. what I posted supports much of what Amun Ra posted so what are you talking about?
Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't. And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA
.
How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not primarily African? Are Berbers only female?
What about autosomes, primarily African or not?
What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?
I posit the obvious
North Africa was populated by indigenees
Foreign peoples came to N Afr and had African mates.
By the time Berber became NAs' language coastal NAs were substantially mixed.
Berbers continued taking foreign mates (perhaps preferentially.
Berbers remain majority African with the local indigenous genetics the highest in evidence.
Confirming data to come in support of the below:
factoring autosomes, nrY, and mtDNA into a whole Berber are indisputably primarily African as per genetics. Their philosophy, outreach, and self- image has no bearing on that biological fact.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
True, the mean frequency of M81 in North Africa is 42% not 100% Notably the Siwa are only 1.1% M81
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
The Berbers are a nice mix of European, Middle Eastern and African DNA at different proportion depending on the population and individual analyzed.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Many might be described as mulattos, amoung them some more African than not, others more Euro-Mid Eastern than African. They do have high levels of paternal E, some of it M81. Some upwards of 80%, various E groups, often but not always M81, also some R and J H and U on the maternals, other Hgs
what are you kiddin me another who were the Berbers thread??? Why am I even playing not this redundancy? Not far back there are a few multi page threads Berber or NA threads We need new thread topics, keep callin my name get hurt
lioness productions til the casket drop Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
We are back to African men preferential to European women circa 20,000bc!!! Keeping in mind H* and H3 is older in Africa. Sighhhhhh!!!
There is no such thing as a true Negro or true New Guinean.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
^for the trolling person above. It's funny and pathetic how you fight this with every drop of blood running through your racist veins.
. what I posted supports much of what Amun Ra posted so what are you talking about?
Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't. And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA
.
How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not primarily African? Are Berbers only female?
What about autosomes, primarily African or not?
What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?
I posit the obvious
North Africa was populated by indigenees
Foreign peoples came to N Afr and had African mates.
By the time Berber became NAs' language coastal NAs were substantially mixed.
Berbers continued taking foreign mates (perhaps preferentially.
Berbers remain majority African with the local indigenous genetics the highest in evidence.
Confirming data to come in support of the below:
factoring autosomes, nrY, and mtDNA into a whole Berber are indisputably primarily African as per genetics. Their philosophy, outreach, and self- image has no bearing on that biological fact.
Berbers are not one monolithic group, so who is a Berber then? Is it the person of enslaved European decent? Is it the person who have Black African and European concubine (again enslaved) ancestry? What definition are we to use?
Those Tans and whites are VERY late comers to North Africa. North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt. But by in large, modern day people like Haratin, Tawarga, Tebu etc. are the true North African. There is a great peer reviewed paper called "What happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun" written by Dr. Richard L Smith. He quotes a number of sources, dating back to about 500 BCE, which describe nothing but BLACK Africans living in North Africa. Then about 1100 AD Ibn Khaldoun describes one of the Sanhaja tribes is being bayda “whites” and the rest as blacks (suda). Ibn Khaldoun in his description even states the Black tribes of the Sanhaja are believed to be the original group and the whites looked like that because they were in the north and thus their skin became white. A silly notion indeed, but still shows that North Africa in ancient times, up until recently was dominated by blacks.
Also if you watch this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4sbLY6rxxg, Dr. Keita talks about the white and tan Toureg of a certain geographic location who have had genetic studies done on them. He states they have European admixture, which would explain the current look of some of them. Even still, with their tan and white skin, you can tell there is black African genetic base, through out that population. That video might not be the one I am thinking about, if not just youtube search for Dr. Shomarka Keita, and watch all his videos. One of them talks about genetic test done on Toureg populations. The basics of their history is, some are most likely mixed with white slaves or probably even white Muslims who left Europe after the fall of the Moorish empire. We know that some found their way to North and West Africa, as did Jews. Which would make sense, some of the black Berber tribes were Jews before Islam came into Africa. Contrary to popular belief, many did not convert to Islam and remained Jews for a LONG time. When the Arabs and Africans attached Spain, there were Jews among them who helped to conquer Spain. Their descendants probably became whiter looking when they mixed with European people, and they then went back to their ancestral homes in North/ North West Africa, once Moorish Spain fell.
There is a good peer reviewed paper titled “Judaic Threads in the West African Tapestry: No More Forever?” by Dr. Labelle Prussin. In it he shows source material from Arab travelers, who stated they encountered black “Jewish” peoples in North and West Africa. Also, if you read Tarikh Al Sudan, there is a preamble concerning a Malian man, who gives the manuscript (Tarikh Al Sudan) to a French researcher. The French researcher noted that the Malian told this white man “While Europeans were living in Caves, we were worshiping the God of Moses”, in relation to the fact many peoples in the area claim to have originally practiced a mosaic religion of some sort, long before there was ever a white skinned person claiming to practice a religion based on the teachings of the Prophet Moses.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Denial......
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt.
It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East).
At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture).
This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.
The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa. Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago.
Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Those Tans and whites are VERY late comers to North Africa. North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt
where is your evidence that Maghreb was completely black in say 2000 BC to 1100 AD?
What black civilization? What human remains settlement in the Maghreb at that time?
Also you left out the Phoenicians who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC founding Utica, Carthage and other cities. While they may not be what somebody would describe as white they might be decribed as probably brown levantine looking people, not African. The population of Carthage was said to be a half million at it's height, largely Phoenician with some indigenous nomads mixing in
You say "pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples"
What is the black civilization of the time in the Maghreb that they were a pocket of?
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man
Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC. Classical Period. Grave marker depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus). Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York. ^^^ sorry does not look like black dude from Africa despite brown skin
^^^ and the Romans army was running the Maghreb in the 2nd century
Where is the record of large numbers of black people settlements at this time ?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Genetics anyone?
or just rerun the same ol touchy feelies (except for Xyy's & ARtU's contributions)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am waiting on "new" data to the contrary. When you get time post it. Or cite source. I am open to new perspective but that white women slave ithing s nonsense. A black man's wet dream?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Of course H1 & H3 in Africa are as old or older than in Europe -- < 12,000 years ago so not paleolithic -- with unique African haplotypes proving they are not European
BUT
what about the parent H
that's what ultimately makes H1,3 technically a back migration
same as the E in Europe ultimately it's African yet certain subclades are European since those haplotypes are only found in Europe
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Berber and NA genetics have been done to death on multi page threads within the past year, the subject is worn out to put it mildly.
further threads on Siwa, Tuareg, Mozabites, barbary pirates, Moroccan sultans, Kabyles, Tunisia, Algeria
If you don't wanna chime in then STFU wench and let those who wanna do it do it
everything you post is a rehash of what has been posted once twice thrice or more
yr dumbass comment on Berbers is what prompted this thread to remind yr sidewinding ass of the biology of Berbers and how pooled as a whole they are still, after millenia of admixture, majority local African by genetics. Berbers are genetically a majority local African people.
It's a fact man a fact
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt.
It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East).
At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture).
This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.
The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa. Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago.
Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data.
Trust me when I tell you, NO ONE knows when European genes started to come into Africa, at least not by way of genetic testing. This 10,000 years ago talk is total bollocks. Dr. Winters posted a website from a professor not to long ago. In it the professor says that Genetics can not tell you with any real certainty when genes were introduced into a population, its impossible. Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black? I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Those Tans and whites are VERY late comers to North Africa. North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt
where is your evidence that Maghreb was completely black in say 2000 BC to 1100 AD?
What black civilization? What human remains settlement in the Maghreb at that time?
Also you left out the Phoenicians who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC founding Utica, Carthage and other cities. While they may not be what somebody would describe as white they might be decribed as probably brown levantine looking people, not African. The population of Carthage was said to be a half million at it's height, largely Phoenician with some indigenous nomads mixing in
You say "pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples"
What is the black civilization of the time in the Maghreb that they were a pocket of?
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man
Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC. Classical Period. Grave marker depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus). Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York. ^^^ sorry does not look like black dude from Africa despite brown skin
^^^ and the Romans army was running the Maghreb in the 2nd century
Where is the record of large numbers of black people settlements at this time ?
Go read the post I originally made, part of which you are quoting. It clearly names the sources.
PS
You posting pictures of statues that are supposedly from Cyprus doesn't prove much of anything either. especially since Cyprus is not in North Africa. Not to mention there are Greek authors who described Phoenicians as Aithiops.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Genetics anyone?
or just rerun the same ol touchy feelies (except for Xyy's & ARtU's contributions)
Genetics does not tell you a entire story and attempting to rely solely on them won't help in understanding the origins of a population, nor will explain when and how foreign genes were introduced into a population. Nor does it trump eye witness accounts. We have to have a multi pronged discussion if we want to truly understand what has happened in N. Africa
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My guess based on archaeology is maybe 2500 BCE for Euro input to coastal N Afrs.
Contrary to your beliefs contemporaneous primary documents confirm light complexioned North Africans since the Med classical age.
You're just talking ideology.
You may be a preacher but ES is not your choir we think and weigh evidence not rant and rave "black over all"
Genetics is the only thing that can tell us whether or not today's Berber population is primarily African or not.
For those with non-existant attention spans this thread is about the GENETICS as was raised in the OP, remember
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
^for the trolling person above. It's funny and pathetic how you fight this with every drop of blood running through your racist veins.
. what I posted supports much of what Amun Ra posted so what are you talking about?
Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't. And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trust me when I tell you, NO ONE knows when European genes started to come into Africa, at least not by way of genetic testing. This 10,000 years ago talk is total bollocks.
There was a genetic study of Ancient DNA remains in North Africa, just a few of remains and at the same location iirc (to be verified). The site was carbon dated to earlier than 10000BC (I don't remember the exact date, anyway I always prefer to consider a wide margin of error, especially for such ancient date). And the haplogroups of the remains were haplogroup H and other European descendant haplogroups. Maybe somebody can post the study as it was posted earlier on this forum.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black?
So the Greeks, Roman and Vandals were black? OK
see that light orange area to the South of the Romans? That's desert, few people lived there in the Maghreb
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears. [/QB]
you mean a non white like these guys?:
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Kefi's study is flawed because we can't verify her haplogroup assignments because she never gives a valid polymorphism string for haplogroups she posits.
How do we know what she calls CRS is actually CRS since we see she gives no more than two polymorphisms for her haplogroup guesswork?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Talking in pictures? There are always contradicing pictures for whatever pictures one non-verbally spams
This is what clowning trolls do when they can't contribute any sensible material -- go picture spam and derail/distract from the prime issue BERBER GENETICS
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black?
So the Greeks, Roman and Vandals were black? OK
see that light orange area to the South of the Romans? That's desert, few people lived there in the Maghreb
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears.
you mean a non white like these guys?:
[/QB]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My guess based on archaeology is maybe 2500 BCE for Euro input to coastal N Afrs.
That is what I am usually talking about. Other people try to put it much later, typezeiss, pure silliness As today, over 90% of the Magheb population is coastal. It's not like in this time period, 2500 BC - 664 AD there was this big mass of Black people living all over the desert and these little "pockets" of Euros living along the coast. As today those inland areas of the Mahgreb were largley unpopulated and more so before the spread of the camel. And even during the Islamic conquests there are Arabs entering the region some Syrians in the army, types the Egyptians would call "Asiatics"
The green period is another story but there is no evidence of continuity between the green period and the post hunter gather popualtions that came later. Swenet even thinks the
Now, going back 12,000kya Brenna Henn et al hypothosized an earlier migration from Eurasia into the Maghreb. Several articles in recent years support this as a possibility. I'm not sure about it. Going back to the Iberomaurusian and capsian hunter gatherers of the wet period and the variety of differing skull types there as well as tool kit it's hard to tell if they are all indigenous African
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Talking in pictures? There are always contradicing pictures for whatever pictures one non-verbally spams
This is what clowning trolls do when they can't contribute any sensible material -- go picture spam and derail/distract from the prime issue BERBER GENETICS
So far in this thread you have put up no articles on berber genetics, I have done it many times in the recent past, it's tiresome to repeat, although I did link Coudray
and since the Egyptsearch philosophy is that all haplogroups are African what's the point?
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Talking in pictures? There are always contradicing pictures for whatever pictures one non-verbally spams
This is what clowning trolls do when they can't contribute any sensible material -- go picture spam and derail/distract from the prime issue BERBER GENETICS
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black?
So the Greeks, Roman and Vandals were black? OK
see that light orange area to the South of the Romans? That's desert, few people lived there in the Maghreb
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears.
you mean a non white like these guys?:
[/QB]
Lets take this slow. White and tan berbers do not appear in North Africa until around 1100 AD or so. Now you can post alllll the genetic information you want, but at the end of the day it does not tell you when those Genes appear in a area, thats a fact. There was a HUGE slave trade that introduced MILLIONS of whites into North Africa. So trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Lets take this slow. White and tan berbers do not appear in North Africa until around 1100 AD or so. Now you can post alllll the genetic information you want, but at the end of the day it does not tell you when those Genes appear in a area, thats a fact. There was a HUGE slave trade that introduced MILLIONS of whites into North Africa. So trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.
You ignore history. Looking at the largest civilization in the Maghreb, Carthage, at it's height half a million, one of the cities founded by Phoenician traders, non Africans who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC. Sone Greeks were also in the area There are also the Sea people. There are also the Romans, after that There are also tens of thousands of Germanic Vandals, 5th century BC.
This is history
So where do you think these people wound up?
They wound up in a big mixture along with indigenous Africans, These are the roots of the berbers. All well before the time of Christ
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Watch out now you'll break neck blowin yr own horn
like u the only one ever posted studies
give it a breal
we were posting studies before you got here we'll be posting studies after you done gone
meanwhile you haven't done a thing to support you OP remark
u still no answer what I ask u
remember lil ms sidewinder
Lyin'Ass quote "You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't. And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA "
to which I ask and still await (w/supporting studies)
How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not primarily African? Are Berbers only female?
What about autosomes, primarily African or not?
What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?
BTW u silly ass ES is no monolith each member has their own point of view
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Talking in pictures? There are always contradicing pictures for whatever pictures one non-verbally spams
This is what clowning trolls do when they can't contribute any sensible material -- go picture spam and derail/distract from the prime issue BERBER GENETICS
So far in this thread you have put up no articles on berber genetics, I have done it many times in the recent past, it's tiresome to repeat, although I did link Coudray
and since the Egyptsearch philosophy is that all haplogroups are African what's the point?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing. [/QB]
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,
Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Simon Gravel, Wei Wang Abra Brisbin. Jake K. Byrnes, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid,Pierre A. Zalloua,
Abstract
North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data [730,000 sites] from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago [approximately 1,200 ya]; a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago [approximately 750 ya]. Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa.
_______________________________________________
^^^ It doesn't matter if you agree with the hypothesis. They are talking about 12,000 yeras ago, well before "historical data" in the region.
It is prehistoric, so this is where genetics and archaeology comes in.
The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–
This is far before history, It's prehistoric, Reality doesn't start when somebody first writes something down or you happen to find some ancient writing.
Anyway even the Egyptians record Asiatics with straight hair and skin lighter than theirs, non-Africans in North Africa further back than 1100 AD.
In fact further back than 1100 BC !
These are part of the root of the berbers
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
The lioness, the study you posted above is only DNA estimation/inference based on modern population distribution but do you have the study about ancient North African remains before (or around) 10000BC I talked about above? The aDNA study. I'm not sure if it was the full study or only the abstract. I know it was only mtDNA (which was very unfortunate).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't. And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA
.
I don't have to qualify their position,
The only point I was making is that berbers should be looked at on a autosomal basis and not on the basis of one young haplogroup, M81, that Siwa virtually don't carry
now carry on,
I'm going to try to bow out of this, because- been there done that
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Where did Germanic Vandals wind up?
I presume you mean the ones who didn't run off to the Goths or find refuge in Saldae Algeria, right on the Mediterranean coast, and adapt to what Berbers were there.
Did you read the report from the 6th century about them conscripted into a Byzantine army to fight an enemy somewhere in Persia whereever?
No? Try Procopius.
Now what was the name of that Vandal cohort again?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't have to qualify their position,
I'm going to try to bow out of this, because-
. You mean you can't qualify your statement that you laid at their door post. You're going to bow out because you cannot post anything in support of your presumption.
O Cowardly Lyin'Ass this is what your snakey ass is slinking away from
quote: Lyin'Ass quote "You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't. And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA "
to which I ask and still await (w/supporting studies)
How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not primarily African? Are Berbers only female?
What about autosomes, primarily African or not?
What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?
Post-last glacial maximum expansion from Iberia to North Africa revealed by fine characterization of mtDNA H haplogroup in Tunisia. Cherni L, Fernandes V, Pereira JB, Costa MD, Goios A, Frigi S, Yacoubi-Loueslati B, Amor MB, Slama A, Amorim A, El Gaaied AB, Pereira L. Author information Abstract The first large-scale fine characterization of Tunisian H lineages clarifies that the post-Last glacial maximum expansion originating in Iberia not only led to the resettlement of Europe but also of North Africa. We found that 46% of 81 Tunisian H lineages subscreened for 1,580 bp in mtDNA coding region were affiliated with H1 and H3 subhaplogroups, which are known to have originated in Iberia. Although no signs of local expansion were detected, which would allow a clear dating of their introduction, the younger and less diverse Tunisian H1 and H3 lineages indicate Iberia as the radiating centre. Major contributions from historical migrations to this Iberian genetic imprint in Tunisia were ruled out by the mtDNA gene pool similarity between Berber/Arab/cosmopolitan samples and some "Andalusian" communities, settled by the descendents of the "Moors" who once lived in Iberia for 10 centuries (between 8th and 17th centuries), before being expelled to Tunisia. Copyright 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Some bow out Silly Rabbit
Tunisia is not all of Tamazgha and Berbers are not only female.
Also since H1'3 is about the same age in Africa and Europe but is highest frequency in Africa where it has haplotypes not found in Europe it's best to conclude NA H1,3 is African just like certain E subclades are Europe specific.
But for arguments sake when I present my analysis of mtDNA nrY and autosomes of Berbers overall I will count the H1'3 as European
and still you will see overall Berbers are predominantly local African genetically despite any and all admixture from wherever.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: The lioness, the study you posted above is only DNA estimation/inference based on modern population distribution but do you have the study about ancient North African remains before (or around) 10000BC I talked about above? The aDNA study. I'm not sure if it was the full study or only the abstract. I know it was only mtDNA (which was very unfortunate).
The is some DNA from Taforalt,Morocco, 12000 BP, but I only see the mtDNA
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: The lioness, the study you posted above is only DNA estimation/inference based on modern population distribution but do you have the study about ancient North African remains before (or around) 10000BC I talked about above? The aDNA study. I'm not sure if it was the full study or only the abstract. I know it was only mtDNA (which was very unfortunate).
The is some DNA from Taforalt,Morocco, 12000 BP, but I only see the mtDNA
I thought it was another one but it must be it. It's very unfortunate they didn't test for Y-aDNA too.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages
Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans,
this statement may be wrong, I'm reviewing it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b [E-M215] Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,1
Abstract We explored the phylogeography of human Y-chromosomal haplogroup E3b by analyzing 3,401 individuals from five continents. Our data refine the phylogeny of the entire haplogroup, which appears as a collection of lineages with very different evolutionary histories, and reveal signatures of several distinct processes of migrations and/or recurrent gene flow that occurred in Africa and western Eurasia over the past 25,000 years. In Europe, the overall frequency pattern of haplogroup E-M78 does not support the hypothesis of a uniform spread of people from a single parental Near Eastern population. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism. E-M34 chromosomes were more likely introduced in Ethiopia from the Near East. In conclusion, the present study shows that earlier work based on fewer Y-chromosome markers led to rather simple historical interpretations and highlights the fact that many population-genetic analyses are not robust to a poorly resolved phylogeny.
Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail [Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002]. The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies <25% [Hammer et al. 2000, 2001; Semino et al. 2000; Scozzari et al. 2001; Cinnioğlu et
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001]. E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion [Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001].
E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study], but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations [31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]]; in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare [1.9%], and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger [9.1%], who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%–4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested [Bosch et al. 2001] that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky [95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky] that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 [fig. 2C] support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. [2001] in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula: in our data set, 8 of 15 E-M78 chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe [see above]. Second, and more importantly, the degree of the African contribution is highly variable across different Iberian populations: the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin [E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81] was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos [table 1]. A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos [18%] and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians [17%] has also recently been reported [Maca-Meyer et al. 2003]. Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages
Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia
Not really a fan of genetics cause sometimes they makeup data and I know that you said could be wrong, but where did you read that euros have more M81 then Africans not in North Africa?
Was it in that Cruciani data you posted?
Remember Lioness that Berbers live all across west Africa and Central Africa.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Also Lioness don't forget these are Euro centered studies, so sometimes they find what they want to find.
Not the truth all the times.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Any new data? we discussed all the above before.
And yeah there is an indegenous(pre-history-paleolithic)) element in North Africa if not the Berber. Who? Also remember,I am going strictly on genetic data on sampled populations, there is very little difference between arab speaking and berber speaking populations. Many studies have confirmed that..even Henn.
Keep in mind Henn's sampled "middle Easterns" are ONE population. ie the heavily Africanized Bahrain. Behar, Henn, DNATribes data show that Syrians, Iraq(Levants) are NOT closely matched to NAians. Irregardless of picture spam.
Any new data...anyone?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Lets take this slow. White and tan berbers do not appear in North Africa until around 1100 AD or so. Now you can post alllll the genetic information you want, but at the end of the day it does not tell you when those Genes appear in a area, thats a fact. There was a HUGE slave trade that introduced MILLIONS of whites into North Africa. So trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.
You ignore history. Looking at the largest civilization in the Maghreb, Carthage, at it's height half a million, one of the cities founded by Phoenician traders, non Africans who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC. Sone Greeks were also in the area There are also the Sea people. There are also the Romans, after that There are also tens of thousands of Germanic Vandals, 5th century BC.
This is history
So where do you think these people wound up?
They wound up in a big mixture along with indigenous Africans, These are the roots of the berbers. All well before the time of Christ
Again, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages
Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia
Lioness, beginning to understand what your saying Euros DO have more E M81.
When you look at some North Africans, Some look like Euros then you realize that E M81 is an majority European gene (there is a answer on both sides of the coin, sometimes both answers are right or wrong or one side is right and the other wrong)
What separates A person like Zinedine Zidane from Zarkhozy?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
It is hard to believe white European women was in search of black love, or hunting for food without their white men in Sahel central Africa 20,000ya. In fact Henn concluded this back migration "IF" it occurred, was close to 40,000ya. Iirc Cruciani and others speculated 30,000ya. Kivildsid? speculated occupation of NA about 50,000ya. Anthropological evidence point to more than 100,000ya.
Point ? There is no race. Only populations.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sage when you get the new data, post it. I am out for now.
PN2 M81 is European ..... Good god!
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: It is hard to believe white European women was in search of black love, or hunting for food without their white men in Sahel central Africa 20,000ya.
Point ? There is no race. Only populations.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!
Don't know about the 20 000 part
but
hopefully those who advocate race and "superiority" will realize that.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages
Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia
Lioness, beginning to understand what your saying Euros DO have more E M81.
When you look at some North Africans, Some look like Euros then you realize that E M81 is an majority European gene (there is a answer on both sides of the coin, sometimes both answers are right or wrong or one side is right and the other wrong)
What separates A person like Zinedine Zidane from Zarkhozy?
M81 is a unique African haplogroup not believed to have originated in Europe. It's frequenices are very high in the Mahgreb but moderate to low in Europe and Sub Saharan Africa
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You ignore history. LAgain, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation. [/QB]
"Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. People of various backgrounds become berbers. Brown skinned straight haired Phoenicians from the Middle East and relatively darker Southern Europeans and Levantines have been coming into North Africa for much longer than you are claiming to times well before Christ. It is easily observed and recorded in Egyptian art, "Asiatics", Libyans, Hyksos, Sea People These people all mix together and with some indigenous Africans and are the berbers. "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. It is by nature a mixture of people whose ancestors may have had different nationalities long ago. They are all called "berbers" because berber is a language and culture.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You ignore history. LAgain, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
"Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. People of various backgrounds become berbers. Brown skinned straight haired Phoenicians from the Middle East and relatively darker Southern Europeans and Levantines have been coming into North Africa for much longer than you are claiming to times well before Christ. It is easily observed and recorded in Egyptian art. These people all mix together and with some indigenous Africans and are the berbers. "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. It is by nature a mixture of people whose ancestors may have had different nationalities long ago. They are all called "berbers" because berber is a language and culture. [/QB]
there is no language called Berber so wrong there. Berbers are not one homogenous group nor do they have common origin, wrong there again. Berbers are not necessarily nomad either.
As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles and you provide a barrage of googled photos of things, of which you can not prove their origin. You then follow up with a bunch of assumptions, which I can only assume have their origins in your fantasy? You typing your on educated opinions, doesn't make it a fact. You ignore my question and I will repeat it again, WHAT DID THE GREEKS SAY THE PHOENICIANS LOOKED LIKE? You in 2014 can never trump the account of people who were there during the events.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This is an Algerian berber.
They are said to have E-M81 frequencies of over 80% Y DNA
There is no way of knowing if he has this level of M81
Suppose he does.
It is possible that E-M81 produces a person that has features that people might think look more similar to Europeans than other Africans even though it might be a completely African haplogroup. I'm not sure about this. Also the hair. Is E-M81 associated with afro kinky hair or another type of hair or cannot be correlated to hair. I don't know
Therefore if you look at the person above and ask "does he look African? " and someone says "no" or "half" they have to justify it, why not.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Berbers are not one homogenous group nor do they have common origin,
so we agree then
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Berbers are not one homogenous group nor do they have common origin,
so we agree then
No, because when taken as a whole, your entire diatribe is non-factual.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@Sage or anyone who can follow this stuff. I decided to re-read some older papers and I came across two papers I would recommend on the subject. All your answers are there.
1. Comas and Calafell et al - mt heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers
2. Plaza and Calafell et al - joining pillars of Hercules : mtDNA in ....western med.
These are two landmark papers. I may critique them on ESR.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads.
Horseshit.
Berbers in Morocco's Atlas and Berbers in Saharan ksars are not nomads.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: M81 is a unique African haplogroup not believed to have originated in Europe.
Your outlook is so Eurocentric.
Why speak of E-M81 in European terms?
E-M81 flat out originated in Africa not in some vague place called non-Europe.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Going back to the Iberomaurusian and capsian hunter gatherers of the wet period and the variety of differing skull types there as well as tool kit it's hard to tell if they are all indigenous African
More nonsense and Eurocentric daydreaming.
The Maurusian owes nothing to non-African anything.
The tool kit is 100% African. We went over this thoroughly in the Why iberoMAURUSIAN thread 13 months ago.
You carp about redundancy but you sorely need the repetition because you continue in denial of fact and act like you never been told these things and go on to poison minds who naively entertain you seriously.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage or anyone who can follow this stuff. I decided to re-read some older papers and I came across two papers I would recommend on the subject. All your answers are there.
1. Comas and Calafell et al - mt heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers
2. Plaza and Calafell et al - joining pillars of Hercules : mtDNA in ....western med.
These are two landmark papers. I may critique them on ESR.
Late last year I lost my external storage so all my genetic reports, files, and notes are toast.
As a result I lost interest in genetics until now so now I have to rebuild that library but some of the best stuff is no longer free.
I could've posted Ennafaa2012's pies (from my old Kefi thread -- some asking about NW Afr aDNA still don't realize the Taforalt chart I posted in this thread is what they've crying for) and raw data tables S5 & S6 for overall Morocco and Tunisia mtDNA & nrY Chr along with Henn2012's K=8&10 STRUCTURE skylines for overall Saharawi to Egypt autosomal SNPs.
Actually I do have a tentative writeup but want something from 2013 like maybe Bekada or whoever before I post it.
No wine before its time.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: ... no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
What is the genetic signature of these slaves and how did they and their offspring come to outnumber their masters and the region's general population?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: It is hard to believe white European women was in search of black love, or hunting for food without their white men in Sahel central Africa 20,000ya. In fact Henn concluded this back migration "IF" it occurred, was close to 40,000ya. Iirc Cruciani and others speculated 30,000ya. Kivildsid? speculated occupation of NA about 50,000ya. Anthropological evidence point to more than 100,000ya.
Point ? There is no race. Only populations.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!
Of course the refugium overflow theory for H1'3 in NA is whack because there was no ice to stop traffic between Iberia and NW Maroc during LGM.
And as you say what about Iberian males? There is no Euro male signature co-temporal with NA H1'3.
Geneticists fail to consider those two facts when postulating their Iberian origins. Yet the H1'3 had to come from H. Afaict, H is not an African originated mtDNA haplogroup.
More analysis is needed on this.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
It really a good idea to periodically go back and read some of these older papers even if it is dated(2003). Here is an informative piece of data/information .
From : Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean S. Plaza1, F. Calafell1, Comas
Quote: ***** Simoni et al. 2000a; Richards et al. 2000). It has been suggested that haplogroup V originated and expanded from NE Iberia (Torroni et al. 1998; Torroni et al. 2001). In the European samples analysed, its frequency (which includes pre-V and V proper as defined by Torroni et al. 2001) ranges from 2.7% in Sardinia and Southern Italy to 10.4% in Basques, and is absent in Central Spaniards, Valencians, and Tuscans. Except in Algerians and Tunisians, haplogroup V has been found in all the samples analysed, with ****high frequencies among the Saharawi (17.9%) and Southern Berbers (10%). ****In order to elucidate the phylogenetic relationships between sequences, a network of V sequences was constructed (Figure 3). The network displayed a clear star-like pattern with all V sequences found in NW Africa close to the *****V sequence root type***** or with one or two added substitutions, whereas Italian and Iberian V sequences show a wider distribution of substitutions. OUT OF THE FIVE DIFFERENT V HAPLOTYPES FOUND IN NW AFRICA, THREE WERE THOSE THAT ARE MOST FREQUENT IN EUROPE, while only two were specific to NW Africa. A time depth for the haplogroup V of 13,700 ± 3,000 years was estimated when all sequences were included, similar to previous estimates (Torroni et al. 2001). The last section of the mtDNA phylogeny considered includes the Eurasian haplogroups W, I, X, and haplogroup M. Haplogroups W, I, and X are basically found in continental Italy, and some traces are found in Iberians, Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccan Arabs. The M sequences found in the analysed populations can be sorted into two different phylogenetic groups: haplogroups M1 and M5. It has been suggested that ******
Now the questions is how many of us understand what was said there? And the significance it it. I am indebted to you, Sage, for re-visiting the subject. I missed this the first time around.
What does the above excerpt tell us?
1. Torroni is either a liar or quack, which I have been saying all along. 2. There have been several waves of Africans entering Europe from NW from the Maghreb. 3. mtDNA-V seemed to have entered Europe through Iberia and to a lesser extent Sardinia into Italy. 4. Proving yet again. Massive influx of AMH into Europe through NW then Europe, consistent with Henn's SNP data pack. 5. Relevance? mtDNA HV and the high frequency in Berbers and Europe?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
you say "migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated"
Before that point, in the middle of the LGM when temerpatures dropped to ice age conditions where did the people who had been living in Northern and Central Europe go?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles
There was a Tukuler post quoting a peer recviewed article originally posted by Troll Patrol.
You posted no peer reviewed articles on this page or the first page of the thread.
Why are you saying you posted peer reviewed articles when you did not post any peer reviewed articles?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Keep in mind the above are Berber communities. The top four are all in Tunisia. You can't say those frequencies are average for Tunisia or the Maghreb in general. There is a large Arab component to the Tunisians. The frequency for M81 in Tunisia is 62.73, quite high yes but not in the 80% plus field of some Tunisian berber groups. And in Tunisia there are also some berber groups with high but similar lower frequencies than 80%, for example the Sened and Jerbian.
And while Algerian Mozabites average at 86.6% Algerian average at 44.23%
I point this out because people on ES often speak in such a way as if these berber villages represent the larger North Africa. They don't, the cities do.
I've posted links to the mtDNA and Y Dna of berbers. Tukuler still hasn't consolidated the numbers and tried to make a case with the raw genetic data. Further, it must be placed in context of the whole population of the Maghreb with additional information as to the berber population context, the population number of particular berber groups. One berber group may be much larger than another berber group. Therefore that is a second factor. That is if you want to do things properly
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Do anyone understand this...?
Quote: In order to elucidate the phylogenetic relationships between sequences, a network of V sequences was constructed (Figure 3). The network displayed a clear star-like pattern with all V sequences found in NW Africa close to the V sequence root type or with one or two added substitutions, whereas Italian and Iberian V sequences show a wider distribution of substitutions
---
There is nothing to further discuss. Really! The V sequence in Africa is at the base of the V tree. Africa has ALL the sequences found in Europe ...and more!! Meaning what?! tic! toc!
Which means Torroni either lied or was incompetent when he did his study on V back in 2001.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
typeZeiss the theme of this thread is not when the ancestry of the berbers became the way it is today.
The theme is are the berbers on average more African than not African.
Tukuler and xyyman think that the average berber when you combine all the various berber groups as whole is primarily African. Do you agree?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
you say "migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated"
Before that point, in the middle of the LGM when temerpatures dropped to ice age conditions where did the people who had been living in Northern and Central Europe go?
xyyman says the same thing about the Refugium in many posts yet when asked he can never explain what he thinks happened to the people in Europe. He has no credibility on this topic. It's useless to say one theory is wrong and then never to have a theory which explains "what really happened"
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I answered that question several times..and in this thread. mtDNA U5b* is spread all over Europe albeit at low frequencies. This clade has been found in most aDNA in Europe. NG has several Documentaries speculating on pockets of survival of AMH throughout Europe during the Glacial Age. Many researchers also speculate that AMH DID survive througout Europe during the LGM. Although there was population reduction.
The more significant question is what Sage pointed out. "What is the male counter-part to African mtDNA H"?.
There is really no discussion on whether H is African.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Bookmarked thread. Good job Tukuler.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I answered that question several times..and in this thread. mtDNA U5b* is spread all over Europe albeit at low frequencies. This clade has been found in most aDNA in Europe. NG has several Documentaries speculating on pockets of survival of AMH throughout Europe during the Glacial Age. Many researchers also speculate that AMH DID survive througout Europe during the LGM. Although there was population reduction.
The more significant question is what Sage pointed out. "What is the male counter-part to African mtDNA H"?.
There is really no discussion on whether H is African.
Why are you talkin about DNA in a question a refugia? The refugia describes migration into geographic regions. It is not a genetic term.
The refugia IS pockets of survival of AMH throughout Europe during the Glacial Age.
That is what it is, as you describe
_____________________________________
Refugium (population biology)
In biology, a refugium (plural: refugia), sometimes termed simply a refuge or just a "fuge," is a location of an isolated or relict population of a once more widespread species. This isolation (allopatry) can be due to climatic changes, geography, or human activities such as deforestation and overhunting. ____________________________________
In other words a "pocket"
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Typical white people BS semantics word games. As I said I have never come across a white person smarter than me. "Pockets" and you missed "throughout.".6
Anyways!! Anyone get the question about the African male counterpart to mtDNA H entering Europe ? I will explain later.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am open to any counter proposal. Anyone!
I will critique the entire "pillars" paper on ESR when I have the time but the excerpt sums it up.
What is fascinating is the most sub-Saharan of the Berbers carry the root mtDNA V and they are geographically located to the western part of Africa. GTFOH. Lol!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
See Lioness. I don't need pic spam gimmick.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
chirp! chirp! Ok let me continue.
The discussion we should be having is not whether Berbers are primarily African . Undoubtedly they are. The discussion should be:
-What are the male counterpart to H1 and H3 -Is it really R1b-M269? Why? -Are the molecular clocks synchronized for mtDNA and y-DNA? There are differences in methodology on calculating mutation rate. See my thread on ESR on Oldest African man- A00. There are three popular methods leading to 3 different clocks/ages.
Where am I going with this? We will see..for another thread.
Getting back to the Saharawi's, Beyoku's cherished Berbers, But I admit I am partial to the Mazab Berbers, either way they are the two most non-European Berber groups based upon autosomal SNP data published by DNATrbies using several hundred thousand genetic markers IIRC both are the only Berber group that have 0% of so called European SNP!!!
Do anyone see the perplexity here? Looking at it holistically. Remember the Mazabites also have a higher frequency of the "so-called" Neanderthal genetic material than Europeans as do East Asians. As posted in another thread.
So let us summarize: Saharawi's has 0% "European classified" autosomal SNP, but has the highest male and female Sub-Saharan lineage of all Berbers, carry African STR(CODIS/Forensic) like other Berbers, and some "European" mtDNA lineages, has the highest frequency of male R-V88 of ALL Berber groups, absolutely zero R-M269, has the oldest form(basal) of mtDNA hg-V/HV. More so than Europeans. Carry the highest frequency of the said mtDNA group. The highest frequency of mtDNA hg-V OUTSIDE of Africa is found immeduately next to the Saharawis in Iberia(Basque). Iberia(Basque) is "proclaimed" to be the source of most European male and female lineage originating via the Refugium. Get the picture(pardon the pon Lioness)? I agree with Beyoku on this. The Saharawi's Berbers are indeed special!!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Oh and Lioness, I don't think Sage is agreeing with me. If I read him correctly Sage is Sahelian and taking his feud with the Amazigh personally. He is reluctant to accept light skinned Tunisians as a continental. But he is still my Africanist brotha.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
you say "migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated"
Before that point, in the middle of the LGM when temerpatures dropped to ice age conditions where did the people who had been living in Northern and Central Europe go?
xyyman says the same thing about the Refugium in many posts yet when asked he can never explain what he thinks happened to the people in Europe. He has no credibility on this topic. It's useless to say one theory is wrong and then never to have a theory which explains "what really happened"
.
Substituting N&C Europe for north Morocco in regards to central and south Iberia and is a bait and switch diversion.
There was no ice between C&S Iberia and N Maroc during the LGM to impede travel hence Refugium Theory does not apply to C&S Iberia and N Maroc movement.
So saying H1'3 came to N Afr as a result of refugia emptying from north Iberia doesn't hold because the N Ibr movement was into C&N Europe which was previously impeded by LGM conditions.
Simple logic but unthought of until Xyyman, afaik.
One proof of this is African absence of immediate post-LGM uniparentals that spread thru Europe. No? (All should know I lost all my genetics studies and notes and am going only from memory -- which can be hazy or colored -- so anybody please inform and correct me where and if I'm against established fact.)
The whole of central and south Iberia, Corsica, Sardinaia, the Apennine & Balkan peninsulas, and Anatolia along with littoral North Africa from Morocco to Tunisia was one big refugium.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Oh and Lioness, I don't think Sage is agreeing with me. If I read him correctly Sage is Sahelian and taking his feud with the Amazigh personally. He is reluctant to accept light skinned Tunisians as a continental. But he is still my Africanist brotha.
.
No I do not share Diop's Senegalese antipathy for Mauritania's Arab Berbers. Of course all native Maghrebis are African whatever their skin colour. However, matters on the table show they mentally align with non-Africans and don't have African affairs at heart that apply to anywhere else except the northern 3rd of the continent.
The problem lies with so-called Amazigh activists.
Day to day I interface with Jews and Muslims from North Africa without any squabble. For example; going through religious certification (to be simultaneously kasher and halal) for a restaurant to be owned by a guy whose mother is a N Afr Jew while his father is a Palestinian Muslim and the co-partner is a Moroccan Muslim who refuses choosing between being Arab or Berber -- the guy somehow felt the need to apologize to me for his off-white complexion foisting it off on European grandmothers.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukuler still hasn't consolidated the numbers and tried to make a case with the raw genetic data.
What was it the old joke said? "Patience jackass patience."
I explained yesterday about why I haven't posted it yet.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Bookmarked thread. Good job Tukuler.
All for you and yours!
Best to save threads you really like because you never know if they'll get the axe.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
TypeZeiss is welcome to post whatever he wants to.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: typeZeiss the theme of this thread is not when the ancestry of the berbers became the way it is today.
The theme is are the berbers on average more African than not African.
Tukuler and xyyman think that the average berber when you combine all the various berber groups as whole is primarily African. Do you agree?
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles
There was a Tukuler post quoting a peer recviewed article originally posted by Troll Patrol.
You posted no peer reviewed articles on this page or the first page of the thread.
Why are you saying you posted peer reviewed articles when you did not post any peer reviewed articles?
I posted the names of peer reviewed articles. I can not post the actual articles as they are on jstor and without a account, the link would be useless to anyone here.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: typeZeiss the theme of this thread is not when the ancestry of the berbers became the way it is today.
The theme is are the berbers on average more African than not African.
Tukuler and xyyman think that the average berber when you combine all the various berber groups as whole is primarily African. Do you agree?
I understand the theme, but origins play heavily into this. Devils like you would want to try and argue that those European features 50% of the people in the North display i.e. white skin and such is indigenous to North Africa based on some DNA argument, and that just doesn't work. There are to many other factors in that equation.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Bookmarked thread. Good job Tukuler.
All for you and yours!
Best to save threads you really like because you never know if they'll get the axe.
Is there a special way of saving threads?
All I do is bookmark.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There is a great peer reviewed paper called "What happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun" written by Dr. Richard L Smith. He quotes a number of sources, dating back to about 500 BCE, which describe nothing but BLACK Africans living in North Africa. Then about 1100 AD Ibn Khaldoun describes one of the Sanhaja tribes is being bayda “whites” and the rest as blacks (suda). Ibn Khaldoun in his description even states the Black tribes of the Sanhaja are believed to be the original group and the whites looked like that because they were in the north and thus their skin became white. A silly notion indeed, but still shows that North Africa in ancient times, up until recently was dominated by blacks.
There is a good peer reviewed paper titled “Judaic Threads in the West African Tapestry: No More Forever?” by Dr. Labelle Prussin.
My mistake, you did mention these two references in your earlier post inside a larger paragrah. usually people have it as a separate line and link but OK, you did refer to them although not quoting
I will look into them if I can
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Devils like you would want to try and argue that those European features 50% of the people in the North display i.e. white skin and such is indigenous to North Africa based on some DNA argument, and that just doesn't work.
^^^ as I predicted discussion ensues and the word "North African" is assumed synomous with "berber".
Ok, we'll go along with that for a moment
typeZeiss' position is that 50% of North Africa is white.
His argument is disputing the reason for it
xyyman's Tukular's position is that North Africa is primarily African, more than 50%,
although "African" and "white" are not the only categories to describe all the people
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Bookmarked thread. Good job Tukuler.
