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Author Topic: The 'Average' Northwest African Phenotype/Origins of Northwest Africans
Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.

Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.

Oh, there is certainly information out there about and on their presence of Ottoman ancestry and descendants in Libya.


https://www.facebook.com/InternationalLibyanTurkishSchool


And here is "500 YEARS IN TURKISH-LIBYAN RELATIONS"


Unfortunately the author; ORHAN KOLOĞLU, doesn't mention the Phoenicians allot, but for one time only. [Frown]

quote:

I. THE PRE-OTTOMAN ERA


Libya before the arrival of the Turks:

The word “Libya” in early history was a geographical expression. As written by one source:

As used by the ancient Greeks, it referred generally to North Africa, comprising the southern littoral of the Mediterranean from the Nile Delta to the Atlantic, and also its desert hinterland and oases. The name derives from a single tribe established in eastern Cyrenaica early in the 2nd millennium B.C. There is reason to think that the territory as a whole showed a considerable degree of uniformity of race and culture (...) The physical type of the people was clearly Mediterranean, and contrasted with the Negroid races inhabiting the desert to the south. Their way of life was that of shepherd nomads loosely organized into tribes and confederations (...) They had their own kingdom (...) Later, Libya was colonized by the Greeks, and eventually passed under Roman control. It subsequently came under Muslim-Arab domination, followed by the Ottoman suzerainty.

1 The word “Libya” ceased to circulate in the post Greek and Roman periods, when North Africa remained divided under different rulers. Tripolitania (Ottoman Trablous al gharb), Cyrenaica = Barca 2 and Fezzan were distinct entities.

Separated by the Gulf of Sirte, Tripoli, at all times, was known to be part of Maghreb, and Cyrenaica of Mashrek. On the other hand, Fezzan was always conceived to be independent from both Tripoli and Cyrenaica.

(Page 11)


[...]

In the interaction between Libya and the Mediterranean politics and trade, Tripoli, the main port in Libya, has played major roles:

From the strategic point of view, the area between Tripoli- Siracuse and Bone-Trepani forms a corridor that splits the Mediterranean.4 For those who would try to dominate either the Eastern or the Western Mediterranean, Tripoli constitutes a strategic point that must be captured in order to pass across the other side. ‘For this reason, do we have to be surprised?’ asks Braudel.5 He connects majority of the wars taking place in this region during the 16th century to the domination of the Mediterranean; these wars include Tripoli (1511,1551), Djerba (1510,1520,1560), Tunis (1535,1573,1574), Bizerte (1573,1574), and Malta (1565). Moreover, Braudel propounds that Spain’s great interest in capturing Tripoli in 1510 was because it needed a reliable route along the southern coast in order to transport the rich Sicilian wheat.

(Page 14)


[...]


The establishment of Phoenician colonies along the Libyan coast for the purchase of goods – gold, ivory, and feathers – and slaves from Central Africa and Sudan is also a mark of the historical appeal of this transit trade.1 On the other hand, local Libyan trade was of little importance because of the plain way of life and limited production capability of the Saharan people. They could only offer dates, salt, wax, in exchange for wheat, cloth, etc...

(Page 13)

500 YEARS IN TURKISH-LIBYAN RELATIONS

http://edoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/HALCoRe_derivate_00003723/500%20Years%20in%20Turkish-Libyan%20Relations.pdf


And again the BBC article:

quote:
Berbers, or Amazigh, make up 5-10% of Libya's six million population

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-23690797


The majority of the population is described as Arab-Berber? According to this map.

What could this, or rather, what does this imply?

 -

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.

Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.

Here is some other info, you'll find interesting:


Turkey Seizes Libyan Bank Assets

quote:


Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, center, in Benghazi Sunday. European Pressphoto Agency

 -




ISTANBUL—Turkey seized control of Libyan bank assets Monday, one day after recognizing Libya's opposition in Benghazi as the country's legitimate government, in moves that effectively severed remaining ties to Col. Moammar Gadhafi.

In a statement, Turkey's Savings Deposit Insurance Fund said it had taken temporary control of Libya's 62.37% stake in A&T Bank, formerly known as the Arab-Turkish Bank, in response to United Nations Security Council resolution requirements.

A&T Bank was formed 30 years ago to facilitate Turkish trade, primarily with Libya, and underwrote over $2 billion in letters of credit and guarantee in 2010, according to the bank's annual report.

Muammar Gaddafi's son rejects calls for his father to step down and says that Western powers have made themselves "legitimate targets" for retaliation. Jessica Gray reports.. Video Courtesy of Reuters.

Click image
 -




The bank had 1.4 billion Turkish lira ($862.7 million) in assets, the report said. That move, and Sunday's recognition of the Libyan opposition's National Transitional Council, appeared to close the circle on Turkey's gradual shift from being one of Col. Gadhafi's staunchest supporters at the start of the country's fighting in February, to aligning clearly with the opposition.

Over the past two months in particular, Turkey's leaders have been adjusting a foreign policy that went under the rubric "zero problems with neighbors" to changes forced by the Arab Spring, analysts say. In Libya as in Syria, Turkish foreign policy had been built on strong ties with leaders now targeted by mass revolts.


"The demands of the people for reform must be met. Al-Gadhafi must go. Libya must not be divided. We recognize the [National Transitional Council] as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people," Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Sunday, while visiting the Libyan opposition stronghold Benghazi, according to Turkey's state-run Anatolian news agency.

Mr. Davutoglu arrived with a delegation of about 100 government officials and businessmen in response to opposition calls for urgent infrastructure reconstruction aid, according to an official involved in the trip. The Turkish foreign minister promised $100 million in cash aid and $100 million in projects for Libya, in addition to $100 million already pledged, Anatolian reported.

Selcuk Unal, the foreign ministry spokesman, said the visit was unrelated to recent public threats from Libyan opposition leaders that a post-Gadhafi government would favor countries that had actively supported them, over those that had stood by.

"This trip was planned six or eight weeks ago," Mr. Unal said, adding that it was delayed first by Turkey's national elections June 12, in which Mr. Davutoglu ran for a seat in Parliament, and then by difficulties of lining up schedules. He also stressed that Turkey hasn't severed diplomatic relations with Tripoli, although the Turkish embassy was evacuated in early May.

Turkish officials acknowledge that Ankara's response to the unrest in Libya has been affected by its economic interests. At the outset of the conflict, some 25,000 Turkish citizens were living in Libya and had to be evacuated. In 2009-2010, Turkish companies launched $7.6 billion in construction contracts in Libya, according to Turkey's Foreign Economic Relations Board, or DEIK. Most of these contracts are in areas of Libya still under Col. Gadhafi's control.

When fighting first broke out, Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdog an spoke out vehemently against any military intervention in Libya, accusing Western allies of seeking to exploit Libya's oil resources. At one point, protesters in Benghazi burned the Turkish flag. But Ankara eventually joined Western allies in calling for Mr. Gadhafi's resignation.

