quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Beyoku, I will get back at you. Double checking a few things on SNPs.
To get started...how am I screwing up? You said I misunderstand the Behar chart. I am saying Sardinians carry high frequency of North Africans components(k-10 clearly shows that) as displayed by light blue. The dark blue being European.
Set me straight. Careful now.....go slowly
The light blue component in K=10 is NOT a North African specific component. It is a rather generic Southern European component. In the Previous K's the Light blue is a somewhat genetic Eurasian component. Peaking in Yemeni Jews and Saudis at different times and in Mozabites at K=9. Although it peaks in Mozabites at K=9, notice it is not a Maghreb specific component. It is generic: Romainians, French, Hungarians et al do not derive 1/3rd of their ancestry from the Maghreb. Going on to k=10 The magreb specific component materializes and is in Dark Purple. I have no idea how you can miss this...it comprises the majority component in Moroccans and Mozabites. This is similar to the Light blue in Henn (K=8).
In K=10 what you are seeing is a combination of Southern European (Light Blue), Northern European (Dark Blue) and what is best described as "West Asian": (Light Green). These components have been verified time and time again using structure/admixture.
Looking at K=10 the purple Maghreb component is very low outside Africa and nearly terminated in Europe...only showing a very minor presence in Spaniards. The lack of west Asian (Light Green) in Horn Africans and Maghreb but its presence in the Middle East and Egypt has always been seen as an indication that backflow bringing a South West Asian component into Africa (Light Purple/Blue) was at the time void of a more West Asian signature (Light Green) now found in the Middle Near/East.
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Ok. I went back and double checked my statement on Behar. You had me 2nd guessing my statement ..because you are one of the more standup guys here. Apparently you don’t BS.
I am ready. Prove to me where I am wrong. I stand by my statements.
****
Source - NIJ Final Report September 1, 2007 to February 28, 2011 Population Genetics of SNPs for Forensic Purposes NIJ Grant# 2007-DN-BX-K197, including supplement Kenneth K. Kidd (PI), Yale University School of Medicine
Page 62-67.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Beyoku, I will get back at you. Double checking a few things on SNPs.
To get started...how am I screwing up? You said I misunderstand the Behar chart. I am saying Sardinians carry high frequency of North Africans components(k-10 clearly shows that) as displayed by light blue. The dark blue being European.
Set me straight. Careful now.....go slowly
The light blue component in K=10 is NOT a North African specific component. It is a rather generic Southern European component. In the Previous K's the Light blue is a somewhat genetic Eurasian component. Peaking in Yemeni Jews and Saudis at different times and in Mozabites at K=9. Although it peaks in Mozabites at K=9, notice it is not a Maghreb specific component. It is generic: Romainians, French, Hungarians et al do not derive 1/3rd of their ancestry from the Maghreb. Going on to k=10 The magreb specific component materializes and is in Dark Purple. I have no idea how you can miss this...it comprises the majority component in Moroccans and Mozabites. This is similar to the Light blue in Henn (K=8).
In K=10 what you are seeing is a combination of Southern European (Light Blue), Northern European (Dark Blue) and what is best described as "West Asian": (Light Green). These components have been verified time and time again using structure/admixture.
Looking at K=10 the purple Maghreb component is very low outside Africa and nearly terminated in Europe...only showing a very minor presence in Spaniards. The lack of west Asian (Light Green) in Horn Africans and Maghreb but its presence in the Middle East and Egypt has always been seen as an indication that backflow bringing a South West Asian component into Africa (Light Purple/Blue) was at the time void of a more West Asian signature (Light Green) now found in the Middle Near/East.
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^ Hope it is clearer. Also keep in mind that this program is somewhat arbitrary. You can put in the data and tell it what to do and it will give you exactly what you are asking for. But just because it spits out data at any specific K we cannot always see this is real word definitions of Ancestry or genetically accurate descriptions of real life admixture events. perfect example:
"Admixted latinos" (Major component in Black @ K=7) did not contribute that black component to Europeans. As a matter of fact Admixture Latinos did not even exist hundreds of years ago. Contexts means everything. IN the DNA tribes anaylsis that users the term "Saharo-Arabian" the can call the component really whatever they want. DOnt be confused by the name....but as the increase in K=(populations) sooner or later each population will differentiate. The results they have where Berbers and Arabs are in the same group at a pretty high K is not too optimal. They will turn around and use that same data and differentiate Berbers and Arabs and call the components totally different things the next day.
Excuse the large picture but K=8 shows an ever starker contrast:
One tiny component in portugal and spain drifts comprise the vast majority of a component in Admixtued Latinos. Now this goes back to my very first post on why you could argue an African SSA origin of that Berber component or SW Asian component that is showing up in Behar. I would not make the argument......but there is some evidence that at least supports the idea.
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We will discuss endogamy and the impact on SNPs later but…
******
quote by Beyoku: The Magreb specific component materializes and is in Dark Purple. – False!!!.
Purple is the Mazabite specific component. Which shows up at K9. See authors note. Henn saw the same thing with the Tunisians(we agree on that – similar to K=8 Henn). She assumed endogamy. Irregardless purple is NOT Magreb it is specific to Mazab.
Taking frequency/geography as the foundation then light blue is NOT Europeans/Southern European. Again see authors note.
I agree that Dark Green and Dark Blue is Middle Eastern and European respectively.
I agree that Russians, Lithuianians etc do not have Magreb ancestry but the French and other southern Europeans do as reflected with light blue. That is why there is no light blue in that k-cluster in Northern Europeans but Sardinians do. Hence light blue and Dark Green in Sardinians. Remember Henn concluded that the migration was one way. Ie Africa to Southern Europe this chart support that view. As I said before.
