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Author Topic: The 'Average' Northwest African Phenotype/Origins of Northwest Africans
Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?

The Berbers did not come from East Africa

The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West.
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) a important oasis of the Morocco
)

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.

Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.

Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?

It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there. [Big Grin]


I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.

Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.

Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?

It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there. [Big Grin]


I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
[Roll Eyes]

I'm sorry, that you've mist it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000277


 -

[Big Grin]

Ps, you've skipped this one as well.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000298


 -

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?

The Berbers did not come from East Africa

The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West.
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) a important oasis of the Morocco
)

Berbers in mutations are certainly from Northwest Africa. But eventually, the root clades are East African.


You yourself posted this:

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Aterian culture is related to the Sangoan culture. I have discussed how L3(M,N) was probably spread to North and West Africa by the Sangoan population. The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (Phillipson,2005). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd and haplotype AF-24 in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. This is because it was not until 65kya that the TMRCA of non-African L3(M,N) exited Africa (Kivisild et al, 2006).


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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
How can Berber language have a close connection with Vandal when Berber language came from East Africa and was in North Africa prior to the Vandals?

The Berbers did not come from East Africa

The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West.
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) a important oasis of the Morocco
)

Berbers in mutations are certainly from Northwest Africa. But eventually, the root clades are East African.


You yourself posted this:

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Aterian culture is related to the Sangoan culture. I have discussed how L3(M,N) was probably spread to North and West Africa by the Sangoan population. The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (Phillipson,2005). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd and haplotype AF-24 in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. This is because it was not until 65kya that the TMRCA of non-African L3(M,N) exited Africa (Kivisild et al, 2006).


Correct. Naturally the people would have lived in North Africa, but the contemporary Berbers did not come from East Africa. As pointed out above the Tuareg and Amazigh claim they originated in the West.

The Sangoan began I believe in Southern Africa and expanded into North Africa. I believe that the bearers of this culture were the Khoisan people.
.

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xyyman
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Quote from the study:

]The presence of both A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade, suggesting A PRE-NEOLITHIC MIGRATION FROM NORTH AFRICA.[/b] to Iberia.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish
The Sangoan began I believe in Southern Africa and expanded into North Africa. I believe that the bearers of this culture were the Khoisan people.
.


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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.

Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.

Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?

It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there. [Big Grin]


I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
[Roll Eyes]

I'm sorry, that you've missed it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000277


 -

[Big Grin]

Ps, you've skipped this one as well.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000298


 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.

Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.

Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?

It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there. [Big Grin]


I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
[Roll Eyes]

I'm sorry, that you've missed it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000277

quote:


The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms

S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied


http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2010.490241

 -


quote:




I didn't miss anything
Stop being repettiious, you are unable to name any specific haplogroups which might represent a Vandal migration to North Africa because you are quoting a pay per view Frigi/Ennafaa article which you don't have full access to.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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I'm not surprised to see those undercover racists on this forum still go on and on about their proxy eurasian populations in Africa. That is populations that are admixed with Eurasian to a significant degree or populations representing the back migration of Eurasians into Africa. They are only fooling themselves.

Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).

AEians were for the most part indigenous black Africans, not people from Eurasia. The same way we could say Ancient Greeks were mostly Europeans not people from Africa. If it weren't from the racism of past egyptologists, we wouldn't even need to discuss this, as AE was an African nation and the burden of proof to show they were not indigenous black African is on their side. Nobody questions whether Ancient Greeks were Europeans or not. British and American people for example, as well as other Europeans, consider Ancient Greece part of their history.

From our point of view, we can clearly show a direct line of descendance from the common "recent" origin of African people in Eastern Africa, to the Wavy-line pottery culture (also called Saharan-Sudanese neolithic/culture) to the Tasian, Badarian and Naqada culture (all from the south, from Africa). For example, most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia. In a similar fashion, all African language families are said to have originated somewhere in Eastern Africa (at a time period postdating the OOA migrations of non-African).

The concept of the dynastic race coming from Eurasia to establish the AEian civilisation in Africa is dead.

It's also important to take into account that Ancient Egypt is just one of the many African civilisations in Africa. I hope people take the time to study and read about other African civilizations like the Yoruba ones, Akan, Zulu, Kongo, etc.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).

most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.

 -

paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).

most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.

 -

paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E

Yes, but not maternally and not autosomally as they cluster with Eurasian populations. Albert Einstein also carry the E haplogroup, it doens't make him a black African. We must always check both maternal and paternal line of descent as well as autosomally as uniparental haplogroups are only one line of descent.

