a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
It is aasumed by who other than you that the Fula mixed with white slaves or owned white slaves?
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: A short but powerful explanation.
Thanks.
So, tell me.
What exactly did I mean by:
I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
And by:
A short but powerful explanation.
Thanks.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
So Lioness, was the knowledge of Greeks on the African continent limited or not?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So Lioness, was the knowledge of Greeks on the African continent limited or not?
Djehuti's not Greek, what do the Greeks have to do with it?
Did the Greeks encountered Africans in North Africa?
Yes or no?
And if so (meaning yes), was their knowledge on the African continent limited or not?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
By reading his reply, it's clear Djehuti is an undercover racist.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!
You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.
I know perfectly well what the author Donald Redford said, but apparently YOU don't! Of course some of the features like divine kingship and headrests are general features found all throughout Africa including West Africa but also East Africa as well!! In fact, the exact forms of headrests and divine-kingship resemble East Africans much more than West Africa. The specific cultural traits are northeast African and Redford specifically states they are of *Sudanese* Khartoum Mesolithic derived assemblage like wavy dotted pottery and harpoons and later Tasian and Badarian cultures.
Nowhere did he list specific West African cultures, not that there are no connections to West Africa since the Egyptians do have some ancestry from the Central Sahara as do some West Africans! I asked you name cultural traits the Egyptians possessed that were specific to West Africans, but you have only listed general traits that East Africans have as well and are actually closer to East Africans! I'm still waiting for you to give an accurate answer. And again I bet you that I can provide more specific West African traits in Egyptian culture that are NOT found in East Africans than YOU which would then refute your LIE that I sever any ties between Egypt and West Africa!!
quote:We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.
LOL And again, nowhere do I deny West Africa's connection to Egypt via the Central Sahara as I just explained above!! The fact of the matter though is that Egypt is in northeast Africa and has far greater affinities with other northeast African cultures! Also when have I ever espoused or supported the long DEBUNKED "dynastic race" theory?!! Show me where I have ever tried to connect Egypt with Eurasian populations??! Note that the Horn is in AFRICA and not Eurasia! LOL
Please find evidence of my guilt in the following:
1- finding a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc) 2- Declaring them African, black or whatever 3- Then claiming Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people.
I'm still waiting Amanutcase-theUltimate for either evidence of your accusations or an APOLOGY. Because I don't take kindly to liars!!
^^^ This undercover racist is probably the most funny of them. You realize people can read or remember previous posts in the thread right? So why lying again?
But again, Djehuti doesn't have anything to say since I caught him lying about the Oxford Encyclopedia quote which indeed mentions: ""Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."". Which indeed can be seen all over Africa including West Africa. I wouldn't exclude other African populations, like East Africans, since I believe in shared conections between ALL African populations. You're the one, as well as other undercover racists, trying to divide African people into different races, different part. There's both communality and differences between African people, but they share a common origin, many cultural attributes and history with each others.
quote:I asked you name cultural traits the Egyptians possessed that were specific to West Africans,
You know people remember or can read past post right? For one, you didn't ask me anything, I was responding to the lioness. So the big question is why lie about that? Why lie that you ask me something specific about West Africa? The answer is simple, you couldn't refute my position so you have to invent a question I didn't even answer.
I believe African populations including Ancient Egyptians shared the same origin, many historical, archaeological, linguistic, cultural attributes. Not something specific to each regions. My point being Ancient Egyptians are Africans like Yoruba, Somali, Dinka, Dogon, Wolof, Zulu, Kongo, etc. You won't caught me doing some East vs West things. I leave that to the undercover racists.
quote: but you have only listed general traits that East Africans have as well and are actually closer to East Africans!
Yes, I listed general traits that East African have too. Isn't that my point? That all African populations including East and West Africans, and AEians of course, share things (origin, etc) between each others? There's both similarities and differences between indigenous African populations and cultures. Similarities comes from their common origin, migration, inter-relationship and admixture between one another. Their differences due to regionalisation. There's no point in saying Ancient Egyptian are African otherwise. Nobody never denied they were in Africa, but the racist in the past tried to tell us they were a dynastic race coming from Western Asia or even Europe, not indigenous black Africans.
quote:Yes, I've cited Ehret many times before on this, but didn't YOU yourself say the Horn is inhabited by Eurasian populations?!
Another lie. I never said the Horn is inhabited by Eurasian populations.
Many horn populations, as a borderline states, are now admixed with Eurasian populations. Which is normal. They are still mostly African but they got a substantial amount of Eurasian admixtures.
What I said, is that undercover racists like to use Horners, as proxy eurasian population since they got admixture with Eurasian population in recent time. Same with modern Egyptians.
Genetically, you can see it, for example, by the presence of F-descendants y-DNA haplogroups (like J) in those populations. What is important to understand is that modern Egypt, the Horn, Africa in general and many places in the world (eg Mesopotamia) have a completely different ethnic composition now than 5000 years ago!!! For example, Horners weren't as admixed in Ancient time as they are now. While most of them are still mostly African, and thus are related to Ancient Egyptians, undercover racists loves them because of their Eurasian admixture and connection. You do seem to like them too, from what I see. At one point, talking ills of horn supremacist and then becoming one of them in the same post!
You said, "actually closer to East Africans". So you mean modern East Africans right?
QED
Now, I just hope people keeps their eyes open for those undercover racists. They are fake black Africans (or fake Asian in the case of Djehuti). They are liars.
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Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
When reading the ancient literature use of the term "Scythian" may not always be associated with "white". The term Scythian was also applied to the Kushites in Eurasia.
To the Greco-Romans Ethiopia and Scythia were not considered opposites of each other.
Homer was Xanthos: a Black Man. The leading characters in his books were Negro/Black men and women.
Aeschylus describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" or dark skinned and that he originally lived in Africa.
Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
There are many light skinned Africans who have never mixed with Europeans. Apollo is chrysaeros 'bearing a golden sword'
Artemis is eustephanos which has no relation to fair
Neptune is kyanochaites 'bluish or Blackish like dark deep waves of the ocean
Achilles is xanthos 'brown'
As a result, Homer is talking about different black or negro ethnicities, who were either light brown (xanthos) or dark brown (ethiop). Xanthos and Ethiop represent the idea of the two Kushites living in the south Ethiopia, and Asia, Scythia.
The Greco-Romans, as noted in the writings of Rawlinson, recognized Scythia as Asian Kush, and the ‘Scythians' were recognized as Kushites.
Chambers wrote:
“Ephorus ,too (405B.C.)seems to have had a great impression of the power of the Ethiopians, since he names in the east, the Indians—in the south the Ethiopians—in the west, the Celts—in the north, the Scythians, as the most mighty and numrous people of the known earth. Already in Strabo’s time, however, their ancient power had gone for an indefinite period, and the Negro states found themselves, after Meroe had ceased to be a religious capital …”
The Ephorus map, the Classical authors and writers familiar with the Classics like Rawlinson saw the people living in Scythia and Ethiopia (lands below Egypt) as nations founded by Kushites. This makes the premise of article under review as an example of extremes: Blacks in the South and Whites in the north unfounded. To the ancients this was just a fight between two Kushite (black) nations. The present author has been blinded by modern populations living in Europe today, as the representatives of the former xanthos (brown) population, instead of the Indo-european population which presently live in the modern countries the Greeks called: “Scythia” who consider themselves to be 'white'..