To summarize I think we agree on MOST things. But Dark Purple is NOT Magrebi it is specific to one group, Mazab. Henn saw the same thing with Tunisian. Maybe they both sampled the same ethnic group. Light blue is the Magreb component. Read the supplementals and the paper brother.
Remember that is why Henn emphasize the limitations of SNPs and it should be combined with uniparental markers.
If you were Sweetness …...
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@Sweetness Yo! I like you but if I were you I would sit on the side-lines and listen in. You are making an ass of yourself. Do you know and understand what you just posted. K-8 is just one cluster..of many.
I know you don’t understand the relevance of what you just posted…now I have to 2nd guess your knowledge on anthropology. I thought you had anthropology down ….now…I may have to question everything you post. If I were you I would quite while I am ahead. Stay out of this. Really.
MEN are discoursing here. Get out a pen and paper and take notes.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ok. I went back and double checked my statement on Behar. You had me 2nd guessing my statement
Damn right. And second guess your views regarding North African ''purity'' too, while you're at it:
--Henn et al 2012
Maghrebi component to Europe component........= 0.059 Maghrebi component to Qatar component..........= 0.055 Maghrebi component to Masaai component..........= 0.093 Maghrebi component to West Africa component..= 0.158 Maghrebi component to Luhya component..........= 0.133 Maghrebi component to Bulala component..........= 0.150
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: K-8 is just one cluster..of many.
No fraud, ''k-8'' indicates eight clusters, not a single one. That's exactly why its called ''k-8'', Osirion. It pains you to no end that the Qatari, your ''pure'' Maghrebi and European components are all equidistant to each other, sharing mutual distances in between 0.050-0.060, doesn't it?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: According to xyyman's theory that the term "Saharan-Arabian" means "pure African" one of the Bedouin groups groups of the Negev desert in Israel, in the Levant are 94% African
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: OK, what exactly is xxyman arguing here? Is he claiming that modern Southern Arabians are all essentially African from a genetic standpoint? Has he even seen photos of most South Arabians on Google image search?
Also, his argument that the Islamic conquest of North Africa entailed no demographic movements, haplogroup J notwithstanding, is a talking point you usually see coming from the Eurocentric camp. It seems out of character for him.
posted
@ Beyoku – to clarify. I interchangeable use dark purple and purple. I did not include light purple in my analysis. Looking at the Pakistani group is a clear indication that light blue is North African and not Southern European. Because the SSA components proportionally shows up in these Pakistani groups. The same pattern is seen with ALL the Jewish groups globally. Including Yemeni and Indian/Pakistani. Ie African (SSA and Saharan) SNPs as a proportional “block” at all k-clusters
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Yall must be joking. "Southern Arabians" are NOT "Africans." There is a clear genetic divide between even Egyptians and Palestinians. There is likely a larger one between Southern Arabians and Sub Saharan East Africans.
Question: what do you consider Southern Arabia?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Beyoku – to clarify. I interchangeable use dark purple and purple. I did not include light purple in my analysis. Looking at the Pakistani group is a clear indication that light blue is North African and not Southern European. Because the SSA components proportionally shows up in these Pakistani groups. The same pattern is seen with ALL the Jewish groups globally. Including Yemeni and Indian/Pakistani. Ie African (SSA and Saharan) SNPs as a proportional “block” at all k-clusters
Sigh....I dont even know where to start. You are going to have to be familiar with the STRUCTURE and ADMIXTURE applications to know what is going on. You are not familiar with these applications that is why you are making mistakes interpreting the data. You are going to have to see other ADMIXTURE runs where they use some of this same data. Mozabite are somewhat inbred BUT when right along with other North African groups they are not inbred to the first cousin level to create their own artificial cluster. THe Mozabite were usually on par with Maghreb ancestry as southern Moroccans and Saharawi - This is data that has been proven PRIOR to the introduction of the Tunisian data set.
Purple does not show up at K=9. It shows up at K=10 and peaks in the Mozabite. The "Light Purple" component that materializes at K=9 is more descriptive of some kind of South WEST Asian ancestry...It peaks in Yemenis, Saudis and Ethiopians. Getting into the details. If you want to say that the purple is NOT Maghreb and is something else.....then Mozabite and Moroccans have VERY LITTLE NORTHWEST AFRICAN ANCESTRY! Moroccan JEWS have more North West African ancestry than Moroccans! Romainians and Hungarians have MORE North West African ancestry than the North West Africans in the study. This makes no sense.....If that light blue you see peaking at K=10 in Sardinia = Maghreb ancestry then most of the people carrying that Ancestry are more BERBER than the BERBERS in the study. Can you understand this? In this program, once a new K is materialized, everything gets shuffled around.
I am fimiliar enough with the program and its uses to have seen the Mozabite and other North Africans in these exercises probably HUNDREDS of times. I have analyzed me OWN ancestry using these programs.
@Troll Patrol - Southern Arabians are Southern Arabian. There are populations in Arabia that are African. Some recent, some ancient. From an OOA perspective the aboriginal population of Arabia which I assume would be the continuation of IJ* lineages and RO/N lineage are not "Africans". SOme of them may look like Africans but they are not Africans. The people on Socotra may look like Africans but they are not. Very little L lineages are found there....and Only 10% E - Lowest in all of Arabia.
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Supplementary Note 4: Details of Structure-like Patterns Old World Analysis (Entire Sample Set)
Dark Brown – San/Pigmy Light Brown – Bantu Dark Blue – European (north and south) Dark Purple – Mazabite unoque. Light Purple – Arabian/Ethiopian Light Blue- North African Light green – Middle Eastern Dark Green – Middle Eastern
The author does not classify light blue as European(south) because he cannot. Why?
