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Despite supposedly having the same amount of so called "Eurasian" mixture, Somalis are darker with wavy/curly hair, but Ethiopians are lighter with a higher incidence of kinky/spiral hair. I guess "Eurasian" mixture supposedly works differently on both of them, right? Or what do yall think accounts for this difference?
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Somalis have less Eurasian, but also less Sub-Saharan and more (insert non-SSA component [Natufian-like, Ethiosomali, take your pick]) than Ethiopians.
This IAC is colored dark green on the figure and is referenced here as “Ethio-Somali”. This Ethio-Somali IAC is found at its highest frequencies in Cushitic speaking Somali populations and at high frequencies in neighboring Cushitic and Semitic speaking Afar, Amhara, Oromo, and Tygray populations. This IAC was not identified in the source study for the HOA SNP data [16], but Tishkoff and colleagues [59], in an analysis of an independent autosomal microsatellite dataset, did recover an equivalent IAC (calling it “Cushitic”). While this Ethio-Somali IAC is found primarily in Africa, it has clear non-African affinities (Text S1). Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa (2014) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055572/
Should not be a mystery in 2023 after countless discussions on African components that are neither SSA nor Eurasian.
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^ Right. It should be apparent by now that the 'Sub-Saharan vs. Eurasian' is a FALSE dialectic. Both Africa and Eurasia are too diverse to make such ridiculous reductionist assumptions. The idea that Eurasia means "caucasoid" features for example is hilarious considering that black skinned, spiral haired Andamanese are more (pristine) Eurasians compared to African admixed Western Eurasians. Even the label Sub-Saharan is a misnomer since both Hadza and southernmost Khoisan also lack this marker most label as "Sub-Saharan".
But as Lioness pointed out Ethiopians, and Eritreans especially have much higher percentages of actual Eurasian admixture than Somalis yet the former not only being lighter skinned have higher incidence of kinky hair while the latter while darker have loose wavy hair. Which again shows that such traits are not associated with one ancestry over another.
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IF you look at the original Herto paper (not the media coverage, but the actual paper) you will see the report includes photographs of the remains of a young boy that anthropologists generally don't talk about (presumably because it looks much more 'modern' than Herto Man at this early date of 160ky, a discrepancy that is too much for their confirmation bias to handle). But you can already see the extreme difference at that Herto site at 160ky ago, as the boy's skull cap looks much more like UP Europeans, possibly presenting an even better morphological 'bridge' to OOA populations than Hofmyer. Although this hasn't been clarified yet with multivariate analysis.
Though this diversity at Herto obviously doesn't exist anymore in Ethiopia, this still shows that Omotic, Cushitic and Nilo-Saharan physical distinctiveness had its own parallels in the Palaeolithic. Remove the Eurasian ancestry from Ethiopia and you're still left with Africans showing tendencies towards different populations, African and non-African.
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^ I think I remember seeing something like that in the subsequent reports on the Herto site, but I recall the explanation (excuse) made that due to the young age of the remains conclusions cannot be made since the features are paedomorphic while adult features are more reliable.
What do you think of the craniometric data by language grouping from Parahu?
Craniometric chart from Froment 1998 showing generalized speakers from different language groups
Ike & Hayama 1982
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But as Lioness pointed out Ethiopians, and Eritreans especially have much higher percentages of actual Eurasian admixture than Somalis yet the former not only being lighter skinned have higher incidence of kinky hair while the latter while darker have loose wavy hair. Which again shows that such traits are not associated with one ancestry over another.
I only pointed out the percentage of haplogroup J in Ethiopia is said to be around 30% and the have more separate ethnic groups than Somalia. Not this other stuff about one country over the other having lighter skin or kinky hair. We should not be assuming these phenotypical claims without some kind of statistical data
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ I think I remember seeing something like that in the subsequent reports on the Herto site, but I recall the explanation (excuse) made that due to the young age of the remains conclusions cannot be made since the features are paedomorphic while adult features are more reliable
Must have been a rare report then, because there is almost no discussion on this child in the literature. Almost everything in the literature focuses on the adult Herto male. As a result the photographs of child's remains are far more difficult to find than the photographs of the adult male, even though both photographs come from the same paper. This is what it was like when I looked into this years ago. Situation might have improved in google, but I doubt it, because I know why it's like this in the first place.
quote:What do you think of the craniometric data by language grouping from Parahu?
Although I have not read any of Froment's work, I like the other Froment graph better than this one. IMO the most successful morphometric studies have the first axis documenting most of the African vs Eurasian variations, as shown in the Froment graph I've just linked to. The Froment graph you've posted, on the other hand, has some populations cluster in a big group. IMO such analyses come out like that because they typically fail to capture most of the morphological variation.
An example of the former is that Froment paper on Egyptians, while an example of the latter is Sereno. This is what Sereno et al have to say about most of their Palaeolithic samples forming a big cluster:
quote:
Three of the loadings from the principal components analysis returned eigenvalues greater than 1.0 (Table 7). Factor loadings transparently reflect anatomical or functional units. The first principal component appears to most closely approximate a size vector, but the loadings are not uniformly positive. The pattern of positive and negative loadings for principal components 2 and 3 are not interpretable.
In other words, the first axis relates to large cranial size. Palaeolithic populations are generally larger than holocene populations. We see mainly differentiation between large Upper Palaeolithics, and the even larger Aterians, but it's based on size. So, the Palaeolithic populatons for whatever reason were not properly differentiated according to their actual population affinity. If they were, the Kiffians (negroid) would have been apart from the Iberomaurusians (e.g. Taza I negroid, Taforalt & Afalou generally not negroid). Something similar (failure to capture some of the population affinity) may have happened with the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers in your Froment graph.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Must have been a rare report then, because there is almost no discussion on this child in the literature. Almost everything in the literature focuses on the adult Herto male. As a result the photographs of child's remains are far more difficult to find than the photographs of the adult male, even though both photographs come from the same paper. This is what it was like when I looked into this years ago. Situation might have improved in google, but I doubt it, because I know why it's like this in the first place.
I'm trying to find the paper I read years back when I was in high school, but I can only find recent papers like these:
African paleoanthropology has long been influenced by eurocentricframes of reference in geology, paleontology, and archaeology. Indeed, the “Middle Stone Age” of Africa is often equated with the “Middle Pale-olithic” as defined and manifested in Europe. Even the ill-defined “Homo heidelbergensis” is still applied to African fossils. More broadly, notions that technological “cultures” arose unilineally via “transitions” persist among Paleolithic archaeologists. On the other hand, and ironically, the strict application of cladistic classification disallows nomenclatural recognition of phyletic evolution along evolving species lineages. Combined with an under-appreciation of intraspecific skeletal variation, the approach has produced species inflation and a consequently confusing jungle of phylogenetic diagrams and labels applied to hominid fossils of all antiquities (White 2009, 2014). Scerri et al. represent a recent manifestation of this when they write of “...morphologically varied populations pertaining to the H. sapiens clade” living “throughout Africa”(2018: 582). Left unspecified is what they mean by “pertaining to.” The inability of rigid biological classificatory labels to adequately express dynamic change continues to plague the depiction and under-standing of how our species lineage evolved through the Middle Pleistocene. However convenient static Linnean labels may be to claims about the “earliest” whatever taxon, such labels often work in opposition to expressing and understanding the mode and tempo of evolutionary change (White 2000, 2009, 2014).