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: The Tjehenu have been associated, possibly with Fulas, as the Egyptian depictions seem to have a similar style of dress and hair styles, that can still be found among the Fulas to this day. What is interesting to note is, a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
Great discussion of the term Libya. Some "white" slaves may have been among the Fula, but the widespread presence of haplogroup R among Africans indicate an African origin of this hapolgroup.
I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 in Europe is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010). Y-Chromosome R1b1b2 has high frequencies in England, France, Italy and Germany (Balaresque et al, 2010). Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 .
An interesting finding of Henn et al was the discovery of the Eurasian clade R1b1b1a1a among the Khomani San of South Africa.
Henn et al was surprised by this revelation of R-M269 among this Khoisan population. As a result, he interviewed the carries of R1b1b2a1a, and learned that no members of their families had relations with Europeans. The presence of R lineages among HG populations is not new. Wood et al reported Khoisan carriers of R-M269. Bernielle-Lee et al, in their study of the Baka and Bakola pygmies foud the the R1b1* haplogroup . These researchers made it clear that the Baka samples clustered closely to Khoisan samples.
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people) range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18, V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. Berniell-Lee et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009). The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).
The early coalescent estimate of M269*+L23 (x M412) chromosome between 8.5-12 kya (1) , suggest an African genesis for M269, rather than Southwest Asia, since we see not only Sub-Saharan populations entering the area around this time they also bring with them Sub-Saharan fauna (4) ; and African groups who carry R1b are not of Middle eastern Origin (5).
Many of the African populations that carry R1* M173 are associated with the the Kushite people of Nubia (6) . As a result we find many Eurasian ethnonyms of Anatolia and Mesopotamia that indicate a Kushite presence including the Ksaka tribe (7) ; and Kings of Kish/Kush (6) .
In summary the most common R haplogroup in Africa is V88. Given the interaction between HG groups and agropastoral groups they live in close proximity too, we would assume that African HG would carry the V88 lineage. Yet, as pointed out above the HG populations carry R-M269 instead of V88 (1-3). The implications of R-M269 among HG populations, and Henn et al’s of shared African HG genome suggest that R-M269 may represent a HG genome.
References
1. Myres N, Rootsi S, Lin A, et al. 2010. A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe. Eur Jour of Hum Genet advance online publication 25 August 2010; doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146.
2.Haak W, Balanovsky O, Sanchez JJ, Koshel S, Zaporozhchenko V, et al. 2010 Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities. PLoS Biol 8(11): e1000536. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536
3.Caramelli,D.,Lalueza-Fox,C., Vernesi,C., Lari,M.,Casoli,A., Mallegni,B.C., Dupanloup, I., Bertranpetit,J., Barbujani,G., Bertorelle,G. (2003). Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000 year-old anatomically modern Europeans. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A., 100 (11):6593-6597.
4.Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads:Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, Am Anth,102(1) .
9. Dieulafoy, M.A.2010.. L' Acropole de Suse d'après les fouilles exécutées en 1884, 1885, 1886, sous les auspices du Musée du Louvre. Retrieved 04/04/10 from :http://www.archive.org/stream/lacropoledesused01dieu#page/2/mode/2up
10. Tomczyk,J., Jedrychowska-Danska, K., Ploszaj,T & Witas H.W. (2010). Anthropological analysis of the osteological material from an ancient tomb (Early Bronze Age) from the middle Euphrates valley, Terqa (Syria) , International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, Retrieved 04/04/10 from (www.interscience.wiley.com)DOI:10.1002/oa.1150.
11. Ricaut,F.X. and Waelkens.2008. Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzatine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements, Hum Biol, 80(5):535-564.
posted
^^^^ Low-intensity contact between Egyptians and Tjemehu/Tjehenu typifies Egypto-Libyan relations from the beginning of the dynastic period to the late 18th Dynasty. So we're talking about low-intensity contact.
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posted
the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.
It is aasumed by who other than you that the Fula mixed with white slaves or owned white slaves?
Shomerka Keita makes mention of it in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4sbLY6rxxg at one point. He was surprised that there is European DNA there because he said the Fulas in question didn't seem to have empire from which to absorb these groups. But that is assuming they didn't. They may have long ago. Who knows.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
You're daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
Also, if you think discussing the meaning of words, to ensure people are using the words properly is a diversion, I think it shows how low you mental capacity is. If someone is using words incorrectly, it totally obscures and obfuscates the discussion. Now I think we are all on the same page, as we now clearly understand the meanings of these words. Most people think Libya is North Africa, and it is not. It does not denote some mythical white group of people living in North Africa as, back then outside of Greek settlements, whites were not present in North Africa, them be the facts. Libya = all of Africa. Doesn't denote white berbers or white peoples. It is just the name of a continent full of black peoples.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
.
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
When reading the ancient literature use of the term "Scythian" may not always be associated with "white". The term Scythian was also applied to the Kushites in Eurasia.
To the Greco-Romans Ethiopia and Scythia were not considered opposites of each other.
Homer was Xanthos: a Black Man. The leading characters in his books were Negro/Black men and women.
Aeschylus describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" or dark skinned and that he originally lived in Africa.
Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
There are many light skinned Africans who have never mixed with Europeans. Apollo is chrysaeros 'bearing a golden sword'
Artemis is eustephanos which has no relation to fair
Neptune is kyanochaites 'bluish or Blackish like dark deep waves of the ocean
Achilles is xanthos 'brown'
As a result, Homer is talking about different black or negro ethnicities, who were either light brown (xanthos) or dark brown (ethiop). Xanthos and Ethiop represent the idea of the two Kushites living in the south Ethiopia, and Asia, Scythia.
The Greco-Romans, as noted in the writings of Rawlinson, recognized Scythia as Asian Kush, and the ‘Scythians' were recognized as Kushites.
Chambers wrote:
“Ephorus ,too (405B.C.)seems to have had a great impression of the power of the Ethiopians, since he names in the east, the Indians—in the south the Ethiopians—in the west, the Celts—in the north, the Scythians, as the most mighty and numrous people of the known earth. Already in Strabo’s time, however, their ancient power had gone for an indefinite period, and the Negro states found themselves, after Meroe had ceased to be a religious capital …”
The Ephorus map, the Classical authors and writers familiar with the Classics like Rawlinson saw the people living in Scythia and Ethiopia (lands below Egypt) as nations founded by Kushites. This makes the premise of article under review as an example of extremes: Blacks in the South and Whites in the north unfounded. To the ancients this was just a fight between two Kushite (black) nations. The present author has been blinded by modern populations living in Europe today, as the representatives of the former xanthos (brown) population, instead of the Indo-european population which presently live in the modern countries the Greeks called: “Scythia” who consider themselves to be 'white'..
.
I will defiantly do more research on this subject. I was always under the assumption that Scythian denoted white persons.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
Your daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
the quote is Djehuti's not mine
when he said Libyans he meant people living in the oases' of the Western Desert of Egypt beacause I have read his other remarks pertaining to this issue. He is not talking about Greek definitions. he is talking about the territory to the West of Egypt and people depicted on the narmer palette
The etymology of the word "Libya" or "Africa" or "Greek" is a separate topic for a different thread.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
Your daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
the quote is Djehuti's not mine
when he said Libyans he meant people living in the oases' of the Western Desert of Egypt beacause I have read his other remarks pertaining to this issue. He is not talking about Greek definitions. he is talking about the territory to the West of Egypt and people depicted on the narmer palette
The etymology of the word "Libya" or "Africa" or "Greek" is a separate topic for a different thread.
