Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).
But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?
From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.
As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.
My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.
Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African. Not saying that the Phoneticians themselves were African but...
2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.
3. The Vandals and natives were always differentiated.
All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: 1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African.
there is no reason to believe that the majority of the people of Carthage were native African. It was a trading colony comprised mainly of settlers from Lebanon. Some intermarriage with Africans probably took place. Since then there has been a lot of Arab immigration
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.
The Romans were in Africa? When was this?
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.
By 709, all of North Africa was under the control of the Arab caliphate and since then a constant flow of Arabian migrants
Example:
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
The bulk of European admixture probably goes back to mainly the 17th century, expulsion of the moriscos from Spain and European slaves kidnapped and enslaved by Barbary pirates under command of the Turks.
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
This is going to get interesting..
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: 1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African.
there is no reason to believe that the majority of the people of Carthage were native African. It was a trading colony comprised mainly of settlers from Lebanon. Some intermarriage with Africans probably took place. Since then there has been a lot of Arab immigration
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.
The Romans were in Africa? When was this?
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.
By 709, all of North Africa was under the control of the Arab caliphate and since then a constant flow of Arabian migrants
Example:
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
The bulk of European admixture probably goes back to mainly the 17th century, expulsion of the moriscos from Spain and European slaves kidnapped and enslaved by Barbary pirates under command of the Turks.
lol! I see Lyin_SS is quickyly the becoming the expert on the subject of ancient north Africa , its plagiarism not withstanding.
Still not wanting to quote I see.
And everything you stated here was a half _ss LIE as usual. You are getting even funnier with your trying to sound halfway academic as well.
Really funny is your posting a painting of Muslims from Andalusia and trying to imply that they were "Arabians".
It is highly unfortunate that people like you are on forums around the internet pretending that you have something worth saying when you are nobody but a person going around trolling and talking nonsense i.e. nothing but SHiiiiii_! - acquired from your NEANDERDIMWIT friends and attempting to create the illusion that you have something worthwhile contributing to this forum.
Like I said all you are doing is allowing other people to come here and learn the facts from me and others with more than half a brain about the black Africans YOU OBVIOUSLY HATE!
And what the HELL kind of question is this: "The Romans were in Africa? When was this?"
Alright - how 'bout neo-Romans does that suit you better - you inferior-feeling, dizzy-brained DUNCE?
Go take some dance lessons somewhere girl because you'll never be able to learn with ur kind of FEEBLE BRAIN AND UGLY MIND.
-
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African. Not saying that the Phoneticians themselves were African but...
2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.
3. The Vandals and natives were always differentiated.
All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.
Yes, Son of Ra - you have the facts on your side since the Syrians described the Masmuda and other Berber people on the coast of Morocco and Algeria as black in the 14th and 15th centuries.You are probably mostly right.
Here is another statement from a Kurd, Ibn Athir in the 11th century.
As found in Tafsir al-Qur’an al-‘Azim, Dar al-Taybah, Beirut 1999 vol.6 p.544 Ibn Kathir writes : “Among mankind there are Berbers, Ethiopians and (some) barbarians who are very black”
In other words Berbers and Ethiopians among mankind are very black while some of the barbarians were as well.
It has already been stated by scholars that 10s of thousands of Andalusians settled in North Africa when Muslims were expelled from the Iberian peninsula and settled especially in the Riff region of Morocco in particular, along with the Genoans and of course the "endless white slaves" kept in pens across North Africa, which Her Neanderdumbness here likes to forget.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@lioness
????
Um...Didn't the Romans not conquer parts of Northern Africa??? Of course there were some Romans in North Africa. Probably mostly Roman legions or Officials.
As for Carthage. Africans were native to that land, so its possible to assume that they were the majority. And I read that the majority of the remains of a Carthaginians grave yard were of African descent. Does anyone the source for that one?
And yeah I know parts of North Africa were under control by Arabs.
@Dana
Thanks.
It seems people usually forget about the large numbers of Muslims from Europe being expelled and then migrating into Northern Africa. Why?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @lioness
????
Um...Didn't the Romans not conquer parts of Northern Africa??? Of course there were some Romans in North Africa. Probably mostly Roman legions or Officials.
As for Carthage. Africans were native to that land, so its possible to assume that they were the majority. And I read that the majority of the remains of a Carthaginians grave yard were of African descent. Does anyone the source for that one?
And yeah I know parts of North Africa were under control by Arabs.
@Dana
Thanks.
It seems people usually forget about the large numbers of Muslims from Europe being expelled and then migrating into Northern Africa. Why?
Actually when I said people forget i meant most people on this forum. But in truth very few Western people are familiar with or want to deal with the historic aspects of north Africa and the Middle East in that way because it means people like the Africans would have at one time had the power over them they felt they always had over darker peoples.
It is for the same reason people don't want to admit or know the original inhabitants of Arabia and Egypt were an extension of black Africans or that the first Muslims along with Jews and Christians were black.
Their loss though, because that party is over.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @lioness
????
Um...Didn't the Romans not conquer parts of Northern Africa??? Of course there were some Romans in North Africa. Probably mostly Roman legions or Officials.
As for Carthage. Africans were native to that land, so its possible to assume that they were the majority. And I read that the majority of the remains of a Carthaginians grave yard were of African descent. Does anyone the source for that one?
And yeah I know parts of North Africa were under control by Arabs.
@Dana
Thanks.
It seems people usually forget about the large numbers of Muslims from Europe being expelled and then migrating into Northern Africa. Why?
Actually when I said people forget i meant most people on this forum. But in truth very few Western people are familiar with or want to deal with the historic aspects of north Africa and the Middle East in that way because it means people like the Africans would have at one time had the power over them they felt they always had over darker peoples.
It is for the same reason people don't want to admit or know the original inhabitants of Arabia and Egypt were an extension of black Africans or that the first Muslims along with Jews and Christians were black.
Their loss though, because that party is over.
Yeah. And it also seems certain people want to make North Africa/Maghreb an extension of Europe. Its ironic, because those same people would have been killed by Berbers and other Africans of of the Western Sudanic prior to the 15th century all due to their white skin.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Lol! I was on that forum a few days with Jehosafats and found out we agreed on a lot of things and had so much information. I told him that in fact - that he knows what he is talking about. But due to the fact I was on there giving a lot of facts on the Moors - before I got kicked off, that is - the forum nearly closed down (i heard) as so many people had come on line at the same time (probably lots of Euronuts) finding out about the debate I was having there and saying the things I was. I had gone on actually because of Jehosafats and was offering my support with lots of extra facts.
Too bad the forum moderators were so sensitive though and blocked me for talking back to one of their prized no-nothing customers.
It was from him I learned about the fact that some scholars believe the so called Zanj or black rebellion was actually an Arab one - true Arab in fact.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Lol> I was on that forum with Jehosafats and we agreed on a lot of things. I told him that in fact - that he knows what he is talking about. But due to the fact I was on there giving a lot of facts on the Moors - before I got kicked off that is - the forum nearly closed down i heard because so many people finding out I was on there saying the things I was.
Too bad the forum moderators were so sensitive though and blocked me for talking back to one of their prized no-nothing customers.
Compared to other sites(Forumbiodiversity being one), Historum is okay. But my god the Mods can be annoying and strict. You have to be careful. They'll ban you for anything. Now most the people are Historum are not hardcore Euronuts. I mean they are happy when you post interesting things about Africa and African people and are more opened minded compared to other people from different sites. But when it comes to the Moors and Ancient Egyptians(North Africans in general), thats when they have a problem.
It seems when people on the African site are proving their point, the thread always gets locked. Now you can't post anything that has to do with genetics on that site, because most users were proving with genetics that the Ancient Egyptians(and North Africans) were really African.
All I am saying is that the Mods on Historum can be tricky. They'll lock any thread they don't like for BS reason. But at least Historum is not no Forumbiodiversity where the mods are full blown RACIST!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Yes, OK I see the thread, thanks. Looks like Jehosaphats is mentioning some of the same info on that thread. I'm glad he has the staying power he has had there as they sure need some black folk on there.
"Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: 'All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years.' (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101)"
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Lol> I was on that forum with Jehosafats and we agreed on a lot of things. I told him that in fact - that he knows what he is talking about. But due to the fact I was on there giving a lot of facts on the Moors - before I got kicked off that is - the forum nearly closed down i heard because so many people finding out I was on there saying the things I was.
Too bad the forum moderators were so sensitive though and blocked me for talking back to one of their prized no-nothing customers.
Compared to other sites(Forumbiodiversity being one), Historum is okay. But my god the Mods can be annoying and strict. You have to be careful. They'll ban you for anything. Now most the people are Historum are not hardcore Euronuts. I mean they are happy when you post interesting things about Africa and African people and are more opened minded compared to other people from different sites. But when it comes to the Moors and Ancient Egyptians(North Africans in general), thats when they have a problem.
It seems when people on the African site are proving their point, the thread always gets locked. Now you can't post anything that has to do with genetics on that site, because most users were proving with genetics that the Ancient Egyptians(and North Africans) were really African.
All I am saying is that the Mods on Historum can be tricky. They'll lock any thread they don't like for BS reason. But at least Historum is not no Forumbiodiversity where the mods are full blown RACIST!
To me Son, being semi-racist and sneaky as a LYIN_ss snake is worse than your everyday unthinking bigot.
Just as Dr. Van Sertima used to say in his lectures "because a half truth is worst than a lie, as we saw in the time of Hitler." Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
dana marniche
Blessings Empress Dana. Seeing you school them Boyz makes me happy That I still post on this forum.
Truth is that God made BLACKS(Africans, Indians) 1st and these people built up Egypt Harrapan, Hindu Kush, Elam etc. I always laugh at euros who "claim" they are Egyptian Indians. Really?? Egyptian and Indians were Caucsians?? Is that why White people get skin cancer in South Africa, Australia, North Africa at the Highest rates? Excuse me while I laugh, Bahahahah. Some Euros are truly Truthseekers and I credit them for not lieing to save there White Power base. Slowly Blacks and WHites are getting Closer. When Whites and Blacks realize we are in the same Boat, Then will we be able to protest the elites together.
The elites keep Blacks and Whites apart because its easier to conquer division.
Peace
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
So Dana what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: dana marniche
Blessings Empress Dana. Seeing you school them Boyz makes me happy That I still post on this forum.
Truth is that God made BLACKS(Africans, Indians) 1st and these people built up Egypt Harrapan, Hindu Kush, Elam etc. I always laugh at euros who "claim" they are Egyptian Indians. Really?? Egyptian and Indians were Caucsians?? Is that why White people get skin cancer in South Africa, Australia, North Africa at the Highest rates? Excuse me while I laugh, Bahahahah. Some Euros are truly Truthseekers and I credit them for not lieing to save there White Power base. Slowly Blacks and WHites are getting Closer. When Whites and Blacks realize we are in the same Boat, Then will we be able to protest the elites together.
The elites keep Blacks and Whites apart because its easier to conquer division.
Peace
lol! King don't call me an Empress like the Rasta man on Africa Resource.
I always love to see we agree on so much. I especially love to call out the Europeans that are giving credit where it is justly due to Africans. Those are the ones that are truly confident in who they are not just as white people, but as humans. It is true a lot of media pelites especially desire to keep blacks and whites playing the race card game.
It is also true blacks and whites in the U.S. are starting to see each other as having the same divine spark with the same need for human rights thanks to the likes of many whites I might add like Ed Schultz and some of the more progressive "white" people in the media, who are becoming fed up. Hopefully some of these more barbaric brethren here will one day see Middle Eastern people too as people rather than sending drones and bombs and soldiers to split their childrens' heads open.
Some of us blacks however are still seeing our problems as "a black thang" unfortunately and that has got to change too.
But that's of course a lot easier for people like me who believe in karma and past lives to say. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: So Dana what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans?
Son - I doubt there is an "average" today if you go around the different parts of North AFrica. It probably depends on what part of North Africa you are in. I am sure you will see various shades of people all of varying admixture and phenotype depending on whether people are from the central parts, northern or southern regions of the Maghreb.
I have been told when you get away from the coasts however skin becomes a lot more brown rather quickly in the North African countries.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284), called the Wise was the King of Castile Spain, León and Galicia from 30 May 1252 until his death. From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.
Here is more from the The Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X. this section the famous Book of Games
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: So Dana what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans?
Son - I doubt there is an "average" today if you go around the different parts of North AFrica. It probably depends on what part of North Africa you are in. I am sure you will see various shades of people all of varying admixture and phenotype depending on whether people are from the central parts, northern or southern regions of the Maghreb.
I have been told when you get away from the coasts however skin becomes a lot more brown rather quickly in the North African countries.
It seems the populations are more concentrated in the coastal area. I thought the common look of North Africans were a mulatto type look.
Like this.
Morrocan
Tunisia Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Son of Ra there are a wide variety of types, that is the answer
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284), called the Wise was the King of Castile Spain, León and Galicia from 30 May 1252 until his death. From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.
Here is more from the The Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X. this section the famous Book of Games
yes white converted MUSLIMS many of them descendants of SLAVES were in Spain LYIN_SS. Now they're in North AFrica. GET IT!? Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Lioness
I know that. I was asking which type was the majority.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
I think the majority along the coast are probably somewhere between European or Syrian looking rather than like the mulattos you posted, but as I say it would probably depend today on the town you go to.
Not sure why the question is particularly relevant though.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^I was curious.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
For your info - oh feeble-minded troll - "The term mouro or Moor as used in the Cantigas included not only the Mudejars who were subject to Christian rule and the independent Muslims of the kingdoms of Granada and Morocco, but also the lands of Ultramar the lands occupied in Palestine, Syria and Egypt..." p. 84 Alfonso X and the Cantigas of Santa Maria. by J. F. Callahan.
BOOO YAH!
There goes your Euronut theory these are all depictions of Spanish MUSLIMS. ONLY GOD KNOWS what country these "MOORS" Alfonso was depicting WERE FROM.
CHECKMATE!
And it still doesn't change the fact the word Negro and Moor were synonyms for centuries for the Mozarabs - . Christians under Moorish rule.
Who cares what it meant for the author of the Cantigas which had nothing to do with its original significance. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: yes white converted MUSLIMS many of them descendants of SLAVES were in Spain LYIN_SS. Now they're in North AFrica. GET IT!? [/QB]
shut up bitch, you're lying >
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
The Almohad movement originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribal confederation of the Atlas Mountains of southern Morocco.
The Almohad Dynasty was a Moroccan Berber-Muslim dynasty founded in the 12th century that established a Berber state in Tinmel in the Atlas Mountains in roughly 1120. The Moorish army of almohad king Umar al-Murtada and Christian allies, readying for battle in the city of Marrakech
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284), called the Wise was the King of Castile Spain, León and Galicia from 30 May 1252 until his death. From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.
Here is more from the The Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X. this section the famous Book of Games
Why is there German calligraphy?
And dies it speak of the ethnic backgrounds of those in the images?
Who are they, and what was he trying to illustrate?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: yes white converted MUSLIMS many of them descendants of SLAVES were in Spain LYIN_SS. Now they're in North AFrica. GET IT!?
shut up bitch, you're lying >
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
The Almohad movement originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribal confederation of the Atlas Mountains of southern Morocco.
The Almohad Dynasty was a Moroccan Berber-Muslim dynasty founded in the 12th century that established a Berber state in Tinmel in the Atlas Mountains in roughly 1120. The Moorish army of almohad king Umar al-Murtada and Christian allies, readying for battle in the city of Marrakech
This would help explain why we have descriptions of "White" Moors in Granda in 1526 less than what 30 or 40 give or take years after the Reconqista of Granda in 1492..
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Dr. Lange, in his diary, wrote this interesting story:
"The capital of the kingdom of Granada is the city of the same name that rises above the hills on which is built so that no height opposition outside its walls can dominate its surroundings. Granada is almost twice that Nuremberg and in its surrounding mountains, even in the hottest days of the year, abundant snow, its inhabitants used to cool the wine. The city of Granada is just a dozen miles from the Mediterranean. You can, therefore, to arrive to Africa in three days, and four others can reach the western boundary of the world. In the past, belonged to the Moorish Granada, had two kings during the wars of his later years and six years was besieged by King Ferdinand, whose army built to their doors to the small town dede Santa Fe, and whose wife, Isabel , conquered the seventh year for our faith sacrosanct.
Continue: half the population are white Moors, whose wives and daughters wear white pants sailor pants (almost identical to those used by shepherds in Germany),(la mitad de la población son moros blancos, cuyas mujeres e hijas visten blancos pantalones de marinero calzones (casi idénticos a los que en Alemania usan los pastores) and also wear clothing that also white cover from the face to the calves, but, more importantly, they cover their faces. In order to be allowed to freely use this kind of attire, each must pay an annual tax to the emperor of a duchy. Those who do not want to enter the church on Sundays have to pay the priest a year real. Also in the hillsides of the city there are still deep caves to visit, in which a contingent of Christian captives (including a bishop) were locked at night and which are rented by day to make us work in all sorts of crafts.
And were: the aforementioned city reconquered the day of San Juan and for this reason every year the nobles and bourgeois dress up that day of Moors and Turks bearing shields and spears and celebrate a kind of burlesque profession that runs throughout the city at dawn . Later in broad daylight and held a mock victory. There is loose then, six or seven bulls in the market place for people to run and the sugar. Following comes the cavalry followed, dressed in costumes Moors and Turks, divided into two camps. They shoot each other complex and large muskets, loaded only with gunpowder saved, be pursued in all directions, pretending great surprises, now advancing, now receding and graceful attitudes adopted in the meantime.
We saw on the feast of San Juan Bautista and the Emperor himself participated in these games in Granada, in the presence of the Empress and a host of Portuguese bridesmaids. That same day three men were fatally injured by the bulls, and an old horse, wounded accidentally shot in the head, had to be finished there.
He continues: they are forbidden to those mentioned Moors (with severe penalties) the use of weapons, both in the field, and their houses, except a small knife to cut bread and another to puncture the meat (do not eat meat hunting and all that consumed comes from animals caged, tied enclosed in fences). And to this end the judges will make their home record twice a month.
Also, on our last day of stay in Granada invited the emperor to preside over my Lord with him, in a garden at the foot of the hill of the Alhambra, a Moorish show. Adorned with beautiful pearls and precious stones in necks, ears and arms, and dressed (almost as deacons for the Mass) according to the customs of his land, danced to the sound of flutes, violas and drums, after which three women fifty years and another that fell was about forty and sang while alive and amazing pagan rhythms, while the others clapped rhythmic shouting happily.
After the dance, some berries climbed to the top of the hill and danced on a tightrope stretched between two locations, and then opened her legs with a brazen, as he faces the Emperor, screaming in his native tongue: "Everyone who live here can get to heaven. "
After this performance was given to drinking water.
Also: young women with henna Castilla berries get their nails with a bright orange (they figure) gives a special attraction. In my opinion makes them resemble our miserable tanning is Nuremberg. Also considered shameful for a girl to take even one sip of wine. Therefore, all of water.In drink that city of Granada make all kinds of silk garments, but always black, indelible ink for lack of other colors and are slightly more expensive than in Germany, with the notable exception of Taffeta double, which here is very beautiful. Pearls are also cheap here.
There are also magnificent vineyards and a large winery near the walls of the city. At first, there was no place either in the palace to house the secret of my lord, and for two days we got to sleep on the floor, then the Moors rented white mats, which they demanded a deposit of 15 ducats.
We stayed two weeks in Granada and the July 7, thank God, we continue our journey joyfully.
Another detail: The Emperor's Palace was built by the Moors in the Alhambra hill, within the precincts of the city, and inside you can still see the curious and splendid bathrooms in the Moorish king who bathed with their wives, few of those who had all he wanted: he wanted to but after a bath, sent him an apple.
The water that runs through all the aforementioned palace (which is also a fish pond) also flows through almost all the other houses of the city. The water is unhealthy, and if you drink is easy to get sick from dysentery, but there was no other kind of water, nor wells. "
Why would he make the effort to say the half the Population was "WHITE" Moors. Why not just call them Moors if Whites were the original Moors..??and What/who were the other Moors,
Makes no damn sense..
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
The prominent quaint essential question becomes, what part of Spain and Portugal was Alfonso X talking about?
Lioness or others, can you inform? Thanks in advance.
Alfonso X (10th (nickname)), king of Castilië and León, Born: 23 november 1221, Toledo, Spain Died: 4 april 1284, Sevilla, Spain
Partner in crime: Violante of Aragón (geh. 1246–1284) was Hungarian. Hence, Central European. She was the daughter of James I of Aragon. Hence "Aragon", no kidding.
Childeren: Sancho IV van Castilië, Ferdinand de la Cerda,
Parents: Ferdinand III van Castilië, Beatrix van Hohenstaufen Zus: Eleonora van Castilië
MILITARY HISTORY | RECONQUISTA Reconquista Timeline: Arab Conquest 711 - 754
Posted 22 Oct 2002
710
The Berber General Tariq ibn Ziyad took Tangier (Collins, 1983). Several Muslim expeditions raid across the straits into Spain, including a fairly large one led by a Berber called Tarif ibn Malluq.
Civil war between rival kings in Visigothic Spain; Achila in the north-east, and Roderic in the rest (Collins, 1983).
711 Transductine Promontories
Tariq ibn Ziyad invaded Spain with 7,000 Berber Infantry and 300 Arab Cavalry (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). King Roderic, who was campaigning against the Basques in the north Spain, headed south to face the new threat. Tariq's army, reinforced by a further 5,000 Berber Infantry, defeated 24-30,000 Visigoths (King Roderic) including a large number of cavalry on the Wadi-laqqa (possibly either the Guadalete or Salado rivers) (20 Jul); this was called the battle of the Transductine Promontories by the Christians. The Visigothic wings (under Sisbert and Oppa, disaffected relatives of the previous King) deserted and the centre crumbled with heavy losses. Many Visigoths are killed in the 3 day pursuit, including Roderic. Subsequently all the Berbers are mounted on captured horses. Tariq went on to take Toledo while a detachment under Mugit al-Rumi took Cordoba.
712
10-18,000 Arabs and Syrians arrived in Spain (Heath, 1980).
714
First Muslim campaigns in the lower Ebro (Collins, 1983).
718 or 722 Covadonga
Austerians defeated Muslims at Covadonga (Collins, 1983).
720
Arab conquest of Barcelona and Narbonne (Collins, 1983).
721 Toulouse
A mixed force of Aquitanians and Franks (Duke Eudo) defeated an Arab army (al-Samah) near Toulouse (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). The Franks quickly surround and kill Al-Samah and most of his force for the loss of only 1,500 men. .
725
Muslim raid reached Autun in Francia (Collins, 1983).
729
The Berber leader Munnus rebelled in Cerdanya, but despite being allied with Duke Eudo of Aquitaine, the rebellion was suppressed (Collins, 1983).
732 Tours and Poitiers
Tours
An Arab Army (Abd al-Rahman al-Ghafiqi) defeated a Aquitanian force (Duke Eudo) on the Garonne near Bordeaux (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). The Arabs then set about pillaging Aquitaine.
Poitiers
Eudo rallied Frankish reinforcements (Charles Martel) who caught the Arab raiders near Poitiers (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). Abd al-Rahman covered the retreat of his baggage train for some days, but was eventually forced to stand and fight to protect the loot. In the subsequent battle, the Franks, fighting mainly as infantry, defended high ground against repeated Arab Cavalry attacks. Toward evening Eudo and his Aquitanian Nobles rode around the flank of the Arabs and started looting the baggage train. Some Arab Cavalry moved to defend the baggage but other units, believing the Cavalry are retiring, broke. Confusion spread and Abd al-Rahman was killed by Austrasian spearmen. The Arabs broke when they discovered they were leaderless and left the field. There was no Frankish pursuit. (Arab sources record this as a 2 day battle.)
737
Arabs take Avignon in the Rhone Valley (Collins, 1983).
739-740
Berber revolts occurred in Africa and Spain (Collins, 1983). Rebels in North Africa defeated a Syrian force and kill its commander (Kulthum).
741-742
The 10,000 survivors of Kulthum's force arrived in Spain under a new leader (Talaba ibn Salama) (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). Talaba ibn Salama and the Jordanians settled in Cordoba, Seville got the Homs contingent, the Damascus contingent settled in Elvira, Qinnasrin in Jaen, and Palestine in Algeciras and Medina Sedonia. Civil war erupted between the Syrians and the Spanish Arabs the latter being supported by a contingent of African Arabs under abd al-Rahman ibn Habib.
742-746
Internal conflict continued in Al-Andalus (Collins, 1983).
References
Collins, R. (1983). Early Medieval Spain: Unity in Diversity, 400-1000 [2nd ed.]. NY: St. Martin's Press.
Heath, I. (1980). Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 (2nd ed.). Wargames Research Group.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Son of Ra there are a wide variety of types, that is the answer
It's called ethnic group, I posted to you a list of ethnic groups in the past. You were scratching your head.
Eurocentrism has the tendency to claim people who show slight similarity to Europeans. You love to theorize about these things. However, practically it's completely rubbish.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).
But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?
From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.
As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.
My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.
Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.
Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.
In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote: Figure 1. Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups in Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Samples Binary marker phylogeny of the Y chromosome, showing mutations on the branches of the tree, and shorthand haplogroup names40 immediately beneath. Haplogroups unobserved in any sample are indicated by dashed branches on the tree. Below the phylogeny are given the percentages of chromosomes carrying the observed haplogroup. Abbreviations are as follows: n, sample size; h, Nei’s unbiased estimator of gene diversity. Data on North African populations are from the literature (see footnotes). a Data from Bosch et al.34 b Data from Arredi et al.,47 with haplogroup prediction for hgG. c Subhaplogroups of R1b3 were not typed in the Sephardic Jewish sample.
quote: Figure 2. Haplogroup Distributions in Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Populations Haplogroup profiles of samples from the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands, published North African samples,34,47 and a Sephardic Jewish sample. Sectors in pie charts are colored according to haplogroup in the schematic tree to the right, and sector areas are propor- tional to haplogroup frequency. Sample names, abbreviations, and sizes (within pie charts) are indicated. Subhaplogroups of R1b3 were not typed in the Sephardic Jewish sample.
quote: Figure 4. Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Admixture Proportions among Iberian Peninsula Samples Mean North African, Sephardic Jewish, and Iberian admixture proportions among Iberian samples, based on the mY estimator and on Moroccan, Sephardic Jewish, and Basque parental populations, are represented on a map as shaded bars on bar charts. Error bars indicate standard deviations, and three-letter codes indicate populations, as given in Figure 1.
quote: Figure 6. Diversity of Y-STR Haplotypes Belonging to Haplogroup R1b3 Reduced median network53 containing the eight-locus Y-STR (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II-I, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS439) haplotypes of 767 hgR1b3 chromosomes, from Iberian populations and the Sephardic Jewish and Moroccan parental samples used in admix- ture analysis. Circles represent haplotypes, with area proportional to frequency and colored according to population, as shown in the key. For Iberian data, hgs R1b3b, R1b3d, R1b3f, and R1b3g have been combined into hgR1b3, because these sublineages were not distin- guished in the Sephardic Jewish sample.
Susan M. Adams, Mark A. Jobling et al.
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
quote:Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.
I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.
They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).
But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?
From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.
As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.
My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.
Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.
Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.
In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.
Thanks for answering my question.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.
I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.
They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills.
Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one. [/QB]
how can you continue ignore all the migration many centuries before the 16th century, Carthginians from Lebanon, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, especially Arabs, Sub Saharan Africans?
By 709, all of North Africa was under the control of the Arab caliphate
this is a 13th century manuscipt from Spain. It shows a berber Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco ________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.
from the same book The Cantigas de Santa Maria. book of games section, more Muslims:
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.
how can you continue ignore all the migration many centuries before the 16th century, Carthginians from Lebanon, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, especially Arabs, Sub Saharan Africans? [/QB]
Who said I am ignoring things???
1. I'm specifically talking about Northwest Africa.
2. Minus Carthage, the Maghreb area was not that populated.
3. Where is it stated that the Greeks occupied parts of Northwest Africa? The Greeks didn't extend that far into Africa. Again we're only talking Northwest Africa.
4. I know about Roman occupation in Northwest Africa. But how large was their presence? It seems just military officials.
5. The vandals were mostly a minority and didn't they leave?
6. I thought Arabs just used Northwest Africa as just an outpost?
Most of the areas of Northwest Africa like parts of Morocco and Algeria were not that populated by the times of the Moors. There were very few people living in the coastal region of the Maghreb. Heck dynasties like the Almoravid didn't even originate in the coastal areas, but the Sahara. And the Almoravid came much later.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century?....
Who said I am ignoring things???
The Maghreb is sparsely populated today because most is desert. However there is population density along the coast. On a relative basis these populated parts have been populated centuries before the 16th c
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
2. Minus Carthage, the Maghreb area was not that populated.
Bow you're saying "minus" Carthage At it's height Carthage had half a million people, mainly Phoenicians from Lebanon
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I know about Roman occupation in Northwest Africa. But how large was their presence? It seems just military officials.
Historian Theodore Mommsen estimated that under Hadrian nearly 1/3 of the eastern Namibia population (roughly modern Tunisia) was descended from Roman veterans. The Roman military presence of North Africa was about 28,000 troops and auxiliaries in Namibia and the two Mauretanian provinces.
Also see Cyrenaica and Tripolitania - the must be looked at on a relative basis as per population compared to what was before - sparse poulation of nomads
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
The vandals were mostly a minority and didn't they leave?
6th cent Byzantine scholar Procopius' said that the Vandals and Alans numbered 80,000 when they moved to North Africa, Modern scholar Peter Heather estimates that they could have fielded an army of around 15,000–20,000.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I thought Arabs just used Northwest Africa as just an outpost?
They had armies and three stages of conquest in Africa. Arab Bedouin tribes intermarried with the local berber populations. Examples of these Arab Bedouin tribes migrated into North Africa in the 11th century
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
There were very few people living in the coastal region of the Maghreb. Heck dynasties like the Almoravid didn't even originate in the coastal areas, but the Sahara. And the Almoravid came much later. [/QB]
The coastal regions had the most population density since the drying of the sahara. Libyans had armies large enough to challenge the Egyptians. They were thought to have input form Phoenicians or "Sea People" of across the Mediterranean
Before the Almovarids North Africa was conquered by he Umayyads. In 693 AD, Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan sent an army of 40,000 men, commanded by Hasan ibn al-Nu'man, into Cyrenaica and Tripolitania in order to remove the Byzantine threat to the Umayyads advance in North Africa. Spain was conquered by the Umayyads beginning in 711.
Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs and Arab influence from the north. The growing Arab presence pressed the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.
After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by the Berbers. [u]Several groups of Yemeni Arabs who had been devastating the north of Africa turned south to Mauritania[/u]. Settling in northern Mauritania, they disrupted the caravan trade, causing routes to shift east, which in turn led to the gradual decline of Mauritania's trading towns. One particular Yemeni group, the Bani Hassan, continued to migrate southward until, by the end of the 17th century, they dominated the entire country. The last effort of the Berbers to shake off the Arab yoke was the Mauritanian Thirty Years' War (1644-74), or Sharr Bubba, led by Nasir ad Din, a Lemtuna imam (see Glossary). This Sanhadja war of liberation was, however, unsuccessful; the [u]Berbers were forced to abandon the sword and became vassals to the warrior Arab groups[/u].
Thus, the contemporary social structure of Mauritania can be dated from 1674. The warrior groups or Arabs dominated the Berber groups, who turned to clericalism to regain a degree of ascendancy. At the bottom of the social structure were the slaves, subservient to both warriors and Islamic holy men. [u]All of these groups, whose language was Hassaniya Arabic, became known as Maures[/u]. The bitter rivalries and resentments characteristic of their social structure were later fully exploited by the French.
alTakruri notes: Missing from the essay is the first Arab attack against Ghana which was utterly smashed. A few Arabs fled back north across the Sahara but the majority of the invading forces settled down in the Tagant and the Hodh under suzeriegnty of Ghana where they became the Honethin (sp?)
The Capsians were the last of the hunter gather cultures that ended around 6000 BC. After the drying of the Sahara came North Africa became sparsely populated until the Phoenicians came around 1000-800 BC
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Lioness
The Maghreb is sparsely populated today because most is desert. However there is population density along the coast. On a relative basis these populated parts have been populated centuries before the 16th c
I am not talking about the Sahara part of the Maghreb, but6 the coastal part. The coastal part was mostly sparsely populated, excluding Tunisia which was occupied by Carthage. What I am saying there really wasn't any large cities in the Maghreb during antiquity. There were no large cities in areas like Morocco or Algeria during the times of the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks or Romans. The South(Sahel), became more advanced before the Maghreb. I believe Jari explains everything in more detail here. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006448
Bow you're saying "minus" Carthage At it's height Carthage had half a million people, mainly Phoenicians from Lebanon
How many people did OTHER parts of the Maghreb have??? Again during antiquity, what other parts of the coastal Maghreb have large scale cities like Carthage?