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posted
What Xxyman, the forum's eccentric weirdo no one takes serious, is dreaming up:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Looking at the Pakistani group is a clear indication that light blue is North African and not Southern European.
What actual researchers say:
In a recent study, Behar and colleagues explored the genome-wide diversity of the Jewish Diaspora with regard to that of their host populations, as well as the Middle East [45]. In their supplemental figure four, results of analyses undertaken with the software ADMIXTURE are shown, and specifically at K=10, an ancestry component depicted in deep purple colour appears. Interestingly, its proportion is particularly high amongst Mozabite Berbers, who have very high frequencies of M1 and U6 . --Pennarun et al 2012
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: But I can analyze data.
That's not something you're supposed to say about yourself old man, where are the others who can say this about you? Face it, old geezer, your reputation on the forum is not one of analysing data. Its more like vandalizing other researcher's data to come to a distorted conclusion.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It pains you to no end that the Qatari, your ''pure'' Maghrebi and European components are all equidistant to each other, sharing mutual distances in between 0.050-0.060, doesn't it?
posted
Beyoku says: Southern Arabians are Southern Arabian. There are populations in Arabia that are African. Some recent, some ancient. From an OOA perspective the aboriginal population of Arabia which I assume would be the continuation of IJ* lineages and RO/N lineage are not "Africans". SOme of them may look like Africans but they are not Africans. The people on Socotra may look like Africans but they are not. Very little L lineages are found there....and Only 10% E - Lowest in all of Arabia.
^^At what point do SOuthern Arabians become southern Arabian? What's your parameter for making that definition?
And how do you define the aboriginal population of Arabia? Based on what time frame? Why would I/J or R/N lineages represent the "aboriginal" population of South Arabia, and not L lineages? Why would L be NOT "aboriginal"? Again what are your parameters for "aboriginal"? Are you saying they cannot be African and aboriginal at the same time? I am just trying to clarify what you mean.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Busy right now. So Sweetness and Lioness you have the floor. Go ahead and post out of context..He! He!
@ Beyoku. Let us to this in baby steps. Some of what you said went over my head. The fundamental question is ANCESTRY!!! Prove or point out where I am wrong.
You went on and on about how the data is process. I am focusing on the MEANING/interpretation of the data.
Based upon the author I am saying this...
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: For the record read the supplements:
Pg 16
Supplementary Note 4: Details of Structure-like Patterns Old World Analysis (Entire Sample Set)
Dark Brown – San/Pigmy Light Brown – Bantu Dark Blue – European (north and south) Dark Purple – Mazabite unoque. Light Purple – Arabian/Ethiopian Light Blue- North African Light green – Middle Eastern Dark Green – Middle Eastern
The author does not classify light blue as European(south) because he cannot. Why?
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posted
WTF are on about brother. Come on man, give it up. You lost this one again. Are you posting to increase your post count or what?
What is your point with this post?
I am saying light blue is North African. Beyoku says it Southern European. You say it is,,,,what?
Prove me wrong?
I case you don't get it you just agreed with me. Dark Purple is Mazab. I beleive Beyoku says it is the North african component. LOL! come on man, stay on the sidelines.Yyou will lose street cred if you keep this up. Go duel with the lunatic.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What Xxyman, the forum's eccentric weirdo no one takes serious, is dreaming up:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Looking at the Pakistani group is a clear indication that light blue is North African and not Southern European.
What actual researchers say:
In a recent study, Behar and colleagues explored the genome-wide diversity of the Jewish Diaspora with regard to that of their host populations, as well as the Middle East [45]. In their supplemental figure four, results of analyses undertaken with the software ADMIXTURE are shown, and specifically at K=10, an ancestry component depicted in deep purple colour appears. Interestingly, its proportion is particularly high amongst Mozabite Berbers, who have very high frequencies of M1 and U6 . --Pennarun et al 2012
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: But I can analyze data.
That's not something you're supposed to say about yourself old man, where are the others who can say this about you? Face it, old geezer, your reputation on the forum is not one of analysing data. Its more like vandalizing other researcher's data to come to a distorted conclusion.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It pains you to no end that the Qatari, your ''pure'' Maghrebi and European components are all equidistant to each other, sharing mutual distances in between 0.050-0.060, doesn't it?
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posted
Quote by another poster "And how do you define the aboriginal population of Arabia? "
It seems some of us can follow the discussion.
So help us here Beyoku. I am lost.
Are these representative of the aboriginal/indigenous population? -----
For the record read the supplements:
Pg 16
Supplementary Note 4: Details of Structure-like Patterns Old World Analysis (Entire Sample Set)
------ Dark Brown – San/Pigmy Light Brown – Bantu Dark Blue – European (north and south) Dark Purple – Mazabite unoque. Light Purple – Arabian/Ethiopian Light Blue- North African Light green – Middle Eastern Dark Green – Middle Eastern
The author does not classify light blue as European(south) because he cannot. Why?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am saying light blue is North African. Beyoku says it Southern European. You say it is,,,,what?
Don't drag me into this old man. I was just here to confirm for myself that you're not in your right mind. Besides, you've yet to cite a single source that's in agreement with the cuckoo idea that light blue is North African, but yet you somehow think its sensible to complement your unproven fairy tales with tuff talk buffoonery like ''prove me wrong'', ''prove me wrong''.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I case you don't get it you just agreed with me. Dark Purple is Mazab.
How can purple be Mozabite, old man? The authors (Pennarun et al) correlate dark purple with U6 and M1, are you saying that M1 and U6 in North Africans other than Mozabites is due to admixture with the latter?
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xyyman Quote by another poster "And how do you define the aboriginal population of Arabia? "
It seems some of us can follow the discussion.