Monday's statement by the insurance fund said the Libyan shares in A&T Bank were being seized in response to UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973 on Libya, which were passed in late February and mid-March. The statement gave no explanation for the delay. A spokesperson for the bank didn't respond to phone and e-mailed requests for comment.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304760604576425700767313490
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
what you should have said in 2011 was that Saif Gaddafi said that Libya was half black

But instead you left out his name and said that "Libya is 50% black" making it sound as if that was hard statistical data


Perhaps the largest group of indigenous black African inclusive of parts of Libya are the Tubu ( aka Toubou).They live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan and are roughly estimated to be 350,000
There are also the Toureg estimated to be 10,000 - 17,000 and it is hard to said what portion of them is "black".
The idea that Libya is 50% indigenous black is ridiculous. All one needs to do is look at the ethnic groups and they are under half a million in an overall population of 6.5 million

______________________________________

http://www.modernghana.com/news/318974/1/black-africans-in-libya-cry-out-for-help.html

modern ghana news

Out of a population of about seven million people in Libya, about one million are believed to be from sub-Saharan African countries. There are no concrete figures. Reports claimed that about three quarters of these Africans are sort of on a waiting list to try by any means to cross to Europe.

^^^ So most blacks in the country are migrant workers. If you add this to the indigenous and the descendants of Ottoman slaves who are earlier Sudanese or other SSA you get a figure well under 50%
Must we not question this just because we like the sound of it ?


My guess is that Saif Gaddafi was greatly exaggerating the size of the black population in Libya for politcial reasons in an interview. The Gaddafis are masters of rhetoric and under duress from being overthrown by the rebels/NATO
So Libya was 50% black all these deacdes and now only when Gaddafi is overthrown does this "fact" come out ??

_________________________________________


http://www.minorityrights.org/4171/libya/libya-overview.html


Main minority groups: Berber (Amazigh) est. 236,000 to 590,000 (4-10%), Tuareg est. 17,000 (0.3%), foreigners, 600,000 documented (10%) and 1.1-1.2 million undocumented (18-20%)

[Note: Reliable statistics for Libya are unavailable. Estimates for the numbers of Berber speakers vary between four and ten per cent. The number of Tuareg is from the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in 2009. The numbers for foreigners are Libyan government figures cited by Human Rights Watch (HWR) in 2006.]

Demographic data for Libya is scarce, but around 90 per cent of the population belongs to the Arabic-speaking majority of mixed Arab–Berber ancestry. The Sunni branch of Islam is the official and nationally dominant political, cultural and legal force. Berbers, who retain the Berber language and customs, are the largest non-Arab minority. Libyan Berbers call themselves Amazigh (plural: Imazighen) and are one of the indigenous populations of North Africa. They are made of up of different ethnic groups, including nomadic Tuareg.
Other minorities include the Arabic-speakers of West African ancestry, who inhabit the southern oases, and the Berber-related Tuareg and Tebu (Toubou), who live in the south of the country.


- See more at: http://www.minorityrights.org/4171/libya/libya-overview.html#sthash.9f473PQT.dpuf


_____________________________

http://lib.ohchr.org/HRBodies/UPR/Documents/Session9/LY/A_HRC_WG.6_9_LBY_3_Libya.pdf

Summary prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in accordance with paragraph 15 (c) of the annex to Human rights Council resolution 5/1: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

 -

Your post is certainly interesting, especially seen from this perspective! It sheds a "new light".


quote:
In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civili- zation” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confedera- tion, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).

--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104


quote:
• 27 B.C.–14 A.D.The principate of Augustus is established. Rome is transformed into a city of marble. The Roman frontiers are expanded and semiconquered territories reinforced. Augustus reconciles with Parthia (22–19 B.C.), and his campaign against Garamantes in Africa is successful (19 B.C.). Many social and religious reforms are enacted. Gaul and its frontiers are organized (15–13 B.C.). The imperial mint at Lugdunum is founded (15–14 B.C.).
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=04®ion=eust#/Key-Events


quote:
The findings challenge a view dating back to Roman accounts that the Garamantes consisted of barbaric nomads and troublemakers on the edge of the Roman Empire.
http://www.livescience.com/16916-castles-lost-cities-revealed-libyan-desert.html

quote:
The Phoenician port of Lpgy was founded at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC and first populated by the Garamantes. The city, which was part of the domain of Carthage, passed under the ephemeral control of Massinissa, King of Numidia. The Romans, who had quartered a garrison there during the war against Jugurtha, integrated it, in 46 BC, into the province of Africa while at the same time allowing it a certain measure of autonomy.
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/183
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
what you should have said in 2011 was that Saif Gaddafi said that Libya was half black

But instead you left out his name and said that "Libya is 50% black" making it sound as if that was hard statistical data


Perhaps the largest group of indigenous black African inclusive of parts of Libya are the Tubu ( aka Toubou).They live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan and are roughly estimated to be 350,000
There are also the Toureg estimated to be 10,000 - 17,000 and it is hard to said what portion of them is "black".
The idea that Libya is 50% indigenous black is ridiculous. All one needs to do is look at the ethnic groups and they are under half a million in an overall population of 6.5 million

______________________________________

http://www.modernghana.com/news/318974/1/black-africans-in-libya-cry-out-for-help.html

modern ghana news

Out of a population of about seven million people in Libya, about one million are believed to be from sub-Saharan African countries. There are no concrete figures. Reports claimed that about three quarters of these Africans are sort of on a waiting list to try by any means to cross to Europe.

^^^ So most blacks in the country are migrant workers. If you add this to the indigenous and the descendants of Ottoman slaves who are earlier Sudanese or other SSA you get a figure well under 50%
Must we not question this just because we like the sound of it ?


My guess is that Saif Gaddafi was greatly exaggerating the size of the black population in Libya for politcial reasons in an interview. The Gaddafis are masters of rhetoric and under duress from being overthrown by the rebels/NATO
So Libya was 50% black all these deacdes and now only when Gaddafi is overthrown does this "fact" come out ??

_________________________________________


http://www.minorityrights.org/4171/libya/libya-overview.html


Main minority groups: Berber (Amazigh) est. 236,000 to 590,000 (4-10%), Tuareg est. 17,000 (0.3%), foreigners, 600,000 documented (10%) and 1.1-1.2 million undocumented (18-20%)

[Note: Reliable statistics for Libya are unavailable. Estimates for the numbers of Berber speakers vary between four and ten per cent. The number of Tuareg is from the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in 2009. The numbers for foreigners are Libyan government figures cited by Human Rights Watch (HWR) in 2006.]

Demographic data for Libya is scarce, but around 90 per cent of the population belongs to the Arabic-speaking majority of mixed Arab–Berber ancestry. The Sunni branch of Islam is the official and nationally dominant political, cultural and legal force. Berbers, who retain the Berber language and customs, are the largest non-Arab minority. Libyan Berbers call themselves Amazigh (plural: Imazighen) and are one of the indigenous populations of North Africa. They are made of up of different ethnic groups, including nomadic Tuareg.
Other minorities include the Arabic-speakers of West African ancestry, who inhabit the southern oases, and the Berber-related Tuareg and Tebu (Toubou), who live in the south of the country.


- See more at: http://www.minorityrights.org/4171/libya/libya-overview.html#sthash.9f473PQT.dpuf


_____________________________

http://lib.ohchr.org/HRBodies/UPR/Documents/Session9/LY/A_HRC_WG.6_9_LBY_3_Libya.pdf

Summary prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in accordance with paragraph 15 (c) of the annex to Human rights Council resolution 5/1: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

 -

What a absolutely silly mental exercise you have engaged in.

1. Tebou are not the only blacks there. There are so called black berbers there, tawargha, and many other groups. Your attempt to relegate blackness to one group, which you have googled, is beyond inept.

Secondly, how much more official do you want statistics than from a GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL? Also, there is a US government official who stated the SAME statistics and she has spent time there, unlike you.

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Ish Gebor
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Pardon me for posting these travel websites. I'm looking for historical archeological and anthropological data on Zuwarah and Gharyan. If any of you can provide this/ these, I welcome it/ them. So we can separate facts from fictions.