For example, in biological anthropology a classificatory scheme based exclusively on branching speciation (cladistic classification, see below) would identify Homo sapiens based on an inferred “Homo sapiens clade” that reaches back >500,000 years ago, to a point at which African (Homo sapiens) and European (Homo neanderthalensis) biological species lineages diverged (apparently with minor subsequent introgression between them). In this scheme, anatomies as disparate as Bodo and Herto must both be classified cladistically as Homo sapiens.
Others adopt an anatomical approach, classifying as Homo sapiens only those fossils that display a specific suite of derived anatomical characters shared exclusively with anatomically modern humans. We prefer the latter approach, and nomenclaturally recognize those fossils (such as Bodo) interpreted to be the direct lineal ancestors of Homo sapiens as different chrono species, pending finer resolution of the paleontological record.
quote:Although I have not read any of Froment's work, I like the other Froment graph better than this one. IMO the most successful morphometric studies have the first axis documenting most of the African vs Eurasian variations, as shown in the Froment graph I've just linked to. The Froment graph you've posted, on the other hand, has some populations cluster in a big group. IMO such analyses come out like that because they typically fail to capture most of the morphological variation.
Yes I agree that his ancient Nile Valley graph is more clear cut and not as sloppy as his language grouping one.
quote:An example of the former is that Froment paper on Egyptians, while an example of the latter is Sereno. This is what Sereno et al have to say about most of their Palaeolithic samples forming a big cluster:
quote:
Three of the loadings from the principal components analysis returned eigenvalues greater than 1.0 (Table 7). Factor loadings transparently reflect anatomical or functional units. The first principal component appears to most closely approximate a size vector, but the loadings are not uniformly positive. The pattern of positive and negative loadings for principal components 2 and 3 are not interpretable.
In other words, the first axis relates to large cranial size. Palaeolithic populations are generally larger than Holocene populations. We see mainly differentiation between large Upper Palaeolithics, and the even larger Aterians, but it's based on size. So, the Paleolithic populations for whatever reason were not properly differentiated according to their actual population affinity. If they were, the Kiffians (negroid) would have been apart from the Iberomaurusians (e.g. Taza I negroid, Taforalt & Afalou generally not negroid). Something similar (failure to capture some of the population affinity) may have happened with the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers in your Froment graph.
Yes, I concur but do you agree with the general idea that Niger-Congo speakers and (southern)Nilo-Saharan speakers tend to cluster together metrically while northern (Nubian) Nilo-Saharans, Afroasiatics and some Niger-Congo (Tutsi) speakers cluster together?
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^Did you notice that your paper has the Herto boy with recent humans, while the Herto adult is with so-called 'archaics'? That's exactly the evidence I wanted to see confirmed (see my second post where I said I'm waiting for clarification).
Will have to go over it closely, to make sure I get everything from it. I also want to see if they elaborate on this massive morphological distance between these two Herto fossils and the fact that this means that adult Herto isn't in our lineage, at all. (imagine if Oase I is not ancestral to later Europeans/Eurasians, how far removed Herto must be given how similar he looks to the photographs of Kabwe in the 2003 White et al paper. [In the White et al paper the Herto adult, to me, looks like a cross/hybrid between the photographs of Qafzeh 9 and Kabwe, while Herto boy looks like neither and closer to us living humans]).
quote:Yes, I concur but do you agree with the general idea that Niger-Congo speakers and (southern)Nilo-Saharan speakers tend to cluster together metrically while northern (Nubian) Nilo-Saharans, Afroasiatics and some Niger-Congo (Tutsi) speakers cluster together?
The way I see it, some groups out of the language groups you mention, are the most distinctive (physically) out of the other members in their language groups. Nilotes are the most distinctive out of Nilo-Saharans, southern African Bantu speakers are the most distinctive out of Bantu speakers in certain ways, and so on. I can't think of a good group among West/Central Africans right now, that is distinctive among non-Bantu Niger-Congo speakers, but I'm pretty sure West Africans have such a standout group as well (standout defined as morphologically unique to some degree, like Nilotes, but not due to Eurasian ancestry, as the case of some Sahelian groups).
But the point is, if you look at it like this, you shouldn't get anything resembling that Froment graphic where populations are close. But you might get that if you don't have a representative sample of language groups and leave out the distinctive members of each language group. For instance, based on their genetics it wouldn't surprise me if Luo representatives of Nilo-Saharan speakers would group close to Niger-Congo speakers.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Did you notice that your paper has the Herto boy with recent humans, while the Herto adult is with so-called 'archaics'? That's exactly the evidence I wanted to see confirmed (see my second post where I said I'm waiting for clarification).
Yes! His juvenile morphometric pattern is similar to contemporary Sapiens juveniles. I was trying to find another study that came out right after the Herto discovery saying how because it's a child it is uncertain due to paedomorphic features showing similarity between different species of a genus or even family.
quote:Will have to go over it closely, to make sure I get everything from it. I also want to see if they elaborate on this massive morphological distance between these two Herto fossils and the fact that this means that adult Herto isn't in our lineage, at all. (imagine if Oase I is not ancestral to later Europeans/Eurasians, how far removed Herto must be given how similar he looks to the photographs of Kabwe in the 2003 White et al paper. [In the White et al paper the Herto adult, to me, looks like a cross/hybrid between the photographs of Qafzeh 9 and Kabwe, while Herto boy looks like neither and closer to us living humans]).
Yes, I have read that because of Herto's features he was deemed to probably come from a different line or subspecies of Sapiens hence his name Homo sapiens idaltu as opposed to Homo sapiens sapiens. However, I personally hesitate to make any conclusions without say conclusive genetic evidence. Recall the Zhoukoudian Upper Cave Series. All three skulls are contemporary to each other yet all three look very different from each other as to suggest different population origins yet the late Dr. Christy Turner and others have shown that all three skulls possess sinodont teeth. If there was that much craniometric variation among early East Asians at that time there is no telling what kind of variation existed in Africa that far back. If according to Turner the UC Zhoukoudian skulls belong to the same population despite their difference in facial features, who's to say that Herto Man and Child don't belong to the same family??!
quote:The way I see it, some groups out of the language groups you mention, are the most distinctive (physically) out of the other members in their language groups. Nilotes are the most distinctive out of Nilo-Saharans, southern African Bantu speakers are the most distinctive out of Bantu speakers in certain ways, and so on. I can't think of a good group among West/Central Africans right now, that is distinctive among non-Bantu Niger-Congo speakers, but I'm pretty sure West Africans have such a standout group as well (standout defined as morphologically unique to some degree, like Nilotes, but not due to Eurasian ancestry, as the case of some Sahelian groups).