So help us here Beyoku. I am lost. ---------------------------------------
^^ Yea I just need clarification on that- at what point do Africans become non-aboriginal?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am saying light blue is North African. Beyoku says it Southern European. You say it is,,,,what?
Don't drag me into this old man. I was just here to confirm for myself that you're not in your right mind. Besides, you've yet to cite a single source that's in agreement with the cuckoo idea that light blue is North African, but yet you somehow think its sensible to complement your unproven fairy tales with tuff talk buffoonery like ''prove me wrong'', ''prove me wrong''.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I case you don't get it you just agreed with me. Dark Purple is Mazab.
How can purple be Mozabite, old man? The authors (Pennarun et al) correlate dark purple with U6 and M1, are you saying that M1 and U6 in North Africans other than Mozabites is due to admixture with the latter?
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Whenever you are up to it. All that you mention below sounds impressive. I simplified it for others. At least I thought I did. I say light blue component is North African and not Southern European. Educate us. I don't understand. I have never run 100s of test.
I repeat.
For the record read the supplements:
Pg 16
Supplementary Note 4: Details of Structure-like Patterns Old World Analysis (Entire Sample Set)
Dark Brown – San/Pigmy Light Brown – Bantu Dark Blue – European (north and south) Dark Purple – Mazabite unique. Light Purple – Arabian/Ethiopian Light Blue- North African Light green – Middle Eastern Dark Green – Middle Eastern
The author does not classify light blue as European(south) because he cannot. Why?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Beyoku – to clarify. I interchangeable use dark purple and purple. I did not include light purple in my analysis. Looking at the Pakistani group is a clear indication that light blue is North African and not Southern European. Because the SSA components proportionally shows up in these Pakistani groups. The same pattern is seen with ALL the Jewish groups globally. Including Yemeni and Indian/Pakistani. Ie African (SSA and Saharan) SNPs as a proportional “block” at all k-clusters
Sigh....I dont even know where to start. You are going to have to be familiar with the STRUCTURE and ADMIXTURE applications to know what is going on. You are not familiar with these applications that is why you are making mistakes interpreting the data. You are going to have to see other ADMIXTURE runs where they use some of this same data. Mozabite are somewhat inbred BUT when right along with other North African groups they are not inbred to the first cousin level to create their own artificial cluster. THe Mozabite were usually on par with Maghreb ancestry as southern Moroccans and Saharawi - This is data that has been proven PRIOR to the introduction of the Tunisian data set.
Purple does not show up at K=9. It shows up at K=10 and peaks in the Mozabite. The "Light Purple" component that materializes at K=9 is more descriptive of some kind of South WEST Asian ancestry...It peaks in Yemenis, Saudis and Ethiopians. Getting into the details. If you want to say that the purple is NOT Maghreb and is something else.....then Mozabite and Moroccans have VERY LITTLE NORTHWEST AFRICAN ANCESTRY! Moroccan JEWS have more North West African ancestry than Moroccans! Romainians and Hungarians have MORE North West African ancestry than the North West Africans in the study. This makes no sense.....If that light blue you see peaking at K=10 in Sardinia = Maghreb ancestry then most of the people carrying that Ancestry are more BERBER than the BERBERS in the study. Can you understand this? In this program, once a new K is materialized, everything gets shuffled around.
I am fimiliar enough with the program and its uses to have seen the Mozabite and other North Africans in these exercises probably HUNDREDS of times. I have analyzed me OWN ancestry using these programs.
@Troll Patrol - Southern Arabians are Southern Arabian. There are populations in Arabia that are African. Some recent, some ancient. From an OOA perspective the aboriginal population of Arabia which I assume would be the continuation of IJ* lineages and RO/N lineage are not "Africans". SOme of them may look like Africans but they are not Africans. The people on Socotra may look like Africans but they are not. Very little L lineages are found there....and Only 10% E - Lowest in all of Arabia.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am saying light blue is North African. Beyoku says it Southern European. You say it is,,,,what?
Don't drag me into this old man. I was just here to confirm for myself that you're not in your right mind. Besides, you've yet to cite a single source that's in agreement with the cuckoo idea that light blue is North African, but yet you somehow think its sensible to complement your unproven fairy tales with tuff talk buffoonery like ''prove me wrong'', ''prove me wrong''.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I case you don't get it you just agreed with me. Dark Purple is Mazab.
How can purple be Mozabite, old man? The authors (Pennarun et al) correlate dark purple with U6 and M1, are you saying that M1 and U6 in North Africans other than Mozabites is due to admixture with the latter?
Say no more. I understand gramps, don't worry, I understand.
posted
Ignoring the entertainment above, brother doesn’t realize he agrees with me, anyways, and while we wait on Beyoku to get back to us. Let me continue.…
From Kivilsld
[[[In a recent study, Behar and colleagues explored the genome-wide diversity of the Jewish Diaspora with regard to that of their host populations, as well as the Middle East [45]. In their supplemental figure four, results of analyses undertaken with the software ADMIXTURE are shown, and specifically at K=10, an ancestry component depicted in deep purple colour appears. Interestingly, its proportion is particularly high amongst Mozabite Berbers, who have very high frequencies of M1 and U6 [12]. This deep purple colour is also present at a fairly high frequency amongst Moroccans, and to a lesser extent amongst Ethiopians, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and Egyptians. Its proportion in the Near Eastern populations is by far smaller than in the African ones]]]
From Behar, cited by Kivilsld(supplemtal fig 4 is what was posted.