Thanks in advance.


quote:

Tibuda

Tibuda is situated only a few kilometres to the west of Zwara city and sits about seven to ten meters under water and about 200 meters from the coast. It is not yet fully explored nor properly catalogued . Its close proximity to Zuwarah city may shed more light about the ancient history of Zuwara before its ancient coast was claimed by the sea. The disappearance of land under the sea is a common occurrence in nature and the Mediterranean sea had claimed many coastal cities in the past. It was predicted that it will continue to do so in the future especially after the predicted melting of the arctic and antarctic ice. Tibuda was the ancient port of the city of Zuwarah during the Roman period and that the port was used to export the main commodities produced by the Zuwaran communities mainly salt, lime and gypsum.


From what has been explored so far Tibuda looks like a small city with stone columns and building structures thought to have been built thousands of years ago probably dating back to the Carthaginian period. This conclusion is evidenced by the archaeological remains found south of Tibuda. These remains or ruins have always been there and were always part of Zuwarah’s history. They are located about four kilometres (4 km) west of Zuwara. As far as we know the site is not catalogued nor fully studied by any academic authority. There is no doubt that the site is very ancient because among the finds were remains of Roman villas and buildings, mosaic pieces and pottery.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/tiboda


quote:
A Day in Gharyan, Libya

Gharyan situated in north west Libya is one of the largest towns in the Nafusa Mountains. This area isn’t an overly popular tourist destination, but for those who do spend a day here get to enjoy a choice of fantastic history and culture.

Gharyan was originally a trade route and later became the center of the resistance in the twentieth century against the Italians. But it’s not this part of this town that you will want to explore, it’s the interesting Berber village that is what draws tourists to this area.

The Berber troglodytes are built underground into the rock of the mountains, very few are inhabited and they offer fantastic opportunities for you to see these interesting homes. The homes were built this way as a superb insulation technique and to keep them hidden.

You don’t see these homes until you are almost on top of them, dug into the ground they are rooms joined by passages.

Not far from Gharyan is the World War II relics that are a must to see, such as the former Italian barracks which are easily accessible along a very bumpy road.

Only one hundred kilometers from Tripoli, Gharyan is a wonderful day trip when in the area. This town is renowned for their amazing pottery, where you can buy some great souvenirs to take back home with you.

It’s an opportunity to get out of the city and explore a different part of the country. This is a very deserted area, but offers tourists a wonderful insight into the history of this part of Libya, how the locals lived and you will be amazed at how they built these interesting homes under the ground to keep them safe.

Whether you hire a car from Tripoli or take a guided tour, Gharyan should not be left off your list when visiting Libya.

http://www.libyatravelandtours.com/libya-travel-tips/day-gharyan-libya/
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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What is important to understand from scientific studies is that African people and Ancient Egyptians don't just share a common skin color or geographical location, but they share a common origin, history, archaeological continuity, culture, language, religion, etc.

So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.

For example, most Cushitic, Chadic and Niger-Congo speakers are carrier of the E-P2/PN2 Y-DNA haplogroup, and thus share a common origin (after the OOA). At that time, they spoke one common language. The language spoken by their common E-P2 ancestor (maybe Obenga's Negro-Egyptian).

Here below we can see most African languages like Yoruba, Somali, Afar, Dogon, Wolof, Zulu, Dinka, etc have their common origin in the same region in (north) Eastern Africa (post dating the OOA migration of non-Africans of course):

 -
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)

There also have been a lot of admixture between African population throughout history.

We can also see it genetically (autosomal DNA):

 -
- From The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans (2009)

Link to bigger and clearer image

From the graph above for example, you can see Yoruba are much closer genetically to lets say Kikuyu than Palestinians or Basque. My contentious is that Ancient Egyptians in general would be closer to African populations than to non-African populations, especially at the formative stage (because there's been a lot of invasions and immigration afterwards even in dynastic time).

This is supported by some mainstream sources too:

quote:
Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data. In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography. -From Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt (1999) pp 328-332

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.

Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.

Not just that, there is even more.


quote:
Ruled by a succession of Egyptian-based dynasties in the later Middle Ages, Cyrenaica came under the nominal suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire after the 15th century; in the mid-19th century the region became the centre of the


Sanusiyah religious brotherhood and dynasty. As a result of the Italo Turkish war, Cyrenaica, with Tripolitania, was ceded to Italy in 1912, and by 1940 about 50,000 Italian peasant colonists were converting northern Cyrenaica into the semblance of an Italian province, cultivating cereals, vines, and fruit trees.


http://tourslibya.com/cyrenaica/


quote:
Cyrene (UNESCO)


Cyrene was the most important Greek city in North Africa, founded in the 7th century BC by a party of immigrants who had fled the drought-inflicted island of Thera in the Aegean Sea. Its early history was a volatile one and characterized by murder and conflict among the ruling families.

Under King Battus IV (515-470 BC) it enjoyed a period of relative calm and prosperity although his successor Arcesilaus IV was assassinated. From 322 BC Cyrenaica came under the control of the Greek general Ptolemy I and his dynasty.

In 96 BC the Romans took possession of Cyrenaica and it became a province of Rome eighteen years later. Thereafter it enjoyed a period of peace until a Jewish revolt in 115 AD caused widespread destruction.

Following reconstruction under the Emperor Hadrian Cyrene again entered a period of prosperity.

In 365 AD, during the Byzantine period an earthquake destroyed much of the city which at the time had not yet embraced Christianity. A grand rebuilding program took place although former places of pagan worship were desecrated including the great temple of Zeus.

 Built on a series of levels the spectacular ruins of Cyrene include the Sanctuary and Temple of Apollo, the Acropolis, the Agora, the Forum, the Stoa of Hermes and Heracles, the House of Jason Magnus, the Nine Muses and the Temple of Zeus.

http://tourslibya.com/sights/cyrene-2

quote:
Apollonia


Apollonia served as the port of Cyrene, 20 km to the southwest and it was founded by Greek colonists. Through out the years it became a significant commercial centre in the Mediterranean. The area consist of a beach cut by rugged rocks, inlands there are hills all giving Apollonia a very nice setting. The Theatre is sited in a particularly picturesque location by the sea. Other buildings include the Eastern, Central, Western Basilicas and the Byzantine Palace.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/apollonia


quote:
Alburdi


Alburdi is located on the eastern coast of Libya not far from the Egyptian border and one hour drive from Tobruk. The site attracts a number of tourists for its relation to World War Two and also for its unique mountainous landscape. A newly opened luxury hotel provides an ideal base to explore and enjoy this isolated and unknown site in Libya.

http://tourslibya.com/sights/alburdi


quote:
Qasr Libya


Qasr Libya is located about 50 miles to the west of Cyrene city. The name Qasr Libya means the “castle of Libya”. Some archaeologists referred to this location by the name of Qasr el-Lebia or Qaser Libia. Further suggested that it may have been related to the ancient village of Olbia. This settlement was the seat of a Bishopric during the Byzantine period in classical Libya. The city was attacked several times by various invaders but it was however restored to its glory by the Byzantine emperor Justinian in 539 AD. Qasr Libya is mainly known for its 6th century Byzantine church with a stunning mosaic floor panels widely viewed as some of the world’s finest examples. The theme is mainly mythical representation of the various spiritual beings of the pre-Roman era as well as those of Christian symbolism strongly indicating a time when both Paganism and Christianity were equally tolerated. The mosaic floor was discovered in 1957 by some labourers working.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/qasr-libya-libya-castle


quote:
Slontah Temple


Slonta temple is a small ancient Libyan temple dating to the period before the Greek occupation. Therefore one can safely associate the cave of Slontah with the indigenous Berber culture. Slontah Temple is located about 24 km south of al-Bayda high hidden in the Green Mountain’s groves. The Slontah structure incorporates a local architecture unique to the area consisting of a low semicircular entrance with cylindrical columns in the middle of the cave.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/slontah-temple


quote:


The Big Hole of Cyrene


Not much is known about this massive hole in the ground. There are those who say the hole was used as an ammunition dump during the two world wars. Some people believe the Big Hole of Cyrene is in effect a vertical cave represents what is known as Cave Geology and that the sides of the hole show that they were previously subjected to water or wind scouring. There are also similar holes exist around the world like the Golondrinas in Mexico (350 meters deep), and the Gaping Ghyll in England (50 meters deep). The place is located near Cyrene and is locally known as Haw Hajyre. The area is not fenced and it is possible the hole is full of skeletons of stray animals and the like. The depth of the hole is not known and throwing a stone in the hole return no echoes.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/the-big-hole-of-cyrene


quote:
Tokra


Tokra is a small village in Eastern Libya, located about 70 kilometres east of Benghazi city. Tokra was one of the five cities of the Greek Pentapolis. The village suitably located between the mountains and the sea is a wonderful Libyan village providing breathtaking scenery and landscape. According to archaeologists the village is a good example of how a modest Libyan (Berber) settlement would have looked like and how the majority of ancient locals would have lived. Tokra was an important export port during the Greek period which became a busy commercial centre after falling under Roman influence during the fist century BC. The city began to loose it’s status during the Byzantine period.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/tokra


quote:
Tolmeitha


The port of Tolmeitha is generally know as Ptolemais. The village is located in a beautiful area between the Green Mountain and the sea about 30 km east of Breqa. It was founded as port to serve Almerj(Brega) after it became a busy commercial centre during the sixth century BC with goods arriving from the nearby ports such as Alexandria port in Egypt as well as to export the main produce of the region such as silphium, honey, butter and grains.


Tolmeitha rose to fame so quickly and became the capital of Cyrenaica during the 4th and 5th centuries AD. Historical records show that the port was originally called “Berqa Port” which also indicates the existence of the site before the Greek invasions after which it became known as Ptolemais. Places of interest include the two gate towers of Tocra Gate, the theatre, the stadium, the Basilica, the Roman Villa of Columns and the museum of Tolmeita. This museum houses a number of statues, stones, and a small collection of mosaics. Also there are several marble tablets showing various records of the main historical events of the town as well as some price lists. Ptolemais also provides a unique experience to tourists namely the descent to a large complex of underground cisterns under the agora. The capacity of this system of cisterns was said to be 6 million litres of water, originally maintained via a 25 kilometre long aqueduct.

Ptolemais Museum houses a number of archaeological treasures and ruins that were found in the region such as statues, including those of the Libyan Medusa and Cleopatra, columns, tablets, burial and funerary objects and several mosaic floors, from the Punic, Greek, Roman and Byzantine periods. One of the most unique exhibits of the museum and of historical importance, is a price tablet showing prices of goods in the Roman empire dating to the 301 AD. The museum was originally a store house used during the Italian occupation in which a number of archaeological artifacts ended up for storage and most of which still are to this day piled up in its store rooms. The store house was turned into a museum in 1960. Some of the finds are actually still outside the museum with no protection from the elements whatsoever.

http://tourslibya.com/sights/tolmeitha
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.

Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.

I do find this especially interesting, because here is where the first actual recorded colonization of Africa begins. As it spread from there to other parts of Africa, over time.


More:

quote:


Tripolitania


Tripolitania, Arabic Ṭarābulus, historical region of North Africa that now forms the northwestern part of Libya.
In the 7th century bc three Phoenician colonies were established on the shores of the Gulf of Sidra, which was originally inhabited by a Berber-speaking people. These cities; Labqi (Leptis Magna), Oea (Tripoli), and Sabratah (Ṣabratha), later formed the eastern province of the Carthaginian state and account for the late Roman name Tripolitania. On the fall of Carthage in 146 bc, Tripolitania became subject to Numidian princes. After the Numidian War (46 bc), it was attached to the Roman province of Africa Nova.

The Roman emperor Septimius Severus(reigned ad 193–211) was himself originally a citizen of Leptis and endowed that city with magnificent buildings during his reign. The Vandals seized Tripolitania in 435 but were ousted by the Byzantine Greeks under the leadership of Belisarius in 534.

In 643 the Arabs took Tripoli and sacked Leptis and Sabratha, but they were unable to subdue Berber resistance in the interior for another 60 years. After a period of direct Arab rule from Damascus, Tripolitania became subject to various Arab and Berber dynasties, among them the Aghlabids (9th century), the Faṭimids (10th century), and the Ḥafṣids (14th century). In 1510 Tripoli was captured by the forces of Ferdinand the Catholic of Spain, who turned it over to the Knights of St. John in 1530. The latter lost the region in 1551 to the Ottoman Turks, who ruled it either directly or through suzerains for the next 360 years. In 1711 the local governor, Aḥmad Karamanli, won recognition from the Ottomans as hereditary pasha (governor), and his dynasty ruled Tripolitania for all but a few years until 1835.

Under the Karamanli rulers, Tripoli levied tribute on and plundered shipping in the Mediterranean, a practice that led to the Tripolitan War with the United States in 1801–05. In 1835 Ottoman Turkey resumed direct rule of Tripolitania in an effort to forestall further French expansion in North Africa.

As a result of the Italo-Turkish War of 1911–12, the Italians occupied Tripoli in 1911 and acquired all of Tripolitania from Turkey in 1912. Together with Cyrenaica and Fezzan, Tripolitania was incorporated into the kingdom of Italy in 1939. Tripolitania was the scene of fierce fighting between British and German armoured forces in 1942 during World War II. The three provinces of Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, and Fezzan subsequently formed the independent federal kingdom of Libya when it was created in 1951. These regions were administratively abolished in 1963, when Libya became a unitary state.


http://tourslibya.com/tripolitania/
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.

Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.

I do find this especially interesting, because here is where the first actual recorded colonization of Africa begins. As it spread from there to other parts of Africa, over time.


More:

quote:


Tripolitania


Tripolitania, Arabic Ṭarābulus, historical region of North Africa that now forms the northwestern part of Libya.
In the 7th century bc three Phoenician colonies were established on the shores of the Gulf of Sidra, which was originally inhabited by a Berber-speaking people. These cities; Labqi (Leptis Magna), Oea (Tripoli), and Sabratah (Ṣabratha), later formed the eastern province of the Carthaginian state and account for the late Roman name Tripolitania. On the fall of Carthage in 146 bc, Tripolitania became subject to Numidian princes. After the Numidian War (46 bc), it was attached to the Roman province of Africa Nova.

The Roman emperor Septimius Severus(reigned ad 193–211) was himself originally a citizen of Leptis and endowed that city with magnificent buildings during his reign. The Vandals seized Tripolitania in 435 but were ousted by the Byzantine Greeks under the leadership of Belisarius in 534.