Historian Theodore Mommsen estimated that under Hadrian nearly 1/3 of the eastern Namibia population (roughly modern Tunisia) was descended from Roman veterans. The Roman military presence of North Africa was about 28,000 troops and auxiliaries in Namibia and the two Mauretanian provinces.
Also see Cyrenaica and Tripolitania - the must be looked at on a relative basis as per population compared to what was before - sparse poulation of nomads
Now which area besides Tunisia(Carthage) in the Maghreb has a significant population? Tunisia was already known to the Romans due to Carthage and the Phoenicians. Carthage was in Tunisia and I already know Tunisia has a large population.
Now addressing your post. Were those Romans limited to Tunisia? Because I am talking about the coastal Maghreb as a whole. Did MOST of those Roman soldiers stay or did they return to Rome? I understand they could have intermixed with the locals.
And is 28,000 troops significant? Again I am not talking about Tunisia, but mostly Morocco and Algeria.
6th cent Byzantine scholar Procopius' said that the Vandals and Alans numbered 80,000 when they moved to North Africa, Modern scholar Peter Heather estimates that they could have fielded an army of around 15,000–20,000.
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Vandals expelled from North Africa by the Romans?
They had armies and three stages of conquest in Africa. Arab Bedouin tribes intermarried with the local berber populations. Examples of these Arab Bedouin tribes migrated into North Africa in the 11th century
True.
The coastal regions had the most population density since the drying of the sahara. Libyans had armies large enough to challenge the Egyptians. They were thought to have input form Phoenicians or "Sea People" of across the Mediterranean
Again talking about Northwest Africa. Specifically Morocco and Algeria.
Before the Almovarids North Africa was conquered by he Umayyads. In 693 AD, Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan sent an army of 40,000 men, commanded by Hasan ibn al-Nu'man, into Cyrenaica and Tripolitania in order to remove the Byzantine threat to the Umayyads advance in North Africa. Spain was conquered by the Umayyads beginning in 711.
But what happened to the Umayyads when the Almoravid came? Before the Almoravid's went into the Coastal area and Iberia. The coastal area of the Maghreb was sparsely populated. Berber tribes were so spread out. Most Berber tribes that invaded Iberia came from the South(sahara).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Vandals expelled from North Africa by the Romans?
The Vandals and other Germanic groups took over Roman territories in Europe and North Africa in Carthage (429) They ruled for about a hundred years. The Romans regained control in 533 under the Byzantine Justinian but quickly had trouble controlling it. The Arabs began taking over around 642.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.
the population of the entire world had increased drastically from the 15th c to now but still not too heavy in the green region here:
you can't confuse a sparse population with the proportion of admixture.
If a sparse population of 100 people had 60% foreign admixture a population 10 times that amount> 10,000 might only have 5% foreign admixture.
Was the population of Morocco predominantly indigenous North African from 1-15th centuries?
there are some berber tribes mentioned by the Greeks and Romans (and some of these Greeks and Romans say they originated in Troy, others Persia or other non-African places) but even if they were completely indigenous African there were no civilizations or large settlements of them. After the decertification, the Phoenicians were the first to establish larger settlements, 8th century BC.
As to Greek accounts of local tribes read this, it takes a while>
Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE
Herodotus: The Histories, c. 430 B.C., Book IV. Strabo: Geography, c. 22 A.D., XVII.iii.1-11. Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. 550 A.D. Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.
I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.
They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills.
Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.
Glade you could see it.
I would not say 16th century necessarily. But yes, on the sparsely.
Most of the Magreb you speak of is Rif, mountain region.
More towards the South it becomes dessert. With Oasis.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
Most of the foreign populations remained at the coast, since it's hard to enter beyond the Rif and dessert. Which only indigenous Nomadic pastoral populations are familiar with, such as the Tuareg and Fula.
" During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).
But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?
From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.
As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.
My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.
Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.
Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.
In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.
Jehosfats claims: Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: "All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the? Persian Gulf supported by? free East Africans who had made their? homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years." (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101) -------------------------------- --------------
I question the claim of "jehosafats" that the Zanj revolt was not a slave revolt or that the rebels were "Arabs" of the Persia Gulf. It seems rather shaky. Below is my original challenge to a similar claim- circa 2010. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by markellion: Does anyone think the Zanj in the Zanj rebellion really could have been immigrants and not slaves?
Shabin has some interesting points but his arguments are rightly questioned by others as noted in the reference- (Nigel D. Furlonge "Revisiting the Zanj and Re-Visioning Revolt: Complexities of the Zanj Conflict". Negro History Bulletin) For example he argues that slave labor was not a factor in the economy. This is contradicted by books such as Ronald Segal's "Islam's Black Slaves" which maintains that indeed, the Zanj were employed in a variety of capacities that added significantly to economic output. It is also contradicted by Bernard Lewis' well documented "Race and Slavery in the Middle East."
The salt trade is just one example of how slaves were employed. Indeed in some of the Saharan areas of Africa, black slaves were used by Arab masters to mine salt in brutal conditions. On Zanzibar, Arab masters deployed large numbers of black slaves in the clove plantations. Brutal Arab exploitation of black labor in forced conditions is a long-standing historical fact. See http://www.nathanielturner.com/blackenslavementar abeuropean.htm for a detailed comparison between Arab and European slavery which discusses these issues.
Shabin's argument that since Islam had black slaves as well as white/other slaves then race was not a factor minimizes the fact that it was the black slaves that bore the brunt of the miserable working conditions, and it was they that supplied the muscle, bone and sinew for the revolt, not white slaves. Also the Zanj rebellion was only the biggest and most successful of a SERIES of rebellions by black slaves in the area. These black revolts were nothing new for the time. Just because there were other revolts for various reasons among other groups does not change the fact that it was black slaves who staged their own revolt.
We can always say "race was not a factor" by drawing a narrow definition and comparing it to the 18th and 19th century black-white clashes. But if there is no documented Zanj Toussaint L'overture, the bottom line is that it was still rebellion by oppresssed people who happened to be be black. No about of definition or redefinition or revisionism will change that fact.
Shabin's notion that the revolt participants were mostly Arabs and "free" East Africans who lived in Iraq is contradicted by solid documentary evidence to the contrary. His attempt to minimize the black component with the notion that slaves were not important due to the economic importance of trade, agains seems to ignore the fact that the very same "trade" involved black bodies. If "trade" was important, black bodies made up a significant slice of it, not only in Iraq but in the Arab world as well. The prophet Muhammed himself traded in slaves, and in his city, holy Mecca, it was black bodies that did the dirtiest work: QUOTE: “shining pitch black Negro slaves” were used in Mecca for “the hardest work of building, quarrying, etc.” —[Lewis Race and Slavery in the Middle East]
Shabin argues that more than the Zanj were involved. Of course. This is History 101 with many revolts. A number of revolts in Haiti for example sometimes involved more privleged creole or "colored" groups as opposed to the darker blacks. When the main black revolt broke out, it too got support from sources other than strictly blacks, like the Spanish authorities in Santo Domingo at times for example. Toussaint himself fought for a time on the French side, and was in turn opposed by mulatto leaders who collaborated with the French. Yes, revolts and rebellions can be complex things. Haiti is of course better docunmented and fits the modern black vs white mold, but to say that because of these other complexities that the Haitian Revolution was not a black thing would be a travesty of history. It is a similar travesty of history to attempt to "whitewash" or "Arabize" the Zanj Rebellion. It was called the Zanj Rebellion for a reason, and the bottom line again, is that oppressed slaves who were mostly black, rose for their freedom. Whether they were joined by a variety of allies with other agendas does not change this basic bottom line.
Shabin also argues that the well organized army of the Zanj showed others were involved. Yes of course, but among those "others" were the well-trained black contingents that defected from the defeated caliphal armies to join the Zanj. No matter how much folks try to "whitewash" or "Arabize" the Zanj, those pesky negroes keep filling the picture. Shabin's "others involved" argument is ultimately unconvincing. It should be noted that a good portion of the evidence for the Zanj as a "black" revolt comes from Arab writers openly contemptuous of the black freedom fighters. QUOTE: "Tabari and Masudi clearly represent the Zanj as vile, heathenous, aggressive, and animal-like. Masudi is especially negative in his depictions of the Zanj."
Nevertheless, despite attempts to dehumanize them by Arab historians, it is a fact that the black fighters and yes, their allies, but primarily the black fighters, kicked ass for 14 years, defeating several caliphal Arab armies sent against them, almost capturing Bagdhad one of the major cities in Islam at the time, and even invading and conquering some areas in Iran. The bottom line is who they were, and what they did.
The Zanj have always made Muslim apologists nervous because their case contradicts the simplistic narrative of a kinder, gentler Islamic handling of black folk that those evil, white Christians. But a sober reading of history shatters this simplistic picture of Arab Muslim goodness. Black nationalist writers have long debunked this myth, pointing to the destruction of black civilization and culture by Arab Muslims on a variety of fronts. We no longer give the white academy and their allies a free pass when it comes to ancient Egypt. Neither should we give Arab Muslims a free pass when it comes to the negative role they have sometimes played in black history.
Both Noldeke's and Shabin's interpretations continue to be questioned. For instance, Popovic suggests that the Zanj revolt could be characterized in several ways from primarily a slave revolt to an ethnic or class conscious struggle. As Popovic explains, there is no reason why all motivating factors did not operate simultaneously. Merchants and traders concerned with preserving their economic interests likely supported Ali. b. Muhammad as he tried to topple an Abbasid government they saw as infringing on their "rights." Enslaved Africans referred to as the Zanj likely rebelled against the degradation and oppression they experienced at the hands of their owners. Free Africans residing in Iraq possibly conceived the conflict in racial terms and took the opportunity to act on behalf of their enslaved brethren and to advance their own interests. In addition, some Arabs and Africans probably believed that once the enslaved converted to Islam, it was their obligation to free the Zanj from slavery. Some if not all of these factors were at work during the revolt. --Nigel D. Furlonge "Revisiting the Zanj and Re-Visioning Revolt: Complexities of the Zanj Conflict". Negro History Bulletin- 1999
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
Blessings Brother.
Hit the Nail on the Head. Unwise people would come and see these Fakerabs claim Islam for Blacks yet NEVER even say ANYTHING about how fakerabs were enslaving, raping and murdering there "brothers" all in the name of Muhammad and earlier then What euros did.
Remember How Diop and Obenga schooled the racists in Unesco and the Whites ADMITTED that Egypt Was not Eurasian. It was the FAKERABS who denied Blacks Egypt. One from Egypt and Sudan said Blacks had nothing to do with Egypt even though Diop and Obenga refuted them every step of the way.
Now fakerabs want to claim the Zanj rebellion?? REally. Anything of value these Euros and fakerabs want to keep for themselves even if its and slave revolt. Wonder if these racists even know that 1st Slaves were the Slavs. When they call Blacks "abeed" I wonder what they call Whites. I also laugh at these racists because there Beloved Ishmael was Part Egyptian from Hagar. That's why no matter how much truth you show them they will DENY DENY etc. Because admitting that Ishamel was half Black would shatter there superiority complex.
I would rather support Persians before fakerabs because I remember AN person posting where an Iran man claimed to be "brown" not white(shocking). I also go downtown and see my Persian brothers rocking Dat AFRO with pride. Wish Black woman would see AFRO as an beautiful thing and stop killing there hair. Rather an AFROcan then an dead hair woman.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
lol.. amen brother...
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Jehosfats claims: Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: "All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the? Persian Gulf supported by? free East Africans who had made their? homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years." (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101)
Hummmm,
Al-Jahiz, Book of the Glory of the Blacks Over the Whites
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."
That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.
Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.
I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.
They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills.
Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.
Glade you could see it.
I would not say 16th century necessarily. But yes, on the sparsely.
Most of the Magreb you speak of is Rif, mountain region.
More towards the South it becomes dessert. With Oasis.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
Most of the foreign populations remained at the coast, since it's hard to enter beyond the Rif and dessert. Which only indigenous Nomadic pastoral populations are familiar with, such as the Tuareg and Fula.
" During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
Good post. So what you're basically saying is that the mountains acted as a barrier to outsiders, which is why the population of the Maghreb were so small. Which again agrees with my theory.
Its funny and ironic, because Eurocentrics always LOVE to say the Sahara acted as a barrier(when there wasn't always a desert), but also we have this....
Using the Holocene biogeography and palaeohydrology of the Sahara as an analogue for the MIS5 humid period, it is likely that an interconnected waterway would have been available for faunal and human dispersal. This humid period corresponds very closely with the age of the first modern human occupation of the North African coast (45) and the Levant (46) by sub-Saharan populations, who may have been crossing the Sahara at this time (9)."
"Reanalysis of the Saharan zoogeography (SI Appendix, Section 1 and Table S1) suggests that many animals, including water-dependant creatures such as fish and amphibians, dispersed across the Sahara recently. For example, 25 North African animal species have a spatial distribution with population centers both north and south of the Sahara and small relict populations in central regions. This distribution suggests a trans-Saharan dispersal in the past, with subsequent local isolation of central Saharan populations during the more recent arid phase. If a diverse range of species (including fish) can cross the Sahara, it is impossible to envisage the Sahara functioning as barrier to hominin dispersal." Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458.full.pdf
How come Eurocentrics never talk about the mountains acting as a barrier???
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).
But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?
From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.
As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.
My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.
Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.
Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.
In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.
Good post.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
After the drying of the Sahara the prime place to live in the Maghreb was along the coast where there was a fish food supply. When foreign settlers cames in berbers were forced out of these areas and moved into rockier more mountainous areas. Further South was pure desert, a barrier between the Maghreb and the Sahel. The mountain were not a barrier. You could go around them and go further south into the desert if you wanted to.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Using the Holocene biogeography and palaeohydrology of the Sahara as an analogue for the MIS5 humid period, it is likely that an interconnected waterway would have been available for faunal and human dispersal. This humid period corresponds very closely with the age of the first modern human occupation of the North African coast (45) and the Levant (46) by sub-Saharan populations, who may have been crossing the Sahara at this time (9)."
"Reanalysis of the Saharan zoogeography (SI Appendix, Section 1 and Table S1) suggests that many animals, including water-dependant creatures such as fish and amphibians, dispersed across the Sahara recently. For example, 25 North African animal species have a spatial distribution with population centers both north and south of the Sahara and small relict populations in central regions. This distribution suggests a trans-Saharan dispersal in the past, with subsequent local isolation of central Saharan populations during the more recent arid phase. If a diverse range of species (including fish) can cross the Sahara, it is impossible to envisage the Sahara functioning as barrier to hominin dispersal."
--Drake et al 2010. Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert. PNAS 2011, vol. 108, no 2. 458–462
^^Good reference, undermining certain claims re the "barrier" of the Sahara, as if it were some sort of neat "apartheid" line in Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Obvioulsy the Sahara is a barrier. You have to go back the holocene period for it not to be a barrier. Egypt is a different case because it runas along a river
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Obvioulsy the Sahara is a barrier. You have to go back the holocene period for it not to be a barrier. Egypt is a different case because it runas along a river
Using the Holocene biogeography and palaeohydrology of the Sahara as an analogue for the MIS5 humid period, it is likely that an interconnected waterway would have been available for faunal and human dispersal. This humid period corresponds very closely with the age of the first modern human occupation of the North African coast (45) and the Levant (46) by sub-Saharan populations, who may have been crossing the Sahara at this time (9)."
"Reanalysis of the Saharan zoogeography (SI Appendix, Section 1 and Table S1) suggests that many animals, including water-dependant creatures such as fish and amphibians, dispersed across the Sahara recently. For example, 25 North African animal species have a spatial distribution with population centers both north and south of the Sahara and small relict populations in central regions. This distribution suggests a trans-Saharan dispersal in the past, with subsequent local isolation of central Saharan populations during the more recent arid phase. If a diverse range of species (including fish) can cross the Sahara, it is impossible to envisage the Sahara functioning as barrier to hominin dispersal." Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458.full.pdf Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
wet period, dry period, do you realize ther was climate change in the Sahara? and an over 2000 year gap of evidence for huiman settlement during the transition.
Look at the Sahara today. It's a barrier and has been for several thousand years
Now go back in time to when it wasn't a barrier.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Which 2000 years in particular?
It's preposterous that littoral Northwest Africa was ever not inhabited by human beings. It's climate has been clement enough during the entire Holocene.
Again which 2000 years in particular?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
After the drying of the Sahara the prime place to live in the Maghreb was along the coast where there was a fish food supply. When foreign settlers cames in berbers were forced out of these areas and moved into rockier more mountainous areas. Further South was pure desert, a barrier between the Maghreb and the Sahel. The mountain were not a barrier. You could go around them and go further south into the desert if you wanted to.
It's not a barrier to the local population as I mentioned before. It's a barrier to foreigners, such as yourself.
Anyway,
The Rif,
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Obvioulsy the Sahara is a barrier. You have to go back the holocene period for it not to be a barrier. Egypt is a different case because it runas along a river
Using the Holocene biogeography and palaeohydrology of the Sahara as an analogue for the MIS5 humid period, it is likely that an interconnected waterway would have been available for faunal and human dispersal. This humid period corresponds very closely with the age of the first modern human occupation of the North African coast (45) and the Levant (46) by sub-Saharan populations, who may have been crossing the Sahara at this time (9)."
"Reanalysis of the Saharan zoogeography (SI Appendix, Section 1 and Table S1) suggests that many animals, including water-dependant creatures such as fish and amphibians, dispersed across the Sahara recently. For example, 25 North African animal species have a spatial distribution with population centers both north and south of the Sahara and small relict populations in central regions. This distribution suggests a trans-Saharan dispersal in the past, with subsequent local isolation of central Saharan populations during the more recent arid phase. If a diverse range of species (including fish) can cross the Sahara, it is impossible to envisage the Sahara functioning as barrier to hominin dispersal." Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458.full.pdf
Morocco is divided into 4 different feature of the natural landscape.
quote:
Rif Region The beautiful Rif is a mountain range that extends from Tangier in the west to the Moulouya River in the east and the Mediterranean sea in the north to the river of Ouargha in the south. The mountain region derives its name from the Berber word, arif. They belong to the Alboran Sea region but are not a part of the Atlas Mountains. The region is well known for its geographic diversity, as it is home to mountains, the sea, rivers, and hills. Major cities in the region are Nador, Al Hoceima, Ajdir and Taza, among others.
The Rif was initially inhabited by the Berbers and was later invaded by the Phoenicians in the 3rd century BC, followed by the Romans and the Byzantines. The high plateau of Eastern Morocco: In the rain shadow region of the Atlas chain lies the broad valley of Moulouya. It stretches for about 530 kms rights from the Middle Atlas and goes right up to the Mediterranean Sea. Set to the southeast of the Atlas Mountains, this is a plateau formation at an altitude of 1300m (3900 feet). It stretches in the eastern direction to the Moroccan-Algerian border. It abruptly drops to the southwest and make a smoother transition toward the coastline. There are different small towns like Asni, Tin Mal that you can check out. The artificial lake Lalla Takerkoust created due the hydroelectric dam serves as a good source for the villages around it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Obvioulsy the Sahara is a barrier. You have to go back the holocene period for it not to be a barrier. Egypt is a different case because it runas along a river
It's not a barrier to the local population as I mentioned before. It's a barrier to foreigners, such as yourself.
And Egypt is constructed in a similar way. This is why foreigners had a hard time entering the South (Upper) Egypt.
Do not speak of things you are clueless about. As you already are a clown.
Sand dunes and hills, the way they are shaped etc... are the true markers to Tuareg, Fula etc...
Older source,
Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 17, 124–142 (1998) Article no. AA980320
Early African Pastoralism: View from Dakhleh Oasis (South Central Egypt)
Mary M. A. McDonald
The late prehistoric archaeological sequence from Dakhleh Oasis, South Central Egypt, is examined for evidence on the origins and development of pastoralism in northeastern Africa, under the dry but fluctuating environmental conditions of the early to mid-Holocene. Around 8800 B.P., relatively sedentary groups of the Masara cultural unit have a broad-based
subsistence
system but no sign of food production. Herding appears ca. 7000 B.P., at a time of increased and possibly less seasonal rainfall, on large late Bashendi A sites with stone-built structures and a still-diversified food economy. With the drying trend after 6500 B.P., mobile Bashendi B cattle and goat herders continue to aggregate in the oasis for a millennium, still utilizing a variety of resources. More settled Sheikh Muftah groups occupy the oasis lowlands until Old Kingdom times. Throughout the sequence, the early pastoralism of Dakhleh seems more African than West Asian in character.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Which 2000 years in particular?
It's preposterous that littoral Northwest Africa was ever not inhabited by human beings. It's climate has been clement enough during the entire Holocene.
Again which 2000 years in particular?
evidence beyond perhaps two or three skeletons of human settlement in the Maghreb after the Capsian and before the Phoenicians Also 1000 years after the Ubaid in Arabia
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: wet period, dry period, do you realize ther was climate change in the Sahara? and an over 2000 year gap of evidence for huiman settlement during the transition.
Look at the Sahara today. It's a barrier and has been for several thousand years
Now go back in time to when it wasn't a barrier.
Even if the Sahara was a barrier(which it was NOT), my source clearly states the first people to occupied the coast of Northern Africa were Africans themselves. You act as if Africans were not living in coastal area before the Neolithic.
But more importantly. Lets get down to business...
Until very recently, most researchers studying the origins of Homo sapiens focused on the fossils of East Africa and the sophisticated tools and ornaments of famed South African sites such as Blombos Cave. Few scientists thought that much of evolutionary significance had gone on in North Africa, or that the region's big-toothed, somewhat archaic-looking hominins might be closely related to the ancestors of many living people. Now, thanks to new excavations and more accurate dating, North Africa boasts unequivocal signs of modern human behavior as early as anywhere else in the world, including South Africa. Climate reconstructions and fossil studies now suggest that the region was more hospitable during key periods than once thought. The data suggest that the Sahara Desert was a land of lakes and rivers about 130,000 years ago, when moderns first left Africa for sites in what is today Israel. And new studies of hominin fossils suggest some strong resemblances—and possible evolutionary connections—between North African specimens and fossils representing migrations out of Africa between 130,000 and 40,000 years ago. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6013/20
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Troll Patrol Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Delusional one, the density is low because the region isn't as fertile.
However, the population of the region always has resided there. Go figure.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I've said many times before the first inhabitnats of North Africa were indigenous hunter forager Africans of the earlier green period when the land could sustain a lot more vegetation.
The Sahara is not an absolute barrier to trade. After the camel was intoduced it was possble to transport across the desert. The Sahara is a barrier to large numbers of people settling in it due to drying that occured several thousand years ago.
There is no eveidence that significant numbers of people remained living in the Maghreb after the Capsians and before the Phoenicians, that's a couple thousands years.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I've said many times before the first inhabitnats of North Africa were indigenous hunter forager Africans of the earlier green period when the land could sustain a lot more vegetation.
The Sahara is not an absolute barrier to trade. After the camel was intoduced it was possble to transport across the desert. The Sahara is a barrier to large numbers of people settling in it due to drying that occured several thousand years ago.
There is no eveidence that significant numbers of people remained living in Africa after the Capsians and before the Phoenicians, that's a couple thousands years.
^^^That was in the middle of the Sahara btw.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
Of course what lioness and cohorts claim is delusional Eurocentric nonsense.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^^ Awesome post. Yeah there was always trade going in and out of the Sahara. It was basically an highway at that time. It was certainly not a barrier. But I believe Lioness said she does not disagree that the Sahara was a barrier to trade.
Also...Please correct me if I am wrong. But you're basically proving like you stated that the mountains were a barrier to outsiders but not the locals? With that post.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I've said many times before the first inhabitnats of North Africa were indigenous hunter forager Africans of the earlier green period when the land could sustain a lot more vegetation.
The Sahara is not an absolute barrier to trade. After the camel was intoduced it was possble to transport across the desert. The Sahara is a barrier to large numbers of people settling in it due to drying that occured several thousand years ago.
There is no eveidence that significant numbers of people remained living in the Maghreb after the Capsians and before the Phoenicians, that's a couple thousands years.
Dumbo, people (communities) actually live in the Sahara, spanning from east to west. These communities always have lived in the region when it was and wasn't a desert. What the hell do you know? With your so called expertise.
You are too dumb to understand anything. It's that simple. Sitting there on your dumb behind typing nonsense about people you don't know nothing about.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
People really need to be specific about WHICH PART of the Sahara desert they're even talking about. All of Northern Sudan and Niger are in the Sahara. YET people in both the countries in LARGE populations. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^^ Awesome post. Yeah there was always trade going in and out of the Sahara. It was basically an highway at that time. It was certainly not a barrier. But I believe Lioness said she does not disagree that the Sahara was a barrier to trade.
Also...Please correct me if I am wrong. But you're basically proving like you stated that the mountains were a barrier to outsiders but not the locals? With that post.
Logic tells that if they trade(d) with each other, it means they had no (is) barrier.
Yes, the Rif mountains were and are a barrier to outsiders and not to the locals.
I have posted images.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: People really need to be specific about WHICH PART of the Sahara desert they're even talking about. All of Northern Sudan and Niger are in the Sahara. YET people in both the countries in LARGE populations.
Countries aren't important here, those borders were created by colonialists. During classic times indigenous people had their own territories and respected borders.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^I know that. My point is those countries are mostly in the Sahara, yet those countries have a significant large population of people. It defeats the claim of the Sahara being completely uninhabitable.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^I know that. My point is those countries are mostly in the Sahara, yet those countries have a significant large population of people. It defeats the claim of the Sahara being completely uninhabitable.
Yes, they do now as it was during ancient times and the relative recent pre-colonial as well as post colonial.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Agreed...
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Agreed...
See, when delusional eurocentrics write that the Sahara is and was a barrier, they are actually right. Because it was and still is a barrier to them.
They are self-absorbed so when they speak or write its always from a point of selfishness, egocentrism and self interest. It's a barrier to use, so therefor we declare it's a barrier. Typical a colonial mindset.
Fortunately not all white/ european people are that stupid,
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Obvioulsy the Sahara is a barrier. You have to go back the holocene period for it not to be a barrier. Egypt is a different case because it runas along a river
"Obviously" what" This is obviously bogus you mean. It was never a barrier to tropical Africans moving back and forth as the archaeological record shows. And the "holocene" era goes back to 12,000 BC- since when was the Sahara a "barrier" at that time? To the contrary people were moving within and out of the Saharan zone even during the later Regionalization phase which featured continuing rains and temporary lakes. And while movement decreased as aridity increased in later phases, the Sahara was never a "barrier" to tropical Africans. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
And Egypt is not just a river- part of Egypt too is incorporated by the belt of the Sahara.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I hate strawe man threads like this., Somebody says Eureocentrics say this and that but they have no quotes. Then everybody comes in cheerleading, "yeah those Eurocentrics sure are are stupid"
The **** is boring and predictable.
If you want to do something worthwhile first find a Eureocentic quote to take apart, otherwise it's just people patting each other on the back, "we killed the straw man we just made"
I challenge somebody to find an actual recent piece of writing that says something wrong about the Sahara
but yall want to ego trip on "barrier" for 5 hours
If the Sahara has never been a barrier then what is your point coming out of that? what is the relevance?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Strawman thread??? What??? You did not have to come and comment in this thread in the first place.
It is a known fact that some Eurocentrics claim the Sahara desert was always a barrier. Why? Because they obviously want to separate North Africa from Sub Sahara Africa. Stop acting in denial just because people do not agree with your opinion.
And no we are not talking about actual studies that state the Sahara was always a barrier(if any exist). We're talking about regular Eurocentrics on the internet, who make such claims. This thread wasn't even about the Sahara desert. YOU'RE the one who brought it up in this first place.
Does the title of this thread say Sahara desert? No.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
now explain what the importance is of establishing that the Sahara is not a barrier Everybody knows there were caravans.
These were based on using oxen and camels.
The mountains of the Magheb weere a barrier for the Europeans. They couldn't figure out how to climb them or go around them so they couldln't go and plunder the sand on the other side
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
We're talking about regular Eurocentrics on the internet, who make such claims. This thread wasn't even about the Sahara desert. YOU'RE the one who brought it up in this first place.
then quote it, instead of making up what specific nobodies on the internet said,
then you hear somebody saying "Afrocentics say....."
and then somebody steps in "what Afrocentric said that?"
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Why? Because they obviously want to separate North Africa from Sub Sahara Africa.
don't waste time with word semantics look at the haplogroups in the two regions
But what about the supercool Tuaregs with blue turbans, weren't they always in the desert? Yeah the same ones who have haratin slaves to this day and burnt up the manuscipts at Timbuktu
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I hate strawe man threads like this., Somebody says Eureocentrics say this and that but they have no quotes. Then everybody comes in cheerleading, "yeah those Eurocentrics sure are are stupid"
The **** is boring and predictable.
If you want to do something worthwhile first find a Eureocentic quote to take apart, otherwise it's just people patting each other on the back, "we killed the straw man we just made"
I challenge somebody to find an actual recent piece of writing that says something wrong about the Sahara
but yall want to ego trip on "barrier" for 5 hours
If the Sahara has never been a barrier then what is your point coming out of that? what is the relevance?
You are a delusional Eurocentric with euro babble.
Your braincells are a barrier to critical thinking.
You have never set foot in any of the places, you dunce. So STFU!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: now explain what the importance is of establishing that the Sahara is not a barrier Everybody knows there were caravans.
These were based on using oxen and camels.
The mountains of the Magheb weere a barrier for the Europeans. They couldn't figure out how to climb them or go around them so they couldln't go and plunder the sand on the other side
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
We're talking about regular Eurocentrics on the internet, who make such claims. This thread wasn't even about the Sahara desert. YOU'RE the one who brought it up in this first place.
then quote it, instead of making up what specific nobodies on the internet said,
then you hear somebody saying "Afrocentics say....."
and then somebody steps in "what Afrocentric said that?"
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Why? Because they obviously want to separate North Africa from Sub Sahara Africa.
don't waste time with word semantics look at the haplogroups in the two regions
But what about the supercool Tuaregs with blue turbans, weren't they always in the desert? Yeah the same ones who have haratin slaves to this day and burnt up the manuscipts at Timbuktu
Delusional one, long before camels were introduced to the region people of the region roamed the region. Whether desert or not.
You have no argument so you how to resort to slaves possession with no prove and clueless rubbish like that.
The Haplotypes deal with ethnographics. Delusional one. Population genetics doesn't speak of an overall hall. It merely speaks of a "populations" a select group of people. Delusional one.
"ABC NEWS: AL QAEDA DESTROYS TIMBUKTU SHRINES – MOROCCO, US URGE INTERNATIONAL ACTION"
Since you are so absorbed with slaves, look at European sex slaves, mainly from Central Europe.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Obvioulsy the Sahara is a barrier. You have to go back the holocene period for it not to be a barrier. Egypt is a different case because it runas along a river
"Obviously" what" This is obviously bogus you mean. It was never a barrier to tropical Africans moving back and forth as the archaeological record shows. And the "holocene" era goes back to 12,000 BC- since when was the Sahara a "barrier" at that time? To the contrary people were moving within and out of the Saharan zone even during the later Regionalization phase which featured continuing rains and temporary lakes. And while movement decreased as aridity increased in later phases, the Sahara was never a "barrier" to tropical Africans. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
And Egypt is not just a river- part of Egypt too is incorporated by the belt of the Sahara.
Consign,
"From about 65,000 years ago until about 12,000 years ago the Western Desert was hyper-arid, at least as dry as today and perhaps even drier. Changes began when the summer rains of tropical Africa began to move northward, bringing sufficient moisture for variety of sahelian grasses, tress, and bushes to grow and for a few small animals to exit, mostly hares and small gazelle, but also small carnivores. Even with the summer rains, it was still very dry with an annual rainfall no more than 10-15 cm. There were times of serious droughts, some of which resulted in the abandonment of the desert for extended periods.
The earliest (11,000-9300) settlements composed of seasonal camps of cattle-herding and ceramic-using people. These cattle must have been domestic, as they could not have existed in the arid landscape without human assistance. In a manner similar to that of central Africa today, cattle may have functioned as walking larders, which provided milk and blood. Meat may have been reserved for ceremonial occasions. Cattle also provided prestige and may have been major agents in the stratification of nomad society, as they are today in Central Africa. These early people probably came into the desert after the summer rains from farther south or from the Nile Valley in search of pasture; in the fall when the surface water in the playa dried up they had to return to the Nile or to better watered area in the south."
I have no idea why that lying Eurocentric asshole keeps irritating the same delusional claims. When it's obviously not true.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Hmm good reference- there is also the nomadic angle. And it was those Nabata Playa folk that contributed numerous core elements making up Egyptian civ.