[[[light green component among the latter, while dominant in the Middle Eastern and Indus Valley population It is noteworthy that this component is virtually absent among the two West European genetic outlier populations - in the French Basque and Sardinians. On the other hand, Moroccan Jews differ from their host population (Moroccan Berbers and Arabs) not only because of the presence of the dominant sub-Saharan African component in the latter, but also because the host populations (e.g., Mozabites) lack the light green component. Moreover, when at K=10 the Moroccans acquire a substantial share of the novel dark violet component, then in the Moroccan Jewish]]]
From Henn
[[[[On the Levant. It is interesting to note that this ancestry is not represented in European individuals. Jewish ancestry appears to be less than 2% or absent in most populations, with the exception of one Swiss Italian. At k=6, a component corresponding largely to North Africa appears, except for the Tunisians who are ~100% assigned to their own component, likely due to strong endogamy (5). The differentiation of Tunisians reduces the genetic similarity between Near Easterners and North Africans when comparing their ancestry assignments at k=5 and k=6. The Basques have the lowest proportion, only 4% is assigned North African ancestry]]]]
To those who can follow. The color code may be confusing eg in Behar study Europeans are Dark Blue. Henn uses a different color code. You need to read the study and/or supplementals to know what the color represents. Notice in Henn’s Europeans are not Dark Blue.
Beyoku am I on the wrong path?
Both Henn and Behar observed “unique/novel” markers in their independent studies. Maybe Tunisians and Mazabs are the same. Someone can help me out here? I am just going by the charts.
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Looking at all 3 studies on the Jewish people I am beginning to question the origin of Jewry.
The seems to be a consistent pattern to people who claim Jewish anestry irregardless to where they inhabit. The pattern is the same in East Africa, North Africa, Europe and India/Pakistan. I am beginning to doubt Jewry as a LEVANT religion or custom. Anyone knows why?
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beyoku how can I sneak back on anthroscape ? I had no warning they didn't follow protocol Then I got banned. I want to at least be able to read threads there. I did an appeal email and got no reply.
toiletman called me an afrocentric spammer and right after that I got banned. All I did was post some stuff on ethnic groups in ancient Egypt and some articles about Hitler's food taster, etc How can five percenter be on there and not me?
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@ xyyman - Dude you are all over the place. The argument you are attempting to make is not even clear. You have not explained CLEARLY why you still consider that component North African when it is not the highest component in North Africans.
For a clearer picture go ahead and see the article here:
You can see clearly at K=9 the Light blue compoenent peaks in Saudis and Bedouin. Moroccans and Mozabites are practically the same. One that supplemental there is also Y-dna and Mtdna at the bottom. As for K=10 the supplemental says this:
quote: . Moreover, when at K=10 the Moroccans acquire a substantial share of the novel dark violet component, then in the Moroccan Jewish component palette it reaches only approximately 10%. These non-Jewish populations, as well as Mozabite Berbers, possess significant levels of the predominantly European dark blue component, which is much less pronounced among the Levantine, Arabian Peninsula, and South Caucasus populations (Fig. 3). However, this component is absent in Yemenite Jews – the main characteristic that distinguishes them from all other West Eurasian and North African Jews. Jews from Iran and Iraq appear to be very similar to each other throughout the succession of K values
Also take note on page 18:
quote: The main difference of Moroccan, Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews from Levantine populations is a higher proportion of the component otherwise predominant in (Mediterranean) West Europe, which comprises as much as approximately 90% of the "palette” of the Sardinians, for example
Or here (Notice the Maghreb Ancestry........Only in this case does the imbred nature of Mozabites show its head. Berber ancestry (Maroon) still has a declining range for the Saharawi to to Egypt and the Horn. You can compare the Dark purple in Behar et al to the Maroon color here. Is it sinking in yet?): http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com/2012/03/afrasans-in-genome-wide-context.html
I could keep going but let me know if you notice any trends with Ethiopian/Maghreb/Southern Europe/South West Asia. If you want to get really hardcore you can dowload the program and the exact same datasets the geneticsts use and run in on your own computer. Now go back and take a look at Behar and see if you reconsider the components.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Seems like we are reading the same KEY piece of information and intepreting it differently. I don't visit those other blogs/sites. You are using other blogs/sites to comeup with your view.
I am going STRICTLY by the information presented researcher authoring. Blogs are usually written by people like me, ...just intrepreting the paper.
I will revisit the supplement yet again. But you still haven't answered by question on the OTHER color code. Seems were disagree on Dark Purple and the light blue for the Behar paper.
So we can proceed. Are we agreeing on the rest?
Xyyman Quote:
"From Kivilsld
[[[In a recent study, Behar and colleagues explored the genome-wide diversity of the Jewish Diaspora with regard to that of their host populations, as well as the Middle East [45]. In their supplemental figure four, results of analyses undertaken with the software ADMIXTURE are shown, and specifically at K=10, an ancestry component depicted in deep purple colour appears. Interestingly, its proportion is particularly high amongst Mozabite Berbers, who have very high frequencies of M1 and U6 [12]. This deep purple colour is also present at a fairly high frequency amongst Moroccans, and to a lesser extent amongst Ethiopians, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and Egyptians. Its proportion in the Near Eastern populations is by far smaller than in the African ones]]]
Beyoku Quote: [[You can see clearly at K=9 the Light blue compoenent peaks in Saudis and Bedouin. Moroccans and Mozabites are practically the same. One that supplemental there is also Y-dna and Mtdna at the bottom. As for K=10 the supplemental says this:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . Moreover, when at K=10 the Moroccans acquire a substantial share of the novel dark violet component, then in the Moroccan Jewish component palette it reaches only approximately 10%. These non-Jewish populations, as well as Mozabite Berbers, possess significant levels of the predominantly European dark blue component, which is much less pronounced among the Levantine, Arabian Peninsula, and South Caucasus populations (Fig. 3). However, this component is absent in Yemenite Jews – the main characteristic that distinguishes them from all other West Eurasian and North African Jews. Jews from Iran and Iraq appear to be very similar to each other throughout the succession of K values -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ]]]
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posted
Behar clearly states that Dark Blue is European and Dark Green is Middle Eastern. He did not state what the light blue represent. You assume it is "southern European" based upon..your visits to other sites and your 100s of analysis.