What your saying is illogical. People can not go around making up meanings of words. You do that, and no one will have any clue what you are talking about. Words have clearly defined meanings, that is what enables us to communicate with each other. Other wise we are speaking different languages. Now, the term Libyan during the time of the ancient Egyptians, during the 5th century BCE would have fallen under the Greek term, which would have been all of Africa. Again, we must use words properly. If we are talking about the people on the Narmer palette, then to use the word "Libyans" would be inappropriate, as that term would not have existed at that time. It is like using the term Nubian. That term is a relatively recent term with no truly historical accuracy. I would even argue the term Nubian is used to obfuscate the facts of what was going on in the Nile Valley. The same way this term Libyan is used to also obfuscate facts.
My argument is, let us use words appropriately so that we are all speaking of the same thing.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the only reason I put that up is to demonstrate that the word Libyan is used by Egyptologists and any book on typezeiss' shelf
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.
^^ this remark is referring to the much unifictaion period around 3150 BC, "Libyans" here referring to inhabitants of the Western Desert
Etymology of the words Libya, Egypt and Africa is a diversion and separate topics.
You're daft, so let me reiterate. You were using the term Libyan as if it describes ONE group of people. That doesn't work because the term Libyan is 1. GREEK in origin and it denotes ALL of Africa, not just one region and it does not denote a ethnic group. The quote you gave mentions Libya (Africans), so its talking about a group(s) of people on the continent of Africa, then it gets very specific and names the groups in question. Can your thick skull decipher what I am saying? I don't think I am speaking in riddles, maybe I am? I don't know.
Also, if you think discussing the meaning of words, to ensure people are using the words properly is a diversion, I think it shows how low you mental capacity is. If someone is using words incorrectly, it totally obscures and obfuscates the discussion. Now I think we are all on the same page, as we now clearly understand the meanings of these words. Most people think Libya is North Africa, and it is not. It does not denote some mythical white group of people living in North Africa as, back then outside of Greek settlements, whites were not present in North Africa, them be the facts. Libya = all of Africa. Doesn't denote white berbers or white peoples. It is just the name of a continent full of black peoples.
quote:
Leptis Magna is a unique artistic realization in the domain of urban planning. It played a major role, along with Cyrene, in the movement back to antiquity and in the elaboration of the neoclassical aesthetic
The Phoenician port of Lpgy was founded at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC and first populated by the Garamantes. The city, which was part of the domain of Carthage, passed under the ephemeral control of Massinissa, King of Numidia. The Romans, who had quartered a garrison there during the war against Jugurtha, integrated it, in 46 BC, into the province of Africa while at the same time allowing it a certain measure of autonomy.
Although Leptis (the latinization of its Phoenician name) was comparable to the other Phoenician trading centres of the Syrtian coast, like Sabratha, after Septimius Severus became emperor in 193, its fortunes improved remarkably. Thanks to him, the renewed Leptis was one of the most beautiful cities of the Roman world. It is still one of the best examples of Severan urban planning.
Thereafter, Leptis felt prey to the same vicissitudes of fortune as the majority of the coastal cities of Africa. Pillaged from the 4th century and reconquered by the Byzantines who transformed it into a stronghold, it definitively succumbed to the second wave of Arab invasion, that of the Hilians in the 11th century. Buried under drifting sands, the city has only been disengaged, piece by piece, over the course of a long archaeological exploration.
The city, which was constructed during the reign of Augustus and Tiberius but which was entirely remodelled along very ambitious lines under the Severan emperors, incorporates major monumental elements of that period. The forum, basilica and Severan arch rank among the foremost examples of a new Roman art, strongly influenced by African and Eastern traditions.
The sculptures of the Severan basilica, which remain in situ, and that of the Severan arch, in the museum at Tripoli, are innovative in their linear definition of forms, the crispness of their contours and the angular delineation of their volumes: a comprehensive aesthetic, conceived as a function of the blinding African sun.
The ancient port, with its artificial basin of some 102,000 m2, still exists with its quays, jetties, fortifications, storage areas and temples. Dug under Nero and organized under Septimius Severus, it is one of the chefs d'oeuvre of Roman technology with its barrage dam and its canal designed to regulate the course of Wadi Lebda, the dangerous torrent that empties into the Mediterranean to the west. The market, an essential element in the everyday life of a large commercial trading centre, with its votive arch, colonnades and shops, has been for the most part preserved. The building, which dates from the Augustan period, was transformed and embellished under
Septimius Severus.
Warehouses and workshops also attest to the commercial and industrial activity of a city whose large prestigious monuments, arches and gates, original forum and Severan forum, temples, baths, theatre, circus and amphitheatre, only occupy a very small part of the total area. Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC
quote: A Phoenician trading-post of the Tripolitanian coast, Sabratha funnelled the products of Africa to the Gulf of the Lesser Syrtis, thanks to the route linking it to the continent via Cydamus (now Ghadamès). It was part of the short-lived Numidian Kingdom of Massinissa, together with Leptis and Oea, before being Romanized and absorbed into the Roman province of Africa, and subsequently rebuilt in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.
Sabratha enjoyed its greatest prosperity during the 2nd and 3rd centuries. This period saw the construction of grandiose monuments, of which the most renowned is that of the theatre, probably built during the reign of the Emperor Commodus (AD 161-92), with its three orders of columns of the frons scenae.
The best conserved part is the scena, recomposed with original fragments and subdivided on three levels with overlapping marble columns. The theatre had a capacity of 5,000 seats. The pulpitum has a series of decorations in bas-relief representing divinity, historical and theatrical scenes, and a series of rectangular and semicircular niches. In the central niche stands the goddess Rome with helm and shield, dressed like an Amazon. On her flank there is another divinity that represents Sabratha.
Near the theatre stands the amphitheatre with the arena where once the gladiators faced the ferocious wild animals, fighting until death. The underground corridors that were used in order to make enter can still be seen.
Other monuments and areas of interest include the Temple of Liber Pater, Basilica of Justinian, and Mosaics of the House of Jason Magnus, Capitolium, Temple of Serapis, Temple of Hercules and Temple of Isis.
The decline of Sabratha began with the 4th century: commerce with Africa was less active, the city was wracked by religious quarrels, and much of the city was destroyed by earthquakes, particularly that of AD 365. A rebuilding programme followed but the city was now to occupy a much smaller area. The Vandals invaded Sabratha in 455 and tore down its walls. The Byzantine reconquest did not, however, mark the beginning of a real renaissance and the city was definitively abandoned after the Arab invasions of the 7th and 11th centuries.
Two museums on the site house objects found during excavations, such as funerary objects, coins, china, mosaics from the Byzantine period, statues from the Roman era and Phoenician relics.
quote: The Greeks conquered Eastern Libya when, according to tradition, emigrants from the crowded island of Thera were commanded by the oracle at Delphi to seek a new home in North Africa. In 631BC, they founded the city of Cyrene. Within 200 years, four more important Greek cities were established in the area: Barce (Al Marj), Euhesperides (later Berenice, present-day Benghazi), Teuchira (later Arsinoe, present-day Tukrah) and Apollonia (Susah), the port of Cyrene. Together with Cyrene, they were known as the Pentapolis ("Five Cities").
So, at that time, the coastal part of Libya was divided under the two colonizations: Punic in the western part (later on "Tripolitania") and Greek in the eastern part (later on "Cyrenaica").
The internal part of Libya was not colonized. It was a far and mysterious territory called Phazania (present-day Fezzan). Herodotus in his "Histories" gives a short but significative description of the bold and belligerent local tribes: the Garamanti. Their main centre was the Oasis of Garama/Germa; another was Cydamus (present-day Ghadames). Garamanti had the control of the rich commercial lines crossing the desert and connecting the coast to the internal regions of Africa.