But the point is, if you look at it like this, you shouldn't get anything resembling that Froment graphic where populations are close. But you might get that if you don't have a representative sample of language groups and leave out the distinctive members of each language group. For instance, based on their genetics it wouldn't surprise me if Luo representatives of Nilo-Saharan speakers would group close to Niger-Congo speakers.
I believe linguistically the Kordofanian group of Niger-Congo shows the most affinity to Nilo-Saharan. But as far as more accurate craniometric charts how about these?
Rightmire 1975
Brauer 1980
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In regards to Ethiopians, note Mota's genomic distance to modern Ethiopians compared to other population comparisons.
^ Note the great geographic distance between Natufians of Israel and the Moroccan populations yet the Biaka pygmies of Cameroon are genetically closer to the Ethiopian Hadza than they are to Nigerians, and Mota inhabited the same vicinity as modern Ethiopians.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, I have read that because of Herto's features he was deemed to probably come from a different line or subspecies of Sapiens hence his name Homo sapiens idaltu as opposed to Homo sapiens sapiens. However, I personally hesitate to make any conclusions without say conclusive genetic evidence. Recall the Zhoukoudian Upper Cave Series. All three skulls are contemporary to each other yet all three look very different from each other as to suggest different population origins yet the late Dr. Christy Turner and others have shown that all three skulls are possess sinodont teeth. If there was that much craniometric variation among early East Asians at that time there is no telling what kind of variation existed in Africa that far back. If according to Turner the UC Zhoukoudian skulls belong to the same population despite their difference in facial features, who's to say that Herto Man and Child don't belong to the same family??!
Upper Palaeolithic sapiens skeletal remains at the same site often seem to belong to different 'races', either races we can recognize today (e.g. so-called 'Australoid' fossils), or they show variation large enough to be consistent with different races. You've mentioned the Upper Cave skeletal remains, and we also see it at Herto, Kostenki, Cro Magnon, Predmost, Qafzeh/Skhul, among other examples. Then there is the related finding that individual fossils separated by distance can have more of a resemblance than individuals at the same site. An example of this is Upper Cave 101 having its closest match in Ohalo I from the Levant, as opposed to anything at the Upper Cave site or the rest of China. Or you can have something like Mladec I showing more of a resemblance to Cro Magnon I than either does to Mladec II. Only at the latest phase of the Upper Palaeolithic we begin to see large samples that are homogeneous in a sense, in that they have a population affinity that is found more or less consistently throughout the population (e.g. Taforalt and Afalou, Jebel Sahaba, pre-Mesolithic al Khiday).
Scientists have never been able to explain this and I find it telling that some palaeontologists are going so far as to circulate new fossils amongst themselves before publishing so as to not get caught off guard by new fossils. You can't have it both ways. Either you're an expert and your predictions work and you're deserving of the trust the public vests in you, or you're not and you're losing control of the narrative with all these so-called archaics being found that don't match their predictions of human origins.
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^ Right! And by 'human' origins we should read racial origins. I noticed the more archaic fossils that are discovered, the less sense racial models make. I remember years ago in college anthropologists were figuring out that modern 'racial' groups as we know them today only formed during the Holocene and that before that phenotype varied much more widely.
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: Despite supposedly having the same amount of so called "Eurasian" mixture, Somalis are darker with wavy/curly hair, but Ethiopians are lighter with a higher incidence of kinky/spiral hair. I guess "Eurasian" mixture supposedly works differently on both of them, right? Or what do yall think accounts for this difference?
Mulatto Madness... however, if you have ever been around enough mixed people i.e. AA mixed or Afro Caribbean mixed there ae patterns of phenotypic display/expression that do show up. Now I don't know how it works I only observe and know the effects I see
Mixed person A. Dark skin will tend to have straighter hair.
Mixed Person B. lighter skin will have wholly hair.
Why this is? I have know idea but I am sure one of these days a geneticist will figure this out.
Kamala and her younger sister are a perfect example of this
I am sure there are exceptions here and there but I am talking about a general pattern that is noticeable if you have enough cultural exposure and are either are a mixed person yourself or related to mixed people
I don't understand the obsession, IMHO Somalis/Ethiopians are nothing special... it's all MULATTO MADNESS..
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^ Indeed. Obama who is half-black and half-white still has kinky hair from his father. Yet Somalis unmixed have loose wavy hair. What's interesting is that years ago a Somali created this thread asking why it is the vast majority of Horn-African biracial people look like non-African.
By the way, what's also funny is that despite Kamala Harris's claim identifying as 'black', she has no actual African ancestry. Not only is her mother South Indian (Brahmin) but her father Donald Harris is of Irish and Brhamin Indian descent himself despite being Jamaican. So the only 'black' ancestry she has is Asian.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Indeed. Obama who is half-black and half-white still has kinky hair from his father. Yet Somalis unmixed have loose wavy hair. What's interesting is that years ago a Somali created this thread asking why it is the vast majority of Horn-African biracial people look like non-African.
By the way, what's also funny is that despite Kamala Harris's claim identifying as 'black', she has no actual African ancestry. Not only is her mother South Indian (Brahmin) but her father Donald Harris is of Irish and Brhamin Indian descent himself despite being Jamaican. So the only 'black' ancestry she has is Asian.
Yeah, you lost the plot... Kamala's dad is black, he is a typical Caribbean mulatto, probably some Irish, Scottish, Welsh or English, with a South Asian ancestor but is mostly black.
Kamala's Dad
Kam and her paternal grandmother
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Somalis are not UNMIXED... they are East African MULATTOES who practice ENDOGAMY
quote: indicate that the subjects of this study constitute a homogeneous and representative sample of Somalis having approximately 60% East-African and 40% West Eurasian gene components. The K3 factor in Fig. 1A corresponds to the ADMIXTURE K10 in Fig. 1A of Hodgson et al.16 and shows approximately 60% East African and 40% West Eurasian (25% West Asian and 15% North African)
Somali film producer Ali Said Hassan
Michael Steele Afro American Republican Governor
Whats all that different between an admixed Somali and an admixed AA?
Speaking of Obama, his daughters display the darker skin = softer hair vs lighter skin tougher hair.
These beautiful young women have some of the same essential ingredients that somali's have. 25% Nilotic ancestry, 25% Eurasian/Irish/Iberian from their father. From their mother, it's not all Yoruba even though racists would love it if AA's were all Yoruba, but I am betting Michelle has a goodly portion 15 to 20% European herself. From her father's formidable height she could have Senegalese/ Fulani ancestry. Many AA's have Hausa ancestry so some more Nilo Saharan in there etc etc. Both of these young ladies could pass for Ethiopian Amharic or Somali...
So the question is what did the Nilo-Saharan/East African component phenotype in Somali's actually looked like?
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But as Lioness pointed out Ethiopians, and Eritreans especially have much higher percentages of actual Eurasian admixture than Somalis yet the former not only being lighter skinned have higher incidence of kinky hair while the latter while darker have loose wavy hair. Which again shows that such traits are not associated with one ancestry over another.