I say it is North African.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^ The Blog sites are using the same population references that the geneticists are using. You can download the program and use the genetic references because they are readily released to the public to do so. I am basing my interpretation off the experience of seeing the program and seeing the same data sets used over and over and over.
IN the quote you posted they are TELLING you that the Dark Purple is North African. The Mozabite carry it at very high frequency because they are somewhat imbred. But there are NOT 2 separate North African clusters in this case. Although this does not ALWAYS work, one of the main ways in looking at the components it so see what populations carries it the highest. That component is then somewhat very indicative of their ancestry. ^ See above (Jerba Island Image)with the RED Cluster being Sub Saharan African...and the LIGHT GREEN being Arabian.
Take notice that That Dark purple comprises nearly HALF of the Moroccans ancestry, and most of the Mozabite. USE SOME LOGIC PLEASE.
If that light blue component is North West African - Why are Egyptians MORE North West African that Moroccans? Not only Egyptians but Saudies, Yemenis, Moroccan Jews, Palestinians, Druze, Jordanians, Samaritans, Turks, Armenians, Iranians, Georgians, All the Jews, French Basqus, French, Spaniards, Tuscans, Cypriots, Romanians, Hungarians, etc ARE ALL MORE NORTH AFRICAN THAN MOROCCANS AND MOZABITE BERBERS. You dont find something WRONG with that interpretation?
The characteristic features of Maghreb Berbers being M1,U6,M81,M2,M33,L3k, and Various West African maternal markers are Terminated when you get to the Levant. How can these populations be MORE Berber than the Mahgreb Berbers....double and 3 times as much and have ZERO in common with the diagnostic uni-parental signature of Berbers?
IN k=10 the Light green is a Generic widespread West Asian (Think Caucus) In K=10 the Light Blue is a Generic Southern Mediterranean/European. THis component almost always peaks in Sardinians.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
So, as I said, we disagree on the dark purple and light blue. I will check out those other reputable sites. You are basing this on patterns you have seen at in the past. I am tsuck on key words used by the author eg "novel" components seen in Tunisians and Mazab. Behar did not distinguish Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans.
There is no mention of light blue being Southern European. Irregardless if that is the case, the pattern is consistent with migration through Sardinia as I have being saying all along and not the Middle East.
Quote: [[[In K=10 the Light Blue is a Generic Southern Mediterranean/European. THis component almost ALWAYS PEAKS in Sardinians.]]]
Quote XYYMAN:
[[[[[For the record read the supplements:
Pg 16
Supplementary Note 4: Details of Structure-like Patterns Old World Analysis (Entire Sample Set)
------ Dark Brown – San/Pigmy Light Brown – Bantu Dark Blue – European (north and south) Dark Purple – Mazabite unoque. Light Purple – Arabian/Ethiopian Light Blue- North African Light green – Middle Eastern Dark Green – Middle Eastern]]]]
Quote
[[[[IN k=10 the Light green is a Generic widespread West Asian (Think Caucus)
In K=10 the Light Blue is a Generic Southern Mediterranean/European. THis component almost always peaks in Sardinians.
IN the quote you posted they are TELLING you that the Dark Purple is North African]]]
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posted
^ Sardinia is an Island....what are you talking about. How can Maghreb ancestry INCREASE from West to East with the reduction of M81,U6, M2 et al.?
quote: If that light blue component is North West African - Why are Egyptians MORE North West African that Moroccans? Not only Egyptians but Saudies, Yemenis, Moroccan Jews, Palestinians, Druze, Jordanians, Samaritans, Turks, Armenians, Iranians, Georgians, All the Jews, French Basqus, French, Spaniards, Tuscans, Cypriots, Romanians, Hungarians, etc ARE ALL MORE NORTH AFRICAN THAN MOROCCANS AND MOZABITE BERBERS. You dont find something WRONG with that interpretation?
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Lioness can you summarize? You seem to clearly understand although you disagree.
I thought I made it clear. Most European genes, if not all are African. Migration through North Africa to Europe using the connecting points(Sardinia/Iberia/Crete...Anatolia as suggested by Sergi, Evans, Smith, Henn/ XYYMAN etc....
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ Sardinia is an Island........ How can Maghreb ancestry ......
[/QUOTE]
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posted
I hope you are not BSing. I can sniff that out. I gave you cred as a stand up guy. I never said light blue is North West African. I said light blue is NORTH AFRICAN.
Behar carefully avoided assigning light blue. which I find suspicious.
He assigned many others eg Dark Blue European(not North European). Dark Green Middle East region etc
YOU are the one who stated that light blue is Southern European...based upon...the software you have used in the past.
I never mentioned M1, U6 in that context. When someone starts "mealy mouthing" I become suspicious. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
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posted
That is why you mess with you Lioness. Maybe I missed it ...are you stating that this chrat represents ony Tunisians from Djerba Island? That the researchers chose to sample ONLY the people from Djerba Island.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
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posted
BTW - I am still confuse on what your views are. I understand you think light blue is Southern European, which I disagree with., But are you suggesting as far mirgration, you disagree with Henn.
I am trying to re-collect what this lengthy discussion was all about. Are saying the migration was from Southern Europe to North Africa and from Arabia to North Africa. For the record.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
@ TP. Finally got a chance to check these out. Outstanding Reasearch as always..