All for you and yours!
Best to save threads you really like because you never know if they'll get the axe.
Is there a special way of saving threads?
All I do is bookmark.
Use screen capture software which enables scrolling while capturing. I use 'Snagit'. That way you can capture lengthy vertical documents, which in this case would be thread pages, and convert them into JPG/PNG/Gif etc. images.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There is a great peer reviewed paper called "What happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun" written by Dr. Richard L Smith.
oddly over the whole 42 pages the Vandals are mentioned yet Phoenicians aren't
.
what's up with these Libyans?_______________________________________^^^^ You sometimes see them portrayed as reddish brown color and straight long hair but there are also many with a yellowish biege color like this and it's 3000 years ago around 1150 BC.
they look like berbers, in many cases depicted as much lighter than Egyptians
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Here is the visual(pic) aid for those who need it. MtDNA V the sibling of H. is oldest in the Saharawis and other Berbers. HV, the upstream clade is highest in Berber notably the Saharawis also. Saharawis also carry the highest percentage of Sub-Saharan lineage of Berbers. They carry the highest frequency of Cameroonian R-V88.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
typical xyyman doctored chart with no source link
Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.
Ann Hum Genet. 2004 May;68(Pt 3):222-33. Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Plaza S, Calafell F, Ben
_________________________________
PLOS Genetics 2012
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,
We used the Saharawi as our proxy Maghrebi population, since the high relatedness in the Tunisian samples is likely to cause reduced ability to infer Maghrebi tracts in more diverse populations. Our sample of Tunisian Berbers retains the highest amount of Maghrebi ancestry, without substantial evidence of admixture with sub-Saharan, European or Near Eastern populations.
MDS component 3 differentiates populations thought to have a high degree of autochthonous ancestry [i.e. Tunisian Berbers and Saharawi] from populations outside of Africa. Interestingly, the MDS component 3 appears to be largely independent of the amount of sub-Saharan ancestry [Figure 2B] and North Africans are dispersed along the MDS component 3 axis, with the Tunisian Berbers occupying the extreme end of this gradient.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Haplogroup V is a relatively rare mtDNA haplogroup found in approximately 4% of native Europeans.[4] Its highest concentration is among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia (approximately 59%), where its divergence time is estimated at 7600 YBP (years before present). It has been found at approximately 10% among the Maris of the Volga-Ural region, leading to the suggestion that this region might be the source of the V among the Saami.[5]
Haplogroup V is also found at higher than average levels in Cantabrian people (15%)[6] of northern Iberia, and somewhat lower in nearby Basque people (10.4%).[7] It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia
___________________________________
A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia
Published online 2005 March 24. PMCID: PMC1199377 Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1 Maria Pala,1 Anna Olivieri,1 Simona Fornarino,1 Chiara Magri,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Nora Babudri,3 A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,4 Ornella Semino,1 and Antonio Torroni1 Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a)—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al.Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The whole of central and south Iberia, Corsica, Sardinaia, the Apennine & Balkan peninsulas, and Anatolia along with littoral North Africa from Morocco to Tunisia was one big refugium.
[/QB]
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,
Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Simon Gravel, Wei Wang Abra Brisbin. Jake K. Byrnes, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid,Pierre A. Zalloua,
Abstract
North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data [730,000 sites] from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago [approximately 1,200 ya]; a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago [approximately 750 ya]. Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa.
_______________________________________________
^^^ It doesn't matter if you agree with the hypothesis. They are talking about 12,000 yeras ago, well before "historical data" in the region.
It is prehistoric, so this is where genetics and archaeology comes in.
The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–
This is far before history, It's prehistoric, Reality doesn't start when somebody first writes something down or you happen to find some ancient writing.
Anyway even the Egyptians record Asiatics with straight hair and skin lighter than theirs, non-Africans in North Africa further back than 1100 AD.
In fact further back than 1100 BC !
These are part of the root of the berbers [/QB]
Hi there,
I am going to ask you the same as before.
Where are the site scenes of these / those remains, you are claiming, to have come back from Eurasia?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
This is an Algerian berber.
They are said to have E-M81 frequencies of over 80% Y DNA
There is no way of knowing if he has this level of M81
Suppose he does.
It is possible that E-M81 produces a person that has features that people might think look more similar to Europeans than other Africans even though it might be a completely African haplogroup. I'm not sure about this. Also the hair. Is E-M81 associated with afro kinky hair or another type of hair or cannot be correlated to hair. I don't know
Therefore if you look at the person above and ask "does he look African? " and someone says "no" or "half" they have to justify it, why not.
Hmmmmmm
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: True, the mean frequency of M81 in North Africa is 42% not 100% Notably the Siwa are only 1.1% M81
The sign of a MENTALY ill person.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages
Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia
Lioness, beginning to understand what your saying Euros DO have more E M81.
When you look at some North Africans, Some look like Euros then you realize that E M81 is an majority European gene (there is a answer on both sides of the coin, sometimes both answers are right or wrong or one side is right and the other wrong)
What separates A person like Zinedine Zidane from Zarkhozy?
M81 is a unique African haplogroup not believed to have originated in Europe. It's frequenices are very high in the Mahgreb but moderate to low in Europe and Sub Saharan Africa
This is way too funny.
As a matter of fact West Saharans have the highest frequency of E-M81. Which historically logical. It was already posted and explained only one month ago.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Haplogroup V is a relatively rare mtDNA haplogroup found in approximately 4% of native Europeans.[4] Its highest concentration is among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia (approximately 59%), where its divergence time is estimated at 7600 YBP (years before present). It has been found at approximately 10% among the Maris of the Volga-Ural region, leading to the suggestion that this region might be the source of the V among the Saami.[5]
Haplogroup V is also found at higher than average levels in Cantabrian people (15%)[6] of northern Iberia, and somewhat lower in nearby Basque people (10.4%).[7] It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia
___________________________________
A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia
Published online 2005 March 24. PMCID: PMC1199377 Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1 Maria Pala,1 Anna Olivieri,1 Simona Fornarino,1 Chiara Magri,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Nora Babudri,3 A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,4 Ornella Semino,1 and Antonio Torroni1 Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a)—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al.Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The whole of central and south Iberia, Corsica, Sardinaia, the Apennine & Balkan peninsulas, and Anatolia along with littoral North Africa from Morocco to Tunisia was one big refugium.
[/QB]
You and the author completely forgot about Saami people being enslaved by the Vikings, and taken to Northwest Africa. This included many Central Europeans as well. Who historically relate to the Saami.
What a bummer.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
Prehistoric Iberia 2000, pp 125-162
Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.
Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81
-and don't give me any prose quotes, we have the numbers
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You ignore history. LAgain, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
"Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. People of various backgrounds become berbers. Brown skinned straight haired Phoenicians from the Middle East and relatively darker Southern Europeans and Levantines have been coming into North Africa for much longer than you are claiming to times well before Christ. It is easily observed and recorded in Egyptian art. These people all mix together and with some indigenous Africans and are the berbers. "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. It is by nature a mixture of people whose ancestors may have had different nationalities long ago. They are all called "berbers" because berber is a language and culture.
there is no language called Berber so wrong there. Berbers are not one homogenous group nor do they have common origin, wrong there again. Berbers are not necessarily nomad either.
As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles and you provide a barrage of googled photos of things, of which you can not prove their origin. You then follow up with a bunch of assumptions, which I can only assume have their origins in your fantasy? You typing your on educated opinions, doesn't make it a fact. You ignore my question and I will repeat it again, WHAT DID THE GREEKS SAY THE PHOENICIANS LOOKED LIKE? You in 2014 can never trump the account of people who were there during the events. [/QB]
It's funny how this lioness individual is making up stuff. I how no idea where it all is coming from.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.
Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81
-and don't give me any prose quotes, we have the numbers
You are posting from Wikipedia, you dumbass.
Such retard it's beyond anything.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Tukuler you need to train Troll to edit. He posts for long posts of mine 4 in a row , that have already been read in order to make one or two sentence comments. This is what makes your thread or anybody else thread unpelasant to read, because he does this all the time. I don't need a hype man. Charlie Bass already scolded him about following me around like a puppy dog, in knee jerk mode, reacting to my every last word.
On the other hand that may have been the thing you were waiting for, back up, LOL
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.
Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81
-and don't give me any prose quotes, we have the numbers
You are posting from Wikipedia, you dumbass.
Such retard it's beyond anything.
asshole, it's from wikipedia with primarily article refereces listed and in my post
idiot because an article is quoted in wikipedia does not void the article becasue it's in wikipedia, I warned you already about being stupid, you are a troll trying to instigate hostility just like Charlie observed
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.
Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81
-and don't give me any prose quotes, we have the numbers
You are posting from Wikipedia, you dumbass.
Such retard it's beyond anything.
asshole, it's from wikipedia with primarily article refereces listed and in my post
idiot because an article is quoted in wikipedia does not void the article becasue it's in wikipedia, I warned you already about being stupid, you are a troll trying to instigate hostility just like Charlie observed
Usually wiki articles are tweaked, and lied about. Something you're specialized in doing.
Numbskull, see....your theory is again obsolete. Because archeological and anthropology say something else.
Topology Atlas || Conferences
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukuler you need to train Troll to edit. He posts for long posts of mine 4 in a row , that have already been read in order to make one or two sentence comments. This is what makes your thread or anybody else thread unpelasant to read, because he does this all the time. I don't need a hype man. Charlie Bass already scolded him about following me around like a puppy dog, in knee jerk mode, reacting to my every last word.
On the other hand that may have been the thing you were waiting for, back up, LOL
You are a funny lying racist piece of shyt.
The Uan Muhuggia Mummy
quote:For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.
Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.
The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.
The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
quote:The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
quote:The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
quote:These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
quote: Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
--Paul C. Sereno
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: You and the author completely forgot about Saami people being enslaved by the Vikings, and taken to Northwest Africa. This included many Central Europeans as well. Who historically relate to the Saami.
What a bummer.
Ok so the Siwi are part Lapp. U5b
the slaves brought to Africa story sounds like bullcrap, what's your flimsy source on that?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
look at him, he's going into to his Gobero/Muhuggia mega file,read the shyt like 50 times mass info dump, thread disabled
Ish Geboring aka, Info Dump
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: look at him, he's going into to his Gobero/Muhuggia mega file,read the shyt like 50 times mass info dump, thread disabled
Ish Geboring aka, Info Dump
FUNNY, since we have read your shyt over 50 times. Typical Eurocentric racist reasoning.
Yes, it's you who has been posting the same studies for over 50 times. And have been asked for over 50 times to provide anthropologic and archeological evidence of what you've claimed as back migrations. Info dump.
Unfortunate thusfar there has been non, for 4 years straight.
So until that time I'll keep reposting and responding to you with these same studies. As a rebuttal.
All these studies speak of mist rations out of Africa, by small pockets of people.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So until that time I'll keep reposting and responding to you with these same studies. As a rebuttal.
^^^ whatever I do , he does
Troll, keep posting "FUNNY" in capital letters
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So until that time I'll keep reposting and responding to you with these same studies. As a rebuttal.
^^^ whatever I do , he does
Troll, keep posting "FUNNY" in capital letters
No, not really. There is a difference you lie and make up shyt, whereas I do actual field search and debunk you.
Now that's FUNNY.
quote: Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18],[26],[27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb:
quote: *Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)(2008)
For your comparison:
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: You and the author completely forgot about Saami people being enslaved by the Vikings, and taken to Northwest Africa. This included many Central Europeans as well. Who historically relate to the Saami.
What a bummer.
Ok so the Siwi are part Lapp. U5b
the slaves brought to Africa story sounds like bullcrap, what's your flimsy source on that?
Of course it sound flimsy and like bullcrap in your Eurocentric ears, slaves a only could have come from Africa, right? lol
Also, some Central Europeans relate to Saami's. We also know Central Europeans have taken to Northern Africa as slaves.
Vikings been to Northern Africa, and had Saami slaves. Saamis are simple huntergatherers.
You completely fail to prove physical evidence of your theory and so did the author you've cited.
Typical Euronut, believing in white supremacy.
And the fact remains that you still haven't been able to post any valid archeology and anthropology back migration to Africa, it all shows migration out if Africa by small pockets of people.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ no source
^^^ see this ? Troll posts it in every thread. He's posted it over 50 times
It;s called OCD
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ no source
^^^ see this ? Troll posts it in every thread. He's posted it over 50 times
It;s called OCD
Yes, I've posted this every time where and when you posted back migration into Africa. And what it shows is migration from the South into North by indigenous African people.
And since you claimed to have seen it in every thread, why you still need the source or link?
See that's how dumb you are! Since I have posted the link many times before, over 50 times as you claim, shows you're trolling the forum and this thread without being able to back up what you claim in physical evidence.
What a bummer!
All I do now is re-slap you in the face. Having FUN.
And the fact remains that you still haven't been able to post any valid archeology and anthropology back migration to Africa, it all shows migration out if Africa by small pockets of people.
The Middle Holocene climatic transition
quote:
The Middle Holocene, and more precisely the period from around 6400 BP and 5000 BP, was a period of profound environmental change, during which the global climate underwent a systematic reorganisation as the warm, humid post-glacial climate of the Early Holocene gave way to a climatic configuration broadly similar to that of today (Brooks, 2010; Mayewski et al., 2004). The most prominent manifestations of this transition were a cooling at middle and high latitudes and high altitudes (Thompson et al., 2006), a transition from relatively humid to arid conditions in the NHST (Brooks, 2006, 2010; deMenocal et al., 2000) and the establishment of a regular El Niño after a multimillennial period during which is was rare or absent (Sandweiss et al., 2007). This “Middle Holocene Climatic Transition” (MHCT) represented a stepwise acceleration of climatic trends that had commenced in the 9th millennium BP in some regions (Jung et al., 2004), and entailed a long-term shift towards cooler and more arid conditions, punctuated by episodes of abrupt climatic change. Around 6400–6300 BP, palaeo-environmental evidence indicates abrupt lake recessions and increased aridity in northern Africa, western Asia, South Asia and northern China, and the advance of glaciers in Europe and elsewhere (Damnati, 2000; Enzel et al., 1999; Jung et al., 2004; Linstädter & Kröpelin, 2004; Mayewski et al., 2004; Zhang et al., 2000).
Ocean records suggest a cold-arid episode around 5900 BP (Bond et al., 1997), followed in the Sahara by an abrupt shift to aridity around 5800–5700 BP, evident in terrestrial records from the Libyan central Sahara and marine records from the Eastern Tropical Atlantic (Cremaschi, 2002; di Lernia, 2002; deMenocal et al., 2000). From about 5800–5700 BP to 5200–5000 BP, aridification intensified in the Sahara (deMenocal et al., 2000), South Asia (Enzel et al., 1999), north-central China (Zhang et al., 2000; Xiao et al., 2004) and the Arabian Peninsula (Parker et al., 2006). Over the same period, drought conditions prevailed in the Eastern Medi- terranean (Bar-Matthews & Ayalon, 2011), the Zagros Mountains of Iran (Stevens et al., 2006) and County Mayo in Ireland (Caseldine et al., 2005), while river flow into the Cariaco Basin of northern South America decreased (Haug et al., 2001). An abrupt cold-arid epi- sode around 5200 BP is evident in environmental records from Europe, Africa, western Asia, China and South America, (Caseldine et al., 2005; Gasse, 2002; Magny & Haas, 2004; Parker et al., 2006; Thompson et al., 1995). The above evidence indicates that the MHCT was associated with a weakening of monsoon systems across the globe, and the southward retreat of monsoon rains in the NHST (Lézine, 2009). However, these changes coin- cided with climatic reorganisation outside of the global monsoon belt, as indicated by the onset of El Niño and evidence of large changes in climate at middle and high latitudes. The ultimate driving force behind these changes was a decline in the intensity of summer solar radiation outside the tropics, resulting from long-term changes in the angle of the Earth’s axis of rotation relative to its orbital plane. This was translated into abrupt changes in climate by non-linear feedback processes within the climate system (Brooks, 2004; deMenocal et al., 2000; Kukla & Gavin, 2004).
[...]
In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@TP. I doing more anthropological research in West Africa. Got anything on this:
Quote: Interestingly, the Mbo live less than 800 km away from a Nigerian site known as Iwo Eleru, where human skeletal remains with both archaic and modern features were found and dated to ~13 kya.47 Further
Apparently a similar skeleton was found in the Congo.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @TP. I doing more anthropological research in West Africa. Got anything on this:
Quote: Interestingly, the Mbo live less than 800 km away from a Nigerian site known as Iwo Eleru, where human skeletal remains with both archaic and modern features were found and dated to ~13 kya.47 Further
^Trollkillah you have hit the nail on the head, Eurocentrist use genetics to support Eurocentrism because the dating of this or that haplogroup is based on conjecture via statistical models. As a result, the ancient DNA, fails to support the statistical models they have proposed for the alledged back migrations.
Archaeological dating on the otherhand, has better dating methods which have been supported by carbon dating methods. This along with, linguistics, can provide reliable dating of ancient events.
the population genetic statistical models are unreliable because they project amh in Europe when the region was settled by Neanderthals. Because Europe was not occuipied by amh when the so called European haplogroups alledgedly ,originated and migrated back into Africa, these haplogroups had to have originated in Africa and taken into Europe.
.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^Trollkillah you have hit the nail on the head, Eurocentrist use genetics to support Eurocentrism because the dating of this or that haplogroup is based on conjecture via statistical models. As a result, the ancient DNA, fails to support the statistical models they have proposed for the alledged back migrations.
Archaeological dating on the otherhand, has better dating methods which have been supported by carbon dating methods. This along with, linguistics, can provide reliable dating of ancient events.
the population genetic statistical models are unreliable because they project amh in Europe when the region was settled by Neanderthals. Because Europe was not occuipied by amh when the so called European haplogroups alledgedly ,originated and migrated back into Africa, these haplogroups had to have originated in Africa and taken into Europe.
.
As a matter of fact these folks simply copy each other or and use, racist, outdated based models from the 18th-19th century.
This lioness person seems a for frontier in this.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I agree they try to not rock the boat. I assume to keep the research funds coming in. If you read between the lines they are struggling within/between themselves. Maintaning the status quo and revealing the truth.
To those that read and understaood the Henn et al and Comas et al paper . Comas on" Pillars of Hercules… bidirection " paper, both have similarities.
All Henn did was prove that there was some genetic similarity(K5?iirc) between Bahrain and North Africans. She specially said there was none between the Syrians, Iraq, Isrealies etc. Irregardless of the visual similarities seen on TV they were NOT the Source population. In her paper she provided no genetic proof of the "direction' of the migration with Bahrain. Instead she relied on speculation by "other authors" on the direction of migration stating it was INTO Africa from Bahrain. She then did a CYA by essentially remarkingg that to be definitely sure more reliable genetic data needs to be provide ie STR, yDNA, mtDNA. We know the result on PN2 already. She also made it clear it was NOT continous but happened one time about 35,000 ya. IF IT REALLY HAPPENED. The title is misleading.
In another paper she then went on to provide proof that the North Africans migrated to Southern Europe during pre-history. Rightly she based this on the long SNP sequences found in southern Europe vs the short sequences found in North Africa. She specifically said it was NOT the other way around. She did no such comparison in her infamous "backmigration" paper.
In the Comas/Calafell paper, the title is also misleading. Comas provide data confirming the "source" of mtDNA HV/V was N/NW Africa and NOT Europe. No data was provided of the "middle east or Levant". More importantly he did not provide any evidence of ANY genetic material flowing into Africa from Europe yet also did a CYA by having in the title "bidirectional". In this case he is protecting himself from the rabid Euro centrics.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^Trollkillah you have hit the nail on the head, Eurocentrist use genetics to support Eurocentrism because the dating of this or that haplogroup is based on conjecture via statistical models. As a result, the ancient DNA, fails to support the statistical models they have proposed for the alledged back migrations.
Archaeological dating on the otherhand, has better dating methods which have been supported by carbon dating methods. This along with, linguistics, can provide reliable dating of ancient events.
the population genetic statistical models are unreliable because they project amh in Europe when the region was settled by Neanderthals. Because Europe was not occuipied by amh when the so called European haplogroups alledgedly ,originated and migrated back into Africa, these haplogroups had to have originated in Africa and taken into Europe.
.
Clyde the theme of the thread is are the berbers of today, all the groups together , on average primarily African?
what is your opinion?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Partol the theme of the thread is are the berbers of today, all the groups together , on average primarily African?
what is your opinion?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Partol the theme of the thread is are the berbers of today, all the groups together , on average primarily African?
what is your opinion?
You have asked me this 50 times and I have responded to you 49 times already.
I will repeat it once more. The Tamazigh see themselves as indigenous people of Africa. They do know that invasions have taken place by foreign people to Africa.
The Tamazights origin is from the South, as they moved up to the North. Primarily a northwest Africa. This is what archeology, anthropology and linguistics show.
In recent times the Tamazight came in contact with foreign people due to the location. This is what genetics shows. What genetics archeology and anthropology also shows is that small pockets of Africans migrated out of Africa, into Southern Europe. Later on the Levant and the oldest route the Horn of Africa-Yemen.
There no evidence of back migrations during the Neolithic etc...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Partol the theme of the thread is are the berbers of today, all the groups together , on average primarily African?
what is your opinion?
You have asked me this 50 times and I have responded to you 49 times already.
I will repeat it once more. The Tamazigh see themselves as indigenous people of Africa. They do know that invasions have taken place by foreign people to Africa.
The Tamazights origin is from the South, as they moved up to the North. Primarily a northwest Africa. This is what archeology, anthropology and linguistics show.
In recent times the Tamazight came in contact with foreign people due to the location. This is what genetics shows. What genetics archeology and anthropology also shows is that small pockets of Africans migrated out of Africa, into Southern Europe. Later on the Levant and the oldest route the Horn of Africa-Yemen.
There no evidence of back migrations during the Neolithic etc...
I didn't ask you what their origin was or what they claim to be
I am asking is
1) is the DNA of all the berbers in North Africa today in 2014, on average, primarily African in origin?
2) is the DNA of all Maghrebians in Africa today in 2014 , on average, primarily African in origin?
3) What percentage of the Maghreb + Sahel + Egypt as a whole is berber ?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Corrections, Qatar not Bahrain on Henn.
After 1500ce very few populations are "pure". Primarily ?...yes!!!!
If, no, what is the foreign genetic component? YDNA J2 maybe be the only genetic component . J2 is NOT widely dispersed throughout NA. But localized in the three major cities location. Cairo, Tunis and Casablanca? Also aligning with DNAtribes SNP data . J1 is ancient in Africa see relevant threads.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape Asmahan Bekada 2013
Rosa Fregel, Vicente M. Cabrera, José M. Larruga, José Pestano, Soraya Benhamamouch, Ana M. González mail
Abstract
North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident. The presence of East-West and North-South haplogroup frequency gradients strongly reinforces the genetic complexity of this region. However, this genetic scenario is beset with a notable gap, which is the lack of consistent information for Algeria, the largest country in the Maghreb. To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA [U6 and M1; 20%] is significantly smaller than the paternal [E-M81 and E-V65; 70%]. The unexpected presence of the European-derived Y-chromosome lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb could be the counterparts of the mtDNA H1, H3 and V subgroups, pointing to direct maritime contacts between the European and North African sides of the western Mediterranean. Female influx of sub-Saharan Africans into Algeria [20%] is also significantly greater than the male [10%]. In spite of these sexual asymmetries, the Algerian uniparental profiles faithfully correlate between each other and with the geography.
Interestingly, wide geographical longitudinal gradients are detectable overlying local microstructure in North Africa for several uniparental markers [15], [17], [26], [27]. Some of these lineages, such as the mtDNA haplogroups U6 [28]–[30], M1 [29], [31], [32] and X1 [33] had their ancestral roots in the Middle East but expanded in North Africa since Paleolithic times with instances of secondary dispersion in this area. Others, like sub-haplogroup U5b1b [34], sub-haplogroups H1 and H3 [20], [35], [36] and haplogroup V [37] seem to have reached North Africa from Iberia in a post-last glacial maximum expansion. In concordance, an ancient DNA study from Ibero-Maurusian bone remains from Taforalt in Morocco detected the presence of haplogroups U6, V, T and probably H, pointing to a Paleolithic genetic continuity in Northwest Africa [38]. Additionally, male lineages also provide support to a Paleolithic Asia to Africa back migration [39] with Holocene trans-Saharan spreads as testified by the haplogroup R-V88 distribution [40]. Other lineages, E-M81 [26] and E- M78 [41], seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas. The presence of these clades in southwestern Europe has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts without involving the Levant [41], [42].
In comparison with other Mediterranean and west Asian samples, the H haplogroup subdivision in the Algerian sample shows a typical Maghreb population structure [Supplementary Table S4]. Congruently, the most common western subgroups, H1 [47.8%] and H3 [10.1%], represent 60% of H lineages. Furthermore, the H1 frequency in Algeria is intermediate between that found in Morocco [51.6%] and Tunisia [29.4%], fitting the eastward-decreasing gradient previously observed for this subgroup [36]. Thus, for the H haplogroup, Algerian affinities with the East seem to be weaker than with the West. Subgroups H2a1, H4 and H13a1 account for 42% of H lineages in Egypt but only 6% in Algeria [Supplementary Table S4]. In addition, such a characteristic subgroup of the Arabian Peninsula as H6b [13%] was not found in our Algerian sample.
Results for the sub-typing of haplogroups E-M78 and R-M343 in the Iberian Peninsula and Northwest African countries including Algeria are presented in Figure 1. In general, data for E-M78 agree with the previous analysis [41]. Therefore, the Eurasian E-V13 is the most common sub-group in Iberia, although one North African E-V65 type has also been detected. On the African side, the lack of E-M78 representatives in a total sample of 189 males from the W. Saharan-Mauritanian area is notable. For the Maghreb countries, the fact that the number of males belonging to para-group E-M78* is the same as those included in the autochthonous E-V65 group also stands out.
For the R-M343 subdivision, the Iberian Peninsula reflects a genuine European profile [45] except for the presence of one Sahel R-V88 type. In contrast, all R-M343 detected in W. Saharan-Mauritanian belong to sub-group R-V88, reaching a frequency of 7%, similar to those observed in other Sahel samples [40]. In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%. On the other hand, the presence in this area of representatives of the European sub-groups R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 points to North-South maritime contacts across the Mediterranean.
The most influential haplogroups in the first component separation are: E-M81, E-V65 and R-V88 that pull the North African countries together, and J-M172, R-M173, R-M17, R-M124 and R-L23 that pull West Asian countries in the opposite direction. In the second component, haplogroups R-L11, R-M529, R-U198, I-M223 and I-M26 are responsible for the spread of the European Mediterranean countries away from Egypt and Arabia, which in turn are pulled by J-M267, B-M60, E-V22 and E-M123.
The presence in Algeria of a rare U5b2b3 haplotype, of Eastern Europe adscription, could be explained as result of the Ottoman influence. Although Algeria and W. Sahara-Mauritania show the highest frequencies for mtDNA haplogroup U6 in the Maghreb, division into subgroups reveals that whereas the majority of U6 haplotypes in W. Sahara-Mauritania [7.6%] are included in the ancestral cluster U6a, the bulk in Algeria [9.4%] belongs to derived subgroups U6a1′2′3 [Supplementary Table S2]. Similarly, although Algeria [7.3%] and Egypt [8.5%] present the highest frequencies of the North African haplogroup M1, subdivision of this cluster shows clear phylogeographic differences; whereas 6.4% of the Egyptian lineages belong to the East African cluster M1a1, none M1a1 was found in the Algerian sample [Figure 3]. These patterns are congruent with the existence of different origin of geographic spread for both haplogroups in the Maghreb and East Africa [28], [31]. Contrastingly, for the Y-chromosome North African autochthonous lineages E-V65 and E-M81, Algeria shows the lowest frequencies of all Maghreb countries [Supplementary Table S6]. However, E-M81 frequencies in Algeria [44.2%] are still significantly higher [p<0.0001] than in Egypt [11.9%]. These results confirm that for both uniparental markers, Egypt and to a lesser extent Libya stand out sharply from the Maghreb [16], [27].
Y-chromosome haplogroup J-M267 frequency is also the highest in Algeria. The presence of this clear Middle Eastern haplogroup in other areas has been attributed to prehistoric spreads [25], [79] and to the historic Islamic rule [15]. The localized distribution of the two most common haplotypes found in Algerians belonging to J1-M267 [44] points to an ancient implantation of this cluster in the country. However, the notable incidence of J2-M67 is most probably due to Aegean contacts [79], [80].
The unexpected presence of the European male lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in the Mahgreb could be the male counterpart of the maternal gene flow signaled by the mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3 and HV0. In fact, there are several haplogroups with clear geographical origins from European or North African sides of the Mediterranean, but also present on the opposite side. This could be used to estimate the respective levels of gene flow between areas, assuming that their present day frequencies in the source countries were the same when they spread to the other Mediterranean shore. Thus, mean frequency values for the native North African male clusters E-M81 and E-V65 in the Maghreb [Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya], are 40.03±11.66 and 3.40±0.60 respectively. The mean values for the same markers in western-central Mediterranean Europe [Iberian Peninsula, France and Corsica, Italy, Sardinia and Sicily] are 1.86±1.28 and 0.26±0.8 respectively. Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. Applying the same reasoning, mtDNA U6 and M1 frequencies on the European side would indicate the maternal gene flow from the Maghreb, the estimated value being around 10%. However, when we tried to calculate the European maternal input into the Maghreb using the H1, H3 and HV0 haplogroups, we realized that their respective mean frequencies in Mediterranean Europe [38.33+4.31, 17.27+3.57 and 5.23+1.06] are within the same range as those found in the Maghreb [42.05+4.92, 13.1+3.51 and 6.99+0.90]. This would imply a 100% European contribution to the maternal pool of the Maghreb. The fact that the three markers show similar frequencies on both sides rules out stochastic processes as a possible explanation, but further analyses, based on complete mtDNA sequences, are mandatory to investigate alternative scenarios.
Recently, it has been reported that the sub-Saharan African gene flow to Tunisia shows a strong sex bias, involving a significantly larger female contribution [p<0.0001] [15]. The same tendency holds for all North African populations except Libya, which could be attributed to insufficient sampling [19]. However, significance levels are more moderate in all instances; for example, probability values in Algeria [0.025] or in W. Sahara-Mauritania [0.043] are two times lower than for Tunisia. The same sex bias is found in the Middle East, reaching significance in Arabia [p = 0.0005] and in the Caucasus [p = 0.045]. In Europe, only Italy shows significant differences [p<0.0001] for the gender contribution of sub-Saharan Africans but contrarily, in this case, the male input [3.91%] is highest than the female one [1.35%]. On the basis of uniparental markers [82]–[84] and massive genomic analysis [77], [85], the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Western Sahara 650,000
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You are either retired or a team. We discussed Bekada already. If iirc he tried to prove that the low frequency of yDNA R in NA were the males that accompanied the females into Africa. 20kya lol! But later resolution showed he was wrong the R was Cameroonian R-V88 and an insignificant amount if European yDNA. Less the 2%.
While sub Saharan yDNA in Algeria is close to 10%!!! The rest being indigenous
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape Asmahan Bekada 2013
Rosa Fregel, Vicente M. Cabrera, José M. Larruga, José Pestano, Soraya Benhamamouch, Ana M. González mail
Abstract
North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident.
, the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. [/b]
I am going as you again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
Where where where?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape Asmahan Bekada 2013
Rosa Fregel, Vicente M. Cabrera, José M. Larruga, José Pestano, Soraya Benhamamouch, Ana M. González mail
Abstract
North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident.
, the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. [/b]
I am going as you again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
Where where where?
Taforalt
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
If Paleolithic Eurasians went to the Maghreb and lived there 10,000 years it might be irrelevant because after the drying of the Sahara people left the region. However if they were there for 10,000 years they may have taken on some level of adapation
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If Paleolithic Eurasians went to the Maghreb and lived there 10,000 years it might be irrelevant because after the drying of the Sahara people left the region. However if they were there for 10,000 years they may have taken on some level of adapation
What is sure is that the modern Berber population is not representative of the very ancient population (around 10 000 years ago) that lived in the Maghreb.
I already explained why before in this thread. Modern Berbers are the product of a "recent" admixture of E-M81 carriers from East Africa and ancient MtDNA from Europe. Without considering more recent admixture... E-M81 is a pretty recent lineages in North Africa. They also don't have lot of E-M215 diversity (so they can't have been there for a long time or they were the product of a "recent" drastic bottleneck situation or both).
Wikipedia says E-M81 originated in North Africa like 5,600 years ago.
Before the admixture of E-M81 carriers with MtDNA HUV carriers, the population genetic structure of Berber was completely different.
I say "recent", but it's still 5,600 years ago. It's all relative.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
Taforalt
.
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: What is sure is that the modern Berber population is not representative of the very ancient population (around 10 000 years ago) that lived in the Maghreb.
I already explained why before in this thread. Modern Berbers are the product of a "recent" admixture of E-M81 carriers from East Africa and ancient MtDNA from Europe. Without considering more recent admixture... E-M81 is a pretty recent lineages in North Africa. They also don't have lot of E-M215 diversity (so they can't have been there for a long time or they were the product of a "recent" drastic bottleneck situation).
Wikipedia says E-M81 originated in North Africa like 5,600 years ago.
Before the admixture of E-M81 carriers with MtDNA HUV carriers, the population genetic structure of Berber was completely different.
I say "recent", but it's still 5,600 years ago. It's all relative. [/QB]
ANTHROPOLOGIE International Journal of Human Diversity and Evolution Coverage: 1923-1941 (Vols. I-XIX) & 1962-2013 (Vols. 1-51) ISSN 0323-1119
Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA.
Dr Rym KEFI and Dr Eliane BERAUD-COLOMB. U600 INSERM-FRE2059 CNRS Laboratoire d'Immunologie, Hôpital de Sainte-Marguerite- Marseille- France.
II- Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco).
Abstract The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region. Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.
Kefi's haplogroup assignments are biased because she omits many Hg L possibilities.
Also, if one literally does the math, one will see Kefi overlooks Taf VIII as African component but then slyly and covertly figures it into her total Eurasian component freq no way to get to 100% without counting Taf VIII.
Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb. [/QB]
I see 9.5% U6 which is not nothing.
haven't read the article but I did skim the powerpoint As per this one chart, it's mtDNA therefore anybody hell bent denying any African contribution would also have to deny that Y DNA analysis also showed minimal African contribution but I haven't seen such a claim. We see the same thing in modern berber populations. To say that current berber populations are primarily Eurasian, including significant European contribution as per mitochondrial DNA is reasonable. The Y DNA is primarily African (although lesser in Maghrebians as a whole, beyond just berbers).
But the point is that even if somebody does not like what they perceive to be bias in Kefi, we have this maternal data and if there is even less than majority Eurasian DNA, the fact is that there could be some European DNA input into Africa at 12,000 Bp or even 10kya contradicts the view of some ES members who think that only happend several thousand years more recently.
It supports the later Brenna Henn study
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Kefi's study is in French only. Have you read it?
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape Asmahan Bekada 2013
Rosa Fregel, Vicente M. Cabrera, José M. Larruga, José Pestano, Soraya Benhamamouch, Ana M. González mail
Abstract
North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident.
, the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. [/b]
I am going as you again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
Where where where?
Taforalt
What do you mean?
quote: In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.
-- Arensburg et al. 1995
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--Paul C. Sereno
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Published: August 14, 2008DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0002995
(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.
-- Arensburg et al. 1995
this is all you have.
Other scientists had noticed robusticity This 1995 paper says "possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time."
It sounds like something somebody might say about a mulatto. sombody who had African Y DNA. They don't even say "possibly sub Saharan African." They say "influences".
Yet their mtDNA is European/Eurasian
.
And if we take it to modern Maghrebians we find the same primary maternal haplogroups
.
So you have people part African and part Eurasian. You have the DNA in front of your face 12,000 Bp
You simply ignore the DNA because you don't like the idea of Europeans in Africa at that time. It offends you
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.
-- Arensburg et al. 1995
this is all you have.
Other scientists had noticed robusticity This 1995 paper says "possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time."
It sounds like something somebody might say about a mulatto. sombody who had African Y DNA. They don't even say "possibly sub Saharan African." They say "influences".
Yet their mtDNA is European/Eurasian
So you have people part African and part Eurasian. You have the DNA in front of your face 12,000 Bp
You simply ignore the DNA because you don't like the idea of Europeans in Africa at that time. It offends you
In fact there was and is more.
Here see for yourself.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--Paul C. Sereno
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Published: August 14, 2008DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0002995
(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
(NR. 2) WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
(NR. 2) WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
So my question is again, where is your evidence of physical remains of these supposed Eurasians in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa? And robust doesn't mean one can't be tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio,
All you've posted was some DNA sequences and frequencies. The physical remains are clustered with indigenous people from the South of the Sahara. Face this fact!
Wow. Just wow. Have we stumbled upon the elusive Neolithic E-M81 carrying Proto-Berber speakers?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:
From 1951 to 1955 the Abb6 J. Roche excavated the Mouillian layer in Taforalt Cave, 55 km. northwest of Oujda, Morocco. From it he removed 122 skeletons which Mlle. Ferembach has studied in impressive detail, describing every bone except the hyoid which, she states, has no racial significance. These skeletons represent a single local population living there between about 10,000 B.C. and 8,500 B.C. (C-14),some 50 generations. About 700 km. (470 mi.) away is Afalou bou Rhummel, an Algerian cave with an equally large collection. We now know more about the Mouillians than about anyone else in Africa except the Ancient Egyptians. About their predecessors we knew very little until the discovery of two skulls at Jebel Ighoud, Morocco, too late for her book.
The Taforalt folk were big and bony except for one dwarf. The men averaged 5’73” in stature (174cm.), the women 5’ 4” (162 cm.). They had large, craggy skulls, short, broad faces, broad noses rising deep below glabella, and massive jaws. Their trunks were not long, but the legs and forearms were, review of her book in Science, 8 May, 1964). Personally, I wish she had seen the Jebel Ighoud skulls before writing because, in my opinion, insofar as the Beni Taforalt differ from the Upper Paleolithic Europeans they do so mainly in the direction of their indigenous predecessors.
She points out that this was an inbred local population, with a 75 percent incidence of spina bifida and other sacral anomalies, many wormian bones, and a high infant mortality. Two-thirds of them died during their first two years of life. Of the adults, only two may have lived past 40. Jean nastugue shows that very few bones were pathological except for arthritis, and Marie-Jeanne Poitrat-Targloma that a t least 10 percent of the teeth show calcification trouble, presumably during the weaning crisis.
This book is a model of meticulous study of a most interesting prehistoric population for which the author and her colleagues are to be heartily congratulated. I know of nothing comparable in the literature of physical anthropology.
quote:Of the five Gamble's Cave skeletons, only two could be reconstructed, and this job was carried out in England after the material had been sent there from East Africa. Results were certainly far from perfect, owing to warping and crushing of the original bone, and further insult was to follow. The Royal College of Surgeons in London and the skeletal collections housed there received heavy bomb damage during World War II. So by the time that the skulls were transferred to the British Museum (Natural History) in 1948, they were scarcely in mint condition. Skull number 4 is the less well preserved of the two, and all of the base as well as a substantial portion of the facial skeleton are present only in plaster. Distortion renders this specimen quite unfit for measurement. Number 5 also lacks much of the skull base, and the missing parts have been heavily reconstructed. Although these skulls have been called non-Negro in morphology, the evidence is certainly far from clear cut, and any such diagnosis is questionable by virtue of the state of the material alone.
quote:The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery...
The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions...
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
--Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) (1975)
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.
--Eliška Podgorná et al.
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013
The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So my question is again, where is your evidence of physical remains of these supposed Eurasians in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa? And robust doesn't mean one can't be tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio,
Your mentality is of an either/or situation, you think either they were African or they were European
As with berbers of today, the DNA which you choose to ignore, indicates the western Maghreb Iberomaurusians were part African and part European.
The morphology is reflective of this and racial estimation of skeletal remains is limited and further obscured by cases of people with mixed ancestry.
Think if people in the future found the skeleton of Barak Obama but didn't know who he was. Some might conclude it's an African person, yet genteically Barack Obama is largely European on his mother side.
This is where DNA comes in. Taforalt skeletons were analyzed. They have several haplogroups which are believed to have originated outside of Africa. So as this sheds some light on the matter, you who often use genetic information to tryt to prove arguments all of the sudden completely disregard it when you don't personally like the results. that's bias.
The contemprary berbers have similar DNA profiles. If you look the Taforalts the have several Eurasian haplogroups. Somebody might try to argue over one. But there are more than just one and these are found in the specimens dating 12,000 Bp. This indcates at this time there were Eurasians in North Africa mixing with the locals. the Iberomaurusian period is 10,000 years and there are also likely changes within sub divisions of that time period.
Instead of dealing with the DNA you go looking for morphological information, simply because you personally like the result better. And looking at the information, opinion of particular researhers, it is not even that firm words like "influenced by" or "suggests" are used
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Samples for comparison
We used published HVS-I and complete L3 sequences for comparison.
Rito T, Richards MB, Fernandes V, Alshamali F, Cerny V, et al. (2013) The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa. PLoS ONE 8(11): e80031. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.008003
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So my question is again, where is your evidence of physical remains of these supposed Eurasians in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa? And robust doesn't mean one can't be tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio,
Your mentality is of an either/or situation, you think either they were African or they were European
As with berbers of today, the DNA which you choose to ignore, indicates the western Maghreb Iberomaurusians were part African and part European.
The morphology is reflective of this and racial estimation of skeletal remains is limited and further obscured by cases of people with mixed ancestry.
Think if people in the future found the skeleton of Barak Obama but didn't know who he was. Some might conclude it's an African person, yet genteically Barack Obama is largely European on his mother side.
This is where DNA comes in. Taforalt skeletons were analyzed. They have several haplogroups which are believed to have originated outside of Africa. So as this sheds some light on the matter, you who often use genetic information to tryt to prove arguments all of the sudden completely disregard it when you don't personally like the results. that's bias.
The contemprary berbers have similar DNA profiles. If you look the Taforalts the have several Eurasian haplogroups. Somebody might try to argue over one. But there are more than just one and these are found in the specimens dating 12,000 Bp. This indcates at this time there were Eurasians in North Africa mixing with the locals. the Iberomaurusian period is 10,000 years and there are also likely changes within sub divisions of that time period.