QUOTE(s): "a critical factor in the rise of social complexity and the subsequent emergence of the Egyptian state in Upper Egypt (Hoffman 1979; Hassan 1988). If so, Egypt owes a major debt to those early pastoral groups in the Sahara; they may have provided Egypt with many of those features that still distinguish it from its neighbors to the east." Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 17, 97-123 (1998), "Nabta Playa and Its Role in Northeastern African Prehistory," Fred Wendorf and Romuald Schild.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
then quote it, instead of making up what specific nobodies on the internet said,
then you hear somebody saying "Afrocentics say....."
and then somebody steps in "what Afrocentric said that?"
I don't have to because this thread was not originally about this. Again YOU were the one who brought up the Sahara not me.
don't waste time with word semantics No one is playing semantics
look at the haplogroups in the two regions
Yeah I did look. And what I see is E-M81 being dominate clade in Northwest African males. And guess what? That clade is of African origins. The only thing thats significantly Eurasian is their mtDNA, yet their mtDNA is highly diverse.
We do know that Haplogroup A1 is the oldest haplogroup found in Northwest Africa. Find me a haplogroup older than that. Just proves the Sahara desert was never a barrier.
But what about the supercool Tuaregs with blue turbans, weren't they always in the desert? Yeah the same ones who have haratin slaves to this day and burnt up the manuscipts at Timbuktu
1. The Tuaregs did not burn the manuscripts. They were actually against that. Those were Al Qaeda rebels(who were not even from Mali) who were doing that stuff. They even betrayed the Tuareg rebels. Heck most Tuaregs never even wanted to split from Mali, but just wanted fairness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQBuY5g9twE
2. BS, yes Tuaregs still have slaves. But they weren't the only group who had slaves. Mandinkas and Fulanis also had slaves.
What are you trying to prove with the Tauregs.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Yeah I did look. And what I see is E-M81 being dominate clade in Northwest African males. And guess what? That clade is of African origins. The only thing thats significantly Eurasian is their mtDNA, yet their mtDNA is highly diverse.
the fact that M81 is at high frequencies in North Africa but not in Sub Saharan Africa shows a divide between the regions aka African diversity If you look at the terrain there is a large desert between these two regions which is very sparsely populated. The Tuaregs for instance, live under some the most difficult environmental conditions in the world
The people who destroyed the manuscipts along with many other monuments were the Tuareg group Ansar Dine led by Iyad Ag Ghaly, one of the most prominent leaders of the Tuareg rebellion in the 1990s. Ironically of the Tuaregs rebel groups the most militant Islamic ones don't want a separate state. They just want Sharia law in their territory.
The Tuaregs separtists, the MNLA, who actually want a separate state are Muslim but not the radical Islam muslims. Things are not as simple as they seem
And the the Al-Qaeda group in the region is AQIM (Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb) is led by Algerian Arabs but also includes Tuaregs and Moroccans. and they were not the group destoying the manuscipts, they are more interested in bombing embassies and profiteering from kidnapping tourists for ransom
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Yeah I did look. And what I see is E-M81 being dominate clade in Northwest African males. And guess what? That clade is of African origins. The only thing thats significantly Eurasian is their mtDNA, yet their mtDNA is highly diverse.
the fact that M81 is at high frequencies in North Africa but not in Sub Saharan Africa shows a divide between the regions aka African diversity If you look at the terrain there is a large desert between these two regions which is very sparsely populated. The Tuaregs for instance, live under some the most difficult environmental conditions in the world
The people who destroyed the manuscipts along with many other monuments were the Tuareg group Ansar Dine led by Iyad Ag Ghaly, one of the most prominent leaders of the Tuareg rebellion in the 1990s. Ironically of the Tuaregs rebel groups the most militant Islamic ones don't want a separate state. They just want Sharia law in their territory.
The Tuaregs separtists, the MNLA, who actually want a separate state are Muslim but not the radical Islam muslims. Things are not as simple as they seem
And the the Al-Qaeda group in the region is AQIM (Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb) is led by Algerian Arabs but also includes Tuaregs and Moroccans. and they were not the group destoying the manuscipts, they are more interested in bombing embassies and profiteering from kidnapping tourists for ransom
You are delusional, the Tuareg span from the Sahel/ Southern Sahara to the Northern part of the Sahara. And certainly also at the so called sub Sahara. A term created by delusional Europeans/ eurocentrics.
The reason why, genography ethnographics (tribalization) are relative selective measures. E-M81 is regional to Northwest Africa. Not to Northeast Africa, so by your logic there was and is a barrier along the North African Mediterranean coast.
You keep typing nonsense about people you don't know nothing about. Typical Eurocentrism. Your pathetic attempts are hilarious. You're a fake African American black women impostor.
quote: The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan
--Viktor Černý
quote: The remarkable archaeological site, dating back 10,000 years and called Gobero after the Tuareg name for the area, was brimming with skeletons of humans and animals — including large fish and crocodiles. Gobero is hidden away within Niger’s forbidding Ténéré Desert, known to Tuareg nomads as a “desert within a desert.”
The Kiffian & Tenerean Occupation Of Gobero, Niger: Perhaps The Largest Collection Of Early-Mid Holocene People In Africa
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
Yeah I did look. And what I see is E-M81 being dominate clade in Northwest African males. And guess what? That clade is of African origins. The only thing thats significantly Eurasian is their mtDNA, yet their mtDNA is highly diverse.
the fact that M81 is at high frequencies in North Africa but not in Sub Saharan Africa shows a divide between the regions aka African diversity If you look at the terrain there is a large desert between these two regions which is very sparsely populated. The Tuaregs for instance, live under some the most difficult environmental conditions in the world
The people who destroyed the manuscipts along with many other monuments were the Tuareg group Ansar Dine led by Iyad Ag Ghaly, one of the most prominent leaders of the Tuareg rebellion in the 1990s. Ironically of the Tuaregs rebel groups the most militant Islamic ones don't want a separate state. They just want Sharia law in their territory.
The Tuaregs separtists, the MNLA, who actually want a separate state are Muslim but not the radical Islam muslims. Things are not as simple as they seem
And the the Al-Qaeda group in the region is AQIM (Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb) is led by Algerian Arabs but also includes Tuaregs and Moroccans. and they were not the group destoying the manuscipts, they are more interested in bombing embassies and profiteering from kidnapping tourists for ransom
The Al-Qaeda embeds all kinds of ethnicities. Even white Americans. Don't be surprised, dullard. Look at Syria today, loads of youngsters from Holland and Belgium (including Native white Dutch and Belgium's) moved over there to fight for "a cause". Whatever that may be?
And it seems there are quite a few barriers in Europe. According to your "logic"
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Hmm good reference- there is also the nomadic angle. And it was those Nabata Playa folk that contributed numerous core elements making up Egyptian civ.
QUOTE(s): "a critical factor in the rise of social complexity and the subsequent emergence of the Egyptian state in Upper Egypt (Hoffman 1979; Hassan 1988). If so, Egypt owes a major debt to those early pastoral groups in the Sahara; they may have provided Egypt with many of those features that still distinguish it from its neighbors to the east." Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 17, 97-123 (1998), "Nabta Playa and Its Role in Northeastern African Prehistory," Fred Wendorf and Romuald Schild.
And then there was this:
The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara
The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara.
The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes, OK I see the thread, thanks. Looks like Jehosaphats is mentioning some of the same info on that thread. I'm glad he has the staying power he has had there as they sure need some black folk on there.
"Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: 'All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years.' (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101)"
Take a look into this one:
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
What comes out of most studies about Tuareg (and Berber) is:
1) Heterogeneity. Not all Tuareg have the same population genetic structure
2) Mostly African hg on the male side, and a large non-African hg proportion on the female side (from different geographic origin populations).
3) Genetic drift effect drastically changing the ancient population structure among those populations.
For example, Tuareg in Mali (Tgos) are 100% African on the male side (ABE hg) but only 28.5% African (L hg) thus 71.4% non-African (HUVM) on the female side. MtDNA haplogroups like H and L didn't originate in the same region, among the same population.
Taking from: Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools (2010)
In the same study, Tuareg in Niger are determined to be 66.7% African on the Male side (ABE hg) and on the female side 80.6% African (L hg), that is of course 19.4% non-African on the female side (HUVM).
Although even real geneticists sometimes consider M1 to be African, sometimes not, but their proportion is smaller.
Maybe the Tuareg in Niger, having more African hg, are, while admixed, closer to the original "unadmixed" Tuareg or maybe on the contrary their African Hg are more recent.
In 2 other studies ( First Genetic Insight into Libyan Tuaregs: A Maternal Perspective and Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: a genetic survey of their paternal heritage ), we got:
And Y-DNA of Libyan Tuareg, African E=91.4% Non-African R+other=8.5%
Although Libyan Tuareg show a low level of haplotype and nucleotide diversity (one of the lowest in Africa according to study). Similar situation with Berber population and their high proportion of E-M81. Showing us the effect of genetic drift. Thus meaning that the modern representative of the Berber and Tuareg don't have the same genetic population structure, the same haplogroup proportion than in the past. Some haplogroups have drifted away while other haplogroups are now over-represented.
High level of genetic drift shows us that the ancient Tuareg and Berber population didn't have the same genetic structure and haplogroup distribution that the modern population. There was a drift.
It's also interesting to note that almost none of the non-African Tuareg and Berber specific hg like H in Tuareg or M81 show up in Beyoku's study preview (beside one M1 in OK and MK). The closer a Tuareg or Berber is to African populations and haplogroups, the closer he is to the Ancient Egyptian population.
Which is true of course for any populations since Ancient Egyptians are closely related to African people genetically. The closer a population is to Africans, the closer you are to Ancient Egyptians:
Nor did DNA tribes study which included Berber and North African populations find any close matches with the North African region. A region which faced many foreign invasions since ancient times: Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, French, etc. Which changed its genetic structure (the haplogroup proportion) along the years.
Tuareg and Berber, from an African point of view, are a population which started in East Africa, like most modern Africans, and migrated eventually to Northwest Africa to finally interbred with people from the Iberian peninsula and back migration from the Middle East in Ancient and more modern times. Eventually came about the effect of genetic drift (which can be seen by the high proportion of M81 or HUV hg). Moors means black even if now many Berbers have white skin, showing us that in ancient times almost all the original Berbers were black.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Moors
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Moors
.
??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
African Archaeological Review
John E. Yellen National Science Foundation, 4201 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, Virginia 22230
Abstract Examination of African barbed bone points recovered from Holocene sites provides a context to interpret three Late Pleistocene occurrences from Katanda and Ishango, Zaire, and White Paintings Shelter, Botswana. In sites dated to ca. 10,000 BP and younger, such artifacts are found widely distributed across the Sahara Desert, the Sahel, the Nile, and the East African Lakes. They are present in both ceramic and aceramic contexts, sometimes associated with domesticates. The almost-universal presence of fish remains indicates a subsistence adaptation which incorporates a riverine/lacustrine component. Typologically these points exhibit sufficient similarity in form and method of manufacture to be subsumed within a single African “tradition.”They are absent at Fayum, where a distinct Natufian form occurs. Specimens dating to ca. 20,000 BP at Ishango, possibly a similar age at White Paintings Shelter, and up to 90,000 BP at Katanda clearly fall within this same African tradition and thus indicate a very long-term continuity which crosses traditionally conceived sub-Saharan cultural boundaries.
And more recent sources:
Volume 300, 25 June 2013, Pages 153–170
The Middle Palaeolithic in the Desert
The Middle Stone Age of the Central Sahara: Biogeographical opportunities and technological strategies in later human evolution
Although the attempt of Zobel de Zangroniz to disprove the African origin of the regal coins of Numidia has failed (see Babelon, loc. cit.), much uncertainty still attaches to their distribution among the various kings :—Masinissa (B.C. 202-148); his sons Micipsa (148-118), Gulussa (148-140?), and Mastanabal (148-140?); his grandsons Adherbal (118-112). Hiempsal I (118-116), and Jugurtha (118-106); and his great-grandson Hiempsal II (106-60).
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The suggestion that people in the Sahel are environmentally suited for such a "terrain" would have to be based on something other than the eyeballing of people who have been mixing for thousand of years in those regions, like the Sudanese, Fulani, Tibbu, Beja and other peoples of the Sahel They all have individuals with hair indexes of highly diverse and different indexes and apearance due to that historically documented admixture. That IS ALL that can be scientifically deduced.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
The above is obviously baseless babble by someone who has never been the location to experience what actually can cause these traits such as thin hair texture etc...nor does the map subscribe to anything of main importance. Consequence of interpretation.
It's funny because the explanation to why Eurasians whites etc... are the way they are is left without bother. As if their traits appeared from thin air. Poof. LOL
What I like to see, lioness is the transgression faces from stereotype African to stereotype European / Eurasian. LOL
Show the intermediate faces. You dullard.
Repost,
African Archaeological Review
John E. Yellen National Science Foundation, 4201 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, Virginia 22230
Abstract Examination of African barbed bone points recovered from Holocene sites provides a context to interpret three Late Pleistocene occurrences from Katanda and Ishango, Zaire, and White Paintings Shelter, Botswana. In sites dated to ca. 10,000 BP and younger, such artifacts are found widely distributed across the Sahara Desert, the Sahel, the Nile, and the East African Lakes. They are present in both ceramic and aceramic contexts, sometimes associated with domesticates. The almost-universal presence of fish remains indicates a subsistence adaptation which incorporates a riverine/lacustrine component. Typologically these points exhibit sufficient similarity in form and method of manufacture to be subsumed within a single African “tradition.”They are absent at Fayum, where a distinct Natufian form occurs. Specimens dating to ca. 20,000 BP at Ishango, possibly a similar age at White Paintings Shelter, and up to 90,000 BP at Katanda clearly fall within this same African tradition and thus indicate a very long-term continuity which crosses traditionally conceived sub-Saharan cultural boundaries.
And more recent sources:
Volume 300, 25 June 2013, Pages 153–170
The Middle Palaeolithic in the Desert
The Middle Stone Age of the Central Sahara: Biogeographical opportunities and technological strategies in later human evolution
According to lioness this is due to recent slaves / slavery from the "sub-Sahara"
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Her Neanderdumbness. lol
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
The hair texture of the average Moroccan.
According to lioness this is due to recent slaves / slavery from the "sub-Sahara"
I forgot to respond to this. Thats more of loose type hair right? Also in my opinion, out of all the Northwest African countries it seems Morocco has the most African component.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^ I can not confirm this, nor rule out.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
That's highly likely.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
In the 1580s, the rulers of Fezzan gave their allegiance to the sultan, and although Ottoman authority was absent in Cyrenaica, a bey was stationed in Benghazi late in the next century to act as agent of the government in Tripoli. European slaves and large numbers of enslaved blacks transported from Sudan were also a feature of everyday life in Tripoli. In 1551, Turgut Reis enslaved almost the entire population of the Maltese island of Gozo, some 6,300 people, sending them to Libya. Under Gaddafi, foreign workers accounted for about one quarter of Libya's six million population. Most came from Africa, poor immigrants seeking jobs in Libya's oil, agriculture or other sectors.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
In the 1580s, the rulers of Fezzan gave their allegiance to the sultan, and although Ottoman authority was absent in Cyrenaica, a bey was stationed in Benghazi late in the next century to act as agent of the government in Tripoli. European slaves and large numbers of enslaved blacks transported from Sudan were also a feature of everyday life in Tripoli. In 1551, Turgut Reis enslaved almost the entire population of the Maltese island of Gozo, some 6,300 people, sending them to Libya. Under Gaddafi, foreign workers accounted for about one quarter of Libya's six million population. Most came from Africa, poor immigrants seeking jobs in Libya's oil, agriculture or other sectors.
Activity patterns in the Sahara Desert: an interpretation based on cross-sectional geometric properties.
Nikita E, Siew YY, Stock J, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
University of Cambridge, Leverhulme Center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, CB2 1QH,
Abstract
quote:
The Garamantian civilization flourished in modern Fezzan, Libya, between 900 BC and 500 AD, during which the aridification of the Sahara was well established. Study of the archaeological remains suggests a population successful at coping with a harsh environment of high and fluctuating temperatures and reduced water and food resources. This study explores the activity patterns of the Garamantes by means of cross-sectional geometric properties. Long bone diaphyseal shape and rigidity are compared between the Garamantes and populations from Egypt and Sudan, namely from the sites of Kerma, el-Badari, and Jebel Moya, to determine whether the Garamantian daily activities were more strenuous than those of other North African populations. Moreover, sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry are assessed at an intra- and inter-population level. The inter-population comparisons showed the Garamantes not to be more robust than the comparative populations, suggesting that the daily Garamantian activities necessary for survival in the Sahara Desert did not generally impose greater loads than those of other North African populations. Sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry in almost all geometric properties of the long limbs were comparatively low among the Garamantes. Only the lower limbs were significantly stronger among males than females, possibly due to higher levels of mobility associated with herding. The lack of systematic bilateral asymmetry in cross-sectional geometric properties may relate to the involvement of the population in bilaterally intensive activities or the lack of regular repetition of unilateral activities.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
quote:
The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
Again with the same tactic of posting photos of coins showing men with high-bridged pointy noses as if this is proof that they were not black.
These lyinass tactics are just too pathetic. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lyinass,: [qb]
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Don't get mad cuz I busted your lyinass as usual. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally edited by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
Again with the same tactic of posting photos of coins showing men with high-bridged pointy noses as if this is proof that they were not black.
These lyinass tactics are just too easy to refute.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Found a very interesting source...Could explain the origin of modern day North Africans in more detail: Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Don't get mad cuz I busted your lyinass as usual.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
These lyinass tactics are just too easy to refute. [/qb]
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
In the 1580s, the rulers of Fezzan gave their allegiance to the sultan, and although Ottoman authority was absent in Cyrenaica, a bey was stationed in Benghazi late in the next century to act as agent of the government in Tripoli. European slaves and large numbers of enslaved blacks transported from Sudan were also a feature of everyday life in Tripoli. In 1551, Turgut Reis enslaved almost the entire population of the Maltese island of Gozo, some 6,300 people, sending them to Libya. Under Gaddafi, foreign workers accounted for about one quarter of Libya's six million population. Most came from Africa, poor immigrants seeking jobs in Libya's oil, agriculture or other sectors.
more rubbish
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
This is interesting. Do you have a link? Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
This is interesting. Do you have a link?
search youtube, its on there. Just look up "interview with saif gaddafi". I had a old link, but it doesn't work anymore.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Islam's Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora By Ronald Segal
lol i suggest you read that thing you posted. I know english isn't your first language, so maybe get someone to explain it to you. It doesn't prove your point.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What does Islamic slavery have anything to do with the fact that blacks are indigenous to Libya as they are to all of North Africa or Africa in general??
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
So I'm the a-hole for refuting your b.s. picture spam? LOL Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So I'm the a-hole for refuting your b.s. picture spam? LOL Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. [/QB]
If my user name isn't correct I don't read the post
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Islam's Black Slaves: The Other Black Diaspora By Ronald Segal
lol i suggest you read that thing you posted. I know english isn't your first language, so maybe get someone to explain it to you. It doesn't prove your point.
quote me, what in particular my point was
And if you have something to say and there is no source link to back it up forget it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:2011 libya is 50% black. The blacks are NATIVE. Do we forget blacks are the indigenous and the arabs/white berbers are the new comers so to speak. What is to say outside of the propaganda piece in the OP that those black people in that picture are not natives?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: 2011
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:2011 libya is 50% black.
what is your source? (2011)
unanswered since 2011
also name the largest indigenous black ethnic group in Libya that is not berber
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
2003 Middle East Contemporary Survey, Volume 24 edited by Bruce Maddy-Weitzman
^^^ "ONE MILLION INDIGENOUS BLACKS"
population 2000 5.31
at 6 million, 1 million = about 17%
(note the usage of the term 'indigenous blacks" is not clear as to if this 1 million figure means deep rooted indigenous people or simply long term residents, who in the above context are not the African migrant workers (another population) but are not pre historic either So without inidcating the ethnic group one cannot tell if the reference applies to a deep rooted Libyan tribe or some aspect of the claimed 1 million might include blacks who entered the region anytime post Islamic expansion into the Maghreb. Further documenation is necessary that would include tribal names. The above is about modern politics, neverthless in whatever sense 'indigenous blacks' is used here the claim is 1 million in 2003 which is far short of 50%
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ He was quoting Saif Gaddafi. In the end, does it matter what the percentage is?? The point is blacks are indigenous to Libya and were there long before the whites or lighter-skinned people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So I'm the a-hole for refuting your b.s. picture spam? LOL Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
If my user name isn't correct I don't read the post [/QB]
Who gives a sh*t. The posts are for everyone with sense! And they all see what a lying Euronut in black face you are!! Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ He was quoting Saif Gaddafi.
read the posts, you are not following he said Libya was 50% black on 2011 Now in 2014 he claims Saif Gaddafi said it last year but has no source link
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
In the end, does it matter what the percentage is??
ask typezeiss why 50% is emotionally important to him
Read the thread Firewall said 30-40% and typezeiss then made a post trying to correct him that it was 50%
Firewall, typezeiss and Son of Ra are interested in the topic: what percent of Libya is black
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
The point is blacks are indigenous to Libya and were there long before the whites or lighter-skinned people.
quote:Originally posted by typezeiss
The blacks are NATIVE. Do we forget blacks are the indigenous and the arabs/white berbers are the new comers so to speak.
name the largest ethnic group of indigenous blacks in Libya
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Nice coins of classical North African leaders despite the fact some are very white Europeanize. Juba I doesn't look like his dreadlock black father Juba II. Masinissa, Syphax and Hiaras looks like black East Africans.
Coin of Juba I
Head of Juba II
Hannibal coin
Hannibal coin
Hannibal coin
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Found a very interesting source...Could explain the origin of modern day North Africans in more detail:
I notice here it is Son of Ra who revived this topic
The Moors: The Islamic West 7th-15th Centuries AD By David Nicolle
quote:Originally posted by mena7: [QB] Nice coins of classical North African leaders despite the fact some are very white Europeanize. Juba I doesn't look like his dreadlock black father Juba II. Masinissa, Syphax and Hiaras looks like black East Africans.
Juba I coins
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Lioness I think this is King Juba I real coin.
This thousand year old coin is in a to good condition and it look like a modern white European, it is a fake.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by mena7: Lioness I think this is King Juba I real coin.
This thousand year old coin is in a to good condition and it look like a modern white European, it is a fake.
There are old coins in good condition. This is a fact
The coin you are showing is very worn down and you can't tell how the features an detail really are
So because the features may be flattened out by the wear and might be making them look more like a West African you can't just say this one is real and the others are fake because you want Juba to look more West African
Juba I was born in 85 BC
This coin is from around 120 BC of Antiochos VIII Epiphanes SELEUKID KINGS of SYRIA. Antiochos VIII Epiphanes (Grypos). 121/0-97/6 BC. AR Tetradrachm (30mm, 16.09 g, 12h). Sidon mint. Dated SE 197 (116/5 BC). Diademed head right / Zeus Ouranios standing left; ΣIΔΩ/IEP/A and two monograms; I(retrograde P)P (date) in exergue; all within wreath. SC 2330.2; HGC 9, 1197g. VF, toned, minor roughness
mena some people have always saved and collected coins and there are many old coins in pretty good condition
^^^^ If something is worn down like this that wear can be faked also on a modern coin
Onlly a coin expert who is looking at these coins in person can make a good guess if it might be fake or not
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What does Islamic slavery have anything to do with the fact that blacks are indigenous to Libya as they are to all of North Africa or Africa in general??
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
So I'm the a-hole for refuting your b.s. picture spam? LOL Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
I don't know, you have to ask the silly one Lionness about that question. What I know for sure is, North Africa was considered Ethiop in demographic by all Europeans that wrote about it, from Herodotus to Pliny the Elder, and it isn't until 1100 CE that we hear Ibn Hawqal chime in and say there are two racial groups, the Sudani (black) Sinhaja and the white Sinhaja along the coast. He says the blacks are the original ones and the white ones turn that way because of geographic location. it is far more likely that by 1100 CE these whites were the product of slavery and intermarriage. But it is interesting that we do not hear about sizable white groups until 1100 and it is interesting that when they do appear in large numbers they are considered to be originally black, but turned white due to climate.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
This is interesting. Do you have a link?
search youtube, its on there. Just look up "interview with saif gaddafi". I had a old link, but it doesn't work anymore.
2003 Middle East Contemporary Survey, Volume 24 edited by Bruce Maddy-Weitzman
^^^ "ONE MILLION INDIGENOUS BLACKS"
population 2000 5.31
at 6 million, 1 million = about 17%
(note the usage of the term 'indigenous blacks" is not clear as to if this 1 million figure means deep rooted indigenous people or simply long term residents, who in the above context are not the African migrant workers (another population) but are not pre historic either So without inidcating the ethnic group one cannot tell if the reference applies to a deep rooted Libyan tribe or some aspect of the claimed 1 million might include blacks who entered the region anytime post Islamic expansion into the Maghreb. Further documenation is necessary that would include tribal names. The above is about modern politics, neverthless in whatever sense 'indigenous blacks' is used here the claim is 1 million in 2003 which is far short of 50%
This is stupid for a number of reasons. The most important reason being, I can say Denmark has 100,000 black people who have been there since 500BCE, doesn't make it credible. I would believe a government official of Libya over some non government official any day. How did this source you gave come up with their number? We know the Libyan government has a census, and they have no reason to lie about the number of blacks they have in that country. Your source and reasoning, as usual is deficient.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ He was quoting Saif Gaddafi.
read the posts, you are not following he said Libya was 50% black on 2011 Now in 2014 he claims Saif Gaddafi said it last year but has no source link
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
In the end, does it matter what the percentage is??
ask typezeiss why 50% is emotionally important to him
Read the thread Firewall said 30-40% and typezeiss then made a post trying to correct him that it was 50%
Firewall, typezeiss and Son of Ra are interested in the topic: what percent of Libya is black
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
The point is blacks are indigenous to Libya and were there long before the whites or lighter-skinned people.
quote:Originally posted by typezeiss
The blacks are NATIVE. Do we forget blacks are the indigenous and the arabs/white berbers are the new comers so to speak.
name the largest ethnic group of indigenous blacks in Libya
I dont need to name them, it is relevant. The fact of the matter is, Saif Gaddafi said its 50% black, why would he lie? You on the other hand, who has never been to Africa, barely reads English properly, without the use of Google translate, I would assume, know nothing concerning this fact, its amusing, but a silly argument. Whites are not indigenous to North Africa, that's a fact, sorry to break that to you.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: We know the Libyan government has a census, and they have no reason to lie about the number of blacks they have in that country. Your source and reasoning, as usual is deficient.
stop bullshitting
either you have a source link for a Libyan census and that census includes blacks
or you dont have a source link for a Libyan census and that census includes blacks
obviously you dont so stop blowing hot air and making up percentages out of your head
Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ He was quoting Saif Gaddafi.
read the posts, you are not following he said Libya was 50% black on 2011 Now in 2014 he claims Saif Gaddafi said it last year but has no source link
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
In the end, does it matter what the percentage is??
ask typezeiss why 50% is emotionally important to him
Read the thread Firewall said 30-40% and typezeiss then made a post trying to correct him that it was 50%
Firewall, typezeiss and Son of Ra are interested in the topic: what percent of Libya is black
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
The point is blacks are indigenous to Libya and were there long before the whites or lighter-skinned people.
quote:Originally posted by typezeiss
The blacks are NATIVE. Do we forget blacks are the indigenous and the arabs/white berbers are the new comers so to speak.
name the largest ethnic group of indigenous blacks in Libya
I dont need to name them, it is relevant. The fact of the matter is, Saif Gaddafi said its 50% black, why would he lie? You on the other hand, who has never been to Africa, barely reads English properly, without the use of Google translate, I would assume, know nothing concerning this fact, its amusing, but a silly argument. Whites are not indigenous to North Africa, that's a fact, sorry to break that to you.
Man Type, You should know lioness MO..She thinks she knows more about Africans, THEN AFRICANS THEMSELVES. She posts what white "scholars" state and claims it as facts because it jives with what people from the Homeland state.
For her to even question what a LEADER OF THE COUNTRY says simply because she is pro white and wants to write whites in Africa as indeginous people even though everyone knows that Cancer among pale skinned people in Africa is 2nd only to Australia(?) so how can they be normal to Africa is beyond me but she will go broke back with her ideology and obsession even state things like Hair defines ethnicties and claim "Africans can't have straight hair without admixture" She will slink away, only to return later with the same nonsense.
A North African country comes out and says so and so...BUT a Euro established article states otherwise so why should the person who LIVES in the country no what they talking about, when a euro says otherwise. In her mind, accept the euro reject the people who LIVE THERE.
Sad really Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
This is interesting. Do you have a link?
search youtube, its on there. Just look up "interview with saif gaddafi". I had a old link, but it doesn't work anymore.
It starts around 9:30 or so. He doesn't say 50% he says "Half" but it doesn't take anyone with a strong understanding of English to know half = 50%
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
This is interesting. Do you have a link?
search youtube, its on there. Just look up "interview with saif gaddafi". I had a old link, but it doesn't work anymore.
typezeiss said Libya was 50% black in a 2011 thread
Now in 2014 he says Saif Gaddafi said this in 2013
is this guy black ? If he is, then I take it back, Libya is 50% black
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: We know the Libyan government has a census, and they have no reason to lie about the number of blacks they have in that country. Your source and reasoning, as usual is deficient.
stop bullshitting
either you have a source link for a Libyan census and that census includes blacks
or you dont have a source link for a Libyan census and that census includes blacks
obviously you dont so stop blowing hot air and making up percentages out of your head
lol, you want me to provide something you can't even provide? Do you know Arabic? NO! Me providing you something from their would be useless, as you don't know or speak Arabic. Next, I have provide a QUOTE from a former Libyan government official. There is nothing more for us to discuss. I don't care how many half witted quotes from Whites, who don't live in Libya, you provide. Libyans know who live in their country, especially a government official, be serious, you sound stupid.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Interesting. ^
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I read awhile go that libya is about 30% to 50% black today.
50% black
There was a interview with Saif Gaddafi last year when he gave the demographics of Libya. I think if you check YouTube you should be able to find it.
This is interesting. Do you have a link?
search youtube, its on there. Just look up "interview with saif gaddafi". I had a old link, but it doesn't work anymore.
typezeiss said Libya was 50% black in a 2011 thread
Now in 2014 he says Saif Gaddafi said this in 2013
is this guy black ? If he is, then I take it back, Libya is 50% black
the interview is right above your post you dim wit LOL, this is getting soooo comical. You are rather foolish, and the thing that impresses me with you is, you don't mind letting the world know how foolish you are, its like you take pride in it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
thank you now you have done a proper source
now Son of Ra I dont have time now but he said or defence minister is black and somebody else, check the photos
I still dont think Libya is half black just because he said it is They had no census indicating this
The interview is 2011 not 2013 as he claimed
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Interesting. ^
its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways ie dark black or light skinned black. Many of the light skinned blacks have hair that looks like Brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those Khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See, whites want to discard the ones who are light skinned. Which is interesting because if you saw these same people in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks. It is only in North Africa that these whites start getting these funny definitions.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: thank you now you have done a proper source
now Son of Ra I dont have time now but he said or defence minister is black and somebody else, check the photos
I still dont think Libya is half black just because he said it is They had no census indicating this
The interview is 2011 not 2013 as he claimed
lol it doesn't matter what you "think" if you can call what you are doing "thinking". Nor do you know if they have a census or not as you do not speak Arabic, so how the hell would you know? LOL funny and foolish all at once.
Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Interesting. ^
its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways. Either like light skinned blacks with hair that look like brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See whites want to discard the ones who, if they were in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks.
To question Blacks and or Africans is the MO of the euro established world. Why go with African truth, when the whites can instead make up whatever they want and the villiage tom will believe it.
Look at Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda) but euros are taking DNA etc to confirm what was confirmed by these Blacks AND Greeks like Herodutus etc. They will fight their own people when they are African supporters because in lioness er um I mean the euros eyes there word trumps anyone elses even if they have to make up there own fantasy of Africans like "Aliens built Egypt" "Lost white tribe" blah blah blah. They are desperate to write themselves in the motherland because deep down they are empty and desperate to think they come from greatness, instead of just being happy to be human with a chance at eternal life.
Just gotta get more Africans like Dr. Winters to keep speaking not caring if euros agree or not. Why should they always have the last word?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: thank you now you have done a proper source
now Son of Ra I dont have time now but he said or defence minister is black and somebody else, check the photos
I still dont think Libya is half black just because he said it is They had no census indicating this
The interview is 2011 not 2013 as he claimed
I'm checking right now. Though the Libyan "blacks" could be "Arabized" like those Sudanese people who claim Arab yet look like this.
On the census they could just choose "Arab" instead "black".