This is exaxtly what I visualize southern Arabians look should look like. Very similar to indigenous North Africans.
I need to download some of these.
Middle East Centre Archive
Freya Stark ****South Arabia ****Photo Gallery
Dame Freya Stark (1893-1993) was a famous traveller, author and photographer. The images in this gallery represent a small selection from the extensive Freya Stark Collection GB165-0519, showing images of South Arabia (modern day Yemen) taken during 1934-1935
As Mike would say. These are not Turks.
Obviously the uniparental male marker is E1b1b1*.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: OK, what exactly is xxyman arguing here? Is he claiming that modern Southern Arabians are all essentially African from a genetic standpoint? Has he even seen photos of most South Arabians on Google image search?
Also, his argument that the Islamic conquest of North Africa entailed no demographic movements, haplogroup J notwithstanding, is a talking point you usually see coming from the Eurocentric camp. It seems out of character for him.
By far the most African lineages in Arabia are recent and have Bantu and/or Nilotic signatures. The people that are listed above don't even look like these groups and they do not primary derive their dark skin from Africans. Its just as bizarre as saying light skinned Middle Easterners are Europeans or that some Africans with a few Indian lineages derive their dark skin from Indians. Stop degrading Egyptsearch with this lame ass ethno-centric pseudo-science, gramps.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] That is why you mess with you Lioness. Maybe I missed it ...are you stating that this chrat represents only Tunisians from Djerba Island? That the researchers chose to sample ONLY the people from Djerba Island?
There are many more berbers in Morocco, Algeria and Libya. In Tunisia they are mainly on Djerba island along with some Jews Arabs and Catholics., total pop 140,000. There are also berbers in small villages in Chenini-Douret, Guellala and Tozeur. Poulation of Tunisia is 10.6 mill The total berber population is 90-500,000 Tunisians in general have a mixture of Arab and berber ancestry.
Do you know anything about the history of Tunisia? The Arabs were not the first foreigners At it's height Carthage had 500,000 people. The Phoenicians marched into Tunisia around 1100 BC, establishing their capital, Carthage (just north of today’s Tunis), as the main power in the western Mediterranean by the 6th century. The emerging Roman Empire was not happy with these events, and 128 years of Punic Wars ensued. The legendary general of Carthage, Hannibal, nearly conquered the Romans after his invasion of Italy in 216 BC, but the Romans finally won, razed Carthage, sold its population for slaves and then re-created it as a Roman city in 44 BC. Roman Tunisia boomed, creating the temple-decked city of Dougga and the extravagant El Jem colosseum. The Roman decline and fall in the 5th century was followed by the rampaging Vandals, who saw their opportunity and captured Carthage in 439. Unhappy with the nihilistic rule of the Vandals, the local Berber population formed small kingdoms and rebelled, but both groups were conquered, and the Vandals ousted by the approaching Byzantines in 533. In the 7th century the Arabs arrived from the east, bringing Islam with them. Despite continuous Berber belligerence, the Arabs ruled Tunisia until the 16th century, leaving behind the strongest ongoing cultural impact of all of Tunisia’s invaders. Stuck between the Spanish Reconquistas and the powerful Ottoman empire, Tunisia became an outpost of the Ottomans until France began to gain ground in the region during the 19th century. Establishing their rule in 1881, the French proceeded to spend the next 50 years attempting to transform Tunisia into a European-style nation.
__________________________________________
The amount of berber the average Tuniaian has is debatable. This thread is about the Maghreb in general. Therfore you should find articles on Tunisian genetics that aren't specific to berbers
This discussion on Mozabites relates to a classis lioness thread entitled
Mozabite Berbers are 80% African, doc says
(doc = Doctoris Scientia, doc had saod how Tishkoff's article: The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans > show Mozabites are 80% African. note: I wrote the first post but the pictures in it came from Doctoris Scientia who had also discussed the topic on anthroscape)
and in this thread a similar dispute as to what blue means in the pie charts
and xyyman proposes modern Maghrebians are more African than modern Egyptians
quote:Originally posted by beyoku ozabite are somewhat inbred BUT when right along with other North African groups they are not inbred to the first cousin level to create their own artificial cluster. THe Mozabite were usually on par with Maghreb ancestry as southern Moroccans and Saharawi - This is data that has been proven PRIOR to the introduction of the Tunisian data set.
this concept about "inbredness" thus producing an " artificial cluster" would need to be explained.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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You are still lurking?...Ha! Ha! come on man. Go dick fight with the lunatic.
WTF are you talking about? What's your point? Repeatedly read your statement a few times.
I have no idea what your argument is. Your are becoming irritating.
1.[[[ By far the most African lineages in Arabia are recent and have Bantu and/or Nilotic signatures ]]]- strawman.
2. [[The people that are listed above don't even look like these groups and they do not primary derive their dark skin from Africans]]]. Strawman. I never said they got their dark skin from Africans. They occupy the same geographic latitude and condition. I always argued that. Right Lioness? That is why I believe there are black Persians also.
Le me ask you this. Are you a Troll??
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posted
Granted you have read more books than me on the history of the region. But can process information better than most.
But you still haven't answered my question.
Was the sample taken only from Djerba as you implied? Stop BSing. And I wouldn't get in your head.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] That is why you mess with you Lioness. Maybe I missed it ...are you stating that this chrat represents only Tunisians from Djerba Island? That the researchers chose to sample ONLY the people from Djerba Island?