Instead of dealing with the DNA you go looking for morphological information, simply because you personally like the result better. And looking at the information, opinion of particular researhers, it is not even that firm words like "influenced by" or "suggests" are used
Your example of Barak Obama is a perfect example. If they do a genetic test on him they will find sequences of Eurasian DNA in a certain frequency in him. Yet, it's due to recent admixture. Not he lived 10.000 years ago.
Now, back to the actual facts.
The western Maghreb Iberomaurusians indicates they cluster with people from the South of the Sahara, like all other specimen from the region.
So, where are the remains of Eurasians in North Africa?
The reason why that older study estimated them as probably is because the remains have "stereotypical" sub Saharan influenced, yet in modern interpretation show a hybrid type (mixed). In newer studies it is understood that these remains cluster with other remains from South of the Sahara within the African diversity.
quote: Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote:Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’— that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
--U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ nice charts representing 10% of maternal Taforalt DNA.
figures if you posts a lot of charts, maybe the number of charts will change the balance of the mtDNA, I put up a chart indicating all of the MtDna including the L, he pretends the rest of it disppeared
And the title of the article is
The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa
we are not dealing with the first dipersals we are dealing with 12,000 kya and later or if M81 is the important Y clade, 5600 years ago .
It goes like this
Suppose you are looking at an ethnic group and they have several haplogroups,
Pick out the haplogroups that you like. Then go find a bunch of charts of that haplogroup post them up
Then somebody reading the thread wow, look at all that, they must have had a lot of that haplogroup , look at all the charts. yet no context of the whole mtDNA is given.
Y DNA? I gave links earlier in the thread as well as posting the high M81 frequencies
Show everything and then deal with the situation instead of the cherry pick
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ nice charts representing 10% of maternal Taforalt DNA.
figures if you posts a lot of charts, maybe the number of charts will change the balance of the mtDNA, I put up a chart indicating all of the MtDna including the L, he pretends the rest of it disppeared
And the title of the article is
The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa
we are not dealing with the first dipersals we are dealing with 12,000 kya and later or if M81 is the important Y clade, 5600 years ago .
It goes like this
Suppose you are looking at an ethnic group and they have several haplogroups,
Pick out the haplogroups that you like. Then go find a bunch of charts of that haplogroup post them up
Then somebody reading the thread wow, look at all that, they must have had a lot of that haplogroup , look at all the charts. yet no context of the whole mtDNA is given.
Y DNA? I gave links earlier in the thread as well as posting the high M81 frequencies
Show everything and then deal with the situation instead of the cherry pick
You are as stupid as you are amusing.
Speaking of cherry picking. You first posted about the inhabitation of 12Kya. I then post sources on Africans inhabiting the region, as I posted from different discipline. Then to you made up stupid excuses, as you do so often.
And of course you still aren't able to show archeological and anthropological evidence of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic.
So what do you do, you derail and skew on the subject.
Btw, I have no idea what chart you speak of, showing 10%?
quote: Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
quote:No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
I take it, you're already familiar with this one.
Notice Kefi's so-called haplotypes are only either a single or no more than two mutations. It takes a string of mutations to make a haplotype. Since some of these mutations appear in more than one Haplogroup Kefi's assignment is willy-nilly subjected to a priori assumptions of an SSA free NA throughout time.
Yet pre or nascient Holocene SSA mtDNA is found in Iberia. However the great blind degree of anti-SSA prejudice imagines prehistoric SSA mtDNA is somehow in Iberia w/o ever having been in NW Afr.
For instance, in her PPt Kefi throws out TafVIII. Is it in order to deny an inner African component in epipaleolithic Taforalt? It is the only sample of possible L3, M, or N affiliation. There were only two U6 samples yet Kefi did not exclude them among originators of "Ibero-Maurusians."
Clearly if the L3/M/N individual was found at Taforalt then she was just as much an "Ibero-Maurusian" originator as the two U6 females were. 4% is as weighty as 8% when the true heavy weight ranks in at 50%.
Also, it is very significant that an L3/M/N female was living that far north so near the very shoreline of N Africa at that point in time with her other African mtDNA sisters of the U6 haplogroup.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: You are as stupid as you are amusing.
Speaking of cherry picking. You first posted about the inhabitation of 12Kya. I then post sources on Africans inhabiting the region, as I posted from different discipline. Then to you made up stupid excuses, as you do so often.
You are stupid. What you posted did not contradict what I posted. You don't like the DNA so you ran off to another discipline. Ok fine, what you continue to not understand is that Africans were inhabiting the region as well as Europeans and mixing. So the fact that you show data that Africans were inhabiting the region does not means non-Africans were not also inhabiting the same region, the Mt and Y tell the story, deal with it instead of knee jerk reaction
You see , in this world not everything is black or white
It doesn't matter if Kefi included the L there are still Eurasian haplogoups at high frequency maternally in skeltons in NA 12,000 Bp. That means back migration
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: You are as stupid as you are amusing.
Speaking of cherry picking. You first posted about the inhabitation of 12Kya. I then post sources on Africans inhabiting the region, as I posted from different discipline. Then to you made up stupid excuses, as you do so often.
You are stupid. What you posted did not contradict what I posted. You don't like the DNA so you ran off to another discipline. Ok fine, what you continue to not understand is that Africans were inhabiting the region as well as Europeans and mixing. So the fact that you show data that Africans were inhabiting the region does not means non-Africans were not also inhabiting the same region, the Mt and Y tell the story, deal with it
You see , in this world not everything is black or white
I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.
Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.
quote:No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
[...]
Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote:Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
quote: “..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.
Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.
You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry Ibero-Maurusians are a long 10,000 year period
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.
Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.
You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry
Where is it, why is it clustered with indigenous remains from South of the Sahara? Now it is long ago before 10.000 Kya.
Just the other minute you complained about me post sources form 12Kya.
I am waiting....
quote:The coding regions transitions are likely to change relatively slower than those of hypervariable segments, and hence, likely to remain intact within a clade. To assist in determining which clade to place a monophyletic unit, key coding region transitions have to be identified. In the case of M1, we were told:
We found 489C (Table 3) in all Indian and eastern-African haplogroup M mtDNAs analysed, but not in the non-M haplogroup controls, including 20 Africans representing all African main lineages (6 L1, 4 L2, 10 L3) and 11 Asians.
These findings, and the lack of positive evidence (given the RFLP status) that the 10400 C->T transition defining M has happened more than once, suggest that it has a single common origin, but do not resolve its geographic origin. Analysis of position 10873 (the MnlI RFLP) revealed that all the M molecules (eastern African, Asian and those sporadically found in our population surveys) were 10873C (Table 3). As for the non-M mtDNAs, the ancient L1 and the L2 African-specific lineages5, as well as most L3 African mtDNAs, also carry 10873C.
Conversely, all non-M mtDNAs of non-African origin analysed so far carry 10873T. These data indicate that the **transition 10400 C-->T, which defines haplogroup M**, arose on an African background characterized by the ancestral state 10873C, which is also present in four primate (common and pygmy chimps, gorilla and orangutan) mtDNA sequences.
--Semino et al.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.
Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.
You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry
Where is it, why is it clustered with indigenous remains from South of the Sahara?
I am waiting....
because that is how these mixed ancestry skeletons look to some people.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mix an Italian mother and and a Nigerian father
a researcher looking at the skeleton alone might not be able to tell there was European ancestry.
At this point it becomes useful to take the crumpled up piece of paper in the garbage which had the DNA analysis on it
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.
Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.
You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry
Where is it, why is it clustered with indigenous remains from South of the Sahara?
I am waiting....
because that is how these mixed ancestry skeletons look to some people.
So on what do you base this, that Eurasian skeletons look mixed to some people?
quote:What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
quote: Migration within a larger time framework took place ca. 15,000--18,000 BP, when the first Asian populations crossed the Bering Strait, ultimately founding the modern Amerindian population. Despite having as much as 18,000 years of selection in environments as diverse as those found in the Old World, body mass and proportion clines in the Americas are less steep than those in the Old World (Newman, 1953; Roberts, 1978). In fact, as Hulse (1960) pointed out, Amerindians, even in the tropics, tend to possess some ''arctic'' adaptations. Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992). This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."
-- Holliday T.(1997). Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins. Jrnl Hum Evo. 32:423-447
quote:Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans should not exhibit tropically-adapted limb proportions, since, even assuming replacement, their ancestors had experienced cold stress in glacial Europe for at least 12 millennia. [...] Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. [...] The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
--Holliday TW J Hum Evol. 1999 May;36(5):549-66. Brachial and crural indices of European late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Yup. You got that right. And that's your problem.
Up until this very day,
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Notice up you still haven't been able to show archeological and anthropological data on so called Eurasian presence in Africa during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic. It's funny!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb.
I see 9.5% U6 which is not nothing.
haven't read the article but I did skim the powerpoint As per this one chart, it's mtDNA therefore anybody hell bent denying any African contribution would also have to deny that Y DNA analysis also showed minimal African contribution
. Shut up fool.
"local littoral Maghreb" covered U6 so what are you squawking about? Just showing your low comprehension level or your hi misconstruant abilities.
So my assessment remains unfalsified: "Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb."
You haven't read the study or even closely looked at the PPT.
One of the things she plainly proposed was to see if SSA had anything to do w/Maurusian.
Kefi quite clearly and w/o any ambiguity strikes off what she calls sub-Sudanese in the peopling of Maurusian.
To do that she ignores any L haplogroup possibilities and what's worse for the one sample she couldn't find a non-SSA hg (Taf VIII) she blithely ignores as if no one can see it too is a part of Maurusian peopling.
Again, do the math, no joke. Kefi's math doesn't add up. I checked Kefi's haplotypes against Watson's sequences back when I first did this.
Now we have several full sequence mtDNA databases free at our fingertips.
Using current full sequences shows Kefi's hg assignments are fortuitous. I may or may not update my original results. Doesn't matter. Kefi set out to deny any "sub-Sudanese" (her terminology) Maurusian peopling and to do so she even overlooks her own admitted L3/M/N sample.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mix an Italian mother and and a Nigerian father
a researcher looking at the skeleton alone might not be able to tell there was European ancestry.
At this point it becomes useful to take the crumpled up piece of paper in the garbage which had the DNA analysis on it
LOL, but they would be able to dissect the mothers limbs. And this is what we are taking about.
Show evidence on remains of Eurasian and European women's presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa.
I already have cited what Eurasians and Europeans looked like during those time frames, of the acclaimed, as still is in some way.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
Taforalt
.
I'm not getting rerouted by your rhetorical railroading and letting you off the hook about your unsubstantiated claim, so get to work, quick.
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
According to the lioness this is actually a Eurasian remain.
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara.
The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
I haven't seen the Lioness itself present any kind of supporting materials pro or con. Let it speak with its own mouth, please.
(S)he said Taforalt not Aousserd. (S)he also needs to post Euro osteo remains matching Taforalt from neighboring industries; namely Iberia's Magdalene and Azilian, both contemporaneous with the Taforalt Maurusian.
(S)he need show them in tandem to make any kind of support case.
Please don't entertain any posts from the Lioness until (s)he puts up supporting evidence.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Yup. You got that right. And that's your problem.
Up until this very day,
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Notice up you still haven't been able to show archeological and anthropological data on so called Eurasian presence in Africa during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic. It's funny!
Afalou = Iberomaurusian
Afalou limb proportions clusters with circumpolar peoples
Holliday 2009
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Stop squirming
quote: Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
the Lioness: Taforalt
Back it up or retract it.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Yup. You got that right. And that's your problem.
Up until this very day,
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Notice up you still haven't been able to show archeological and anthropological data on so called Eurasian presence in Africa during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic. It's funny!
Afalou = Iberomaurusian
Afalou limb proportions clusters with circumpolar peoples
Holliday 2009
I am waiting for you to show me the remains.
How do (did) you read that chart?
quote: Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely cold-adapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European-derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, bi-iliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Jun;142(2):287-302. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21226. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
quote:The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. A key question surrounds its appearance in the Maghreb, a semi-arid upland zone on the edge of the Sahara, soon after the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 years ago) and despite evidence for a continuation into the Holocene very little is known either about the later part of this timespan or what processes led to its disappearance after 9000 years ago. An issue rarely commented upon is the apparently synchronous and sudden occurrence of large scale midden deposits in Iberomaurusian contexts in caves across the western Maghreb at around 13,000 years ago. This also seems to have coincided with the appearance of some of the earliest cemeteries.
The climatic framework of this study is the late Pleistocene and early Holocene (c. 20,000 - 9000 BP) and is important because it was a phase of major climatic instability and allows us to assess any cultural responses made by Iberomaurusian human populations in the context of these changes. Details of the climatic record for this period come principally from the Greenland Ice cores but there were also marked fluctuations in sea surface temperatures recorded in basal sediments of the Atlantic and Mediterranean. These indicate evidence of distinct cooling phases associated with increased aridification on the adjacent landmasses of North Africa during the Younger Dryas (c.11,000-10,000 years ago), and at earlier times in the past including at around 15,000 and 25,000 years ago. The climatic dynamics provide a vital element in exploring the effects of environmental change on epipalaeolithic human behaviour.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Stop squirming
quote: Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
the Lioness: Taforalt
Back it up or retract it.
quote: North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia.
--On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-124.html] [/URLnotice the difference?_____________________________^^^^
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-124.html] [/URLnotice the difference?_____________________________^^^^
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Thanks for posting.
quote:While it is possible that the types found belong to hitherto unrecognised 'transitional Middle-Upper Palaeolithic industries', we believe it more prudent at the moment to leave any precise attribution until further work has been completed.
Libya and the Maghreb: If the archaeology of the Sahara’s southern margins remains relatively poorly understood, the Maghreb has long been the focus of sustained activity focused on the Pleistocene/Holocene transition (Lubell 2000, 2005). Here and at Haua Fteah in northeastern Libya, the Iberomaurusian industry introduced in Chapter 7 continued to be made into the terminal Pleistocene (McBurney 1967; Close and Wendorf 1990). Several unusual features are of interest, including evidence, rare at this time depth, for sculpture. This takes the form of anthropomorphic and zoomorphic ceramic figurines from Afalou, Algeria, baked from locally available clay to temperatures of 500◦–800◦C (Hachi 1996, Hachi et al. 2002). Dating 15–11 kya, they are complemented by an earlier fragmentary figurine from the nearby site of Tamar Hat (Saxon 1976). Distinctive, too, are the many burials known from these later Iberomaurusian contexts, including apparent cemeteries at Afalou (Hachi 1996) and Taforalt, Morocco (almost 200 individuals; Ferembach et al. 1962). Analysis of these remains (see inset) raises issues of territoriality, limited mobility, and group identity that economic data are still too few to explore further.
Knowing that people hunted Barbary sheep and other large mammals and that they collected molluscs, both terrestrial and marine, is very different from being able to develop this checklist of ingredients into a meaningful set of recipes or menus that could illuminate the details of Iberomaurusian subsistence-settlement strategies. WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB: The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology) Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:[/qb] [i] The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
^^ just one writers speculation, not hard datata, again the word "suggests" is used. Suggests to him
This is a unique population, a hybrid.
And the skeltons of modern berbers might yeild a similar result, yet on DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Your method: DNA can be ignored if a skeleton looks kind of African to a guy
Europeans have some overlap in features with some Africans.
So if you are analzing a skeleton you can say it looks African. Or you can say it looks European. Both statements can be right.
But to exlcude European you have to prove what you are saying with hard data of which certain traits are African exclusively African and therfore of two possibilities you can definitivley exclude one. But you can't only go by one discilipe because you like the result suggested by an Africanist author.
I realize you don't use reasoning. You just find authors who make satements you agree with and post them.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB: [i] The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
^^ just one writers speculation, not hard datata, again the word "suggests" is used. Suggests to him
This is a unique population, a hybrid.
And the skeltons of modern berbers might yeild a similar result, yet on DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Your method: DNA can be ignored if a skeleton looks kind of African to a guy
Europeans have some overlap in features with some Africans.
So if you are analzing a skeleton you can say it looks African. Or you can say it looks European. Both statements can be right.
But to exlcude European you have to prove what you are saying with hard data of which certain traits are African exclusively African and therfore of two possibilities you can definitivley exclude one. But you can't only go by one discilipe because you like the result suggested by an Africanist author.
I realize you don't use reasoning. You just find authors who make satements you agree with and post them. [/QB]
I did not ignore DNA, I cited DNA studies fool. I showed you that M1 and U6 for example are local to Africa. I showed you a pad of migration people of similar yet older industries from where these M1 and U6 stem, east Africa. As well as crania from these regions and climatology of the Sahara to Maghreb.
And now you claim that Europeans have overlaps, while indigenous Africans cannot and don't?
While from a evolutionary point of view these Holocene specimen traits make all the sense in the world.
The thing is, correlation.
Here is some more specimen from the Sahara correlation. Same time frame. This time from a profile view.
The above shows reasoning!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ Are those bones from the Maghreb, what site is it?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ Are those bones from the Maghreb, what site is it?
Yes those are from the South of the Maghreb, dating back to the same time frame as is being discussed here.
Have a closer look.
It's later over here, and I'm going to rest. I'm offline.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] ^^^ Are those bones from the Maghreb, what site is it?
Yes those are from the South of the Maghreb, dating back to the same time frame as is being discussed here.
what country? why do you not have a link?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] ^^^ Are those bones from the Maghreb, what site is it?
Yes those are from the South of the Maghreb, dating back to the same time frame as is being discussed here.
^^^ suspicious
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ suspicious
For your discontinuity. The outliers are what? Right on, there ya' go!
The only thing suspicious here is your ongoing ignorance and arrogance.
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
This was my last post. I am truly offline for now. Bye bye.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Aw c'mon
Some Africans were still removing incisors just last century
C'mon now
Give us a set of raw data statistics showing Taforalt Maurusians match Magdalen a/o Azilian skeletons and skulls.
[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-124.html] [/URLnotice the difference?_____________________________^^^^
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Aw c'mon
Some Africans were still removing incisors just last century
C'mon now
Give us a set of raw data statistics showing Taforalt Maurusians match Magdalen a/o Azilian skeletons and skulls.
Troll Patrol seems to think there could have been no significant input from Europe into North Africa around 10-12,000 ya Do you agree with this?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
There you go again with unsubstantiated bullshit. Berbers are not primarily Eurasian. Per DNA (mtDNA, nrY Chrom, autosomes) aggregated in toto, Berbers primarily African.
You and our dumbass keep pushing the mtDNA as if it's the one and only determinant.
U r full of **** and you know it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Meanwhile ...
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Aw c'mon
Some Africans were still removing incisors just last century
C'mon now
Give us a set of raw data statistics showing Taforalt Maurusians match Magdalen a/o Azilian skeletons and skulls.
Troll Patrol seems to think there could have been no significant input from Europe into North Africa around 10-12,000 ya Do you agree with this?
I think this is an important question, don't get scared
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukulr pretending the below is a lioness quote DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Meanwhile ...
give me an unfake quote and maybe I will respond
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Shut up wench and answer the important questions you've been asked.
You can divert others but you can't distract me.
U r the queen of the fake quote
You are full of **** and you know it.
quote: Originally posted January 19, 2014
Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
the Lioness: Taforalt
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this.
What's holding you up? A - Scared? B - Incapable? C - Full of ****? D - All of the above?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
All this stuff we are talking about at the moment is prehistoric, many lack of continuity issues involved
The thread topic is are the berbers of 2014 as a whole, primarily African.
I suppose in this case "primarily" means 51%
In this situation where the stats may be straddling in the middle and the wide diversity of modern day berbers I think it would be hard to make a case with certainty one way or the other.
Suppose modern day berbers are 42% African?
That would make them 58% non-African
On the other hand what if they are 58% African
and only 42% non-African?
(keep in mind there's a whole relatively recent Islamic expansion into NA to consider)
Say it's either one of the above cases 42/58 or 58/42 ?
what relevance is that apart from some rhetorical game on who wins by being greater than 50? It's not learning it competitiveness on a number for it's own sake.
The more relevant point is that the berbers of today are a very ethnically mixed group and Maghrebians as a whole even less percentage indigenous African (although significant)
The other more relevant issue is Was there significant non African input into North Africa 10-12,000 years ago?
It shouldn't be a big puzzle, the extracted DNA. That trumps speculation on ambiguous physical morphology in this case.
Predictably if Greece or Mesopotamia were being discussed and African DNA mentioned the same people would be parading the DNA
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
17 mirrors floating on the sea distract as distract can but you can't distract me.
So ....
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this.
What's holding you up? A - Scared? B - Incapable? C - Full of ****? D - All of the above?
You opened up your mouth spouting horseshit you can't back up (as usual) then you try to play it off and change the subject (as usual) but that routine doesn't work on me.
Raw data and statistics wench not more hot air farts out your mouth.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
they don't have to match a European
I keep telling you idiots,
they only have to match a person 51% non African and 49% African, to win your dumb rhetorical game
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What? Yet another hot air mouth fart?
Oh poor puddy tat mew mew mew yadda yadda yadda
OK you admit defeat and that you were full of **** right from the start when you spit at Ish
quote: Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa? the Lioness: Taforalt
U got no phunk U got no punk U got no jazz no razzamatazz
but most of all
u got no Paleolithic Eurasian skulls and skeletons in North Africa!
Taf VIII one of the Taforalt physical remains This is the one Kefi had to admit its DNA was in the L/M/N category i.e., same as her sub-Sudanese.
Since climatology disallows for flow from 15 north lat from 22 - 12 kya then its ancestress was there from the start of the Maurusian industry just like the U6, H, and the alleged V and JT ancestresses.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
still Tukular hasn't crunched the numbers.
The first step is compiling a list of all the berber groups and their populations.
So nobody is even on sqaure one. I can't do the work for everybody.
Hypothetically what if there were only two berber groups.
Group one has a population of 10 and is 80% African, 20% non African.
Group two has a population of 40 and is 20% African , 80% non African.
- what is there percentage of african to non african of all the berbers as a whole, 50 people total in this hypothetical ?
If you don't know you cant even begin to address the thread question. You have to understand something about statistics, not just rhetoric
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Fart fart fart
Where's the raw data and statistics?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
quote: U got no phunk U got no punk U got no jazz no razzamatazz
but most of all
u got no Paleolithic Eurasian skulls and skeletons in North Africa!
Sorry but I can't pass this up too funny..ok u guyz continue. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals 2013
Federico Sánchez-Quinto equal contributor, Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Sergi Civit, Conxita Arenas, María C. Ávila-Arcos, Carlos D. Bustamante, David Comas Carles Lalueza-Fox
Abstract
One of the main findings derived from the analysis of the Neandertal genome was the evidence for admixture between Neandertals and non-African modern humans. An alternative scenario is that the ancestral population of non-Africans was closer to Neandertals than to Africans because of ancient population substructure. Thus, the study of North African populations is crucial for testing both hypotheses. We analyzed a total of 780,000 SNPs in 125 individuals representing seven different North African locations and searched for their ancestral/derived state in comparison to different human populations and Neandertals. We found that North African populations have a significant excess of derived alleles shared with Neandertals, when compared to sub-Saharan Africans. This excess is similar to that found in non-African humans, a fact that can be interpreted as a sign of Neandertal admixture. Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals.
Recent genetic analysis of North African populations [17] have found that, despite the complex admixture genetic background, there is an autochthonous genomic component which is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow older than 12,000 years ago (ya) (i.e., prior to the Neolithic migrations). This local population substratum seems to represent a genetic discontinuity with the earliest modern human settlers of North Africa (those with the Aterian industry) given the estimated ancestry is younger than 40,000 years ago [17]. The estimated time of Neandertal admixture with modern human populations is between 37,000–86,000 years ago
our results show that Neandertal genomic traces do not mark a division between African and non-Africans but rather a division between Sub-Saharan Africans and the rest of modern human groups, including those from North
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^!funny how the author doesn't mention the following, which for some odd reason he totally overlooked:
quote: During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
--Susan M. Adams
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
quote:Dr. Ralph D. Winter founded the U.S. Center for World Mission (USCWM) - A Christian missionary group which is based in Pasadena, California. The Joshua Project.
A Turk of Algeria
A French woman of Algeria
A Spaniard of Algeria
A Romani (Gypsy) of Algeria
A Berber, Kabyle of Algeria
An Arabic speaker in Algeria
The Berber, Imazighen of Algeria
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Funny how that author doesn't mention the following:
quote: Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
quote: The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.
--Eliška Podgorná et al.
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013
The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup
quote:For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.
Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.
The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.
The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.
quote: The Middle Holocene, and more precisely the period from around 6400 BP and 5000 BP, was a period of profound environmental change, during which the global climate underwent a systematic reorganisation as the warm, humid post-glacial climate of the Early Holocene gave way to a climatic configuration broadly similar to that of today (Brooks, 2010; Mayewski et al., 2004). The most prominent manifestations of this transition were a cooling at middle and high latitudes and high altitudes (Thompson et al., 2006), a transition from relatively humid to arid conditions in the NHST (Brooks, 2006, 2010; deMenocal et al., 2000) and the establishment of a regular El Niño after a multimillennial period during which is was rare or absent (Sandweiss et al., 2007).
This “Middle Holocene Climatic Transition” (MHCT) represented a stepwise acceleration of climatic trends that had commenced in the 9th millennium BP in some regions (Jung et al., 2004), and entailed a long-term shift towards cooler and more arid conditions, punctuated by episodes of abrupt climatic change. Around 6400–6300 BP, palaeo-environmental evidence indicates abrupt lake recessions and increased aridity in northern Africa, western Asia, South Asia and northern China, and the advance of glaciers in Europe and elsewhere (Damnati, 2000; Enzel et al., 1999; Jung et al., 2004; Linstädter & Kröpelin, 2004; Mayewski et al., 2004; Zhang et al., 2000).
Ocean records suggest a cold-arid episode around 5900 BP (Bond et al., 1997), followed in the Sahara by an abrupt shift to aridity around 5800–5700 BP, evident in terrestrial records from the Libyan central Sahara and marine records from the Eastern Tropical Atlantic (Cremaschi, 2002; di Lernia, 2002; deMenocal et al., 2000). From about 5800–5700 BP to 5200–5000 BP, aridification intensified in the Sahara (deMenocal et al., 2000), South Asia (Enzel et al., 1999), north-central China (Zhang et al., 2000; Xiao et al., 2004) and the Arabian Peninsula (Parker et al., 2006). Over the same period, drought conditions prevailed in the Eastern Mediterranean (Bar-Matthews & Ayalon, 2011), the Zagros Mountains of Iran (Stevens et al., 2006) and County Mayo in Ireland (Caseldine et al., 2005), while river flow into the Cariaco Basin of northern South America decreased (Haug et al., 2001). An abrupt cold-arid episode around 5200 BP is evident in environmental records from Europe, Africa, western Asia, China and South America, (Caseldine et al., 2005; Gasse, 2002; Magny & Haas, 2004; Parker et al., 2006; Thompson et al., 1995).
The above evidence indicates that the MHCT was associated with a weakening of monsoon systems across the globe, and the southward retreat of monsoon rains in the NHST (Lézine, 2009). However, these changes coincided with climatic reorganisation outside of the global monsoon belt, as indicated by the onset of El Niño and evidence of large changes in climate at middle and high latitudes. The ultimate driving force behind these changes was a decline in the intensity of summer solar radiation outside the tropics, resulting from long-term changes in the angle of the Earth’s axis of rotation relative to its orbital plane. This was translated into abrupt changes in climate by non-linear feedback processes within the climate system (Brooks, 2004; deMenocal et al., 2000; Kukla & Gavin, 2004).
[...]
In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
quote: U got no phunk U got no punk U got no jazz no razzamatazz
but most of all
u got no Paleolithic Eurasian skulls and skeletons in North Africa!
Sorry but I can't pass this up too funny..ok u guyz continue.
It's indeed way too funny,
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
Afalou limb proportions are cold adapted, clustering with Alaskans!
Hattab II Cave in northwestern Morocco
/close thread
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^ who's to say this isn't half or more European?
Who's to say the Moon isn't really bleu cheese. Speculation runs rife in absence of evidence.
Raw data and statistics please of Taforalt Maurusian versus Iberian Magdalene/Azilian.
After being asked a gzillion times it's time to put up or STFU
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
a chart from a peer reviewed article which is scaled according to numerical morphological data to you is blue cheese?
DNA from 12,000 years ago is blue cheese?
up is down, down is up?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Patrol where in North Africa is the Paleolithic Eurasian component?
It's in one specific time period and costal location. You asked for bones I gave you bones. Cold adapted limb ratios from a Trenton Holliday article, deal with the situation. Because you can put up info from the Sahael or even another later green period coastal culture, the more gracile Capsian culture (discontinuity has ben noted) does not change the fact that both morphologically and by DNA analysis there is significant evidence for a European presence in a part of North Africa 12,000 years ago. And if M81 is 5,600 old what was Iberomaurusians Y DNA ? Was it E ? I don't know if their paternal DNA has been analyzed
Then return to the topic, not prehistoric DNA but the contemporary DNA of berbers today.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: a chart from a peer reviewed article which is scaled according to numerical morphological data to you is blue cheese?
DNA from 12,000 years ago is blue cheese?
up is down, down is up?
And a clown is a clown as in y-o-u.
It is not a statistical comparison of the two subject population groups' physicality.
U couldn't compare to show 1- Magdalenian Europe/Azilian Pyrenees (Paleolithic Eurasians) __ crania and skeletons(physical remains) are a match for 2- Maurusian Taforalt (North Africa)
U haven't done it yet U r not going to try to do it now cos U can't do it never
Fail, the Lioness, a big fail 4 u !!!
The dance is done and u along w/it. We know u'll keep repeatin when you need be retreatin but this is the end for you about this
Cro-Magnon North Africans went out with button up shoes and your boyfriend Carleton Coon.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Who the **** do you think you are? This is my thread bitch You don't tell anybody what they can or can't post You ain't no moderator Quit acting like Lord of ES. You ain't even the bellhop.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol ... return to the topic, not prehistoric DNA but the contemporary DNA of berbers today.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Who the **** do you think you are? This is my thread bitch
asshole, lioness quotes are your thread concepts now ?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: recap
physical anthropology
human remains found in littoral Mahgreb North Africa, not Gobero in Niger- Sahel
Afalou limb proportions are cold adapted, clustering with Alaskans!
Hattab II Cave in northwestern Morocco
/close thread
How do (did) you read that chart?
quote:
Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely cold-adapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European-derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, bi-iliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Jun;142(2):287-302. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21226. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Maghreb specimen clusters with Gobero specimen, dumbass! Multiple sources from multiple disciplines have been cited, you dumbass!
quote:
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together,
[...]
The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Who the **** do you think you are? This is my thread bitch
asshole, lioness quotes are your thread concepts now ?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)
Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs. Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians. Their crural and brachial index are at 85.5% and 77.5 respectively per Holiday 1997. Its simply a pleisiomorphic trait from their Upper Palaeolithic ancestors, and ultimate from Africans. What you want to look at is their bodyplan in its entirety or their absolute limb length, both of which are unlikely to retain a plesiomorphic state for as long as limb proportions.
Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe. --Holiday, 1999
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.
Caution is advised here. Ain Dokhara is just a single specimen. I wouldn't be surprised if some European or Ibero-Maurusian sample diverged in the African direction as well. In fact, what I could make out from the blurred readcube rendering of the paper is that at least one Afalou specimen clustered with the North Africans. We're talking populations with all their variations, not isolated individuals. There is also the issue of whether the introduction of the Neolithic tradition from the Sudan area influenced the Capsians biologically.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol where in North Africa is the Paleolithic Eurasian component?
It's in one specific time period and costal location. You asked for bones I gave you bones. Cold adapted limb ratios from a Trenton Holliday article, deal with the situation. Because you can put up info from the Sahael or even another later green period coastal culture, the more gracile Capsian culture (discontinuity has ben noted) does not change the fact that both morphologically and by DNA analysis there is significant evidence for a European presence in a part of North Africa 12,000 years ago. And if M81 is 5,600 old what was Iberomaurusians Y DNA ? Was it E ? I don't know if their paternal DNA has been analyzed
Then return to the topic, not prehistoric DNA but the contemporary DNA of berbers today.
Where is the Eurasian specimen in North Africa?
Where are the fossil records?
The discontinuity is from the outliers such as the Aterian and Gob-m.
The continuity is from all other indigenous Southern populations.
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
--Paul C. Sereno
E-M81 is a mutation and a sub clade of a older Africa clade, E-M183.
This mutation parallels with the climatic shifts in the region.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs.
^^^ try to figure out what he's agreeing on.
The statement " Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted" is simply wrong as the chart indicates
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians.
^^^ here he states Ibero-Maurusians were less tropcially adapted than Mesolithic Europeans. Doesn't that add to my argument? They are clustering with Alaskans.
--and which Mesolithic Europeans, Scandinavians or Iberians or...etc?
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.
yes lioness, this later group of the Maghreb had a more gracile body plan than did the Iberomaurusian.
So what you list as a debunk is you playing yourself The paleolithic settelements in North Africa have differnt roots
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have, -and in it's entirety
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have,
I never posted the caption to this, but you have? hilarious!
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
E-M215 >E-M35 >E-M28>E-M183 >E-M81
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have,
I never posted the caption to this, but you have? hilarious!
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
I don't know you've posted it over 100 times I know you're not posting it now without the full caption
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs.
^^^ try to figure out what he's agreeing on.
The statement " Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted" is simply wrong as the chart indicates
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians.
^^^ here he states Ibero-Maurusians were less tropcially adapted than Mesolithic Europeans. Doesn't that add to my argument? They are clustering with Alaskans.
--and which Mesolithic Europeans, Scandinavians or Iberians or...etc?
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.
yes lioness, this later group of the Maghreb had a more gracile body plan than did the Iberomaurusian.
So what you list as a debunk is you playing yourself The paleolithic settelements in North Africa have differnt roots
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Also Explorer wasn't it you not long ago who when asked about where do all these tawny skinned North Africans come from you would say white women slaves of tha Barbary? -and Troll Patrol adding expulsion of the Moriscos ?
It if that is the case then what are the foreign haplogroups of berbers?
With all the screen distortion and other noise, this escaped my attention.
First, I'd like to point out that your question is based on a fiction. This then cancels out your follow up question.
I've never made the claim that "all tawny skinned North Africans come from white slaves of the barbary". It's your fabrication.
I did however note, that a good amount of what is considered "foreign" ancestry, in the maternal gene pool, can likely be attributable to a slavery institution that largely favored females. And before you go bungling that up too, I am not saying that "all" the maternal gene pool is attributable to slavery.
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
Next time make sure you are asking a question of me that is rooted on something I've actually said.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have,
I never posted the caption to this, but you have? hilarious!
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
I don't know you've posted it over 100 times I know you're not posting it now without the full caption
I have posted this with the full caption, but your stupidity mandates for people to narrow it down to the final subject. Therefore is only cite the most relevant, to highlight. And when this happens you start to play your usual distraction and derailing games. Because it debunks you upside down and all around!
Maghreb specimen clusters with Gobero specimen, dumbass! Multiple sources from multiple disciplines have been cited, you dumbass!
quote:
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together,
[...]
The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
stop making excuses it's not proper to post that without the caption that explalins the terms and makes other remarks about outliers
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop making excuses it's not proper to post that without the caption that explalins the terms and makes other remarks about outliers
I have explained the details. But your stupidity is blocked from all rational thinking.
It is you who is making the excuses and can't backup anthropological and archeological evidence.
I have posted evidence from multiple disciplines.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb how did that happen ?>
a question you can't answer
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
see that E1b1b1b1 58% ?
that goes back only 5,600 years
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb how did that happen ?>
a question you can't answer
This is hilarious....
quote: During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A question you can't answer:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic? Where where where...? Where is the distribution?
quote:The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery...
The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions...
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
--Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) (1975)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic , Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic? Where where where...?
at the Iberomaurusian sites.
The chart on E etc in modern berbers does not apply to the Y DNA of the Iberomaurusians.
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 year old human remains in the Maghreb
how did that happen ?
this is hilarious
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic , Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic? Where where where...?
at the Iberomaurusian sites.
The chart on E etc in modern berbers does not apply to the Y DNA of the Iberomaurusians.
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 year old human remains in the Maghreb
how did that happen ?
this is hilarious
The chart of E does apply on the distribution of the Iberomaurusians. As I have stated before, E-M81 is likely a mutation due to climate change.
quote: During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A question you can't answer:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic in Africa? Where where where...? Where is the distribution?
The Iberomaurusians cluster with indigenous people from the South! Not with foreign people from Eurasia. If so, the multiple studies on archeology and anthropology would have stated this, clearly. While in fact the opposite is the case, they state a indigenous process of distribution. As I have shown by multiple disciplines vs your opinion.
By the way:
quote:The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A-M28> E-M215 >E-M35 > E-V257 >E-M81
quote: However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al.
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
^^meaningless statement
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
What is your interpretation of that information?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
What is your interpretation of that information? [/QB]
The chart doesn't list any M269 in Afro-Iranians (xyyman games)
The 16.7 refers to M198
and, I'm not sure why but that same figure 16.7 for L23.
It doesn't mean that "16% of the Black Iranians carry" these haplogoups and therefore 84% don't.
It's an average it means of all Afro Iranians, on average they have 16.7% frequency of these hgs. It's not the same thing. A larger percentage of Afro Iranians carry these haplogoups than 16.7%, They carry this ancestry at various frequencies higher and lower than 16.7%. When they are averaged together it's 16.7%
These lineages in Afro Iranians seems unremarkable because the various other Iranian groups have these hgs as well, Assyrians at the high end of L23 at 23.1 and Bandari at the high point of M198 at 21.4
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
The chart of E does apply on the distribution of the Iberomaurusians. As I have stated before, E-M81 is likely a mutation due to climate change.
A chart showing various frequencies of different E clades of modern berbers has nothing to do with Iberomaurusians' DNA
--Show me any Y DNA analysis that even pertains to what hgs they carried, any, specific to Iberomaurusians
LP to the fullest, Tukuler is an enabler Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
This man is toying with you. He is on games.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
The chart doesn't list any M269 in Afro-Iranians
I can't make this stuff up!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
BTW - The sibling clade is R1a1a. You know the old R1a (East European?).
Fascinating!!!
Am I reading this right, Black Iranians carry BOTH branches of the sub-clades of R1. Anyone?!
Odd that both clades have the same frequency. Peer reviewed?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
The chart of E does apply on the distribution of the Iberomaurusians. As I have stated before, E-M81 is likely a mutation due to climate change.
A chart showing various frequencies of different E clades of modern berbers has nothing to do with Iberomaurusians' DNA
--Show me any Y DNA analysis that even pertains to what hgs they carried, any, specific to Iberomaurusians
I already have shown the distribution. That chart shows the "Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree". Hence the name of the study: "Binary Polymorphisms".
We have the remains clustering with indigenous people from the South, we have ornaments assemblages from East Africa showing a indigenous distribution, we have the language distribution from the eastSouth, we have climate change. What do you have, your own opinion?
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A-M28> E-M215 >E-M35 > E-V257 >E-M81
quote: However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81,
[...]
--Beniamino Trombetta et al.
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
Now, it's time for you to show the fossils/ remains of Eurasians females in Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa. Others and I are still eagerly waiting, as has been for the last 4 years, for you post your (superficial) evidence.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BTW - The sibling clade is R1a1a. You know the old R1a (East European?).
Fascinating!!!
Am I reading this right, Black Iranians carry BOTH branches of the sub-clades of R1. Anyone?!
Odd that both clades have the same frequency. Peer reviewed?
This just supports my research that R1 is of African origin and was took to Eurasia by the Kushites.
I already have shown the distribution. That chart shows the "Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree". Hence the name of the study: "Binary Polymorphisms".
You have shown nothing. You asked me for a skeleton of Iberomaurusians I showed you one.
They are a specific unique group and have noted morphological differences to Capsians as noted by archaeologists. They lived in the Maghreb for about 10,000 years.
I asked you for YDNA of this specific group of skeletons called Iberomaurusian in as specific place in Morroco.
You showed none therefore you don't know what the paternal haplogroups of Iberomaurusians is , period. end of story
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BTW - The sibling clade is R1a1a. You know the old R1a (East European?).
Fascinating!!!
Am I reading this right, Black Iranians carry BOTH branches of the sub-clades of R1. Anyone?!
Odd that both clades have the same frequency. Peer reviewed?
What's facintating? Zanj intermarried with Assyrians
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
What does the data mean?! That is a very good question. I will take a stab at it. Anyone can correct me. These things are really simple really once you look at it objectively. In the “preamble” the author states that there are Black Iranians ie Persian(their geopgraphic location is in the old Persian Empire region). However he “hypothesize” they were decendants of Zanzibar slaves. Fair enough. Remember Underhill et al did a study and saw evidence of a mixture of ancient and current African SSA lineage spreading into Arabia onto Iran. He, Underhill then concluded some of the samples were NOT slaves.
Anyways. There are FACTS then there is the HYPOTHESIS. ie explaining the facts.
Here are the facts based on the populations sampled.
1. There are black Iranians. Hence the term Afro-Iranians. Don’t be fooled by what is seen on TV. Iran is within the UV “black skin pigmentation belt”. 2. These Black Iranians occupy a region in South West Iran which is the location of the old Persiian Empire. 3. These Black Iranians, fascinatingly carry, in addition to M2, but also “West European R1b L23” AND “East European R1a – M198”. Both markers at about 16%. I have never seen this before! Ever! In any population. And at such high frequency. Anyone? 4. The break down is: R1b – L23 16.7%, R1a – M198 16%, M2 25%, L2 8%, J2 16%, E1b 8.3% Q 8%. Total ~99%. So the math add up. 5. If they are Zanzibar slaves it should be relatively easy to tell…right?. Compare the genetic makeup between Zanzibar and the Black Iranians. But no one has done that.
Now the hypothesis……….based upon the facts……..
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
What is your interpretation of that information?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You may be right Dr Winters but what is puzzling is L23 in Western Europe and M198 in Eastern Europe, but here is an "African" group in Persia carry both. This implies a Black Persian origin ...no?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] What does the data mean?! That is a very good question. I will take a stab at it. Anyone can correct me. These things are really simple really once you look at it objectively. In the “preamble” the author states that there are Black Iranians ie Persian(their geopgraphic location is in the old Persian Empire region). However he “hypothesize” they were decendants of Zanzibar slaves. Fair enough. Remember Underhill et al did a study and saw evidence of a mixture of ancient and current African SSA lineage spreading into Arabia onto Iran. He, Underhill then concluded some of the samples were NOT slaves.
they dont have to be slaves, is some were traders, they are still from East Africa as they themsleves will attest, that's why they have the higher E frequencies
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@Lioness. Hey! You need to answer that question Tukuler asked you. We are waiting.