PHOTO shows a pre-historical rock painting with a "two-wheels" Garamanti battle chariot.
quote: In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.
General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa p. 427
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Link? This sounds interesting.
I thought the Phoenicians were from the Middle East?
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Link? This sounds interesting.
I thought the Phoenicians were from the Middle East?
You do know there are black people in the middle east right? One of the groups considered to be the "true arabs" are blacks ie Hadrami people in Yemen
There is another group from Tahama region, who also claim to be "pure arabs" and they are as black as any one on the continent of Africa. So don't get confused that just because people are in the middle east, they magically turn white. Herodotus also describes Ethiopians (blacks) living in the middle east during his time.
This one is SUPER long, it is a debate with Bernal and some white professors who try to discredit him using little facts and pure emotion and obfuscation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4pzEY9ntA its 15 parts so watch it when you have time. But somewhere in there he mentions that the Phoenicians were described as black. You will see the obfuscation by the other white professors when he says that.
Blacks in Southern Arabia claim the white Arabs are the descendents of Persian invaders. If I can find a link with that info I will provide it later.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
Link? This sounds interesting.
I thought the Phoenicians were from the Middle East?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
I'm still on a quest. So that will come later.
I will go till the nitty gritty. Because this happened there. Important things.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
Have you come across anything that has talked about the physiology of the Phoenicians? I remember listening to a discussion with Marten Bernal and he claimed the Phoenicians were described as Ethiopians by Greeks.
I'm still on a quest. So that will come later.
I will go till the nitty gritty. Because this happened there. Important things.
The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
quote: The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition. It is also a period of archaeological and material transition: towns and economic system change, public structures (but not churches) decay. I have analysed how classical towns changed through centuries, how building were reused and progressively transformed.
quote: The existing linguistic evidence. There is no record left of a text in the Vandalic language long enough to contain agroup of phrases forming at least one complete sentence. The unfortunatecircumstance that no written text in Vandalic has survived (if this language was everactually written down) has certainly not helped draw the attention and interest of scholars over the years toward the language of the Vandals. And, above all, it hassurely prevented our acquisition of sufficient knowledge of this language, whichhowever must have belonged, like Gothic, to the East Germanic group.As is also the case with the language spoken by the Lombards, the limitedexamples of existing Vandalic mostly consist of scattered, isolated words andpersonal names. In a sense, the extant records of the Vandal language are even less,and less important, than those of the Lombard language, since no legal terms are left,no corpus of Vandal laws remain, and no hints of Vandal juridical institutions ortraditions seem to exist. What we have instead are a few religious expressions, veryfew single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts, and one hundred and fortypersonal names. Owing to the religious debate that took place in North Africa duringthe fifth and sixth centuries between Catholics and the Arian Church of the Vandals, it is not surprising that some of the Vandalic terms we can find in late antique sourcesare related to religious life and Christian liturgy.So the only complete sentence that has been handed down to us is a two-wordreligious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” (in Greek Κύριε ελέησον, inEnglish “Lord have mercy”), which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic. We knowabout this from an anti-Arian tract, written in form of a debate, usually referred to as Collatio beati Augustini cum Pascentio ariano, dating back to the first half of the fifthcentury (approximately between 430 and 450 AD). It is supposed to have beencomposed at Hippo Regius, and was attributed to Vigilius of Thapsus, but actually its author is unknown.
quote: The Vandals spoke a language closely related to Gothic, with a few characteristics of its own. Gothic is well known through the translation of the Bible made by Wulfila in the 4th century. Like Gothic, the Vandal language belonged to the East Germanic group. It had conservative features, due to the early date of the evidence: the 5th and 6th centuries. There is no full record left of this language, since no written text in Vandalic has survived; but we know a religious expression and very few single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts of the time; most information comes from 140 personal names. Almost all linguistic evidence comes from the Vandal kingdom of North Africa. In such a peripheral position, far from its sister languages of the Germanic family, Vandalic preserved archaisms on the one hand and underwent an early process of Romanisation on the other.
Like Gothic, the language disappeared soon, and was lost about the time of the Byzantine conquest (534). It had begun to fall into disuse in certain sectors of African society as early as the second half of the 5th century. A bilingual period is however to be assumed for the descendants of the Vandals, who could also speak Latin, especially in big towns such as Carthage. From the analysis of personal names we can deduce the existence of multilingual realities in North Africa. In churches, bilingual liturgies had to be adopted for Romans and Vandals, and that is how we know about a Vandal liturgical formula.
The only complete sentence handed down to us is a two-word religious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic (cp. Gothic frauja ‘lord’). The Vand. formula froia arme ‘Lord have mercy’ appears in a Latin text as . froia . arme . quod interpraetatur “Domine miserere” and is preserved in a 6th-century rr manuscript now in Turin (Biblioteca Nazionale Universitaria, MS G.V. 26, fol. 15 -27 ), and recently studied by Tiefenbach [fig. 1].
Five more Vandalic words are mentioned in the Epigram No. 285 of Anthologia Latina (a 6th-century collection of Latin poems put together in Carthage), entitled “De Conviviis Barbaris”, which says: Inter ‘eils’ gothicum ‘scapia matzia ia drincan’ / non audet quisquam dignos educere versus. They are usually understood as ‘hail!’ (eils), ‘to shape’ or ‘create’ (scapia), ‘to eat and drink’ (matzia ia drincan), and the verse apparently alludes to barbarian feasting. To African contemporaries gothicum ‘Gothic’ could be just another name for ‘Vandal’, as they believed them to be the same language; but there were some differences. Both the Vandalic froia arme and the Epigram were well known to Wrede, the scholar who in 1886 collected all surviving traces of the Vandal language.
But since then new linguistic materials have emerged from the inscriptions of North Africa, consisting of ninety more Vandalic personal names recorded on coins, tombstones and other archaeological finds. Among these the following examples occur: Arifridos from a mosaic in Thuburbo Maius (Arifridos in [pace] vixit annos [...] depositvs di[e...] idvs novem[br..] [fig. 2]), Beremud and Beremuda from Carthage, Fridila on an inscription from ancient Caesarea, Guiliaruna on a 5th-century burial mosaic from Hippo Regius (Gvi+liarvna presbiterissa qviebit in pace), Guitifrida was another woman, like Munifrida from Carthage, Scarila a man who lived in the early 6th century, Sindivult from an inscription of Tipasa, Valilu fidelis was a woman from Hippo Regius, and Vilimut from a Carthage inscription.
Just like Gothic names, also the Vandal show both double-stem compounded forms (ex. Ari-fridos ‘army’+’peace’, Guilia-runa ‘will’+’secret’, Vili-mut ‘will’+‘courage’) and one- stem diminutives (like Valilu ‘the little chosen one’, Scarila ‘little armed band’). The latter show the typical East-Germanic suffix -ila (masc.) and -ilo (fem.). The characteristic East Germanic features appearing in Vandalic are as follows: lack of Umlaut. The original Proto- Germanic long vowel *ē is normally preserved, as in the Vand. names Gunthimer, Geilimer. Short *e gives Vand. i (ex. Gibamundus, Stilico; the Roman general Stilico was of Vandal origin). Proto-Germanic *z is always preserved: ex. Gaisericus (in Greek letters also Gezérichos), Geisirith, from *gaiza- ‘spear-point’. All such features, typical of East- Germanic, are also common to Gothic.