I mentioned above that most African populations mostly carry the E-P2 haplogroups (y-dna), along with the A and B haplogroups, but they also carry MtDNA L haplogroups as well as clustering autosomally with other black African populations for example in term of genetic distances.

That's why the undercover racists on this forum like to use those north african populations admixed with Eurasian as their proxy eurasian population. Same with recently admixed Eastern Africans. But as I said, Ancient Egyptians were mostly indigenous black African. At least, that's what the current research tend to show. The burden of proof to prove otherwise should be on the racist camp.

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the lioness,
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Amun-Ra do you consider Barack Obama an African? to what extent?

In America he's considered to be black

or is he more like a berber?

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amun-Ra do you consider Barack Obama an African? to what extent?

In America he's considered to be black

or is he more like a berber?

Obama is obviously 50% African 50% European, but this situation in a real practical sense is completely different that the Berbers situation, or the situation of Albert Einstein or Balkans (who carry the E hg up to around 20%) because of the timeframe and it's application on the population level (not on the individual level).

Those people, like Albert Einstein and his ancestors grew up within a population which was mostly non-African for a long time. So beside their one line of descent along the paternal Y-DNA line, all, or almost all the other lines of descents are non-African. You can carry the E haplogroup and be 99.9% non-African (as I have shown in another thread). Obama is direct descendant of an African father and European mother, so he's 50% African. In the case of Balkans and Einstein it just happens that one line of descent which happens to be the E haplogroup one, had a lot of male descendants. In term of maternal and autosomal, they are mostly part of their respective populations. Almost all the other line of descent are part of their respective people (Jewish for Einstein, Europeans for the Balkans, European-West Asian for the Berbers). For the Balkans we can see this may be possible by the fact that they don't carry any African maternal haplogroup to significant level only the y-DNA E, so the E carriers who migrated to the Balkans were probably already part of a non-African population when they migrated to the Balkans or they would have brought African mtDNA L haplogroups with them who would still be found in the Balkans to a high degree.

At the extreme case, it's possible, that only one, or very few, E carriers made his way to the Balkans but then he and his descendants had a lot of male descendants to the point of forming 20% of the male population on the Y-DNA paternal line. Obviously intermarrying with local women of European descent, while the female descendant of E carriers also intermarry with local European/Balkans people, thus autosomally they would cluster in a big way with other europeans populations. They may be 99% Europeans beside carrying the E haplogroup.


Imagine if the descendants of Obama, his children and his children's children only intermarry with European people (as if they were in the Levant or the Balkans). Let's say Obama married an European woman instead of an African woman.

1st generation - Obama himself 50% African possibly E carrier. Let's suppose he is.
2nd generation - The male children of Obama with a white woman 25% African
3rd generation - 12.5% African
4- 6.25%
5- 3.125% but the males would still be E carriers (if Obama was)

So within only 5 generations, the E carriers descendant of a single male, Obama, are only 3.125% African despite carrying the E haplogroup. Thus the importance of analysing all lines of descents and the general context.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

What it says is that Vandals were in Africa. This is a fact.

Another fact is that we now have a genetic relation to certain Berber tribes and the partly Germanic offshoot.

Is there any DNA haplogroup evidence of this?
It was already posted to you. And elaborated on. Act as if it's not there. [Big Grin]


I'm sorry on what page oif the thread do you mention specific haplogroups that Germanic Vandals brought to the Tunisia region?
[Roll Eyes]

I'm sorry, that you've missed it. It was on the page before this one. Don't worry, here it is again.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000277

quote:


The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms

S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied


http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2010.490241

 -


quote:




I didn't miss anything
Stop being repettiious, you are unable to name any specific haplogroups which might represent a Vandal migration to North Africa because you are quoting a pay per view Frigi/Ennafaa article which you don't have full access to.

Airhead,


Do you understand English?


quote:
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]

S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied

Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.


Ps, you've skipped this one as well. [Big Grin]


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008671;p=6#000298

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).

most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.

 -

paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E

Indeed berbers are indigenous to Africa, but have admixture. Varying from place to place and tribe to tribe.
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Son of Ra
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@Trollkillah

I also keep trying to tell people that Berbers are not one monolithic group. Each Berber tribe has different origins. But Berbers origins as a whole stems from East Africa. They are only homogeneous in that.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Trollkillah

I also keep trying to tell people that Berbers are not one monolithic group. Each Berber tribe has different origins. But Berbers origins as a whole stems from East Africa. They are only homogeneous in that.

Corrrect.
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Snakepit1
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most populations in North Africa don't even consider themselves black Africans for the most part (beside the actual black Africans still living there like the Tebu, Nubians, etc).

most African people now carries the E-P2 haplogroups, along with the A and B haplogroups, which originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia.