I attest to be Polish, wink!. Wink! Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] What does the data mean?! That is a very good question. I will take a stab at it. Anyone can correct me. These things are really simple really once you look at it objectively. In the “preamble” the author states that there are Black Iranians ie Persian(their geopgraphic location is in the old Persian Empire region). However he “hypothesize” they were decendants of Zanzibar slaves. Fair enough. Remember Underhill et al did a study and saw evidence of a mixture of ancient and current African SSA lineage spreading into Arabia onto Iran. He, Underhill then concluded some of the samples were NOT slaves.
they dont have to be slaves, is some were traders, they are still from East Africa as they themsleves will attest, that's why they have the higher E frequencies
Can you provide us clear proof that ALL blacks in Persia claim to be either 1. Slaves or 2. Traders? 3. Why is it Herodotus said that the Persian army was 50% ethiop, which means these blacks have been there all along. He also makes mention of a associate who sailed to India and noted that the people in Southern Iran were all black. Can you give us clear, irrefutable evidence to back up your claim? You saying "they claim to be from such and such" isn't proof, thats just your empty words. We need peer reviewed sources.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You may be right Dr Winters but what is puzzling is L23 in Western Europe and M198 in Eastern Europe, but here is an "African" group in Persia carry both. This implies a Black Persian origin ...no?
Correct. Many researchers use various names for the same haplogroup to cause confusion. If you don't go back and read the literature or the researcher does not update his writing you would fail to see the continuity between haplogroups carried by various groups.
Sometimes researchers will lie. For example, Kivisild and his Hindutva friends maintain that M1 does not exist in In dia when they know otherwise.
I will make a prediction. I predict that very soon some researcher will be brave enough to admit that Sub-Saharan Africans carry R1a.
.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am not versed on Herodotus but if I am to make a logical guest based upon scientific data and ignoring what I see on TV or reading, I would say the indigenous people of old Persian lands are suppose to be black. Also reading up on the climate , 120F and hot and humid. Yeah. Sounds like Lagos to me. The genetics says they are not slaves. Are there SSA mtDNA? If not who were the SSA male fughking? Were the Zanj slaves banging the locals?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Hanihara 1997 does show that people of the Iran Bronze Age cluster with sub-Saharan Africans in cranial analysis. The influx or movement of Asiatic types over time into the area could have changed or mixed the population composition.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE] I will make a prediction. I predict that very soon some researcher will be brave enough to admit that Sub-Saharan Africans carry R1a.
.
Carrying an uniparental haplogroup means nothing in this context. Some European population have African haplogroups too (due to contact and admixture with Africans). It certainly doesn't mean it originated in Africa. A question that is meaningless anyway. All human populations admixed with each others to various degrees. European populations have a much greater percentage and diversity of R and F-descendant haplogroups than Africans.
Any Y-DNA R haplogroup (R1a, R1b, etc) are descendant of the F-M89 haplogroup, representive of the non-African population who left Africa during the main OOA migration (Out of Africa).
It's ridiculous to fight about the origin of those haplogroup because F descendant haplogroups are usually very rare in African populations. They are also the products of contacts and admixture with non-African populations.
Since uniparental Y-DNA and mt-DNA hg only give one line of descent and people descend from multiple lines of descent, some people may possess a non-African haplogroup like R and still be 90% African for example (using the full genome or automomal DNA). Same principle of course for other populations and African uniparental haplogroups (orange in the graph).
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Agreed the discovery of R1a in Africa will do it
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You may be right Dr Winters but what is puzzling is L23 in Western Europe and M198 in Eastern Europe, but here is an "African" group in Persia carry both. This implies a Black Persian origin ...no?
Correct. Many researchers use various names for the same haplogroup to cause confusion. If you don't go back and read the literature or the researcher does not update his writing you would fail to see the continuity between haplogroups carried by various groups.
Sometimes researchers will lie. For example, Kivisild and his Hindutva friends maintain that M1 does not exist in In dia when they know otherwise.
I will make a prediction. I predict that very soon some researcher will be brave enough to admit that Sub-Saharan Africans carry R1a.
.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sounds like Ultimate is in Cruciani's camp with R-V88?
@Sage. I am shooting the breeze while you post that new data on Berbers.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ ultimate. Are the Berbers indigenous or not? And why.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sounds like Ultimate is in Cruciani's camp with R-V88?
There is no camp. This is basic genetic knowledge.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ ultimate. Are the Berbers indigenous or not? And why.
This is the wrong question to ask since Berbers have mixed origin. What is important for you, and it is true, is that Berbers and North Africans, including Arabs and people of European origin, have "ownership of the continent" (to use your words) as any citizen of African countries.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ok then. End of discussion with you....
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage. I am shooting the breeze while you post that new data on Berbers.
Shoot on brother.
Meanwhile a little Maurusian geography and climate so we can place Maurusia in context. Note that the Maurusian is limited to a strip of land between the Atlas and the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
20k 14C years ago Africans of littoral Maghreb became shielded from the west, central, and southern Africans by the Last Glacial Arid Maximum climate. Note that the tiny watermelon colored strip labeled Mediterranean scrub at the very tippy top on this map is the Maurusian industry's precise location.
This and following climate and geography maps show when and where spread and migration was facile or restrictive for gene flow in a respective era of time.
1000 miles of desert buffered the Maghreb proper from all the rest of Africa in the Last Glacial Arid Maximum.
Some scholars posit Libya and Egypt had cultural industries similar in aspect to the Maurusian, iirc.
Communication to or from Libya and Egypt via the Mediterranean coast wasn't easy. Likewise for the Atlantic coast south all the way to Guinea. The Maghreb had a tiny strip of scrubland at the very north with semi-desert conditions from there to the Atlas having extreme desert at its southern foot.
Ocean heights were lower in the LGAM so Iberia was very easy to get to (maybe Pantelleria on to Sicily too) when compared to south or eastward flow. No one had to wait for glaciers to melt to go back and forth across the straits of Gibraltar thus no end of LGM refugium exit to the Maghreb which was readily accessible throughout the entire LGM.
Any African phenotypes, cultures, and genes in LGAM Maghreb were there since before 20k including Kefi's overlooked L mtDNA clades.
A caveat on Kefi is that the remains she assessed were from nearer the end of the Maurusian, circa 11-12k.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Herodotus said that the Persian army was 50% ethiop, which means these blacks have been there all along.
Where is the quote? There is no such quote I have seen where Hedodotus says the Persian army was 50 % Ethiopian. - unless it was about the invasion of Egypt, it could be possible. To make such a claim you need to be scholarly and back it with a quote. Also keep in mind Herodotus is considered not always accurate. Regardless, the Persian army was a very diverse. The Persians demanded troops from all of their conquered lands. The army was comprised of Persians, Indians, Elamites, Medes, Bactrians, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Arabians, and Phrygians. The core of the army was made up of Persians and Medes, but the vast majority of the army were light skirmishers from central Asia and the eastern Mediterranean.
Here is a quote from Herodotus:
[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians - for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya (here he is talking about ALL of Africa) are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.
________________________________
So are you including these dark skinned straight haired folk not of Africa, yet whom herodotus calls "Eastern Ethiopians?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sounds like he is saying Maghrebs, East Africans and Indians are all black. Hair texture may be different. Anyone has the exact pure translation. Lioness has a bad habit....lying. He can't help himself.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
C'mon Xyyman, don't be a fish caught on the bait and switch hook.
@ the Lioness Stop it Stop it now Stop trying to divert to whatever Stop trying to distract away from Berbers just because you're getting your ass handed to you
There's a current thread on Eastern Aethiopians here.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sounds like he is saying Maghrebs, East Africans and Indians are all black. Hair texture may be different. Any has the exact pure translation. Lioness has a bad habit....lying.
quote me where I lied asshole
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Don't be a fish. Don't take the bait. Take it to the proper thread or make a new thread. Please do not disrupt my thread with completely off-topic stuff thank you
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: C'mon Xyyman, don't be a fish caught on the bait and switch hook.
@ the Lioness Stop it Stop it now Stop trying to divert to whatever Stop trying to distract away from Berbers just because you're getting your ass handed to you
There's a current thread on Eastern Aethiopians here.
jackass, this thread was about berbers until xyyman made a dumb post about Afro Iranians
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Lioness is not smart enough to play me. I am following his lead on the morphology of the Magrebians. The Afro-Iranian comment was just passing time. So my question still stands. How does Herodotus discribe the Magrebians. Original translation.
Assuming Magrebians, Libyans and Berbers are equivalent.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sounds like he is saying Maghrebs, East Africans and Indians are all black. Hair texture may be different. Anyone has the exact pure translation. Lioness has a bad habit....lying. He can't help himself.
quote me where I lied
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Xyyman
respect me respect my thread
take it outside
I already gave you the proper hyperlink
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Lioness is not smart enough to play me. I am following his lead on the morphology of the Magrebians. The Afro-Iranian comment was just passing time. So my question still stands. How does Herodotus discribe the Magrebians. Original translation.
Assuming Magrebians, Libyans and Berbers are equivalent.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Herodotus said that the Persian army was 50% ethiop, which means these blacks have been there all along.
Where is the quote? There is no such quote I have seen where Hedodotus says the Persian army was 50 % Ethiopian. - unless it was about the invasion of Egypt, it could be possible. To make such a claim you need to be scholarly and back it with a quote. Also keep in mind Herodotus is considered not always accurate. Regardless, the Persian army was a very diverse. The Persians demanded troops from all of their conquered lands. The army was comprised of Persians, Indians, Elamites, Medes, Bactrians, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Arabians, and Phrygians. The core of the army was made up of Persians and Medes, but the vast majority of the army were light skirmishers from central Asia and the eastern Mediterranean.
Here is a quote from Herodotus:
[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians - for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya (here he is talking about ALL of Africa) are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.
________________________________
So are you including these dark skinned straight haired folk not of Africa, yet whom herodotus calls "Eastern Ethiopians?
what you are dealing with is conjecture. No where does he mention the origin of the ethiops in Persia,just that they were there. He also says southern Iran/Persia is completely ethiop.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
C'mon TypeZeiss
Don't aid the Lyin'Ass in taking my thread totally off topic.
Please carry on over at the Herodotus' Eastern Aethiopians thread here
Thank you for respecting my request. Thank you for respecting my thread.
I'm not asking much and peripheral stuff is OK as long as its about Berber biological composition a/o the Maghreb like your earlier contributions.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
The chart of E does apply on the distribution of the Iberomaurusians. As I have stated before, E-M81 is likely a mutation due to climate change.
A chart showing various frequencies of different E clades of modern berbers has nothing to do with Iberomaurusians' DNA
--Show me any Y DNA analysis that even pertains to what hgs they carried, any, specific to Iberomaurusians
I already have shown the distribution. That chart shows the "Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree". Hence the name of the study: "Binary Polymorphisms".
You have shown nothing. You asked me for a skeleton of Iberomaurusians I showed you one.
They are a specific unique group and have noted morphological differences to Capsians as noted by archaeologists. They lived in the Maghreb for about 10,000 years.
I asked you for YDNA of this specific group of skeletons called Iberomaurusian in as specific place in Morroco.
You showed none therefore you don't know what the paternal haplogroups of Iberomaurusians is , period. end of story
WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.
THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU THE NUCLEAR TRIATS OF THESE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE. I CANT HELP IT THAT YOU ARE TOO DUB TO UNDERSTAND ANY IF THIS.
YOU FAIL AGAIN!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: what you are dealing with is conjecture. No where does he mention the origin of the ethiops in Persia,just that they were there. He also says southern Iran/Persia is completely ethiop. [/QB]
[3.17] After this Cambyses took counsel with himself, and planned three expeditions. One was against the Carthaginians, another against the Ammonians, and a third against the long-lived Ethiopians, who dwelt in that part of Libya which borders upon the southern sea.
[3.100] There is another set of Indians whose customs are very different. They refuse to put any live animal to death, they sow no corn, and have no dwelling-houses. Vegetables are their only food. There is a plant which grows wild in their country, bearing seed, about the size of millet-seed, in a calyx: their wont is to gather this seed and having boiled it, calyx and all, to use it for food. If one of them is attacked with sickness, he goes forth into the wilderness, and lies down to die; no one has the least concern either for the sick or for the dead.
[3.101] All the tribes which I have mentioned live together like the brute beasts: they have also all the same tint of skin, which approaches that of the Ethiopians. Their country is a long way from Persia towards the south: nor had king Darius ever any authority over them.
________
He was succeeded on the throne, they said, by a blind man, a native of Anysis, whose own name also was Anysis. Under him Egypt was invaded by a vast army of Ethiopians, led by Sabacos, their king. The blind Anysis fled away to the marsh-country, and the Ethiopian was lord of the land for fifty years, during which his mode of rule was the following:- When an Egyptian was guilty of an offence, his plan was not to punish him with death: instead of so doing, he sentenced him, according to the nature of his crime, to raise the ground to a greater or a less extent in the neighbourhood of the city to which he belonged. Thus the cities came to be even more elevated than they were before. As early as the time of Sesostris, they had been raised by those who dug the canals in his reign; this second elevation of the soil under the Ethiopian king gave them a very lofty position. Among the many cities which thus attained to a great elevation, none (I think) was raised so much as the town called Bubastis, where there is a temple of the goddess Bubastis, which well deserves to be described.
Psammis reigned only six years. He attacked Ethiopia, and died almost directly afterwards. Apries, his son, succeeded him upon the throne, who, excepting Psammetichus, his great-grandfather, was the most prosperous of all the kings that ever ruled over Egypt.
The Garamantians have four-horse chariots, in which they chase the Troglodyte Ethiopians, who of all the nations whereof any account has reached our ears are by far the swiftest of foot.
The Arabians, and the Ethiopians who came from the region above Egypt, were commanded by Arsames, the son of Darius and of Artystone daughter of Cyrus. This Artystone was the best-beloved of all the wives of Darius; and it was she whose statue he caused to be made of gold wrought with the hammer. Her son Arsames commanded these two nations.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.
THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.
YOU FAIL AGAIN! [/qb]
How many times do I have to show you this?
_________________________________________________
Human burial at Taforalt under excavation ____________________________________________
COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262. ISSN 0018-442X. Abstract:
We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Lioness is not smart enough to play me. I am following his lead on the morphology of the Magrebians. The Afro-Iranian comment was just passing time. So my question still stands. How does Herodotus discribe the Magrebians. Original translation.
Assuming Magrebians, Libyans and Berbers are equivalent.
Herodotus (484 BCE – c. 425 BCE) was a Greek Historian as well as known as the Father of Lies. These two titles were commonly held hand in hand as the early recorders of history were attempting to record an objective recounting of events while taking their stories from first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc accounts instead of recording a direct experience. Also entwined in the pejorative label of “Father of Lies” is that Herodotus was susceptible to subjective inclusion or exclusion of histories based on his personal involvement with peoples. Thebans and Corinthians who both denied him funds for his work subsequently suffered not the prettiest of pictures when recounted in Herodotus' work. Athenians gave him a fortune, thus perhaps securing a favorable telling of their exploits. Regardless, Herodotus was one of the first writers to bring together historical accounts (whether tweaked by the tellers or himself or not) and the only one to have survived in the form of The Histories. Therefore, the moniker of Father of History sticks.
[...]
Herodotus would also talk to many people and would recount the different accounts before choosing to promote the one that he found most probable. This is probably what garnered him the moniker of Father of Lies for within his history exist some pretty tall tales.
[...]
It is speculated that The Histories must have been around 415 BCE. Before that, Herodotus's craft would have looked very much like Homer's. The culture around the Mediterranean was oral and not written and just as Herodotus gained his knowledge from oral storytelling, he passed on much of it in this way as well.
^^^ message to typeZeiss and xyyman. Troll Patrol says Herodotus is the father of lies so disregard what he says
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.
THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.
YOU FAIL AGAIN!
How many times do I have to show you this?
[/QB]
Photograph: Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt.
How many times I have to ask you for evidence of Eurasian females Paleolithic, Holocene Africa?
Is my question so hard to understand?
quote: Environmental factors in human evolution and dispersals in the Upper Pleistocene of the western Mediterranean
EFCHED
Our project examined the early human occupation of Morocco in the Upper Pleistocene, with the broad aims of identifying changes in the archaeological and environ-mental records and assessing whether these may be correlated with global climatic events.
Northern and eastern Morocco are of critical interest because they lie on a potentially important human dispersal route extending from the Maghreb westwards along the Mediterranean coast and close to the narrow strait that separates Africa from Europe.
Yet, despite the distinctiveness of its geographical location, it is unclear whether cultural successions in this region were predominantly local events, indicative of isolation and endemism, or influenced by demographic movements from outside.
In particular, surprisingly little is known about the chronology of the Middle and Upper Palaeolithic or of the palaeoenvironmental background to human occupation during this time.
Our study has focused principally on caves in the north and east of the country. Here there is a wealth of Palaeolithic evidence, often in well-preserved contexts and with possibilities for obtaining dating analyses and multi-proxy data to reconstruct former environments.
These data include a wide range of materials such as charcoals and phytoliths, small and large fossil mammals, reptiles, amphibians, birds and molluscs.
One of the key sites is Grotte de Pigeons at Taforalt, near the border with Algeria. Our excavations and sampling of this cave have produced over 40 AMS radiocarbon determinations, OSL, TL and U-series dates from cultural and other horizons spanning the Middle and Upper Palaeolithic.
This work is still ongoing but already provides one of the longest dated sequences for these periods from anywhere in the North African Maghreb.
Results and future directions
1. We have demonstrated that the Upper Palaeolithic, locally known as the Ibero-maurusian, probably dates no earlier than 17.085ka (YS occupation horizon 2).
However, artefacts in the underlying YS occupation horizons 3 (22.2ka) and 4 (25.76ka) neither fall within the Ibero-maurusian nor do they seem to fit the description of the Middle Palaeolithic Aterian described by earlier excavators.
While it is possible that the types found belong to hitherto unrecognised 'transitional Middle-Upper Palaeolithic industries', we believe it more prudent at the moment to leave any precise attribution until further work has been completed.
These results nevertheless refute the view still held by some archaeologists that the Maghreb was abandoned by humans between 40-20ka.
2. Using the calibrated age scales it is possible to show that Upper Palaeolithic Iberomaurusian and earlier human activities at Taforalt were broadly contemporary with a number of presumed cooling episodes in the oceanic record.
However the exact status of Heinrich Events and Dansgaard-Oeschger cycles in relation to climatic change still needs to be fully clarified and it may be too simplistic to interpret all of these episodes in the same way and purely in terms of major cooling and drying.
Thus although it seems reasonable to acknowledge a correlation between Heinrich Events and occupation episodes at Taforalt, the case for climate change as a dominant factor in this process cannot be fully tested until further work on reconstructing the palaeoenvironmental sequence has been completed.
3. Evidence of human mortuary activity in the Iberomaurusian Upper Palaeolithic comes from undisturbed human burials at the back of the cave.
Excavations in 2005 and 2006 revealed the partially articulated skeletons of four adults.
Individuals were buried in a crouched or seated position and are closely associated with horn cores of various sizes, which are absent elsewhere in the deposit.
Other burials have been identified but not yet fully excavated, including those of infants, children and adults.
We do not have direct dating evidence for the burials yet, but it is clear from thicker sequences of sediments preserved elsewhere in the cave that they come from within grey ashy deposits (overlying the YS series).
The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
The new excavations provide the first opportunity to record human mortuary activity at Grotte de Pigeons in detail and may contribute to a revised interpretation of the existing osteological sample.
We will now study the human fossils for evidence of diet, activity patterns, skeletal and dental disease, and cultural modification in order to develop an overall understanding of human lifestyle during this period.
We will also try to establish the relationship between the Iberomaurusian people of Taforalt and other previous and subsequent human groups within the region.
4. Investigation of the lower sequence of Middle Palaeolithic layers at Taforalt has revealed a major series of archaeological horizons in ashy deposits with associated faunal and botanical remains.
Preliminary dating based on luminescence and U-series determinations suggests human occupation occurred during late MIS6 and continued intermittently until <40ka.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.
THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.
YOU FAIL AGAIN!
How many times do I have to show you this?
_________________________________________________
Human burial at Taforalt under excavation ____________________________________________
COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262. ISSN 0018-442X. Abstract:
We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones. [/QB]
Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^^^Mike, you need to empty your message box. I do have important info.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ message to typeZeiss and xyyman. Troll Patrol says Herodotus is the father of lies so disregard what he says
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa?
Yes, and so is the specimen equal to other specimen from the South, which happen to be of indigenous Africans. Do you understand that?
If the specimen is and was Eurasian it would have shown so. It did and does not, do you understand that?
I have posted many Moroccan specimen from the same time period, do you understand that?
I showed them in profile, do you understand that?
So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.
Tick tock...
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: C'mon TypeZeiss
Don't aid the Lyin'Ass in taking my thread totally off topic.
Please carry on over at the Herodotus' Eastern Aethiopians thread here
Thank you for respecting my request. Thank you for respecting my thread.
I'm not asking much and peripheral stuff is OK as long as its about Berber biological composition a/o the Maghreb like your earlier contributions.
I apologize
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.
THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.
YOU FAIL AGAIN!
How many times do I have to show you this?
_________________________________________________
Human burial at Taforalt under excavation ____________________________________________
COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262. ISSN 0018-442X. Abstract:
We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.
Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc. [/QB]
It confirms exactly this:
quote: *Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)(2008)
For your comparison:
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
quote:
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together,
[...]
The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa? [/qb]
Yes, and so is the specimen equal to other specimen from the South. Do you understand that?
This shows you lack objective reasoning. It's called a forgone conclusion. I understand you rthought process now.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
If the specimen is and was Eurasian it would have shown so. It did and does not, do you understand that?
You claim the specimen does not show it's Eurasian. You have no basis for saying this. You think just by saying it must be true
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
I have posted many Moroccan specimen from the same time period, do you understand that?
I showed them in profile, do you understand that?
yes I understand that but not all Paleolithic Moroccoans were Iberomaurusian, one example are Capsians who have a different morphology
>>> but you didn't not post an Iberomaurusian in profile and they were around for about 10,000 years
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.
Tick tock... [/QB]
Nobody is waiting for me to post the same thing over and over agian but you. I posted a Paleolithic cold adapted Iberomaurusian from Morroco and also is from a 12K Bp population that has European/Eurasian DNA. I have doing what you requested
yet you keep asking to see it over and over again
because you are an expert who can analyze human remains from burial photos and know more than professional scientists who measured and charted these Taforalt remains and took DNA samples. And you didn't even have an explantion as to your eyeball assessment, you just ask the same thing over and over.
You are like someone who says all apples are red. I then post a green apple. You then say "post a green apple, tick tock, tick tock" then I post it again and the process repeats endlessly It's a form of autism
It's a neat trick to make people think I haven't answered the request even though I have. You have no rebuttal you just ignore tha answer and ask it over and over again, with the long repetative reply copies, destroying the readability of threads
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc. [/QB]
He ripped it off from Tukuler. So the assumption is that Iberomaurusians were of the same stock as Sudanese? What about the fact that Sudanese are very tropically adapted and Iberomaurusians have limb rations like Alaskans as shown by Trenton Holliday one of the most prominent paleoanthropologists in the world. You cannot determine ancestry by a cultural tradition alone, and use it as a cause for exteme denial. Could that be political And it was also practiced in ancient Israel
The Iberomaurusians were settled in Africa for 10,000 years. Do you think this tooth removal tradition therefore had to be a black African thing only? And once a foreign population is in a new region they are called "indigenous" or "natve" at that point, example, "Native Americans" - Asians who came form Siberia across the bearing strait
Consider the mentality, people who post tons of DNA and physiocal anthropolgy data, then when they don't like the results throw it away
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa?
Yes, and so is the specimen equal to other specimen from the South. Do you understand that?
This shows you lack objective reasoning. It's called a forgone conclusion. I understand you rthought process now.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
If the specimen is and was Eurasian it would have shown so. It did and does not, do you understand that?
You claim the specimen does not show it's Eurasian. You have no basis for saying this. You think just by saying it must be true
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
I have posted many Moroccan specimen from the same time period, do you understand that?
I showed them in profile, do you understand that?
yes I understand that but not all Paleolithic Moroccoans were Iberomaurusian, one example are Capsians who have a different morphology
>>> but you didn't not post an Iberomaurusian in profile and they were around for about 10,000 years
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.
Tick tock... [/QB]
Nobody is waiting for me to post the same thing over and over agian but you. I posted a Paleolithic cold adapted Iberomaurusian from Morroco and also is from a 12K Bp population that has European/Eurasian DNA. I have doing what you requested
yet you keep asking to see it over and over again
because you are an expert who can analyze human remains from burial photos and know more than professional scientists who measured and charted these Taforalt remains and took DNA samples. And you didn't even have an explantion as to your eyeball assessment, you just ask the same thing over and over.
You are like someone who says all apples are red. I then post a green apple. You then say "post a green apple, tick tock, tick tock" then I post it again and the process repeats endlessly It's a form of autism
It's a neat trick to make people think I haven't answered the request even though I have. You have no rebuttal you just ignore tha answer and ask it over and over again, with the long repetative reply copies, destroying the readability of threads [/QB]
So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.
Photograph: Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt.
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:
quote: The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology) Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by KING: Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc.
He ripped it off from Tukuler. So the assumption is that Iberomaurusians were of the same stock as Sudanese? What about the fact that Sudanese are very tropically adapted and Iberomaurusians have limb rations like Alaskans as shown by Trenton Holliday one of the most prominent paleoanthropologists in the world. You cannot determine ancestry by a cultural tradition alone, and use it as a cause for exteme denial. Could that be political And it was also practiced in ancient Israel
The Iberomaurusians were settled in Africa for 10,000 years. Do you think this tooth removal tradition therefore had to be a black African thing only? And once a foreign population is in a new region they are called "indigenous" or "natve" at that point, example, "Native Americans" - Asians who came form Siberia across the bearing strait
Consider the mentality, people who post tons of DNA and physiocal anthropolgy data, then when they don't like the results throw it away [/QB]
You are now literally making up shyt.
quote: ... most of the older hypotheses about North African population settlement used to suppose an Iberian or an eastern origin. The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998).
quote: Our project examined the early human occupation of Morocco in the Upper Pleistocene, with the broad aims of identifying changes in the archaeological and environ-mental records and assessing whether these may be correlated with global climatic events.
[...]
However the exact status of Heinrich Events and Dansgaard-Oeschger cycles in relation to climatic change still needs to be fully clarified and it may be too simplistic to interpret all of these episodes in the same way and purely in terms of major cooling and drying.
[...]
Thus although it seems reasonable to acknowledge a correlation between Heinrich Events and occupation episodes at Taforalt, the case for climate change as a dominant factor in this process cannot be fully tested until further work on reconstructing the palaeoenvironmental sequence has been completed.
quote: Regular Middle Paleolithic inventories as well as Middle Paleolithic inventories of Aterian type have a long chronology in Morocco going back to MIS 6 and are interstratified in some sites. Their potential for detecting chrono-cultural patterns is low. The transition from the Middle to Upper Paleolithic, here termed Early Upper Paleolithic—at between 30 to 20 ka—remains a most enigmatic era. Scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental reconsidering of human presence. By integrating environmental data in the reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Paleolithic deposits, possibly indicative of a very low presence of humans in Morocco. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly with the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna, and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas again shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Paleolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipaleolithic occupation. Therefore, the late glacial cultural sequence of Morocco is a good test case for analyzing the interrelationship of culture and climate change.
--Late Pleistocene Human Occupation of Northwest Africa: A Crosscheck of Chronology and Climate Change in Morocco Jörg Linstädter, Prehistoric Archaeology, Cologne University, GERMANY Josef Eiwanger, KAAK, German Archaeological Institute, GERMANY Abdessalam Mikdad, INSAP, MOROCCO Gerd-Christian Weniger, Neanderthal Museum, GERMANY
quote: North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia.
--On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier.
quote:
Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely cold-adapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European-derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, bi-iliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Jun;142(2):287-302. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21226. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
This is some inserting observance by The Explorer on specimen.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Recapitulating some personal observations posted elsewhere:
The authors started out with 31 EpiPaleolithic specimens, and they tell the reader that they were left with working with 26 specimens after eliminating certain named specimens for one reason or the other, which was then reduced to first 24 and then 23 specimens. Yet, we come to learn that even those 23 specimens were reduced further down to just 21 specimens that were used in the final analysis. In the above, the authors named yet another two specimens, both alleged to be closely related to one specimen retained in the final analysis; the names of the three related specimen were given above as follows; Taf V-5, Taf V-7 and Taf V-20. One of these, we are not told specifically which one, was to have been considered in the final analysis, while the other two [again, we are not told which two of the three closely related specimens] would have been eliminated from the study.
Perhaps a relatively minor issue, it is of note that Taf V-5's and Taf V-20's fragment sequences start earlier and end earlier than that of Taf V-7, with the former's sequences between positions 16054 and 16317 having been compared against those of the Cambridge Reference Sequence, while the latter's was read from 16081 and 16404; what if mutations in positions prior to 16081 in Taf V-7's case and after 16317 in either Taf V-5's or Taf V-20's case were different from those of either Taf V-5 or Taf V-20, and V-7 respectively; could there be mutations here that could drastically alter what the authors would call the "most likely haplogroups" that these specimens' markers fall into? Something to ponder, but at any rate, along with the earlier named three contaminated specimens, the aforementioned two closely-related specimens would have amounted to five specimens being eliminated, reducing the 31 specimens down to 26. However, the authors provide the reader with a table consisting of 23 individual specimens, and all three of those closely related individuals were in it! What they did not tell the reader, nor did they identify them by name or tag, and hence, possibly leaving an unsuspecting reader scratching his/her head, is that five more specimens were excluded from the study, which were not included in the aforementioned table. These undeclared left-out specimens are namely; Taf VI-9, Taf XVII-18, Taf XIX-7, Taf XXI, and Taf I—missing specimens not named! The reader is not offered explanation on why these were not made part of the study, and so left on his/her own, to wonder what might have been wrong with them. They could have been damaged, degraded or contaminated; any or a combination of any of these could have affected sequences of those specimens. Had the authors therefore eliminated those aforementioned specimens with inconsistent and therefore dubious sequences, they would have been left with fairly small amount of individual DNA material to work with, and even then, the results would not be unequivocal, given that a good deal of their overall sample size would have been purged from the final analysis; the integrity of the so-called "good" DNA would have been put to question as well. Through it all, the authors could not even get themselves to firmly assign the sequences into a specific haplogroup set.
"This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP"
quote:Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
code:
Geography Founder Analysis
Migration Time (ka) % of L3 Lineages (SE)
East Africa 58.8 74.0 (0.5)
1.8 20.1 (2.6) 0.1 5.9 (2.5)
Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7) 9.2 24.1 (2.8) 0.1 0.9 (0.2)
North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7) 6.6 67.0 (4.0) 0.6 25.7 (3.1)
South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3) 0.1 13.3 (4.3)
South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7) 0.1 16.6 (3.7)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ish
Lyin'Ass has never shown any Taforalt physical remains are equivalent to any Iberian skulls a/o skeletons.
She cannot do it because it is not so.
This has been demonstrated over and again in this thread where she failed miserably to produce the required evidence.
Why? Because there is none.
She is just going to squawk her nonsense and act like if her lie is repeated often enough then like magic it'll be factual.
In the meantime I'd thank you to leave Herodotus, Eastern Aitiopians, etc., out of my thread. There is a already a 2 pg thread for that. I'll bump it since the links I gave aren't rerouting discussion there.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
It's a neat trick to make people think I haven't answered the request even though I have. You have no rebuttal you just ignore tha answer and ask it over and over again, with the long repetative reply copies, destroying the readability of threads
Keep on fronting like you just don't get it like you don't understand what is required of you.
People aren't as stupid as you think silly rabbit. The only trickster is the one who cannot post raw data or statistics of * Late Upper Paleolithic or Epipaleolithic * fossil skull and or skeletal remains * from Taforalt * that are the same as Iberia after blurting out the following reactionary roorag in simplistic fashion:
U couldn't compare to show 1- Magdalenian Europe/Azilian Pyrenees (Paleolithic Eurasians) __ crania and skeletons(physical remains) are a match for 2- Maurusian Taforalt (North Africa)
U haven't done it yet U r not going to try to do it now cos U can't do it never
Fail, the Lioness, a big fail 4 u !!!
The dance is done and u along w/it. We know u'll keep repeatin when you need be retreatin but this is the end for you about this
Cro-Magnon North Africans went out with button up shoes and your boyfriend Carleton Coon.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
!
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Kefi's study is in French only. Have you read it?
Keep up the good work guys.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Her facial traits are quite interesting.
give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread. Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Her facial traits are quite interesting.
give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread. Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing
Trollkillah, don't fall for this, its a trap. This thread will turn into a flickr photo war.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Trollkillah, don't fall for this, its a trap. This thread will turn into a flickr photo war. [/QB]
Troll's not scared, he loves photo wars
Plus this is not going even going to be a war of photos.
If he puts up photos of the other authors I will accept his selection of photos. Once the photos are up I want to see if the people in the photos have interesting features.
Your position on berbers is different from Troll's. He says that the berbers of today are mainly African. You say because of of the European women that the Turkish and Moroccan pirates kidnapped, that the berbers are mainly European but are mixed with Africans/Turks/Arabs
The largest populations of berbers live in Algeria and Morocco
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Her facial traits are quite interesting.
give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread. Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing
I happen to find Kefi's facial traits and profile interesting. If you are interested in the facial traits and profile of other authors, go ahead. And do yo' thang and post them.
P.s. Do not forget to respond to Tukuler. I am sure he has excellent data for you.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Her facial traits are quite interesting.
give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread. Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing
Trollkillah, don't fall for this, its a trap. This thread will turn into a flickr photo war.
Of course that's nonsense. But she/ he probably has problems with Kefi her facial traits.
Here look genetics 101, by well known geneticist.
Listen good to the part where she speaks of deep levels of nuclear DNA. And how it wasn't possible to detect earlier on (a few years ago). Yet, we see TMCRA in Kefi's study and not the deep levels of nuclear DNA. Ironically, more recent studies do reveal deep nuclear levels of L mtDNA in modern Berbers. How is that possible?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt.
It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East).
At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture).
This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.
The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa. Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago.
Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data.
I keep posting this quote every time the topic of Berbers popup. In American history and according to their documentation of the slaves it reads:
Chapter One The Status of the Negro, his Rights and Disabilities
SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
There are a lot of debate about who the ancient Berbers were and are - but it appears that the ancient Berbers or great population of them may actually be in the Americas traded as slave (prisoners of war).
What's amazing to me is that we do population genetics based on current population not taking into consideration the expulsion of people from their homelands.
History: Papal Bull Dum Diversas (18 June, 1452)
“We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors”.
I love the study of genetics but history (historical documentation) must be taken into total consideration as well. Many of the lands across the northern shores of Africa were seized by and subdued. Many of the populations were taken to West African and sold to the Americas.
If you look back up to the Carolina negro slave law section for and read what was actually descree by the Papal Bull(s) - it basically reads the same as the decree given to the Portuguese empire.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Well at least in 2009 Kefi admitted Sudan genetics go back to 9k in NA. But she still didn't 'fess up her 2005 errors about 13k Taforalt having no non-local African mtDNA, i.e., L3/M/N per her own report.
And when we use Kefi2005's raw data, as sparse as it is, we uncover a 29% supposedly "SSA" component from a variety of L haplgroups.
My L assignments were based on Watson (1997) which was perfectly valid for reviewing 2005 mtDNA sequences. Using Kefi's given HVS-I motifs there are six L specimens in total.
Updating Watson (1997) via Stefflova (2011)
126C: Watson's L2 is Stefflova's L2 L2a Watson's L3a is Stefflova's L4 L4g
298C: Watson's L3a found in one Yoruba specimen is hg V in Stefflova. Trovoada (2004) reported 298c in L1c1b1a, maybe as likey as Kefi's prediction of hg V for TafV 27, that specimen's sole found mutation (pending L1c1b1a's age).
Maurusian cultural industry population beginnings and so-called SSA mtDNA has to be questioned in light of climatology. What were conditions like before 25k? When was it easy to travel all across Africa? Of course with the onset of the LGAM it would be easier for Iberia -> Maghreb travel than from anywhere in Africa.
H1 & H3 are too young to have been around for the founding of the Maurusian since H itself was just aborning at that time.
V is entirely too young for Maurusian beginnings and is even questionable for Kefi's 13k date for the Taforalt osteological remains.
JT however is well old enough to be present when the Maurusian started.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Algeria and Morocco have the largest poulations of berbers
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape 2013
Asmahan Bekada, Rosa Fregel, Vicente M. Cabrera, José M. Larruga, José Pestano, Soraya Benhamamouch, Ana M. González
Abstract
North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA) and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident. The presence of East-West and North-South haplogroup frequency gradients strongly reinforces the genetic complexity of this region. However, this genetic scenario is beset with a notable gap, which is the lack of consistent information for Algeria, the largest country in the Maghreb. To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA [U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal [E-M81 and E-V65; 70%). The unexpected presence of the European-derived Y-chromosome lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb could be the counterparts of the mtDNA H1, H3 and V subgroups, pointing to direct maritime contacts between the European and North African sides of the western Mediterranean. Female influx of sub-Saharan Africans into Algeria [20%) is also significantly greater than the male [10%). In spite of these sexual asymmetries, the Algerian uniparental profiles faithfully correlate between each other and with the geography.
Of all North African populations, Eurasian lineages are the most frequent in Algeria [80%) while sub-Saharan Africa origin accounts for the remaining 20%.
Algerian Y-chromosome profile
Results for the sub-typing of haplogroups E-M78 and R-M343 in the Iberian Peninsula and Northwest African countries including Algeria are presented in Figure 1. In general, data for E-M78 agree with the previous analysis [41]. Therefore, the Eurasian E-V13 is the most common sub-group in Iberia, although one North African E-V65 type has also been detected. On the African side, the lack of E-M78 representatives in a total sample of 189 males from the W. Saharan-Mauritanian area is notable. For the Maghreb countries, the fact that the number of males belonging to para-group E-M78* is the same as those included in the autochthonous E-V65 group also stands out.
For the R-M343 subdivision, the Iberian Peninsula reflects a genuine European profile [45] except for the presence of one Sahel R-V88 type. In contrast, all R-M343 detected in W. Saharan-Mauritanian belong to sub-group R-V88, reaching a frequency of 7%, similar to those observed in other Sahel samples [40]. In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%. On the other hand, the presence in this area of representatives of the European sub-groups R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 points to North-South maritime contacts across the Mediterranean.
the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades.
Comparisons between North African and Mediterranean Europe maternal and paternal gene pools [10]–[13] reveal sharp discontinuities and limited gene flow between both areas.Furthermore, Berbers constitute a very heterogeneous group showing significant differences even between geographically close communities [14]–[20]. However, an unexpected lack of differentiation between Berber and Arab speaking communities was found [15], [21]–[23].[
These results suggest that the Arabization phenomenon was mainly an acculturation process of the indigenous Berber population. However, the significantly higher presence of the prominently Arab Y-chromosome J-M267 haplogroup in cosmopolitan compared to rural samples pointed to a substantial male-biased Arab influence in North Africa and the Levant [11], [15], [16], although it is probable that the diffusion of Islam only reinforced previous human displacements [24], [25]. Interestingly, wide geographical longitudinal gradients are detectable overlying local microstructure in North Africa for several uniparental markers [15], [17], [26], [27]. Some of these lineages, such as the mtDNA haplogroups U6 [28]–[30], M1 [29], [31], [32] and X1 [33] had their ancestral roots in the Middle East but expanded in North Africa since Paleolithic times with instances of secondary dispersion in this area. Others, like sub-haplogroup U5b1b [34], sub-haplogroups H1 and H3 [20], [35], [36] and haplogroup V [37] seem to have reached North Africa from Iberia in a post-last glacial maximum expansion. In concordance, an ancient DNA study from Ibero-Maurusian bone remains from Taforalt in Morocco detected the presence of haplogroups U6, V, T and probably H, pointing to a Paleolithic genetic continuity in Northwest Africa [38]. Additionally, male lineages also provide support to a Paleolithic Asia to Africa back migration [39] with Holocene trans-Saharan spreads as testified by the haplogroup R-V88 distribution
The impressive genetic information gathered from North Africa is beset with a notable gap, the lack of consistent information for the Algerian populations. Algeria is the largest country of the Maghreb and, in fact, the largest country of the whole continent. Although at mtDNA sequencing level the first North African sample studied was from an Algerian Berber-speaking Mozabite population [43], it resulted to be a very isolated group not representative of the whole Algerian population.
POPULATION, ALGERIA BERBERS Estimated (2004): Between 6.6 and 9.9 million est.
Ethnicity: Kabyle, Shawiya, Mozabites and Tuareg
First language/s: Tamazight
The Berber culture is not homogenous. Its existing constituent subcultures have relatively little in common outside the common root of their spoken dialects. About half of the Berber-speaking population is concentrated in the mountainous areas east of Algiers – Kabylia – and this area and its language have been at the centre of most Berber issues in modern Algeria. Over time the Kabyles have moved in large numbers to the cities of both Algeria and France in search of employment. The second largest Berber group, the Shawiya, inhabit the rugged mountains of eastern Algeria. Two smaller Berber communities are the Mozabites of the area around Ghardaia and the Tuareg nomads of the south. The 12,000 Tuareg, who are nomadic Berbers, live almost exclusively in the mountainous massifs of Ajjer and Ahaggar in southern Algeria. Geographical dispersion of Berber-speakers has hindered the emergence of a common identity. Kabyles are the most cosmopolitan and are more likely to speak French than other groups. Most Berbers were Christian prior to the mid-seventh century, when waves of Arab migration into the region brought cultural changes and introduced Islam. All Berbers, except Mozabites, are Sunni Muslims.
Although rural Berber life remained largely unchanged, those living in the cities saw their language, tribal law and oral literary traditions meld with Arabic traditions. From the eleventh to the fifteenth centuries, forced back into the mountain regions by the city-based sultanates, the Berbers refused to recognize central authority or to pay taxes.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Asmahan Bekada, et al., 2013 Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
The underscored points out that Bekada's statement speaks to the North African vs subSaharan Africa dichotomy whereby any and everything in Africa above 17° N gets appropriated for Eurasia.