In a few cases the original -s ending of nominative masc. singular is preserved, as in vand. eils, and in the kings’ names Hunirix, Hildirix rex and Thrasamunds (on coins); this is clearly a rather conservative feature. Some of the names often have Romanized endings, like Thrasamundus, Gunthamundus, Gibamundus.
The main Vandalic linguistic characteristics which identify the language within the East- Germanic group are the following: the original diphthong *ai can be preserved as ai, then it tends in time to change into ei. For ex. the form Gaisericus (king 428-477) is regularly found in a 5th-century chronicle, but in other historical sources the usual form is Geisericus. Later on, we find the simplified spelling regis Gesiric on a 6th-century African inscription. Also the name of King Gelimer (530-534), son of Geilarith, is officially Geilamir, Geilimer on coins and inscriptions like the one engraved on his silver plate [fig. 3]; then we also find the spelling Gelimer in Procopius.
The adaptation of Vandalic forms to the Latin linguistic environment began rather early in the 5th century. We find for example the typical loss of h-, as in Arifridos, Ariarith, Gunt-ari (from Proto-Germ. *harja- ‘army’). A special kind of Romanisation is the emergence of mixed names, formed with Vandalic elements or suffixes, combined with Latin elements. This process began rather early, and it goes together with the quick Romanisation of Vandalic material culture as shown from archaeology. Hybrid names were formed with Latin and Vand. elements, like Iulia-teus; multiple names of heterogeneous origin are recorded in North Africa, like Flavius Vitalis Vitarit which combines the typical Vandalic name Vitarit with Lat. Vitalis, one of the most frequent names of Roman Africa. Outlining the linguistic forms of Vandalic is still a difficult task, unless new records in this language emerge from archives or from ongoing archaeological excavations.
Further Reference 1- 2- 3- F. Wrede, Über die Sprache der Wandalen, Strassburg 1886. H. Tiefenbach, “Das wandalische Domine miserere”, Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics 104, 2 (1991), 251-268. N. Francovich Onesti, I Vandali. Lingua e storia, Roma 2002.
--Nicoletta FRANCOVICH Onesti THE LANGUAGE AND NAMES OF THE VANDALS
posted
berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
As far as I know berber has little if any link to German language. It may have stronger links to Pheonician
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
There is no proof what so ever of Berber language being related to any Germanic languages. Berber language is Afro-Asiatic and limited to Africa. Thus its African and nothing else.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
There is no proof what so ever of Berber language being related to any Germanic languages. Berber language is Afro-Asiatic and limited to Africa. Thus its African and nothing else.
The Vandals spoke a language closely related to Gothic, with a few characteristics of its own. Gothic is well known through the translation of the Bible made by Wulfila in the 4th century. Like Gothic, the Vandal language belonged to the East Germanic group. It had conservative features, due to the early date of the evidence: the 5th and 6th centuries. There is no full record left of this language, since no written text in Vandalic has survived; but we know a religious expression and very few single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts of the time; most information comes from 140 personal names. Almost all linguistic evidence comes from the Vandal kingdom of North Africa. In such a peripheral position, far from its sister languages of the Germanic family, Vandalic preserved archaisms on the one hand and underwent an early process of Romanisation on the other.
Like Gothic, the language disappeared soon, and was lost about the time of the Byzantine conquest (534). It had begun to fall into disuse in certain sectors of African society as early as the second half of the 5th century. A bilingual period is however to be assumed for the descendants of the Vandals, who could also speak Latin, especially in big towns such as Carthage. From the analysis of personal names we can deduce the existence of multilingual realities in North Africa. In churches, bilingual liturgies had to be adopted for Romans and Vandals, and that is how we know about a Vandal liturgical formula.
The only complete sentence handed down to us is a two-word religious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic (cp. Gothic frauja ‘lord’). The Vand. formula froia arme ‘Lord have mercy’ appears in a Latin text as . froia . arme . quod interpraetatur “Domine miserere” and is preserved in a 6th-century rr manuscript now in Turin (Biblioteca Nazionale Universitaria, MS G.V. 26, fol. 15 -27 ), and recently studied by Tiefenbach [fig. 1].
Five more Vandalic words are mentioned in the Epigram No. 285 of Anthologia Latina (a 6th-century collection of Latin poems put together in Carthage), entitled “De Conviviis Barbaris”, which says: Inter ‘eils’ gothicum ‘scapia matzia ia drincan’ / non audet quisquam dignos educere versus. They are usually understood as ‘hail!’ (eils), ‘to shape’ or ‘create’ (scapia), ‘to eat and drink’ (matzia ia drincan), and the verse apparently alludes to barbarian feasting. To African contemporaries gothicum ‘Gothic’ could be just another name for ‘Vandal’, as they believed them to be the same language; but there were some differences. Both the Vandalic froia arme and the Epigram were well known to Wrede, the scholar who in 1886 collected all surviving traces of the Vandal language.
But since then new linguistic materials have emerged from the inscriptions of North Africa, consisting of ninety more Vandalic personal names recorded on coins, tombstones and other archaeological finds. Among these the following examples occur: Arifridos from a mosaic in Thuburbo Maius (Arifridos in [pace] vixit annos [...] depositvs di[e...] idvs novem[br..] [fig. 2]), Beremud and Beremuda from Carthage, Fridila on an inscription from ancient Caesarea, Guiliaruna on a 5th-century burial mosaic from Hippo Regius (Gvi+liarvna presbiterissa qviebit in pace), Guitifrida was another woman, like Munifrida from Carthage, Scarila a man who lived in the early 6th century, Sindivult from an inscription of Tipasa, Valilu fidelis was a woman from Hippo Regius, and Vilimut from a Carthage inscription.
Just like Gothic names, also the Vandal show both double-stem compounded forms (ex. Ari-fridos ‘army’+’peace’, Guilia-runa ‘will’+’secret’, Vili-mut ‘will’+‘courage’) and one- stem diminutives (like Valilu ‘the little chosen one’, Scarila ‘little armed band’). The latter show the typical East-Germanic suffix -ila (masc.) and -ilo (fem.). The characteristic East Germanic features appearing in Vandalic are as follows: lack of Umlaut. The original Proto- Germanic long vowel *ē is normally preserved, as in the Vand. names Gunthimer, Geilimer. Short *e gives Vand. i (ex. Gibamundus, Stilico; the Roman general Stilico was of Vandal origin). Proto-Germanic *z is always preserved: ex. Gaisericus (in Greek letters also Gezérichos), Geisirith, from *gaiza- ‘spear-point’. All such features, typical of East- Germanic, are also common to Gothic.
In a few cases the original -s ending of nominative masc. singular is preserved, as in vand. eils, and in the kings’ names Hunirix, Hildirix rex and Thrasamunds (on coins); this is clearly a rather conservative feature. Some of the names often have Romanized endings, like Thrasamundus, Gunthamundus, Gibamundus.
The main Vandalic linguistic characteristics which identify the language within the East- Germanic group are the following: the original diphthong *ai can be preserved as ai, then it tends in time to change into ei. For ex. the form Gaisericus (king 428-477) is regularly found in a 5th-century chronicle, but in other historical sources the usual form is Geisericus. Later on, we find the simplified spelling regis Gesiric on a 6th-century African inscription. Also the name of King Gelimer (530-534), son of Geilarith, is officially Geilamir, Geilimer on coins and inscriptions like the one engraved on his silver plate [fig. 3]; then we also find the spelling Gelimer in Procopius.