In 643 the Arabs took Tripoli and sacked Leptis and Sabratha, but they were unable to subdue Berber resistance in the interior for another 60 years. After a period of direct Arab rule from Damascus, Tripolitania became subject to various Arab and Berber dynasties, among them the Aghlabids (9th century), the Faṭimids (10th century), and the Ḥafṣids (14th century). In 1510 Tripoli was captured by the forces of Ferdinand the Catholic of Spain, who turned it over to the Knights of St. John in 1530. The latter lost the region in 1551 to the Ottoman Turks, who ruled it either directly or through suzerains for the next 360 years. In 1711 the local governor, Aḥmad Karamanli, won recognition from the Ottomans as hereditary pasha (governor), and his dynasty ruled Tripolitania for all but a few years until 1835.

Under the Karamanli rulers, Tripoli levied tribute on and plundered shipping in the Mediterranean, a practice that led to the Tripolitan War with the United States in 1801–05. In 1835 Ottoman Turkey resumed direct rule of Tripolitania in an effort to forestall further French expansion in North Africa.

As a result of the Italo-Turkish War of 1911–12, the Italians occupied Tripoli in 1911 and acquired all of Tripolitania from Turkey in 1912. Together with Cyrenaica and Fezzan, Tripolitania was incorporated into the kingdom of Italy in 1939. Tripolitania was the scene of fierce fighting between British and German armoured forces in 1942 during World War II. The three provinces of Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, and Fezzan subsequently formed the independent federal kingdom of Libya when it was created in 1951. These regions were administratively abolished in 1963, when Libya became a unitary state.


http://tourslibya.com/tripolitania/

So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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This thing gets easier. I just need to change the id name now.

Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, typeZeiss , etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color

quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?

Racist-->check
Pretend to be black-->check
prefer to talk about skin color-->check

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
This thing gets easier. I just need to change the id name now.

Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, typeZeiss , etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color

quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?

Racist-->check
Pretend to be black-->check
prefer to talk about skin color-->check

I am going to go out on a limb and venture to say you either A. are not a native English speaker, and you don’t understand what the words “racist” and by extension “racism” mean, or B. you are a product of a very dismal education system. Either way, let me take this time out to educate your ignorant @ss.

Racist:
An advocate or supporter of racism; a person whose words or actions display racial prejudice or discrimination. Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities.

Racism:
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occas. in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities.

Not once did I espouse racist views or opinions. But, you are the same inane minded person who declared I am not black, which is comical to say the least. I would also add it is stereotyping, as you are attempting to dictate what black people should be talking about or thinking, and if they don't you resort to childish name calling. You must be from the West. We see Western Governments indulging in this same sort of deviant behavior all the time. They label political leaders, who do not share their views, with meaningless names and bestowing daft titles upon them, to try and further some hidden agenda.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^You've been exposed. It's too late now. Posting definitions of racism doesn't do any good. Basically, you're doing the same stupid **** as Mike111 on the Ancient Egypt forum.

Another one.

Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti , typeZeiss, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".

Racist-->check
Pretend to be black-->check
prefer to talk about skin color or geography-->check

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^You've been exposed. It's too late now. Posting definitions of racism doesn't do any good. Basically, you're doing the same stupid **** as Mike111 on the Ancient Egypt forum.

Another one.

Let's review my post above, with the new facts from this thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti , typeZeiss, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists ) prefer to talk only about skin color

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".

Racist-->check
Pretend to be black-->check
prefer to talk about skin color or geography-->check

*smirk* oh
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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.


. . . .


So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.

.


I'm having a hard time not
saying ARtU is a snivelling
piece of **** liar
but try
to console myself knowing
that in 9 years and 7 months
on ES never once have I said
Maghrebis or even central to
west Saharans are Black Africans.
I don't even use the term Black
Africa(ns) (link)
.

I don't like it. It's stupid and
no other continent is broken
down by colour.

No White Europe.
No Yellow Asia.
Only Black Africa.

Hence my caustic coinage of
White Europe and Olive Europe.

Long time back I disagreed with
ARtU on some point or other and
since then his emotions run away
with him, poor fellow.

Whenever I post something ARtU's
knee jerk reflex reaction is to go
ad hominem and outright lie.


For example after I post

  • South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah
    we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab"
    Saharans white
    but we totally separate them
    from a category that includes most Spaniards,
    Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all
    British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central
    Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
ARtU lies about it and says I
call iMazighen Black African.
Totally preposterous. ARtU's
problem is obvious, his head's
stuck up his ass, ergo his
excuse for brain cells have
suffocated from the gas.

African Heritage is inclusive
of all autochthonous/indigenous
Africans.


TC is an ES vet. He was here
already when I got here and
has paid his dues over again
with useful info insights but
as a non-African is best to
not paternally lecture us on
what is or is not our heritage.
That was way way out of line.
I respect his right to his own
opinions but he should go and
should caution his own people
to not identify Olive Europe
as European heritage.

As far as it goes for white
people of ARtU's ilk
? Well ...
who could be more fake than
a person afraid to declare
their ethnicity and copping
the moniker of AE's greatest
compound nTr then declaring
himself ultimate? I'll leave
DJ to diagnose that psychosis.

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Tukuler
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Here is the actual figure F1 from Tishkoff et al., 2009, Science 324, 1035–1044

 -

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:



So, if I am following you correctly, you are attributing white skinned North Africans, in Libya to Italian, Turkish and though you haven't, I would add European slaves influx through out the centuries?

Did you read the post prior to this one?


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=5#000206

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.


. . . .


So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.

.


I'm having a hard time not
saying ARtU is a snivelling
piece of **** liar
but try
to console myself knowing
that in 9 years and 7 months
on ES never once have I said
Maghrebis or even central to
west Saharans are Black Africans.
I don't even use the term Black
Africa(ns) (link)
.


.


quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


* Tunisia is primarily African
* S Maroc is primarily African
* W Sahara is primarily African
* Algeria is primarily African
* N Maroc is primarily African.




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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

Other subgroups Zuwara AMAZIGH and Gharyan AMAZIGH

And ironically the majority of the population is described as Arab-Berber? According to this map.

What could this, or rather, what does this imply?


 -

The implication is obvious. Libya, like Egypt, has been Arabized. Thus the indigenous Berber population has mixed heavily with the Arab invaders and/or been assimilated by them! The areas labeled as Berber only are the areas where Berbers have been least affected by Arabization.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Berbers of Libya.

Ghadamès
http://www.pascalmeunier.com/data/19_autres_reportages/16-libye_ghadames.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7185/6926938154_02734ef975_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/20/73149292_3828b07d0a_z.jpg


Unesco


Old Town of Ghadamès (UNESCO/NHK)


https://youtube.com/watch?v=LCVldQzjyRY


quote:
Long Description
Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC.
Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions.
The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls.
The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men.
Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.

Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/362/
Man TP, this post inspired me to post about what happened in Turkey...To think people can't feel for the next man...Be they musilm or not is sad but Your post made me get that fire I needed to post it. Interesting post.

Peace

The Ghadama Berbers are the most politically prominent of the Berber tribes. The branch of Ghadama that has been Arabized is known as Gaddafa from whom the late Muammar Qaddafi descends.