Thus Bekada making her North African component a subset of the Eurasian component.
Bekada's percentages as stated are only so because North Africa and subSaharan Africa are not one unit Africa vs Eurasia.
North Africa as a part of Eurasia is biased.
When I present Bekada's data North Africa and subSahara Africa will count as African since it takes them both to have a continent Africa.
My correction of the quoted statement: The Eurasian component in Algeria is 60% for mtDNA and 20% for Y-chromosome, without the North African genetic components mtDNA U6 & M1 and paternal E-M81 & E-V65.
Algerians are primarily not African? Not per Bekada's uniparental African raw data. Algerians are 60% African and 40% non-African.
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape 2013
Asmahan Bekada, Rosa Fregel, Vicente M. Cabrera, José M. Larruga, José Pestano, Soraya Benhamamouch, Ana M. González
Algerian Y-chromosome profile
Results for the sub-typing of haplogroups E-M78 and R-M343 in the Iberian Peninsula and Northwest African countries including Algeria are presented in Figure 1. In general, data for E-M78 agree with the previous analysis [41]. Therefore, the Eurasian E-V13 is the most common sub-group in Iberia, although one North African E-V65 type has also been detected. On the African side, the lack of E-M78 representatives in a total sample of 189 males from the W. Saharan-Mauritanian area is notable. For the Maghreb countries, the fact that the number of males belonging to para-group E-M78* is the same as those included in the autochthonous E-V65 group also stands out.
For the R-M343 subdivision, the Iberian Peninsula reflects a genuine European profile [45] except for the presence of one Sahel R-V88 type. In contrast, all R-M343 detected in W. Saharan-Mauritanian belong to sub-group R-V88, reaching a frequency of 7%, similar to those observed in other Sahel samples [40]. In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%. On the other hand, the presence in this area of representatives of the European sub-groups R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 points to North-South maritime contacts across the Mediterranean.
Supplementary Table S6 presents frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroups, as spread out as possible, for the same countries-areas as performed for the mtDNA analysis. Clearly, markers E-V65, E-M81 and J1-M267 confirm the geographic and ethnic identity of Algeria but, while E-M81 represents an autochthonous group that sharply decreases in Egypt, J1-M267 points to a Levantine influence. Haplogroups G-M201, L-M20, R2-M124, T-M70, J2-M172 and the majority of derived J2 sub-groups all reflect West Asian influences on Europe with only weak inputs on North Africa. On their part, several European I sub-groups also extend to West Asia with minor gene flow to the African countries. Exceptions to this general pattern are the subgroups J2-M67 and R-M412 that have similar frequencies in Algeria as in Europe, and R2-M124 whose frequency in Egypt is not significantly different from the mean value of European and West Asian areas. These geographic influences are graphically reflected in the PCA analysis [Figure 2B]. All the European countries are aligned in a diagonal transect running from the Iberian Peninsula to Turkey and the Caucasus, according to their respective geographic positions, and well separated from the North African countries. Within North Africa, the Maghreb region appears well differentiated from Egypt, which, reflecting its geographical position, is near to the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula. The most influential haplogroups in the first component separation are: E-M81, E-V65 and R-V88 that pull the North African countries together, and J-M172, R-M173, R-M17, R-M124 and R-L23 that pull West Asian countries in the opposite direction. In the second component, haplogroups R-L11, R-M529, R-U198, I-M223 and I-M26 are responsible for the spread of the European Mediterranean countries away from Egypt and Arabia, which in turn are pulled by J-M267, B-M60, E-V22 and E-M123.
Y-chromosome haplogroup J-M267 frequency is also the highest in Algeria. The presence of this clear Middle Eastern haplogroup in other areas has been attributed to prehistoric spreads [25], [79] and to the historic Islamic rule [15]. The localized distribution of the two most common haplotypes found in Algerians belonging to J1-M267 [44] points to an ancient implantation of this cluster in the country. However, the notable incidence of J2-M67 is most probably due to Aegean contacts [79], [80].
The unexpected presence of the European male lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in the Mahgreb could be the male counterpart of the maternal gene flow signaled by the mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3 and HV0. In fact, there are several haplogroups with clear geographical origins from European or North African sides of the Mediterranean, but also present on the opposite side. This could be used to estimate the respective levels of gene flow between areas, assuming that their present day frequencies in the source countries were the same when they spread to the other Mediterranean shore. Thus, mean frequency values for the native North African male clusters E-M81 and E-V65 in the Maghreb [Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya], are 40.03±11.66 and 3.40±0.60 respectively. The mean values for the same markers in western-central Mediterranean Europe [Iberian Peninsula, France and Corsica, Italy, Sardinia and Sicily] are 1.86±1.28 and 0.26±0.8 respectively. Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. Applying the same reasoning, mtDNA U6 and M1 frequencies on the European side would indicate the maternal gene flow from the Maghreb, the estimated value being around 10%. However, when we tried to calculate the European maternal input into the Maghreb using the H1, H3 and HV0 haplogroups, we realized that their respective mean frequencies in Mediterranean Europe [38.33+4.31, 17.27+3.57 and 5.23+1.06] are within the same range as those found in the Maghreb [42.05+4.92, 13.1+3.51 and 6.99+0.90]. This would imply a 100% European contribution to the maternal pool of the Maghreb. The fact that the three markers show similar frequencies on both sides rules out stochastic processes as a possible explanation, but further analyses, based on complete mtDNA sequences, are mandatory to investigate alternative scenarios.
Genetic and geographic distances faithfully correlate for both uniparental markers [Figure 2], indicating populations from both sides of the Mediterranean remained apart until meeting in the Levant. This similarity allowed us to confront the main maternal and paternal discriminating contributors to the PCAs spatial distribution. Some equivalences are expected such as mtDNA U6a and Y-chromosome E-M81 and E-V65 affecting Maghreb countries, and that the West African mtDNA L clades and Y-chromosome R-V88 pulls W. Saharan-Mauritanian further over, or that the Mediterranean Europe distribution is largely determined by mtDNA and Y-chromosome lineages with origins and/or dispersions within Europe. However, these coincidences only reflect present-day frequencies, not common past histories. Furthermore, in spite of the similarities, differences among male populations are significantly greater than among the female. For instance, the mean FST distance between Algeria and other Maghreb countries for Y-chromosome [0.061] is nearly three times higher than for mtDNA [0.023], 5 times higher when based on distances between Algeria and Europe and nearly 8 times higher when involving Middle East populations. Gender specific demographic features were used to explain these differences [15]. There are also differences in male and female affinities between populations. Thus, Tunisia is the most related to Algeria at mtDNA level but W. Sahara-Mauritania is the closest when using Y-chromosome. Moreover, France is the most distant population from Algeria based on mtDNA but Iberia is the furthest when based on Y-chromosome. Finally, in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the less related population when comparing maternal profiles, but from the paternal view, the most distant area is the Caucasus. There are also coincidences; Italy is the closest European country to Algeria using both uniparental markers. Again, similarities and differences are apparent between both uniparental markers when differentiated genetic components of Maghreb, Near East, Europe, and west and east sub-Saharan Africa are taking into account. For the sub-Saharan East African component, Arabia and Egypt harbor the highest frequencies for both Y-chromosome and mtDNA. However, in the Maghreb, W. Sahara-Mauritania accumulates the maximum male eastern contribution and Tunisia the female one. Comparing the sub-Saharan West African component, the correspondence between male and female inputs is perfect; Iberia and Italy show the highest influences in Europe, W. Sahara-Mauritania and Libya in North Africa and the Levant and Arabia in the Middle East. For the European component, Iberia, France and Italy have the greatest representation in both uniparental markers, and for the Middle East it is the Caucasus. Nevertheless, in the Maghreb, the European mtDNA contribution in Morocco is the largest whereas Y-chromosome influence peaks in Algeria. Finally, the Middle East component shows congruent values for both markers, the Balkans is the region with the greatest Middle East component in Europe; Egypt has the greatest in North Africa and Iran in the Middle East. A big study concerning Y-chromosome in Iran has been published after this analysis was carried out [81], however haplogroup frequencies for both sets of Iranian samples are rather similar, and we do not think its inclusion would modify largely our conclusions.
Recently, it has been reported that the sub-Saharan African gene flow to Tunisia shows a strong sex bias, involving a significantly larger female contribution [p<0.0001] [15]. The same tendency holds for all North African populations except Libya, which could be attributed to insufficient sampling [19]. However, significance levels are more moderate in all instances; for example, probability values in Algeria [0.025] or in W. Sahara-Mauritania [0.043] are two times lower than for Tunisia. The same sex bias is found in the Middle East, reaching significance in Arabia [p = 0.0005] and in the Caucasus [p = 0.045]. In Europe, only Italy shows significant differences [p<0.0001] for the gender contribution of sub-Saharan Africans but contrarily, in this case, the male input [3.91%] is highest than the female one [1.35%]. On the basis of uniparental markers [82]–[84] and massive genomic analysis [77], [85], the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. The case of Italy could be better explained, at least partially, by more ancient sub-Saharan African inputs into Europe than are thought by several authors to have occurred [83], [84], [86]. However, see Capelli et al. [87] for another point of view. All these uniparental peculiarities could be explained supposing: 1, the existence of several dispersion foci at different times in western Asia, independently influencing the African and European Mediterranean areas; 2, the spread of independent autochthonous lineages in both areas, and 3, bidirectional maritime contacts between areas with minor gene flow. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
_^_
No comment? No analysis? No nothing?
Look. We know how to read the report so why big ass hunk quotes not even hi-lited for points of particular interest?
Blind mindless quote mining. Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
We discussed Bekada already. no data to support his claim. Anything new guys? Also posted here and ESR way back...
J1 is either East African or Yemen NOT European. "IF" it came from Yemen it was >30,000ya!!!
IIRC Bekeda found about 2% R-M69 and 2% Cameroonian R-V88.
He made the rediculous assumption that the 2% R-M269 accompanied the 25% MtDNA H that he saw in Algerian Berbers. Stupid assumption!! He is grasping at straws.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Come on man! Anything new?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
J1 is either East African or Yemen NOT European. "IF" it came from Yemen it was >30,000ya!!!
J1 originates in neither East Africa or Yemen, where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up? show me the source, numbers
The Caucus averages over 80% The highest frequencies of J are found in the Caucus, Dagestan Russia,
The highest diversity of J1 is in the Zagros/Taurus mountain region (Iran/Iraq) Ciaroni 2010
xyyman stop the nonsense, you are wrong on both frequency and diversity. Why are we going over this again ?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ha! Ha! you are grasping.
Here is smething more interesting. If you are really interested in nailing this done.
From my girl Gonzalez et al. Remember that paper where 50% of the aDNA found in Iberia was African mtDNA L. well here is more.
Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome structure at the mediterranean and atlantic façades of the iberian peninsula - Dec2013
South differentiation and larger diversities in the South. In general, mitochondrial DNA haplogroups had mainly Paleolithic and Mesolithic coalescences in Europe, although some of them, ruling out drift effects, seem to have younger implantation in Central Europe and the Atlantic areas than in the Mediterranean (I, J, J2a, T1, and W) while others as N1 and X could have reached the Iberian Peninsula at the Neolithic transition. On the other hand, younger coalescence ages are being proposed for the arriving or spread of the bulk of Y-chromosome lineages in Europe.
CONCLUSIONS:
The major haplotypic affinities found for all the Iberian Peninsula regions were always with North Africa and the Atlantic Islands. over Central Europe. These results draw an Atlantic network that clearly resembles those of the Megalithic Copper and Bronze cultures at this part of Europe.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
The source of the female European gene pool has been solved. The real puzzle is the male gene pool.
What was/is the demographic scenario for the white male?
Berbers are primarily pure Africans
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
All I can say is that it does not take long for an person to change from white to black or black to white.
Look at the person who is(If they actually produce it) playing the Hyroglyph Pharoah in that series.
1 parent Black and other White:
genocide does not always play a part in a shift in color.
Edit: I could be wrong about his ethnicity, Only thing they say is that his Father is South African(could be Black, White, Euro, or "colored")
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Anyone has the original study??
Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European
A 7,000-year-old man whose bones were left behind in a Spanish cave had the dark skin of an African, but the blue eyes of a Scandinavian. He was a hunter-gatherer who ate a low-starch diet and couldn't digest milk well — which meshes with the lifestyle that predated the rise of agriculture. But his immune system was already starting to adapt to a new lifestyle.
The illustration is funny . For those who missed it. Note DERIVED PIGMENTATION!!!! ie Black. Now the question is what proof do they have that he had blue eyes?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^^^
Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European
quote: Ancient genomic sequences have started to reveal the origin and the demographic impact of farmers from the Neolithic period spreading into Europe1, 2, 3. The adoption of farming, stock breeding and sedentary societies during the Neolithic may have resulted in adaptive changes in genes associated with immunity and diet4. However, the limited data available from earlier hunter-gatherers preclude an understanding of the selective processes associated with this crucial transition to agriculture in recent human evolution. Here we sequence an approximately 7,000-year-old Mesolithic skeleton discovered at the La Braña-Arintero site in León, Spain, to retrieve a complete pre-agricultural European human genome. Analysis of this genome in the context of other ancient samples suggests the existence of a common ancient genomic signature across western and central Eurasia from the Upper Paleolithic to the Mesolithic. The La Braña individual carries ancestral alleles in several skin pigmentation genes, suggesting that the light skin of modern Europeans was not yet ubiquitous in Mesolithic times. Moreover, we provide evidence that a significant number of derived, putatively adaptive variants associated with pathogen resistance in modern Europeans were already present in this hunter-gatherer.
quote: Extended Data Figure 1: Alignment and coverage statistics of the La Braña 1 genome.
a, Alignment summary of the La Braña 1 sequence data to hg19 assembly. b, Coverage statistics per chromosome. The percentage of the chromosome covered by at least one read is shown, as well as the mean read depth of all positions and positions covered by at least one read. c, Percentage of the genome covered at different minimum read depths.
quote:
Extended Data Figure 2: Damage pattern of La Braña 1 sequenced reads.
a, b, Frequencies of C to T (red) and G to A (blue) misincorporations at the 5′ end (left) and 3′ end (right) are shown for the nuclear DNA (nuDNA) (a) and mtDNA (b). c, d, Fragment length distribution of reads mapping to the nuclear genome (c) and mtDNA genome (d). Coefficients of determination (R2) for an exponential decline are provided for the four different data sets. The exponential coefficients for the four data sets correspond to the damage fraction (λ); e is the base of the natural logarithm.
quote: Extended Data Figure 3: Genetic affinities of the La Braña 1 genome.
a, PCA of the La Braña 1 SNP data and the 1000 Genomes Project European individuals. b, PCA of La Braña 1 versus world-wide data genotyped with the Illumina Omni 2.5M array. Continental terms make reference to each Omni population grouping as follows: Africans, Yoruba and Luyha; Asians, Chinese (Beijing, Denver, South, Dai), Japanese and Vietnamese; Europeans, Iberians, Tuscans, British, Finns and CEU; and Indian Gujarati from Texas. c, Each panel shows PC1 and PC2 based on the PCA of one of the ancient samples with the merged POPRES+FINHM sample, before Procrustes transformation. The ancient samples include the La Braña 1 sample and four Neolithic samples from refs 1 and 3.
quote: Extended Data Figure 4: Allele-sharing analysis.
Each panel shows the allele-sharing of a particular Neolithic sample from refs 1 and 3 with La Braña 1 sample. The sample IDs are presented in the upper left of each panel (Ajv52, Ajv70, Ire8, Gok4 and Ötzi). In the upper right of each panel, the Pearson’s correlation coefficient is given with the associated P value.
quote: Extended Data Figure 5: Pairwise outgroup f3 statistics.
a, Sardinian versus Karitiana. b, Sardinian versus Han. c, La Braña 1 versus Mal’ta. d, Sardinian versus Mal’ta. e, La Braña 1 versus Karitiana. The solid line represents y = x.
quote:Extended Data Figure 6: Analysis of heterozygosity.
a, Heterozygosity distributions of La Braña 1 and modern individuals with similar coverage from the 1000 Genomes Project (using 1-Mb windows with 200 kb overlap). CEU, northern- and western-European ancestry. CHB, Han Chinese; FIN, Finns; GBR, Great Britain; IBS, Iberians; JPT, Japanese; LWK, Luhya; TSI, Tuscans; YRI, Yorubans. b, Heterozygosity values in 1-Mb windows (with 200 kb overlap) across each chromosome.
quote: Extended Data Figure 7: Amylase copy-number analysis.
a, Size distribution of diploid control regions. b, AMY1 gene copy number in La Braña 1. CN, copy number; DGV, Database of Genomic Variation. c, La Braña 1 AMY1 gene copy number in the context of low- and high-starch diet populations. d, Classification of low- and high-starch diet individuals based on AMY1 copy number. Using data from ref. 18, individuals were classified as in low-starch (less or equal than) or high-starch (higher than) categories and the fraction of correct predictions was calculated. In addition, we calculated the random expectation and 95% limit of low-starch-diet individuals classified correctly at each threshold value.
quote: Extended Data Figure 8: Neighbouring variants for three diagnostic SNPs related to immunity.
a, rs2745098 (PTX4 gene). b, rs11755393 (UHRF1BP1 gene). c, rs10421769 (GPATCH1 gene). For PTX4, UHRF1BP1 and GPATCH1, La Braña 1 displays the derived allele and the European-specific haplotype, indicating that the positive-selection event was already present in the Mesolithic. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.
quote: Extended Data Figure 9: Metagenomic analysis of the non-human reads.
a, Domain attribution of the reads that did not map to hg19. b, Proportion of different Bacteria groups. c, Proportion of different types of Proteobacteria. d, Microbial attributes of the microbes present in the La Braña 1 sample.
Iñigo Olalde, Morten E. Allentoft, Federico Sánchez-Quinto, Gabriel Santpere, Charleston W. K. Chiang, Michael DeGiorgio, Javier Prado-Martinez, Juan Antonio Rodríguez, Simon Rasmussen, Javier Quilez, Oscar Ramírez, Urko M. Marigorta, Marcos Fernández-Callejo, María Encina Prada, Julio Manuel Vidal Encinas, Rasmus Nielsen, Mihai G. Netea, John Novembre, Richard A. Sturm, Pardis Sabeti, Tomàs Marquès-Bonet, Arcadi Navarro, Eske Willerslev & Carles Lalueza-Fox
AffiliationsContributionsCorresponding authors
Nature (2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960
Received 22 October 2013 Accepted 17 December 2013 Published online 26 January 2014
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Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Anyone has the original study??
Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European
A 7,000-year-old man whose bones were left behind in a Spanish cave had the dark skin of an African, but the blue eyes of a Scandinavian. He was a hunter-gatherer who ate a low-starch diet and couldn't digest milk well — which meshes with the lifestyle that predated the rise of agriculture. But his immune system was already starting to adapt to a new lifestyle.
The illustration is funny . For those who missed it. Note DERIVED PIGMENTATION!!!! ie Black. Now the question is what proof do they have that he had blue eyes?
quote:This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
Prehistoric Iberia 2000, pp 125-162
Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory
He has interetsing features
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He has interetsing features
Yeah, indeed, a bit cartoonish.
quote: Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
5000bc the dominant skin tone in Southern Europe was black!!!! Don't you get it? They haven't revealed the yDNA in the abstract. There was no mention of the genetic profile which makes them concluded he had blue eyes. Was it Herc 2 or some other gene. So what makes anyone think Berbers or AEian was anything but black Africans. Ha! Ha! Ha!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Remember Otzi was first said to have blue eyes then that was changed to brown/black eyes. And did NOT have the infamous slc45 white gene Lol!
Lying delusional Europeans!!!!
It is simple logic and common sense Iberia, Greece and Rome is next door to Africa what do they expect. Lol!
I don't believe the blue eye story , need to read the original paper and supplementals.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As I said. The real intrigue is unravelling R-M269- s116
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember Otzi was first said to have blue eyes then that was changed to brown/black eyes. And did NOT have the infamous slc45 white gene Lol!
Lying delusional Europeans!!!!
It is simple logic and common sense Iberia, Greece and Rome is next door to Africa what do they expect. Lol!
I don't believe the blue eye story , need to read the original paper and supplementals.
quote: Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote: People with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor, according to new research.
A team of scientists has tracked down a genetic mutation that leads to blue eyes. The mutation occurred between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, so before then, there were no blue eyes.
"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine at the University of Copenhagen.
The mutation affected the so-called OCA2 gene, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives color to our hair, eyes and skin.
"A genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a 'switch,' which literally 'turned off' the ability to produce brown eyes," Eiberg said.
The genetic switch is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 and rather than completely turning off the gene, the switch limits its action, which reduces the production of melanin in the iris. In effect, the turned-down switch diluted brown eyes to blue.
If the OCA2 gene had been completely shut down, our hair, eyes and skin would be melanin-less, a condition known as albinism.
"It's exactly what I sort of expected to see from what we know about selection around this area," said John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, referring to the study results regarding the OCA2 gene. Hawks was not involved in the current study.
Baby blues
Eiberg and his team examined DNA from mitochondria, the cells' energy-making structures, of blue-eyed individuals in countries including Jordan, Denmark and Turkey. This genetic material comes from females, so it can trace maternal lineages.
They specifically looked at sequences of DNA on the OCA2 gene and the genetic mutation associated with turning down melanin production.
Over the course of several generations, segments of ancestral DNA get shuffled so that individuals have varying sequences. Some of these segments, however, that haven't been reshuffled are called haplotypes. If a group of individuals shares long haplotypes, that means the sequence arose relatively recently in our human ancestors. The DNA sequence didn't have enough time to get mixed up.
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"What they were able to show is that the people who have blue eyes in Denmark, as far as Jordan, these people all have this same haplotype, they all have exactly the same gene changes that are all linked to this one mutation that makes eyes blue," Hawks said in a telephone interview.
Melanin switch
The mutation is what regulates the OCA2 switch for melanin production. And depending on the amount of melanin in the iris, a person can end up with eye color ranging from brown to green. Brown-eyed individuals have considerable individual variation in the area of their DNA that controls melanin production. But they found that blue-eyed individuals only have a small degree of variation in the amount of melanin in their eyes.
"Out of 800 persons we have only found one person which didn't fit — but his eye color was blue with a single brown spot," Eiberg told LiveScience, referring to the finding that blue-eyed individuals all had the same sequence of DNA linked with melanin production.
"From this we can conclude that all blue-eyed individuals are linked to the same ancestor," Eiberg said. "They have all inherited the same switch at exactly the same spot in their DNA." Eiberg and his colleagues detailed their study in the Jan. 3 online edition of the journal Human Genetics.
That genetic switch somehow spread throughout Europe and now other parts of the world.
"The question really is, 'Why did we go from having nobody on Earth with blue eyes 10,000 years ago to having 20 or 40 percent of Europeans having blue eyes now?" Hawks said. "This gene does something good for people. It makes them have more kids."
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember Otzi was first said to have blue eyes then that was changed to brown/black eyes. And did NOT have the infamous slc45 white gene Lol!
Lying delusional Europeans!!!!
It is simple logic and common sense Iberia, Greece and Rome is next door to Africa what do they expect. Lol!
I don't believe the blue eye story , need to read the original paper and supplementals.
what about the part where his DNA is closest to modern Sardinians?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That's all you got to say Lioness. History is being rewritten right in front of you. Did you read the other recent one by Quinto et al? Damn! Achille and Torronni days are numbered. Their lies are being exposed. Fortunately there are Europeans that have the courage to expose the lies. There was complete population replacement starting in the Bronze Age. Mike, Marc? Obviously mtDNA H is African but what about R-M269
aDNA is going to shatter the lies!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He has interetsing features
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
you are ranting. If Otzi man is closest in DNA to modern Sardinians then Otzi man is closest Sardinians. So take a look at some modern Sardinians
and after 7000 years they might be brown but not as dark as Otzi man and Otzi man isn't even that dark, look at him and this is after probably some darkening due to the after death state of the skin.
Look, you don't even have to consider the exact skin tone. Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians. So if you want to say modern Sardinians are primarily African fine, the fact remains Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians
So what's the problem? You are then saying you think modern Sardinians are African. This is the inevitable you were talking about?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Yes. I am ranting, I am enjoying the moment.
Quote; he carried the ancestral allele in SEVERAL pigmentation genes. SEVERAL ancestral. The man was pitch black. Lol! I need proof he had blue eyes.
Don't you get it. There is no Race. Just waves upon waves of Africans leaving Africa and adapting. No admixture needed.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
you are ranting. If Otzi man is closest in DNA to modern Sardinians then Otzi man is closest Sardinians. So take a look at some modern Sardinians
and after 7000 years they might be brown but not as dark as Otzi man and Otzi man isn't even that dark, look at him and this is after probably some darkening due to the after death state of the skin.
Look, you don't even have to consider the exact skin tone. Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians. So if you want to say modern Sardinians are primarily African fine, the fact remains Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians
So what's the problem? You are then saying you think modern Sardinians are African. This is the inevitable you were talking about?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
There is no need to have genetic proof of his skin tone. You can see it in the damn picture, preserved in ice !! If anything there is still some decay and the skin is darker to some degree than it was when he was alive, probably minimally darker. So look at him he's yellowish brown. What's the problem? This is a very rare specimen of somebody frozen in ice
What is hypothetical? His DNA is closest to modern Sardinians. That's not hypothetical. So what's the problem???
So you think modern Sardinians are primarily African, ok fine, no "what ifs" necessary
So what's the problem?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
What is hypothetical? His DNA is closest to modern Sardinians. That's not hypothetical. So what's the problem???
So you think modern Sardinians are primarily African, ok fine, no "what ifs" necessary
So what's the problem?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I need to dumb it down. It is very simple. It is the same scenario that played out in the "Pillars of Hercules" study. Saharawi carry ALL the HV mtDNA halplotypes found on mainland Europe PLUS more. Also, all the haplotypes found in Europe are found in the Saharawi's. European mtDNA HV is a sub-set of Saharawis. That indicate that the Saharawis are the ORIGINAL population. It is the same scenario amongst Sardinians, North Africans and mainland Europeans. Sardinians and North African share mtDNA haplotypes UNIQUE to them both and NOT mainland Europeans. However the haplotype of mainland Europeans are also found in Sardinia and North Africa. This is an indication of the direction of migration. ie point of origin. GET IT?! Henn et al autosomal SNP study concluded the same thing. migration from North Africa TOWARDS Europe and NOT the reverse.
Now the interesting thing will be who will break the fold. You know. Call out Achilli and Torroni for their fughked up work they did back in the late 90s- early 2000's. Also interesting is how R-M269-S116 comes into play? That male genetic marker hasn't been found up to the bronze age ie about 1000Bc. That is the perplexing thing.
@Ultimate, are you reading this?
BTW - I have traveled many times to Europe and the Caribbean but never to Africa. I can’t' tell you what a Berber, Sardinian or Chinaman looks like. I am ONLY going by what is disclosed in the research papers that I read.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@TP. Clear your inbox. When you people email. Clear your inbox. Otherwise I won't respond. You know staying on top of things.
That is why I haven't responded Henu.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am speaking about the aDNA Nuragic study. Modern Sardinians?. Shrug.....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
What is hypothetical? His DNA is closest to modern Sardinians. That's not hypothetical. So what's the problem???
So you think modern Sardinians are primarily African, ok fine, no "what ifs" necessary
So what's the problem?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I am speaking about the aDNA Nuragic study. Modern Sardinians?. Shrug.....
I dod you have any staements to make or just ramble details like you are exposing some conspiracy? You think berbers and Southern European are Africas, ok thats the xyyamn position, cofirm and we'll move on
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
you are ranting. If Otzi man is closest in DNA to modern Sardinians then Otzi man is closest Sardinians. So take a look at some modern Sardinians
and after 7000 years they might be brown but not as dark as Otzi man and Otzi man isn't even that dark, look at him and this is after probably some darkening due to the after death state of the skin.
Look, you don't even have to consider the exact skin tone. Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians. So if you want to say modern Sardinians are primarily African fine, the fact remains Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians
So what's the problem? You are then saying you think modern Sardinians are African. This is the inevitable you were talking about?
update, his outer skin is missing here, I keep forgeting that. It's not mentioned often. Looking at these Otzi photos is irrelevant. Neverthelss their DNA is considered to be most similar to modern Sardinians. and in 7000 years there could be some changes in appearance to some degree perhaps
You think that he's really bantu or Khosia? Ok go into the DNA report and see if you can prove that
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
He! Ha! Ha! Straw man .....
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: He! Ha! Ha! Straw man .....
You go by DNA right?
Get out the DNA on modern Sardinians. They're actually black genetically right?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Stone-Age Hunter Had Blue Eyes And Dark, African Skin
quote:
A stone-age hunter’s wisdom tooth has revealed that he had an unusual mix of racial traits – dark, African skin, curly brown hair and blue eyes.
Preliminary DNA analysis of the exceedingly well-preserved 7,000-year-old skeleton, dubbed Brana-1, has overturned ideas about the descent of modern Europeans.
Although the hunter’s closest modern-day relatives live in Sweden and Finland, the genes for his skin colour are African.
Previously, scientists thought that fair skin evolved as people moved to northern latitudes, allowing them to absorb more sunlight for the production of vitamin D.
But Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (IBE) in Barcelona thinks it was the later shift to agriculture that was decisive. (Link to research–in Spanish.)
Pre-farming humans would have gotten most of their vitamin D from eating meat, fish and eggs, while early agriculturalists would have relied more on sunlight.
“It seems possible that latitude is not the key factor in skin depigmentation, but diet,” said Dr Lalueza-Fox, the lead author of a paper on the discovery in Nature. “This guy had to be darker than any modern European, but we don’t know how dark.”
The mutation for blue eyes, a change in the HERC2 gene, is thought to have first appeared around the Black Sea 10,000 years ago and then gradually moved west. Because the gene is recessive, blue-eyed people must have two copies, one from each parent. Remains of the hunter and another human were discovered by cavers in Brana-Arintero, a deep, complex cavern in the Cantabrian Mountains near Leon, Spain, in 2006. The constant cool temperature in the cave, 1,500 metres above sea level, protected the remains from bacteria.
Excavated by Julio Manuel Vidal Encinas, an archaeologist with the Council of Castilla y Leon, they were carbon dated to the Mesolithic era, which in Northwest Europe lasted from 10,000 to 5,000 years ago. Among artifacts found with them were perforated teeth of red deer that decorated their clothing like beads.
Brana-1, the better preserved of the two sets of remains, was 1.7 metres tall and between 30- and 35-years-old when he died. “Before we started this work, I had some ideas of what we were going to find,” Dr Lalueza-Fox said. “Most of those ideas turned out to be completely wrong.”
Among them was his immune system. Previously, scientists thought that farming led to genetic changes to the immune system that helped people deal with infections caught from livestock, including polio and tuberculosis. But Brana-1 already had these changes, possibly because the diseases, and the genetic defences against them, spread faster than the technology.
“It appears that the first line of defense against pathogens was already there,” says Wolfgang Haak, an ancient DNA researcher at the University of Adelaide in Australia. On the other hand, genes for processing lactose, the main sugar in milk, or starch, both of which are more common in agricultural diets, were in “ancestral forms”.
Earlier results from the find, based on an analysis of mitochondrial DNA, showed that Brana-1 shared a common ancestor with the 24,000-year-old remains of a Mal’ta child who lived at Lake Baikal in Siberia. Both are part of the Paleolithic Venus culture, which is identified by small, rounded female figurines. The researchers hope to extract and analyse DNA from Brana-2 next.
Both Speke's Hamitic Hypothesis and Stuhlmann's Caucasian African's are still powerful forces though not quoted from nor alluded to in geneticists' studies and reports.
Has Bekada, an Algerian, been influenced by Amazigh activist renewals of Hamiticism?
Just as in Hamiticism/Caucasian Africa, emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns) as separate and unrelated to the bulk of Africa(ns)
Subliminally, in the background, Bekada proposes E-M215 clade as a back migration
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages.
Of course E-M81 and E-M78 in Bekada's report is E Afr derived although Hamiticism's twin Caucas (ian/oid) E Afr excuses the authors claiming them for Eurasia.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
This is what informs academia and remains in the background behind academicians minds that arrow from the Great Lakes northward to Nile AP NA and Europe is where similar arrows in geneticists' reports trace their pedigree
I was exposed to this in the 70s by Dr. YY benJochannan particularly as in the map above
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Both Speke's Hamitic Hypothesis and Stuhlmann's Caucasian African's as propulgated by later Africanists are still powerful forces though not quoted from nor alluded to in geneticists' studies and reports.
Thing is most of the geneticists reports as evinced in Bekada (2013) do support Hamiticism/Caucasian Africa though never outright publishing it.
Remember Hamiticism is inseparably linked to NE and E Africa as AMH Caucas(ian/oid) and Jeffreys was clear that modern man
quote:is our stock, not Negro ... us, not Negro ... our group, not that of the Negro ... Thus in Africa, from the Old Stone Age to modern times, Modern Man is the tool maker. Nowhere is the Negro, ..., associated with these stone age cultures.
as upheld and promoted by this Africanist:
quote: from Swenet
All the Upper Paleolithic peoples of Kenya were of Caucasoid or proto-Hamitic stock; they are represented by the Gamble's Cave and Naivasha skeletons, as well as the skeleton from Olduvai in northern Tanganyika. They were tall and dolichocephalic, with long face and narrow nose (the 'Elmenteitan type'); the other is brachycephalic, with a shorter face but also with a narrow nose. These two types are represented by Elmenteita A and F1 (Fig. 5 (2 and 3)) from Bromhead's site. The same types persist into the Neolithic, but now a third variation appears in the ultra-dolichocephalic skulls from Willey's kopje (Fig. 5 (4)); these differ from the Elmenteitan type by having a shorter face, a more prominent nose, and a different kind of mandible.
-- Sonia Cole, 1954
quote: Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on 05 November, 2012 11:39 PM : Africans had these so called caucasoid traits before europeans who are the youngest set of peoples.
That is what Cole's, Wiedner's, et al.'s "Caucasian" looked like.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:The human skeletons discovered by Leakey near Elmenteita (Kenya) in the grotto called Gamble's Cave II, and which probably belonged to the same human type as the Olduvai man (northern Tanzania) of the Capsian, have caused much ink to flow. "It is certain that these are not true Negroes, in the usual sense of the word. These are men comparable to the Nilotics in the Great Lakes region, or else comparable to the lighter-skinned populations of those territories. A skeleton recently found at Naivasha (Kenya) obviously belongs to the same type."
From these discoveries, prehistorians, historians, and ethnologists draw conclusions of varying importance concerning the early peopling of Black Africa. In the Olduvai man, Cornevin sees the ancestor of the Nilotic, of the Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer, and Masai. He makes him a Caucasoid. His existence, Cornevin contends, "proves that it is useless to make the East African, improperly called Nilo-Hamitic, come from India or Arabia." Finally, referring to the Naivasha man just mentioned, on the next page he writes that archeological research reveals affinities with the Cro-Magnon race: "tall stature, low, wide face, broad forehead, rectangular sockets, thin nose, little prognathism."
There was no Cro-Magnon man in sub-Saharan Africa. At an interview that Professor Vallois was kind enough to grant me at the Paris Institute of Human Paleontology, this scientist was categorical about this. Only the Boskop man (Transvaal Province, South Africa) was, for a time, considered as a Cro-Magnoid having affinities with the Bushman. But this opinion was later abandoned by its partisans. Cornevin, unfortunately, continues to confuse Grimaldi man -- a "Negroid" with marked prognathism and broad nose -- with Cro-Magnon man, who is not at all prognathous but presents in hypertrophic fashion typical European traits: thin lips, prominent chin, narrow nose. There is reason to reexamine the documents.
The Negro has been there from the beginning; for millennia he was the only one in existence. Nevertheless, on the threshold of the historical epoch, the "scholar" turns his back on him, raises questions about his genesis, and even speculates "objectively" about his tardy appearance ...
Diop [Mercer] 1974 pp.268,273-4
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Xyyman
Why don't you give us something new? And try hard, real hard, to be on topic.
heeheehee
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Both Speke's Hamitic Hypothesis and Stuhlmann's Caucasian African's are still powerful forces though not quoted from nor alluded to in geneticists' studies and reports.
Has Bekada, an Algerian, been influenced by Amazigh activist renewals of Hamiticism?
Just as in Hamiticism/Caucasian Africa, emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns) as separate and unrelated to the bulk of Africa(ns)
Subliminally, in the background, Bekada proposes E-M215 clade as a back migration
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%). The unexpected presence of the European-derived Y-chromosome lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb could be the counterparts of the mtDNA H1, H3 and V subgroups, pointing to direct maritime contacts between the European and North African sides of the western Mediterranean.
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages.
Of course E-M81 and E-M78 in Bekada's report is E Afr derived although Hamiticism's twin Caucas (ian/oid) E Afr excuses the authors claiming them for Eurasia.
I keep reading the quote and find it confusing. It may not be saying what you think it says, but I'm still trying to figure it out. If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere There is nowhere in else in the paper where they say E-M81 and E-M78 are Eurasian so maybe that was not the intent in the abstract.
It has to correspond to their other remarks here>
______________________________________
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape Bekada et al 2013
Other lineages, E-M81 [26] and E- M78 [41], seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas.
The most influential haplogroups in the first component separation are: E-M81, E-V65 and R-V88 that pull the North African countries together,
and J-M172, R-M173, R-M17, R-M124 and R-L23 that pull West Asian countries in the opposite direction. In the second component, haplogroups R-L11, R-M529, R-U198, I-M223 and I-M26 are responsible for the spread of the European Mediterranean countries away from Egypt and Arabia, which in turn are pulled by J-M267, B-M60, E-V22 and E-M123.
Contrastingly, for the Y-chromosome North African autochthonous lineages E-V65 and E-M81, Algeria shows the lowest frequencies of all Maghreb countries [Supplementary Table S6]. However, E-M81 frequencies in Algeria [44.2%] are still significantly higher [p<0.0001] than in Egypt [11.9%].
Furthermore, in order to obtain more accurate comparisons, we extended these Y-chromosome fine resolution analyses of haplogroups E1b [M78] and R1b [M343] to published samples of Iberians and Moroccans [46], Saharawi and Mauritanians [47] and Tunisians [15]. This uniparental genetic information has been used to integrate Algeria into the overall North African genetic landscape. ____________________________________________
^^^ regardless we can look at the raw data>
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Bekada et al 2013
Table S6
MOR morroco TUN Tunisa IP Iberian Penninsula ALG Algeria SAM Sahara/Mauritania
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere
As if people have never referred to northern Africa as an extension of Eurasia before
quote:the lioness, Posts: 18778
^That post count. Something is funky here. Who are you working for? What is in it for you to allocate so much of your time to a site where most see you as a troll?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB]
quote:If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere
As if people have never referred to northern Africa as an extension of Eurasia before
enough semantics, look at the data
actually I'm not sure of the proper way to read that chart above. the top excel one> I'm not sure what the letters C,D, E, F etc represent
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If she looked at the actual table instead of that snippet the lioness would know what the column headings mean.
The lioness likes to talk loud while saying nothing.
There is no misprint or ambiguity from Bekada.
There is no way to arrive at her Eurasian percentages w/o including the North African data. The abstract is a resume and cannot willy nilly be divorced from the report. The abstract explains how NA adds up to the Eurasian figure for anyone capable of simple arithmetic.
After all the reason the Lioness posted Bekada in the first place was to flaunt her Eurasian percentages as a support for the absurdity that Berbers are primarily not African.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Asmahan Bekada, et al., 2013 Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Bekada's percentages as stated are only so because North Africa and subSaharan Africa are not one unit Africa vs Eurasia.
North Africa as a part of Eurasia is biased.
When I present Bekada's data North Africa and subSahara Africa will count as African since it takes them both to have a continent Africa.
My correction of the quoted statement: The Eurasian component in Algeria is 60% for mtDNA and 20% for Y-chromosome, without the North African genetic components mtDNA U6 & M1 and paternal E-M81 & E-V65.
Algerians are primarily not African? Not per Bekada's uniparental African raw data. Algerians are 60% African and 40% non-African.
.
And don't you forget it!
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB]
quote:If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere
As if people have never referred to northern Africa as an extension of Eurasia before
enough semantics, look at the data
actually I'm not sure of the proper way to read that chart above. the top excel one> I'm not sure what the letters C,D, E, F etc represent
Those letter in the columns accumulate the excel query db.
Btw, you need to try harder, Tukuler has his foot on your neck.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Bekada et al 2013
Table S6
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Those letter in the columns accumulate the excel query db.
Btw, you need to try harder, Tukuler has his foot on your neck. [/QB]
Wrong! they don't accumulate. They are separate populations. The above is a useful chart copy it, above with the proper headings on the top line
populations indicated
A) Haplogroup B) Marker
C) IP Iberian Penninsula D)FRC France E) ISS F) BAL G) SAM Sahara/Mauritania H) MOR Morocco I) ALG Algeria J) TUN Tunisia K) LIB Libya L) EGY Egypt M) CAU Caucus N) TUR Turkey O) LEQ Levant (Jodan Syria Palestine Lebanon Druze) P) IRN Iran ARP) Arabian Penninsula
Again Bekada et al:
" The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. "
Tukular's is disrespectful to women calling me bitch is uncalled for. However he's right on this Bekada quote (or was it Swenet who first pointed it out?) (who but the lioness could admit to error after unprovoked name calling - by defintiion trolling behavior?? )
OFFCIAL LIONESS RETRACTION-specifically about that Bekada quote in the abstract
Algerian Y is not 90%. I don't see the other researchers going as far to catagorize M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian. They should have kept their mouth shut in the abstract because the rest of the paper seems not to reiterate that thought but maybe I need to read it again
^^^ Most other articles call this just North African not Eurasian
However:
J1 21.79 = Eurasian
_______________________
Now on to mtDNA
They said in the paper Mozabites are not as representative of the broader Algerian popualtion as in the city Oran, NW
H/HV 30.83
HV0/HV0/V 7.50
M1 7.08 (Coudray in the below chart calls M1 North African)
_______________________________
This task on both the Y DNA and mtDNA in the Bekada at top includes a lot more haplogroups with smaller frequencies that add up and trying to figure out what to call African and what to call Eurasian
For reference, see bottom of this chart
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
Coudray
^^^ for the sake of argument one could apply Eurasian vs. African indication as used here to the Bekada and then crunch the numbers, you could say African = NA+SSA
But also realize SSA contribution might be regarded as recent as some, not all, of the Eurasian contibution
Here in the Coudray he's got the Mozabites 54% Eurasian
I can't take Tukular's word for it there has to be some listing and adding.