The adaptation of Vandalic forms to the Latin linguistic environment began rather early in the 5th century. We find for example the typical loss of h-, as in Arifridos, Ariarith, Gunt-ari (from Proto-Germ. *harja- ‘army’). A special kind of Romanisation is the emergence of mixed names, formed with Vandalic elements or suffixes, combined with Latin elements. This process began rather early, and it goes together with the quick Romanisation of Vandalic material culture as shown from archaeology. Hybrid names were formed with Latin and Vand. elements, like Iulia-teus; multiple names of heterogeneous origin are recorded in North Africa, like Flavius Vitalis Vitarit which combines the typical Vandalic name Vitarit with Lat. Vitalis, one of the most frequent names of Roman Africa. Outlining the linguistic forms of Vandalic is still a difficult task, unless new records in this language emerge from archives or from ongoing archaeological excavations.
Further Reference 1- 2- 3- F. Wrede, Über die Sprache der Wandalen, Strassburg 1886. H. Tiefenbach, “Das wandalische Domine miserere”, Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics 104, 2 (1991), 251-268. N. Francovich Onesti, I Vandali. Lingua e storia, Roma 2002.
--Nicoletta FRANCOVICH Onesti THE LANGUAGE AND NAMES OF THE VANDALS
posted
The fact that the Vandals spoke a Germanic language explains the close relationship between Berber and Germanic languages.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that many contemporary Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
The barbary corsairs were primarily Ottoman Turkish operations and Moroccan sultans were involved as well.
Trinitarian monks redeeming Christian captives a volume by Pierre Dan, entitled Histoire de Barbarie, et de ses corsaires Published in 1637, it tells the story of the Barbary Corsairs whose particular preying ground was the coasts of Italy and Spain.
Crucifying a Christian slave in a Muslim courtyard
Portrait of Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha , 16th century, Louvre Museum
Hayreddin Barbarossa, born Khizr was the most famous of the Barbary pirates ("corsairs") and an admiral in the Turkish Navy. He was born in the 1470s in the Ottoman island of Midilli (Lesbos), in the village Palaiokipos, Greece to his father Yakup Ağa and to his mother Katerina. Sources refer to Khizr as a Greek,[ as a Turk,[ or as an Albanian by origin. His mother was referred as a local Christian Greek woman from Mytilene, the widow of an Orthodox priest.[ His father Yakup was referred as a Greek renegade from Mytilene or Turkish as well as a former Sipahi from Yenice-i Vardar (modern Yannitsa) and took part in the Ottoman conquest of Lesbos in 1462 from the Genoese Gattilusio dynasty (who held the hereditary title of Lord of Lesbos between 1355 and 1462) and as a reward, was granted the fief of the Bonova village in the island.
In 1544, Hayreddin Barbarossa captured Ischia, taking 4,000 prisoners in the process, and deported to slavery some 9,000 inhabitants of Lipari, almost the entire population. In 1551, Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West) enslaved the entire population of the Maltese island Gozo, between 5,000 and 6,000, sending them to Libya. When pirates sacked Vieste in southern Italy in 1554 they took 7,000 slaves. In 1555, Turgut Reis sailed to Corsica and ransacked Bastia, taking 6,000 prisoners. In 1558 Barbary corsairs captured the town of Ciutadella (Minorca), destroyed it, slaughtered the inhabitants and carried off 3,000 survivors to Istanbul as slaves.[52] In 1563 Turgut Reis landed at the shores of the province of Granada, Spain, and captured the coastal settlements in the area like Almuñécar, along with 4,000 prisoners. Barbary pirates frequently attacked the Balearic islands, resulting in many coastal watchtowers and fortified churches being erected. The threat was so severe that the island of Formentera became uninhabited.
______________________________________ European slaves in the Moroccan slave market
The ruling Alaouites, who came to Morocco from Arabia, first settled in the Tafilalet in the thirteenth century and subdued the berbers. The evil Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif , reign 1672–1727 was the second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty.
The North African slave owners took delight in torturing their whites slaves, including beating and disfiguring them until they renounced Christianity and declared themselves Muslim. Slaves were forced to disfigure pictures of Jesus Christ, as a demonstration of their new faith. Those who refused to convert to Islam were tortured to death. One account describes a woman slave whose breasts were burnt and molten lead was poured into her genitals.
“Moulay Ismail had hit upon this idea of breeding slaves early in his reign. He found mulattos to be the most trustworthy of his servant-slaves and often forced his white slaves to wed black women in order to replenish his household of loyal half-castes” __White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam's One Million ... By Giles Milton
Mulai truly enjoyed marrying off his charges and thought of it as a game. The children that came from these arranged marriages were then taken and raised by Mulai’s men to be upright and obedient Islamic slaves.
Thomas Pellow (1704 - ?) was a Cornish author best known for the extensive slave narrative entitled The History of the Long Captivity and Adventures of Thomas Pellow in South-Barbary…Pellow's chronicles his many adventures spent during his 23-year long captivity (summer 1715 - July 1738) as he was groomed from a young boy into an elite military slave in the Moroccan empire. Pellow's narrative gives a detailed account of his capture of Barbary pirates, his experiences as a slave under Sultan Moulay Ismail, and his final escape from Morocco back to his Cornish origins. According to Pellow’s account, his captivity began at the age of eleven when sailing abroad in the summer of 1716 when his ship was attacked by Barbary pirates after crossing the Bay of Biscay. Pellow traveled with his uncle, John Pellow, who was the ship’s captain alongside five Englishman. Pellow and his shipmates were taken captive and delivered to Sultan Mulai Ismail of Morocco as prisoners. Pellow was one of the individuals handed over to the sultan, and consequently, he spent the next twenty-three years as a captive in Morocco. Pellow was himself a slave, and did not have free will to act as he chose. Pellow and Black Africans who were enslaved alongside him acted at the direction of the Sultan and Pellow reports a game played by Black African slave troops of the Sultan which was used to control and scare European and White slaves. The Black African slave troops would habitually throw a white captive into the air in such a way that he would break his neck when he hit the ground. This was performed as punishment for minor infractions or imagined excuses at the direction of the Sultan.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
Berber language is not influenced by German or any other known European language
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
Berber language is not influenced by German or any other known European language
And how would YOU possibly know that?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
There is no proof what so ever of Berber language being related to any Germanic languages. Berber language is Afro-Asiatic and limited to Africa. Thus its African and nothing else.
The Vandals spoke a language closely related to Gothic, with a few characteristics of its own. Gothic is well known through the translation of the Bible made by Wulfila in the 4th century. Like Gothic, the Vandal language belonged to the East Germanic group. It had conservative features, due to the early date of the evidence: the 5th and 6th centuries. There is no full record left of this language, since no written text in Vandalic has survived; but we know a religious expression and very few single words mentioned in Latin or Greek texts of the time; most information comes from 140 personal names. Almost all linguistic evidence comes from the Vandal kingdom of North Africa. In such a peripheral position, far from its sister languages of the Germanic family, Vandalic preserved archaisms on the one hand and underwent an early process of Romanisation on the other.
Like Gothic, the language disappeared soon, and was lost about the time of the Byzantine conquest (534). It had begun to fall into disuse in certain sectors of African society as early as the second half of the 5th century. A bilingual period is however to be assumed for the descendants of the Vandals, who could also speak Latin, especially in big towns such as Carthage. From the analysis of personal names we can deduce the existence of multilingual realities in North Africa. In churches, bilingual liturgies had to be adopted for Romans and Vandals, and that is how we know about a Vandal liturgical formula.