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Interesting. ^
its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways ie dark black or light skinned black. Many of the light skinned blacks have hair that looks like Brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those Khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See, whites want to discard the ones who are light skinned. Which is interesting because if you saw these same people in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks. It is only in North Africa that these whites start getting these funny definitions.
To be honest I don't know that much about Libyans. I'm more informed on Egyptians and to some extent Moroccans.
Do you feel like posting pics of these Libyans that fit your description? Just asking.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Interesting. ^
its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways ie dark black or light skinned black. Many of the light skinned blacks have hair that looks like Brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those Khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See, whites want to discard the ones who are light skinned. Which is interesting because if you saw these same people in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks. It is only in North Africa that these whites start getting these funny definitions.
To be honest I don't know that much about Libyans. I'm more informed on Egyptians and to some extent Moroccans.
Do you feel like posting pics of these Libyans that fit your description? Just asking.
I am not into the picture spam game, that to me is useless. Just go there and see. A few pictures from the internet are absolutely useless in proving anything. I am also confused as to how black Africans being arabized means much of anything? Blacks in the west have been anglicized and europeanized, does it make them any less African in terms of their origin? No, not at all.
*edit*
I saw your comment about people choosing "Arab" on census even though they have black skin. I see your point. But again, it strengthens my point, you really need to go and see for yourself.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
You saying blacks in the west being anglicized, while blacks in Sudan being Arabized are two different things. Blacks in the west still claim black and check black on the census.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Interesting. ^
its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways. Either like light skinned blacks with hair that look like brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See whites want to discard the ones who, if they were in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks.
To question Blacks and or Africans is the MO of the euro established world. Why go with African truth, when the whites can instead make up whatever they want and the villiage tom will believe it.
Look at Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda) but euros are taking DNA etc to confirm what was confirmed by these Blacks AND Greeks like Herodutus etc. They will fight their own people when they are African supporters because in lioness er um I mean the euros eyes there word trumps anyone elses even if they have to make up there own fantasy of Africans like "Aliens built Egypt" "Lost white tribe" blah blah blah. They are desperate to write themselves in the motherland because deep down they are empty and desperate to think they come from greatness, instead of just being happy to be human with a chance at eternal life.
Just gotta get more Africans like Dr. Winters to keep speaking not caring if euros agree or not. Why should they always have the last word?
I think the problem is white guilt. They are the last ones in recent history to really cause all sorts of havoc and destruction to many groups of people across the world, but most especially Africans. To make it ok psychologically, they have to dehumanize those they have, and continue to criminalize. Think about a serial killer, in order for him to make it ok in his mind to go out and kill and eat women, he has to make women into objects, a thing or animal. He can't look at that person as a fellow human. That would be very difficult to reconcile within themselves psychologically. Same thing with eurocentrics. They have to come to terms with the facts that they have and continue to do very heinous things in Africa. They can only do that by either dehumanizing Africans, or making them seem "less than" and as such, now they are tasked with "saving the baby minded African". Never mind we had civilization while they were painting themselves blue in caves and running around eating each other. This is a very complex issue to be honest.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: You saying blacks in the west being anglicized, while blacks in Sudan being Arabized are two different things. Blacks in the west still claim black and check black on the census.
Sudani people most definitely consider themselves black, the word Sudan means (blacks) literally, in Arabic. What they do not do is equate themselves as the same as SOME other black groups. You are taking western minded black mentalities and applying it to non western blacks. That doesn't work. Remember, Arab is not a race, it is a ethnicity. There are jet black people all over the middle east. Who are considered to be indigenous black to the area. Like the hadrami people in Yemen, tahama or those indigenous blacks in the khaleej and the islands off the cost like Bahrain etc etc etc
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: thank you now you have done a proper source
Unlike YOU! LOL
quote:now Son of Ra I don't have time now but he said or defense minister is black and somebody else, check the photos.
So what?
quote:I still don't think Libya is half black just because he said it is They had no census indicating this
LOL As Typezeis, you have a problem taking his word for it even though not only is he a citizen of that country by an actual government official. It makes me wonder how you would react if say a census was produced confirming what he says. What then? You will just say it is inaccurate.
quote:The interview is 2011 not 2013 as he claimed
So, it is even older than he thought. What then? Are you saying the demographics have changed since then? LOL
This lyinass twit is pathetic!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I'm checking right now. Though the Libyan "blacks" could be "Arabized" like those Sudanese people who claim Arab yet look like this.
On the census they could just choose "Arab" instead "black".
Interesting point. It must be remembered that notions of "black" are different in North Africa. Where many who would be called 'black' in America would NOT in North Africa but be called 'Arab' or 'Berber' instead. We have cited studies before showing that Libya overall has demographics more in common with Egypt than the rest of the Maghreb. Recently I've seen videos of Libya during and after the revolution against Qaddafi and the people look just like Egyptians i.e. lighter-skinned mixed to even off-white people along the northern coasts with blacks being more common in the south around the Fezzan area though not exclusive to that area since 'blacks' are still not uncommon around northern cities like Tripoli and Benghazi. That said, at least from all the videos I've seen, Saif would indeed be correct that about half the population is or rather would be considered 'black' by Western standards. This is no secret. Even Euros on the other side of the Mediterranean in Greece, Albania, and Italy still call Libyans names like 'moros' or 'negras'.
But of course, reality is something that is not taken into account by Euronut lyinasses.
^ The map above gives a rough ethnic demographic layout of Libya. Of course the Tuareg are a Berber ethnic group as well so 'Berber' in the map really means other Berber groups. Considering the FACT that both Tuareg and Toubou groups are indeed 'black' and the majority of the populace classified as 'Arab' also includes 'black' types or mixed black types then there would be little doubt as to Saif Qaddafi's claims.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
... Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda)
.
Really?
And just where can I go and read Egyptians saying that?
Precise Egyptian document(s) -- no Greek geographers like Strabo or Ptolemy -- please, text and line if you don't mind.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Djehuti
Good post. Yeah Western idea of "black" and North Africa's idea of "black" are different.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Well I know in the case of Morocco, the Maurabitoun architecture was destroyed once they fell. I believe there is only a hand full of buildings still left from that period. North Africa, like there West African brothers built with adobe, so a lot of things have not stood the test of time do to successive take overs. When I get a chance I can provide some evidence on that one.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
It's the same with Egypt! The vast majority of Egyptians today since Islamic times live in the Delta in contrast to pharaonic times when the majority lived in the valley. I don't disagree with you that stereotypical "Mediterraneans" might indeed outnumber the black ones, but at the same time just like Egypt, the number of blacks could also be underestimated.
quote:While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
You may be right about that. Remember that the great urban civilization of Libya that truly was indigenous was the Gramantes who lived to the south in the Fezzan region. Mind you that although the coastal areas were colonized by Phoenicians, there were indeed indigenes who lived along the coasts as well and that it is historical fact that Carthage though a Phoenician colony its civilization largely became the result of fusion with indigenous Africans.
quote:It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
True. Note also the influences in clothing and hairstyle. Which was why many Carthagean and other Maghrebi rulers despite their ancestry adopted Greco-Roman style dress and hairstyles. This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Truthcentric
The thing is most those "Mediterranean" looking North Africans of the coastal part mostly came recently after the 14/15th century from Europe after the Moorish period. The important thing is that during the Moorish period most of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. So it would be easy for those newcomers to "outnumber" the indigenous people.
The Moors are differently a part of African heritage, because the Berbers as a whole are African and most Berber groups have a native Berber culture. I don't know why you brought up Hannibal since he is most likely of Phoenician descent like you hinted. And also Carthage was really the only major urban setting in NW.
But this threads not about the Moors, Carthage or wanting them as a collective heritage, but what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans today.
IMO most modern day Northwest Africans descend from expelled Muslims(European/African/Middle Eastern) from Southern Europe and enslaved Europeans.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Truthcentric
The thing is most those "Mediterranean" looking North Africans of the coastal part mostly came recently after the 14/15th century from Europe after the Moorish period. The important thing is that during the Moorish period most of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. So it would be easy for those newcomers to "outnumber" the indigenous people.
The Moors are differently a part of African heritage, because the Berbers as a whole are African and most Berber groups have a native Berber culture. I don't know why you brought up Hannibal since he is most likely of Phoenician descent like you hinted. And also Carthage was really the only major urban setting in NW.
But this threads not about the Moors, Carthage or wanting them as a collective heritage, but what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans today.
IMO most modern day Northwest Africans descend from expelled Muslims(European/African/Middle Eastern) from Southern Europe and enslaved Europeans.
But what about the predominance of Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in the remains of pre-Neolithic North Africans that Swenet shared with us in one of his threads? What about those ancient Egyptian images of olive-skinned people among the Libyans? (Libyan is the furthest left)
Mind you, I don't have a problem accepting that Northwest Africa could have undergone some radical demographic changes in the last few millennia the way Egypt did. What I am skeptical about is the claim that the whole Eurasian presence in the region can be attributed to demographic movements that recent.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ By pre-Neolithic Eurasian mtDNA I take it you mean this study:
I am somewhat skeptical that the entry of this hg goes back to Holocene times, namely because there are no downstream markers specific to Africa that are found among the populations who carry it today i.e. Libyan Tuareg who carry it at about 61%.
That said, I do think this hg entered North Africa in ancient times and as Ausar and Tukuler have stated no earlier than the late Middle Kingdom as can be seen in Egyptian texts and descriptions of Libyans.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Truthcentric
I never heard of a predominance of Eurasian mtDNA before the neolithic, unless you're talking about U6.
Also how far before the neolithic? Because by the time of the Moorish period, heck by the time of the Ancient Libyans. Those "Eurasian" Africans would have been African by now, especially U6.
"No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic." http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-12-234.pdf
Also IMO mtDNA tells us little and only gives us ancestry. Those Eurasians mtDNA could have been increased in frequencies by Africans themselves.
Also most Ancient Libyans I seen depicted by the Egyptians looked like this:
Not saying you're wrong but like I said many times I believe the BULK of Eurasian admixture came during the Moorish period. Again during that period NW Africa was sparsely populated and those people could have easily displaced the indigenous people. Especially considering Berber groups during that time were spread out.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ By pre-Neolithic Eurasian mtDNA I take it you mean this study:
I am somewhat skeptical that the entry of this hg goes back to Holocene times, namely because there are no downstream markers specific to Africa that are found among the populations who carry it today i.e. Libyan Tuareg who carry it at about 61%.
That said, I do think this hg entered North Africa in ancient times and as Ausar and Tukuler have stated no earlier than the late Middle Kingdom as can be seen in Egyptian texts and descriptions of Libyans.
I was referring more to this: Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
... Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda)
.
Really?
And just where can I go and read Egyptians saying that?
Precise Egyptian document(s) -- no Greek geographers like Strabo or Ptolemy -- please, text and line if you don't mind.
My Bad Tukuler I couldn't find anything that stated this except for some puzzling things about the papyrus Hunefer. Dr Ben says he read it in Syracuse, but it could just be a mistranslated line.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@ TC - just a reminder of possible Hgs Kefi overlooked.
<== suppressed dissension
EDIT: wow I ran into Kefi on the street not long after reposting my additions and now Imageshack took it down! Never fear, there's more where that came from.
@ CO/T King - so I no further detract this thread, check
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @ TC - just a reminder of possible Hgs Kefi overlooked.
EDIT: wow I ran into Kefi on the street not long after reposting my additions and now Imageshack took it down! Never fear, there's more where that came from.
@ CO/T King - so I no further detract this thread, check
So from reading the text from those threads 1 can say that:
1)inner Africa is Amami in the eyes of the AE "land of the ancestors". also Ta Ntr 2)the Mountains of the Moon is not the Great Lakes. That Ruwenzori mountain range is precisely the Mountains of the Moon located in Uganda and Congos
So from those 2 points it makes sense that people should critique, all sources and opinions because to ignore debating these truths, means the euros have legs to stand on, on there attack on African scholarship. Credit Tukuler for posting these informative threads and I urge all people to read and learn from them, the difference between good scholarship, and euro scholarship where people blindly follow everything that white people say is that Africans are not afraid to criticize there own...and then learning expands.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't know why this focus one of the Egyptians' origin legends to know they are indigenous to Africa. Yes the south was one of the areas they say their ancestors originated. Other legends hold their ancestors came from the West as well which is why the West is considered the 'Land of the Dead' i.e. an ancestral area also. The point is whether west in the Sahara or south towards the source of the Nile or right where they are in Egypt, it is ALL in Africa!
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I was referring more to this:
Oh that.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @ TC - just a reminder of possible Hgs Kefi overlooked.
<== suppressed dissension
EDIT: wow I ran into Kefi on the street not long after reposting my additions and now Imageshack took it down! Never fear, there's more where that came from.
Indeed. One problem is that East Africa as the site of OOA hosts many mt hgs that date back to around the time of OOA or a little after that time so there are going to be shared SNP motifs with Eurasian clades and therefore some confusion. Northeast Africa in particular i.e. Libya to Egypt and Sudan show a high frequency of R, particularly upstream R0 (pre-HV) and pre-JT markers as well as U markers.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Like I said most of these "Eurasians" mtDNA prior to the neolithic are no longer Eurasian and by the time of the Moors/Berbers they would have already mutated into African. Specifically U6.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
With Son of Ra's permission to carry on with this off topic:
DJ - what AE legends claim a west origin? I only know of the Shemsu Hor legend/myth which posits a south origin.
Mind you this has nothing to do with what archaeology and genetics can tell us about "Saharans" "migrating" east to the Nile in Sudan and then moving north into Egypt nor the folk who always resided in the Lower Nile nor the Saharans who moved into delta. Perhaps all these folk except the earliest holocene Egyptians and the Deltas all come out of the Khartoum culture.
So just focus on the mythological and legendary.
Co/t King - Well it seems obvious, at least to me that a mountain range is not a lake. In this case the range is situated within the Great Lakes region.
I trust this map precisely locates the Ruwenzoris, the Mountains of the Moon, for you. It is definitely in Great Lakes territory. What I meant is it's precisely ensconced by colonizer named lakes Edward, George, and Albert while Malawi, TaNzania, Victoria, and Turkana (not to mention other little known lakes) aren't in the immediate vicinity.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
It's the same with Egypt! The vast majority of Egyptians today since Islamic times live in the Delta in contrast to pharaonic times when the majority lived in the valley. I don't disagree with you that stereotypical "Mediterraneans" might indeed outnumber the black ones, but at the same time just like Egypt, the number of blacks could also be underestimated.
quote:While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
You may be right about that. Remember that the great urban civilization of Libya that truly was indigenous was the Gramantes who lived to the south in the Fezzan region. Mind you that although the coastal areas were colonized by Phoenicians, there were indeed indigenes who lived along the coasts as well and that it is historical fact that Carthage though a Phoenician colony its civilization largely became the result of fusion with indigenous Africans.
quote:It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
True. Note also the influences in clothing and hairstyle. Which was why many Carthagean and other Maghrebi rulers despite their ancestry adopted Greco-Roman style dress and hairstyles. This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".
. Just to compound the above (and please don't take this the wrong way)
The spectre of Black Africa and implied black low esteem. The Barca family and the Moors ARE African heritage. Just one of many. Certainly no one is jettisoning all other African regions to grasp that of the northwest as proxy to west, east, central, and southern regions.
Save that paradigm for when cosmopolitan Rome becomes hands-off as regards European heritage. After all Roman citizens included North Africans and Levantines, even Arabs and Indians. Yet supra-Pyreneean Europeans (White Europeans) are just as partial to Rome as Mediterranean coastal Olive Europeans are. "But that's OK for us, the Africans better not try it."
What are these "Black African groups scattered around the Sahara" as if native Saharan peoples means exclusive of the black -- and that the black must be an immigree from the savannah Gnawa lands or further south?
Seems stubborn old school typologies never die.
What's forgotten? As late as the 6th century Olive Europeans of Mediterranean coastal Europe placed far northwest Africans in a schema with Saharans, Egyptians, Sudanis, and Indians. Why? Because their colour was of an entirely different cast than Mediterranean Syrians, Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards. Heaven forfend we go back to Aeschylus, so, time to review Manilius (link).
Just a few centuries later alJahiz reported "they," African blacks in Arabia, say the Berbers count among the blacks. An opinion apparently upheld by the Arabized Greek, ibn Butlan (11th century) who likewise classified northwest Africans as blacks.
But the spectre of Black African conjures disallowal against these native blacks of northwest Africa as African blacks. Why, so that the heavily and recently admixed coastal Maghrebis can claim that which came well before the advent of their present physicality and by proxy therefore a claim by supra Pyrenee White Europe. even though Maure substituted for Aethiop in Latin poetry with no loss of meaning i.e, a black's a black.
Early Holocene deep "Euro" rooted maternal haplogroups have nothing to do with the colour of many many living Maghrebis. Such haplogroups originated from the Middle East. Their bearers were not pink skinned.
Euro mommies with non-Euro religion fleeing southwest Europe due to the reconquest and inquisition appears to be the first major flux of pallour that continues up to tomorrow Euro mommies met in clubs, university, vacation, commerce, or some other relation.
The few whites always noted among North Africans cannot account for the booming white population found in today's North Africa. Records and photos of 19th and early 20th century prove even Kabylie still had the native type of black in common enough though low frequency.
South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab" Saharans white but we totally separate them from a category that includes most Spaniards, Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians. They are "white society's" real white people not including textbook whites (Berbers, Arabs, Indians, etc.) who are not "white society's" white people but buffer caucasoids, acting as proxy whites for White Europeans of low self-esteem writing history books, genetic journals and what have you stealing other people's cultures.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
What's interesting is that the recent discovery of derived SLC24A5 having come from the Middle East during the Neolithic, comes with new conceptual implications regarding what it means to be "black" in prehistory. It would seem that Ibero-Maurusians, even with European mtDNA H1, H3, V and U5 having become a part of their haplogroup composition at a later stage, would have been dark skinned. But this goes both ways and is equally applicable to Middle Easterns and Europeans. Due to their light skin alleles having become (almost) fixed, people for centuries assumed that Europeans, Jews and (light skinned) Middle Easterners don't have much African ancestry. What we're now beginning to see is that the (near) fixation of light skin alleles (which, in Europe's case, seems to have happened during the metal ages), obscures any visual cues of significant African admixture in these populations, in the eye of the public. The popular lay idea that skin colour is necessarily directly proportionate to how much ancestry one has from a light or dark skinned source has been shown to be a fallacy:
quote:The overall contributions from Asia and Africa were estimated to be around two-thirds and one-third, respectively
--Cavalli-Sforza
BTW, I did not introduce that Kefi 2005 image to this forum.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Like I said most of these "Eurasians" mtDNA prior to the neolithic are no longer Eurasian and by the time of the Moors/Berbers they would have already mutated into African. Specifically U6.
You have to understand that "Eurasian" and "African" are purely geographic terms and don't say much about the actual populations themselves let alone their relation to one another.
Keep in mind that many of those clades called "Eurasian" are said to originate in Southwest Asia i.e. Arabia and Levant which are right next door to Africa.
Because the region is in such close proximity to Africa sharing the same geologic features and climate, the OOA populations who dwelt in this region were not much different from their brethren who stayed in Africa next door.
And you yourself have admitted that the region to be an extension of Africa if you recall my thread here
Therefore whatever clades arose in these OOA people as "Eurasian" clades don't make much difference if they were reintroduced back into the continent.
This is why Keita said: The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.
^ The debate about which clades are 'Eurasian' or African is in regards to M and N and some of their subclades. There is evidence to suggest M1 and N1 could have originated in Africa. But in regards to N subclades, and in particular R there seems to evidence of back-and-forth migration between Arabia ('Eurasia') and northeast Africa.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
He is a former US government official who has spent a considerable amount of time in Libya also stating it is 50% black
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Of course you are right.
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Of course you are right.
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.
*chuckle*
I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Of course you are right.
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.
*chuckle*
I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?
Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.
I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Of course you are right.
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.
*chuckle*
I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?
Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.
I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.
Again, so where are you from?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Of course you are right.
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.
*chuckle*
I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?
Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.
I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.
Again, so where are you from?
Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA. That was an easy one.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Of course you are right.
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.
*chuckle*
I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?
Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.
I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.
Again, so where are you from?
Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA. That was an easy one.
Yeah, that's what I thought. See, you run your mouth, but when you are called on your silly statements, and asked to provide evidence, or validation for your comments, you retort with absurdity. So, so far, we have established that comments like "they are not African", and the speaking in generalities about people from the Maghrib, whom you are not familiar with, outside of your little Google searches, is really just rubbish, as you clearly don't know what you are talking about.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^thx for that run of mouth
Read again this more sober analysis of the situation. The thing that really bothers you:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Be yourself typezeiss. You will feel good about it.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^thx for that run of mouth
Read again this more sober analysis of the situation. The thing that really bothers you:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
Be yourself typezeiss. You will feel good about it.
oh Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: With Son of Ra's permission to carry on with this off topic:
DJ - what AE legends claim a west origin? I only know of the Shemsu Hor legend/myth which posits a south origin.
Mind you this has nothing to do with what archaeology and genetics can tell us about "Saharans" "migrating" east to the Nile in Sudan and then moving north into Egypt nor the folk who always resided in the Lower Nile nor the Saharans who moved into delta. Perhaps all these folk except the earliest holocene Egyptians and the Deltas all come out of the Khartoum culture.
So just focus on the mythological and legendary.
Co/t King - Well it seems obvious, at least to me that a mountain range is not a lake. In this case the range is situated within the Great Lakes region.
I trust this map precisely locates the Ruwenzoris, the Mountains of the Moon, for you. It is definitely in Great Lakes territory. What I meant is it's precisely ensconced by colonizer named lakes Edward, George, and Albert while Malawi, TaNzania, Victoria, and Turkana (not to mention other little known lakes) aren't in the immediate vicinity.
It's true that the story of the Shemsu Hur is the most well known ancestry legend of the Egyptians no doubt because the legend was promulgated in the Thebald by the dominant royal cult of Heru (Horus), but I have read of other origin legends specifically the legend of shemsu Ash which interestingly enough was local to Delta Egyptians as well as oasis dwellers, though his cult was said to have reached as far south as Nubt. This plus the fact that the Egyptians built their tombs and shrines to their dead ancestors on the western side of the Nile all indicate western origins for [some] of the Egyptians as well.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what you should have said in 2011 was that Saif Gaddafi said that Libya was half black
But instead you left out his name and said that "Libya is 50% black" making it sound as if that was hard statistical data
Perhaps the largest group of indigenous black African inclusive of parts of Libya are the Tubu ( aka Toubou).They live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan and are roughly estimated to be 350,000 There are also the Toureg estimated to be 10,000 - 17,000 and it is hard to said what portion of them is "black". The idea that Libya is 50% indigenous black is ridiculous. All one needs to do is look at the ethnic groups and they are under half a million in an overall population of 6.5 million
Out of a population of about seven million people in Libya, about one million are believed to be from sub-Saharan African countries. There are no concrete figures. Reports claimed that about three quarters of these Africans are sort of on a waiting list to try by any means to cross to Europe.
^^^ So most blacks in the country are migrant workers. If you add this to the indigenous and the descendants of Ottoman slaves who are earlier Sudanese or other SSA you get a figure well under 50% Must we not question this just because we like the sound of it ?
My guess is that Saif Gaddafi was greatly exaggerating the size of the black population in Libya for politcial reasons in an interview. The Gaddafis are masters of rhetoric and under duress from being overthrown by the rebels/NATO So Libya was 50% black all these deacdes and now only when Gaddafi is overthrown does this "fact" come out ??
Main minority groups: Berber (Amazigh) est. 236,000 to 590,000 (4-10%), Tuareg est. 17,000 (0.3%), foreigners, 600,000 documented (10%) and 1.1-1.2 million undocumented (18-20%)
[Note: Reliable statistics for Libya are unavailable. Estimates for the numbers of Berber speakers vary between four and ten per cent. The number of Tuareg is from the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in 2009. The numbers for foreigners are Libyan government figures cited by Human Rights Watch (HWR) in 2006.]
Demographic data for Libya is scarce, but around 90 per cent of the population belongs to the Arabic-speaking majority of mixed Arab–Berber ancestry. The Sunni branch of Islam is the official and nationally dominant political, cultural and legal force. Berbers, who retain the Berber language and customs, are the largest non-Arab minority. Libyan Berbers call themselves Amazigh (plural: Imazighen) and are one of the indigenous populations of North Africa. They are made of up of different ethnic groups, including nomadic Tuareg. Other minorities include the Arabic-speakers of West African ancestry, who inhabit the southern oases, and the Berber-related Tuareg and Tebu (Toubou), who live in the south of the country.
Summary prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in accordance with paragraph 15 (c) of the annex to Human rights Council resolution 5/1: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
For me the North African people are a fix mulato people. Black Africans and white central Asians met in North Africa during the middle age. during the classical era Black Africans living in North Africa and South Europe met with the white central Asian in North Europe. North Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Morroco are mulato. South Egypt, Libya, Algeria and morocco are mostly black.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC.
Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions.
The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls.
The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men.
Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.
quote: Long Description Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC. Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions. The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls. The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men. Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.
Man TP, this post inspired me to post about what happened in Turkey...To think people can't feel for the next man...Be they musilm or not is sad but Your post made me get that fire I needed to post it. Interesting post.
Peace
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
It's being said that the Sokna people (Berber) are exin
Not a valid archeology or anthropology website. Nevertheless, lets review what they say:
quote: Sokna Castle, surrounded by walls, is made up of two and three-story buildings, each arranged around a well in a wide courtyard: in the past, the courtyard was used as a safe shelter for soldiers and animals. Thanks to its precious reserves of high quality water, Sokna was for a long time the political capital of the area.
The Caimacan, the Ottoman Grand Vizier's Lieutenant, ruled over the entire Al Jufrah region. His capital was in the Sokna fortress throughout the three centuries of Turkish rule: from the early 17th century till 1929, the year when Italy consolidated its occupation. At the foot of the hills on which the castle is built, lies the area where a daily date market is still held today. Sokna, on the route leading to the greater Sahara desert, was visited by many European explorers in the 19th century, as they set off on their journeys into the desert. References to Al Jufrah can be found in many diaries and travel notes by these geographers, although they may not all have been fully aware of how useful their accounts would be for those who planned the political and military colonial adventures that followed.
Antoine-Jean-Etienne Faivre French, 1830-1905 Oil on canvas Gift of Arthur I. Appleton
quote: Faivre was a skilled and highly respected portrait artist and his works were often displayed in Paris and London. This portrait of Nessim-Bey, in its original frame, was exhibited at the Paris Salon in 1855. Nessim-Bey obtained increased ranks (Bimbashi then Caimacan) of the Bashi Bazouks of the Turkish Army. Bashi-bazouks (in Turkish başıbozuk, meaning "one with an unsound mind") were irregular, mounted mercenaries in the Ottoman army during the nineteenth century, infamous for their plundering proclivities.
Charles Carroll Tevis (also known as Washington Carroll Tevis) was a soldier of fortune, fighting for hire in France, Egypt, and Turkey. A graduate of West Point in 1849, he resigned from the U.S. Army in 1850 to join the Turkish army under the name of Nessim-Bey. Following his adventures in Turkey he went to Paris, then returned to the U.S. during the Civil War (July 1863 as Lieutenant-Colonel; Colonel Dec.1863) where he became a Brevet Brigadier General of volunteers for war service (March 1865) for gallant and meritorious services during the war. He was discharged in July of 1864.
Other subgroups Zuwara AMAZIGH and Gharyan AMAZIGH
And ironically the majority of the population is described as Arab-Berber? According to this map.
What could this, or rather, what does this imply?
Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Zuwara Amazigh
Is nessim Bey a Berber?
EDIT: Credit I see now what you are showing brother.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
HISTORY OF THE WADDAN OASIS
quote:
Waddan Castle, surrounded by its massive and irregular enclosure walls, with a mosque at its feet, was founded in the 7th century by Arab conquerors who had come from the east to convert the Maghreb populations to Islam. And Waddan did indeed become one of the main centres for the spread of Islam.
The citadel of Waddan also included dwellings for the population within its walls. An impressive 35 kilometre-long underground canal provided the fortress with water directly from a spring in the El-Bhallil mountains. It was the symbol of the rulers' cleverness and cunning, for it served both to provide water and as a defence against enemies. Waddan remained the capital of Arab Al Jufrah until the Ottoman rulers transferred their centre of power to Sokna.
Hun has a history of several different settlements, each being built to replace an earlier village swallowed up by the desert. Which explains why it is called the “migrating town”. Although we have no information on the exact period when Izkan (also known as the “first Hun”) was founded, we do know that the settlement disappeared five centuries ago, perhaps after an earthquake, a flood or a plague, but definitely as the consequence of a sudden and unexpected scourge.
The “second Hun” was built under Turkish rule and flourished for three and a half centuries, when it was eventually abandoned due to the sand storms that inexorably eroded the walls of the buildings. In the mid-19th century the inhabitants submitted a request to the Ottoman rulers, asking for permission to build a new town. This was to be the “third Hun”, a quadrangular, typically Arab structure that replaced the structure of the earlier Berber-style concentric settlements (like Waddan, Sokna and Zellah).
In the 1970s the “third Hun” was itself abandoned, and left to fall into ruins, as the inhabitants opted for dwellings with more modern comforts (such as bathrooms inside the buildings). Today the “old town” still provides a highly evocative backdrop for exhibitions of local craftsmanship. The area where the “second Hun” stood is today a favourite place for picnics in the dunes, offering as it does a splendid view of the Marabout (a shrine and place of worship that has developed around the tomb of a holy man) and spectacular sunsets.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Zuwara Amazigh
Is nessim Bey a Berber?
EDIT: Credit I see now what you are showing brother.
That is what I am wondering about.
I was still gathering info, but you moved on quick. See quite a few things have to be sorted out here on the history of Libya and her people.
quote: Resigned, May 12, 1850.
After his resignation he entered the Turkish Army as Bim-bachi (Commandant or Major), Feb. 4, 1854, and Caimacan (Lieut.‑Colonel), June 19, 1854, under the name of Nessim Bey. Resided in Paris, France, 1854‑61.
Served during the Rebellion of the Seceding States, 1862‑64: in organizing Regiment, Aug. to Dec., 1862; in garrison at Gloucester Point,
quote: Berbers, or Amazigh, make up 5-10% of Libya's six million population
Members of Libya's minority Berber, or Amazigh, community have stormed the parliament building in Tripoli.
A spokesman for the General National Congress (GNC) said windows were smashed, furniture destroyed and documents belonging to deputies stolen.
There were no reports of any injuries after the incident, which happened during a break in a regular session.
The Amazigh were demanding that the future constitution recognise their language, ethnicity and culture.
Though they make up just 5-10% of Libya's six million population, Amazigh predate the Arab settlers who brought Islam with them from the east.
They suffered decades of repression and discrimination during the rule of Muammar Gaddafi, who was overthrown during an uprising in 2011.
Gaddafi saw Amazigh as a threat to his view of Libya as a homogenous Arab society. The Amazigh language and script Tamazight, which is distinct from Arabic, were officially banned and could not be taught in schools. Giving children Amazigh names was forbidden.
Amazigh fighters played an important role in the armed rebellion against the Gaddafi regime. One of the main fronts was in the Nafusa Mountains, where the population is predominantly Amazigh.
Unfortunately the BBC did not say a bleep about Ottoman descendants in Libya. At least not in this article.
So who are those other people, who make up the remaining 95-90%?
Especially when they do these DNA studies on the present population, I'm wonder? Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Zuwara Amazigh
Is nessim Bey a Berber?
EDIT: Credit I see now what you are showing brother.
That is what I am wondering about.
I was still gathering info, but you moved on quick. See quite a few things have to be sorted out here on the history of Libya and her people.
quote: Resigned, May 12, 1850.
After his resignation he entered the Turkish Army as Bim-bachi (Commandant or Major), Feb. 4, 1854, and Caimacan (Lieut.‑Colonel), June 19, 1854, under the name of Nessim Bey. Resided in Paris, France, 1854‑61.
Served during the Rebellion of the Seceding States, 1862‑64: in organizing Regiment, Aug. to Dec., 1862; in garrison at Gloucester Point,
quote: Berbers, or Amazigh, make up 5-10% of Libya's six million population
Members of Libya's minority Berber, or Amazigh, community have stormed the parliament building in Tripoli.
A spokesman for the General National Congress (GNC) said windows were smashed, furniture destroyed and documents belonging to deputies stolen.
There were no reports of any injuries after the incident, which happened during a break in a regular session.
The Amazigh were demanding that the future constitution recognise their language, ethnicity and culture.
Though they make up just 5-10% of Libya's six million population, Amazigh predate the Arab settlers who brought Islam with them from the east.
They suffered decades of repression and discrimination during the rule of Muammar Gaddafi, who was overthrown during an uprising in 2011.
Gaddafi saw Amazigh as a threat to his view of Libya as a homogenous Arab society. The Amazigh language and script Tamazight, which is distinct from Arabic, were officially banned and could not be taught in schools. Giving children Amazigh names was forbidden.