In looking at this stuff, the Algerians are looking sort of half and half-ish
Who really knows what Hgs are African an which are not and how it's really determined
Something interesting I notice about Hap U is that above Coudray calls U Eurasian but U6 North African they list Mozabites about 13% U(not U6 U) and 28% U6
Bekada:
U6 27.06 U3b1a 10.79
II had always assumed that when Coudray listed "U" and not specifying the marker it was U6. Bekada lists U3
mtDNA haplogroup U3 is present throughout Europe and Western Asia but is found at the highest frequencies in countries surrounding the Black Sea, especially in Bulgaria and the Caucusas. U3 is very rare in Western Europe (probably less than 0.5%) but is found at increasingly high levels to the east, especially in the Danube River basin and along the southeastern Mediterranean Sea. U3 is also found at very high frequencies among some Roma populations and in some parts of the Near East (e.g. Jordan and Syria). U3 appears to be a fairly ancient haplogroup (probably at least 35,000 to 45,000 years old)
However Achilli/ Torroni in the below Saami/berber study did list beber U5, notably Siwa
Am J Hum Genet. 2005 May;76(5):883-6. Epub 2005 Mar 24
_________________________
wiki
Haplogroup U
Haplogroup U descends from a woman in the Haplogroup R (mtDNA) branch of the phylogenetic tree, who lived around 55,000 years ago.
Haplogroup U is found in 15% of Indian caste and 8% of Indian tribal populations. U is found in approximately 11% of native Europeans and is held as the oldest maternal haplogroup found in that region. U6 is thought to have entered North Africa around 30,000 years ago from the Near-East. In spite of the highest diversity of Iberian U6, Maca-Meyer argues for an Near East origin of this clade based on the highest diversity of subclade U6a in that region,[27] where it would have arrived from West Asia. She estimates the age of U6 between 25,000 and 66,000 years BP. However U6 has its highest frequencies in North Africa and seems to be a specific haplogroup of that region.
Achilli/ Torroni
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
^^^ U5
U6 is thought to have entered North Africa around 30,000 years ago from the Near-East. In spite of the highest diversity of Iberian U6, Maca-Meyer argues for an Near East origin of this clade based on the highest diversity of subclade U6a in that region,[27] where it would have arrived from West Asia. She estimates the age of U6 between 25,000 and 66,000 years BP.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Pointless pic spam as if all Mzabi nuances are captured
All looks are not alike Genes tell all in spite
Berbers are primarily not African? Yeah, sure, only in your dreams.
BTW the Lioness, Being a bitch's got nothing to do with being a female (not sure u r). It's about the object's attitude and the name callers "respect" 4 u (zilch) nor is it a Black thang
1970's Elton John - "the bitch is back" David Bowie - "I'm a rock n rollin bitch for you"
2010's innumerable Rap a/o Hip Hoppers
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Bekada et al 2013 Table S6
The above is a useful chart copy it, above with the proper headings on the top line
Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Just downloaded and skimmed through Kefi's paper. This is live data. No? aDNA of Taforalt Morocco 10000bc have them at mtDNA H. But earliest known aDNA of H in Iberia is 3000bc. Seems like H is yet again older in Africa. Yet Iberia is, what, 10miles off of Morocco? Get the picture?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yes, Frigi 2010 officially opened the door to academia questioning H1 & H3 possible African origins.
Frigi however did assert L3*, Kefi found but both ignored and denied as foundational to the Maurusian, was right there from its very start.
quote: The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago.
Will check out the link on Frigi. But you do know that the geneticists are moving to North West Africa as the geographic inception of AMH? Which conflicts with the anthropological evidence. This is because of the discovery of A1c? iirc in the Sahel region and A00 in Afram and west Africa. Tishkoff speculated in the Angola region, pigmentation data by Norton speculated also Sahel region.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^^^
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: U6 is thought to have entered North Africa around 30,000 years ago from the Near-East. In spite of the highest diversity of Iberian U6, Maca-Meyer argues for an Near East origin of this clade based on the highest diversity of subclade U6a in that region,[27] where it would have arrived from West Asia. She estimates the age of U6 between 25,000 and 66,000 years BP.
So when are you going to show us the Paleolithic and Epipaleolithic Eurasian industry, distribution and remains in Africa?
quote: Regular Middle Paleolithic inventories as well as Middle Paleolithic inventories of Aterian type have a long chronology in Morocco going back to MIS 6 and are interstratified in some sites. Their potential for detecting chrono-cultural patterns is low. The transition from the Middle to Upper Paleolithic, here termed Early Upper Paleolithic—at between 30 to 20 ka—remains a most enigmatic era. Scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental reconsidering of human presence. By integrating environmental data in the reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Paleolithic deposits, possibly indicative of a very low presence of humans in Morocco. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly with the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna, and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas again shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Paleolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipaleolithic occupation. Therefore, the late glacial cultural sequence of Morocco is a good test case for analyzing the interrelationship of culture and climate change.
--Late Pleistocene Human Occupation of Northwest Africa: A Crosscheck of Chronology and Climate Change in Morocco Jörg Linstädter, Prehistoric Archaeology, Cologne University, GERMANY Josef Eiwanger, KAAK, German Archaeological Institute, GERMANY Abdessalam Mikdad, INSAP, MOROCCO Gerd-Christian Weniger, Neanderthal Museum, GERMANY
quote: North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia.
--On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just downloaded and skimmed through Kefi's paper. This is live data. No? aDNA of Taforalt Morocco 10000bc have them at mtDNA H. But earliest known aDNA of H in Iberia is 3000bc. Seems like H is yet again older in Africa. Yet Iberia is, what, 10miles off of Morocco? Get the picture?
Call it irony,
quote:However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al.
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
quote:This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
Prehistoric Iberia 2000, pp 125-162
Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool. [/QB]
I did download it you fucking piece of shit scumbag. I made a scanned version, web host version which makes it easier for people to upload onto the site. **** your mother and your whole family
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So when are you going to show us the Paleolithic and Epipaleolithic Eurasian industry, distribution and remains in Africa?
I'll do it now
Paleolithic Eurasians with cold adapted limb ratio and Eurasian haplogroups
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If you post those pics again I'll puke. Pics don't prove **** w/o authoritative text. I mean like where's the raw data and statistics, bitch?
Did you ever go to any level of schooling? Pics aren't substitutes for a statistical comparison of the two subject population groups' physicality.
Give us a set of raw data statistics showing Taforalt Maurusians match Magdalene and/or Azilian skeletons and skulls. Nothing else'll do.
1- Paleolithic Eurasians (Magdalenian Europe/Azilian Pyrenees) __ physical remains (crania and skeletons) are a match for 2- North Africa as in Maurusian Taforalt.
You still haven't done it yet. You're not going to try to do it now. You can't ever do it, no way, no how, never. Why? You lack the skills to compile such a table.
Your grade, an F minus. Fail, the Lioness, a big fail for you.
Yet you keep on repeating your non-evidence as if it speaks volumes though you need to cease and retreat to some place of retraction for those who blurt out without at first thinking it out.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool.
I did download it you fucking piece of shit scumbag. I made a scanned version, web host version which makes it easier for people to upload onto the site. **** your mother and your whole family
U a 1 horney bitch in heat aintcha
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] If you post those pics again I'll puke. Pics don't prove **** w/o authoritative text. I mean like where's the raw data and statistics, a big fail for you.
Troll keeps asking to see it over and over again
and again here's an authoritative chart for your thick dumb ass
^^^^ This is Trenton Holliday and it's supported by numerical data
This shows Iberomaurusian Afalou as clustering with Alaskans
That means cold adapted limb ratios for you buffoons. And the Taforalt specimens have even lower limb ratios than afalou Iberomaurusian.
This is NON -AFRICAN
that fits the thread theme.
You quibble desperately over the L in one sample.
That doesn't change the fact that Taforalt had high percentages of H, U ( not U6) JT and V.
For the buffoons this also indicates Eurasian mtDNA in North Africa 10-12000 years ago, right ???
You cant deal with facts, if You include some L it doesn't matter.
nether of you have been able to refute this.
Troll isn't even aware that Iberomaurusian and Capsians, Gobero have different morphologies.
And looking at the tawny Khosians (the ones with less bantu admixture) at silar distance from the equator it would be reasonble to expect Maghrebians to be not so dark.
Troll Patrol puts up endless pictures of children in Africa, nobody says anything.
I put up pictures of Mozabites, some even more African looking than Doc Scientia had put up.
And maybe the pictures I put up do represent primarily African somewhere past 50%.
So you had what you wanted a few years ago. Mozabotes primarily African. So take that and stick it.
And then go back and complain about what Diop said about berbers
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool.
I did download it you fucking piece of shit scumbag. I made a scanned version, web host version which makes it easier for people to upload onto the site. **** your mother and your whole family [/QB]
I guess this is the real lioness. evil euro all over again.
Takruri has no right to call you a bitch Lioness but you take the bait. If your right, post the studies critque it, Tell them what is stated in it and there would be no need to bring peoples families in it. Gotta realize mockery shines a light more on the mocker then the mocked.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ listed as Kabyle.
^^^ If these repersent archaic North Africans you had discussed (perhaps the Capsians were similar) than dark skin and afro hair are not indigenous traits of the Mahgreb
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You dumbass. Don't you even know what an A:B comparison is? Obviously not.
Again you're talking loud and saying nothing.
Ask you for a bed, you bring a reclining beach chair and act like its the same damn thing.
You don't get it that haplogroups are not physical remains nor does haplogroup necessarily indicate phenotype. You also overlook improbabilities brought up by hg coalescence making some Kefi assignments doubtful.
You can not even do the math to see Kefi's slide frequencies can't add up to 100% w/o the L3/M/N. You don't have the skill to check Kefi's motifs to see that at least 6 of them can be various L clades. So go on and make pretend Taf VIII, Kefi's L3/M/N, cranium is not African but evidence of European phenotype.
You have absolutely no ability to analyse what you read, critique it for faults, or arrive at your own independent conclusions or even synthesis.
You just squawk, like a parrot, the same bullshit over and over and over again and again and again.
We know Iberia and Morocco comprises Alboran and was easy to travel back and forth vs littoral NA and the rest of Africa being essentially isolated during the LGAM. What you fail to factor in is the origin of the peopling of the Maghreb before the the ice and aridity kicked in.
And then you conjure "the true Negro" to spook two modern Maghrebi women out of their African phenotypes even after my 3 post expose on the bankruptness of a dark white Caucasian Hamite north and east Africa in the pre-Holocene.
Aintcha got no shame?
The Maghreb has had its own regional variety of African just as other areas in Africa have theirs.
The Maghreb African variant results from relative isolation over the LGAM followed by confluence with other Africans with the advent of the Holocene and apparently always included some percent of north and later east Mediterraneans (and even Arabian Peninsula folk) all increasing in number until producing the situation we have today; a coastal North Africa that is heavily non-African in biology.
Today's reality cannot be extrapolated into the remote prehistoric past.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] If you post those pics again I'll puke. Pics don't prove **** w/o authoritative text. I mean like where's the raw data and statistics, a big fail for you.
Troll keeps asking to see it over and over again
and again here's an authoritative chart for your thick dumb ass
^^^^ This is Trenton Holliday and it's supported by numerical data
This shows Iberomaurusian Afalou as clustering with Alaskans
That means cold adapted limb ratios for you buffoons. And the Taforalt specimens have even lower limb ratios than afalou Iberomaurusian.
This is NON -AFRICAN
that fits the thread theme.
You quibble desperately over the L in one sample.
That doesn't change the fact that Taforalt had high percentages of H, U ( not U6) JT and V.
For the buffoons this also indicates Eurasian mtDNA in North Africa 10-12000 years ago, right ???
You cant deal with facts, if You include some L it doesn't matter.
nether of you have been able to refute this.
Troll isn't even aware that Iberomaurusian and Capsians, Gobero have different morphologies.
And looking at the tawny Khosians (the ones with less bantu admixture) at silar distance from the equator it would be reasonble to expect Maghrebians to be not so dark.
Troll Patrol puts up endless pictures of children in Africa, nobody says anything.
I put up pictures of Mozabites, some even more African looking than Doc Scientia had put up.
And maybe the pictures I put up do represent primarily African somewhere past 50%.
So you had what you wanted a few years ago. Mozabotes primarily African. So take that and stick it.
And then go back and complain about what Diop said about berbers
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Bitch is as bitch does, bitching. Now ain't that a bitch!
Let's get this straight I have the right to do whatever I want to. Keep out of what's no concern to you. Where were you all the times the bitch insulted me unprovoked or wiped her feet on me after I accorded it the same deference as respectful posters?
Mind your own beeswax, Jack.
quote:Originally posted by KING: Takruri has no right to call you a bitch Lioness but you take the bait.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A little basic math lesson.
Kefi's table has 23 entries.
The three Taf V entries were reduced to one, leaving a base of 21 entries.
Kefi has: * local North African U6 at 9.5% (2/21) * presumed foreign H U JT V at 90.5% (but 18/21 = 85.7%) * presumed "sub-Sudanese" L3/M/N at 0% (but 1/21 = 4.8%)
Note that 9.5 + 85.7 = 95.2 not 100
To arrive at 90.5% for H U JT V Kefi had to add the sub-Sudanese 4.8% to the foreign 85.7%. Kefi, with a stroke of the pen and hoping no one would notice, added sub-Sudanese L3/M/N to the Eurasiatic component.
Kefi has been dishonest and biased against non-local Africans in her aDNA report on Taforalt as her fudging of the stats clearly shows. In her drive to disallow what she sees as sub-Sudanese Maurusian founders Kefi failed to announce possible L clades in her 2005 report though in 2009 she admits Sudani (or Sudani-like "genes") in Holocene Maghreb.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
This confirms the above, as per Tukuler.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So when are you going to show us the Paleolithic and Epipaleolithic Eurasian industry, distribution and remains in Africa?
I'll do it now
Paleolithic Eurasians with cold adapted limb ratio and Eurasian haplogroups
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Great just great,
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
quote:
Summary. — Recent discoveries in Western Sahara evidence the presence of Cromagnoid settlement in this region during the Early Holocene. These new data throw new light on the problem of morphological and geographical evolution of Mechta-Afalou- Taforalt men. The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara) raise the question of their origins : migration from Maghreb at the beginning of the Holocene during a wet climatic phase or local evolution from an aterian ancestor common to maghrebian and saharan Cromagnoids ?... The numerous climatic changes occur ing in this part of Sahara during the last 30 kyrs could be an efficient evolutive promotor and can explain the morphological and cultural differences observed between the saharan and maghrebian series. However, what will happen latter to african Cromagnoids in the Maghreb and especially in the Sahara is still an open question.
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
^^^ Hard to tell what is going on with the upper skeleton. The profile of the skull is different from the lower skeleton and the femur appears much shorter than the lower skeleton but It's hard to tell because it may be damaged making it appear different-not sure
At 80 km at the north-eastward of Guelmim (toward Tata), the protohistorical site of Adrar Zerzem is located in the Taghjirjt commune.
The dating of this site goes back to
about 2,500 years before our era.
About 37 death monuments of old amazigh inhabitants and other monuments confirms the human settling in the area. These discoveries will contribute to the enrichment of historic research concerning this important period of Morocco history which has occurred before the discovery of the Moroccan coasts by Phoenician sailors. To be seen on the elevations of Tahghjijt, the old citadel of DAR ES SOULTAN.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco A. Bouzouggar, R. N. E. Barton, S. Blockley, C. Bronk-Ramsey, S. N. Collcutt, R. Gale, T. F. G. Higham, L. T. Humphrey, S. Parfitt, E. Turner,
Abstract Chronological evidence for the Iberomaurusian is currently very limited and there are problems with some of the published radiocarbon dates. In this paper we present new AMS dating results from well-stratified cave sequences at Ghar Cahal, Kehf el Hammar and Taforalt in northern and eastern Morocco. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–11,000 bp (radiocarbon determinations presented in this paper are expressed as ka bp or bp, whilst approximate calendar ages are expressed as Cal bp) with a marked intensification of cave use soon after ca. 13,000 bp. Using calibrated AMS ages in comparison to sea surface temperature evidence from the Alboran Sea core MD95-2043 and more generally to Greenland ice δ18O core records, we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^^^ Hard to tell what is going on with the upper skeleton. The profile of the skull is different from the lower skeleton and the femur appears much shorter than the lower skeleton but It's hard to tell because it may be damaged making it appear different-not sure
At 80 km at the north-eastward of Guelmim (toward Tata), the protohistorical site of Adrar Zerzem is located in the Taghjirjt commune.
The dating of this site goes back to
about 2,500 years before our era.
About 37 death monuments of old amazigh inhabitants and other monuments confirms the human settling in the area. These discoveries will contribute to the enrichment of historic research concerning this important period of Morocco history which has occurred before the discovery of the Moroccan coasts by Phoenician sailors. To be seen on the elevations of Tahghjijt, the old citadel of DAR ES SOULTAN.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco A. Bouzouggar, R. N. E. Barton, S. Blockley, C. Bronk-Ramsey, S. N. Collcutt, R. Gale, T. F. G. Higham, L. T. Humphrey, S. Parfitt, E. Turner,
Abstract Chronological evidence for the Iberomaurusian is currently very limited and there are problems with some of the published radiocarbon dates. In this paper we present new AMS dating results from well-stratified cave sequences at Ghar Cahal, Kehf el Hammar and Taforalt in northern and eastern Morocco. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–11,000 bp (radiocarbon determinations presented in this paper are expressed as ka bp or bp, whilst approximate calendar ages are expressed as Cal bp) with a marked intensification of cave use soon after ca. 13,000 bp. Using calibrated AMS ages in comparison to sea surface temperature evidence from the Alboran Sea core MD95-2043 and more generally to Greenland ice δ18O core records, we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
Nobody is ignoring the existence.
You complain about the first image I've posted, how about the image on the Hattab 2 Cave?
The fossils I've posted are from Adrar Zerzem and date back to the Holocene-Mesolithic period. Not some recent Neolithic invasion, as you tend to claim.
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology. And Tukuler showed you the genetic resolutions.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
See, what you've posted, I wrote this a few pages back on climatological impact.
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
A few more profiles,
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ and where are these from and what time period?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ and where are these from and what time period?
I have told you this repeatedly, Holocene-Mesolithic timeframe.
And the whole puzzle is falling in it's right place. Where collected the pieces and put them in the right place. It's almost done!
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara.
The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
You complain about the first image I've posted, how about the image on the Hattab 2 Cave?
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology. And Tukuler showed you the genetic resolutions.
My complaint is that you marked remaiins from Adrar Zerzem from 2500 years ago as Taforalt Cromagnids.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
You complain about the first image I've posted, how about the image on the Hattab 2 Cave?
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology. And Tukuler showed you the genetic resolutions.
My complaint is that you marked remaiins from Adrar Zerzem from 2500 years ago as Taforalt Cromagnids.
As. I have stated be for, per many times. The specimen I've shown is from either Holocene Mesolithic-Neolithic (prehistoric) time. And fact of the matter is, they all cluster, with specimen from the South, as has been repeated many times by now. Shown by tons of different scientific disciplines.
We have summed up all kind of evidence, so please don't being ridiculous. (Recent slaves)
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ this guy is playing games
shows numerous skeletons, yet no source links to any of the photos.
that's intentional
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
^^^ this article refers to a possible later extension of Iberomaurusians of Tafroalt, Morocco into Hassi-el-Abiod in Mali. This would fit the edn of wet phase transition driving this partcular robust cromagnid population south
Skeletal remains in both of these areas are temperate proportioned not tropical
_________________________________________________
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia 2010
Claudio Ottoni equal contributor, Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor, Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,Alessandro Achilli, Cristina Martínez-Labarga, Gianfranco Biondi, Antonio Torroni, Olga Rickards mail
Published: October 21, 2010
Abstract
The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1, a mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that is common in all Western European populations. To define how and when H1 spread from Europe to North Africa up to the Central Sahara, in Fezzan, we investigated the complete mitochondrial genomes of eleven Libyan Tuareg belonging to H1. Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago, while phylogenetic analyses reveal three novel H1 branches, termed H1v, H1w and H1x, which appear to be specific for North African populations, but whose frequencies can be extremely different even in relatively close Tuareg villages. Overall, these findings support the scenario of an arrival of haplogroup H1 in North Africa from Iberia at the beginning of the Holocene, as a consequence of the improvement in climate conditions after the Younger Dryas cold snap, followed by in situ formation of local H1 sub-haplogroups. This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
Entrance into the Levant paved the way to the dispersal of modern humans both north-westward into Europe and south-westward into Northern Africa [10], [11]. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), approximately between 26.5 and 19 kya [12] ice sheets largely covered large portions of North America and Europe. In warmer regions of the world, the climate was cooler and drier and deserts spread over large regions, particularly in Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia [13], [14]. Accordingly, during the LGM, humans concentrated in refugial areas of southwestern Europe, in the Balkans and Levant, and on the east European plains [9], [15], [16]. The subsequent Bølling warming, around 15 kya, triggered re-expansion processes which led to the resettlement of Central and Northern Europe. Genetic signatures of these expansions are evident in mtDNA genealogies, for instance haplogroups H1, H3 and V contributed to the gradual re-peopling of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge in the postglacial [17], [18]. Similarly, though to a lesser extent, H5*(xH5a), H20 and H21 may be associated to a postglacial population expansion phase in the Caucasus area [19]. Although restricted to the Mediterranean coast, an expansion took place also from the Italian peninsula northward, as attested to by the haplogroup U5b3 [20].
Evidence of trans-Mediterranean contacts between Northern Africa and Western Europe has been assessed at the level of different genetic markers (e.g. [21], [22], [23], [24]). With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent [17], [18], [25], but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa [26], [27]. So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.
Within the West-European component in North Africa, H1 is the most represented haplogroup with frequencies ranging from 21% in some Tunisian Berber groups to 1% in Egypt [28]. Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]. Tuareg are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of Northwest Africa, who speak a Berber language. MtDNA analyses performed on the Libyan Tuareg have highlighted their genetic relatedness with some Berber groups and other North African populations, mainly resulting from the sharing of a common West-Eurasian component. A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.
To better define the nature and extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya we have now determined the complete sequence of eleven of their mtDNAs belonging to H1. The comparison of these H1 sequences with those already available from Europe and North Africa provides new clues on how and when H1 spread in Northern Africa up to the Central Sahara.
Overall, the results of this study support the hypothesis that most of the West Eurasian maternal contribution detectable in Northwest African populations is likely linked to prehistoric (i.e. the post-glacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula) rather than more recent historic events [26], [27], [37]. Furthermore, the data presented confirm that the analysis of complete mtDNA sequences represents a valuable tool to reveal not only the spatial patterns beneath large-scale colonization events, but also those of smaller-scale dispersals which may have contributed to the origin of modern populations. In this regard, additional efforts in the full mtDNA analyses of nomad Northern African populations might resolve the debate concerning their origin and their mutual relationship.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa. Mechtoids inhabited Northern Africa during late Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Ibero-Maurusian archaeological culture).
Paleolithic Ibero-Maurusian Mechtoids such as remains found at Taforalt Morocco were assimilated during Neolithic and early Bronze Age by bearers of Afrasian languages, the Capsian culture, from the anthropological standpoint, is considered an indigenous development.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Really great information TP.
The Lioness is not in your league why bother with him and his simplistic analytical ability. Picture spamming.
Are there comparable towns/cities in Iberia/Europe at 15000BC?
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ and where are these from and what time period?
I have told you this repeatedly, Holocene-Mesolithic timeframe.
And the whole puzzle is falling in it's right place. Where collected the pieces and put them in the right place. It's almost done!
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara.
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004 Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Really great information TP.
The Lioness is not in your league why bother with him and his simplistic analytical ability. Picture spamming.
you had to make a huge quote to make that one remark?
Look at the top of the thread, that's Troll Patrol pictures, they have no links for exact locaition and date.
And you want to pretend he has not been posting pictures?
And you want to pretend he doesnt keep asking me over and over again to post a photo?
And you want to pretend I didn't just post an Ottoni / Torroni article which you couldn't deal with ?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa. Mechtoids inhabited Northern Africa during late Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Ibero-Maurusian archaeological culture).
Paleolithic Ibero-Maurusian Mechtoids such as remains found at Taforalt Morocco were assimilated during Neolithic and early Bronze Age by bearers of Afrasian languages, the Capsian culture, from the anthropological standpoint, is considered an indigenous development.
Who gives a phuck what you type and think, it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. Point blank, idiot! You are so retarded you yourself don't know what you type. One minute you'll claim they are extinct and another minute you'll claim they are a continuation. This continuation of course applies only the your hypothetical foreign back migration into Africa, the other way around means no continuation to you. Clown.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
quote:Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin,
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
quote:Who gives a phuck what you type and think, it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. Point blank, idiot!
What has been proven is that Berbers have a mixed Eurasian, European and African heritage (both ancient and recent). The rest is hogwash.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Really great information TP.
The Lioness is not in your league why bother with him and his simplistic analytical ability. Picture spamming.
you had to make a huge quote to make that one remark?
Look at the top of the thread, that's Troll Patrol pictures, they have no links for exact locaition and date.
And you want to pretend he has not been posting pictures?
And you want to pretend he doesnt keep asking me over and over again to post a photo?
And you want to pretend I didn't just post an Ottoni / Torroni article which you couldn't deal with ?
They know the link and data, I have informed them about these archeological findings, that is what makes you look like a fool.
Your photo is of someone relating to populations from the South, unfortunately you have a very low IQ, and therefore still don't get it.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Who gives a phuck what you type and think, it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. Point blank, idiot!
What has been proven is that Berbers have a mixed Eurasian, European and African heritage (both ancient and recent). The rest is hogwash.
Hogwash is the delusional rubbish you claim. Since population genetics is a buildup of several disciplines, not just genetics. Archeology, anthropology, climatology etc... play part as well.
Facts tell the Tamazight came from the South as indigenous people to Africa. Not as a foreign back migration people. Other than that nothing has been proven. And no one is saying there was no intrusion and admixture which shifted the demographics of ethnicities.
It was shown many times. But the question is and was are Berbers indigenous to Africa. Berbers are primarily not African ?
Yes, they are. If you think different, go get yourself a ticked and tell this yourself, about the hogwash. Because up till now I have not seen anyone do this.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
^^^ this article refers to a possible later extension of Iberomaurusians of Tafroalt, Morocco into Hassi-el-Abiod in Mali. This would fit the edn of wet phase transition driving this partcular robust cromagnid population south
Skeletal remains in both of these areas are temperate proportioned not tropical
_________________________________________________
.
Why the phuck you keep posting the same debunked stuff over and over is beyond me?
Tukuler has explained the nuclear resolutions, quite a few times already.
SMH,
quote:At about 40,000 years ago, however, Homo sapiens, in the form of the Cro-Magnons, began trickling into Europe, probably from an initially African place of origin.
[...]
Bone tools of the kind introduced much later to Europe by the Cro-Magnons, are found at the Congolese site of Katanda, dated to perhaps 80,000 years ago.
Blade tool industries, again formerly associated principally with the Cro-Magnons, are found at least sporadically at sites in Africa that date to as much as a quarter of a million years ago.
These and other early African innovations are reviewed by McBrearty and Brooks (2000).
quote:"The so-called Old Man [Cro-Magnon 1] became the original model for what was once termed the Cro-Magnon or Upper Paleolithic "race" of Europe.. there's no such valid biological category, and Cro-Magnon 1 is not typical of Upper Paleolithic western Europeans- and not even all that similar to the other two make skulls found at the site. Most of the genetic evidence, as well as the newest fossil evidence from Africa argue against continuous local evolution producing modern groups directly from any Eurasian pre-modern population.. there's no longer much debate that a large genetic contribution from migrating early modern Africans infuenced other groups throughout the Old World.“
--B. Lewis et al. 2008. Understanding Humans: Introduction to Physical
quote: If this analysis shows nothing else, it demonstrates that the oft-repeated European feeling that the Cro-Magnons are “us” (47) is more a product of anthropological folklore than the result of the metric data available from the skeletal remains.
--C. Loring Brace(2006) The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form
quote: It has been proposed that heat adapted, relatively long-legged Homo sapiens from Africa replaced the cold adapted, relatively short-legged Homo neandertalensis of the Levant and Europe
--J Hum Evol 32 (1997a) 423], Bogin B, Rios L. et al.
quote: The subsequent post-28,000-B.P. Gravettian human sample of Europe includes numerous associated skeletons (Table 2) (Zilhão & Trinkaus 2002). Most of these specimens are fully modern in their morphology, and there is a persistence in them of both linear (equatorial) limb proportions and more "African" nasal morphology (Trinkaus 1981, Holliday 1997, Franciscus 2003). However, one Iberian specimen (Lagar Velho 1) exhibits Neandertal limb segment proportions and a series of relatively archaic cranial and postcranial features (Trinkaus & Zilhão 2002). In addition, central incisor shoveling, ubiquitous among the Neandertals, absent in the Qafzeh-Skhul sample, and variably present in the earlier European sample, persists at modest frequencies. And scapular axillary border dorsal sulci, an apparently Neandertal feature also absent in the Qafzeh-Skhul sample, is present
--Trinkaus 2005
quote: "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
-- Am J Phys Anthropol. 1975 May;42(3):351-69,
quote:In modern humans, this elongation is a pattern characteristic of warm-adapted populations, and this physique may be an early Cro-Magnon retention from African ancestors. Similar retentions may be observed in certain indices of facial shape [ ...]
--Encyclopedia of Human Evolution and Prehistory: Second Edition by Eric Delson
quote:"others like Predomost and to a lesser degree Grimaldi and Teviec, are more prognathic like Skhul 5."
--Marta Mirazón Lahr. 2005. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity:
quote: Few scientists thought that much of evolutionary significance had gone on in North Africa, or that the region's big-toothed, somewhat archaic-looking hominins might be closely related to the ancestors of many living people. Now, thanks to new excavations and more accurate dating, North Africa boasts unequivocal signs of modern human behavior as early as anywhere else in the world, including South Africa. Climate reconstructions and fossil studies now suggest that the region was more hospitable during key periods than once thought. The data suggest that the Sahara Desert was a land of lakes and rivers about 130,000 years ago, when moderns first left Africa for sites in what is today Israel. And new studies of hominin fossils suggest some strong resemblances—and possible evolutionary connections—between North African specimens and fossils representing migrations out of Africa between 130,000 and 40,000 years ago.
--Michael Balter Was North Africa the Launch Pad for Modern Human Migrations?
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004 Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
--Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast (2004)
And the Adrar Zerzem completely debunked the recent slave transportation.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Is that your refute, delusional clown?!
More, predating.
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
quote:The environmental desiccation experienced in sub-tropical Africa and Asia in the sixth and fifth millennia BP appears to be associated with an abrupt cool episode occurring around 5900 years BP that led to widespread aridity (Bond et al., 1997; Goodfriend, 1991; Smith, 1998). Research into land-atmosphere interaction suggests that this event may have acted as a trigger for long-term desiccation in some regions (such as the eastern Sahara) and that subsequent desiccation around 5000 years BP was due to a collapse of vegetation feedbacks as orbital forcing of the summer monsoon weakened (Claussen et al., 1999, 2003; Haug et al., 2001). It should be noted that the cool/arid episode that has been linked to societal collapse around 4200 years BP (Cullen et al., 2000; Weiss, 1997) was of a qualitatively similar nature to that of 5900 years BP, while the outcomes of these events, according to the above hypothesis, were very different. It is not only different outcomes from similar types of event that cautions us against simple climatic determinism.
The concentration of populations in expanding settlements where surface water is available, and the organisation of these populations into specialised urban and/or stratified state-level societies, is not the only response to increasing aridity evident in the archaeological record. In other words the nature of the response is not determined by the nature of the climatic stress to which people must adapt. Differential adaptation is apparent in response to climatic desiccation in the Fezzan region of southern Libya, where Di Lernia and Palombini (2002) describe two contrasting responses to aridity in the middle Holocene. In higher elevation regions cattle herding, previously the dominant economic activity, almost completely disappeared after 5000 years BP. The keeping of cattle was replaced by highly mobile pastoralism based on sheep and goats and involving large-scale year round movement in order to exploit remnant water and pasture, a nomadic lifestyle that persists to this day. In contrast, lower elevation regions were characterised by increasing settlement in relict oases, associated with sedentism and more intensive exploitation of local resources. Settlement in the relict oases ultimately led to the emergence of the Garamantian civilisation in the early third millennium BP, based on the exploitation of underground water resources via the construction of subterranean irrigation channels or foggara (Wilson and Mattingly, 2003). The Garamantes dominated the Fezzan between about 3000 years BP and 700 years AD, and their society appears to have arisen as the result of local innovation, the outcome of a process of increasing social complexity among the pastoral groups of the Fezzan (Di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly, 2003).
As seems to have occurred in Egypt and Mesopotamia, the emergence of the Garamantian polity was associated with inward migration, increased population density, changes in religious beliefs and practices, social stratification and a more territorial approach to the landscape, catalysed by the final desiccation of most of the landscape soon after 3000 years BP (Brooks et al., 2003; Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 2001; Di Lernia et al, 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
The evidence strongly suggests that climatic desiccation centred around 5000 years BP played a major role in the emergence of early complex societies or “civilisations”, characterised by a high degree of some or all of the following: urbanisation, specialisation, social stratification, and state-level organisation. This event appears to have been connected with a combination of millennial-scale North Atlantic variability, orbitally-induced southwards monsoonal retreat, and a collapse of vegetation-atmosphere feedbacks. Nonetheless, the nature of early civilisations varied considerably, and there was no single trajectory followed by societies as they adapted to increasing aridity.
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
maybe you didn't understand this article. You can see by the map the Eurasian Iberomasurian kisses Gibraltar.
read:
SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
^^^ this means that within in Africa this "Mechtoid" human type was in the Maghreb Morocco first -then, to have later extended, from there to Mali
Do you get that ?
the extension is from the Maghreb to the Mali, Sahara
I read read the article. The similar remains in one particular site in Mali are LATER in date to the Moroccan sites in the Maghreb
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ just look at the map
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
maybe you didn't understand this article. You can see by the map the Eurasian Iberomasurian kisses Gibraltar.
read:
SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
^^^ this means that in Africa this type was in the Maghreb Morocco first -then, to have later extended, from there to Mali
Do you get that ?
the extension is from the Maghreb to the Mali, Sahara
I read read the article. The similar remains in one particular site in Mali are LATER in date to the Moroccan sites in the Maghreb
I do understand it very well, by this profile.
Let's read it again,
>>>The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara) raise the question of their origins : migration from Maghreb at the beginning of the Holocene during a wet climatic phase or local evolution from an aterian ancestor common to maghrebian and saharan Cromagnoids ?...
All you need to do is read all the other archeological and anthropological, climatological data I've posted.
All you need to do is look into the nuclear resolutions as posted by Tukuler.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology.
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
you have clearly misuderstood this article
It is saying that Taforalt Morocco type humans extended from the North, in Morocco, the Mahgreb to the South in Mali
You have it backwards
The remains in the SAHARA (Mali) were an extension of the Taforalt type Moroccan remains in the MAGHREB
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
migration from Maghreb
yes FROM THE MAHGREB (in Morocco)
>> TO MALI
that is NORTH TO SOUTH
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology.
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
you have clearly misuderstood this article
It is saying that Taforalt Morocco type humans extended from the North, in Morocco, the Mahgreb to the South in Mali
You have it backwards
The remains in the SAHARA (Mali) were an extension of the Taforalt Moroccan reamins in the MAGHREB
I don't have it backwards, I look into many different data, as I have posted. This is what confirms that they came from the South. This is the part you don't get. In that study, they were surprised about such striking similarities.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ]I don't have it backwards, I look into many different data, as I have posted. This is what confirms that they came from the South. This is the part you don't get. In that study, they were surprised about such striking similarities. [/QB]
it's very simple look at where FROM is and where TO is
FROM Morocco in the MAGHREB
TO Mali in the SAHARA
They noticed a similarity between LATER remains in MALI to the remains in TAFORALT Morocco
--- It's evident in the title of the article
>>> And if you translate the article to English
you have the quote indicating this:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
migration from Maghreb
Also note that some of thes sites have skeletons from differnt time periods, different types within them
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ]I don't have it backwards, I look into many different data, as I have posted. This is what confirms that they came from the South. This is the part you don't get. In that study, they were surprised about such striking similarities.
it's very simple look at where FROM is and where TO is
FROM Morocco in the MAGHREB
TO Mali in the SAHARA
They noticed a similarity between LATER remains in MALI to the remains in TAFORALT Morocco
--- It's evident in the title of the article
>>> And if you translate the article to English
you have the quote indicating this:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
migration from Maghreb
Also note that some of thes sites have skeletons form differnt time periods, different types within them [/QB]
The only scrutiny evidence in that article is that the specimen clusters. No more no less. Everything else was a question mark for them. ("raise the question of their origins").
Yet, what we find is that all cluster with specimen from the South, remarkable it's it?
This follows the path of the nuclear DNA. As Tukular explained to you. Straight from the Sudan.
quote:Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
quote:The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery...
The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions...
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
--Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) (1975)
The geographical area studied (region of Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali)
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:... it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. ...
What has been proven is that Berbers have a mixed Eurasian, European and African heritage (both ancient and recent). The rest is hogwash.
^^^ Diop quote, a little extreme
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
Ok so this is a quote from the peer reviewed paper titled "Yemenis in the Western Sahara" by H. T. Norris. Source" The Journal of African History. Vol 3. No. 2, Third Conference on African History and Archeology: School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, 3-7 July 1961 from page 319
Here is a video of Tajkinti people (one of the tribes mentioned in the article). These are found in Algeria according to what the caption on the video says.
There look would make sense if they were the original Moors. You see from the video they go from being very dark/black to being mulatto to white looking. Being in Europe for centuries, I am positive they would have mixed with Europeans hence the myriad of colors.
Here are Hadhrami people in Yemen doing Folk Dances:
I would assume these people left Yemen with their black color, when they entered Africa and probably acquired lighter skinned kins men as they mixed when Europeans, Arabs and Turks. We also know that untold number of Europeans were brought into Africa as slaves back then as well.
The thing for Imazighen avoiding Yemeni Arabs to do was to retreat from their advance. So they moved ever southward but the banu Hassan caught up to them and beat them in war. They then established themselves as the ruling class.
Naturally, to escape oppression, any Amazigh who could did in fact claim Yemeni ancestry. Only a few Imazighen proudly retained their Zenaga identity. Today they number less than 1000.
That Zenaga Imazighen of Mauritania and the Western Sahara are Yemeni Arabs is a self-serving social myth for the most part.
Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs and Arab influence from the north. The growing Arab presence pressed the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.
After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by the Berbers. Several groups of Yemeni Arabs who had been devastating the north of Africa turned south to Mauritania. Settling in northern Mauritania, they disrupted the caravan trade, causing routes to shift east, which in turn led to the gradual decline of Mauritania's trading towns. One particular Yemeni group, the Bani Hassan, continued to migrate southward until, by the end of the 17th century, they dominated the entire country. The last effort of the Berbers to shake off the Arab yoke was the Mauritanian Thirty Years' War (1644-74), or Sharr Bubba, led by Nasir ad Din, a Lemtuna imam (see Glossary). This Sanhadja war of liberation was, however, unsuccessful; the Berbers were forced to abandon the sword and became vassals to the warrior Arab groups.
Thus, the contemporary social structure of Mauritania can be dated from 1674. The warrior groups or Arabs dominated the Berber groups, who turned to clericalism to regain a degree of ascendancy. At the bottom of the social structure were the slaves, subservient to both warriors and Islamic holy men. All of these groups, whose language was Hassaniya Arabic, became known as Maures. The bitter rivalries and resentments characteristic of their social structure were later fully exploited by the French.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A good capsule of Bekada's (2013, Pereira ed.) data for our purposes is Table 2 with the Table S9 key.
Here is T2 with populations reordered from Mauritania across Mediterranean Africa to Arabia and the Levant then from Iran across Southwest Asia's mountains to the peninsulas, islands, and coast of Mediterranean Europe.
I've included, at bottom, a somewhat phylogenetic reorder of Bekada's TS9. There, are detailed, the haplogroups and the major geographies she's assigned to each one; either East Africa, Europe, Mid-East, North Africa, or West Africa.
Bekada recognizes a subclade may be of a different geography than its parent clade or that clade's upstream haplogroup(s).
-----------
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each target African group and views of them as * a Northern Africa superset * a Tamazgha subset, and * a Maghrebi core subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
This posting updates or replaces my comments on quoted Bekada non-raw data text statements made in earlier posts to this thread.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Clearly we can see that mtDNA haplogroups TUV are the product of back migration into Africa (a very long time ago). They are all descendants of the N haplogroup (and R) which originates in population who left Africa after the main OOA migration. Then migrated back into Africa a very long time ago. Then they admixed between themselves, with other (sub-Saharan) Africans and with Western Asians (Arabs). They obviously have ownership right on the continent (as any citizen of African country for that matter) but they are still the product of 3 different ancestral origin. European, Eurasian and African. A nice mix.
Using autosomal DNA they tend to cluster with Eurasian more. Same as culturally. If you ask them they would also say the same thing in general; They feel they are part of the Middle Eastern/Mediterranean cultural field.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Why are you placing Europe first? It is just a graft onto the African tree. Also Europe is part of EurAsia so why list Europe and Eurasia when Eurasia suffices?
Why are you placing Africa last? Africa alone is the "Berber" root. U6 is recognized as African. E-M35 is recognized as African.
If H1,3 is European it still came later. Eurasian nrY J came even later still. H1,3 is controversial since Frigi postulated their likely African origin.
As will be seen as I progress thru recent genetic reports autosomes reveal North African populations as overwhelming of local African biology. Just look at some of the structure skylines.
Can you please shrink those images they are stretching the page width forcing left right scrolling each and every line just to read all the previous posts.
Thanks for not making my thread a scroll pain to follow and read.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Why are you placing Europe first?
Because first they were European migrants carrying mtDNA HUV, in very ancient time, who then admixed Africans carrying E-M81 (as well as other European and West Asians). Both M81 and the Berber language are relatively recent.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Please shrink or post links to those migration maps, thank you. Thanks for not making my thread a scroll pain to follow and read.
U6 is some 40k old and is not European at all. H1,3 is only 12k old. V is the same age or younger. That is just the female side. And it excludes mtDNA L's in NA which are as old as H1,3 and V.