Then there is the Nafusa tribe of Jebel Nafusa in Tripolitania.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

The Zuwara tribe

 -

 -

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Djehuti
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^^Awjila tribe whose language is most closely related to the Siwa of Egypt.

https://flic.kr/p/cENu7

https://flic.kr/p/cENy6

https://flic.kr/p/cENBE

https://flic.kr/p/cENv7

https://flic.kr/p/cENRj

https://flic.kr/p/cEN3g

https://flic.kr/p/cEMK9


Libyans as described by European Explorer George Francis Lyon (1795-1832):

Morzouk is a walled town, containing about 2500 inhabitants, who are blacks, and who do not, like the Arabs, change their residence. . . . The town has seven gates, four of which are built up in order to prevent the people escaping when they are required to pay their duties. A man is appointed by the Sultan to attend each of these gates, day and night, lest any slaves or merchandize should be smuggled into the town. . . . Many palms grow in the town. . . . The street of entrance is a broad space of at least a hundred yards, leading to the wall that surrounds the castle, and is extremely pretty: here the horsemen have full scope to display their abilities when they skirmish before the Sultan. The castle itself is an immense mud building, rising to the height of eighty or ninety feet, with little battlements on the walls (a fancy of the present Sultan’s); and at a distance looks warlike. Like all the other buildings, it has no pretensions to regularity: the lower walls are fifty or sixty feet in thickness; the upper taper off to about four or five feet. In consequence of the immense mass of wall, the apartments are very small, and few in number. The rooms occupied by the Sultan are of the best quality, (that is to say, comparatively), for the walls are tolerably smooth, and white-washed, and have ornamental daubs of red paint in blotches, by way of effect. His couch is spread on the ground, and his visitors squat down on the sandy floor at a respectful distance; we, however, were always honoured by having a corner of the carpet offered to us.

 -

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.


. . . .


So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.

.


I'm having a hard time not
saying ARtU is a snivelling
piece of **** liar
but try
to console myself knowing
that in 9 years and 7 months
on ES never once have I said
Maghrebis or even central to
west Saharans are Black Africans.
I don't even use the term Black
Africa(ns) (link)
.

I don't like it. It's stupid and
no other continent is broken
down by colour.

No White Europe.
No Yellow Asia.
Only Black Africa.

Hence my caustic coinage of
White Europe and Olive Europe.

Long time back I disagreed with
ARtU on some point or other and
since then his emotions run away
with him, poor fellow.

Whenever I post something ARtU's
knee jerk reflex reaction is to go
ad hominem and outright lie.


For example after I post

  • South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah
    we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab"
    Saharans white
    but we totally separate them
    from a category that includes most Spaniards,
    Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all
    British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central
    Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
ARtU lies about it and says I
call iMazighen Black African.
Totally preposterous. ARtU's
problem is obvious, his head's
stuck up his ass, ergo his
excuse for brain cells have
suffocated from the gas.

African Heritage is inclusive
of all autochthonous/indigenous
Africans.


TC is an ES vet. He was here
already when I got here and
has paid his dues over again
with useful info insights but
as a non-African is best to
not paternally lecture us on
what is or is not our heritage.
That was way way out of line.
I respect his right to his own
opinions but he should go and
should caution his own people
to not identify Olive Europe
as European heritage.

As far as it goes for white
people of ARtU's ilk
? Well ...
who could be more fake than
a person afraid to declare
their ethnicity and copping
the moniker of AE's greatest
compound nTr then declaring
himself ultimate? I'll leave
DJ to diagnose that psychosis. [/QB]

LOL [Big Grin]

Well I'm no psychologist and as I said on another thread I don't know what neurosis ARtU has, but he obviously has issues. And he has got some nerve to go on an ad-hominem attack against us! Nowhere have I claimed I was black African. In fact I have always been adamant about my Asian ancestry yet note that he even questions that! [Eek!] I owe him or anybody in this forum NOTHING in regards to my identity as such is irrelevant when it comes to the discussions we have in this forum, yet for some reason our identities or what he thinks of them causes some issue with him. Note how he leaves out lyinass in his list of "undercover racists" which makes me question his genuineness if not his sanity.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^^You're not "Asian" either, you're not even a descent person, you're just a stupid racist. I will continue to judge you by your posts and I hope people keep their eyes open for idiots like you.

Idiots like him are nothing but a different version of Mike111 in Ancient Egypt.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).

1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc)
2- Declare them African, black or whatever
3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.

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Son of Ra
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I think Amun-Ra is just a Bantu supremacist which is why he is making these accusations. Most Bantu supremacist sound exactly like how he sounds.

When have Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti made the claims you stated? And I agree 100% with Tukuler that "black African" itself is a bias term.

And what Caucasian admixed population in Africa are you talking about?

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).

1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc)
2- Declare them African, black or whatever
3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I think Amun-Ra is just a Bantu supremacist which is why he is making these accusations. Most Bantu supremacist sound exactly like how he sounds.

When have Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti made the claims you stated? And I agree 100% with Tukuler that "black African" itself is a bias term.

And what Caucasian admixed population in Africa are you talking about?

He's a complete idiot. He has the IQ of a peanut.
Google his name and you'll find some of his posts.
He makes the most retarded posts. That's why I
reply to him the way I do. The fruit basket is
obviously mentally challenged.

This is the type of intellectual threads he makes:

quote:
To Beat Boko Haram Nigeria Needs 3 Things by AmunRaOlodumare: 8:00pm On Apr 25
1) Better intelligence services
2) Better police
3) Better army

The last 2 are obvious but I think the first one is too much neglected for now and for the future.

http://www.nairaland.com/1718073/beat-boko-haram-nigeria-needs

No sh!t, Captain Obvious. That was really profound.
The Nigerians couldn't figure that out by themselves!
Your ground-breaking epiphanies really warranted
creating that thread.

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Tukuler
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No sweat DJ

You were here when I got here.
You're one of the vets, you know,
one of the people who made ES AE&E
the renowned premier forum that
attracted people because of its
iconoclasm and new paradigm
breaking reading.

Without folks like you there'd
be no ES forum for folks like
him to come to. Let him hang
himself with his own rope. But
what of ES members who've
benefitted from all our efforts?
Why are they silent to him not
blunting his groundless accusations?


Baal Hhamsa!
 -


Still, you owe me some mythology,
one of your fortes, on Shemsu Ash. [Cool]


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part.


. . . .


So I don't find it surprising that people like Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti, etc (who are not even black Africans btw, they are undercover racists) prefer to talk only about skin color or geography.

.


I'm having a hard time not
saying ARtU is a snivelling
piece of **** liar
but try
to console myself knowing
that in 9 years and 7 months
on ES never once have I said
Maghrebis or even central to
west Saharans are Black Africans.
I don't even use the term Black
Africa(ns) (link)
.

I don't like it. It's stupid and
no other continent is broken
down by colour.

No White Europe.
No Yellow Asia.
Only Black Africa.

Hence my caustic coinage of
White Europe and Olive Europe.

Long time back I disagreed with
ARtU on some point or other and
since then his emotions run away
with him, poor fellow.

Whenever I post something ARtU's
knee jerk reflex reaction is to go
ad hominem and outright lie.


For example after I post

  • South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah
    we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab"
    Saharans white
    but we totally separate them
    from a category that includes most Spaniards,
    Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all
    British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central
    Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
ARtU lies about it and says I
call iMazighen Black African.
Totally preposterous. ARtU's
problem is obvious, his head's
stuck up his ass, ergo his
excuse for brain cells have
suffocated from the gas.

African Heritage is inclusive
of all autochthonous/indigenous
Africans.


TC is an ES vet. He was here
already when I got here and
has paid his dues over again
with useful info insights but
as a non-African is best to
not paternally lecture us on
what is or is not our heritage.
That was way way out of line.
I respect his right to his own
opinions but he should go and
should caution his own people
to not identify Olive Europe
as European heritage.