Talking about Ethiopians is a bit tricky because they are not as homogenous as Somalis are.
Ethiopia, in fact, is a multiethnic country. Oromo or Oromos make up half of Ethiopia's population. Oromos grew in number as a result of oromization, assimilation, and forced assimilation of other ethnic groups, as well as the inclusion of mixed peoples. Many Oromos are Omotic Ethiopians with a lower proportion of Eurasian ancestry than Somalis, for example. Individually, there are more Somalis with soft or loosely curly, silky Caucasian hair than Ethiopians, but I also saw plenty of Eritreans and Ethiopians with Caucasian-type hair. Furthermore, certain ethnic groups in Northern Sudan appear to have a higher rate of Caucasian-type hair than Somalis. With that being said, the hair textures of Somalis, Eritreans, and Ethiopians are generally similar.
Once again, millions of Ethiopians have less Eurasian ancestry than Somalis. Even Amahara, who are not as heterogeneous as Oromos, have subgroups that are not (or not entirely) ethnically Ethiosemite or Amahara. As a result, Amahara people vary in appearance, Eurasian, and Mota admixture depending on region. Somalis and Eritreans, for example, have low Mota ancestry, whereas many Oromos, Woytala, and certain Amaharas have two digs of Mota ancestry. It seems that when it comes to phenotype, not only the Eurasian admixture ratio, but also the Mota input, play a role. Horners with a high Mota admixture have broader and less refined features than those with little or no Mota admixture. So the minor phenotypic difference between Somalis and many Ethiopians is the Mota ancestry and not solely the Eurasian genetic input.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Right. It should be apparent by now that the 'Sub-Saharan vs. Eurasian' is a FALSE dialectic. Both Africa and Eurasia are too diverse to make such ridiculous reductionist assumptions. The idea that Eurasia means "caucasoid" features.
Of course, Eurasians can't be equated with "caucasiod," since Eastern Eurasians, for instance, developed the so-called "mongoloid" morphology, and Eurasians like Melanesians or Adamanese resemble Africans.
However, caucasiod morphology definitely arose from Western Eurasians. The thing is, "caucasiod" is more politely referred to as "Western Eurasian" these days.
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: Talking about Ethiopians is a bit tricky because they are not as homogenous as Somalis are.
Ethiopia, in fact, is a multiethnic country. Oromo or Oromos make up half of Ethiopia's population. Oromos grew in number as a result of oromization, assimilation, and forced assimilation of other ethnic groups, as well as the inclusion of mixed peoples. Many Oromos are Omotic Ethiopians with a lower proportion of Eurasian ancestry than Somalis, for example. Individually, there are more Somalis with soft or loosely curly, silky Caucasian hair than Ethiopians, but I also saw plenty of Eritreans and Ethiopians with Caucasian-type hair. Furthermore, certain ethnic groups in Northern Sudan appear to have a higher rate of Caucasian-type hair than Somalis. With that being said, the hair textures of Somalis, Eritreans, and Ethiopians are generally similar.
Once again, millions of Ethiopians have less Eurasian ancestry than Somalis. Even Amahara, who are not as heterogeneous as Oromos, have subgroups that are not (or not entirely) ethnically Ethiosemite or Amahara. As a result, Amahara people vary in appearance, Eurasian, and Mota admixture depending on region. Somalis and Eritreans, for example, have low Mota ancestry, whereas many Oromos, Woytala, and certain Amaharas have two digs of Mota ancestry. It seems that when it comes to phenotype, not only the Eurasian admixture ratio, but also the Mota input, play a role. Horners with a high Mota admixture have broader and less refined features than those with little or no Mota admixture. So the minor phenotypic difference between Somalis and many Ethiopians is the Mota ancestry and not solely the Eurasian genetic input.
You are correct. I was speaking of Ethiopia as as whole. Of course there are different ethnic groups and even within an ethnic group there are tribal or clan divisions. Most of the admixture in Ethiopians is found in the Habeshas (Ethio-Semites) with the highest concentrations being found in Eritrea. What's funny is that there was a 2004 Tishkoff study that showed Amhara to be 40% Eurasian and the Euronuts spun that to mean all Ethiopians are 40% Eurasian and then some took it further to say all Horn Africans are! LOL
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Somalis are not UNMIXED... they are East African MULATTOES who practice ENDOGAMY
quote: indicate that the subjects of this study constitute a homogeneous and representative sample of Somalis having approximately 60% East-African and 40% West Eurasian gene components. The K3 factor in Fig. 1A corresponds to the ADMIXTURE K10 in Fig. 1A of Hodgson et al.16 and shows approximately 60% East African and 40% West Eurasian (25% West Asian and 15% North African)
Somali film producer Ali Said Hassan
So the question is what did the Nilo-Saharan/East African component phenotype in Somali's actually looked like?
I never said Somalis were "unmixed" they do have some Eurasian admixture but it's not as high as Ethiopians in general. I don't know where you got that study from but I think those results are called into question since some of those "Eurasian" markers could in fact be African since a lot of African markers get mistakenly called 'Eurasian' since Eurasian originated somewhere in Northeast Africa.
As an example of how this Eurasian admixture is false. stereotypical Sub-Saharans i.e. "negroid" types have metrically large megadont tooth crowns while West Eurasian "caucasoid" types from Europe have metrically small microdont crowns. People who are biracial or populations who are a result of crossbreeding between Sub-Saharans and Europeans like the Cape Coloured populace have intermediate mesodont tooth sizes. Yet you have have North Africans like Egyptians and Nubians whose crown sizes are totally microdont like other Eurasians.
When it comes to nonmetric traits Irish states: Characteristic North African Dental Traits As described by others (Hiernaux, 1975; Excoffier et al., 1987; Roychoudhhury and Nei, 1988; Lipschultz, 1996; among others) and as noted in this and previous studies (Irish, 1993b, 1997, 1998a), North Africans are genetically and phenetically allied with Europeans and Western Asians. North African dental frequencies are similar to those of Europeans, except for some traits that show apparent Sub-Saharan influence. Such a North/Sub-Saharan combination is also evident in many genetic systems (e.g. Roychoudhhury and Nei, 1988) Thus, I proposed (Irish, 1993b, 1998a) that the North African dental trait complex is one which *parallels that of Europeans*, yet displays higher frequencies of Bushman Canine, two-rooted UP1, three-rooted UM2, LM2 Y- groove, LM1 cusp 7, LP1 Tome's root, two-rooted LM2, and lower frequencies of UM1 enamel extension and peg/reduced or absent UM3. North Africans also exhibit a higher frequency of UM1 Carabelli's trait than sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans.
^ So North Africans possess 6 of the 11 traits that characterize Sub-Saharans but other than that parallel Europeans and West Asians, yet they are totally microdont.
Somalis according to Hanihara are metrically intermediate between mesodonty and microdonty while non-metrically West Eurasian. By the way, Scott Haddows study show his Ethiopian and Eritrean samples to be nonmetrically identical to Egyptians.