What male signatures are coeval with indigenous U6?
What would compiling an NA table with the following columns reveal?
Haplogroup - Possible time of origin - Possible place of origin - Highest frequencies
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Please shrink or post links to those migration maps, thank you. Thanks for not making my thread a scroll pain to follow and read.
U6 is some 40k old and is not European at all.
It's Eurasian because it's parents are Eurasian. Descended from mtDNA N and R haplogroups. MtDNA haplogroups which originate outside Africa as we can see on the maps.
Unfortunately, the aDNA samples didn't involve Y-DNA analysis, so we don't know anything about the Y-DNA profile of any ancient specimen in the Maghreb.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
By that argument N is African because its parent L3 is African. In fact it is referred to as L3N in the field. Continuing that argument R is African because N is African.
Anyway no population geneticist claims U6 is Eurasian.
U6 is universally recognized as local North African.
In regards to Bekada please refer to the tables where she qualifies haplogroups by geography. To avoid endless argument over hg provenance I am just using what geneticsts reports I cite say are the haplogroups geographic assignments.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The growing Arab presence pressed the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those
The concept being put forward with these two statements is that the berbers are primarily African but not blacks.
The question that comes up is is there such thing as a deep rooted purely indigenous African berber or are berbers by definition mixed people only in part deep rooted indigenous Africans regardless of if they are primarily, i.e. 50%+, one side or the other, African/Eurasian.
There is not much importants to this word "primarily". If somebody is 60% one thing and 40% another they are significantly mixed. And I suppose this also means Barack Obama is not black
And although there may have been a lot of European slave input into Algeria, H, HV0 J, U DNA Haplogroups have been detected in Paleolithic remains in Morocco. That means Eurasians were in the region in prehistoric times. That is green period Maghreb before "berber" is even recognized historically. These Eurasians may have been as dark as the darker Southern Europeans, yet cold adapted in physical morphology
All this effort to state the obvious, the berbers are a mixed people
- and people prehistorically, of the same region
This term "Moor" is interesting because of potential overlap with the term "berber"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Unfortunately, the aDNA samples didn't involve Y-DNA analysis, so we don't know anything about the Y-DNA profile of any ancient specimen in the Maghreb. [/QB]
Yes, people forget this
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Had you never posited the erroneous statement Berbers are not primarily African this thread would not be necessary to dispel your lie.
Geneticists recognize deep rooting and say Berber deep rooting is African.
quote: ... ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. ... Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
Frigi 2010 abstract
Berber origins are already established as African. We will continue quantifying admixture to Berbers onto their qualifying foundational African root.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I think it's pretty much established in the field that usable ancient DNA is always mitochondrial. If either of you had looked at several human aDNA reports you'd know this and wouldn't ask why Kefi left out nrY DNA.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Unfortunately, the aDNA samples didn't involve Y-DNA analysis, so we don't know anything about the Y-DNA profile of any ancient specimen in the Maghreb.
Yes, people forget this [/QB]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Had you never posited the erroneous statement Berbers are not primarily African this thread would not be necessary to dispel your lie.
Geneticists recognize deep rooting and say Berber deep rooting is African.
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
Frigi 2010 abstract
Me and Diop, yeah
You with the idea of a primarily African people yet not black
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: By that argument N is African because its parent L3 is African. In fact it is referred to as L3N in the field. Continuing that argument R is African because N is African.
Anyway no population geneticist claims U6 is Eurasian.
Every geneticists admit it's parent haplogroup like other ancestral U, N and R is Eurasian even if the U6 mutation itself may have first appeared in North Africa (or in the Near East or Iberia). So ultimately they are a product of a very ancient back migration into Africa. Autosomal DNA would also cluster most Berbers with Eurasians not with other black African people.
This study goes even further than me and posit a Near Eastern origin of U6:
quote:World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6.
From Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
And ultimately U N & R are a product of a very ancient movement from Africa thus by your tautological argument they too are African.
But I don't go for any of that. Don't like Bekada assigning U6 to North Africa then write and take it up with her.
U6 is African, period. U6 is not their only pre-Holocene African mtDNA. Even Maca-Meyer who thinks Caucasians existed >40k recognizes that U6 is a native African haplogroup.
I am not going to continue this chit chat but do invite you read and analyze genetic reports and post their raw data in support of your view.
Me I'm just doing that very thing and this first analysis featuring Bekada approached neutrally wound up with raw data leaning to Berbers are primarily African. It did not show that Berbers are not primarily African.
You can keep going on with unsupported viewpoints and twisting accepted haplogroup geographies or you can do some research and present it here.
I'm not responding to anymore personal opinions today.
My task is not to convince you but to provide facts and figures and their assessment to the readership.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
Tuklur
I find a number of issues with what you have. The first of which is the fact it doesn't seem to point to any verifiable evidence, just conjecture and supposition.
Secondly it tries to separate the Amazigh from other black Africans, in some fantastical made up sorta way. We know the Sanhaja were black, because of eye witness accounts. There was a group of white sanhaja, but the majority are described as being black by eye witness. Eye witnesses attempted to explain the appearance of whites who were called Sanhaja to geographical location, ie environment turning their black skin white, which is silly. More likely than not some outside group mixed into the main Sanhaja group and a portion of them because white looking. Here is a excerpt taken from the peer reviewed article "What Happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun:
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'm not responding to anymore personal opinions today.
Thank you for your opinion.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
TypeZeiss
I am not in total agreement with that quote from the Library of Congress on Mauritania but it served the purpose of explaining that Maures are not Yemenis but were conquered by them, absorbed them, and took on their lect.
You and I both know the antipathy Senegalese hold for Mauritanians is what was behind Diop claiming Yemeni ancestry for Maures as a whole.
Also you must be precise in examining Maure origins and components and not think general statements about Niger Kel Tamasheq applies to Zenaga Mauritanians.
Of course the Imazighen avoiding the Arabs were black or the most part but please don't act like you don't know that in this region non-Afasian speakers themselves do not call Imazighen black even if they're actual skin tone is as black as a cooking pot.
You do know I'm the guy who's posted info on the type of black local to North Africa for years on end. For instance see Algerian mosaics (link) and this statement from the authentic Moors thread
quote: We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows soot isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
and more info I posted on black North Africa goes unsaid.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am not in total agreement with that quote but it served the purpose of explaining that Maures are not Yemenis but were conquered by them, absorbed them, and took on their lect.
You and I both know the antipathy Senegalese hold for Mauritanians is what was behind Diop claiming Yemeni ancestry for Maures as a whole.
Also you must be precise in examining Maure origins and components and not think general statements about Niger Kel Tamasheq applies to Zenaga Mauritanians.
Of course the Imazighen avoiding the Arabs were black or the most part but please don't act like you don't know that in the region non-Afasian speakers themselves do not call Imazighen black even if they're actual skin tone is as black as a cooking pot.
In every other post Tukuler is bullshitting us. I would take Diop over Tukuler any time of the day. One is a great African historian, the other, well just an ID on the ES forum, who knows who's behind it...
Berbers don't see themselves as especially affiliated with other black Africans so why would anyone try to push down this issue down our throats? What is this obsession with Berbers and North Africans in general? They are proud people and they don't deny themselves their own ancestry. Which happens to be corroborated by genetics and our knowledge of history.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yeah sure I have a 10 year history on ES as a surreptitious bullshit agent.
Ad hominem is one heluva substitute for research.
Raw DNA data on Berbers is slapping the **** out of you.
Playing my hand before its time but AUTOSOMES do show local African predominance in NA Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Yeah sure I have a 10 year history on ES as a surreptitious bullshit agent.
Ad hominem is one heluva substitute for research.
Raw DNA data on Berbers is slapping the **** out of you.
Playing my hand before its time but AUTOSOMES showing local African predominance in NA
Your autosomal picture don't shows Berbers to be especially affiliated with other black Africans. It just shows that Berber are in North Africa since a long time ago (pale blue part, dark blue part at K=8), then it shows West Asian (Green and purple) admixture.
Even Tunisians grew up to form their own cluster with their dark blue part (according to your graph). As any populations eventually would in those analysis. It doesn't mean they were always isolated from every other populations in North Africa and the rest of the world. I'm not sure you have enough genetic knowledge to understand that.
You're don't realize what you posted is completely in line with what I said above. That Berbers are mix of European, West Asian and African ancestry (ancient and recent).
When geneticist say North African ancestry they don't mean they are related to other Sub-Saharan Africans, they mean that those ancestry are in North Africa since a very long time ago.
Every geneticists would agree that HUV haplogroups ancestral parents originate outside Africa. Either in Europe or Western Asia.
In other words, Berbers are in North Africa since a long time and are not especially related to other black Africans beside through admixture. They are mixed. There's nothing wrong with having a nice admixture. Berbers don't deny it and nobody else deny it beside ES Tukuler obsessed with Berbers and North African populations.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Stop playing dumb, Maghrebis have their own local distinct autosome set and it clearly predominates.
Don't be so obtuse. Berbers are root Africans who have been mixed by grafted on EurAsians. Too bad for those who don't like it or can't comprehend what they read and go on to erroneously assume what I do or don't know when a simple reading of all I've posted on Berbers for near on a decade now clearly shows I know Berbers are derived from Pleistocene Africans who later mixed with Holocene nonAfricans.
North Africa was never originally migrant Europeans who settled unoccupied landspace only to later mix with natives from ???.
The point is not to turn North Africans into any other kind of Africans than they are and they indeed are the local variant of African.
You have seen examples of African dominant Berber uniparentals.
You have seen examples of African dominant Berber autosomes.
You have failed to show nonAfrican dominant Berber DNA.
You just can't handle the straight scientific data because it knocks the **** out your personal opinion.
So go on with your biased chit chat since we see you can't read, analyze, critique, comment on, or cite and post from population genetics texts just the pretty pictures from DNAtribes or Family Tree DNA is at your speed.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The point is not to turn North Africans into any other kind of Africans than they are and they indeed are the local variant of African.
First it was the Berbers now it's the whole North Africans which are supposedly genetically and historically related to other sub-Saharan Africans. You're getting more ridiculous.
Everybody knows North Africans are mostly related to Eurasian. Either in Ancient or more recent time. Which btw is not a crime. They are great people, who have full ownership right in Africa but they sprung from different origins and are not so much genetically related to other black Africans. Not even Berbers and North Africans deny their own Eurasian ancestry. Only ES Tukuler.
For example, this man is a Zambian, an African (of "recent" European origin) and he has been chosen as Vice-President of Zambia. I don't think he's genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
I'm sure like the Berbers and other North Africans, he is also proud of his ancestral origin. So who are you ES Tukuler to deny that? You don't even have enough genetic knowledge to understand anything you're talking about.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Please quote me saying North Africans have no Eurasian ancestry.
You fall to the lowest of the low, fabricating outright lies about me. You can only sling personal insults. You have no science to post.
Don't you got nothing to post from scientific studies?
Nope not a damn thing just frustrations against al~Takruri.
You have proven you know absolutely nothing about genetics.
And just who are you Mr. self proclaimed "the Ultimate"? The ultimate what? The ultimate mouth runner is about all. Do you really think you can appeal to ES readership against me? Now that's the funniest fallacy of all!!!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
=>
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A good capsule of Bekada's (2013, Pereira ed.) data for our purposes is Table 2 with the Table S9 key.
Here is T2 with populations reordered from Mauritania across Mediterranean Africa to Arabia and the Levant then from Iran across Southwest Asia's mountains to the peninsulas, islands, and coast of Mediterranean Europe.
I've included, at bottom, a somewhat phylogenetic reorder of Bekada's TS9. There, are detailed, the haplogroups and the major geographies she's assigned to each one; either East Africa, Europe, Mid-East, North Africa, or West Africa.
Bekada recognizes a subclade may be of a different geography than its parent clade or that clade's upstream haplogroup(s).
-----------
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Nice way to kick the ball on the sideline.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Please quote me saying North Africans have no Eurasian ancestry.
North Africans claim mostly Eurasian/Arab ancestry (ancient and recent), not just some. So who are you to say the contrary? They don't claim to be genetically affiliated to sub-Saharan Africans to a high level as you claim (beside I guess through some minimal level of admixture). Genetic studies show the same thing. But ES Tukuler has it's own little theory.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each target African group and views of them as * a Northern Africa superset * a Tamazgha subset, and * a Maghrebi core subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
This posting updates or replaces my comments on quoted Bekada non-raw data text statements made in earlier posts to this thread.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: TypeZeiss
I am not in total agreement with that quote from the Library of Congress on Mauritania but it served the purpose of explaining that Maures are not Yemenis but were conquered by them, absorbed them, and took on their lect.
You and I both know the antipathy Senegalese hold for Mauritanians is what was behind Diop claiming Yemeni ancestry for Maures as a whole.
Also you must be precise in examining Maure origins and components and not think general statements about Niger Kel Tamasheq applies to Zenaga Mauritanians.
Of course the Imazighen avoiding the Arabs were black or the most part but please don't act like you don't know that in this region non-Afasian speakers themselves do not call Imazighen black even if they're actual skin tone is as black as a cooking pot.
You do know I'm the guy who's posted info on the type of black local to North Africa for years on end. For instance see Algerian mosaics (link) and this statement from the authentic Moors thread
quote: We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows soot isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
and more info I posted on black North Africa goes unsaid.
haha yes sir, but don't paint with such a wide brush brother. You know, it is those Wolof who seem to hate Mauritania, not all Senegalese. Also, I don't know that I agree that all tamasheq reject referring to themselves as black, when they are indeed black. I have seen them with my own eyes refer to themselves as "black" and the one's I know who said it were Kel Tamasheq, not Bella. But I get your point and I do agree. What your saying is true in terms of the history. Arab Islamic scholars were invited in and taught the locals Islam. It was a native African who invited the Yemeni scholar in to help educate his people on Islam and then they turned around and provided the second wave of Moors into Spain. I would be willing to bet the Yemen contingent at first probably didn't amount to much as they were probably scholars and their families in the beginning. There were Arab scholars invited into Mali as well, and again it was them and their families, not a massive amount. So I do see your point, get your point and agree.
Here is a good video by a native Mauritanian on the history of Al Muraabitoun
Beaten by the argumentation, Tukuler resort to spam this forum with posts he already made just like only 5 posts above trying to hide the part where he got his ass kicked.
ES Tukuler: North Africans are mostly genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Actual North African people and Genetics: No we aren't.
Diop and other historians : No, they aren't.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Thanks for posting this. It's been such a long time I read Diop works.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Hey dumbass
the idea was to start this page with direct geneticist raw data relevant to the thread's header
And quit making up bullshit and claiming it's a quote from me.
Try to cut and paste my actual words.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Another way to kick the ball on the sideline. Avoiding all the argumentation above, preferring to talk about fluff like my name or ridiculous stuff like that.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hey dumbass
the idea was to start this page with direct geneticist raw data relevant to the thread's header
Since I disagree with him and kicked his ass with argumentation now he resorts to insults. Typical.
ES Tukuler: North Africans are mostly genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Actual North African people and Genetics: No we aren't.
Diop and other historians : No, they aren't.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
you can see where this is headed
next thing you know he'll be saying Egypt was founded by berbers, wait
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you can see where this is headed
next thing you know he'll be saying Egypt was founded by berbers, wait
Typical undercover Eurasian nut move (they were more numerous in the past). They always try to find some proxy African populations who are actually admixed with Eurasians like Horn Africans, Berbers, modern Egyptians, etc, to take away the Ancient Egyptian origin from black Africans (sub-Saharan Africans). Hence why their new obsession with Berbers, modern Egyptians and other North African populations.
Unfortunately we don't have much aDNA results about AE. But the results we have thus far are very positive to confirm the mostly black African origin (Sub-Saharan African origin) of Ancient Egyptians (E1b1a, STR alleles from JAMA and BMJ studies, DNA Tribes, etc). Archaeology, and other fields, also confirm or strongly imply the mostly indigenous African origin of AE.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
As much as I like diop, he says Khaldoun is just a bunch of undocumented statements, yet he then goes on to full on conjecture. Secondly I am not sure if he knew about the white slaves imported into North Africa. Lastly Khaldoun was THERE, he saw the population of North Africa in his time, and he said besides ONE group the rest were blacks!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
ALGERIA
mt
EU 29.9 ME 31.4 tot 61.3%
__________________
Y
EU 10.3 ME 29.5 tot 39.8%
_________________________
mt + Y = 101.1
of 200%
__________________________________
NOTE: NA mtDNA incl M1 and U6
origin = ?
The unexpected presence of the European male lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in the Mahgreb could be the male counterpart of the maternal gene flow signaled by the mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3 and HV0. In fact, there are several haplogroups with clear geographical origins from European or North African sides of the Mediterranean, but also present on the opposite side. This could be used to estimate the respective levels of gene flow between areas, assuming that their present day frequencies in the source countries were the same when they spread to the other Mediterranean shore. Thus, mean frequency values for the native North African male clusters E-M81 and E-V65 in the Maghreb [Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya], are 40.03±11.66 and 3.40±0.60 respectively. The mean values for the same markers in western-central Mediterranean Europe [Iberian Peninsula, France and Corsica, Italy, Sardinia and Sicily] are 1.86±1.28 and 0.26±0.8 respectively. Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. Applying the same reasoning, mtDNA U6 and M1 frequencies on the European side would indicate the maternal gene flow from the Maghreb, the estimated value being around 10%. However, when we tried to calculate the European maternal input into the Maghreb using the H1, H3 and HV0 haplogroups, we realized that their respective mean frequencies in Mediterranean Europe [38.33+4.31, 17.27+3.57 and 5.23+1.06] are within the same range as those found in the Maghreb [42.05+4.92, 13.1+3.51 and 6.99+0.90]. This would imply a 100% European contribution to the maternal pool of the Maghreb. The fact that the three markers show similar frequencies on both sides rules out stochastic processes as a possible explanation, but further analyses, based on complete mtDNA sequences, are mandatory to investigate alternative scenarios.
-Bekada et al 2013
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
I've included, at bottom, a somewhat phylogenetic reorder of Bekada's TS9.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You Continentals brothas need to calm down. Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
But irregardless of what the look like, Berbers are Africans. North Africans have a OLDER and more diverse clades of H/HV than Europeans. So irregardless of the beef within Africans, Berbers are Africans. Although some may think within their tiny little heads they are Europeans. But what can you expect from colonial mind...Fanon.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
You Continentals brothas need to calm down. Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
But irregardless of what the look like, Berbers are Africans. North Africans have a OLDER and more diverse clades of H/HV than Europeans. So irregardless of the beef within Africans, Berbers are Africans. Although some may think within their tiny little heads they are Europeans. But what can you expect from colonial mind...Fanon.
Many of them are Europeans, I mean thats a fact. Just as it is is fact that some are mixed with black African and European slaves. We can't erase history.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
. Consider the source. Although I tried giving ARtU benefit of doubt he's like the Lioness' equivalent.
All ES knows who inputted Hawass' data into popSTR and vindicated the results obtained by DNAtribes that everybody can still read here with back filler here.
But none of that matters to some guys.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
Consider the source. Although I tried giving ARtU benefit of doubt he's just the Lioness' equivalent.
All ES knows who inputted Hawass' data into popSTR and vindicated the results obtained by DNAtribes that everybody can still read here with back filler here
But none of that matters to a fool.
All I can say Takruri is that you have made more valuable contributions to these forums then the 2 people you are debeating right now and don't let the ignorance get to you. Learning a lot just from your posts also notice the divide and conquer bull that some use in using Diop to promote there ideology.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
King
Yeah I do know better but yesterday I had time to shoot and against better judgement I did that back and forth thing.
So let me shut it down right now.
Sorry boss and sorry to all I let down.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
.
No argument from me about that see NA Bottomline (link).
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
What you written is nothing but True Zeiss. You see it around you with certain self hating Indians claiming anything other then there blackness. "No I am brown" I laugh at this because if it was the USA they would of went through the same things that happened to the Blacks and Latinos during the civil rights. Brainwashing is rife with Indians probably the most brainwashed people on this earth next to the white berbers. The good thing about Indians though is there are many who are trying to break the cycle of selfhate and you gotta commend them for trying because TRUTH IS that Indians shockingly ARE BLACK. Yeah lioness and her retarded Tut looks Indian was the dumbest thing I have read but it shows the Mentality of these people
I have a Friend thats light skinned and claims I stereotype people when I was telling her TRUTH not stereotypes, but because I did not say it political correct, she got upset. Blacks like her are quick to defend other races and not her own. I told her chinese people make chinatowns in every country they live in and are closed off from the larger communities they live in. There areas some cant even speak the lingua franca of the Country they live in and onluy speak mandarin and cantonese.
She goes to me oh I have many asian friends and there parents speak english good. Then I said to her if chinese arent closed off, then why is there things CALLED CHINATOWN in the 1st place and why are the signs on the shop majority in Chinese in an English country. Then she said oh there is little portagoal and Italy blah blah blah. I asked her in these places are there signs on these places strictly in Italian and Porotguese. I asked her a Yes and No question that she had no choice but to say YES TO BOTH QUESTIONS.
So its still there colonial minds is everywhere.
Colonial mind is why these berber people can't unite with there fellow brothers in there communities and open doors for each other instead of just for themselves. Yet when they reach there "MOTHERLAND" (France ) they are actually shocked to see how they are treated. hate begets hate. It does not work, there are better ways, but to see it through the haze is difficult for many.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: What you written is nothing but True Zeiss. You see it around you with certain self hating Indians claiming anything other then there blackness. "No I am brown" I laugh at this because if it was the USA they would of went through the same things that happened to the Blacks and Latinos during the civil rights. Brainwashing is rife with Indians probably the most brainwashed people on this earth next to the white berbers. The good thing about Indians though is there are many who are trying to break the cycle of selfhate and you gotta commend them for trying because TRUTH IS that Indians shockingly ARE BLACK. Yeah lioness and her retarded Tut looks Indian was the dumbest thing I have read but it shows the Mentality of these people [/QB]
Black Indians are not related to Africans in any significant way. They don't share significant DNA or historic link with black African people like Yoruba, Wolof, Dinka, Zulu, etc. At least not more than European people for example.
It's not about semantic. If we call black Indians populations, the A group and Sub-Saharan African populations the B group. We would see only limited DNA linkage between the A and B group and thus limited historical linkage. Black Indians never cluster with African people on autosomal genetic studies. Same thing with Berbers. If we call them the A group and Sub-Saharan Africans the B group. Then we would see limited DNA linkage between the A group and the B group thus limited historical linkage. Although Berber populations, even Berber with pale skin, are much closer to African than black Indians populations (due to higher level of admixture since they are geographically closer).
Obviously all those things have repercussion in the medical field since some diseases affect more some group of people who are genetically related than others.
But it also have repercussion in the historic/archaeological field. To know for example what part of the culture is related to shared origin (like archaeological assemblage, artifact like headrests,languages, etc) or to something else. Or simply to follow population movements along the years.
I just want to repeat that it's not about semantic or politic. Any citizen of an African country including Europeans, Arabs, Berbers or people of any origin have full ownership right on the continent. It's about tracing the true history of people and their linkage to one another.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
You nailed it in that first post on that thread you linked. The thing is, for TRUE africans to understand how these half caste got there. Once they understand that, then they can understand the African contribution to the world, because now, culture thieves, like Europeans and half castes can not deny us our history. Africans can understand that all the stuff you see built in North Africa is ours.
Using this information to convince half castes of their Africaninity, or trying to get them to embrace Africa is useless. One day, they will need Africa and Africa will not show them love. We saw that with those savage Hyksos.
You know though, I can not blame half caste and Europeans. They have no history, other than relatively recent, so I guess it is flattering for them to want to still African history. With that said though, Africans need to start doing more field work and publishing and bypassing Western centered academic circles. I read in some study from Rice University, that something like 80% of Africa is still on taped, in terms of archeology. One researcher said when you fly over parts of Africa, you can see old stone cities from the plane, but because it is now over grown, you cant really get in and do research. Africans need to step up and research it. There also needs to be a full on effort to un mask what is lying under the sahara. I am convinced something marvelous is there.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by KING: What you written is nothing but True Zeiss. You see it around you with certain self hating Indians claiming anything other then there blackness. "No I am brown" I laugh at this because if it was the USA they would of went through the same things that happened to the Blacks and Latinos during the civil rights. Brainwashing is rife with Indians probably the most brainwashed people on this earth next to the white berbers. The good thing about Indians though is there are many who are trying to break the cycle of selfhate and you gotta commend them for trying because TRUTH IS that Indians shockingly ARE BLACK. Yeah lioness and her retarded Tut looks Indian was the dumbest thing I have read but it shows the Mentality of these people
Black Indians are not related to Africans in any significant way. They don't share significant DNA or historic link with black African people like Yoruba, Wolof, Dinka, Zulu, etc. At least not more than European people for example.
It's not about semantic. If we call black Indians populations, the A group and Sub-Saharan African populations the B group. We would see only limited DNA linkage between the A and B group and thus limited historical linkage. Black Indians never cluster with African people on autosomal genetic studies. Same thing with Berbers. If we call them the A group and Sub-Saharan Africans the B group. Then we would see limited DNA linkage between the A group and the B group thus limited historical linkage. Although Berber populations, even Berber with pale skin, are much closer to African than black Indians populations (due to higher level of admixture since they are geographically closer).
Obviously all those things have repercussion in the medical field since some diseases affect more some group of people who are genetically related than others.
But it also have repercussion in the historic/archaeological field. To know for example what part of the culture is related to shared origin (like archaeological assemblage, artifact like headrests,languages, etc) or to something else. Or simply to follow population movements along the years.
I just want to repeat that it's not about semantic or politic. Any citizen of an African country including Europeans, Arabs, Berbers or people of any origin have full ownership right on the continent. It's about tracing the true history of people and their linkage to one another. [/QB]
Listen man.
I said INDIANS ARE BLACK. They are. Could careless about there affiliation to Africans.
These people ARE BLACK: Africans, Indians, Fijians, Melanesian, Australian Aborigines, Malaysians, Original Hawaiians, Original Polynesians, Original Filipinos, Original Thais,.
Don't like it TOO Bad. Its Truth. Genes are genes son. ALL THESE PEOPLE WOULD OF SAT AT THE BACK OF THE BUS IN USA CUNTRY. Image is something that people are still stuck on. True people try to change that, sadly those who want to change that get shouted down and mocked by people who hang onto there color because aside from that, they see no value in there lifes.
Berbers get a wake up call when they go to France, Let me ask you this.
Are Africans and Berbers owners of Europe's continent?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Are Africans and Berbers owners of Europe's continent?
Of course. European people of African, Asian, Arab and Berber origin have full ownership right on the continent as any citizen of European countries.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by KING: Are Africans and Berbers owners of Europe's continent?
Of course. European people of African, Asian, Arab and Berber origin have full ownership right on the continent as any citizen of European countries.
I Like That
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Listen. We can disagree but we have to calm down.
Brada..you got this?
I rely on scientific data FIRST. Some may not like what the data shows but....
Keita agrees with me. All scientific data has supported what I said. European looking people have been on the continent of Africa from the very beginning. The anthropoligical and genetic data supports this...too bad.
Some of you are so dumb and can't see beyond your noses. Do you understand the premise of the Bekada study? I hate dumbing it down to my black brothas.
I will give you a hint - Bekada, Henn, etc most geneticist are trying to explain the presence of Berbers in North Africa. They are trying to give them a seat at the "Caucasian" table.
Bekada is trying to find the male conterpart of the supposedly "European" female that entered Africa 12000ya. They are caught in their web of lies and finding it difficult to get out.
Come on people think!!!!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
From TP. Caucasoids in SSA. You guys are believing the lie. That all SSA look alike.
In case you are not keeping up. Up to 5000BC all Europeans were black.
They are also admitting that light skin is new to the world. Notice that East Asians, Native americans(who are also light) have zero SLC45A2 mutation but Yurobans have the mutation. La Brana man did not carry the mutation. Put it together man....tic toc.
quote:"others like Predomost and to a lesser degree Grimaldi and Teviec, are more prognathic like Skhul 5."
--Marta Mirazón Lahr. 2005. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity:
Detailed information on metrics :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
. North Africans have a OLDER and more diverse clades of H/HV than Europeans.
No they don't.
Below, your source, it came from my posting but you misinterpret it >>
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Claudio Ottoni 2010
Indeed, Moroccans and Tunisians, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices.
________________________________________
^^^ this means Moroccans and Tunisians have the highest diversity of H >>> WITHIN AFRICA
but not the highest diversity of H in the world
the context of the quote:
An arrival from Iberia explains the extent of H1 variation observed in North African populations (Table 2). Indeed, Moroccans and Tunisians, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices. ( the consideration - H within North Africa )
Morocco and Tunisia have higher frequencies than Libya. Why? They are closer to Europe
further:
Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago,
^^^arrival time of hap H FROM Europe TO North Africa
It is thought to have evolved in the vicinity of the Near East ∼23,000–28,000 years ago, and to have spread into Europe ∼20,000 years ago.
Often xyyman cites articles and comes up with his won mis-conclusions
As expected, the North African-specific clades are characterized by younger ages ranging from about 3.8 to 6.7 kya for H1v, and from 2.1 to 7.9 kya for H1v1. The youngest clades were found to be H1w and H1x, with an age of about 0.8–1.1 kya.
So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.
* Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
Morocco
mtDNA
EU 34.9 ME 31.7 tot 66.6
Y DNA
EU 3.9 ME 9.4 tot 13.3
the question of primarily African is properly divided into maternal and paternal
As shown Moroccans are primarily non-African maternally and primarily African paternally
________________
Tunisians
mtDNA
EU 24.6 ME 36.69 tot 61.29
Y DNA
EU 1.7 ME 23.5 tot 25.2
____________________
LIBYA
mtDNA
EU 28.6 ME 36.8 tot 65.4
Y DNA
EU 2.4 ME 2.4 tot 4.8
______________________
and we needed an 9 page thread for this?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You are sneaky little punk aren't you? That is not the study I am referring to. "Pillars of Hercules" is my source.
On one hand Ottoni, Achilli etc uses coalescance age estimation and NOT genomic haplotypes. To come up with their conclusion. Diversity/Haplotypes trumps frequency and the erratic method of coalescence age estimation.
And it was cited in this thread'
We discussed this already.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You are sneaky little punk aren't you? That is not the study I am referring to. "Pillars of Hercules" is my source.
On one hand Ottoni, Achilli etc uses coalescance age estimation and NOT genomic haplotypes. To come up with their conclusion. Diversity/Haplotypes trumps frequency and the erratic method of coalescence age estimation.
And it was cited in this thread'
We discussed this already.
So your source that the greatest diversity in the world of Haplogoup H is in North Africa is the Pillars of Herculus ?
Somebody wrote it on the pillar?
Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa Hajer Ennafaa1
The haplogroup H represents 44% of the mtDNA variation in the Iberian Peninsula, but only 22% in the Near East. Likewise, this distribution still reaches 25% in North Africa, but drops to only 9% in the Arabian Peninsula.
That Palaeolithic expansion would explain the notorious presence of H1 and H3 detected mainly in the most North-western populations of North Africa and the decrease in their frequency eastwards. However, if this hypothesis held, the comparatively high diversity of H1 and H3 in North Africa would point to an important Palaeolithic gene flow from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa across the Strait of Gibraltar. On the contrary, a consensus exists regarding the Near East origin of the bulk of the Y-chromosome and mtDNA North African lineages. However, discrepancies still exists with respect to the time in which these settlements most probably occurred. In the first Y-chromosome pioneering studies of the region, a Palaeolithic settlement for the autochthonous E-M81 clade was hypothesized in accordance with the age proposed based on classical markers [30]. However, later studies have assigned this, and other subclades derived from E-M78, that are particularly abundant in North Africa, a Neolithic or even historic settlement age and a Near East or Northeast African source [63,31-34]. On the other hand, for those mtDNA haplogroups pre-eminent in North Africa, that have been analyzed at deep genomic and phylogeographic levels, such as U6 and M1, a Palaeolithic settlement and Middle East roots have been proposed [11,13,14]. From our data, it can be also deduced that the presence of the H1 and H3 subgroups in North Africa could have similar expansion times as in Europe and, therefore, a late Palaeolithic settlement in the region. Finally, it should be noted that the different levels of gene flow detected throughout the Strait of Gibraltar
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Clearly we can see that mtDNA haplogroups TUV are the product of back migration into Africa (a very long time ago). They are all descendants of the N haplogroup (and R) which originates in population who left Africa after the main OOA migration. Then migrated back into Africa a very long time ago. Then they admixed between themselves, with other (sub-Saharan) Africans and with Western Asians (Arabs). They obviously have ownership right on the continent (as any citizen of African country for that matter) but they are still the product of 3 different ancestral origin. European, Eurasian and African. A nice mix.
Using autosomal DNA they tend to cluster with Eurasian more. Same as culturally. If you ask them they would also say the same thing in general; They feel they are part of the Middle Eastern/Mediterranean cultural field.
Do you have anthropological and archeological evidence of these suppose back migrations?
Successes and failures of human dispersals from North Africa (2011)
Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages
(B) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, L5, L2, L3, M, and N in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies.
--Mary Katherine Gonder*, Holly M. Mortensen*, Floyd A. Reed*, Alexandra de Sousa†‡ and Sarah A. Tishkoff*
Hg N, see Fig.3:
--Tishkoff S A , M. K. Gonder, B. M. Henn, H. Mortensen, A. Knight, C. Gignoux, N. Fernandopulle, G. Lema, T. B. Nyambo, U. Ramakrishnan, et al.(2007).History of Click-Speaking Populations of Africa Inferred from mtDNA and Y Chromosome Genetic Variation. Mol. Biol. Evol., 24(10): 2180 - 2195.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Another way to kick the ball on the sideline. Avoiding all the argumentation above, preferring to talk about fluff like my name or ridiculous stuff like that.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hey dumbass
the idea was to start this page with direct geneticist raw data relevant to the thread's header
Since I disagree with him and kicked his ass with argumentation now he resorts to insults. Typical.
ES Tukuler: North Africans are mostly genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Actual North African people and Genetics: No we aren't.
Diop and other historians : No, they aren't.
That's odd, because the Moroccan Berbers I know claim indigenous situ to Northwest Africa. This includes the light skinned as well.
quote:The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago
--Frigi et al.
quote:No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
[...]
Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote:Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
quote: “..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Sour grapes and knashing of teeth can't alter the statistical fact of Bekada's raw data.
So go on and whine, whine, whine. Just remember YOU were the one who blurted out "Berbers are not primarily African" without gender qualification. You could've easily retracted or precisioned yourself. Instead you resort to face saving tactics because for you it's more important to be right than to learn.
Bekada is not the be all and the end all. We will go on examining raw data from other recent studies for revelations. We will accept their geographic hg assignments as given nor quibble over sampling bias so to let the professional academic population geneticists stats speak without spin or interpretation.
At the end we will see what the combined overall results conclude. Whatever they come down to we will accept them and not whine over if they uphold a priori personal opinion.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Keep things in perspective, yes, the master has made valuable contribution,, but ARTU and TyepZeiss has made contributions also.
ARTU was the one who posted those never before scene images of AEians. Granted he may be a little niave and is getting ahead of himself thinking he has grasp on genetics. But...his heart is in the right place.
Please...no short memories.
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
Consider the source. Although I tried giving ARtU benefit of doubt he's just the Lioness' equivalent.
All ES knows who inputted Hawass' data into popSTR and vindicated the results obtained by DNAtribes that everybody can still read here with back filler here
But none of that matters to a fool.
All I can say Takruri is that you have made more valuable contributions to these forums then the 2 people you are debeating right now and don't let the ignorance get to you. Learning a lot just from your posts also notice the divide and conquer bull that some use in using Diop to promote there ideology.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Tukular version>
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
I haven't checked all the figures. They nearly the same. I did find this error
Bekada
MOROCCO Y DNA NA 73.9 EA 5.8 WA 7.0
tot 86.7
Tukular tot 89.7
Neverthless there is only a few points difference, Tukular has added mt and Y and called it uniparental
____________________________________
The berbers are part Eurasian and this goes back to prehistoric times. But according to these Bekada figures, on the whole Maghrebians while part Eurasian the are primarily in the majority sense, African, primarily African Diop, Clyde, Amun Ra and lioness are wrong.
_________________________________
looking at some of the popualtion figures:
Egypt 84,605,000
Algeria 38,295,000
Morocco 32,950,000
Tunisia 10,889,000
Libya 6,323,000
Mauritania 3,461,000
Western Sahara 650,000
However the berbers are probably even more African than the population of these countries on the whole.
The thing that is really weighing the scales toward Africa is E-M81
highest E-M81 frequencies
Chenini–Douiret, Tunisia, Berbers, 100%
Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%
Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%
Tunisia/Bou Omrane 87.5
Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%
^^^^ I invite people to try to find out what these people look like. There is a point at which you take what you know about the DNA and check out the actual people. Those particular Tunisian groups are perhaps the most African
However look how they look. It doesn't matter to the DNA, some of them are near 100% Y DNA African add to that mt DNA which might be around 40%. That's primarily African and these are Tunisans not the Tuareg further south
Revisit the Siwa, they are perhaps an outlier berber group and have nearly no M81 (E1b1b1b) But they have, according to the below chart B2a1a_____28.0 and R1b1*_____26.9
That African B is not found in the other Berber groups, nor much if any R1b1* They have a bit of J also Some of the Hap B input is probably Sudanese.
This fits with the Bekada in that Egyptians are primarily Eurasian --However Siwa are a very small population within Egypt, they are probably more African than the average Egyptian, although less so than other berbers. But to complicate things more direct to an East African component
______________________________
How do we look at Haplogroup E-M81 ??
wiki:
Arredi et al. 2004 believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic "demic diffusion" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 may also have been carried into its currently most common region together with a form of proto-Afroasiatic. On the basis of these possible links, the men who brought E-M81 into northwestern Africa may therefore have come from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". But there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in [North Africa, or possibly as far south as the Horn of Africa
__________________
It's disputed by Arredi however evidence is weighing toward East African origin
Not every Tunisian berber group has M81 this high:
Chenini–Douiret, Tunisia, Berbers, 100%
Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%
Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%
^^^^ but if M81 is East African derived from M35 it might be reasonable to expect these groups to look largely East African
Here's the thing>
If M81 came from the Horn descending from M35 we can look at the chart for E-M35 that's formerly known as E3b aka E1b1b1
Why isn't that much higher in Siwa? 6.5
Here's the Arredi piece, juts posting for the alternate point of view, I don't necessirly agree
We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
In conclusion, we propose that the Y-chromosomal genetic structure observed in North Africa is mainly the result of an expansion of early food-producing societies. Moreover, following Arioti and Oxby (1997), we speculate that the economy of those societies relied initially more on herding than on agriculture, because pastoral economies probably supported lower numbers of individuals, thus favoring genetic drift, and showed more mobility than agriculturalists, thus allowing gene flow. Some authors believe that languages families are unlikely to be >10 KY old and that their diffusion was associated with the diffusion of agriculture (Diamond and Bellwood 2003). Since most of the languages spoken in North Africa and in nearby parts of Asia belong to the Afro-Asiatic family (Ruhlen 1991), this expansion could have involved people speaking a proto–Afro-Asiatic language. These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.
__________________________
On the other hand....
Deep Into the Roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A Genetic Survey of Their Paternal Heritage
Claudio Ottoni et al. 2011
Analysis of the microsatellite variation in E1b1a8 and E1b1b1b (Fig. 2a,b) provides more clues about the history of these haplogroups in the Libyan Tuareg. The high diversity of E1b1b1b as opposed to the sharp homogeneity of E1b1a points to a more complex history of E1b1b1b in the Libyan Tuareg, suggesting that this might represent the original paternal genetic matrix of the Tuareg villages in Fezzan. More information about the origin of the Tuareg E1b1b1b chromosomes is given by the analysis of STR variation in Northern African populations (Supporting Information Fig. S1). It is likely that most of the Tuareg E1b1b1b Y-chromosomes (i.e., 13 out of 23, 57%) are related to an expansion event that took place about 2.6 kya in an ancestral population inhabiting a region between Tunisia and the Central Sahara. This event may have coincided with an expansion that led to the formation of derived Tunisian and Central Saharan populations, with the latter, in turn, contributing to the paternal genetic pool of the Tuareg villages in Fezzan.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel
In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.
act The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ~9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ~10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ~6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^
Nevertheless it is reasonable to suggest the berbers are primarily African.
My question is who is more similar to North African M81 carriers>
Southern and Central Europeans
or
East Africans?
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I haven't checked all the figures. They nearly the same. I did find this error
Bekada
MOROCCO Y DNA NA 73.9 EA 5.8 WA 7.0
tot 86.7
Tukular tot 89.7
How did Jimi put it? If 6 was 9?
Wish more people would cross examine my stuff for inaccuracies. It's a boon.
I will have to recalculate everything and wait a day later and do it again so as to leave time enough to approach the data fresh. Until then disregard my table.
One thing I miss about old school anthropology is the photos. I know there are too many samples involved for geneticists to do that but still representative types would be nice. I think it'd help show SNPs and STRs are not necessarily predictive of a general expected phenotypical look.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The thing that is really weighing the scales toward Africa is E-M81
highest E-M81 frequencies
Chenini–Douiret, Tunisia, Berbers, 100%
Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%
Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%
Tunisia/Bou Omrane 87.5
Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%
Those frequencies should not be aligned with Bekada who gives her own Y freq aggregates for Tunisia, Algeria, et al., not skewed to a bunch of individual Tunisian sites and the Mzabis only.
The primary Berber Y chromosome is E-M81 that's why it's well known as the "Berber specific marker," agreeing with my idea that the Berbers are primarily local African. Local = north.
And, yes, E-M81 is the dominating Y haplogroup and it is African and what's wrong with that? Just as J1-M267 is the weightiest AfroAsian Y and ranks with the other non-African nrY HGs.
So what?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
OK, here is my corrected table analyzing Bekada's Table 2 for African vs Eurasian frequencies with my North Africa, Berber, and core Maghreb breakdowns.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, here is my corrected table analyzing Bekada's Table 2 for African vs Eurasian frequencies with my North Africa, Berber, and core Maghreb breakdowns.
More interesting stuff,
quote: In addition, Bayesian skyline analysis of 328 complete L3 sequences and founder analysis of 2,359 L3 hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) sequences enabled us to infer both local demographic expansions and migrations within Africa.
[...]