Amazigh fighters played an important role in the armed rebellion against the Gaddafi regime. One of the main fronts was in the Nafusa Mountains, where the population is predominantly Amazigh.
So who are those other people, who make up the remaining 95-90%?
Especially when the do these DNA studies on the present population.
Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.
Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING: Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.
Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.
Oh, there is certainly information out there about and on their presence of Ottoman ancestry and descendants in Libya.
And here is "500 YEARS IN TURKISH-LIBYAN RELATIONS"
Unfortunately the author; ORHAN KOLOĞLU, doesn't mention the Phoenicians allot, but for one time only.
quote: I. THE PRE-OTTOMAN ERA
Libya before the arrival of the Turks:
The word “Libya” in early history was a geographical expression. As written by one source:
As used by the ancient Greeks, it referred generally to North Africa, comprising the southern littoral of the Mediterranean from the Nile Delta to the Atlantic, and also its desert hinterland and oases. The name derives from a single tribe established in eastern Cyrenaica early in the 2nd millennium B.C. There is reason to think that the territory as a whole showed a considerable degree of uniformity of race and culture (...) The physical type of the people was clearly Mediterranean, and contrasted with the Negroid races inhabiting the desert to the south. Their way of life was that of shepherd nomads loosely organized into tribes and confederations (...) They had their own kingdom (...) Later, Libya was colonized by the Greeks, and eventually passed under Roman control. It subsequently came under Muslim-Arab domination, followed by the Ottoman suzerainty.
1 The word “Libya” ceased to circulate in the post Greek and Roman periods, when North Africa remained divided under different rulers. Tripolitania (Ottoman Trablous al gharb), Cyrenaica = Barca 2 and Fezzan were distinct entities.
Separated by the Gulf of Sirte, Tripoli, at all times, was known to be part of Maghreb, and Cyrenaica of Mashrek. On the other hand, Fezzan was always conceived to be independent from both Tripoli and Cyrenaica.
(Page 11)
[...]
In the interaction between Libya and the Mediterranean politics and trade, Tripoli, the main port in Libya, has played major roles:
From the strategic point of view, the area between Tripoli- Siracuse and Bone-Trepani forms a corridor that splits the Mediterranean.4 For those who would try to dominate either the Eastern or the Western Mediterranean, Tripoli constitutes a strategic point that must be captured in order to pass across the other side. ‘For this reason, do we have to be surprised?’ asks Braudel.5 He connects majority of the wars taking place in this region during the 16th century to the domination of the Mediterranean; these wars include Tripoli (1511,1551), Djerba (1510,1520,1560), Tunis (1535,1573,1574), Bizerte (1573,1574), and Malta (1565). Moreover, Braudel propounds that Spain’s great interest in capturing Tripoli in 1510 was because it needed a reliable route along the southern coast in order to transport the rich Sicilian wheat.
(Page 14)
[...]
The establishment of Phoenician colonies along the Libyan coast for the purchase of goods – gold, ivory, and feathers – and slaves from Central Africa and Sudan is also a mark of the historical appeal of this transit trade.1 On the other hand, local Libyan trade was of little importance because of the plain way of life and limited production capability of the Saharan people. They could only offer dates, salt, wax, in exchange for wheat, cloth, etc...
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING: Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.
Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.
Here is some other info, you'll find interesting:
Turkey Seizes Libyan Bank Assets
quote:
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, center, in Benghazi Sunday. European Pressphoto Agency
ISTANBUL—Turkey seized control of Libyan bank assets Monday, one day after recognizing Libya's opposition in Benghazi as the country's legitimate government, in moves that effectively severed remaining ties to Col. Moammar Gadhafi.
In a statement, Turkey's Savings Deposit Insurance Fund said it had taken temporary control of Libya's 62.37% stake in A&T Bank, formerly known as the Arab-Turkish Bank, in response to United Nations Security Council resolution requirements.
A&T Bank was formed 30 years ago to facilitate Turkish trade, primarily with Libya, and underwrote over $2 billion in letters of credit and guarantee in 2010, according to the bank's annual report.
Muammar Gaddafi's son rejects calls for his father to step down and says that Western powers have made themselves "legitimate targets" for retaliation. Jessica Gray reports.. Video Courtesy of Reuters.
Click image
The bank had 1.4 billion Turkish lira ($862.7 million) in assets, the report said. That move, and Sunday's recognition of the Libyan opposition's National Transitional Council, appeared to close the circle on Turkey's gradual shift from being one of Col. Gadhafi's staunchest supporters at the start of the country's fighting in February, to aligning clearly with the opposition.
Over the past two months in particular, Turkey's leaders have been adjusting a foreign policy that went under the rubric "zero problems with neighbors" to changes forced by the Arab Spring, analysts say. In Libya as in Syria, Turkish foreign policy had been built on strong ties with leaders now targeted by mass revolts.
"The demands of the people for reform must be met. Al-Gadhafi must go. Libya must not be divided. We recognize the [National Transitional Council] as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people," Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Sunday, while visiting the Libyan opposition stronghold Benghazi, according to Turkey's state-run Anatolian news agency.
Mr. Davutoglu arrived with a delegation of about 100 government officials and businessmen in response to opposition calls for urgent infrastructure reconstruction aid, according to an official involved in the trip. The Turkish foreign minister promised $100 million in cash aid and $100 million in projects for Libya, in addition to $100 million already pledged, Anatolian reported.
Selcuk Unal, the foreign ministry spokesman, said the visit was unrelated to recent public threats from Libyan opposition leaders that a post-Gadhafi government would favor countries that had actively supported them, over those that had stood by.
"This trip was planned six or eight weeks ago," Mr. Unal said, adding that it was delayed first by Turkey's national elections June 12, in which Mr. Davutoglu ran for a seat in Parliament, and then by difficulties of lining up schedules. He also stressed that Turkey hasn't severed diplomatic relations with Tripoli, although the Turkish embassy was evacuated in early May.
Turkish officials acknowledge that Ankara's response to the unrest in Libya has been affected by its economic interests. At the outset of the conflict, some 25,000 Turkish citizens were living in Libya and had to be evacuated. In 2009-2010, Turkish companies launched $7.6 billion in construction contracts in Libya, according to Turkey's Foreign Economic Relations Board, or DEIK. Most of these contracts are in areas of Libya still under Col. Gadhafi's control.
When fighting first broke out, Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdog an spoke out vehemently against any military intervention in Libya, accusing Western allies of seeking to exploit Libya's oil resources. At one point, protesters in Benghazi burned the Turkish flag. But Ankara eventually joined Western allies in calling for Mr. Gadhafi's resignation.
Monday's statement by the insurance fund said the Libyan shares in A&T Bank were being seized in response to UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973 on Libya, which were passed in late February and mid-March. The statement gave no explanation for the delay. A spokesperson for the bank didn't respond to phone and e-mailed requests for comment.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what you should have said in 2011 was that Saif Gaddafi said that Libya was half black
But instead you left out his name and said that "Libya is 50% black" making it sound as if that was hard statistical data
Perhaps the largest group of indigenous black African inclusive of parts of Libya are the Tubu ( aka Toubou).They live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan and are roughly estimated to be 350,000 There are also the Toureg estimated to be 10,000 - 17,000 and it is hard to said what portion of them is "black". The idea that Libya is 50% indigenous black is ridiculous. All one needs to do is look at the ethnic groups and they are under half a million in an overall population of 6.5 million
Out of a population of about seven million people in Libya, about one million are believed to be from sub-Saharan African countries. There are no concrete figures. Reports claimed that about three quarters of these Africans are sort of on a waiting list to try by any means to cross to Europe.
^^^ So most blacks in the country are migrant workers. If you add this to the indigenous and the descendants of Ottoman slaves who are earlier Sudanese or other SSA you get a figure well under 50% Must we not question this just because we like the sound of it ?
My guess is that Saif Gaddafi was greatly exaggerating the size of the black population in Libya for politcial reasons in an interview. The Gaddafis are masters of rhetoric and under duress from being overthrown by the rebels/NATO So Libya was 50% black all these deacdes and now only when Gaddafi is overthrown does this "fact" come out ??
Main minority groups: Berber (Amazigh) est. 236,000 to 590,000 (4-10%), Tuareg est. 17,000 (0.3%), foreigners, 600,000 documented (10%) and 1.1-1.2 million undocumented (18-20%)
[Note: Reliable statistics for Libya are unavailable. Estimates for the numbers of Berber speakers vary between four and ten per cent. The number of Tuareg is from the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in 2009. The numbers for foreigners are Libyan government figures cited by Human Rights Watch (HWR) in 2006.]
Demographic data for Libya is scarce, but around 90 per cent of the population belongs to the Arabic-speaking majority of mixed Arab–Berber ancestry. The Sunni branch of Islam is the official and nationally dominant political, cultural and legal force. Berbers, who retain the Berber language and customs, are the largest non-Arab minority. Libyan Berbers call themselves Amazigh (plural: Imazighen) and are one of the indigenous populations of North Africa. They are made of up of different ethnic groups, including nomadic Tuareg. Other minorities include the Arabic-speakers of West African ancestry, who inhabit the southern oases, and the Berber-related Tuareg and Tebu (Toubou), who live in the south of the country.
Summary prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in accordance with paragraph 15 (c) of the annex to Human rights Council resolution 5/1: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Your post is certainly interesting, especially seen from this perspective! It sheds a "new light".
quote: In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
(Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104)
quote:• 27 B.C.–14 A.D.The principate of Augustus is established. Rome is transformed into a city of marble. The Roman frontiers are expanded and semiconquered territories reinforced. Augustus reconciles with Parthia (22–19 B.C.), and his campaign against Garamantes in Africa is successful (19 B.C.). Many social and religious reforms are enacted. Gaul and its frontiers are organized (15–13 B.C.). The imperial mint at Lugdunum is founded (15–14 B.C.).
quote: The findings challenge a view dating back to Roman accounts that the Garamantes consisted of barbaric nomads and troublemakers on the edge of the Roman Empire.
quote: The Phoenician port of Lpgy was founded at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC and first populated by the Garamantes. The city, which was part of the domain of Carthage, passed under the ephemeral control of Massinissa, King of Numidia. The Romans, who had quartered a garrison there during the war against Jugurtha, integrated it, in 46 BC, into the province of Africa while at the same time allowing it a certain measure of autonomy.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what you should have said in 2011 was that Saif Gaddafi said that Libya was half black
But instead you left out his name and said that "Libya is 50% black" making it sound as if that was hard statistical data
Perhaps the largest group of indigenous black African inclusive of parts of Libya are the Tubu ( aka Toubou).They live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan and are roughly estimated to be 350,000 There are also the Toureg estimated to be 10,000 - 17,000 and it is hard to said what portion of them is "black". The idea that Libya is 50% indigenous black is ridiculous. All one needs to do is look at the ethnic groups and they are under half a million in an overall population of 6.5 million
Out of a population of about seven million people in Libya, about one million are believed to be from sub-Saharan African countries. There are no concrete figures. Reports claimed that about three quarters of these Africans are sort of on a waiting list to try by any means to cross to Europe.
^^^ So most blacks in the country are migrant workers. If you add this to the indigenous and the descendants of Ottoman slaves who are earlier Sudanese or other SSA you get a figure well under 50% Must we not question this just because we like the sound of it ?
My guess is that Saif Gaddafi was greatly exaggerating the size of the black population in Libya for politcial reasons in an interview. The Gaddafis are masters of rhetoric and under duress from being overthrown by the rebels/NATO So Libya was 50% black all these deacdes and now only when Gaddafi is overthrown does this "fact" come out ??
Main minority groups: Berber (Amazigh) est. 236,000 to 590,000 (4-10%), Tuareg est. 17,000 (0.3%), foreigners, 600,000 documented (10%) and 1.1-1.2 million undocumented (18-20%)
[Note: Reliable statistics for Libya are unavailable. Estimates for the numbers of Berber speakers vary between four and ten per cent. The number of Tuareg is from the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in 2009. The numbers for foreigners are Libyan government figures cited by Human Rights Watch (HWR) in 2006.]
Demographic data for Libya is scarce, but around 90 per cent of the population belongs to the Arabic-speaking majority of mixed Arab–Berber ancestry. The Sunni branch of Islam is the official and nationally dominant political, cultural and legal force. Berbers, who retain the Berber language and customs, are the largest non-Arab minority. Libyan Berbers call themselves Amazigh (plural: Imazighen) and are one of the indigenous populations of North Africa. They are made of up of different ethnic groups, including nomadic Tuareg. Other minorities include the Arabic-speakers of West African ancestry, who inhabit the southern oases, and the Berber-related Tuareg and Tebu (Toubou), who live in the south of the country.
Summary prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in accordance with paragraph 15 (c) of the annex to Human rights Council resolution 5/1: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
What a absolutely silly mental exercise you have engaged in.
1. Tebou are not the only blacks there. There are so called black berbers there, tawargha, and many other groups. Your attempt to relegate blackness to one group, which you have googled, is beyond inept.
Secondly, how much more official do you want statistics than from a GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL? Also, there is a US government official who stated the SAME statistics and she has spent time there, unlike you.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Pardon me for posting these travel websites. I'm looking for historical archeological and anthropological data on Zuwarah and Gharyan. If any of you can provide this/ these, I welcome it/ them. So we can separate facts from fictions.
Thanks in advance.
quote: Tibuda
Tibuda is situated only a few kilometres to the west of Zwara city and sits about seven to ten meters under water and about 200 meters from the coast. It is not yet fully explored nor properly catalogued . Its close proximity to Zuwarah city may shed more light about the ancient history of Zuwara before its ancient coast was claimed by the sea. The disappearance of land under the sea is a common occurrence in nature and the Mediterranean sea had claimed many coastal cities in the past. It was predicted that it will continue to do so in the future especially after the predicted melting of the arctic and antarctic ice. Tibuda was the ancient port of the city of Zuwarah during the Roman period and that the port was used to export the main commodities produced by the Zuwaran communities mainly salt, lime and gypsum.
From what has been explored so far Tibuda looks like a small city with stone columns and building structures thought to have been built thousands of years ago probably dating back to the Carthaginian period. This conclusion is evidenced by the archaeological remains found south of Tibuda. These remains or ruins have always been there and were always part of Zuwarah’s history. They are located about four kilometres (4 km) west of Zuwara. As far as we know the site is not catalogued nor fully studied by any academic authority. There is no doubt that the site is very ancient because among the finds were remains of Roman villas and buildings, mosaic pieces and pottery.
Gharyan situated in north west Libya is one of the largest towns in the Nafusa Mountains. This area isn’t an overly popular tourist destination, but for those who do spend a day here get to enjoy a choice of fantastic history and culture.
Gharyan was originally a trade route and later became the center of the resistance in the twentieth century against the Italians. But it’s not this part of this town that you will want to explore, it’s the interesting Berber village that is what draws tourists to this area.
The Berber troglodytes are built underground into the rock of the mountains, very few are inhabited and they offer fantastic opportunities for you to see these interesting homes. The homes were built this way as a superb insulation technique and to keep them hidden.
You don’t see these homes until you are almost on top of them, dug into the ground they are rooms joined by passages.
Not far from Gharyan is the World War II relics that are a must to see, such as the former Italian barracks which are easily accessible along a very bumpy road.
Only one hundred kilometers from Tripoli, Gharyan is a wonderful day trip when in the area. This town is renowned for their amazing pottery, where you can buy some great souvenirs to take back home with you.
It’s an opportunity to get out of the city and explore a different part of the country. This is a very deserted area, but offers tourists a wonderful insight into the history of this part of Libya, how the locals lived and you will be amazed at how they built these interesting homes under the ground to keep them safe.
Whether you hire a car from Tripoli or take a guided tour, Gharyan should not be left off your list when visiting Libya.
What is important to understand from scientific studies is that African people and Ancient Egyptians don't just share a common skin color or geographical location, but they share a common origin, history, archaeological continuity, culture, language, religion, etc.
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.
For example, most Cushitic, Chadic and Niger-Congo speakers are carrier of the E-P2/PN2 Y-DNA haplogroup, and thus share a common origin (after the OOA). At that time, they spoke one common language. The language spoken by their common E-P2 ancestor (maybe Obenga's Negro-Egyptian).
Here below we can see most African languages like Yoruba, Somali, Afar, Dogon, Wolof, Zulu, Dinka, etc have their common origin in the same region in (north) Eastern Africa (post dating the OOA migration of non-Africans of course):
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)
There also have been a lot of admixture between African population throughout history.
We can also see it genetically (autosomal DNA):
- From The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans (2009)
From the graph above for example, you can see Yoruba are much closer genetically to lets say Kikuyu than Palestinians or Basque. My contentious is that Ancient Egyptians in general would be closer to African populations than to non-African populations, especially at the formative stage (because there's been a lot of invasions and immigration afterwards even in dynastic time).
This is supported by some mainstream sources too:
quote:Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data. In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography. -From Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt (1999) pp 328-332
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING: Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.
Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.
Not just that, there is even more.
quote:Ruled by a succession of Egyptian-based dynasties in the later Middle Ages, Cyrenaica came under the nominal suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire after the 15th century; in the mid-19th century the region became the centre of the
Sanusiyah religious brotherhood and dynasty. As a result of the Italo Turkish war, Cyrenaica, with Tripolitania, was ceded to Italy in 1912, and by 1940 about 50,000 Italian peasant colonists were converting northern Cyrenaica into the semblance of an Italian province, cultivating cereals, vines, and fruit trees.
Cyrene was the most important Greek city in North Africa, founded in the 7th century BC by a party of immigrants who had fled the drought-inflicted island of Thera in the Aegean Sea. Its early history was a volatile one and characterized by murder and conflict among the ruling families.
Under King Battus IV (515-470 BC) it enjoyed a period of relative calm and prosperity although his successor Arcesilaus IV was assassinated. From 322 BC Cyrenaica came under the control of the Greek general Ptolemy I and his dynasty.
In 96 BC the Romans took possession of Cyrenaica and it became a province of Rome eighteen years later. Thereafter it enjoyed a period of peace until a Jewish revolt in 115 AD caused widespread destruction. Following reconstruction under the Emperor Hadrian Cyrene again entered a period of prosperity.
In 365 AD, during the Byzantine period an earthquake destroyed much of the city which at the time had not yet embraced Christianity. A grand rebuilding program took place although former places of pagan worship were desecrated including the great temple of Zeus. Built on a series of levels the spectacular ruins of Cyrene include the Sanctuary and Temple of Apollo, the Acropolis, the Agora, the Forum, the Stoa of Hermes and Heracles, the House of Jason Magnus, the Nine Muses and the Temple of Zeus.
Apollonia served as the port of Cyrene, 20 km to the southwest and it was founded by Greek colonists. Through out the years it became a significant commercial centre in the Mediterranean. The area consist of a beach cut by rugged rocks, inlands there are hills all giving Apollonia a very nice setting. The Theatre is sited in a particularly picturesque location by the sea. Other buildings include the Eastern, Central, Western Basilicas and the Byzantine Palace.
Alburdi is located on the eastern coast of Libya not far from the Egyptian border and one hour drive from Tobruk. The site attracts a number of tourists for its relation to World War Two and also for its unique mountainous landscape. A newly opened luxury hotel provides an ideal base to explore and enjoy this isolated and unknown site in Libya.
Qasr Libya is located about 50 miles to the west of Cyrene city. The name Qasr Libya means the “castle of Libya”. Some archaeologists referred to this location by the name of Qasr el-Lebia or Qaser Libia. Further suggested that it may have been related to the ancient village of Olbia. This settlement was the seat of a Bishopric during the Byzantine period in classical Libya. The city was attacked several times by various invaders but it was however restored to its glory by the Byzantine emperor Justinian in 539 AD. Qasr Libya is mainly known for its 6th century Byzantine church with a stunning mosaic floor panels widely viewed as some of the world’s finest examples. The theme is mainly mythical representation of the various spiritual beings of the pre-Roman era as well as those of Christian symbolism strongly indicating a time when both Paganism and Christianity were equally tolerated. The mosaic floor was discovered in 1957 by some labourers working.
Slonta temple is a small ancient Libyan temple dating to the period before the Greek occupation. Therefore one can safely associate the cave of Slontah with the indigenous Berber culture. Slontah Temple is located about 24 km south of al-Bayda high hidden in the Green Mountain’s groves. The Slontah structure incorporates a local architecture unique to the area consisting of a low semicircular entrance with cylindrical columns in the middle of the cave.
Not much is known about this massive hole in the ground. There are those who say the hole was used as an ammunition dump during the two world wars. Some people believe the Big Hole of Cyrene is in effect a vertical cave represents what is known as Cave Geology and that the sides of the hole show that they were previously subjected to water or wind scouring. There are also similar holes exist around the world like the Golondrinas in Mexico (350 meters deep), and the Gaping Ghyll in England (50 meters deep). The place is located near Cyrene and is locally known as Haw Hajyre. The area is not fenced and it is possible the hole is full of skeletons of stray animals and the like. The depth of the hole is not known and throwing a stone in the hole return no echoes.
Tokra is a small village in Eastern Libya, located about 70 kilometres east of Benghazi city. Tokra was one of the five cities of the Greek Pentapolis. The village suitably located between the mountains and the sea is a wonderful Libyan village providing breathtaking scenery and landscape. According to archaeologists the village is a good example of how a modest Libyan (Berber) settlement would have looked like and how the majority of ancient locals would have lived. Tokra was an important export port during the Greek period which became a busy commercial centre after falling under Roman influence during the fist century BC. The city began to loose it’s status during the Byzantine period.
The port of Tolmeitha is generally know as Ptolemais. The village is located in a beautiful area between the Green Mountain and the sea about 30 km east of Breqa. It was founded as port to serve Almerj(Brega) after it became a busy commercial centre during the sixth century BC with goods arriving from the nearby ports such as Alexandria port in Egypt as well as to export the main produce of the region such as silphium, honey, butter and grains.
Tolmeitha rose to fame so quickly and became the capital of Cyrenaica during the 4th and 5th centuries AD. Historical records show that the port was originally called “Berqa Port” which also indicates the existence of the site before the Greek invasions after which it became known as Ptolemais. Places of interest include the two gate towers of Tocra Gate, the theatre, the stadium, the Basilica, the Roman Villa of Columns and the museum of Tolmeita. This museum houses a number of statues, stones, and a small collection of mosaics. Also there are several marble tablets showing various records of the main historical events of the town as well as some price lists. Ptolemais also provides a unique experience to tourists namely the descent to a large complex of underground cisterns under the agora. The capacity of this system of cisterns was said to be 6 million litres of water, originally maintained via a 25 kilometre long aqueduct.
Ptolemais Museum houses a number of archaeological treasures and ruins that were found in the region such as statues, including those of the Libyan Medusa and Cleopatra, columns, tablets, burial and funerary objects and several mosaic floors, from the Punic, Greek, Roman and Byzantine periods. One of the most unique exhibits of the museum and of historical importance, is a price tablet showing prices of goods in the Roman empire dating to the 301 AD. The museum was originally a store house used during the Italian occupation in which a number of archaeological artifacts ended up for storage and most of which still are to this day piled up in its store rooms. The store house was turned into a museum in 1960. Some of the finds are actually still outside the museum with no protection from the elements whatsoever.
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING: Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.
Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.
I do find this especially interesting, because here is where the first actual recorded colonization of Africa begins. As it spread from there to other parts of Africa, over time.
More:
quote:
Tripolitania
Tripolitania, Arabic Ṭarābulus, historical region of North Africa that now forms the northwestern part of Libya. In the 7th century bc three Phoenician colonies were established on the shores of the Gulf of Sidra, which was originally inhabited by a Berber-speaking people. These cities; Labqi (Leptis Magna), Oea (Tripoli), and Sabratah (Ṣabratha), later formed the eastern province of the Carthaginian state and account for the late Roman name Tripolitania. On the fall of Carthage in 146 bc, Tripolitania became subject to Numidian princes. After the Numidian War (46 bc), it was attached to the Roman province of Africa Nova.
The Roman emperor Septimius Severus(reigned ad 193–211) was himself originally a citizen of Leptis and endowed that city with magnificent buildings during his reign. The Vandals seized Tripolitania in 435 but were ousted by the Byzantine Greeks under the leadership of Belisarius in 534.
In 643 the Arabs took Tripoli and sacked Leptis and Sabratha, but they were unable to subdue Berber resistance in the interior for another 60 years. After a period of direct Arab rule from Damascus, Tripolitania became subject to various Arab and Berber dynasties, among them the Aghlabids (9th century), the Faṭimids (10th century), and the Ḥafṣids (14th century). In 1510 Tripoli was captured by the forces of Ferdinand the Catholic of Spain, who turned it over to the Knights of St. John in 1530. The latter lost the region in 1551 to the Ottoman Turks, who ruled it either directly or through suzerains for the next 360 years. In 1711 the local governor, Aḥmad Karamanli, won recognition from the Ottomans as hereditary pasha (governor), and his dynasty ruled Tripolitania for all but a few years until 1835.
Under the Karamanli rulers, Tripoli levied tribute on and plundered shipping in the Mediterranean, a practice that led to the Tripolitan War with the United States in 1801–05. In 1835 Ottoman Turkey resumed direct rule of Tripolitania in an effort to forestall further French expansion in North Africa.
As a result of the Italo-Turkish War of 1911–12, the Italians occupied Tripoli in 1911 and acquired all of Tripolitania from Turkey in 1912. Together with Cyrenaica and Fezzan, Tripolitania was incorporated into the kingdom of Italy in 1939. Tripolitania was the scene of fierce fighting between British and German armoured forces in 1942 during World War II. The three provinces of Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, and Fezzan subsequently formed the independent federal kingdom of Libya when it was created in 1951. These regions were administratively abolished in 1963, when Libya became a unitary state.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING: Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.
Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.
I do find this especially interesting, because here is where the first actual recorded colonization of Africa begins. As it spread from there to other parts of Africa, over time.
More:
quote:
Tripolitania
Tripolitania, Arabic Ṭarābulus, historical region of North Africa that now forms the northwestern part of Libya. In the 7th century bc three Phoenician colonies were established on the shores of the Gulf of Sidra, which was originally inhabited by a Berber-speaking people. These cities; Labqi (Leptis Magna), Oea (Tripoli), and Sabratah (Ṣabratha), later formed the eastern province of the Carthaginian state and account for the late Roman name Tripolitania. On the fall of Carthage in 146 bc, Tripolitania became subject to Numidian princes. After the Numidian War (46 bc), it was attached to the Roman province of Africa Nova.
The Roman emperor Septimius Severus(reigned ad 193–211) was himself originally a citizen of Leptis and endowed that city with magnificent buildings during his reign. The Vandals seized Tripolitania in 435 but were ousted by the Byzantine Greeks under the leadership of Belisarius in 534.
In 643 the Arabs took Tripoli and sacked Leptis and Sabratha, but they were unable to subdue Berber resistance in the interior for another 60 years. After a period of direct Arab rule from Damascus, Tripolitania became subject to various Arab and Berber dynasties, among them the Aghlabids (9th century), the Faṭimids (10th century), and the Ḥafṣids (14th century). In 1510 Tripoli was captured by the forces of Ferdinand the Catholic of Spain, who turned it over to the Knights of St. John in 1530. The latter lost the region in 1551 to the Ottoman Turks, who ruled it either directly or through suzerains for the next 360 years. In 1711 the local governor, Aḥmad Karamanli, won recognition from the Ottomans as hereditary pasha (governor), and his dynasty ruled Tripolitania for all but a few years until 1835.
Under the Karamanli rulers, Tripoli levied tribute on and plundered shipping in the Mediterranean, a practice that led to the Tripolitan War with the United States in 1801–05. In 1835 Ottoman Turkey resumed direct rule of Tripolitania in an effort to forestall further French expansion in North Africa.
As a result of the Italo-Turkish War of 1911–12, the Italians occupied Tripoli in 1911 and acquired all of Tripolitania from Turkey in 1912. Together with Cyrenaica and Fezzan, Tripolitania was incorporated into the kingdom of Italy in 1939. Tripolitania was the scene of fierce fighting between British and German armoured forces in 1942 during World War II. The three provinces of Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, and Fezzan subsequently formed the independent federal kingdom of Libya when it was created in 1951. These regions were administratively abolished in 1963, when Libya became a unitary state.
So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
This thing gets easier. I just need to change the id name now.
Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, typeZeiss , etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?
Racist-->check Pretend to be black-->check prefer to talk about skin color-->check
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This thing gets easier. I just need to change the id name now.
Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, typeZeiss , etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?
Racist-->check Pretend to be black-->check prefer to talk about skin color-->check
I am going to go out on a limb and venture to say you either A. are not a native English speaker, and you don’t understand what the words “racist” and by extension “racism” mean, or B. you are a product of a very dismal education system. Either way, let me take this time out to educate your ignorant @ss.
Racist: An advocate or supporter of racism; a person whose words or actions display racial prejudice or discrimination. Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities.
Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occas. in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities.
Not once did I espouse racist views or opinions. But, you are the same inane minded person who declared I am not black, which is comical to say the least. I would also add it is stereotyping, as you are attempting to dictate what black people should be talking about or thinking, and if they don't you resort to childish name calling. You must be from the West. We see Western Governments indulging in this same sort of deviant behavior all the time. They label political leaders, who do not share their views, with meaningless names and bestowing daft titles upon them, to try and further some hidden agenda.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^You've been exposed. It's too late now. Posting definitions of racism doesn't do any good. Basically, you're doing the same stupid **** as Mike111 on the Ancient Egypt forum.
Another one.
Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti , typeZeiss, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".
Racist-->check Pretend to be black-->check prefer to talk about skin color or geography-->check
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^You've been exposed. It's too late now. Posting definitions of racism doesn't do any good. Basically, you're doing the same stupid **** as Mike111 on the Ancient Egypt forum.
Another one.
Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti , typeZeiss, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".
Racist-->check Pretend to be black-->check prefer to talk about skin color or geography-->check
*smirk* oh
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.
. . . .
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.
.
I'm having a hard time not saying ARtU is a snivelling piece of **** liar but try to console myself knowing that in 9 years and 7 months on ES never once have I said Maghrebis or even central to west Saharans are Black Africans. I don't even use the term Black Africa(ns) (link).
I don't like it. It's stupid and no other continent is broken down by colour.
No White Europe. No Yellow Asia. Only Black Africa.
Hence my caustic coinage of White Europe and Olive Europe.
Long time back I disagreed with ARtU on some point or other and since then his emotions run away with him, poor fellow. Whenever I post something ARtU's knee jerk reflex reaction is to go ad hominem and outright lie.
For example after I post
South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab" Saharans white but we totally separate them from a category that includes most Spaniards, Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
ARtU lies about it and says I call iMazighen Black African. Totally preposterous. ARtU's problem is obvious, his head's stuck up his ass, ergo his excuse for brain cells have suffocated from the gas.
African Heritage is inclusive of all autochthonous/indigenous Africans.
TC is an ES vet. He was here already when I got here and has paid his dues over again with useful info insights but as a non-African is best to not paternally lecture us on what is or is not our heritage. That was way way out of line. I respect his right to his own opinions but he should go and should caution his own people to not identify Olive Europe as European heritage.
As far as it goes for white people of ARtU's ilk? Well ... who could be more fake than a person afraid to declare their ethnicity and copping the moniker of AE's greatest compound nTr then declaring himself ultimate? I'll leave DJ to diagnose that psychosis.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Here is the actual figure F1 from Tishkoff et al., 2009, Science 324, 1035–1044
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.
. . . .
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.
.
I'm having a hard time not saying ARtU is a snivelling piece of **** liar but try to console myself knowing that in 9 years and 7 months on ES never once have I said Maghrebis or even central to west Saharans are Black Africans. I don't even use the term Black Africa(ns) (link).
.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
* Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Other subgroups Zuwara AMAZIGH and Gharyan AMAZIGH
And ironically the majority of the population is described as Arab-Berber? According to this map.
What could this, or rather, what does this imply?
The implication is obvious. Libya, like Egypt, has been Arabized. Thus the indigenous Berber population has mixed heavily with the Arab invaders and/or been assimilated by them! The areas labeled as Berber only are the areas where Berbers have been least affected by Arabization.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Berbers of Libya.
quote: Long Description Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC. Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions. The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls. The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men. Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.
Man TP, this post inspired me to post about what happened in Turkey...To think people can't feel for the next man...Be they musilm or not is sad but Your post made me get that fire I needed to post it. Interesting post.
Peace
The Ghadama Berbers are the most politically prominent of the Berber tribes. The branch of Ghadama that has been Arabized is known as Gaddafa from whom the late Muammar Qaddafi descends.
Then there is the Nafusa tribe of Jebel Nafusa in Tripolitania.
The Zuwara tribe
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^Awjila tribe whose language is most closely related to the Siwa of Egypt.
