went to college. Hint: Imagine you are taking an exam. Start with the process of elimination

BTW: The authors conclude that the Sardinians (Nuragic) are probably Iberian and defintely NOT Asian. Do you want me to point it out to you....? They were emphatic about NOT being Asian.

My point is the data shows a different origin. And they even said so within the paper but glossed over it.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Guido Barbujani et al concluded the Etruscans are NOT from Asia or Anatolia....do you want me to post it? If you don't know that then don't waste my time.

Achille et al, the bigot, initially claimed Anatolian origin. Barbujani et al debunked that premise.

Once you read enough you know who the key players are and there point of view.

Come on Lioness. You claim to be smart...

if not I will move on and post on ESR. I am getting some hits there. Maybe Dienkess will get it also
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:


Come on Lioness. You claim to be smart...

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

Ahem!! I expect more than just regurgitation. or mindless quotes. Please, read the paper then critique. If you can't... forget about it. I will move on. This is from the study..anyone?



I will make it easy. There are a couple of sentences from the authors that give it all away.

And ...DJ... I prefer not be condescending, but I know you can't help yourself. You said you went to college. Hint: Imagine you are taking an exam. Start with the process of elimination

BTW: The authors conclude that the Sardinians (Nuragic) are probably Iberian and defintely NOT Asian. Do you want me to point it out to you....? They were emphatic about NOT being Asian.

My point is the data shows a different origin. And they even said so within the paper but glossed over it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

Guido Barbujani et al concluded the Etruscans are NOT from Asia or Anatolia....do you want me to post it? If you don't know that then don't waste my time.

Achille et al, the bigot, initially claimed Anatolian origin. Barbujani et al debunked that premise.

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