As far as it goes for white
people of ARtU's ilk
? Well ...
who could be more fake than
a person afraid to declare
their ethnicity and copping
the moniker of AE's greatest
compound nTr then declaring
himself ultimate? I'll leave
DJ to diagnose that psychosis.

LOL [Big Grin]

Well I'm no psychologist and as I said on another thread I don't know what neurosis ARtU has, but he obviously has issues. And he has got some nerve to go on an ad-hominem attack against us! Nowhere have I claimed I was black African. In fact I have always been adamant about my Asian ancestry yet note that he even questions that! [Eek!] I owe him or anybody in this forum NOTHING in regards to my identity as such is irrelevant when it comes to the discussions we have in this forum, yet for some reason our identities or what he thinks of them causes some issue with him. Note how he leaves out lyinass in his list of "undercover racists" which makes me question his genuineness if not his sanity. [/QB]


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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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What they are trying to avoid:

I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).

1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc)
2- Declare them African, black or whatever
3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians. [/QB]

please list three examples of shared history and/or culture between West Africans and ancient Egyptians
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).

Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
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typeZeiss
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Nice video of Tamashek people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPGRanrzMnY
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).

Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.
LMAO [Big Grin] Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!

I bet I can actually name more specific West African customs than you, and not general customs which are found all over the continent!

quote:
Amun-Ra The Ultimate wrote:

What they are trying to avoid:

I hope people can see what Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti and other racists are trying to do here on this forum in general. It's the same trickery used by horn supremacists before (probably from the same people).

1- They find a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc)
2- Declare them African, black or whatever
3- Then claim Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people. It's like there's 2 races of African or something. Then it's just a etymological trickery about what we call African, not truly about the shared heritage (history, culture, origins, etc) of African people and Ancient Egyptians.

So why don't you provide actual examples of I or others doing the above! Quote actual posts where we say such things!!
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

I think Amun-Ra is just a Bantu supremacist which is why he is making these accusations. Most Bantu supremacist sound exactly like how he sounds.

When have Tukuler, Swenet, Djehuti made the claims you stated? And I agree 100% with Tukuler that "black African" itself is a bias term.

And what Caucasian admixed population in Africa are you talking about?

LOL [Big Grin] Why not? We've had Horner supremacists in the past whom we soundly debunked. I knew it would be a matter of time before (another) Bantu-supremacist would show up.

I still await for Amun-Ra to provide evidence of our (Tukuler, Swenet, and my) guilt of the things he accuses us of. [Embarrassed]

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the lioness,
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I haven't read the entries yet but I google searched "bantu supremacist" and got 8 results

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22+Bantu+supremacist%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
So why don't you provide actual examples of I or others doing the above! Quote actual posts where we say such things!!

I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).

Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.

LMAO [Big Grin] Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!

You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.

We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
So why don't you provide actual examples of I or others doing the above! Quote actual posts where we say such things!!

I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).

Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.

LMAO [Big Grin] Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!

You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.

We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.

What is your contention in relation to Kush/Kemet and West Africa? From my research it would seem that they all share a common ancestry i.e. whatever they were doing in the Sahara prior to moving into West African areas and Nile Valley. This movement west seems to start around 3,000 BCE for Mande speaking peoples and maybe a little earlier for those groups that found their way into the Nile Valley. I believe it was later for the western saharan groups because the western sahara went hyper arid a bit later than the eastern sahara.

Another interesting to note is the almost exclusive use of adobe for home building in Kush/Kemet and among certain mande groups. Although, stone building for homes among Mandes is not uncommon as can be seen it Tichett and in Sierra Leone where the government of the Southern reach of the Mande empire as it stretched to Cote d'Ivore, Liberia and Sierra Leone as found in of Sierra Leone were also built from very similar construction as is found in Tichett. Makes me believe that Mandes, when given the availability of resources build in stone, and when resources aren't available, they build in Adobe.

Either way, there is definitely a clear relationship between Kemet/Kush and West Africa, this is undeniable. This isn't to take away from the fact that I also believe there were migrations through out the centuries from the Nile Valley into West Africa, as some groups have historical records of migrating from the east, such as some Fulas, Temnes etc. Ignorant westerners like to paint Africa and certain, so called ethnic groups, with one brush, and this doesn't work. As these groups are not homogenous. For example, certain western Yoruba are actually Mande, but they were absorbed into a Yoruba kingdom. My point in saying that is, just because someone is called Mande today, doesn't mean he has the same origin as the wider group, as peoples were absorbed. In Sierra Leone, a lot of the Mende people are short, and this is because upon arrival, Mande people absorbed the Pigmy population which lived there originally.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Another interesting to note is the almost exclusive use of adobe for home building in Kush/Kemet and among certain mande groups. Although, stone building for homes among Mandes is not uncommon as can be seen it Tichett and in Sierra Leone where the government of the Southern reach of the Mande empire as it stretched to Cote d'Ivore, Liberia and Sierra Leone as found in of Sierra Leone were also built from very similar construction as is found in Tichett. Makes me believe that Mandes, when given the availability of resources build in stone, and when resources aren't available, they build in Adobe.

Either way, there is definitely a clear relationship between Kemet/Kush and West Africa, this is undeniable. This isn't to take away from the fact that I also believe there were migrations through out the centuries from the Nile Valley into West Africa, as some groups have historical records of migrating from the east, such as some Fulas, Temnes etc. Ignorant westerners like to paint Africa and certain, so called ethnic groups, with one brush, and this doesn't work. As these groups are not homogenous. For example, certain western Yoruba are actually Mande, but they were absorbed into a Yoruba kingdom. My point in saying that is, just because someone is called Mande today, doesn't mean he has the same origin as the wider group, as peoples were absorbed. In Sierra Leone, a lot of the Mende people are short, and this is because upon arrival, Mande people absorbed the Pigmy population which lived there originally.

The reality of "Migration" has to be a key factor in any study of ancient Africa.

.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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Yes, Ancient Egyptians and African populations share a common origin somewhere in (North-) Eastern Africa. You can see it genetically and linguistically (common geographic origin of African languages in Eastern Africa). This at a time period post-dating the Out of Africa migration.

 -
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)

The most probable origin areas of each African families lay within regions in or adjacent to the Horn of Africa.

There's also a lot of admixtures between African populations throughout history. This combined effect of common origin and admixture is why African populations cluster together in term of genetic distances. It's also why they share a lot cultural similarities. It's a similar thing for other populations too like Europeans, East Asians, Native Americans. Who tend to cluster together too (due to common origin and regional admixture).

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Another interesting to note is the almost exclusive use of adobe for home building in Kush/Kemet and among certain mande groups. Although, stone building for homes among Mandes is not uncommon as can be seen it Tichett and in Sierra Leone where the government of the Southern reach of the Mande empire as it stretched to Cote d'Ivore, Liberia and Sierra Leone as found in of Sierra Leone were also built from very similar construction as is found in Tichett. Makes me believe that Mandes, when given the availability of resources build in stone, and when resources aren't available, they build in Adobe.

Either way, there is definitely a clear relationship between Kemet/Kush and West Africa, this is undeniable. This isn't to take away from the fact that I also believe there were migrations through out the centuries from the Nile Valley into West Africa, as some groups have historical records of migrating from the east, such as some Fulas, Temnes etc. Ignorant westerners like to paint Africa and certain, so called ethnic groups, with one brush, and this doesn't work. As these groups are not homogenous. For example, certain western Yoruba are actually Mande, but they were absorbed into a Yoruba kingdom. My point in saying that is, just because someone is called Mande today, doesn't mean he has the same origin as the wider group, as peoples were absorbed. In Sierra Leone, a lot of the Mende people are short, and this is because upon arrival, Mande people absorbed the Pigmy population which lived there originally.