Libyans as described by European Explorer George Francis Lyon (1795-1832): Morzouk is a walled town, containing about 2500 inhabitants, who are blacks, and who do not, like the Arabs, change their residence. . . . The town has seven gates, four of which are built up in order to prevent the people escaping when they are required to pay their duties. A man is appointed by the Sultan to attend each of these gates, day and night, lest any slaves or merchandize should be smuggled into the town. . . . Many palms grow in the town. . . . The street of entrance is a broad space of at least a hundred yards, leading to the wall that surrounds the castle, and is extremely pretty: here the horsemen have full scope to display their abilities when they skirmish before the Sultan. The castle itself is an immense mud building, rising to the height of eighty or ninety feet, with little battlements on the walls (a fancy of the present Sultan’s); and at a distance looks warlike. Like all the other buildings, it has no pretensions to regularity: the lower walls are fifty or sixty feet in thickness; the upper taper off to about four or five feet. In consequence of the immense mass of wall, the apartments are very small, and few in number. The rooms occupied by the Sultan are of the best quality, (that is to say, comparatively), for the walls are tolerably smooth, and white-washed, and have ornamental daubs of red paint in blotches, by way of effect. His couch is spread on the ground, and his visitors squat down on the sandy floor at a respectful distance; we, however, were always honoured by having a corner of the carpet offered to us.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.
. . . .
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.
.
I'm having a hard time not saying ARtU is a snivelling piece of **** liar but try to console myself knowing that in 9 years and 7 months on ES never once have I said Maghrebis or even central to west Saharans are Black Africans. I don't even use the term Black Africa(ns) (link).
I don't like it. It's stupid and no other continent is broken down by colour.
No White Europe. No Yellow Asia. Only Black Africa.
Hence my caustic coinage of White Europe and Olive Europe.
Long time back I disagreed with ARtU on some point or other and since then his emotions run away with him, poor fellow. Whenever I post something ARtU's knee jerk reflex reaction is to go ad hominem and outright lie.
For example after I post
South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab" Saharans white but we totally separate them from a category that includes most Spaniards, Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
ARtU lies about it and says I call iMazighen Black African. Totally preposterous. ARtU's problem is obvious, his head's stuck up his ass, ergo his excuse for brain cells have suffocated from the gas.
African Heritage is inclusive of all autochthonous/indigenous Africans.
TC is an ES vet. He was here already when I got here and has paid his dues over again with useful info insights but as a non-African is best to not paternally lecture us on what is or is not our heritage. That was way way out of line. I respect his right to his own opinions but he should go and should caution his own people to not identify Olive Europe as European heritage.
As far as it goes for white people of ARtU's ilk? Well ... who could be more fake than a person afraid to declare their ethnicity and copping the moniker of AE's greatest compound nTr then declaring himself ultimate? I'll leave DJ to diagnose that psychosis. [/QB]
LOL
Well I'm no psychologist and as I said on another thread I don't know what neurosis ARtU has, but he obviously has issues. And he has got some nerve to go on an ad-hominem attack against us! Nowhere have I claimed I was black African. In fact I have always been adamant about my Asian ancestry yet note that he even questions that! I owe him or anybody in this forum NOTHING in regards to my identity as such is irrelevant when it comes to the discussions we have in this forum, yet for some reason our identities or what he thinks of them causes some issue with him. Note how he leaves out lyinass in his list of "undercover racists" which makes me question his genuineness if not his sanity.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^You're not "Asian" either, you're not even a descent person, you're just a stupid racist. I will continue to judge you by your posts and I hope people keep their eyes open for idiots like you.
Idiots like him are nothing but a different version of Mike111 in Ancient Egypt.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).
1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declare them African, black or whatever 3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
I think Amun-Ra is just a Bantu supremacist which is why he is making these accusations. Most Bantu supremacist sound exactly like how he sounds.
When have Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti made the claims you stated? And I agree 100% with Tukuler that "black African" itself is a bias term.
And what Caucasian admixed population in Africa are you talking about?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).
1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declare them African, black or whatever 3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I think Amun-Ra is just a Bantu supremacist which is why he is making these accusations. Most Bantu supremacist sound exactly like how he sounds.
When have Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti made the claims you stated? And I agree 100% with Tukuler that "black African" itself is a bias term.
And what Caucasian admixed population in Africa are you talking about?
He's a complete idiot. He has the IQ of a peanut. Google his name and you'll find some of his posts. He makes the most retarded posts. That's why I reply to him the way I do. The fruit basket is obviously mentally challenged.
This is the type of intellectual threads he makes:
quote:To Beat Boko Haram Nigeria Needs 3 Things by AmunRaOlodumare: 8:00pm On Apr 25 1) Better intelligence services 2) Better police 3) Better army
The last 2 are obvious but I think the first one is too much neglected for now and for the future.
No sh!t, Captain Obvious. That was really profound. The Nigerians couldn't figure that out by themselves! Your ground-breaking epiphanies really warranted creating that thread.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
No sweat DJ
You were here when I got here. You're one of the vets, you know, one of the people who made ES AE&E the renowned premier forum that attracted people because of its iconoclasm and new paradigm breaking reading.
Without folks like you there'd be no ES forum for folks like him to come to. Let him hang himself with his own rope. But what of ES members who've benefitted from all our efforts? Why are they silent to him not blunting his groundless accusations?
Baal Hhamsa!
Still, you owe me some mythology, one of your fortes, on Shemsu Ash.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.
. . . .
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.
.
I'm having a hard time not saying ARtU is a snivelling piece of **** liar but try to console myself knowing that in 9 years and 7 months on ES never once have I said Maghrebis or even central to west Saharans are Black Africans. I don't even use the term Black Africa(ns) (link).
I don't like it. It's stupid and no other continent is broken down by colour.
No White Europe. No Yellow Asia. Only Black Africa.
Hence my caustic coinage of White Europe and Olive Europe.
Long time back I disagreed with ARtU on some point or other and since then his emotions run away with him, poor fellow. Whenever I post something ARtU's knee jerk reflex reaction is to go ad hominem and outright lie.
For example after I post
South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab" Saharans white but we totally separate them from a category that includes most Spaniards, Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
ARtU lies about it and says I call iMazighen Black African. Totally preposterous. ARtU's problem is obvious, his head's stuck up his ass, ergo his excuse for brain cells have suffocated from the gas.
African Heritage is inclusive of all autochthonous/indigenous Africans.
TC is an ES vet. He was here already when I got here and has paid his dues over again with useful info insights but as a non-African is best to not paternally lecture us on what is or is not our heritage. That was way way out of line. I respect his right to his own opinions but he should go and should caution his own people to not identify Olive Europe as European heritage.
As far as it goes for white people of ARtU's ilk? Well ... who could be more fake than a person afraid to declare their ethnicity and copping the moniker of AE's greatest compound nTr then declaring himself ultimate? I'll leave DJ to diagnose that psychosis.
LOL
Well I'm no psychologist and as I said on another thread I don't know what neurosis ARtU has, but he obviously has issues. And he has got some nerve to go on an ad-hominem attack against us! Nowhere have I claimed I was black African. In fact I have always been adamant about my Asian ancestry yet note that he even questions that! I owe him or anybody in this forum NOTHING in regards to my identity as such is irrelevant when it comes to the discussions we have in this forum, yet for some reason our identities or what he thinks of them causes some issue with him. Note how he leaves out lyinass in his list of "undercover racists" which makes me question his genuineness if not his sanity. [/QB]
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
What they are trying to avoid:
I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).
1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declare them African, black or whatever 3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians. [/QB]
please list three examples of shared history and/or culture between West Africans and ancient Egyptians
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!
I bet I can actually name more specific West African customs than you, and not general customs which are found all over the continent!
quote:Amun-Ra The Ultimate wrote: What they are trying to avoid:
I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).
1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declare them African, black or whatever 3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.
So why don't you provide actual examples of I or others doing the above! Quote actual posts where we say such things!!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I think Amun-Ra is just a Bantu supremacist which is why he is making these accusations. Most Bantu supremacist sound exactly like how he sounds.
When have Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti made the claims you stated? And I agree 100% with Tukuler that "black African" itself is a bias term.
And what Caucasian admixed population in Africa are you talking about?
LOL Why not? We've had Horner supremacists in the past whom we soundly debunked. I knew it would be a matter of time before (another) Bantu-supremacist would show up.
I still await for Amun-Ra to provide evidence of our (Tukuler, Swenet, and my) guilt of the things he accuses us of. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I haven't read the entries yet but I google searched "bantu supremacist" and got 8 results
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So why don't you provide actual examples of I or others doing the above! Quote actual posts where we say such things!!
I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!
You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.
We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So why don't you provide actual examples of I or others doing the above! Quote actual posts where we say such things!!
I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!
You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.
We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.
What is your contention in relation to Kush/Kemet and West Africa? From my research it would seem that they all share a common ancestry i.e. whatever they were doing in the Sahara prior to moving into West African areas and Nile Valley. This movement west seems to start around 3,000 BCE for Mande speaking peoples and maybe a little earlier for those groups that found their way into the Nile Valley. I believe it was later for the western saharan groups because the western sahara went hyper arid a bit later than the eastern sahara.
Another interesting to note is the almost exclusive use of adobe for home building in Kush/Kemet and among certain mande groups. Although, stone building for homes among Mandes is not uncommon as can be seen it Tichett and in Sierra Leone where the government of the Southern reach of the Mande empire as it stretched to Cote d'Ivore, Liberia and Sierra Leone as found in of Sierra Leone were also built from very similar construction as is found in Tichett. Makes me believe that Mandes, when given the availability of resources build in stone, and when resources aren't available, they build in Adobe.
Either way, there is definitely a clear relationship between Kemet/Kush and West Africa, this is undeniable. This isn't to take away from the fact that I also believe there were migrations through out the centuries from the Nile Valley into West Africa, as some groups have historical records of migrating from the east, such as some Fulas, Temnes etc. Ignorant westerners like to paint Africa and certain, so called ethnic groups, with one brush, and this doesn't work. As these groups are not homogenous. For example, certain western Yoruba are actually Mande, but they were absorbed into a Yoruba kingdom. My point in saying that is, just because someone is called Mande today, doesn't mean he has the same origin as the wider group, as peoples were absorbed. In Sierra Leone, a lot of the Mende people are short, and this is because upon arrival, Mande people absorbed the Pigmy population which lived there originally.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Another interesting to note is the almost exclusive use of adobe for home building in Kush/Kemet and among certain mande groups. Although, stone building for homes among Mandes is not uncommon as can be seen it Tichett and in Sierra Leone where the government of the Southern reach of the Mande empire as it stretched to Cote d'Ivore, Liberia and Sierra Leone as found in of Sierra Leone were also built from very similar construction as is found in Tichett. Makes me believe that Mandes, when given the availability of resources build in stone, and when resources aren't available, they build in Adobe.
Either way, there is definitely a clear relationship between Kemet/Kush and West Africa, this is undeniable. This isn't to take away from the fact that I also believe there were migrations through out the centuries from the Nile Valley into West Africa, as some groups have historical records of migrating from the east, such as some Fulas, Temnes etc. Ignorant westerners like to paint Africa and certain, so called ethnic groups, with one brush, and this doesn't work. As these groups are not homogenous. For example, certain western Yoruba are actually Mande, but they were absorbed into a Yoruba kingdom. My point in saying that is, just because someone is called Mande today, doesn't mean he has the same origin as the wider group, as peoples were absorbed. In Sierra Leone, a lot of the Mende people are short, and this is because upon arrival, Mande people absorbed the Pigmy population which lived there originally.
The reality of "Migration" has to be a key factor in any study of ancient Africa.
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Yes, Ancient Egyptians and African populations share a common origin somewhere in (North-) Eastern Africa. You can see it genetically and linguistically (common geographic origin of African languages in Eastern Africa). This at a time period post-dating the Out of Africa migration.
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)
The most probable origin areas of each African families lay within regions in or adjacent to the Horn of Africa.
There's also a lot of admixtures between African populations throughout history. This combined effect of common origin and admixture is why African populations cluster together in term of genetic distances. It's also why they share a lot cultural similarities. It's a similar thing for other populations too like Europeans, East Asians, Native Americans. Who tend to cluster together too (due to common origin and regional admixture).
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Another interesting to note is the almost exclusive use of adobe for home building in Kush/Kemet and among certain mande groups. Although, stone building for homes among Mandes is not uncommon as can be seen it Tichett and in Sierra Leone where the government of the Southern reach of the Mande empire as it stretched to Cote d'Ivore, Liberia and Sierra Leone as found in of Sierra Leone were also built from very similar construction as is found in Tichett. Makes me believe that Mandes, when given the availability of resources build in stone, and when resources aren't available, they build in Adobe.
Either way, there is definitely a clear relationship between Kemet/Kush and West Africa, this is undeniable. This isn't to take away from the fact that I also believe there were migrations through out the centuries from the Nile Valley into West Africa, as some groups have historical records of migrating from the east, such as some Fulas, Temnes etc. Ignorant westerners like to paint Africa and certain, so called ethnic groups, with one brush, and this doesn't work. As these groups are not homogenous. For example, certain western Yoruba are actually Mande, but they were absorbed into a Yoruba kingdom. My point in saying that is, just because someone is called Mande today, doesn't mean he has the same origin as the wider group, as peoples were absorbed. In Sierra Leone, a lot of the Mende people are short, and this is because upon arrival, Mande people absorbed the Pigmy population which lived there originally.
The reality of "Migration" has to be a key factor in any study of ancient Africa.
.
of course! I mean the great Mande empires start rather later (not including Ghana and its forerunner which starts around 3,000 BCE in Tichett), because Mande's hadn't moved further south yet. The key is to understand desertification of the Sahara, which caused northern populations to move south, east, west and even north. Then there were subsequent expansions, which are political in nature i.e. conquering of land.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!
You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.
I know perfectly well what the author Donald Redford said, but apparently YOU don't! Of course some of the features like divine kingship and headrests are general features found all throughout Africa including West Africa but also East Africa as well!! In fact, the exact forms of headrests and divine-kingship resemble East Africans much more than West Africa. The specific cultural traits are northeast African and Redford specifically states they are of *Sudanese* Khartoum Mesolithic derived assemblage like wavy dotted pottery and harpoons and later Tasian and Badarian cultures.
Nowhere did he list specific West African cultures, not that there are no connections to West Africa since the Egyptians do have some ancestry from the Central Sahara as do some West Africans! I asked you name cultural traits the Egyptians possessed that were specific to West Africans, but you have only listed general traits that East Africans have as well and are actually closer to East Africans! I'm still waiting for you to give an accurate answer. And again I bet you that I can provide more specific West African traits in Egyptian culture that are NOT found in East Africans than YOU which would then refute your LIE that I sever any ties between Egypt and West Africa!!
quote:We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.
LOL And again, nowhere do I deny West Africa's connection to Egypt via the Central Sahara as I just explained above!! The fact of the matter though is that Egypt is in northeast Africa and has far greater affinities with other northeast African cultures! Also when have I ever espoused or supported the long DEBUNKED "dynastic race" theory?!! Show me where I have ever tried to connect Egypt with Eurasian populations??! Note that the Horn is in AFRICA and not Eurasia! LOL
Please find evidence of my guilt in the following:
1- finding a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declaring them African, black or whatever 3- Then claiming Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people.
I'm still waiting Amanutcase-theUltimate for either evidence of your accusations or an APOLOGY. Because I don't take kindly to liars!! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanutcase The Ultimate: Yes, Ancient Egyptians and African populations share a common origin somewhere in (North-) Eastern Africa. You can see it genetically and linguistically (common geographic origin of African languages in Eastern Africa). This at a time period post-dating the Out of Africa migration.
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)
The most probable origin areas of each African families lay within regions in or adjacent to the Horn of Africa.
Yes, I've cited Ehret many times before on this, but didn't YOU yourself say the Horn is inhabited by Eurasian populations?!
quote:There's also a lot of admixtures between African populations throughout history. This combined effect of common origin and admixture is why African populations cluster together in term of genetic distances. It's also why they share a lot cultural similarities. It's a similar thing for other populations too like Europeans, East Asians, Native Americans. Who tend to cluster together too (due to common origin and regional admixture).
Of course, in fact unlike Eurasia where there are a lot of mountains and other geological features that act as barriers to gene-flow, Africa has very few mountains or any barriers which is why there has been constant gene-flow between African populations hence PN2 spans the whole continent. Even the Sahara wasn't a complete barrier since there are oases and aquifers that served as sources of water and even then the Sahara did not always exist as there were wet periods. Note some of this gene-flow even spilled out into Eurasia such as into the Levant and the introduction of pre-proto-Semitic and even into the Mediterranean into Southern Europe which is why Europeans are African-mixed etc.
I and others have always maintained these FACTS yet you accuse us of trying to white-wash or Eurasianize Egyptians! Why is that???
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Thanks for your posts, I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
A short but powerful explanation.
Thanks.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: A short but powerful explanation.
Thanks.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
Can you elaborate...
Thanks in advance.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
Ok, but you using the term "Libya" is inappropriate here, as it is not a word that was used by the Egyptians themselves. Libya was specifically use by Greeks and later Romans to describe ALL of Africa. Your use of the word gives a very false interpretation of that word. It also serves to obscure the facts. In this particular instance, with your using the word in this way, it does become meaningless. You are trying to attribute specific things to a specific group of people by a generic term that was applied to a entire continent filled with various ethnic groups. It would be like trying to discuss Native Americans, yet discussing them by the term "Americans". The question then comes, well which Americans? African Americans, European Americans, Hispanic Americans, etc. etc.
The Tjehenu have been associated, possibly with Fulas, as the Egyptian depictions seem to have a similar style of dress and hair styles, that can still be found among the Fulas to this day. What is interesting to note is, a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Ok, but you using the term "Libya" is inappropriate here, as it is not a word that was used by the Egyptians themselves.
Every Egyptologist in the world uses the term "Libyan". Every book you own on Egypt uses the term Libyan, Diop etc
Let's not get into semantics, you just used the word "Egyptian" That is not a word the ancient KMTs called themselves
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
It is aasumed by who other than you that the Fula mixed with white slaves or owned white slaves?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: A short but powerful explanation.
Thanks.
So, tell me.
What exactly did I mean by:
I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
And by:
A short but powerful explanation.
Thanks.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
So Lioness, was the knowledge of Greeks on the African continent limited or not?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So Lioness, was the knowledge of Greeks on the African continent limited or not?
Djehuti's not Greek, what do the Greeks have to do with it?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So Lioness, was the knowledge of Greeks on the African continent limited or not?
Djehuti's not Greek, what do the Greeks have to do with it?
Did the Greeks encountered Africans in North Africa?
Yes or no?
And if so (meaning yes), was their knowledge on the African continent limited or not?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
By reading his reply, it's clear Djehuti is an undercover racist.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!
You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.
I know perfectly well what the author Donald Redford said, but apparently YOU don't! Of course some of the features like divine kingship and headrests are general features found all throughout Africa including West Africa but also East Africa as well!! In fact, the exact forms of headrests and divine-kingship resemble East Africans much more than West Africa. The specific cultural traits are northeast African and Redford specifically states they are of *Sudanese* Khartoum Mesolithic derived assemblage like wavy dotted pottery and harpoons and later Tasian and Badarian cultures.
Nowhere did he list specific West African cultures, not that there are no connections to West Africa since the Egyptians do have some ancestry from the Central Sahara as do some West Africans! I asked you name cultural traits the Egyptians possessed that were specific to West Africans, but you have only listed general traits that East Africans have as well and are actually closer to East Africans! I'm still waiting for you to give an accurate answer. And again I bet you that I can provide more specific West African traits in Egyptian culture that are NOT found in East Africans than YOU which would then refute your LIE that I sever any ties between Egypt and West Africa!!
quote:We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.
LOL And again, nowhere do I deny West Africa's connection to Egypt via the Central Sahara as I just explained above!! The fact of the matter though is that Egypt is in northeast Africa and has far greater affinities with other northeast African cultures! Also when have I ever espoused or supported the long DEBUNKED "dynastic race" theory?!! Show me where I have ever tried to connect Egypt with Eurasian populations??! Note that the Horn is in AFRICA and not Eurasia! LOL
Please find evidence of my guilt in the following:
1- finding a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declaring them African, black or whatever 3- Then claiming Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people.
I'm still waiting Amanutcase-theUltimate for either evidence of your accusations or an APOLOGY. Because I don't take kindly to liars!!
^^^ This undercover racist is probably the most funny of them. You realize people can read or remember previous posts in the thread right? So why lying again?
But again, Djehuti doesn't have anything to say since I caught him lying about the Oxford Encyclopedia quote which indeed mentions: ""Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."". Which indeed can be seen all over Africa including West Africa. I wouldn't exclude other African populations, like East Africans, since I believe in shared conections between ALL African populations. You're the one, as well as other undercover racists, trying to divide African people into different races, different part. There's both communality and differences between African people, but they share a common origin, many cultural attributes and history with each others.
quote:I asked you name cultural traits the Egyptians possessed that were specific to West Africans,
You know people remember or can read past post right? For one, you didn't ask me anything, I was responding to the lioness. So the big question is why lie about that? Why lie that you ask me something specific about West Africa? The answer is simple, you couldn't refute my position so you have to invent a question I didn't even answer.
I believe African populations including Ancient Egyptians shared the same origin, many historical, archaeological, linguistic, cultural attributes. Not something specific to each regions. My point being Ancient Egyptians are Africans like Yoruba, Somali, Dinka, Dogon, Wolof, Zulu, Kongo, etc. You won't caught me doing some East vs West things. I leave that to the undercover racists.
quote: but you have only listed general traits that East Africans have as well and are actually closer to East Africans!
Yes, I listed general traits that East African have too. Isn't that my point? That all African populations including East and West Africans, and AEians of course, share things (origin, etc) between each others? There's both similarities and differences between indigenous African populations and cultures. Similarities comes from their common origin, migration, inter-relationship and admixture between one another. Their differences due to regionalisation. There's no point in saying Ancient Egyptian are African otherwise. Nobody never denied they were in Africa, but the racist in the past tried to tell us they were a dynastic race coming from Western Asia or even Europe, not indigenous black Africans.
quote:Yes, I've cited Ehret many times before on this, but didn't YOU yourself say the Horn is inhabited by Eurasian populations?!
Another lie. I never said the Horn is inhabited by Eurasian populations.
Many horn populations, as a borderline states, are now admixed with Eurasian populations. Which is normal. They are still mostly African but they got a substantial amount of Eurasian admixtures.
What I said, is that undercover racists like to use Horners, as proxy eurasian population since they got admixture with Eurasian population in recent time. Same with modern Egyptians.
Genetically, you can see it, for example, by the presence of F-descendants y-DNA haplogroups (like J) in those populations. What is important to understand is that modern Egypt, the Horn, Africa in general and many places in the world (eg Mesopotamia) have a completely different ethnic composition now than 5000 years ago!!! For example, Horners weren't as admixed in Ancient time as they are now. While most of them are still mostly African, and thus are related to Ancient Egyptians, undercover racists loves them because of their Eurasian admixture and connection. You do seem to like them too, from what I see. At one point, talking ills of horn supremacist and then becoming one of them in the same post!
You said, "actually closer to East Africans". So you mean modern East Africans right?
QED
Now, I just hope people keeps their eyes open for those undercover racists. They are fake black Africans (or fake Asian in the case of Djehuti). They are liars.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
When reading the ancient literature use of the term "Scythian" may not always be associated with "white". The term Scythian was also applied to the Kushites in Eurasia.
To the Greco-Romans Ethiopia and Scythia were not considered opposites of each other.
Homer was Xanthos: a Black Man. The leading characters in his books were Negro/Black men and women.
Aeschylus describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" or dark skinned and that he originally lived in Africa.
Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
There are many light skinned Africans who have never mixed with Europeans. Apollo is chrysaeros 'bearing a golden sword'
Artemis is eustephanos which has no relation to fair
Neptune is kyanochaites 'bluish or Blackish like dark deep waves of the ocean
Achilles is xanthos 'brown'
As a result, Homer is talking about different black or negro ethnicities, who were either light brown (xanthos) or dark brown (ethiop). Xanthos and Ethiop represent the idea of the two Kushites living in the south Ethiopia, and Asia, Scythia.
The Greco-Romans, as noted in the writings of Rawlinson, recognized Scythia as Asian Kush, and the ‘Scythians' were recognized as Kushites.
Chambers wrote:
“Ephorus ,too (405B.C.)seems to have had a great impression of the power of the Ethiopians, since he names in the east, the Indians—in the south the Ethiopians—in the west, the Celts—in the north, the Scythians, as the most mighty and numrous people of the known earth. Already in Strabo’s time, however, their ancient power had gone for an indefinite period, and the Negro states found themselves, after Meroe had ceased to be a religious capital …”
The Ephorus map, the Classical authors and writers familiar with the Classics like Rawlinson saw the people living in Scythia and Ethiopia (lands below Egypt) as nations founded by Kushites. This makes the premise of article under review as an example of extremes: Blacks in the South and Whites in the north unfounded. To the ancients this was just a fight between two Kushite (black) nations. The present author has been blinded by modern populations living in Europe today, as the representatives of the former xanthos (brown) population, instead of the Indo-european population which presently live in the modern countries the Greeks called: “Scythia” who consider themselves to be 'white'..
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: The Tjehenu have been associated, possibly with Fulas, as the Egyptian depictions seem to have a similar style of dress and hair styles, that can still be found among the Fulas to this day. What is interesting to note is, a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
Great discussion of the term Libya. Some "white" slaves may have been among the Fula, but the widespread presence of haplogroup R among Africans indicate an African origin of this hapolgroup.
I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 in Europe is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010). Y-Chromosome R1b1b2 has high frequencies in England, France, Italy and Germany (Balaresque et al, 2010). Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 .
An interesting finding of Henn et al was the discovery of the Eurasian clade R1b1b1a1a among the Khomani San of South Africa.
Henn et al was surprised by this revelation of R-M269 among this Khoisan population. As a result, he interviewed the carries of R1b1b2a1a, and learned that no members of their families had relations with Europeans. The presence of R lineages among HG populations is not new. Wood et al reported Khoisan carriers of R-M269. Bernielle-Lee et al, in their study of the Baka and Bakola pygmies foud the the R1b1* haplogroup . These researchers made it clear that the Baka samples clustered closely to Khoisan samples.
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people) range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18, V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. Berniell-Lee et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009). The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).
The early coalescent estimate of M269*+L23 (x M412) chromosome between 8.5-12 kya (1) , suggest an African genesis for M269, rather than Southwest Asia, since we see not only Sub-Saharan populations entering the area around this time they also bring with them Sub-Saharan fauna (4) ; and African groups who carry R1b are not of Middle eastern Origin (5).
Many of the African populations that carry R1* M173 are associated with the the Kushite people of Nubia (6) . As a result we find many Eurasian ethnonyms of Anatolia and Mesopotamia that indicate a Kushite presence including the Ksaka tribe (7) ; and Kings of Kish/Kush (6) .
In summary the most common R haplogroup in Africa is V88. Given the interaction between HG groups and agropastoral groups they live in close proximity too, we would assume that African HG would carry the V88 lineage. Yet, as pointed out above the HG populations carry R-M269 instead of V88 (1-3). The implications of R-M269 among HG populations, and Henn et al’s of shared African HG genome suggest that R-M269 may represent a HG genome.
References
1. Myres N, Rootsi S, Lin A, et al. 2010. A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe. Eur Jour of Hum Genet advance online publication 25 August 2010; doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146.
2.Haak W, Balanovsky O, Sanchez JJ, Koshel S, Zaporozhchenko V, et al. 2010 Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities. PLoS Biol 8(11): e1000536. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536
3.Caramelli,D.,Lalueza-Fox,C., Vernesi,C., Lari,M.,Casoli,A., Mallegni,B.C., Dupanloup, I., Bertranpetit,J., Barbujani,G., Bertorelle,G. (2003). Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000 year-old anatomically modern Europeans. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A., 100 (11):6593-6597.
4.Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads:Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, Am Anth,102(1) .
9. Dieulafoy, M.A.2010.. L' Acropole de Suse d'après les fouilles exécutées en 1884, 1885, 1886, sous les auspices du Musée du Louvre. Retrieved 04/04/10 from :http://www.archive.org/stream/lacropoledesused01dieu#page/2/mode/2up
10. Tomczyk,J., Jedrychowska-Danska, K., Ploszaj,T & Witas H.W. (2010). Anthropological analysis of the osteological material from an ancient tomb (Early Bronze Age) from the middle Euphrates valley, Terqa (Syria) , International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, Retrieved 04/04/10 from (www.interscience.wiley.com)DOI:10.1002/oa.1150.
11. Ricaut,F.X. and Waelkens.2008. Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzatine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements, Hum Biol, 80(5):535-564.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^^ Low-intensity contact between Egyptians and Tjemehu/Tjehenu typifies Egypto-Libyan relations from the beginning of the dynastic period to the late 18th Dynasty. So we're talking about low-intensity contact.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
It is aasumed by who other than you that the Fula mixed with white slaves or owned white slaves?
Shomerka Keita makes mention of it in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4sbLY6rxxg at one point. He was surprised that there is European DNA there because he said the Fulas in question didn't seem to have empire from which to absorb these groups. But that is assuming they didn't. They may have long ago. Who knows.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
You're daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
Also, if you think discussing the meaning of words, to ensure people are using the words properly is a diversion, I think it shows how low you mental capacity is. If someone is using words incorrectly, it totally obscures and obfuscates the discussion. Now I think we are all on the same page, as we now clearly understand the meanings of these words. Most people think Libya is North Africa, and it is not. It does not denote some mythical white group of people living in North Africa as, back then outside of Greek settlements, whites were not present in North Africa, them be the facts. Libya = all of Africa. Doesn't denote white berbers or white peoples. It is just the name of a continent full of black peoples.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
When reading the ancient literature use of the term "Scythian" may not always be associated with "white". The term Scythian was also applied to the Kushites in Eurasia.
To the Greco-Romans Ethiopia and Scythia were not considered opposites of each other.
Homer was Xanthos: a Black Man. The leading characters in his books were Negro/Black men and women.
Aeschylus describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" or dark skinned and that he originally lived in Africa.
Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
There are many light skinned Africans who have never mixed with Europeans. Apollo is chrysaeros 'bearing a golden sword'
Artemis is eustephanos which has no relation to fair
Neptune is kyanochaites 'bluish or Blackish like dark deep waves of the ocean
Achilles is xanthos 'brown'
As a result, Homer is talking about different black or negro ethnicities, who were either light brown (xanthos) or dark brown (ethiop). Xanthos and Ethiop represent the idea of the two Kushites living in the south Ethiopia, and Asia, Scythia.
The Greco-Romans, as noted in the writings of Rawlinson, recognized Scythia as Asian Kush, and the ‘Scythians' were recognized as Kushites.
Chambers wrote:
“Ephorus ,too (405B.C.)seems to have had a great impression of the power of the Ethiopians, since he names in the east, the Indians—in the south the Ethiopians—in the west, the Celts—in the north, the Scythians, as the most mighty and numrous people of the known earth. Already in Strabo’s time, however, their ancient power had gone for an indefinite period, and the Negro states found themselves, after Meroe had ceased to be a religious capital …”
The Ephorus map, the Classical authors and writers familiar with the Classics like Rawlinson saw the people living in Scythia and Ethiopia (lands below Egypt) as nations founded by Kushites. This makes the premise of article under review as an example of extremes: Blacks in the South and Whites in the north unfounded. To the ancients this was just a fight between two Kushite (black) nations. The present author has been blinded by modern populations living in Europe today, as the representatives of the former xanthos (brown) population, instead of the Indo-european population which presently live in the modern countries the Greeks called: “Scythia” who consider themselves to be 'white'..
.
I will defiantly do more research on this subject. I was always under the assumption that Scythian denoted white persons.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
Your daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
the quote is Djehuti's not mine
when he said Libyans he meant people living in the oases' of the Western Desert of Egypt beacause I have read his other remarks pertaining to this issue. He is not talking about Greek definitions. he is talking about the territory to the West of Egypt and people depicted on the narmer palette
The etymology of the word "Libya" or "Africa" or "Greek" is a separate topic for a different thread.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
Your daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
the quote is Djehuti's not mine
when he said Libyans he meant people living in the oases' of the Western Desert of Egypt beacause I have read his other remarks pertaining to this issue. He is not talking about Greek definitions. he is talking about the territory to the West of Egypt and people depicted on the narmer palette
The etymology of the word "Libya" or "Africa" or "Greek" is a separate topic for a different thread.