The only complete sentence handed down to us is a two-word religious formula, the acclamation “Domine Miserere” which was rendered as froia arme in Vandalic (cp. Gothic frauja ‘lord’). The Vand. formula froia arme ‘Lord have mercy’ appears in a Latin text as . froia . arme . quod interpraetatur “Domine miserere” and is preserved in a 6th-century rr manuscript now in Turin (Biblioteca Nazionale Universitaria, MS G.V. 26, fol. 15 -27 ), and recently studied by Tiefenbach [fig. 1].
Five more Vandalic words are mentioned in the Epigram No. 285 of Anthologia Latina (a 6th-century collection of Latin poems put together in Carthage), entitled “De Conviviis Barbaris”, which says: Inter ‘eils’ gothicum ‘scapia matzia ia drincan’ / non audet quisquam dignos educere versus. They are usually understood as ‘hail!’ (eils), ‘to shape’ or ‘create’ (scapia), ‘to eat and drink’ (matzia ia drincan), and the verse apparently alludes to barbarian feasting. To African contemporaries gothicum ‘Gothic’ could be just another name for ‘Vandal’, as they believed them to be the same language; but there were some differences. Both the Vandalic froia arme and the Epigram were well known to Wrede, the scholar who in 1886 collected all surviving traces of the Vandal language.
But since then new linguistic materials have emerged from the inscriptions of North Africa, consisting of ninety more Vandalic personal names recorded on coins, tombstones and other archaeological finds. Among these the following examples occur: Arifridos from a mosaic in Thuburbo Maius (Arifridos in [pace] vixit annos [...] depositvs di[e...] idvs novem[br..] [fig. 2]), Beremud and Beremuda from Carthage, Fridila on an inscription from ancient Caesarea, Guiliaruna on a 5th-century burial mosaic from Hippo Regius (Gvi+liarvna presbiterissa qviebit in pace), Guitifrida was another woman, like Munifrida from Carthage, Scarila a man who lived in the early 6th century, Sindivult from an inscription of Tipasa, Valilu fidelis was a woman from Hippo Regius, and Vilimut from a Carthage inscription.
Just like Gothic names, also the Vandal show both double-stem compounded forms (ex. Ari-fridos ‘army’+’peace’, Guilia-runa ‘will’+’secret’, Vili-mut ‘will’+‘courage’) and one- stem diminutives (like Valilu ‘the little chosen one’, Scarila ‘little armed band’). The latter show the typical East-Germanic suffix -ila (masc.) and -ilo (fem.). The characteristic East Germanic features appearing in Vandalic are as follows: lack of Umlaut. The original Proto- Germanic long vowel *ē is normally preserved, as in the Vand. names Gunthimer, Geilimer. Short *e gives Vand. i (ex. Gibamundus, Stilico; the Roman general Stilico was of Vandal origin). Proto-Germanic *z is always preserved: ex. Gaisericus (in Greek letters also Gezérichos), Geisirith, from *gaiza- ‘spear-point’. All such features, typical of East- Germanic, are also common to Gothic.
In a few cases the original -s ending of nominative masc. singular is preserved, as in vand. eils, and in the kings’ names Hunirix, Hildirix rex and Thrasamunds (on coins); this is clearly a rather conservative feature. Some of the names often have Romanized endings, like Thrasamundus, Gunthamundus, Gibamundus.
The main Vandalic linguistic characteristics which identify the language within the East- Germanic group are the following: the original diphthong *ai can be preserved as ai, then it tends in time to change into ei. For ex. the form Gaisericus (king 428-477) is regularly found in a 5th-century chronicle, but in other historical sources the usual form is Geisericus. Later on, we find the simplified spelling regis Gesiric on a 6th-century African inscription. Also the name of King Gelimer (530-534), son of Geilarith, is officially Geilamir, Geilimer on coins and inscriptions like the one engraved on his silver plate [fig. 3]; then we also find the spelling Gelimer in Procopius.
The adaptation of Vandalic forms to the Latin linguistic environment began rather early in the 5th century. We find for example the typical loss of h-, as in Arifridos, Ariarith, Gunt-ari (from Proto-Germ. *harja- ‘army’). A special kind of Romanisation is the emergence of mixed names, formed with Vandalic elements or suffixes, combined with Latin elements. This process began rather early, and it goes together with the quick Romanisation of Vandalic material culture as shown from archaeology. Hybrid names were formed with Latin and Vand. elements, like Iulia-teus; multiple names of heterogeneous origin are recorded in North Africa, like Flavius Vitalis Vitarit which combines the typical Vandalic name Vitarit with Lat. Vitalis, one of the most frequent names of Roman Africa. Outlining the linguistic forms of Vandalic is still a difficult task, unless new records in this language emerge from archives or from ongoing archaeological excavations.
Further Reference 1- 2- 3- F. Wrede, Über die Sprache der Wandalen, Strassburg 1886. H. Tiefenbach, “Das wandalische Domine miserere”, Historische Sprachforschung / Historical Linguistics 104, 2 (1991), 251-268. N. Francovich Onesti, I Vandali. Lingua e storia, Roma 2002.
--Nicoletta FRANCOVICH Onesti THE LANGUAGE AND NAMES OF THE VANDALS
As you can see linguist know that the vandal language was Germanic.
.
Of course they do, the history of and root of the Vandals is well known.
1660s, "willful destroyer of what is beautiful or venerable," from Vandals, name of the Germanic tribe that sacked Rome in 455 under Genseric, from Latin Vandalus (plural Vandali), from the tribe's name for itself (Old English Wendlas), perhaps from Proto-Germanic *wandljaz "wanderer." The literal historical sense in English is recorded from 1550s.
There does not seem to be in the story of the capture of Rome by the Vandals any justification for the charge of willful and objectless destruction of public buildings which is implied in the word 'vandalism.'
It is probable that this charge grew out of the fierce persecution which was carried on by [the Vandal king] Gaiseric and his son against the Catholic Christians, and which is the darkest stain on their characters. ["Encyclopaedia Britannica," 13th ed., 1926]
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: berber language might be related to Vandal languge but there is near very little known about Vandal language to determine this
I have posted two studies. Did you actually read them?
Berber is not solely influenced by classic German.
It is also know as a branch of Afrasan. So I think it's a bit more complex. Then to just say, it's classical German.
The question that this brings up for me is, who much of the European Language presence have to do with the introduction of slaves. We know many were brought from all over Europe. This had to have had some impact on the language just as it had impact on DNA.
It's even more complex than just that,
quote: Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
Gaiseric, and especially his son Hunneric (477-484), tried to impose Arianism on the African Catholics. This led to a relentless campaign of persecution in which priests were tortured to make them reveal church treasures and bishops were killed or exiled. Free men including wealthy landowners were enslaved or fined, and their lands were distributed amongst the Vandal warriors, while the large imperial estates were seized for the royal domain. Only Arians were appointed at court. Catholic churches were pillaged, or used as stables, and town walls were pulled down to prevent rebellion. Under Hilderic (523-531) some churches were restored to the Catholics, but Vandal pirates may still have posed a threat to Byzantine trade. The Byzantine army under General Belisarius took advantage of civil unrest to stage a rapid reconquest of North Africa in 534. King Gelimer was eventually captured while many Vandal survivors enlisted in the Byzantine cavalry to serve against the Persians and Ostrogoths, or fled to join the Moors, or were enslaved. After this, no more is heard of them, although they are still remembered for their depredations today.
Little archaeological evidence remains of Vandal presence in North Africa, except for some jewellery, and representations and personal names in a few fine mosaics, as at Annaba and Thebesa. In spite of their reputation, they seem to have largely adopted late Antique culture and an urban way of life, maintaining Roman buildings and installations and much of the old civil administration, although their kingdom was in decline by the end of the sixth century. A hoard of cut garnets found at Carthage suggests the presence of an early cloisonné workshop there.