The reality of "Migration" has to be a key factor in any study of ancient Africa.

.

of course! I mean the great Mande empires start rather later (not including Ghana and its forerunner which starts around 3,000 BCE in Tichett), because Mande's hadn't moved further south yet. The key is to understand desertification of the Sahara, which caused northern populations to move south, east, west and even north. Then there were subsequent expansions, which are political in nature i.e. conquering of land.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

I wasn't going to respond to you, since I just want people to keep their eyes open in the future for undercover racists on this forum by analysing (future) posts they read. But since you make it so easy, by including an example of it in the same post, here's one example:


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).

Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

- The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

Everything in this could be considered. Divine Kingship, headrests, body arts, rituals, etc. As well as the shared origin and history in (North-)Eastern Africa and the green Sahara.

LMAO [Big Grin] Apparently you don't realize that the source you cited was speaking largely of Sudanese cultures i.e. successors of the Khartoum Mesolithic, and nowhere did it say anything about West African cultures!

You're lying here. The author says:"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..". All of those, including divine kingship, headrests, body art, rituals, etc can indeed be seen all over Africa including West Africa.
I know perfectly well what the author Donald Redford said, but apparently YOU don't! Of course some of the features like divine kingship and headrests are general features found all throughout Africa including West Africa but also East Africa as well!! In fact, the exact forms of headrests and divine-kingship resemble East Africans much more than West Africa. The specific cultural traits are northeast African and Redford specifically states they are of *Sudanese* Khartoum Mesolithic derived assemblage like wavy dotted pottery and harpoons and later Tasian and Badarian cultures.

Nowhere did he list specific West African cultures, not that there are no connections to West Africa since the Egyptians do have some ancestry from the Central Sahara as do some West Africans! I asked you name cultural traits the Egyptians possessed that were specific to West Africans, but you have only listed general traits that East Africans have as well and are actually closer to East Africans! I'm still waiting for you to give an accurate answer. And again I bet you that I can provide more specific West African traits in Egyptian culture that are NOT found in East Africans than YOU which would then refute your LIE that I sever any ties between Egypt and West Africa!!

quote:
We all can see in this example how this racist idiot called Djehuti is trying to disconnect, West Africa from Ancient Egyptians and the rest of Africa and African cultures. He's more concerned about connecting them to the Levant, West Asia, the Horn, etc aka proxy Eurasian populations. Typical move by undercover racists seeking to prove the dynastic race theory by using proxy Eurasian populations. They used to pose before as horn supremacists.
LOL [Big Grin] And again, nowhere do I deny West Africa's connection to Egypt via the Central Sahara as I just explained above!! The fact of the matter though is that Egypt is in northeast Africa and has far greater affinities with other northeast African cultures! Also when have I ever espoused or supported the long DEBUNKED "dynastic race" theory?!! Show me where I have ever tried to connect Egypt with Eurasian populations??! Note that the Horn is in AFRICA and not Eurasia! LOL [Big Grin]

Please find evidence of my guilt in the following:

1- finding a proxy caucasian populations in Africa (admixed, back migrations, etc)
2- Declaring them African, black or whatever
3- Then claiming Ancient Egyptians are closer to them but not to other Africans like West Africans or Great Lakes people.

I'm still waiting Amanutcase-theUltimate for either evidence of your accusations or an APOLOGY. Because I don't take kindly to liars!! [Embarrassed]

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanutcase The Ultimate:

Yes, Ancient Egyptians and African populations share a common origin somewhere in (North-) Eastern Africa. You can see it genetically and linguistically (common geographic origin of African languages in Eastern Africa). This at a time period post-dating the Out of Africa migration.


 -
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)

The most probable origin areas of each African families lay within regions in or adjacent to the Horn of Africa.

Yes, I've cited Ehret many times before on this, but didn't YOU yourself say the Horn is inhabited by Eurasian populations?! [Roll Eyes]

quote:
There's also a lot of admixtures between African populations throughout history. This combined effect of common origin and admixture is why African populations cluster together in term of genetic distances. It's also why they share a lot cultural similarities. It's a similar thing for other populations too like Europeans, East Asians, Native Americans. Who tend to cluster together too (due to common origin and regional admixture).
Of course, in fact unlike Eurasia where there are a lot of mountains and other geological features that act as barriers to gene-flow, Africa has very few mountains or any barriers which is why there has been constant gene-flow between African populations hence PN2 spans the whole continent. Even the Sahara wasn't a complete barrier since there are oases and aquifers that served as sources of water and even then the Sahara did not always exist as there were wet periods. Note some of this gene-flow even spilled out into Eurasia such as into the Levant and the introduction of pre-proto-Semitic and even into the Mediterranean into Southern Europe which is why Europeans are African-mixed etc.

I and others have always maintained these FACTS yet you accuse us of trying to white-wash or Eurasianize Egyptians! [Eek!] Why is that???

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the lioness,
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.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.





.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.





.

Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:



Thanks for your posts, I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.





.

Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya, and those populations which they did not know the name of, the simply referred to them as Ethiopians. If they knew the name of the polity then they called them by the name of the polity like Garma for example. They did the same in Europe by calling populations they were unfamiliar with, who were white by the name "Sycthian" these are catch all phrases.
A short but powerful explanation.


Thanks.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] .


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.





.

Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
I'm going to invest some time in reading on the history of ancient Libya and her colonies. To see what has actually happened.

quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything.

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
A short but powerful explanation.


Thanks.


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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] .


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.





.

Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
Can you elaborate...


Thanks in advance.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] .


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.





.

Using the word "Libyan" doesn't mean anything. Greeks called the WHOLE of Africa Libya,
it's the speaker's intent that is pertninant, his intent was to define a region, corresponding the lands of the Tjehenu or Tjemehu , etc Libyan tribes as per the Egyptians, oases regions in the Western Desert, people who were constantly trying to invade and settle in the Nile delta, rather than a Greek definition or something "meaningless"
Ok, but you using the term "Libya" is inappropriate here, as it is not a word that was used by the Egyptians themselves. Libya was specifically use by Greeks and later Romans to describe ALL of Africa. Your use of the word gives a very false interpretation of that word. It also serves to obscure the facts. In this particular instance, with your using the word in this way, it does become meaningless. You are trying to attribute specific things to a specific group of people by a generic term that was applied to a entire continent filled with various ethnic groups. It would be like trying to discuss Native Americans, yet discussing them by the term "Americans". The question then comes, well which Americans? African Americans, European Americans, Hispanic Americans, etc. etc.

The Tjehenu have been associated, possibly with Fulas, as the Egyptian depictions seem to have a similar style of dress and hair styles, that can still be found among the Fulas to this day. What is interesting to note is, a certain group of Fulas have male European DNA, not in high amounts, but its there none the less. It is assumed that it may have been introduced by white slaves in Africa.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Some of the people who holds the theory that these early Delta inhabitants were Libyans is ME. I base this on archaeological as well as historic evidence which I will soon present on a thread Takruri created a while back.


quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Ok, but you using the term "Libya" is inappropriate here, as it is not a word that was used by the Egyptians themselves.

Every Egyptologist in the world uses the term "Libyan".
Every book you own on Egypt uses the term Libyan, Diop etc

Let's not get into semantics, you just used the word "Egyptian"
That is not a word the ancient KMTs called themselves

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