What your saying is illogical. People can not go around making up meanings of words. You do that, and no one will have any clue what you are talking about. Words have clearly defined meanings, that is what enables us to communicate with each other. Other wise we are speaking different languages. Now, the term Libyan during the time of the ancient Egyptians, during the 5th century BCE would have fallen under the Greek term, which would have been all of Africa. Again, we must use words properly. If we are talking about the people on the Narmer palette, then to use the word "Libyans" would be inappropriate, as that term would not have existed at that time. It is like using the term Nubian. That term is a relatively recent term with no truly historical accuracy. I would even argue the term Nubian is used to obfuscate the facts of what was going on in the Nile Valley. The same way this term Libyan is used to also obfuscate facts.
My argument is, let us use words appropriately so that we are all speaking of the same thing.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
You're daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
Also, if you think discussing the meaning of words, to ensure people are using the words properly is a diversion, I think it shows how low you mental capacity is. If someone is using words incorrectly, it totally obscures and obfuscates the discussion. Now I think we are all on the same page, as we now clearly understand the meanings of these words. Most people think Libya is North Africa, and it is not. It does not denote some mythical white group of people living in North Africa as, back then outside of Greek settlements, whites were not present in North Africa, them be the facts. Libya = all of Africa. Doesn't denote white berbers or white peoples. It is just the name of a continent full of black peoples.
quote:
Leptis Magna is a unique artistic realization in the domain of urban planning. It played a major role, along with Cyrene, in the movement back to antiquity and in the elaboration of the neoclassical aesthetic
The Phoenician port of Lpgy was founded at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC and first populated by the Garamantes. The city, which was part of the domain of Carthage, passed under the ephemeral control of Massinissa, King of Numidia. The Romans, who had quartered a garrison there during the war against Jugurtha, integrated it, in 46 BC, into the province of Africa while at the same time allowing it a certain measure of autonomy.
Although Leptis (the latinization of its Phoenician name) was comparable to the other Phoenician trading centres of the Syrtian coast, like Sabratha, after Septimius Severus became emperor in 193, its fortunes improved remarkably. Thanks to him, the renewed Leptis was one of the most beautiful cities of the Roman world. It is still one of the best examples of Severan urban planning.
Thereafter, Leptis felt prey to the same vicissitudes of fortune as the majority of the coastal cities of Africa. Pillaged from the 4th century and reconquered by the Byzantines who transformed it into a stronghold, it definitively succumbed to the second wave of Arab invasion, that of the Hilians in the 11th century. Buried under drifting sands, the city has only been disengaged, piece by piece, over the course of a long archaeological exploration.
The city, which was constructed during the reign of Augustus and Tiberius but which was entirely remodelled along very ambitious lines under the Severan emperors, incorporates major monumental elements of that period. The forum, basilica and Severan arch rank among the foremost examples of a new Roman art, strongly influenced by African and Eastern traditions.
The sculptures of the Severan basilica, which remain in situ, and that of the Severan arch, in the museum at Tripoli, are innovative in their linear definition of forms, the crispness of their contours and the angular delineation of their volumes: a comprehensive aesthetic, conceived as a function of the blinding African sun.
The ancient port, with its artificial basin of some 102,000 m2, still exists with its quays, jetties, fortifications, storage areas and temples. Dug under Nero and organized under Septimius Severus, it is one of the chefs d'oeuvre of Roman technology with its barrage dam and its canal designed to regulate the course of Wadi Lebda, the dangerous torrent that empties into the Mediterranean to the west. The market, an essential element in the everyday life of a large commercial trading centre, with its votive arch, colonnades and shops, has been for the most part preserved. The building, which dates from the Augustan period, was transformed and embellished under
Septimius Severus.
Warehouses and workshops also attest to the commercial and industrial activity of a city whose large prestigious monuments, arches and gates, original forum and Severan forum, temples, baths, theatre, circus and amphitheatre, only occupy a very small part of the total area. Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC
quote: A Phoenician trading-post of the Tripolitanian coast, Sabratha funnelled the products of Africa to the Gulf of the Lesser Syrtis, thanks to the route linking it to the continent via Cydamus (now Ghadamès). It was part of the short-lived Numidian Kingdom of Massinissa, together with Leptis and Oea, before being Romanized and absorbed into the Roman province of Africa, and subsequently rebuilt in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.
Sabratha enjoyed its greatest prosperity during the 2nd and 3rd centuries. This period saw the construction of grandiose monuments, of which the most renowned is that of the theatre, probably built during the reign of the Emperor Commodus (AD 161-92), with its three orders of columns of the frons scenae.
The best conserved part is the scena, recomposed with original fragments and subdivided on three levels with overlapping marble columns. The theatre had a capacity of 5,000 seats. The pulpitum has a series of decorations in bas-relief representing divinity, historical and theatrical scenes, and a series of rectangular and semicircular niches. In the central niche stands the goddess Rome with helm and shield, dressed like an Amazon. On her flank there is another divinity that represents Sabratha.
Near the theatre stands the amphitheatre with the arena where once the gladiators faced the ferocious wild animals, fighting until death. The underground corridors that were used in order to make enter can still be seen.
Other monuments and areas of interest include the Temple of Liber Pater, Basilica of Justinian, and Mosaics of the House of Jason Magnus, Capitolium, Temple of Serapis, Temple of Hercules and Temple of Isis.
The decline of Sabratha began with the 4th century: commerce with Africa was less active, the city was wracked by religious quarrels, and much of the city was destroyed by earthquakes, particularly that of AD 365. A rebuilding programme followed but the city was now to occupy a much smaller area. The Vandals invaded Sabratha in 455 and tore down its walls. The Byzantine reconquest did not, however, mark the beginning of a real renaissance and the city was definitively abandoned after the Arab invasions of the 7th and 11th centuries.
Two museums on the site house objects found during excavations, such as funerary objects, coins, china, mosaics from the Byzantine period, statues from the Roman era and Phoenician relics.
Modern Tripoli = ancient Sabratha, Lepcis Magna and Oea
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: The Greeks conquered Eastern Libya when, according to tradition, emigrants from the crowded island of Thera were commanded by the oracle at Delphi to seek a new home in North Africa. In 631BC, they founded the city of Cyrene. Within 200 years, four more important Greek cities were established in the area: Barce (Al Marj), Euhesperides (later Berenice, present-day Benghazi), Teuchira (later Arsinoe, present-day Tukrah) and Apollonia (Susah), the port of Cyrene. Together with Cyrene, they were known as the Pentapolis ("Five Cities").
So, at that time, the coastal part of Libya was divided under the two colonizations: Punic in the western part (later on "Tripolitania") and Greek in the eastern part (later on "Cyrenaica").
The internal part of Libya was not colonized. It was a far and mysterious territory called Phazania (present-day Fezzan). Herodotus in his "Histories" gives a short but significative description of the bold and belligerent local tribes: the Garamanti. Their main centre was the Oasis of Garama/Germa; another was Cydamus (present-day Ghadames). Garamanti had the control of the rich commercial lines crossing the desert and connecting the coast to the internal regions of Africa.
PHOTO shows a pre-historical rock painting with a "two-wheels" Garamanti battle chariot.
quote: In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.
General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa p. 427
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The American Naturalist Coverage: 1867-2014 (Vols. 1-183)
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Link? This sounds interesting.
I thought the Phoenicians were from the Middle East?
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Link? This sounds interesting.
I thought the Phoenicians were from the Middle East?
You do know there are black people in the middle east right? One of the groups considered to be the "true arabs" are blacks ie Hadrami people in Yemen
There is another group from Tahama region, who also claim to be "pure arabs" and they are as black as any one on the continent of Africa. So don't get confused that just because people are in the middle east, they magically turn white. Herodotus also describes Ethiopians (blacks) living in the middle east during his time.
This one is SUPER long, it is a debate with Bernal and some white professors who try to discredit him using little facts and pure emotion and obfuscation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4pzEY9ntA its 15 parts so watch it when you have time. But somewhere in there he mentions that the Phoenicians were described as black. You will see the obfuscation by the other white professors when he says that.
Blacks in Southern Arabia claim the white Arabs are the descendents of Persian invaders. If I can find a link with that info I will provide it later.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Link? This sounds interesting.
I thought the Phoenicians were from the Middle East?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
I'm still on a quest. So that will come later.
I will go till the nitty gritty. Because this happened there. Important things.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
I'm still on a quest. So that will come later.
I will go till the nitty gritty. Because this happened there. Important things.
Thanks. And yeah I've heard of blacks being indigenous to Arabia.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:
The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
quote: The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition. It is also a period of archaeological and material transition: towns and economic system change, public structures (but not churches) decay. I have analysed how classical towns changed through centuries, how building were reused and progressively transformed.
quote: The existing linguistic evidence. There is no record left of a text in the Vandalic language long enough to contain agroup of phrases forming at least one complete sentence. The unfortunatecircumstance that no written text in Vandalic has survived (if this language was everactually written down) has certainly not helped draw the attention and interest of scholars over the years toward the language of the Vandals. And, above all, it hassurely prevented our acquisition of sufficient knowledge of this language, whichhowever must have belonged, like Gothic, to the East Germanic group.As is also the case with the language spoken by the Lombards, the limitedexamples of existing Vandalic mostly consist of scattered, isolated words andpersonal names. In a sense, the extant records of the Vandal language are even less,and less important, than those of the Lombard language, since no legal terms are left,no corpus of Vandal laws remain, and no hints of Vandal juridical institutions ortraditions seem to exist. What we have instead are a few religious expressions, veryfew single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts, and one hundred and fortypersonal names. Owing to the religious debate that took place in North Africa duringthe fifth and sixth centuries between Catholics and the Arian Church of the Vandals, it is not surprising that some of the Vandalic terms we can find in late antique sourcesare related to religious life and Christian liturgy.So the only complete sentence that has been handed down to us is a two-wordreligious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” (in Greek Κύριε ελέησον, inEnglish “Lord have mercy”), which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic. We knowabout this from an anti-Arian tract, written in form of a debate, usually referred to as Collatio beati Augustini cum Pascentio ariano, dating back to the first half of the fifthcentury (approximately between 430 and 450 AD). It is supposed to have beencomposed at Hippo Regius, and was attributed to Vigilius of Thapsus, but actually its author is unknown.
quote: The Vandals spoke a language closely related to Gothic, with a few characteristics of its own. Gothic is well known through the translation of the Bible made by Wulfila in the 4th century. Like Gothic, the Vandal language belonged to the East Germanic group. It had conservative features, due to the early date of the evidence: the 5th and 6th centuries. There is no full record left of this language, since no written text in Vandalic has survived; but we know a religious expression and very few single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts of the time; most information comes from 140 personal names. Almost all linguistic evidence comes from the Vandal kingdom of North Africa. In such a peripheral position, far from its sister languages of the Germanic family, Vandalic preserved archaisms on the one hand and underwent an early process of Romanisation on the other.
Like Gothic, the language disappeared soon, and was lost about the time of the Byzantine conquest (534). It had begun to fall into disuse in certain sectors of African society as early as the second half of the 5th century. A bilingual period is however to be assumed for the descendants of the Vandals, who could also speak Latin, especially in big towns such as Carthage. From the analysis of personal names we can deduce the existence of multilingual realities in North Africa. In churches, bilingual liturgies had to be adopted for Romans and Vandals, and that is how we know about a Vandal liturgical formula.
The only complete sentence handed down to us is a two-word religious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic (cp. Gothic frauja ‘lord’). The Vand. formula froia arme ‘Lord have mercy’ appears in a Latin text as . froia . arme . quod interpraetatur “Domine miserere” and is preserved in a 6th-century rr manuscript now in Turin (Biblioteca Nazionale Universitaria, MS G.V. 26, fol. 15 -27 ), and recently studied by Tiefenbach [fig. 1].
Five more Vandalic words are mentioned in the Epigram No. 285 of Anthologia Latina (a 6th-century collection of Latin poems put together in Carthage), entitled “De Conviviis Barbaris”, which says: Inter ‘eils’ gothicum ‘scapia matzia ia drincan’ / non audet quisquam dignos educere versus. They are usually understood as ‘hail!’ (eils), ‘to shape’ or ‘create’ (scapia), ‘to eat and drink’ (matzia ia drincan), and the verse apparently alludes to barbarian feasting. To African contemporaries gothicum ‘Gothic’ could be just another name for ‘Vandal’, as they believed them to be the same language; but there were some differences. Both the Vandalic froia arme and the Epigram were well known to Wrede, the scholar who in 1886 collected all surviving traces of the Vandal language.
But since then new linguistic materials have emerged from the inscriptions of North Africa, consisting of ninety more Vandalic personal names recorded on coins, tombstones and other archaeological finds. Among these the following examples occur: Arifridos from a mosaic in Thuburbo Maius (Arifridos in [pace] vixit annos [...] depositvs di[e...] idvs novem[br..] [fig. 2]), Beremud and Beremuda from Carthage, Fridila on an inscription from ancient Caesarea, Guiliaruna on a 5th-century burial mosaic from Hippo Regius (Gvi+liarvna presbiterissa qviebit in pace), Guitifrida was another woman, like Munifrida from Carthage, Scarila a man who lived in the early 6th century, Sindivult from an inscription of Tipasa, Valilu fidelis was a woman from Hippo Regius, and Vilimut from a Carthage inscription.
Just like Gothic names, also the Vandal show both double-stem compounded forms (ex. Ari-fridos ‘army’+’peace’, Guilia-runa ‘will’+’secret’, Vili-mut ‘will’+‘courage’) and one- stem diminutives (like Valilu ‘the little chosen one’, Scarila ‘little armed band’). The latter show the typical East-Germanic suffix -ila (masc.) and -ilo (fem.). The characteristic East Germanic features appearing in Vandalic are as follows: lack of Umlaut. The original Proto- Germanic long vowel *ē is normally preserved, as in the Vand. names Gunthimer, Geilimer. Short *e gives Vand. i (ex. Gibamundus, Stilico; the Roman general Stilico was of Vandal origin). Proto-Germanic *z is always preserved: ex. Gaisericus (in Greek letters also Gezérichos), Geisirith, from *gaiza- ‘spear-point’. All such features, typical of East- Germanic, are also common to Gothic.
In a few cases the original -s ending of nominative masc. singular is preserved, as in vand. eils, and in the kings’ names Hunirix, Hildirix rex and Thrasamunds (on coins); this is clearly a rather conservative feature. Some of the names often have Romanized endings, like Thrasamundus, Gunthamundus, Gibamundus.
The main Vandalic linguistic characteristics which identify the language within the East- Germanic group are the following: the original diphthong *ai can be preserved as ai, then it tends in time to change into ei. For ex. the form Gaisericus (king 428-477) is regularly found in a 5th-century chronicle, but in other historical sources the usual form is Geisericus. Later on, we find the simplified spelling regis Gesiric on a 6th-century African inscription. Also the name of King Gelimer (530-534), son of Geilarith, is officially Geilamir, Geilimer on coins and inscriptions like the one engraved on his silver plate [fig. 3]; then we also find the spelling Gelimer in Procopius.
The adaptation of Vandalic forms to the Latin linguistic environment began rather early in the 5th century. We find for example the typical loss of h-, as in Arifridos, Ariarith, Gunt-ari (from Proto-Germ. *harja- ‘army’). A special kind of Romanisation is the emergence of mixed names, formed with Vandalic elements or suffixes, combined with Latin elements. This process began rather early, and it goes together with the quick Romanisation of Vandalic material culture as shown from archaeology. Hybrid names were formed with Latin and Vand. elements, like Iulia-teus; multiple names of heterogeneous origin are recorded in North Africa, like Flavius Vitalis Vitarit which combines the typical Vandalic name Vitarit with Lat. Vitalis, one of the most frequent names of Roman Africa. Outlining the linguistic forms of Vandalic is still a difficult task, unless new records in this language emerge from archives or from ongoing archaeological excavations.
Further Reference 1- 2- 3- F. Wrede, Über die Sprache der Wandalen, Strassburg 1886. H. Tiefenbach, “Das wandalische Domine miserere”, Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics 104, 2 (1991), 251-268. N. Francovich Onesti, I Vandali. Lingua e storia, Roma 2002.
--Nicoletta FRANCOVICH Onesti THE LANGUAGE AND NAMES OF THE VANDALS
berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
As far as I know berber has little if any link to German language. It may have stronger links to Pheonician
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
There is no proof what so ever of Berber language being related to any Germanic languages. Berber language is Afro-Asiatic and limited to Africa. Thus its African and nothing else.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
There is no proof what so ever of Berber language being related to any Germanic languages. Berber language is Afro-Asiatic and limited to Africa. Thus its African and nothing else.
The Vandals spoke a language closely related to Gothic, with a few characteristics of its own. Gothic is well known through the translation of the Bible made by Wulfila in the 4th century. Like Gothic, the Vandal language belonged to the East Germanic group. It had conservative features, due to the early date of the evidence: the 5th and 6th centuries. There is no full record left of this language, since no written text in Vandalic has survived; but we know a religious expression and very few single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts of the time; most information comes from 140 personal names. Almost all linguistic evidence comes from the Vandal kingdom of North Africa. In such a peripheral position, far from its sister languages of the Germanic family, Vandalic preserved archaisms on the one hand and underwent an early process of Romanisation on the other.
Like Gothic, the language disappeared soon, and was lost about the time of the Byzantine conquest (534). It had begun to fall into disuse in certain sectors of African society as early as the second half of the 5th century. A bilingual period is however to be assumed for the descendants of the Vandals, who could also speak Latin, especially in big towns such as Carthage. From the analysis of personal names we can deduce the existence of multilingual realities in North Africa. In churches, bilingual liturgies had to be adopted for Romans and Vandals, and that is how we know about a Vandal liturgical formula.
The only complete sentence handed down to us is a two-word religious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic (cp. Gothic frauja ‘lord’). The Vand. formula froia arme ‘Lord have mercy’ appears in a Latin text as . froia . arme . quod interpraetatur “Domine miserere” and is preserved in a 6th-century rr manuscript now in Turin (Biblioteca Nazionale Universitaria, MS G.V. 26, fol. 15 -27 ), and recently studied by Tiefenbach [fig. 1].
Five more Vandalic words are mentioned in the Epigram No. 285 of Anthologia Latina (a 6th-century collection of Latin poems put together in Carthage), entitled “De Conviviis Barbaris”, which says: Inter ‘eils’ gothicum ‘scapia matzia ia drincan’ / non audet quisquam dignos educere versus. They are usually understood as ‘hail!’ (eils), ‘to shape’ or ‘create’ (scapia), ‘to eat and drink’ (matzia ia drincan), and the verse apparently alludes to barbarian feasting. To African contemporaries gothicum ‘Gothic’ could be just another name for ‘Vandal’, as they believed them to be the same language; but there were some differences. Both the Vandalic froia arme and the Epigram were well known to Wrede, the scholar who in 1886 collected all surviving traces of the Vandal language.
But since then new linguistic materials have emerged from the inscriptions of North Africa, consisting of ninety more Vandalic personal names recorded on coins, tombstones and other archaeological finds. Among these the following examples occur: Arifridos from a mosaic in Thuburbo Maius (Arifridos in [pace] vixit annos [...] depositvs di[e...] idvs novem[br..] [fig. 2]), Beremud and Beremuda from Carthage, Fridila on an inscription from ancient Caesarea, Guiliaruna on a 5th-century burial mosaic from Hippo Regius (Gvi+liarvna presbiterissa qviebit in pace), Guitifrida was another woman, like Munifrida from Carthage, Scarila a man who lived in the early 6th century, Sindivult from an inscription of Tipasa, Valilu fidelis was a woman from Hippo Regius, and Vilimut from a Carthage inscription.
Just like Gothic names, also the Vandal show both double-stem compounded forms (ex. Ari-fridos ‘army’+’peace’, Guilia-runa ‘will’+’secret’, Vili-mut ‘will’+‘courage’) and one- stem diminutives (like Valilu ‘the little chosen one’, Scarila ‘little armed band’). The latter show the typical East-Germanic suffix -ila (masc.) and -ilo (fem.). The characteristic East Germanic features appearing in Vandalic are as follows: lack of Umlaut. The original Proto- Germanic long vowel *ē is normally preserved, as in the Vand. names Gunthimer, Geilimer. Short *e gives Vand. i (ex. Gibamundus, Stilico; the Roman general Stilico was of Vandal origin). Proto-Germanic *z is always preserved: ex. Gaisericus (in Greek letters also Gezérichos), Geisirith, from *gaiza- ‘spear-point’. All such features, typical of East- Germanic, are also common to Gothic.
In a few cases the original -s ending of nominative masc. singular is preserved, as in vand. eils, and in the kings’ names Hunirix, Hildirix rex and Thrasamunds (on coins); this is clearly a rather conservative feature. Some of the names often have Romanized endings, like Thrasamundus, Gunthamundus, Gibamundus.
The main Vandalic linguistic characteristics which identify the language within the East- Germanic group are the following: the original diphthong *ai can be preserved as ai, then it tends in time to change into ei. For ex. the form Gaisericus (king 428-477) is regularly found in a 5th-century chronicle, but in other historical sources the usual form is Geisericus. Later on, we find the simplified spelling regis Gesiric on a 6th-century African inscription. Also the name of King Gelimer (530-534), son of Geilarith, is officially Geilamir, Geilimer on coins and inscriptions like the one engraved on his silver plate [fig. 3]; then we also find the spelling Gelimer in Procopius.
The adaptation of Vandalic forms to the Latin linguistic environment began rather early in the 5th century. We find for example the typical loss of h-, as in Arifridos, Ariarith, Gunt-ari (from Proto-Germ. *harja- ‘army’). A special kind of Romanisation is the emergence of mixed names, formed with Vandalic elements or suffixes, combined with Latin elements. This process began rather early, and it goes together with the quick Romanisation of Vandalic material culture as shown from archaeology. Hybrid names were formed with Latin and Vand. elements, like Iulia-teus; multiple names of heterogeneous origin are recorded in North Africa, like Flavius Vitalis Vitarit which combines the typical Vandalic name Vitarit with Lat. Vitalis, one of the most frequent names of Roman Africa. Outlining the linguistic forms of Vandalic is still a difficult task, unless new records in this language emerge from archives or from ongoing archaeological excavations.
Further Reference 1- 2- 3- F. Wrede, Über die Sprache der Wandalen, Strassburg 1886. H. Tiefenbach, “Das wandalische Domine miserere”, Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics 104, 2 (1991), 251-268. N. Francovich Onesti, I Vandali. Lingua e storia, Roma 2002.
--Nicoletta FRANCOVICH Onesti THE LANGUAGE AND NAMES OF THE VANDALS
As you can see linguist know that the vandal language was Germanic.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The fact that the Vandals spoke a Germanic language explains the close relationship between Berber and Germanic languages.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that many contemporary Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
The barbary corsairs were primarily Ottoman Turkish operations and Moroccan sultans were involved as well.
Trinitarian monks redeeming Christian captives a volume by Pierre Dan, entitled Histoire de Barbarie, et de ses corsaires Published in 1637, it tells the story of the Barbary Corsairs whose particular preying ground was the coasts of Italy and Spain.
Crucifying a Christian slave in a Muslim courtyard
Portrait of Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha , 16th century, Louvre Museum
Hayreddin Barbarossa, born Khizr was the most famous of the Barbary pirates ("corsairs") and an admiral in the Turkish Navy. He was born in the 1470s in the Ottoman island of Midilli (Lesbos), in the village Palaiokipos, Greece to his father Yakup Ağa and to his mother Katerina. Sources refer to Khizr as a Greek,[ as a Turk,[ or as an Albanian by origin. His mother was referred as a local Christian Greek woman from Mytilene, the widow of an Orthodox priest.[ His father Yakup was referred as a Greek renegade from Mytilene or Turkish as well as a former Sipahi from Yenice-i Vardar (modern Yannitsa) and took part in the Ottoman conquest of Lesbos in 1462 from the Genoese Gattilusio dynasty (who held the hereditary title of Lord of Lesbos between 1355 and 1462) and as a reward, was granted the fief of the Bonova village in the island.
In 1544, Hayreddin Barbarossa captured Ischia, taking 4,000 prisoners in the process, and deported to slavery some 9,000 inhabitants of Lipari, almost the entire population. In 1551, Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West) enslaved the entire population of the Maltese island Gozo, between 5,000 and 6,000, sending them to Libya. When pirates sacked Vieste in southern Italy in 1554 they took 7,000 slaves. In 1555, Turgut Reis sailed to Corsica and ransacked Bastia, taking 6,000 prisoners. In 1558 Barbary corsairs captured the town of Ciutadella (Minorca), destroyed it, slaughtered the inhabitants and carried off 3,000 survivors to Istanbul as slaves.[52] In 1563 Turgut Reis landed at the shores of the province of Granada, Spain, and captured the coastal settlements in the area like Almuñécar, along with 4,000 prisoners. Barbary pirates frequently attacked the Balearic islands, resulting in many coastal watchtowers and fortified churches being erected. The threat was so severe that the island of Formentera became uninhabited.
______________________________________ European slaves in the Moroccan slave market
The ruling Alaouites, who came to Morocco from Arabia, first settled in the Tafilalet in the thirteenth century and subdued the berbers. The evil Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif , reign 1672–1727 was the second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty.
The North African slave owners took delight in torturing their whites slaves, including beating and disfiguring them until they renounced Christianity and declared themselves Muslim. Slaves were forced to disfigure pictures of Jesus Christ, as a demonstration of their new faith. Those who refused to convert to Islam were tortured to death. One account describes a woman slave whose breasts were burnt and molten lead was poured into her genitals.
“Moulay Ismail had hit upon this idea of breeding slaves early in his reign. He found mulattos to be the most trustworthy of his servant-slaves and often forced his white slaves to wed black women in order to replenish his household of loyal half-castes” __White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam's One Million ... By Giles Milton
Mulai truly enjoyed marrying off his charges and thought of it as a game. The children that came from these arranged marriages were then taken and raised by Mulai’s men to be upright and obedient Islamic slaves.
Thomas Pellow (1704 - ?) was a Cornish author best known for the extensive slave narrative entitled The History of the Long Captivity and Adventures of Thomas Pellow in South-Barbary…Pellow's chronicles his many adventures spent during his 23-year long captivity (summer 1715 - July 1738) as he was groomed from a young boy into an elite military slave in the Moroccan empire. Pellow's narrative gives a detailed account of his capture of Barbary pirates, his experiences as a slave under Sultan Moulay Ismail, and his final escape from Morocco back to his Cornish origins. According to Pellow’s account, his captivity began at the age of eleven when sailing abroad in the summer of 1716 when his ship was attacked by Barbary pirates after crossing the Bay of Biscay. Pellow traveled with his uncle, John Pellow, who was the ship’s captain alongside five Englishman. Pellow and his shipmates were taken captive and delivered to Sultan Mulai Ismail of Morocco as prisoners. Pellow was one of the individuals handed over to the sultan, and consequently, he spent the next twenty-three years as a captive in Morocco. Pellow was himself a slave, and did not have free will to act as he chose. Pellow and Black Africans who were enslaved alongside him acted at the direction of the Sultan and Pellow reports a game played by Black African slave troops of the Sultan which was used to control and scare European and White slaves. The Black African slave troops would habitually throw a white captive into the air in such a way that he would break his neck when he hit the ground. This was performed as punishment for minor infractions or imagined excuses at the direction of the Sultan.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
Berber language is not influenced by German or any other known European language
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
Berber language is not influenced by German or any other known European language
And how would YOU possibly know that?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
There is no proof what so ever of Berber language being related to any Germanic languages. Berber language is Afro-Asiatic and limited to Africa. Thus its African and nothing else.
The Vandals spoke a language closely related to Gothic, with a few characteristics of its own. Gothic is well known through the translation of the Bible made by Wulfila in the 4th century. Like Gothic, the Vandal language belonged to the East Germanic group. It had conservative features, due to the early date of the evidence: the 5th and 6th centuries. There is no full record left of this language, since no written text in Vandalic has survived; but we know a religious expression and very few single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts of the time; most information comes from 140 personal names. Almost all linguistic evidence comes from the Vandal kingdom of North Africa. In such a peripheral position, far from its sister languages of the Germanic family, Vandalic preserved archaisms on the one hand and underwent an early process of Romanisation on the other.
Like Gothic, the language disappeared soon, and was lost about the time of the Byzantine conquest (534). It had begun to fall into disuse in certain sectors of African society as early as the second half of the 5th century. A bilingual period is however to be assumed for the descendants of the Vandals, who could also speak Latin, especially in big towns such as Carthage. From the analysis of personal names we can deduce the existence of multilingual realities in North Africa. In churches, bilingual liturgies had to be adopted for Romans and Vandals, and that is how we know about a Vandal liturgical formula.
The only complete sentence handed down to us is a two-word religious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic (cp. Gothic frauja ‘lord’). The Vand. formula froia arme ‘Lord have mercy’ appears in a Latin text as . froia . arme . quod interpraetatur “Domine miserere” and is preserved in a 6th-century rr manuscript now in Turin (Biblioteca Nazionale Universitaria, MS G.V. 26, fol. 15 -27 ), and recently studied by Tiefenbach [fig. 1].
Five more Vandalic words are mentioned in the Epigram No. 285 of Anthologia Latina (a 6th-century collection of Latin poems put together in Carthage), entitled “De Conviviis Barbaris”, which says: Inter ‘eils’ gothicum ‘scapia matzia ia drincan’ / non audet quisquam dignos educere versus. They are usually understood as ‘hail!’ (eils), ‘to shape’ or ‘create’ (scapia), ‘to eat and drink’ (matzia ia drincan), and the verse apparently alludes to barbarian feasting. To African contemporaries gothicum ‘Gothic’ could be just another name for ‘Vandal’, as they believed them to be the same language; but there were some differences. Both the Vandalic froia arme and the Epigram were well known to Wrede, the scholar who in 1886 collected all surviving traces of the Vandal language.
But since then new linguistic materials have emerged from the inscriptions of North Africa, consisting of ninety more Vandalic personal names recorded on coins, tombstones and other archaeological finds. Among these the following examples occur: Arifridos from a mosaic in Thuburbo Maius (Arifridos in [pace] vixit annos [...] depositvs di[e...] idvs novem[br..] [fig. 2]), Beremud and Beremuda from Carthage, Fridila on an inscription from ancient Caesarea, Guiliaruna on a 5th-century burial mosaic from Hippo Regius (Gvi+liarvna presbiterissa qviebit in pace), Guitifrida was another woman, like Munifrida from Carthage, Scarila a man who lived in the early 6th century, Sindivult from an inscription of Tipasa, Valilu fidelis was a woman from Hippo Regius, and Vilimut from a Carthage inscription.
Just like Gothic names, also the Vandal show both double-stem compounded forms (ex. Ari-fridos ‘army’+’peace’, Guilia-runa ‘will’+’secret’, Vili-mut ‘will’+‘courage’) and one- stem diminutives (like Valilu ‘the little chosen one’, Scarila ‘little armed band’). The latter show the typical East-Germanic suffix -ila (masc.) and -ilo (fem.). The characteristic East Germanic features appearing in Vandalic are as follows: lack of Umlaut. The original Proto- Germanic long vowel *ē is normally preserved, as in the Vand. names Gunthimer, Geilimer. Short *e gives Vand. i (ex. Gibamundus, Stilico; the Roman general Stilico was of Vandal origin). Proto-Germanic *z is always preserved: ex. Gaisericus (in Greek letters also Gezérichos), Geisirith, from *gaiza- ‘spear-point’. All such features, typical of East- Germanic, are also common to Gothic.
In a few cases the original -s ending of nominative masc. singular is preserved, as in vand. eils, and in the kings’ names Hunirix, Hildirix rex and Thrasamunds (on coins); this is clearly a rather conservative feature. Some of the names often have Romanized endings, like Thrasamundus, Gunthamundus, Gibamundus.
The main Vandalic linguistic characteristics which identify the language within the East- Germanic group are the following: the original diphthong *ai can be preserved as ai, then it tends in time to change into ei. For ex. the form Gaisericus (king 428-477) is regularly found in a 5th-century chronicle, but in other historical sources the usual form is Geisericus. Later on, we find the simplified spelling regis Gesiric on a 6th-century African inscription. Also the name of King Gelimer (530-534), son of Geilarith, is officially Geilamir, Geilimer on coins and inscriptions like the one engraved on his silver plate [fig. 3]; then we also find the spelling Gelimer in Procopius.
The adaptation of Vandalic forms to the Latin linguistic environment began rather early in the 5th century. We find for example the typical loss of h-, as in Arifridos, Ariarith, Gunt-ari (from Proto-Germ. *harja- ‘army’). A special kind of Romanisation is the emergence of mixed names, formed with Vandalic elements or suffixes, combined with Latin elements. This process began rather early, and it goes together with the quick Romanisation of Vandalic material culture as shown from archaeology. Hybrid names were formed with Latin and Vand. elements, like Iulia-teus; multiple names of heterogeneous origin are recorded in North Africa, like Flavius Vitalis Vitarit which combines the typical Vandalic name Vitarit with Lat. Vitalis, one of the most frequent names of Roman Africa. Outlining the linguistic forms of Vandalic is still a difficult task, unless new records in this language emerge from archives or from ongoing archaeological excavations.