This is why admixture models don't work
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26510 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There were some youtube videos i and others posted in other threads showing some Somalis and ethiopians that have little or no Eurasian admixture at all.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Here is a somali who is 100% somali(100% african). DNA-GAYGA MAXUU SHEYGAYA | WHAT IS MY DNA RESULTS | DNA & ME | Naz Ahmed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOCSpWbwCuk
___________________________________________
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: 23&Me DNA Test Results | Te Golden #23&Me #dnatest
posted
^ The problem comes from what exactly is meant by "Eurasian". Because ancestral Eurasians originated in Northeast Africa, some genetic markers in that region can be confused as Eurasian back-migration. Hence why Elijah asked the question here: What is the true amount of authentic "Eurasian" mix in Horners?
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: While this thread has provided me a lot of insights on Ethiopia's artistic conventions. I still have questions regarding the genetic component of Tigrayan populations. If we assume that Arabians, specifically south Arabians were phenotypically and genetically indistinguishable from SSA populations how is it that this study was able to find up to 50% non African DNA among them? I like 50% is composed of middle eastern and European populations.
Since individual differences haven't been found amoung Tigrayan populations(unlike Oromo) isn't it safe to say that their ancestors were initially Northern/Central Asian semites that back migrated to the horn and mixed with Cushitics resulting in their African admixture?
The genetic position of East Africans has been discussed many times before including here in regards to the Tishkoff et al. 2000 study: ..these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) *that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe.*
This explains much of the genetic affinities.
The coward Antalas would parade this autosomal data but run away when asked for clarifications about it.
According to the table the Wolayta are 34% 'Eurasian'.
Here are some Wolayta
Yet according to Ethiohelix's data in regards to their uniparental lineages..
The Wolayta have 0% Eurasian paternal lineages
And whatever Eurasian maternal lineages they have does not even reach 20%.
What's more is that the Dogon of West Africa look no different from other West Africans yet their autosomal data shows that they are over 60% Eurasian!
So there is something more to their Eurasian affinity than mere "admixture" or back-migration.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26510 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti. Vahaduo genetic distances are gobbledygook. Please leave the Miro.Cisms on twitter. That aside you hit the nail on the head here and such results can easily be reflected in the Genetic data we have available. Vahaduo ain't it.
Posts: 1793 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Djehuti. Vahaduo genetic distances are gobbledygook. Please leave the Miro.Cisms on twitter. That aside you hit the nail on the head here and such results can easily be reflected in the Genetic data we have available. Vahaduo ain't it.
posted
I dated Horners(mainly Somalis, yes its possible ) and I have Ethiopians in my family thru marriage. I agree Ethiopian hair is much more "kinkier" though still not full blown kinky(4 type) like Niger-Congo speakers. Whereas Somalis have more wavy hair including the men. Somali women also braid their hair less compared to Afro-Asiatic speaking Ethiopian women.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Somalis have less Eurasian, but also less Sub-Saharan and more (insert non-SSA component [Natufian-like, Ethiosomali, take your pick]) than Ethiopians.
This IAC is colored dark green on the figure and is referenced here as “Ethio-Somali”. This Ethio-Somali IAC is found at its highest frequencies in Cushitic speaking Somali populations and at high frequencies in neighboring Cushitic and Semitic speaking Afar, Amhara, Oromo, and Tygray populations. This IAC was not identified in the source study for the HOA SNP data [16], but Tishkoff and colleagues [59], in an analysis of an independent autosomal microsatellite dataset, did recover an equivalent IAC (calling it “Cushitic”). While this Ethio-Somali IAC is found primarily in Africa, it has clear non-African affinities (Text S1). Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa (2014) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055572/
Should not be a mystery in 2023 after countless discussions on African components that are neither SSA nor Eurasian.
This makes a lot of sense especially when you take into account the geography. Using history... The Oromos for example were absorbing A LOT of ethnic groups including non-AA speakers.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Indeed. Obama who is half-black and half-white still has kinky hair from his father. Yet Somalis unmixed have loose wavy hair. What's interesting is that years ago a Somali created this thread asking why it is the vast majority of Horn-African biracial people look like non-African.
By the way, what's also funny is that despite Kamala Harris's claim identifying as 'black', she has no actual African ancestry. Not only is her mother South Indian (Brahmin) but her father Donald Harris is of Irish and Brhamin Indian descent himself despite being Jamaican. So the only 'black' ancestry she has is Asian.
Ehhh... Kamala DOES have African ancestry. Her father is clearly mixed. Not sure where you got she doesn't have any African ancestry? To me she has visible African ancestry.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Somalis are NOT "mulattos" because mulatto=Black/White offspring which Somalis are not. Either way "mixed" to me can mean anything.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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By the way I was using the term ironically... because of the obsession with Ethiopian/Somalis dna ancestry as if it is somehow special or different from anyone other mixed race person
quote:he Real Academia Española traces its origin to mulo in the sense of hybridity;originally used to refer to any mixed race person .[26] The term is now generally considered outdated and offensive in non-Spanish and non-Portuguese speaking countries,[27] and was considered offensive even in the 19th century.[28]
Jack D. Forbes suggests it originated in the Arabic term muwallad, which means 'a person of mixed ancestry'.[29] Muwallad literally means 'born, begotten, produced, generated; brought up', with the implication of being born and raised among Arabs, but not of Arab blood.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The problem comes from what exactly is meant by "Eurasian". Because ancestral Eurasians originated in Northeast Africa, some genetic markers in that region can be confused as Eurasian back-migration. Hence why Elijah asked the question here: What is the true amount of authentic "Eurasian" mix in Horners?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ibis: [qb]
What's more is that the Dogon of West Africa look no different from other West Africans yet their autosomal data shows that they are over 60% Eurasian!
So there is something more to their Eurasian affinity than mere "admixture" or back-migration.
And what do their teeth show? Do teeth always match one to one on DNA ancestry?
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2731 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I dated Horners(mainly Somalis, yes its possible ) and I have Ethiopians in my family thru marriage. I agree Ethiopian hair is much more "kinkier" though still not full blown kinky(4 type) like Niger-Congo speakers.[/QB]
No luck for me so far, as far as opportunities presenting themselves. But as far as African ladies in general, I did date a Liberian + Algerian girl, as well as one from Ghana. But the one from Ghana was just flirting (nothing really got off the ground), so the count is still on 1 for Africans, 0 for East Africans .
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: This makes a lot of sense especially when you take into account the geography. Using history... The Oromos for example were absorbing A LOT of ethnic groups including non-AA speakers.
Yeah, geography could be a big factor, especially for groups like Afar who seem to have retained their Ethio-Somali better than others. Afar have 43% Ethio-Somali, while other Ethiopians have it in the range of 20s and 30s (e.g. Wolayta have 27%, Oromo have 31%, Amhara have 35%).