The Vandals formed a group of Eastern Germanic peoples, originally perhaps from Jutland. They occupied lands between the Oder and Vistula rivers in the first century AD. According to a Roman historian, they lived in waggons and moved from pasture to pasture tending their herds of cattle and horses. While living in the Danube region the Vandals supplied troops for the Roman army and adopted the heretical Arian form of Christianity. Later, when they migrated to areas of the Roman Empire, Arianism set the Vandals apart from native populations.
At the end of 406 the Vandals joined with escaped slaves from Pannonia and other barbarian tribes, including the Suevi, the nomadic Alans, and some Goths, and crossed the frozen Rhine near Mainz into Roman Gaul, probably to escape from domination by the Huns. After ravaging France they crossed the Pyrenees in 409 and eventually settled in southern Spain for a while. They occupied the countryside, but left the towns to the native population. Their name might be preserved in that of Andalusia, but this is uncertain. The Vandals seized Roman ships and made piratical raids around the Mediterranean, even as far as the coasts of Greece.
Allegedly at the invitation of a disgraced Roman governor, Count Boniface, the Vandals crossed to North Africa in 429. A census, taken at that time, numbered 80,000 males amongst them. Under King Gaiseric they went on to establish an autocratic kingdom in what is today eastern Algeria and Tunisia. The kingdom centred on Carthage, the wealthy third city of the empire and Rome's main source of grain. There they built a fleet with which they were able to seize the Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Corsica and western Sicily. They even captured Rome itself briefly in 455, stripping the city of its riches and carrying off the empress Eudoxia and her two daughters. The emperor was forced to recognize Vandal rule after an attempt to recover Africa was defeated in 460 and the Vandal kings issued their own coins as a symbol of their independence.
The early Germans either buried or cremated their dead with their personal possessions, which tells us much about their way of life, as well as their burial customs. Also, both archaeological and historical evidence suggests that merchants from the Roman Empire traded wine, glass and bronze vessels, pottery and textiles in exchange for amber, furs, and slaves. The frontier was not closed and markets were set up at controlled crossings. Leaders of Germanic tribes were often given diplomatic payments of gold coins by the Romans to buy their friendship, as, in the late third and fourth centuries, larger and more permanent confederations formed. After swearing an oath of loyalty to the Emperor, Germanic warriors could serve as auxiliaries in the Roman army and even rise to high rank. Some groups were given subsidies and land to settle within the Empire. This encouraged them to cultivate deserted tracts and prevent raiding, provided that they recognized Rome's supremacy. As Roman authority declined, however, they were able to assert their independence.
In the late fourth and fifth centuries, in the so-called Migration Period, a number of Germanic peoples from beyond the Rhine and Danube set out for better lands, for various reasons - particularly to escape from the invasion of the nomadic Huns from the east, or overpopulation or flooding in their homelands. This brought them into serious conflict with the Empire, and eventually to the break-up of the western part of it and the deposition of the western Emperor himself, in 476. In the early Middle Ages, the main Germanic peoples comprised the Anglo-Saxons and Saxons, the Franks, or Merovingians, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths, Vandals and Lombards. Important, too, were the Frisians, Alemanni, Burgundians, Suevi, Thuringians and others. The Danes, Swedes and Norse of Scandinavia later became known as the Vikings.
The early Germanic peoples of northern Europe (sometimes also called the Teutons) first became known to the Classical world when a Greek merchant named Pytheas sailed into the North Sea early in the fourth century BC. According to the Roman historian Tacitus, writing in AD 98, they comprised a large number of tribes and one or two confederations, living mainly between the rivers Rhine, Danube and Vistula, in the region known as 'Germania'. The largest groups numbered probably no more than about 150,000 and they were mainly farmers, herdsmen and fishermen. They had no towns and lived in farms and villages, though some of the latter were quite large. Without overall unity, the tribes were often in conflict, both with one another and with the Romans, who regarded them as barbarians. Nevertheless, their simpler way of life was idealised by Tacitus, who saw them as preserving virtues and values which the Romans themselves had once possessed.
The Germanic tribes would have spoken very similar languages. Most modern northern European languages (for example, English, German, and Dutch) are derived from these earlier tongues. These peoples are known to have been closely related by customs, religion and material culture as well as by language.
posted
How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
good question Trollkillah keeps posting the TRACING THE LANGUAGE OF THE VANDALS essay over and over again and it doesn't even mention berbers. If you went back several months he was suggesting that because there were no human remains identified as Vandal in North Africa that the Vandals in Africa were a myth.(flip flop) Now he's done a 180 because of Clyde, who based his remarks on his dogmatic following of outdated Diop remarks.
Have we seen any research connecting Vandal words or place names to berber , no. It's just going to be more spamming about Vandals with no connecting them to berbers
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?
good question Trollkillah keeps posting the TRACING THE LANGUAGE OF THE VANDALS essay over and over again and it doesn't even mention berbers. If you went back several months he was suggesting that because there were no human remains identified as Vandal in North Africa that the Vandals in Africa were a myth.(flip flop) Now he's done a 180 because of Clyde, who based his remarks on his dogmatic following of outdated Diop remarks.
Have we seen any research connecting Vandal words or place names to berber , no. It's just going to be more spamming about Vandals with no connecting them to berbers
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
What this tells is, that those Vandals who spoke proto-Germanic have influenced the original Berber language. In certain regions. Both papers do mention North Africa and Vandals quite allot.
I yet have to figure out to what extend this proto-German was imported, in loanwords.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
do you mean genetic in terms of DNA or linguistic?
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What this tells is, that those Vandals who spoke proto-Germanic have influenced the original Berber language. In certain regions.
No it doesn't If Vandals were in the region it
1) doesn't mean they impressed on berber language a Germanic influence
2) doesn't mean mean they did not stop speaking their language and start speaking local language or Phoenician
3) The Vandals came into Africa after the Pheonicians Greeks and Romans in the area. Particular berbers the Vandals may have come into contact with in the Roman territories may have spoken Greek, Latin or Phoenician
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
do you mean genetic in terms of DNA or linguistic?
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What this tells is, that those Vandals who spoke proto-Germanic have influenced the original Berber language. In certain regions.
No it doesn't If Vandals were in the region it
1) doesn't mean they impressed on berber language a Germanic influence
2) doesn't mean mean they did not stop speaking their language and start speaking local language or Phoenician
3) The Vandals came into Africa after the Pheonicians Greeks and Romans in the area. Particular berbers the Vandals may have come into contact with in the Roman territories may have spoken Greek, Latin or Phoenician
So, you're saying that other languages didn't influence the berber language, with loanwords?
Do tell what makes you the expert here on Berber language?
Do you understand the word "influence". Not root but "influence". Okeedoke?
quote:
The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
quote: The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition. It is also a period of archaeological and material transition: towns and economic system change, public structures (but not churches) decay. I have analysed how classical towns changed through centuries, how building were reused and progressively transformed.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.
Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.
Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there.
Here is more on their history in North Africa.
quote:• 500 North Africa is in the hands of Vandal rulers, adherents of a form of Christianity called Arianism. The Vandals are few in number, however, and rely on the Romanized African elite to maintain local institutions. The Western Church based in Rome remains powerful, with the Latin language dominant. Cities founded under Roman rule begin to lose vitality, as the urban population dwindles and civic buildings fall into disrepair. Artists continue to work in the styles current before the Vandal invasions.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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