Further Reference 1- 2- 3- F. Wrede, Über die Sprache der Wandalen, Strassburg 1886. H. Tiefenbach, “Das wandalische Domine miserere”, Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics 104, 2 (1991), 251-268. N. Francovich Onesti, I Vandali. Lingua e storia, Roma 2002.
--Nicoletta FRANCOVICH Onesti THE LANGUAGE AND NAMES OF THE VANDALS
As you can see linguist know that the vandal language was Germanic.
.
Of course they do, the history of and root of the Vandals is well known.
1660s, "willful destroyer of what is beautiful or venerable," from Vandals, name of the Germanic tribe that sacked Rome in 455 under Genseric, from Latin Vandalus (plural Vandali), from the tribe's name for itself (Old English Wendlas), perhaps from Proto-Germanic *wandljaz "wanderer." The literal historical sense in English is recorded from 1550s.
There does not seem to be in the story of the capture of Rome by the Vandals any justification for the charge of willful and objectless destruction of public buildings which is implied in the word 'vandalism.'
It is probable that this charge grew out of the fierce persecution which was carried on by [the Vandal king] Gaiseric and his son against the Catholic Christians, and which is the darkest stain on their characters. ["Encyclopaedia Britannica," 13th ed., 1926]
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
It's even more complex than just that,
quote: Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
Gaiseric, and especially his son Hunneric (477-484), tried to impose Arianism on the African Catholics. This led to a relentless campaign of persecution in which priests were tortured to make them reveal church treasures and bishops were killed or exiled. Free men including wealthy landowners were enslaved or fined, and their lands were distributed amongst the Vandal warriors, while the large imperial estates were seized for the royal domain. Only Arians were appointed at court. Catholic churches were pillaged, or used as stables, and town walls were pulled down to prevent rebellion. Under Hilderic (523-531) some churches were restored to the Catholics, but Vandal pirates may still have posed a threat to Byzantine trade. The Byzantine army under General Belisarius took advantage of civil unrest to stage a rapid reconquest of North Africa in 534. King Gelimer was eventually captured while many Vandal survivors enlisted in the Byzantine cavalry to serve against the Persians and Ostrogoths, or fled to join the Moors, or were enslaved. After this, no more is heard of them, although they are still remembered for their depredations today.
Little archaeological evidence remains of Vandal presence in North Africa, except for some jewellery, and representations and personal names in a few fine mosaics, as at Annaba and Thebesa. In spite of their reputation, they seem to have largely adopted late Antique culture and an urban way of life, maintaining Roman buildings and installations and much of the old civil administration, although their kingdom was in decline by the end of the sixth century. A hoard of cut garnets found at Carthage suggests the presence of an early cloisonné workshop there.
The Vandals formed a group of Eastern Germanic peoples, originally perhaps from Jutland. They occupied lands between the Oder and Vistula rivers in the first century AD. According to a Roman historian, they lived in waggons and moved from pasture to pasture tending their herds of cattle and horses. While living in the Danube region the Vandals supplied troops for the Roman army and adopted the heretical Arian form of Christianity. Later, when they migrated to areas of the Roman Empire, Arianism set the Vandals apart from native populations.
At the end of 406 the Vandals joined with escaped slaves from Pannonia and other barbarian tribes, including the Suevi, the nomadic Alans, and some Goths, and crossed the frozen Rhine near Mainz into Roman Gaul, probably to escape from domination by the Huns. After ravaging France they crossed the Pyrenees in 409 and eventually settled in southern Spain for a while. They occupied the countryside, but left the towns to the native population. Their name might be preserved in that of Andalusia, but this is uncertain. The Vandals seized Roman ships and made piratical raids around the Mediterranean, even as far as the coasts of Greece.
Allegedly at the invitation of a disgraced Roman governor, Count Boniface, the Vandals crossed to North Africa in 429. A census, taken at that time, numbered 80,000 males amongst them. Under King Gaiseric they went on to establish an autocratic kingdom in what is today eastern Algeria and Tunisia. The kingdom centred on Carthage, the wealthy third city of the empire and Rome's main source of grain. There they built a fleet with which they were able to seize the Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Corsica and western Sicily. They even captured Rome itself briefly in 455, stripping the city of its riches and carrying off the empress Eudoxia and her two daughters. The emperor was forced to recognize Vandal rule after an attempt to recover Africa was defeated in 460 and the Vandal kings issued their own coins as a symbol of their independence.
The early Germans either buried or cremated their dead with their personal possessions, which tells us much about their way of life, as well as their burial customs. Also, both archaeological and historical evidence suggests that merchants from the Roman Empire traded wine, glass and bronze vessels, pottery and textiles in exchange for amber, furs, and slaves. The frontier was not closed and markets were set up at controlled crossings. Leaders of Germanic tribes were often given diplomatic payments of gold coins by the Romans to buy their friendship, as, in the late third and fourth centuries, larger and more permanent confederations formed. After swearing an oath of loyalty to the Emperor, Germanic warriors could serve as auxiliaries in the Roman army and even rise to high rank. Some groups were given subsidies and land to settle within the Empire. This encouraged them to cultivate deserted tracts and prevent raiding, provided that they recognized Rome's supremacy. As Roman authority declined, however, they were able to assert their independence.
In the late fourth and fifth centuries, in the so-called Migration Period, a number of Germanic peoples from beyond the Rhine and Danube set out for better lands, for various reasons - particularly to escape from the invasion of the nomadic Huns from the east, or overpopulation or flooding in their homelands. This brought them into serious conflict with the Empire, and eventually to the break-up of the western part of it and the deposition of the western Emperor himself, in 476. In the early Middle Ages, the main Germanic peoples comprised the Anglo-Saxons and Saxons, the Franks, or Merovingians, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths, Vandals and Lombards. Important, too, were the Frisians, Alemanni, Burgundians, Suevi, Thuringians and others. The Danes, Swedes and Norse of Scandinavia later became known as the Vikings.
The early Germanic peoples of northern Europe (sometimes also called the Teutons) first became known to the Classical world when a Greek merchant named Pytheas sailed into the North Sea early in the fourth century BC. According to the Roman historian Tacitus, writing in AD 98, they comprised a large number of tribes and one or two confederations, living mainly between the rivers Rhine, Danube and Vistula, in the region known as 'Germania'. The largest groups numbered probably no more than about 150,000 and they were mainly farmers, herdsmen and fishermen. They had no towns and lived in farms and villages, though some of the latter were quite large. Without overall unity, the tribes were often in conflict, both with one another and with the Romans, who regarded them as barbarians. Nevertheless, their simpler way of life was idealised by Tacitus, who saw them as preserving virtues and values which the Romans themselves had once possessed.
The Germanic tribes would have spoken very similar languages. Most modern northern European languages (for example, English, German, and Dutch) are derived from these earlier tongues. These peoples are known to have been closely related by customs, religion and material culture as well as by language.
How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
good question Trollkillah keeps posting the TRACING THE LANGUAGE OF THE VANDALS essay over and over again and it doesn't even mention berbers. If you went back several months he was suggesting that because there were no human remains identified as Vandal in North Africa that the Vandals in Africa were a myth.(flip flop) Now he's done a 180 because of Clyde, who based his remarks on his dogmatic following of outdated Diop remarks.
Have we seen any research connecting Vandal words or place names to berber , no. It's just going to be more spamming about Vandals with no connecting them to berbers
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
good question Trollkillah keeps posting the TRACING THE LANGUAGE OF THE VANDALS essay over and over again and it doesn't even mention berbers. If you went back several months he was suggesting that because there were no human remains identified as Vandal in North Africa that the Vandals in Africa were a myth.(flip flop) Now he's done a 180 because of Clyde, who based his remarks on his dogmatic following of outdated Diop remarks.
Have we seen any research connecting Vandal words or place names to berber , no. It's just going to be more spamming about Vandals with no connecting them to berbers
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
What this tells is, that those Vandals who spoke proto-Germanic have influenced the original Berber language. In certain regions. Both papers do mention North Africa and Vandals quite allot.
I yet have to figure out to what extend this proto-German was imported, in loanwords.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
do you mean genetic in terms of DNA or linguistic?
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What this tells is, that those Vandals who spoke proto-Germanic have influenced the original Berber language. In certain regions.
No it doesn't If Vandals were in the region it
1) doesn't mean they impressed on berber language a Germanic influence
2) doesn't mean mean they did not stop speaking their language and start speaking local language or Phoenician
3) The Vandals came into Africa after the Pheonicians Greeks and Romans in the area. Particular berbers the Vandals may have come into contact with in the Roman territories may have spoken Greek, Latin or Phoenician
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
do you mean genetic in terms of DNA or linguistic?
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What this tells is, that those Vandals who spoke proto-Germanic have influenced the original Berber language. In certain regions.
No it doesn't If Vandals were in the region it
1) doesn't mean they impressed on berber language a Germanic influence
2) doesn't mean mean they did not stop speaking their language and start speaking local language or Phoenician
3) The Vandals came into Africa after the Pheonicians Greeks and Romans in the area. Particular berbers the Vandals may have come into contact with in the Roman territories may have spoken Greek, Latin or Phoenician
So, you're saying that other languages didn't influence the berber language, with loanwords?
Do tell what makes you the expert here on Berber language?
Do you understand the word "influence". Not root but "influence". Okeedoke?
quote:
The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
quote: The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition. It is also a period of archaeological and material transition: towns and economic system change, public structures (but not churches) decay. I have analysed how classical towns changed through centuries, how building were reused and progressively transformed.
Ps, your advocation is transparent.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So, you're saying that other languages didn't influence the berber language, with loanwords?
Do tell what makes you the expert here on Berber language?
Do you understand the word "influence". Not root but "influence". Okeedoke?
No I did not say other languages didn't influence the berber language, with loanwords. I said it was not influenced by German
But possibly was influenced by Phoenican, particulary in written form
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So, you're saying that other languages didn't influence the berber language, with loanwords?
Do tell what makes you the expert here on Berber language?
Do you understand the word "influence". Not root but "influence". Okeedoke?
No I did not say other languages didn't influence the berber language, with loanwords. I said it was not influenced by German
But possibly was influenced by Phoenican, particulary in written form
As asked before, and how are you suppose to know that? Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there.
Here is more on their history in North Africa.
quote:• 500 North Africa is in the hands of Vandal rulers, adherents of a form of Christianity called Arianism. The Vandals are few in number, however, and rely on the Romanized African elite to maintain local institutions. The Western Church based in Rome remains powerful, with the Latin language dominant. Cities founded under Roman rule begin to lose vitality, as the urban population dwindles and civic buildings fall into disrepair. Artists continue to work in the styles current before the Vandal invasions.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
The Berbers did not come from East Africa
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Morocco )
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there.
I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there.
I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
I'm sorry, that you've mist it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
The Berbers did not come from East Africa
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Morocco )
Berbers in mutations are certainly from Northwest Africa. But eventually, the root clades are East African.
You yourself posted this:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Aterian culture is related to the Sangoan culture. I have discussed how L3(M,N) was probably spread to North and West Africa by the Sangoan population. The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (Phillipson,2005). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd and haplotype AF-24 in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. This is because it was not until 65kya that the TMRCA of non-African L3(M,N) exited Africa (Kivisild et al, 2006).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
The Berbers did not come from East Africa
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Morocco )
Berbers in mutations are certainly from Northwest Africa. But eventually, the root clades are East African.
You yourself posted this:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Aterian culture is related to the Sangoan culture. I have discussed how L3(M,N) was probably spread to North and West Africa by the Sangoan population. The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (Phillipson,2005). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd and haplotype AF-24 in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. This is because it was not until 65kya that the TMRCA of non-African L3(M,N) exited Africa (Kivisild et al, 2006).
Correct. Naturally the people would have lived in North Africa, but the contemporary Berbers did not come from East Africa. As pointed out above the Tuareg and Amazigh claim they originated in the West.
The Sangoan began I believe in Southern Africa and expanded into North Africa. I believe that the bearers of this culture were the Khoisan people. .
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Quote from the study:
]The presence of both A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade, suggesting A PRE-NEOLITHIC MIGRATION FROM NORTH AFRICA.[/b] to Iberia.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish The Sangoan began I believe in Southern Africa and expanded into North Africa. I believe that the bearers of this culture were the Khoisan people. .
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there.
I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
I'm sorry, that you've missed it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.
The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
I didn't miss anything Stop being repettiious, you are unable to name any specific haplogroups which might represent a Vandal migration to North Africa because you are quoting a pay per view Frigi/Ennafaa article which you don't have full access to.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
I'm not surprised to see those undercover racists on this forum still go on and on about their proxy eurasian populations in Africa. That is populations that are admixed with Eurasian to a significant degree or populations representing the back migration of Eurasians into Africa. They are only fooling themselves.
Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).
AEians were for the most part indigenous black Africans, not people from Eurasia. The same way we could say Ancient Greeks were mostly Europeans not people from Africa. If it weren't from the racism of past egyptologists, we wouldn't even need to discuss this, as AE was an African nation and the burden of proof to show they were not indigenous black African is on their side. Nobody questions whether Ancient Greeks were Europeans or not. British and American people for example, as well as other Europeans, consider Ancient Greece part of their history.
From our point of view, we can clearly show a direct line of descendance from the common "recent" origin of African people in Eastern Africa, to the Wavy-line pottery culture (also called Saharan-Sudanese neolithic/culture) to the Tasian, Badarian and Naqada culture (all from the south, from Africa). For example, most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia. In a similar fashion, all African language families are said to have originated somewhere in Eastern Africa (at a time period postdating the OOA migrations of non-African).
The concept of the dynastic race coming from Eurasia to establish the AEian civilisation in Africa is dead.
It's also important to take into account that Ancient Egypt is just one of the many African civilisations in Africa. I hope people take the time to study and read about other African civilizations like the Yoruba ones, Akan, Zulu, Kongo, etc.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).
most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.
paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).
most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.
paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E
Yes, but not maternally and not autosomally as they cluster with Eurasian populations. Albert Einstein also carry the E haplogroup, it doens't make him a black African. We must always check both maternal and paternal line of descent as well as autosomally as uniparental haplogroups are only one line of descent.
I mentioned above that most African populations mostly carry the E-P2 haplogroups (y-dna), along with the A and B haplogroups, but they also carry MtDNA L haplogroups as well as clustering autosomally with other black African populations for example in term of genetic distances.
That's why the undercover racists on this forum like to use those north african populations admixed with Eurasian as their proxy eurasian population. Same with recently admixed Eastern Africans. But as I said, Ancient Egyptians were mostly indigenous black African. At least, that's what the current research tend to show. The burden of proof to prove otherwise should be on the racist camp.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Amun-Ra do you consider Barack Obama an African? to what extent?
In America he's considered to be black
or is he more like a berber?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Amun-Ra do you consider Barack Obama an African? to what extent?
In America he's considered to be black
or is he more like a berber?
Obama is obviously 50% African 50% European, but this situation in a real practical sense is completely different that the Berbers situation, or the situation of Albert Einstein or Balkans (who carry the E hg up to around 20%) because of the timeframe and it's application on the population level (not on the individual level).
Those people, like Albert Einstein and his ancestors grew up within a population which was mostly non-African for a long time. So beside their one line of descent along the paternal Y-DNA line, all, or almost all the other lines of descents are non-African. You can carry the E haplogroup and be 99.9% non-African (as I have shown in another thread). Obama is direct descendant of an African father and European mother, so he's 50% African. In the case of Balkans and Einstein it just happens that one line of descent which happens to be the E haplogroup one, had a lot of male descendants. In term of maternal and autosomal, they are mostly part of their respective populations. Almost all the other line of descent are part of their respective people (Jewish for Einstein, Europeans for the Balkans, European-West Asian for the Berbers). For the Balkans we can see this may be possible by the fact that they don't carry any African maternal haplogroup to significant level only the y-DNA E, so the E carriers who migrated to the Balkans were probably already part of a non-African population when they migrated to the Balkans or they would have brought African mtDNA L haplogroups with them who would still be found in the Balkans to a high degree.
At the extreme case, it's possible, that only one, or very few, E carriers made his way to the Balkans but then he and his descendants had a lot of male descendants to the point of forming 20% of the male population on the Y-DNA paternal line. Obviously intermarrying with local women of European descent, while the female descendant of E carriers also intermarry with local European/Balkans people, thus autosomally they would cluster in a big way with other europeans populations. They may be 99% Europeans beside carrying the E haplogroup.
Imagine if the descendants of Obama, his children and his children's children only intermarry with European people (as if they were in the Levant or the Balkans). Let's say Obama married an European woman instead of an African woman.
1st generation - Obama himself 50% African possibly E carrier. Let's suppose he is. 2nd generation - The male children of Obama with a white woman 25% African 3rd generation - 12.5% African 4- 6.25% 5- 3.125% but the males would still be E carriers (if Obama was)
So within only 5 generations, the E carriers descendant of a single male, Obama, are only 3.125% African despite carrying the E haplogroup. Thus the importance of analysing all lines of descents and the general context. Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there.
I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
I'm sorry, that you've missed it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.
The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
I didn't miss anything Stop being repettiious, you are unable to name any specific haplogroups which might represent a Vandal migration to North Africa because you are quoting a pay per view Frigi/Ennafaa article which you don't have full access to.
Airhead,
Do you understand English?
quote: Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.
Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).
most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.
paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E
Indeed berbers are indigenous to Africa, but have admixture. Varying from place to place and tribe to tribe.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Trollkillah
I also keep trying to tell people that Berbers are not one monolithic group. Each Berber tribe has different origins. But Berbers origins as a whole stems from East Africa. They are only homogeneous in that.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Trollkillah
I also keep trying to tell people that Berbers are not one monolithic group. Each Berber tribe has different origins. But Berbers origins as a whole stems from East Africa. They are only homogeneous in that.
Corrrect.
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).
most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.
paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E
Yes, but not maternally and not autosomally as they cluster with Eurasian populations. Albert Einstein also carry the E haplogroup, it doens't make him a black African. We must always check both maternal and paternal line of descent as well as autosomally as uniparental haplogroups are only one line of descent.
I mentioned above that most African populations mostly carry the E-P2 haplogroups (y-dna), along with the A and B haplogroups, but they also carry MtDNA L haplogroups as well as clustering autosomally with other black African populations for example in term of genetic distances.
That's why the undercover racists on this forum like to use those north african populations admixed with Eurasian as their proxy eurasian population. Same with recently admixed Eastern Africans. But as I said, Ancient Egyptians were mostly indigenous black African. At least, that's what the current research tend to show. The burden of proof to prove otherwise should be on the racist camp.
What's with the "black african" term? You're either African or you're not. We all know who's indigenous to Africa and who isn't. Africans doesn't need to be hyphenated. Period.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.
But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.
IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.
But anyways yeah I like this thread.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.
But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.
IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.
But anyways yeah I like this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Above are the African vs non-African SNP frequencies of each selected African nation and grouped views of them as
* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core Maghreb subset.
Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on North African populations. It attempts to discern Neanderthal genome influx. [/QB]
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Bump
quote:Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]
--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.
But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.
IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.
But anyways yeah I like this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Above are the African vs non-African SNP frequencies of each selected African nation and grouped views of them as
* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core Maghreb subset.
Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on North African populations. It attempts to discern Neanderthal genome influx.
[/QB]
Interesting. But what exactly are these results based on? Just asking
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.
But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.
IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.
But anyways yeah I like this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Above are the African vs non-African SNP frequencies of each selected African nation and grouped views of them as
* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core Maghreb subset.
Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on North African populations. It attempts to discern Neanderthal genome influx.
Interesting. But what exactly are these results based on? Just asking [/QB]
The above chart is one of sveral that Tukuler (al Takruri) made that compiles the DNA data from particular recent articles. These analysis are showing that on average North African popualtions of today are split to between around half and half between African and Eurasian, some a little more African on others a little more Eurasian
It's not surpising
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Bump
quote:Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]
--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.
No, North African ancestry is not simple at all. The largest foreign influence on the region's gentics is from the Levant and Arabia, haplogroup H and J The Vandals are only one of many foreign occupations of North Africa and their numbers are disputed Phoenicians (from Lebanon) Greeks Romans Vandals Arabs Turks
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The above chart is one of sveral that Tukuler (al Takruri) made that compiles the DNA data from particular recent articles. These analysis are showing that on average North African popualtions of today are split to between around half and half between African and Eurasian, some a little more African on others a little more Eurasian
It's not surpising [/QB]
I can agree to this. I always held the opinion that modern day North Africans are the result of African men and Eurasian/European women.
I believe Moroccans to have the most African admixture(if we exclude Northern Sudanese people) than other North Africans who are mostly Eurasian admixed especially Algerians and Egyptians.
Again this is just my opinion. Also what recent articles were they? I'm interested. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The above chart is one of sveral that Tukuler (al Takruri) made that compiles the DNA data from particular recent articles. These analysis are showing that on average North African popualtions of today are split to between around half and half between African and Eurasian, some a little more African on others a little more Eurasian
It's not surpising
I can agree to this. I always held the opinion that modern day North Africans are the result of African men and Eurasian/European women.
I believe Moroccans to have the most African admixture(if we exclude Northern Sudanese people) than other North Africans who are mostly Eurasian admixed especially Algerians and Egyptians.
Again this is just my opinion. Also what recent articles were they? I'm interested. [/QB]
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [*]A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples * Egypt is not primarily African [/list] . .
[/QUOTE]
^^^ the white charts are Tukular made compilations of the data and used his own terminology in osme cases the articles are not always topical to berbers The Sanchez Quinto was on neanderthal admixture -but it still has relevant background data not pertaining to neanderthals, some stuff in suppliments
for source articles on each go to google scholar and type in name and date, + "africa" ex. Bekada 2013
Note, the Sanchez Quinto says 94% African. The other figures are good but not that one. Comapritively the other articles say 33-42. So you have to look at the source article to find out about the sampling
On specific berber groups the Kabyle of Algeria, the largest group of berbers is probably most admixed with Eurasians
Arabs who came up with the Berber name. Islam came to the Berbers in the ninth and tenth centuries. Prior to then, most Berbers across Africa were Christian or Jewish. Two great Islamic Berber dynasties, Almoravids and Almohads, ruled large parts of Spain and northwest Africa.
Today, most of the twenty-seven million Moroccans are either Berbers, Arabs, or Moors (people of Berber/Arab decent). Their ancestors became the Almoravids and Almohads that built the mighty Moorish empire that ruled Spain, Portugal and Northern African.
Most of today’s Berbers live in the mountains of Morocco while the Arabs and Moors live in the cities, though it is very common these days to see Berbers running, owning and operating small shops and other commerce endeavors.
Different tribes of Berbers inhabit different regions in Morocco. Drawa Berbers are found in the Draa Valley. The Dades live in the North East, The Mesgita, Seddrat and Zeri tribes are along the rives of the North West. Moroccan Rif region is home to the Ghomara.
Origin of modern day Berbers speakers--just facts, no dogma inspired fiction
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thread
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Bump
quote:Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]
--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.
No, North African ancestry is not simple at all. The largest foreign influence on the region's gentics is from the Levant and Arabia, haplogroup H and J The Vandals are only one of many foreign occupations of North Africa and their numbers are disputed Phoenicians (from Lebanon) Greeks Romans Vandals Arabs Turks
Of course it's not that simple, it's complex as we know it. But crumb by crumb we 'regetting there. This was just a crumb.
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: The Tamasheq language
Tamasheq (or Tamajeq, or Tamaheq, stemming from the word Tamazight) is the language of the Tuareg, a nomadic people that has been settled in the desert areas of North Africa for millennia, over a vast territory reaching from Mali to Libya, from Burkina Faso to Algeria, and including Niger. There are around one million speakers of Tamasheq.
As are Kabyle, Shawia, or Rifian, Tamasheq is actually a variant of Berber (or Tamazight), a group of languages found in the entire part of North Africa (Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Niger, Mauritania, Mali, and Burkina Faso), not to mention a large diaspora in Europe and America. In total, estimations account for over 45 million speakers of Berber languages.
One distinctive feature of the Berber language is its writing. An alphabet known as Tifinagh appeared during the first millennium B.C., and despite its disappearing in most of the North where it was replaced by Roman and Arabic alphabets, the Tuareg have been using it ever since. In the second half of the 20th century, a modern version, first created by the Berber Academy, and then modified by linguists to reach a standard form that would be suitable to all types of idioms, is now widely used in the North, and was even formalized in Morocco in 2001. This Alphabet, known as Neo-Tifinagh, while raising enthusiasm in the North, still encounters reluctance among the Tuareg people.
quote:The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
--Nikita E1, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
quote: The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert approximately 3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them are examined. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and subsequent gene flow. This issue is addressed by means of analyses of non-metric cranial and mandibular traits.
Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This may relate to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the relative biological proximity of populations which are located along the Nile or the Mediterranean coast, such as the Kerma and Gizeh, the Algerians and Alexandrians, the Soleb and Alexandrians. Finally, females overall exhibit smaller pairwise biodistances compared to males, possibly due to the greater gene flow in the female population as a result of their greater mobility because of various marital networks.
To conclude, the Sahara Desert restricted population contacts in the Late Holocene, once it had turned hyper-arid. The trade networks must have involved only a specialized sub-set of merchants, while females dispersed more widely, possibly due to patrilocal marital networks.
--Efthymia Nikita1, Marta Mirazón Lahr1 and David Mattingly2
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Non-metric Cranial Traits and Biological Affinities of North African Late Holocene Populations
1 Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, University of Cambridge 2 School of Archaeology and Ancient History, University of Leicester
13th Annual Conference of the British Association for Biological Anthropology and Osteoarchaeology
Organiser Dr. Kathleen McSweeney University of Edinburgh School of History, Classics, and Archaeology Friday 2nd – Sunday 4th September 2011 Programme and Abstracts
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
Troll Patrol is your inbox clear? Because I want to send you something. Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
Let me give some examples because I feel this is a good thread. Because I feel Northwest Africans have this interesting exotic look to them that may be their average phenotype. Its "mulatto" like the OP described but it seems to be a cross between Horner/Near Eastern but STILL unique to Northwest Africa. Can't explain but my ex had that look to.
What do you guys classify her as???^^^
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
She's Algerian. Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.
Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
my deep anthropological insight:
first one is hot but second one is smoking
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
^lol!!
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: my deep anthropological insight:
first one is hot but second one is smoking
Well, that is how Johann Friendrich Blumenbach did it when he invented the caucasoid theory.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.
Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Yes, but genetically there are similarities. So that’s not surprising.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by capra: my deep anthropological insight:
first one is hot but second one is smoking
Well, that is how Johann Friendrich Blumenbach did it when he invented the caucasoid theory.
That's true, Ish. This calls for further on the ground research. We could apply for a grant, call it something like "Evaluating early 19th century racial typological assignment based on perceptions of beauty: a replicational study".
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.
Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Yes, but genetically there are similarities. So that’s not surprising.
I'm guessing the Moroccan you said is of typical Sharawi descent. However on her IG she never claimed to be Sharawi but just plain Moroccan but who knows?
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
She's Algerian. What do you guys consider her "phenotype."
She looks like a typical biracial here in America.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
She's Moroccan.
She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
She's Algerian
Not exactly sure what to classify her as. What do you guys classify her phenotype as?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: She's Moroccan.
She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.
Typical Moroccan girl, on average.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.
Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Yes, but genetically there are similarities. So that’s not surprising.
I'm guessing the Moroccan you said is of typical Sharawi descent. However on her IG she never claimed to be Sharawi but just plain Moroccan but who knows?
Sharawi is Southern Morocco, West Sahara.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
I have seen a whole fuss over Nessa Diab from (Hot79), it's almost crazy. She's Egyptian btw (Mom allegedly American-Creole).
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
Nessa is good looking. But not everyone considers Sahrawi apart of Morocco. Anyways you as a person who has lineages in this area. Did the pics of the females I posted come off as accurate for that regions phenotype? Or no?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: She's Moroccan.
She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.
Ps, in fact during my late teen years I knew quit a few Moroccan girls who loved to travel to the Caribbean, i.e Dominican. They mingled in easy and large parts of Morocco is Spanish speaking. And a lot of Moroccan guys travel the Brazil.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: Nessa is good looking. But not everyone considers Sahrawi apart of Morocco. Anyways you as a person who has lineages in this area. Did the pics of the females I posted come off as accurate for that regions phenotype? Or no?
In terms of phenotype, yes. But you wil also find Arab descent people there.
Sahrawi is cut off from Morocco, and seeks independency.
Dang, did not know North Africans traveled Latin America like that.
Also is it true that Berbers of Sahrawi have significant SSA admixture or is that a Eurocentric myth to explain away their more "African leaning" features?
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: She's Moroccan.
She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.
Probably not unique, although more "European" looking women are usually featured in the media.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
^^I think posted her before. She is well known on social media.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: @Ish Geber
Dang, did not know North Africans traveled Latin America like that.
Also is it true that Berbers of Sahrawi have significant SSA admixture or is that a Eurocentric myth to explain away their more "African leaning" features?
Yes, there is a study on that. I have posted it, but forgot about the authors. If I'll find it I'll posted. For what I know it was a reference to paper by DNA-tribes.
And later another paper confirmed it also. I posted it 2016-2017 in a thread about Hg V88, pertaining Berbers from Central-Africa, and Northwest vs Northeast Berbers. However, they had one of the highest scores in M81, with "sub Saharan" L-lineage.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
^^Do you remember what were those "L-lineages" because if it were L3 then it cant be explained away via "slavery."
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: ^^Do you remember what were those "L-lineages" because if it were L3 then it cant be explained away via "slavery."
No it was not slavery. I think it was L2 etc.
Posted by Autshumato (Member # 22722) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
The hair texture of the average Moroccan.
According to lioness this is due to recent slaves / slavery from the "sub-Sahara"
Love this one, the one on the right looks like my sister. My mother calls her "bossie-kop" which might translate into 'bushy head or busy hair'.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what does the average North American look like?
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
@Ish Geber thoughts?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
What do you guys make of the Dutch fashion model Imaan Hammam who is half Moroccan and half Egyptian??
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I've been to her Instagram page and if I recall right her mother or grandmother has a negroid phenotype so her look isn't unsual.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
@DJ
What I like about her is that no one can dismiss her features as "recent SSA" because BOTH her ancestries are North African.
She looks like a pseudo-mulatto.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ If by "recent SSA" you mean 'black' then I disagree because such phenotype is indigenous to North Africa as well. This is why I am weary of the whole SSA vs. NA with the former implying black while the latter 'non-black'. As for "pseudo-Mulatto", her complexion is is actually darker than typical "mulatto" types which is usually what is held up as the standard form of beauty in North Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This topic is not " hot looking females of North Africa"
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
@dj misread your comment,my response was based of that. The stereotype of a mulatto look is somewhere in between both parents isn't always true, though the lighting is a bit of here is imaam hamman with friends Cindy bruna,half Italian and African,Riley Montana who is a black American.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What do you guys make of the Dutch fashion model Imaan Hammam who is half Moroccan and half Egyptian??
She’s has the nick name Nefertiti. And rightfully so.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what does the average Algerian man look like?
The fellas on the top row
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what does the average North American look like?
Do you mean from before or after the annihilation of the indigenous people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what does the average Algerian man look like?
Your favorite source:
quote:“Turkish corsair and admiral Hayreddin Barbarossa in 1516, captured the city of Algiers from the Holy Roman Empire. Although initially Barbaros and his brothers were independent, after his elder brother's death, Barbaros appealed to Selim for protection.[3] In 1532, during the reign of Suleiman I (the Magnificent), Barbaros was appointed as the grand admiral of the Ottoman Navy and Algeria became an Ottoman possession. Eventually the Ottomans began controlling the hinterland also. In 1552, Salih Reis an Ottoman admiral, marched over the Sahara and captured Touggourt.“
quote: The Turks in Algeria, also commonly referred to as Algerian Turks,[3][4][5][6][7] Algerian-Turkish[8][9] Algero-Turkish[10] and Turkish-Algerians[11] (Arabic: أتراك الجزائر; French: Turcs d'Algérie; Turkish: Cezayir Türkleri[12]) are ethnic Turkish descendants who, alongside the Arabs and Berbers, constitute a strong admixture to Algeria's population.[13][14][15][16] During Ottoman rule, Turkish settlers began to migrate to the region predominately from Anatolia[17][18] and many intermarried with the native population; the male offspring of these marriages were referred to as Kouloughlis (Turkish: kuloğlu) due to their mixed Turkish and central Maghrebi blood.[19][20] Consequently, the terms "Turks" and "Kouloughlis" have traditionally been used to distinguish between those of full and partial Turkish ancestry.[21]
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Two systems of trade in the Slavic slaves in the 10th century.
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<== suppressed dissension
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