But these figures, to me, seem to hint at more than just good conservation of pastoralist ancestry. Somalis for instance have ~56% Ethio-Somali. That figure is on par with, if not more than ancient Kenyan pastoralist populations. Definitely a figure consistent with admixture with an older (pre-pastoralist) group, which is also supported by mtDNA M1, which seems to have had a presence there before pastoralists, already in the LGM.
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I dated Horners(mainly Somalis, yes its possible ) and I have Ethiopians in my family thru marriage. I agree Ethiopian hair is much more "kinkier" though still not full blown kinky(4 type) like Niger-Congo speakers. Whereas Somalis have more wavy hair including the men. Somali women also braid their hair less compared to Afro-Asiatic speaking Ethiopian women.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Somalis have less Eurasian, but also less Sub-Saharan and more (insert non-SSA component [Natufian-like, Ethiosomali, take your pick]) than Ethiopians.
This IAC is colored dark green on the figure and is referenced here as “Ethio-Somali”. This Ethio-Somali IAC is found at its highest frequencies in Cushitic speaking Somali populations and at high frequencies in neighboring Cushitic and Semitic speaking Afar, Amhara, Oromo, and Tygray populations. This IAC was not identified in the source study for the HOA SNP data [16], but Tishkoff and colleagues [59], in an analysis of an independent autosomal microsatellite dataset, did recover an equivalent IAC (calling it “Cushitic”). While this Ethio-Somali IAC is found primarily in Africa, it has clear non-African affinities (Text S1). Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa (2014) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055572/
Should not be a mystery in 2023 after countless discussions on African components that are neither SSA nor Eurasian.
This makes a lot of sense especially when you take into account the geography. Using history... The Oromos for example were absorbing A LOT of ethnic groups including non-AA speakers.
Hiernaux on Galla(Oromo):
Physically, the Galla resemble the Tutsi in face and nose shape but they are shorter in stature and head length. Their hair form falls most often in the curly to kinky class; a few individuals show the peppercorn type, but nearly 9% of them have hair with long, broad waves, which speaks for a moderate Arab influence in their gene pool
Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa p145
Posts: 2601 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Djehuti. Vahaduo genetic distances are gobbledygook. Please leave the Miro.Cisms on twitter. That aside you hit the nail on the head here and such results can easily be reflected in the Genetic data we have available. Vahaduo ain't it.
Look, I'm not saying these genetic distance programs are the be-all end-all, but they do offer some value. If you look at the results for East Eurasians especially Australasians, they parallel the results for Africans and West Eurasians which is why Euronuts avoid bringing it up.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I dated Horners(mainly Somalis, yes its possible ) and I have Ethiopians in my family thru marriage. I agree Ethiopian hair is much more "kinkier" though still not full blown kinky(4 type) like Niger-Congo speakers. Whereas Somalis have more wavy hair including the men. Somali women also braid their hair less compared to Afro-Asiatic speaking Ethiopian women.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Somalis have less Eurasian, but also less Sub-Saharan and more (insert non-SSA component [Natufian-like, Ethiosomali, take your pick]) than Ethiopians.
This IAC is colored dark green on the figure and is referenced here as “Ethio-Somali”. This Ethio-Somali IAC is found at its highest frequencies in Cushitic speaking Somali populations and at high frequencies in neighboring Cushitic and Semitic speaking Afar, Amhara, Oromo, and Tygray populations. This IAC was not identified in the source study for the HOA SNP data [16], but Tishkoff and colleagues [59], in an analysis of an independent autosomal microsatellite dataset, did recover an equivalent IAC (calling it “Cushitic”). While this Ethio-Somali IAC is found primarily in Africa, it has clear non-African affinities (Text S1). Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa (2014) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055572/
Should not be a mystery in 2023 after countless discussions on African components that are neither SSA nor Eurasian.
This makes a lot of sense especially when you take into account the geography. Using history... The Oromos for example were absorbing A LOT of ethnic groups including non-AA speakers.
The autosomal data shows the presence of a substrata, perhaps several that were absorbed by Neolithic (Afroasiatic speakers) such as the Hadza, Mota, etc. There is even a Dinka-like marker not necessarily Dinka found in many Somali.
The relevant point Swenet makes is that these markers differ from those labeled as "Sub-Saharan" even though they may very well originate in Sub-Sahara.
But you are correct about the Oromo. The Oromo ethnicity is further subdivided into tribes and clans with the 2 biggest divisions being the Borana and Barento. The same with the Somali with the 2 largest divisions being Samaal and Sab. Both peoples use the same segmented patrilineal system with certain clans being labeled as "vassals" or subserviant clans adopted into the ethnos. The same system is seen in Berbers of the Sahara except theirs is matrilineal.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: And what do their teeth show? Do teeth always match one to one on DNA ancestry?
Who? The Dogon?? I have no idea. As far as I'm aware of the Dogon exhibit typical "Sub-Saharan" i.e. "negroid" morphology so I assume it's the same with their odontics though I don't know of any odontic study on them. But in regards to your second question, I created this thread-- Odontics Same as Genetics, which shows a strong correlation between nonmetric odontic traits and genetic relations.
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posted
For all the talk about Eurocentric biases look at this thread, it has that same mentality, focus on phenotypic differences between ethnic groups "admixture" , "sub-Saharan" etc, hair type, darker, lighter
Posts: 43117 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The relevant point Swenet makes is that these markers differ from those labeled as "Sub-Saharan" even though they may very well originate in Sub-Sahara.
I can't take credit for that. It has been discussed too many times as I stated in my first post. (The boredom just now made me take the segue to dating experiences in my last post). But I will definitely take credit for those Herto positions I took earlier on in this thread. (Or the L, in the off chance that I'm wrong, which I don't see happening).
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No luck for me so far, as far as opportunities presenting themselves. But as far as African ladies in general, I did date a Liberian + Algerian girl, as well as one from Ghana. But the one from Ghana was just flirting (nothing really got off the ground), so the count is still on 1 for Africans, 0 for East Africans .
I've dated Horners and other Africans here in the USA and on the continent. Horners in general are very insular which can be tough but.... If you have your shit together, not a bum, come correct and no hating ass man(especially for Somalis) you definitely have a chance. And I don't care what these weirdo Hamitic supremacists(THEM not ALL Horners especially Somalis) online say but Somali women are definitely "curious" about men of "West African descent." To be honest I find them(Somali women) easier than Ethiopian women specifically when their men aren't mateguarding hard. Now marriage is a totally different story...
As for me? I dated a lot of East Africans(not just Horners), only 1 West African(Ivory Coast), a Moroccan when I was a teenager(she was Americanized/nonreligious) and lots of South Africans in South Africa. I can also show pics. lol.
But Liberian/Algerian is an interesting ass mix. And don't you live in Europe? I heard that African women there are very "standoffish" and that's putting it politely.
Edit: We can take it to the PMs if you want.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yeah, geography could be a big factor, especially for groups like Afar who seem to have retained their Ethio-Somali better than others. Afar have 43% Ethio-Somali, while other Ethiopians have it in the range of 20s and 30s (e.g. Wolayta have 27%, Oromo have 31%, Amhara have 35%).