 -

paternally the most common haplogroup in berbers is E

Yes, but not maternally and not autosomally as they cluster with Eurasian populations. Albert Einstein also carry the E haplogroup, it doens't make him a black African. We must always check both maternal and paternal line of descent as well as autosomally as uniparental haplogroups are only one line of descent.

I mentioned above that most African populations mostly carry the E-P2 haplogroups (y-dna), along with the A and B haplogroups, but they also carry MtDNA L haplogroups as well as clustering autosomally with other black African populations for example in term of genetic distances.

That's why the undercover racists on this forum like to use those north african populations admixed with Eurasian as their proxy eurasian population. Same with recently admixed Eastern Africans. But as I said, Ancient Egyptians were mostly indigenous black African. At least, that's what the current research tend to show. The burden of proof to prove otherwise should be on the racist camp.

What's with the "black african" term? You're either African or you're not. We all know who's indigenous to Africa and who isn't. Africans doesn't need to be hyphenated. Period.
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Elite Diasporan
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This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.

But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.

IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.

But anyways yeah I like this thread.

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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.

But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.

IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.

But anyways yeah I like this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or
disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?


His pertinent national samples say

* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African
* Tunisia is primarily African
* S Maroc is primarily African
* W Sahara is primarily African
* Algeria is primarily African
* N Maroc is primarily African.

 -

Above are the African vs non-African SNP
frequencies of each selected African nation
and grouped views of them as

* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset
* a limited Tamazgha subset, and
* a core Maghreb subset.


Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on
North African populations. It attempts
to discern Neanderthal genome influx. [/QB]


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Bump

quote:
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied

Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.

But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.

IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.

But anyways yeah I like this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or
disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?


His pertinent national samples say

* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African
* Tunisia is primarily African
* S Maroc is primarily African
* W Sahara is primarily African
* Algeria is primarily African
* N Maroc is primarily African.

 -

Above are the African vs non-African SNP
frequencies of each selected African nation
and grouped views of them as

* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset
* a limited Tamazgha subset, and
* a core Maghreb subset.


Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on
North African populations. It attempts
to discern Neanderthal genome influx.

[/QB]
Interesting. But what exactly are these results based on? Just asking
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
This is actually one of my most favorite threads on this site when I was a lurker.

But I have a question, do Moroccans as have the most African admixture compared to other North African nationalities? Because I think so, I remember my ex Moroccan girl telling me something like this.

IMO I think Algerians have the LEAST amount of African admixture; at least in Northwest Africa. Reason why I believe this is because Algeria for the most part during its history was sparsely populated and modern day Algerians are descendants of expelled Muslims from Europe and European female slaves.

But anyways yeah I like this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or
disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?


His pertinent national samples say

* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African
* Tunisia is primarily African
* S Maroc is primarily African
* W Sahara is primarily African
* Algeria is primarily African
* N Maroc is primarily African.

 -

Above are the African vs non-African SNP
frequencies of each selected African nation
and grouped views of them as

* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset
* a limited Tamazgha subset, and
* a core Maghreb subset.


Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on
North African populations. It attempts
to discern Neanderthal genome influx.


Interesting. But what exactly are these results based on? Just asking [/QB]
The above chart is one of sveral that Tukuler (al Takruri) made that compiles the DNA data from particular recent articles.
These analysis are showing that on average North African popualtions of today are split to between around half and half between African and Eurasian, some a little more African on others a little more Eurasian

It's not surpising

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Bump

quote:
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied

Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.

No, North African ancestry is not simple at all.
The largest foreign influence on the region's gentics is from the Levant and Arabia, haplogroup H and J
The Vandals are only one of many foreign occupations of North Africa and their numbers are disputed
Phoenicians (from Lebanon)
Greeks
Romans
Vandals
Arabs
Turks

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The above chart is one of sveral that Tukuler (al Takruri) made that compiles the DNA data from particular recent articles.
These analysis are showing that on average North African popualtions of today are split to between around half and half between African and Eurasian, some a little more African on others a little more Eurasian

It's not surpising [/QB]

I can agree to this. I always held the opinion that modern day North Africans are the result of African men and Eurasian/European women.

I believe Moroccans to have the most African admixture(if we exclude Northern Sudanese people) than other North Africans who are mostly Eurasian admixed especially Algerians and Egyptians.

Again this is just my opinion. Also what recent articles were they? I'm interested. [Smile]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The above chart is one of sveral that Tukuler (al Takruri) made that compiles the DNA data from particular recent articles.
These analysis are showing that on average North African popualtions of today are split to between around half and half between African and Eurasian, some a little more African on others a little more Eurasian

It's not surpising

I can agree to this. I always held the opinion that modern day North Africans are the result of African men and Eurasian/European women.