There are many more berbers in Morocco, Algeria and Libya. In Tunisia they are mainly on Djerba island along with some Jews Arabs and Catholics., total pop 140,000. There are also berbers in small villages in Chenini-Douret, Guellala and Tozeur. Poulation of Tunisia is 10.6 mill The total berber population is 90-500,000 Tunisians in general have a mixture of Arab and berber ancestry.
Do you know anything about the history of Tunisia? The Arabs were not the first foreigners At it's height Carthage had 500,000 people. The Phoenicians marched into Tunisia around 1100 BC, establishing their capital, Carthage (just north of today’s Tunis), as the main power in the western Mediterranean by the 6th century. The emerging Roman Empire was not happy with these events, and 128 years of Punic Wars ensued. The legendary general of Carthage, Hannibal, nearly conquered the Romans after his invasion of Italy in 216 BC, but the Romans finally won, razed Carthage, sold its population for slaves and then re-created it as a Roman city in 44 BC. Roman Tunisia boomed, creating the temple-decked city of Dougga and the extravagant El Jem colosseum. The Roman decline and fall in the 5th century was followed by the rampaging Vandals, who saw their opportunity and captured Carthage in 439. Unhappy with the nihilistic rule of the Vandals, the local Berber population formed small kingdoms and rebelled, but both groups were conquered, and the Vandals ousted by the approaching Byzantines in 533. In the 7th century the Arabs arrived from the east, bringing Islam with them. Despite continuous Berber belligerence, the Arabs ruled Tunisia until the 16th century, leaving behind the strongest ongoing cultural impact of all of Tunisia’s invaders. Stuck between the Spanish Reconquistas and the powerful Ottoman empire, Tunisia became an outpost of the Ottomans until France began to gain ground in the region during the 19th century. Establishing their rule in 1881, the French proceeded to spend the next 50 years attempting to transform Tunisia into a European-style nation.
__________________________________________
The amount of berber the average Tuniaian has is debatable. This thread is about the Maghreb in general. Therfore you should find articles on Tunisian genetics that aren't specific to berbers
quote:Originally posted by beyoku ozabite are somewhat inbred BUT when right along with other North African groups they are not inbred to the first cousin level to create their own artificial cluster. THe Mozabite were usually on par with Maghreb ancestry as southern Moroccans and Saharawi - This is data that has been proven PRIOR to the introduction of the Tunisian data set.
this concept about "inbredness" thus producing an " artificial cluster" would need to be explained.
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posted
^Gramps, just because I leave right after calling you out for fabricating your way around the forum doesn't mean I won't call you out again when I see you making another garbage claim.
Le me ask you this. Are you a liar... or just a demented old man who needs to be repeatedly held by hand and shown which one of your bizarre claim was laid to rest, this time?
quote: Originally posted by xyyman: This guy is labeled Wadi Hadhramaut !!!!! We know they are clssified as SSA.
quote: Originally posted by xyyman: South Arabians are essentially Africans. Now we have three independent sources basically concluding the same thing. South Arabia is an extension of Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^This is what pseudo-science looks like.
By far the most African lineages in Arabia are recent and have Bantu and/or Nilotic signatures. The people that are listed above don't even look like these groups and they do not primary derive their dark skin from Africans. Its just as bizarre as saying light skinned Middle Easterners are Europeans or that some Africans with a few Indian lineages derive their dark skin from Indians. Stop degrading Egyptsearch with this lame ass ethno-centric pseudo-science, gramps.
posted
I agree with the statement Mozabite are >80% African. I read what Beyoku is saying and I twist and examined his statement every which way. I have to say it is BS!!! I will show you why. Light blue is North african. Using logic.
Lioness you hit on the head without realizing it. Light blue CANNOT be Southern Europe. It is North African. To start, look at the proportion of colors with Mazab. Light blue, Brown and Dark Blue and every K-cluster. Assuming light blue and brown is African. That correlates exactly with Doc/Lioness statement. Correlates with DNATribes etc. If light blue was European the statement would not hold true.
I did that for almost every group and it matches with DNATribes.
Hate to say it Beyoku....Not on this one. Will C&C shortly to make it "clearer".
Quote by Lioness: [[This discussion on Mozabites relates to a classis lioness thread entitled
Mozabite Berbers are 80% African, doc says
(doc = Doctoris Scientia, doc had saod how Tishkoff's article: The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans > show Mozabites are 80% African. note: I wrote the first post but the pictures in it came from Doctoris Scientia who had also discussed the topic on anthroscape)
and in this thread a similar dispute as to what blue means in the pie charts
and xyyman proposes modern Maghrebians are more African than modern Egyptians]]
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Thanks Lioness: And I am not a Dr. Could of been though He! He!
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Doctoris said: The blue among the Mozabite, like you already mentioned, is of mixed origin, unlike the Dogon or the Beja. Meaning they possess both ancestral indigenous African Saharan and more recent non-African admixture. But than again the ancestral African admixture forms the majority of the "blue" found among the Mozabite, +/-30%, with the recent non-African blue forming the minority, +/-20%. Mozabite are therefore 40% African minus the "Saharan/Dogon" ancestry, 40% African "Saharan/Dogon", and only 20% non-African. Therefore tearing apart any theory that Berber/Arab North Africans, while receiving limited non-African admixture, for the most part are indigenous Africans, i.e. not "Caucasoid", genetically related to other Africans.
OK fair enough. It is a good approach to take- breaking down the color coding. I have seen some on the web try to twist it into some sort of vague "Eurasian" grouping.
Right. Even when the study itself points out the multi-origins of the "blue" colour characterized in the groupings of ancestral groups. This study, while some may deny it, is a nightmare for Eurocentrics, not only does it debunk massive admixture among most East and North African populations, it proposes significant gene-flow from Africa into "Western Eurasia".
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Has he even seen photos of most South Arabians on Google image search?![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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