Not to ask a dumb question but I assume "Ethio-Somali" is basically another word for "indigenous Northeast African" I assume? But yea the Afar region is more isolated especially compared to the Oromo region which borders "non-Ethio-Somali" areas. My brother in law's father who is Oromo(his mother is Amhara) looks more Nilo-Saharan than Cushite in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
But these figures, to me, seem to hint at more than just good conservation of pastoralist ancestry. Somalis for instance have ~56% Ethio-Somali. That figure is on par with, if not more than ancient Kenyan pastoralist populations. Definitely a figure consistent with admixture with an older (pre-pastoralist) group, which is also supported by mtDNA M1, which seems to have had a presence there before pastoralists, already in the LGM.
I've constantly read that Somalis are the best representation of "Cushite" speakers in the region when it comes to samples. And yea M1 is a very ancient lineage in that region and one of the best hints for indigenous Northeast African imo. Correct me.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: For all the talk about Eurocentric biases look at this thread, it has that same mentality, focus on phenotypic differences between ethnic groups "admixture" , "sub-Saharan" etc, hair type, darker, lighter
Talking about different features and how diverse African phenotypes are is NOT adhering to Eurocentricism. Which is what ES has been doing for a long time.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Agreed. Like I said to Swenet, my brother in law's father is Oromo and he looks mixed with some Nilo-Saharan. A lot of people on his father's side look Nilo-Saharan admixed. When I was in Ethiopia, Oromos had the most varied phenotypes imo.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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If I'm reading the discussion right the marker not labeled SSA which I assume is "Ethio-Somali" could be Indigenous North African and could've arrived to the Horn via a more northern migration. I'm just playing devils advocate.
But agreed on the Oromos.
Posts: 1909 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I can't take credit for that. It has been discussed too many times as I stated in my first post. (The boredom just now made me take the segue to dating experiences in my last post). But I will definitely take credit for those Herto positions I took earlier on in this thread. (Or the L, in the off chance that I'm wrong, which I don't see happening).
Sure thing. As it comes to more recent skeletal remains, I've been looking into the Neolithic and Bronze Age remains in Yemen and Oman but I don't see any anthropological assessment. The few sources I've seen only briefly describe them as "Mediterranean".
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: For all the talk about Eurocentric biases look at this thread, it has that same mentality, focus on phenotypic differences between ethnic groups "admixture" , "sub-Saharan" etc, hair type, darker, lighter
You can take it up with Elijah but I'm pretty sure his query is based on the Eurocentric notion of mixed Horners. By the way Elijah, you should check out Ethio-helix's blog Anthromadness, he has a lot of info on Horn African populations considering that he's of that heritage.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Sure thing. As it comes to more recent skeletal remains, I've been looking into the Neolithic and Bronze Age remains in Yemen and Oman but I don't see any anthropological assessment. The few sources I've seen only briefly describe them as "Mediterranean".
While looking into Arabian skeletal remains, be prepared to find lots of references to "Mediterranean" as well as reports/announcements of excavations that 'somehow' have no anthro assessments.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I've dated Horners and other Africans here in the USA and on the continent. Horners in general are very insular which can be tough but.... If you have your shit together, not a bum, come correct and no hating ass man(especially for Somalis) you definitely have a chance. And I don't care what these weirdo Hamitic supremacists(THEM not ALL Horners especially Somalis) online say but Somali women are definitely "curious" about men of "West African descent." To be honest I find them(Somali women) easier than Ethiopian women specifically when their men aren't mateguarding hard. Now marriage is a totally different story...
As for me? I dated a lot of East Africans(not just Horners), only 1 West African(Ivory Coast), a Moroccan when I was a teenager(she was Americanized/nonreligious) and lots of South Africans in South Africa. I can also show pics. lol.
Yes, the bolded makes all the difference in the world.
Here in western Europe, to get involved in those situations you have to know how to move or you might as well avoid those situations. Google 'honor killings' to see what I mean. There was one case in the US as well with an Egyptian girl and a black kid. Her father killed her and her sister and the black kid had to go into hiding). Of course, it's mostly not that dangerous, but in my experience interference is always a lurking problem. As I told my friend who is into those "off limits" girls, you can't approach this like a normal date situation because people can come up to you out of nowhere, and they may not even know her. All they know is she looks MENA and that's enough for them.
With the mixed girl there was no such issue in public because she looked like a mulatta (she looked a bit like Veil from Into the Badlands, if you want to know). This made it so I could let my guard down in public.
If you feel this is going too off topic, you can PM me your response back. I do want to know how you deal with the part about outsiders interfering.
quote:Not to ask a dumb question but I assume "Ethio-Somali" is basically another word for "indigenous Northeast African" I assume? But yea the Afar region is more isolated especially compared to the Oromo region which borders "non-Ethio-Somali" areas. My brother in law's father who is Oromo(his mother is Amhara) looks more Nilo-Saharan than Cushite in my opinion.
Correct. It's the NE African in Horners. Probably to get the true NE African you would have to include samples like Nuerat and Natufians and you'd also get a component that is slightly different in affinity (for instance, in the fst table, Ethio-Somali is pretty interemdiate, but I don't think the properly captured NE African component would be so intermediate).
quote:I've constantly read that Somalis are the best representation of "Cushite" speakers in the region when it comes to samples. And yea M1 is a very ancient lineage in that region and one of the best hints for indigenous Northeast African imo. Correct me.
I still have yet to put the pieces of the puzzle together regarding early mtDNA M1 (ie where it went after splitting frrom mtDNA L3 and M). But after the LGM/during postglacial times, I think it's safe to say that lineages like mtDNA M1 were part of the mtDNA pool of the populations from the Maghreb to the Rift Valley. The East African portion of this metapopulation that Horners, but especially Somalis seem to have mixed with, seem to have included populations that used backed blades (note: not backed bladelets as in Egypt and the Maghreb). See quotes below of the blade (but not microlithic) industries, and note the timing coincides with the LGM and later, much like certain mtDNA M1a haplogroups:
In the Ethiopian section of the Rift Valley, the beginnings of the local blade tradition using obsidian probably go back to more than 27,000 B.P. (Gase and Street 1978: 290) and certainly to 22,675 ‡ 500 B.P. on the evidence of excavations at Lake Besaka (Clark, in press). At Laga Oda in the escarpment hills south- west of Dire Dawa, the microlithic industry, using most- ly chert, is 15.000 years old (Clark and Prince 1978).
In East Africa, there are dates in the 20,000*s B.P. for the fully microlithic industry using chert, quartz and obsidian, of backed blades, lunates and fan-shaped scrapers at Lukenya Hill (S.F. Miller, pers, com.) (Fig. 3, nos. 1-5). This locality, overlooking the Athi Plains near Nairobi in Kenya, also yielded, with a simi- lar industry, a fragmentary cranium of Modern Man dating to c. 17,700 B.P. (Gramly 1976). At Nasera, in northern Tanzania, the earliest blade industry (Layer 4) has many backed blades and outils esquillés in chert and quartz and there is an amino acid racemisation date on bone of 18,000 B.P. The same industry occurs also in Layer 5 which must, ipso facto, be even earlier (Mehlman 1977). What is probably the same industry in obsidian and chert is present in the Naisiusiu beds at the Olduvai The Microlithic Industries of Africa: Their Antiquity and Possible Economic Implications https://brill.com/edcollchap/book/9789004644472/B9789004644472_s020.xmlPosts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
This might be off-topic, but since you guys mentioned mate-guarding as a phenomenon...