I believe Moroccans to have the most African admixture(if we exclude Northern Sudanese people) than other North Africans who are mostly Eurasian admixed especially Algerians and Egyptians.

Again this is just my opinion. Also what recent articles were they? I'm interested. [Smile] [/QB]

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ijma/article/view/111167/100936

Synthetic review on the genetic relatedness between North Africa and Arabia deduced from paternal lineage distributions
S Triki-Fendri, A Rebai 2014


look at this thread, it's wherre Tukuler was compiling info>

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008823


Berbers are primarily not African ?


quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

[*]A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data
for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.

Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
 -
 -
 -

Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African
[/list]
.
.

  •  -
     -




[/QUOTE]


^^^ the white charts are Tukular made compilations of the data and used his own terminology in osme cases
the articles are not always topical to berbers
The Sanchez Quinto was on neanderthal admixture
-but it still has relevant background data not pertaining to neanderthals, some stuff in suppliments

for source articles on each go to google scholar
and type in name and date, + "africa"
ex. Bekada 2013

Note, the Sanchez Quinto says 94% African. The other figures are good but not that one. Comapritively the other articles say 33-42.
So you have to look at the source article to find out about the sampling

On specific berber groups the Kabyle of Algeria, the largest group of berbers is probably most admixed with Eurasians

Arabs who came up with the Berber name. Islam came to the Berbers in the ninth and tenth centuries. Prior to then, most Berbers across Africa were Christian or Jewish. Two great Islamic Berber dynasties, Almoravids and Almohads, ruled large parts of Spain and northwest Africa.

Today, most of the twenty-seven million Moroccans are either Berbers, Arabs, or Moors (people of Berber/Arab decent). Their ancestors became the Almoravids and Almohads that built the mighty Moorish empire that ruled Spain, Portugal and Northern African.

Most of today’s Berbers live in the mountains of Morocco while the Arabs and Moors live in the cities, though it is very common these days to see Berbers running, owning and operating small shops and other commerce endeavors.

Different tribes of Berbers inhabit different regions in Morocco. Drawa Berbers are found in the Draa Valley. The Dades live in the North East, The Mesgita, Seddrat and Zeri tribes are along the rives of the North West. Moroccan Rif region is home to the Ghomara.

further info:

THE BERBERS OF MOROCCO
___________________

other threads

Swenet>

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008868

Origin of modern day Berbers speakers--just facts, no dogma inspired fiction


_______________________

thread

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Bump

quote:
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations "Germany" [...]

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied

Vandals are of German descent. And entered Northern Africa in large numbers. So it's pretty simple.

No, North African ancestry is not simple at all.
The largest foreign influence on the region's gentics is from the Levant and Arabia, haplogroup H and J
The Vandals are only one of many foreign occupations of North Africa and their numbers are disputed
Phoenicians (from Lebanon)
Greeks
Romans
Vandals
Arabs
Turks

Of course it's not that simple, it's complex as we know it. But crumb by crumb we 'regetting there. This was just a crumb.
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quote:
The Tamasheq language


Tamasheq (or Tamajeq, or Tamaheq, stemming from the word Tamazight) is the language of the Tuareg, a nomadic people that has been settled in the desert areas of North Africa for millennia, over a vast territory reaching from Mali to Libya, from Burkina Faso to Algeria, and including Niger. There are around one million speakers of Tamasheq.


As are Kabyle, Shawia, or Rifian, Tamasheq is actually a variant of Berber (or Tamazight), a group of languages found in the entire part of North Africa (Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Niger, Mauritania, Mali, and Burkina Faso), not to mention a large diaspora in Europe and America. In total, estimations account for over 45 million speakers of Berber languages.


One distinctive feature of the Berber language is its writing. An alphabet known as Tifinagh appeared during the first millennium B.C., and despite its disappearing in most of the North where it was replaced by Roman and Arabic alphabets, the Tuareg have been using it ever since. In the second half of the 20th century, a modern version, first created by the Berber Academy, and then modified by linguists to reach a standard form that would be suitable to all types of idioms, is now widely used in the North, and was even formalized in Morocco in 2001. This Alphabet, known as Neo-Tifinagh, while raising enthusiasm in the North, still encounters reluctance among the Tuareg people.

http://www.sorosoro.org/en/2011/07/the-tamasheq-language/


quote:
The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
--Nikita E1, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.

Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.


quote:

The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert approximately 3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them are examined. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and subsequent gene flow. This issue is addressed by means of analyses of non-metric cranial and mandibular traits.


Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This may relate to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the relative biological proximity of populations which are located along the Nile or the Mediterranean coast, such as the Kerma and Gizeh, the Algerians and Alexandrians, the Soleb and Alexandrians. Finally, females overall exhibit smaller pairwise biodistances compared to males, possibly due to the greater gene flow in the female population as a result of their greater mobility because of various marital networks.


To conclude, the Sahara Desert restricted population contacts in the Late Holocene, once it had turned hyper-arid. The trade networks must have involved only a specialized sub-set of merchants, while females dispersed more widely, possibly due to patrilocal marital networks.

--Efthymia Nikita1, Marta Mirazón Lahr1 and David Mattingly2

Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Non-metric Cranial Traits and Biological Affinities of North African Late Holocene Populations


1 Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, University of Cambridge
2 School of Archaeology and Ancient History, University of Leicester

13th Annual Conference of the British Association for Biological Anthropology and Osteoarchaeology

Organiser
Dr. Kathleen McSweeney
University of Edinburgh
School of History, Classics, and Archaeology
Friday 2nd – Sunday 4th September 2011 Programme and Abstracts

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Troll Patrol is your inbox clear? Because I want to send you something. [Smile]
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Let me give some examples because I feel this is a good thread. Because I feel Northwest Africans have this interesting exotic look to them that may be their average phenotype. Its "mulatto" like the OP described but it seems to be a cross between Horner/Near Eastern but STILL unique to Northwest Africa. Can't explain but my ex had that look to.

 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -


What do you guys classify her as???^^^

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She's Algerian.
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

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She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.

Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
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capra
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my deep anthropological insight:

first one is hot but second one is smoking

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^lol!!
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
my deep anthropological insight:

first one is hot but second one is smoking

Well, that is how Johann Friendrich Blumenbach did it when he invented the caucasoid theory.
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.

Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Yes, but genetically there are similarities. So that’s not surprising.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
my deep anthropological insight:

first one is hot but second one is smoking

Well, that is how Johann Friendrich Blumenbach did it when he invented the caucasoid theory.
That's true, Ish. This calls for further on the ground research. We could apply for a grant, call it something like "Evaluating early 19th century racial typological assignment based on perceptions of beauty: a replicational study".
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.

Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Yes, but genetically there are similarities. So that’s not surprising.
I'm guessing the Moroccan you said is of typical Sharawi descent. However on her IG she never claimed to be Sharawi but just plain Moroccan but who knows?
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She's Algerian. What do you guys consider her "phenotype."

 -
 -

She looks like a typical biracial here in America.

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She's Moroccan.
 -

She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.

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She's Algerian
 -
 -
 -
 -

Not exactly sure what to classify her as. What do you guys classify her phenotype as?

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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
She's Moroccan.
 -

She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.

Typical Moroccan girl, on average.
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
She is typically Sharawi, West Sahara.

Who the Moroccan or Algerian?
Yes, but genetically there are similarities. So that’s not surprising.
I'm guessing the Moroccan you said is of typical Sharawi descent. However on her IG she never claimed to be Sharawi but just plain Moroccan but who knows?
Sharawi is Southern Morocco, West Sahara.
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I have seen a whole fuss over Nessa Diab from (Hot79), it's almost crazy. She's Egyptian btw (Mom allegedly American-Creole).

 -

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Nessa is good looking. But not everyone considers Sahrawi apart of Morocco. Anyways you as a person who has lineages in this area. Did the pics of the females I posted come off as accurate for that regions phenotype? Or no?
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the lioness,
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
She's Moroccan.
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She has one of those "unique Northwest African" phenotypes. To me she can pass for a Caribbean Latina like a Puerto Rican or Dominican.

Ps, in fact during my late teen years I knew quit a few Moroccan girls who loved to travel to the Caribbean, i.e Dominican. They mingled in easy and large parts of Morocco is Spanish speaking. And a lot of Moroccan guys travel the Brazil.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
Nessa is good looking. But not everyone considers Sahrawi apart of Morocco. Anyways you as a person who has lineages in this area. Did the pics of the females I posted come off as accurate for that regions phenotype? Or no?

In terms of phenotype, yes. But you wil also find Arab descent people there.

Sahrawi is cut off from Morocco, and seeks independency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-RU5m4LnsQ

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Elite Diasporan
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@Ish Geber

Dang, did not know North Africans traveled Latin America like that.

Also is it true that Berbers of Sahrawi have significant SSA admixture or is that a Eurocentric myth to explain away their more "African leaning" features?

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