I think "mate-guarding" is something a lot of heterosexual men across ethnic lines do. The White supremacist male paranoia about Black or other men of color preying on White women is the most infamous example, and it remains pervasive enough for the porn industry to pander to it with all the "cuck" porn out there, but I also know from personal experience that Black separatist men can be the same way toward White men and Black women. Trying posting a picture of a White male/Black female couple in a Black speculative-fiction fan community and you will see what I mean. Not all or even most of the Black male posters in those groups are separatists, yes, but you can't deny pro-Black spaces attract Black nationalists like meat attracts flies.
Sometimes it's not even "their" women whose honor these mate-guarding men claim to defend. I've seen Black women post comments about how some of the Black men who talk shit about Black women nonetheless target White men who date Black women, as well as Black men commenting about White men in Asian countries getting angry at them for dating Asian women, as if those White dudes thought that only they had the right to date Asian women. It's like these dudes have no qualms about dating across ethnic lines themselves but won't tolerate other dudes doing the same.
In fact, you could make an argument that some of the White supremacist men who made such a big deal about Black men preying on White women after Emancipation were inspired by White male slaveholders' treatment of their Black female slaves.
Regardless of ethnicity or culture, too many straight men in this world absolutely have a problem with being possessive toward women and territorial towards male competition, as if they were stags locking antlers and chasing each other off. It brings to mind the evolutionary psychologist claim that it's in the reproductive interest of male animals to impregnate as many females as they can while keeping away any competition. Regardless of how much credence you place in evolutionary psychology, it is an uncanny resemblance of how a lot of straight men in patriarchal cultures think.
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^ "Mate-guarding" as one may put it is a practice associated with intense endogamy. In patriarchal cultures especially where women weren't necessarily property but viewed as commodities of familial exchange, the men of that culture would make sure 'their' women would only marry (let alone fornicate with) men they find suitable. And unfortunately 'racializing' of other populations would bring about xenophobic views even to the point of say viewing blacks as subhuman and thus the disgusting view that sexual relations with them is tantamount to beastiality. It depends on the psychological degree to how the men view men of outside groups as the "other".
To Swenet, one main reason why I've been looking into the early cultures of South Arabia is because I remember reading many years ago in my college library (not to mention Dana's references) that prehistoric cultures in that region share affinities to those in the Horn. The Doian Culture of Somalia with Rub al-Khali, the Gash Culture with the Tihama Culture of Yemen, and Eritrean Dʿmt with the Sabir Culture. Apparently this has been going on since the Middle Stone Age. Funny how anthropologists always talk about OOA and the southern route through southern Arabia but that very region seems to be neglected in many academic journals.
Posts: 26510 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: This might be off-topic, but since you guys mentioned mate-guarding as a phenomenon...
I think "mate-guarding" is something a lot of heterosexual men across ethnic lines do. The White supremacist male paranoia about Black or other men of color preying on White women is the most infamous example, and it remains pervasive enough for the porn industry to pander to it with all the "cuck" porn out there, but I also know from personal experience that Black separatist men can be the same way toward White men and Black women. Trying posting a picture of a White male/Black female couple in a Black speculative-fiction fan community and you will see what I mean. Not all or even most of the Black male posters in those groups are separatists, yes, but you can't deny pro-Black spaces attract Black nationalists like meat attracts flies.
Sometimes it's not even "their" women whose honor these mate-guarding men claim to defend. I've seen Black women post comments about how some of the Black men who talk shit about Black women nonetheless target White men who date Black women, as well as Black men commenting about White men in Asian countries getting angry at them for dating Asian women, as if those White dudes thought that only they had the right to date Asian women. It's like these dudes have no qualms about dating across ethnic lines themselves but won't tolerate other dudes doing the same.
In fact, you could make an argument that some of the White supremacist men who made such a big deal about Black men preying on White women after Emancipation were inspired by White male slaveholders' treatment of their Black female slaves.
Regardless of ethnicity or culture, too many straight men in this world absolutely have a problem with being possessive toward women and territorial towards male competition, as if they were stags locking antlers and chasing each other off. It brings to mind the evolutionary psychologist claim that it's in the reproductive interest of male animals to impregnate as many females as they can while keeping away any competition. Regardless of how much credence you place in evolutionary psychology, it is an uncanny resemblance of how a lot of straight men in patriarchal cultures think.
You can't expect complete repression of innate human tendencies. And if that was possible you'd have to ask what we'd lose in doing do. Building what we consider "Societies" isn't particularly necessarily but we tend towards doing so for same reasons we tend to mate-guard. There's no sociological way to wash it away without sacrificing something we conventionally view as healthy. Not a justification for honor-killing or anything. However, honor-killing (as a result of failure to mate-guard or to prevent interracial or cultural relations by eliciting fear) within itself is a biproduct of failure to reconcile with human tendencies.
--anywho, this point is a bit off topic. I'll respond to you question about G25 in a bit. It's just that I posted about it quite a few times on this site. I want to reference my previous postings.
Posts: 1793 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ "Mate-guarding" as one may put it is a practice associated with intense endogamy. In patriarchal cultures especially where women weren't necessarily property but viewed as commodities of familial exchange, the men of that culture would make sure 'their' women would only marry (let alone fornicate with) men they find suitable. And unfortunately 'racializing' of other populations would bring about xenophobic views even to the point of say viewing blacks as subhuman and thus the disgusting view that sexual relations with them is tantamount to beastiality. It depends on the psychological degree to how the men view men of outside groups as the "other".
I agree that patriarchal norms have a lot to do with it. I don't know if it is correlated with endogamy by itself, given my observation that guys like these can be possessive even of women from ethnic outgroups, but I wouldn't put it past them to demand endogamy more of women than men.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I agree that patriarchal norms have a lot to do with it. I don't know if it is correlated with endogamy by itself, given my observation that guys like these can be possessive even of women from ethnic outgroups, but I wouldn't put it past them to demand endogamy more of women than men.
I saw a documentary once about how white American officers and soldiers mate guarded British women (in England) against Black American soldiers. Seems many white Americans could not even stand to see Black American soldiers dating foreign women in a foreign land. Even British men protested against such blatant racism and at least at one occasion they helped Black soldiers to fight against the American military police.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2876 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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) and I have Ethiopians in my family thru marriage. I agree Ethiopian hair is much more "kinkier" though still not full blown kinky(4 type) like Niger-Congo speakers. Whereas Somalis have more wavy hair including the men. Somali women also braid their hair less compared to Afro-Asiatic speaking Ethiopian women. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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