The diversification of L3 in Eastern Africa began early, as demonstrated by the ages of L3a and L3h (fig. 1), both of which are virtually specific to this region (fig. 3A). The BSP for Eastern Africa (supplementary fig. S6, Supplementary Material online) alone rises most steeply only after 40 ka (table 1), but the plot shows a progressive increase from before 50 ka. Accordingly, the scan of HVS-I diversity of founder L3 lineages in Eastern Africa showed a peak at ∼58.8 ka (corresponding to nearly three quarters of the L3 data in Eastern Africa; table 2), followed by a second peak at ∼1.8 ka.
While there's great fanfare over the Eurasian mtDNA in pre-Holocene Maghreb, not only is L played down it has been outright denied as a Maurusian founder. That lie must be corrected.
L3 was definitely in 12k Taforalt (Kefi). Frigi says it was in Tunisia since 20k. That's at Maurusian industry beginnings.
Cerezo (2012) posits three L clades for Europe spanning LUP to early mid- Holocene.
Some propose direct migration from West Africa. Alternately, they could've been in North Africa, especially considering pre-Green Sahara climatic condition obstacles.
: Ibero-Maurusian
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No L migrated from SSA to Southern Europe bypassing the Magreb. Lol! Even Achilli et al 2012 admitted its presence in Europe at least late Holocene. Why are you losing sleep arguing with a nobody?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Who's arguing? It's called knowledge flow.
You know how assumptions go. All L must be SSA sub-Saharan African. No thought some is SSA supra-Saharan African. L3 is doubtlessly Pan-African.
At least they're not making the old homebody non-explorer assumption about "black Africans."
Straight travel from sub-Sahara Africa to Europe means they had to know that a Europe was even there for them to go to.
But why would pre-Holocenes settle Europe and never do the same in the Maghreb? How'd they bypass Sahara and Maghreb without Senegal Airlines?
And indeed why assume Europe bound L ancestresses were even from that far south? For the early to mid Holocene era why not South Morocco/West Sahara/ North Mauritania or even somewhere in Algeria as the starting terminal?.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Agreed. SSA is a new term. Occupation was probably mostly in the Sahara.
Quote: "Straight travel from sub-Sahara Africa to Europe means they had to know that a Europe was even there for them to go to."
I am not sure they "knew" Europe was there. But remember they were Hunter gatherers. Maybe they did.
It was more about hunting and gathering food.
If you follow the recent discovery of Loschbour man, the hunter gather. These migrations take 1000's of years over several generations. New Migrants bringing new culture and customs. Stuttgart woman being one of the most advance. Note her burial setup is very advance and grave goods were very prominent. Unlike Motola man..with heads on a stick.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Turkuler: berbers are primarily African
xyyman: berbers are completely African
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
But Clyde when you look at the frequencies of these haplogoups in bebers the case could be made that many berber groups are half or more African. Diop didn't have access to more recent research so not everything he said is necessarilly right
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid
The geostrategic location of North Africa as a crossroad between three continents and as a stepping-stone outside Africa has evoked anthropological and genetic interest in this region. Numerous studies have described the genetic landscape of the human population in North Africa employing paternal, maternal, and biparental molecular markers. However, information from these markers which have different inheritance patterns has been mostly assessed independently, resulting in an incomplete description of the region. In this study, we analyze uniparental and genome-wide markers examining similarities or contrasts in the results and consequently provide a comprehensive description of the evolutionary history of North Africa populations. Our results show that both males and females in North Africa underwent a similar admixture history with slight differences in the proportions of admixture components. Consequently, genome-wide diversity show similar patterns with admixture tests suggesting North Africans are a mixture of ancestral populations related to current Africans and Eurasians with more affinity towards the out-of-Africa populations than to sub-Saharan Africans. We estimate from the paternal lineages that most North Africans emerged ~15,000 years ago during the last glacial warming and that population splits started after the desiccation of the Sahara. Although most North Africans share a common admixture history, the Tunisian Berbers show long periods of genetic isolation and appear to have diverged from surrounding populations without subsequent mixture. On the other hand, continuous gene flow from the Middle East made Egyptians genetically closer to Eurasians than to other North Africans. We show that genetic diversity of today's North Africans mostly captures patterns from migrations post Last Glacial Maximum and therefore may be insufficient to inform on the initial population of the region during the Middle Paleolithic period. ___________________________________________________
There are several studies suggesting North Africans are primarily Eurasians, this, the Bekada, Henn, so does it all come down to just haplogroup frequencies and they are making wrong conclusions about the data? And while M81 is African,
Published online 2004 March 24. PMCID: PMC1181964 Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,1
E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% (Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study), but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations (31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]); in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%–4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested (Bosch et al. 2001) that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. (2001) in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula: in our data set, 8 of 15 E-M78 chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe (see above). Second, and more importantly, the degree of the African contribution is highly variable across different Iberian populations: the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin (E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81) was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos (table 1). A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos (18%) and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians (17%) has also recently been reported (Maca-Meyer et al. 2003). Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.
_________________________________________
The North African haplogorup E-M81 is more common in certain European populations than in Sub Saharan Africa which has virtually none 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria (Cruciani 2004) above. 24% (Maca-Meyer 2003+Scozzari 2001), http://discovercantabria.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/history-of-cantabria/ The first written accounts of Cantabria come in 200BC when it is believed the people who lived there fought with the carthaginians against the Romans during the Second Punic War. The Cantabri, tribal people who lived in the region, were used as mercenaries in many wars and were known as being fierce fighters. In 29BC the Cantabri were forced to fight to protect their land from Roman invasion, but were outnumbered.
The Middle Ages
After the fall of the Roman Empire, the Cantabri regained independence during the Visigoths reign until 714, when the Muslim Moors invaded the area. The Moors had started their campaign of Spanish invasion three years earlier and were slowly capturing the Iberian peninsula. The Berbers and Arabs took the Cantabrian capital of Amaya, which is now in modern Burgos, (Castilla y Leon) forcing the Cantabri to ally themselves with the Kingdom of Asturias, which was still under visigoth rule. The invaders struggled to subdue the combined strength of Cantabrians and Asturians in the Cantabrian mountains and their defeat at the Battle of Covadonga in Asturias signalled the start of the reconquista of Spain.
The Moors controlled the majority of the Iberian peninsula, apart from the Cantabrian coast and its mountains. Christians flocked to the region to escape Muslim domination and slowly Alfonso I and Alfonso II started to recapture lands from the North African occupiers.
Ann Hum Genet. 2003 Jul;67(Pt 4):329-39. Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA characterization of
Pasiegos, a human isolate from Cantabria (Spain).
Maca-Meyer N, Sánchez-Velasco P, Flores C, Larruga JM, González AM, Oterino A, Leyva-Cobián F. Author information Abstract Mitochondrial DNA sequences and Y chromosome haplotypes were characterized in Pasiegos, a human isolate from Cantabria, and compared with those of other Cantabrian and neighbouring Northern Spain populations. Cantabria appears to be a genetically heterogeneous community. Whereas Lebaniegos do not differ from their eastern Basque and western Asturian and Galician neighbours, Pasiegos and other non-Lebaniego Cantabrians show significant differences with all of them. Pasiegos are peculiar for their high frequencies of Y chromosomal markers (E-M81) with North African assignation, and Y chromosomal (R-SRY2627) and mtDNA (V, I, U5) markers related to northern European populations. This dual geographic contribution is more in agreement with the complex demographic history of this isolate, as opposed to recent drift effects. The high incidence in Cantabrians with pre-V and V mtDNA haplotypes, considered as a signal of Postglacial recolonization in Europe from south-western refugees, points to such refugees as a better candidate population than Basques for this expansion. However, this does not discount a conjoint recolonization.
Compared to other North European populations they also share high frequencies of R-SRY10831b Y-chromosome lineage and of mtDNA lineages V and I. For the African input, it is tempting to propose an asymmetric sexual contribution in which males predominate. Although it could be true, this supposition should be regarded with caution, since the majority of North African mtDNA lineages are also present in Europe (Rando et al. 1998). There are, currently, two theories to explain this not negligible African input on the Iberian peninsula. For some, it is mainly the result of the historic Islamic occupation (Bosch et al. 2001; Pereira et al. 2000), whereas others, without totally denying this possibility, favour the bulk of this influence as having prehistoric roots (Gómez-Casado et al. 2000; González et al. 2003). If the sexual asymmetry could be demonstrated the former hypothesis would be strengthened. In any case, the fact that this African influence similarly affects other Cantabrians and the lack of assigned Near East lineages in Pasiegos, rules out the hypothesis that this isolate was specifically founded by Moorish and Jewish refugees. The second component points to some kind of relationship between Cantabrians and Northern Europeans. It could be explained as a result of the well documented waves of Northern tribes that, throughout the Pyrenees, have repeatedly invaded the Iberian Peninsula since prehistoric times. The addition of data from a small sample of Pasiegos, previously published (Scozzari et al. 2001), increases the frequency of the North African marker E-M81T to 24% in the total sample.
In the light of our results, this focus could well be displaced to Cantabria. Nevertheless, a more recent northern invasion bringing V sequences that mixed with a recipient Cantabrian population harbouring mainly pre-V sequences is also a plausible alternative. The most probable hypothesis about the origin of Pasiegos, which also holds for other Cantabrians, is that they are the result of an ancient indigenous substrate more or less mixed with more recent immigrants. The other possibility, that the high frequencies found in Cantabrians for lineages with dual geographic origins have been the result of genetic drift, is weakened because it happens in outbred and inbred samples, and it is recurrent in independent male and female genetic lineages as well as in autosomal markers (Esteban et al. 1998; Sánchez-Velasco et al. 1999).
Even today, Cantabrians (the Pasiego included, Lebaniegos excluded), at the North of the Iberian Peninsula, seem to be a genetically well differentiated community, as deduced from uniparental and autosomal (Esteban et al. 1998; Sánchez-Velasco et al. 2003) markers, perhaps to a higher degree than their neighbours, the Basques, who are the best known European isolate on linguistic grounds.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Before things go too far astray I'll put up another uniparental study analysis though I haven't "Painted" the text yet.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
I've also included Ennafaa's F4 even though I posted it in a thread from a year ago. At a glance. The pie slices detail the haplogroups and one can readily delineate the two major originating geographies Africa and Eurasia clearly enough.
Ennafaa recognizes a subclade may be of a different geography than its parent clade or that clade's upstream haplogroup(s).
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Ennafaa's
* U6 & M1 _____ as African * E-M96 & E-M35 as African * H/HV/V ______ as western EurAsian * P-M45 _______ as western EurAsian
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each selected African nation and views of them as
* a Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core "horns of the Maghreb" subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
please excuse this format until I fix it later
code:
Ennafaa 2011 TS5 mtDNA & TS6 nrY geo-freqs
mtDNA nrY Chrom uniparentals maternal paternal overall AF UA AF UA AF UA
MOR 38.6 61.5 85.9 14.3 62.3 37.9
TUN 45.8 54.0 72.2 27.8 59.0 40.9
LIB 38.0 62.2 91.5 8.5 64.8 35.4
EGY 43.5 56.5 41.5 58.4 42.5 54.5
NA 41.5 58.6 72.8 27.3 57.2 43.0
BRBR 40.8 59.2 83.2 16.9 62.0 38.1
MGRB 42.2 57.8 79.1 21.1 60.7 39.5
AF = African - South of Sahara; Sahara; North of Sahara UA = EurAsian - Out of Africa; not continental African
NA = MOR TUN LIB EGY BRBR = MOR TUN LIB MGRB = MOR TUN
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
So Clyde, you don't contribute to my thread but you steal my synopsis distort it and run off to Dienekes with it.
This is what I wrote not your bullshit distortion claiming M1 U6 and L3e5 as European to fit your uninformed outdated anti-Berber ideology.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's
* H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 ___ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Since you follow this thread you know, because you have been shown, that today's North African people of Berber background are primarily African per their uniparental DNA as witnessed in population genetics reports -- even by "Berber" scientists themselves -- and are not Europeans like you wish.
The sad part is your version of my synopsis presents it as Berber DNA when it is only the haplogroups most likely to be controversial in assignment and I accepted them as Bekada ranked them to demonstrate that even by Eurocentric measures the raw data still shows Berbers are primarily African.
They are what Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" type.
They are blackest south toward the Sahel and are whitest nearer the Mediterranean.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Careful perusal of Ennafaa 2011 demanded I redo the math.
there is a sub-Saharan Africa contribution comprising all L mtDNA lineages (34.1%) and the Y-chromosome haplogroups A, B, E-M96, E-M2 and E-M35 (16.3%). There is also a native North African component represented by the U6 and M1 mtDNA haplogroups (8.2%) and by the Y-chromosome E-M81 haplogroup (48.2%). The resting lineages have to be assigned to a more generalized western Eurasian origin.
Ennafaa assigned mtDNA N and nrY E-M78 as EurAsian so I had to transfer them from my African column and recalculate each nation, the groupings, and the overalls.
That precision refined one of my previous conclusions.
That, and the format fix, coming up next.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Ennafaa's
* U6 & M1 ________ as African * E-M96 & E-M35 __ as African * H/HV/V & N _____ as western EurAsian * P-M45 & E-M78 __ as western EurAsian
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
Below are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each selected African nation and views of them as
* a Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core "horns of the Maghreb" subset.
Because the highest Med Afr freq 50.9 is less than 51 the first set supports Berbers not primarliy African. 2nd & 3rd sets support Berbers are primarily African.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Wait, E3 originates in Africa, hence E3b originates there as well according to that theory of human movements. But of course these clowns never stop making up circular arguments. Put it this way. E3 is African daddy. He has a kid E3b. E3b is still African, I don't care if he hopped on a plane, went to Mars and married some martians. Those martian genes don't change E3b from being African..... but lets continue.
So they can say something silly like In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78\ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
Here is the key. They are saying that E3b clearly originates in Africa and that E3b had a bunch of kids all over East Africa, North Africa and Arabia. These kids began to move around and into Europe. But for some reason, according to this conclusion, instead of the E3b grandchild M81 getting into North Africa by direct route from East Africa and across the Mediterranean into Europe (the most logical conclusion), these guys claim that it went on a circular route around the Levant and through the Balkans into Europe and then BACK into Africa, and that along the way, E3b became NOT African.... It is European now. Some of E3bs children did a Michael Jackson on us.
Now given that the darkest shade of green is on the coast of Southern Europe, what does that tell you? Obviously this gene was introduced to Europe from Africa.....
Based on what I see, there was a migration of related E3b populations out of East Africa, across the desert and into North Africa between 10kya and 5kya and some of these folks went into Europe, indtroducing M34 into Europe. The rest went further West into the Maghreb and branched into M81. All one family of Africans not some Europeans carrying an African lineage, basically Aboriginal North African types as seen in North Africa to this day and even in the old post cards.
These people are simply desperate liars who want to pretend that E3b lineages in North Africa came from Europe and not Africa which is silly.
And the funny part is even they know this is B.S. as even their own artists have been fascinated with these black beauties over the last few centuries.
Orientalist Joze Cruz Herrera (Spain). Do a search and see all the images of North African women, looking like Gypsies... And it is not ironic that most of these artworks are in private collections.... That is where most of the good stuff is.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
So Clyde, you don't contribute to my thread but you steal my synopsis distort it and run off to Dienekes with it.
This is what I wrote not your bullshit distortion claiming M1 U6 and L3e5 as European to fit your uninformed outdated anti-Berber ideology.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's
* H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 ___ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Since you follow this thread you know, because you have been shown, that today's North African people of Berber background are primarily African per their uniparental DNA as witnessed in population genetics reports -- even by "Berber" scientists themselves -- and are not Europeans like you wish.
The sad part is your version of my synopsis presents it as Berber DNA when it is only the haplogroups most likely to be controversial in assignment and I accepted them as Bekada ranked them to demonstrate that even by Eurocentric measures the raw data still shows Berbers are primarily African.
They are what Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" type.
They are blackest south toward the Sahel and are whitest nearer the Mediterranean.
It is no secret that I do not accept the Berbers as Africans.
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
OK
So why not write all about that here in my thread?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
lioness posts: There are several studies suggesting North Africans are primarily Eurasians, this, the Bekada, Henn, so does it all come down to just haplogroup frequencies and they are making wrong conclusions about the data?
--------------------------------- ------
Yawn, as already shown numerous times in other threads the so-called "Eurasian" veneer is heavily a product of sampling on the Arabized coastal Mediterranean. WHen a fuller geographic picture of "North Africa" is undertaken, the patterns that emerge are quite different.
The North African haplogorup E-M81 is more common in certain European populations than in Sub Saharan Africa which has virtually none..
^^DOuble yawn. 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria (Cruciani 2004) above. 24% (Maca-Meyer 2003+Scozzari 2001),
Pereira et al. 2010 report high levels amongst Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina Faso, and 81.8% from Gosi in Mali. (Pereira et al. (2010), "Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel", European Journal of Human Genetics 18 (8): 915–923)
Note than Burkina Faso is "sub Saharan" making one of the highest concentrations of E-M81 in the world, "sub-Saharan." Gosi is located virtually on the Saharan border, in the borderlands actually. A few years ago, before the desert shifted south it would have been fully "sub-Saharan"- again with one of the the highest concentration of E-M81, far exceeding any "EUrasian" location.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Kayble are the largest berber group
KAYBLE
Y-Dna
E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%),
R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2) [Adams et al. 2008]
J1 (15.78%),
F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% )
and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%). [Arredi 2004]
________________
MtDNA
H (32.23%),
U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6),
preHV (3.23%),
preV (4.84%),
V (4.84%), T* (3.23%),
J* (3.23%),
L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%),
X (3.23%),
M1 (3.23%),
N (1.61%)
R (3.23%).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
population density map for zarahan
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
But that doesn't change the fact that the highest concentration of E-M81 is located virtually in a "sub-Saharan" location in Mali, near Burkina Faso, a lot more than any "Eurasian" location.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK
So why not write all about that here in my thread?
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] But that doesn't change the fact that the highest concentration of E-M81 is located virtually in a "sub-Saharan" location in Mali, near Burkina Faso, a lot more than any "Eurasian" location.
Yes frequencies of M81 near 100% in some Tunisian populations, that's inside Africa and outside Africa the highest frequencies outside Africa are 24-41% Pasiegos from Cantabria, less than half
What is your source on "the highest concentration of E-M81 is located in Mali?
This is what native people of Mali look like:
____________________________________
Tuaregs look like some native Malian (the first man below) but many also look mulatto and you can also see the difference in Tuareg DNA compared to non-Tuareg Malian DNA Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] But that doesn't change the fact that the highest concentration of E-M81 is located virtually in a "sub-Saharan" location in Mali, near Burkina Faso, a lot more than any "Eurasian" location.
Yes frequencies of M81 near 100% in some Tunisian populations, that's inside Africa and outside Africa the highest frequencies outside Africa are 24-41% Pasiegos from Cantabria, less than half
What is your source on "the highest concentration of E-M81 is located in Mali?
This is what native people of Mali look like:
____________________________________
Tuaregs look like some native Malian (the first man below) but many also look mulatto and you can also see the difference in Tuareg DNA compared to non-Tuareg Malian DNA
Man lioness, still stuck on the Looks of people, WHY.
The Uldemne of cameroon, Look different then most europeans, yet they have the highest concentration of R.
The Tuareg DNA is majority different not because they ain't west African, but that these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
When they saw that majority of these Tuareg Genes were STILL overwhelmingly African and not just African, but WEST AFRICAN, all of an sudden we have e1b1b1b1b1b1bcontinued b1b1b1b1ba nonsense.
Why you always post this crap without thinking these euros are trying to not put europeans in Africa, but FORCE europeans in Africa. Enter the slavs.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
The Tuareg DNA is majority different not because they ain't west African, but that these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
Stop making up stuff
also some of their ancestry is straight haired Arab, look into the mtDNA of the Tuareg and stop getting emotional
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
So Clyde, you don't contribute to my thread but you steal my synopsis distort it and run off to Dienekes with it.
This is what I wrote not your bullshit distortion claiming M1 U6 and L3e5 as European to fit your uninformed outdated anti-Berber ideology.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's
* H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 ___ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Since you follow this thread you know, because you have been shown, that today's North African people of Berber background are primarily African per their uniparental DNA as witnessed in population genetics reports -- even by "Berber" scientists themselves -- and are not Europeans like you wish.
The sad part is your version of my synopsis presents it as Berber DNA when it is only the haplogroups most likely to be controversial in assignment and I accepted them as Bekada ranked them to demonstrate that even by Eurocentric measures the raw data still shows Berbers are primarily African.
They are what Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" type.
They are blackest south toward the Sahel and are whitest nearer the Mediterranean.
It is no secret that I do not accept the Berbers as Africans.
.
Yet they were...?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
I also still see the character Lioness still having a problem with Berbers having a connection with Africans...
*Sigh*
When will this Berber war end. For one the Berber language is African in origin.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ Clyde says Vandals because Diop said it in the 70s (earlier in the thread I have the Diop quotes up)
typeZeiss might say European slaves of the Barbary
(mixed with Africans)
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by KING:
The Tuareg DNA is majority different not because they ain't west African, but that these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
Stop making up stuff
also some of their ancestry is straight haired Arab, look into the mtDNA of the Tuareg and stop getting emotional
So I'm making up stuff about doctored studies? So then why did we go from E3a, E3b, EM81 etc to E1b1b1b1b1b1b1b1b11b1b1b1b1b1b11b1ba etc.
Please don't tell me "Oh they did the same to other haplgroups also" Never heard of coverup...Shoot one guy then befriend the other yet your still an criminal.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Y chromosomal haplogroup profiles in north Africa aren't biologically informative, only historically. Not biologically informative in the sense that other AIMS do not corroborate the picture that the Berber Y chromosomal profile paints. So, for instance, we don't see a preponderance of East African specific ancestry in Berber populations in analyses that employ other (non Y chromosomal) AIMs. Historically informative in the sense their Y chromosomal profiles at least allow us to infer that Egyptian and/or Sudanese E-M81 males migrated there and somehow had such an impact that they artificially deflated Upper Palaeolithic Magrebi Y chromosomal predecessors, which in all likelihood included T-M184, as evinced by the Y chromosomal profiles of Tibbou and Fulani populations whose ancestors likely had contact with these pre-Berber speakers.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: So I'm making up stuff about doctored studies? So then why did we go from E3a, E3b, EM81 etc to E1b1b1b1b1b1b1b1b11b1b1b1b1b1b11b1ba etc.
Please don't tell me "Oh they did the same to other haplgroups also" Never heard of coverup...Shoot one guy then befriend the other yet your still an criminal. [/QB]
Do you realize that's just the Y DNA?
Try looking at Tuareg maternal DNA, mtDNA
there's two parts to this you must realize, mommie and poppie
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
"Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, for instance, we don't see a preponderance of East African specific ancestry in Berber populations in analyses that employ other AIMs. Historically informative in the sense their Y chromosomal profiles at least allow us to infer that Egyptian and/or Sudanese E-M81 males migrated there and somehow managed to artificially deflate Upper Palaeolithic Magrebi Y chromosomal predecessors, which in all likelihood included T-M184, as evinced by the Y chromosomal profiles of Tibbou and Fulani populations who likely had contact with these pre-Berber speakers. [/QB]
Siwa berbers of Egypt are noted for their lack of M81
although the do have other E frequencies
Kujanova et al. (2009) found M81 in 28.6% (10 out of 35 men) in El-Hayez in the Western desert in Egypt
Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each target African group and views of them as * a Northern Africa superset * a Tamazgha subset, and * a Maghrebi core subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
This posting updates or replaces my comments on quoted Bekada non-raw data text statements made in earlier posts to this thread.
Wow...When did this come out and how recent is it? I never heard of this.
Again good job buddy.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Wow...When did this come out and how recent is it? I never heard of this.
Again good job buddy.
read the thread from the beginning the Bekada link is there.
The above chart was created by Tukuler based on Bakada. He consolidated "North Africa" and "Sub Saharan African" as simply "African" and added the term "uniparental"
To an extent it's fair but it's his format
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
The above chart was created by Tukuler based on Bakada. He consolidated "North Africa" and "Sub Saharan African" as simply "African" and added the term "uniparental". He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
Do you agree? From your last comment it seems maybe not
(top of previous page shows hg breakdown)
also U is funny in that U5 is considered Eurasian while U6 is considered North African
Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Lioness
Oh okay.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
I don't know if that's what alTakruri meant to say. I didn't follow the entire thread but I get the impression that he was replying to your haplogroup based argument that, in terms of haplogroups composition, Berbers aren't primarily African. I agree with alTakruri's argument that, in terms of haplogroups, many Berber speakers could be primarily African. On the other hand, the literature has shown that haplogroups can be notoriously poor proxies for gauging ancestral components. Especially when you see populations with just a single haplogroup. If you know how haplogroup profiles emerge, you can't sit there and maintain that samples which are made up of one, two, or even three Y chromosomal haplogroups (e.g. many Maghrebi populations) provide reliable insight into populations structure.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
I don't know if that's what alTakruri meant to say. I didn't follow the entire thread but I get the impression that he was replying to your haplogroup based argument that, in terms of haplogroups composition, Berbers aren't primarily African. I agree with alTakruri's argument that, in terms of haplogroups, many Berber speakers could be primarily African. On the other hand, the literature has shown that haplogroups can be notoriously poor proxies for gauging ancestral components. Especially when you see populations with just a single haplogroup. If you know how haplogroup profiles emerge, you can't sit there and say populations with one or two, or even three Y chromosomal haplogroups (many Berber speakers) can provide insight into populations structure.
well then how do you go about determining if these berber groups are primarily African?
A lot of them look mulatto and the DNA supports that. I suppose "primarily African" means Africa "wins" if 51% or more of their ancestry is African
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^That's a whole 'nother can of worms which I'm discussing right now in the facebook group. Let's just say that recent research is showing that much of what gets assigned as "West Eurasian ancestry" in a lot of genome-wide studies is, in fact, African. There are sound scientific reasons for why this is happening, which no one seems to be discussing. What I can say is that this seems to be related to Sforza's observation that Europeans are 1/3 African and 2/3s East Asian. Until this is properly teased out, how much of the Maghrebi genome is African on top of the ~10-30% that typically gets assigned to them, remains an open question.
quote:Estimates of divergence times between European–African and East Asian–African populations are inconsistent with its simplest manifestation: a single dispersal from the continent followed by a split into Western and Eastern Eurasian branches. Rather, population divergence times are consistent with substantial ancient gene flow to the proto-European population after its divergence with proto-East Asians, suggesting distinct, early dispersals of modern H. sapiens from Africa.
"Proto-European" here INCLUDES West Asia BTW.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: "Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northwest African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: "Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northwest African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
.
Just finished reading the story of Siwa.
Those Siwa were smart to ask for 3 days to think it over. Also so the Siwans to you Dr. Winter are not truly African even though they carry ancient African genes?
How I feel about the Siwan is that The Creator protected them from invasion by Cambyses for an reason and I think its to keep there treasures intact for memory of how life was back in those days. The persians were bloody men who did many damaging things To Egypt when they came. Now the Arabs are doing there own nonsense. The past is something to learn from so we don't repeat it. I truly believe that there is COUNTLESS treasures in the Sahara that The Creator hid for an reason. whether its found or not, is up to brave people who buck the system and the locals who want to know there past.
All I wonder is why the Egyptian dead are so disrepected to lay in museums for all people to see them.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: "Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northwest African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
.
Just finished reading the story of Siwa.
Those Siwa were smart to ask for 3 days to think it over. Also so the Siwans to you Dr. Winter are not truly African even though they carry ancient African genes?
How I feel about the Siwan is that The Creator protected them from invasion by Cambyses for an reason and I think its to keep there treasures intact for memory of how life was back in those days. The persians were bloody men who did many damaging things To Egypt when they came. Now the Arabs are doing there own nonsense. The past is something to learn from so we don't repeat it. I truly believe that there is COUNTLESS treasures in the Sahara that The Creator hid for an reason. whether its found or not, is up to brave people who buck the system and the locals who want to know there past.
All I wonder is why the Egyptian dead are so disrepected to lay in museums for all people to see them.
As you can see from the Statement above the I am talking about the original Siwans. The Berbers are recent immigrants as noted by the Siwan Berbers themselves.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^That's a whole 'nother can of worms which I'm discussing right now in the facebook group. Let's just say that recent research is showing that much of what gets assigned as "West Eurasian ancestry" in a lot of genome-wide studies is, in fact, African. There are sound scientific reasons for why this is happening, which no one seems to be discussing. What I can say is that this seems to be related to Sforza's observation that Europeans are 1/3 African and 2/3s East Asian. Until this is properly teased out, how much of the Maghrebi genome is African on top of the ~10-30% that typically gets assigned to them, remains an open question.
You are making two points which lead to opposite conclusions. First you are saying the African component in a haplogroup frequency could be a product of artificial inflation "There is no way that these people are 50% East African " Then you are saying what gets assigned as "West Eurasian ancestry" in a lot of genome-wide studies is, in fact, African.
I suppose it's possible these two things could be occuring at the same time, however what ancestry in particular are you saying is called West Eurasian ancestry but is really African?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Never mind. Go on with your discussion Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Like I said before, the clowns are saying things that don't match with the data. E3b is African and therefore, it only got to Europe because Africans migrated there. Therefore, why aren't they calling those E3b carriers in Europe Africans then?
See the double standard? They can talk about Eurasian Genes in North Africa, but never ever do they talk about African genes in Europe. And specifically, they will take African lineages in Europe from African migrations and call it a Eurasian lineage.
That is all this nonsense boils down to. Europeans trying to apply theories to data that don't make sense. What makes sense is that E3b M81 got to North Africa from migrations within Africa. Then those genes got to Europe from Africans migrating to Europe. No back migration necessary. They know this is the most logical scenario but then that wouldn't allow them to keep pretending that Eurasians somehow populated North Africa in the ancient past and brought in their language and culture. All of which is totally and completely false. And they know it. Some scholars will simply keep reiterating the same nonsense over and over no matter if the data supports it or not because they have an agenda.
For example:
quote: lthough the frequency distribution of E-M34 could suggest that eastern Africa was the place in which the haplogroup arose, two observations point to a Near Eastern origin: (1) Within eastern Africa, the haplogroup appears to be restricted to Ethiopia, since it has not been observed in either neighboring Somalia or Kenya (present study) or Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000). By contrast, E-M34 chromosomes have been found in a large majority of the populations from the Near East so far analyzed (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study). (2) E-M34 chromosomes from Ethiopia show lower variances than those from the Near East and appear closely related in the E-M34 network (fig. 2D). If our interpretation is correct, E-M34 chromosomes could have been introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East. The high frequency of E-M34 observed for some of the Ethiopian populations could be the consequence of subsequent genetic drift, which can also explain the lower frequencies (2.3% [Underhill et al. 2000] and 4.0% [Semino et al. 2002]) reported for two large independent samples of Ethiopians. From the Near East, E-M34 chromosomes could also have been introduced into Europe, possibly by Neolithic farmers, but the paucity of E-M34 chromosomes in southeastern Europe (Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study) weakens this hypothesis. Indeed, as for E-M78δ chromosomes, introduction of E-M34 from Africa directly to southern-central Europe cannot be excluded at the present.
Which shows clearly how they are grasping at straws and trying to put E3 M84 into some "Asian" context when the lineage is obviously African. Hence the contradictions and the ease with which they can arbitrarily assign origins to lineages which don't make sense.
Even with that, there are some gems:
quote: The gradual termination of the African Humid Period started ~6,000 ya establishing today's North Africa desert ecosystem ~2,700 ya[65]. The desiccation of the Sahara accompanied by large-scale dust mobilization from 4,300 ya could have limited population spread and gene flow in the region, hypothetically triggering populations' divergence and structure. Our Bayesian analysis of population splits suggest North African populations started splitting ~2,800 ya (95%CI = 1,300–4,600 ya). Egypt appears to have split first from North Africa with dates coinciding with the kingdom decline in power and conquests by Assyrians and Persians. Our results from both uniparental and autosomal markers show that today's Egyptians are genetically closer to Eurasians than to other North Africans, probably a consequence of Egypt's and the Middle East's long established interaction through conquests and trades. Tuareg split next from North Africans around 1,900 ya, followed by the remaining North Africans splitting around 1,000–1,300 ya which coincide with the Islamic expansion arriving to North Africa.
So much for the modern Egyptians are the same genetically as the ancient Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Doug, stop crying
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: why aren't they calling those E3b carriers in Europe Africans then?
These Pasiegos from Cantabria are more North African than most Sub Saharans
xyyman regards them as Negro
note the swag of their sitting positions
also check the guy on the right, he's upping hov with the roc diamond symbol (also same head tilt) Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Like I said before, the clowns are saying things that don't match with the data. E3b is African and therefore, it only got to Europe because Africans migrated there. Therefore, why aren't they calling those E3b carriers in Europe Africans then?
See the double standard? They can talk about Eurasian Genes in North Africa, but never ever do they talk about African genes in Europe. And specifically, they will take African lineages in Europe from African migrations and call it a Eurasian lineage.
That is all this nonsense boils down to. Europeans trying to apply theories to data that don't make sense. What makes sense is that E3b M81 got to North Africa from migrations within Africa. Then those genes got to Europe from Africans migrating to Europe. No back migration necessary. They know this is the most logical scenario but then that wouldn't allow them to keep pretending that Eurasians somehow populated North Africa in the ancient past and brought in their language and culture. All of which is totally and completely false. And they know it. Some scholars will simply keep reiterating the same nonsense over and over no matter if the data supports it or not because they have an agenda.
I can tell you are not reading the articles on Eurasian back migration into North Africa from prehistoric remains dating to 12 Kya +
They are not based on saying E3b is Eurasian. They are not based on paternal Y-DNA
They are based on maternal mtDNA from prehistoric remains.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK
So why not write all about that here in my thread?
Clyde please I want this thread to be a compendium on the statement "Berbers are primarily not African;" pro, con, other.
How about making a one stop shop for all that info here, here and now in the present, here in this thread, another nest should those threads disappear, as threads are known to do around here time to time.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
... these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
In study after study of uniparental or autosomal DNA despite all the bias inherit in population genetics, as finely outlined by Cardova, the peoples sampled as "Berbers" by language or descent (from Imazighen formerly speaking a Tamazight) show majority African biology which for the most part is local though also including "SSA" haplogroups, haplotypes, etc.
======================= SIDEBAR: Which one is really SSA
* sub - Sahara Africa * supra - Sahara Africa * straight up - Sahara Africa =============================
Lioness' pic spam is meaningless and misleading in assuming only black or dark brown skinned Maliens as native and a black skinned Tuareg supposedly looking like "her" native Maliens when their facial features are unalike.
"She" then goes on to show more Tuareg pics. Are they, or even her black skinned Tuareg, pics of Maliens?
Kel Tamasheq have multiple origins. "She' can't just up and post any Tuareg from just anywhere and claim they're representative of Malien or Burkinabe Tuareg.
From the earliest times on record Mali's population included "Berber," Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan speakers. Neither is more native Malien than the other.
Then there's "her" trash talk about Tuareg maternal "straight haired Arab" ancestry whereas Pereira 2010's 39% non-L/M1 Taureg mtDNA is 94% H1 H3 & V. Pereira does not even mention any Arab mtDNA.
In fact, Pereira comments on missing "Arab" lineages in Taureg despite their appearance among other northern Africans.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
I don't know if that's what alTakruri meant to say. I didn't follow the entire thread but I get the impression that he was replying to your haplogroup based argument that, in terms of haplogroups composition, Berbers aren't primarily African. I agree with alTakruri's argument that, in terms of haplogroups, many Berber speakers could be primarily African. On the other hand, the literature has shown that haplogroups can be notoriously poor proxies for gauging ancestral components. Especially when you see populations with just a single haplogroup. If you know how haplogroup profiles emerge, you can't sit there and maintain that samples which are made up of one, two, or even three Y chromosomal haplogroups (e.g. many Maghrebi populations) provide reliable insight into populations structure.
.
Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
But this is not the case with the Imazighen.
I prematurely posted two autosomal skylines that clearly display both local African and SSA bands. Eventually, I will also compare and contrast African vs EurAsian autosome frequencies against uniparental frequencies to see how well or not they correlate.
Lyin' Ass is well known to spin a yarn than cut & paste my actual words. But Snakey is as Snakey does. Regulars know the drill but Newbies beware.
She gave Kabyle uniparental frequencies in post 462 but Arredi 2004 on North Africa not only has no such nrY data but is too early to know any such nomenclature as E1b1b1c etc. The word Kabyle does not even appear in that study. It's a lie snakily poisoning gullible folks unaware of "her" underhandedness.
Anyway, my position is spelled out in the OP and I'm presenting analysis of raw data that can be used to confirm or refute the premise Berbers are primarily not African.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The word Kabyle does not even appear in that study.
stop misleading people Kabyle are listed as in the Arredi as Tizi Ouzou, see table
Tizi Ouzou a city in north central Algeria. It is the capital and largest city of Tizi Ouzou Province. It is the second largest city in terms of population in the Kabylie region
________________________________
question:
does "predominantly African"
mean
"predominantly black" ???
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
Right. When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47% African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
Right. When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47 African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Even though the mainstream tries to hide this data, I can post plenty of exceptions to the usual code of silence on this topic in the literature, which support the fact that even Russians and West Eurasian in general have substantial African admixture.
They need not have acquired all of this directly from Africans. In fact, most of it was probably brought there by mixed West Asian intermediaries. Fact is though, African-like features have been observed in Kurgan remains near southern Russia.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: New Developments in Siberian Archreology
By CHESTER S. CHARD
v. P. Alekseev discussed the racial types of the Altai-Sayan uplands during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. On the basis of geological and palreo climatic evidence, he feels that the initial human settlement of the area could have taken place as far back as the Lower Palreolithic (which in Soviet usage includes the Mousterian). Judging by the Afontova Gora II cranial fragment, the Upper Palreolithic population evidently must be assigned to the Mongoloid race. The Europeoid component begins to penetrate into certain areas during the Neolithic-especially into the southern part of the Krasnoyarsk Territory. Alekseev identifies in this latter area a morphologically Negroid type which would indicate contact with_ southern regions.
Russian Source Materials for the Racial History of Northern Eurasia Author(s): Chester S. ChardSource: Arctic Anthropology, Vol. 1, No. 1 (1962), pp. 117-125
Along with many Mongoloid features it displays prognathism and a wide nose. The latter confirm previous evidence from this area suggesting that there was a southern element (Negroid- Australoid) in the Neolithic population here which persisted into the Bronze Age.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
The Palaeolithic of the Urals and the Peopling of the North Author(s): O. N. Bader and Richard G. KleinSource: Arctic Anthropology, Vol. 3, No. 1 (1965), pp. 77-90
In the Holocene, when the continental glacier disappeared from the north and the immediate consequences of the glaciations were overcome, ancient Mesolithic hunters of the region of the Urals settled in the peri-Arctic territory leaving traces of their stay even in the Bol'shezemel'skaia tundra (Chernov 1948). In the region of the Urals, as apparently in the forested zone of Siberia, the transition to the Mesolithic was accomplished by macrolithic tool users (Golii Kamen1 near Nizhnii Tagil) and only later, as the consequences of glaciation were gradually overcome and the landscape zones were displaced to the north, were the Urals settled on both flanks by people with a well-developed microlithic technique (Bader I960). These people came from the south - from the Ponto-Caspian region. This southern wave probably strengthened the Europoid element in the Urals and possibly brought with it an attenuated Negroid type which later is found west of the Urals in the late Neolithic (Gavrilovka), in the Bronze Age (the Algashinskii burial ground of the Abashevo culture), and even in the Iron Age (the Mari burial grounds).
^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler
I'm presenting analysis of raw data that can be used to confirm or refute the premise Berbers are primarily not African.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47% African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless. [/QB]
Ok Ok , lets see Swenet's more accurate breakdown source
Moroccans 51-52% African
ok Africans win,
but wait a minute....
Mozabites 52% non-African
Algerians 54% non-African
Tunisians 55% non-African
Libyans 57% non-African
North Moroccans 59% non-African
there, goes the neighborhood,
brought to you by Swenet productions
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Neolithic and Bronze Age are not in the Stone Ages, illiterate, hatin' ass troll. A troll who needs 5 thread pages to present a coherent case is lecturing me about what is and isn't "proper analysis".
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Neolithic and Bronze is not Palaeolithic, hatin' ass troll.
To Swenet a troll is a person that points out prehistoric morphology, remains at some specific site and a scientists interpretation as "Negroid" is irrelevant to the DNA of contemporary populations over the whole of Russia, and who do not carry these traits, Paleolithic, Neolithic or Bronze doesn't matter
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Of course you're a troll. First of all, I said that most of that ancestry can be explained by West Asian intermediaries, and secondly, you dumbass, the skeletal evidence builds a multi-disciplinary case using multiple facets of anthropology. These "negroid" traits are found in formative European/ Russian populations in a time which leads up to our common era. How could that be "irrelevant"? Your brains must be barely functioning to conjure up such a bummy knee-jerk objection and be convinced that it has currency in the real world.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This guy thinks modern Russians of 2014 are 25% black
I done with this troll
go visit Mike, he'll eat that up
next.....
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Orginally posted by the lioness, This guy thinks modern Russians of 2014 are 25% black
Where did I say these people would have been what you call black, and where did I say that I necessarily stand by that exact percentage, you dumbass, illiterate, not knowing the difference between Bronze and Stone Age, troll?
For someone who keeps reciting my posts to provoke a reaction from alTakruri, you sure are a hopelessly dumbfounded wreck. Others will always need to repeat themselves a million times over, because you don't understand anything unless it involves colourful pictures and baby-talk. Why are you even on an anthropology forum when you clearly don't understand sh!t, unless someone baby feeds it to you.
My actual post (which, BTW, wasn't directed to you since your dumbass reply to my post a couple of days ago turned me off):
quote: Originally posted by Swenet: When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47% African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ and this is from Swenet's above link regarding North Africa
Blue African Red Out of Africa
- a remindier this thread was based on a lioness quote- see first post a troll's provocation to get me started
"Racial History of Northern Eurasia"
^^^ all of the sudden race is valid, negroid is valid
no more back and forth, wait for Jerkular
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Haters gon' hate, trolls gon' troll:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Estimates of divergence times between European–African and East Asian–African populations are inconsistent with its simplest manifestation: a single dispersal from the continent followed by a split into Western and Eastern Eurasian branches. Rather, population divergence times are consistent with substantial ancient gene flow to the proto-European population after its divergence with proto-East Asians, suggesting distinct, early dispersals of modern H. sapiens from Africa.
The funny thing is, trolls can do absolutely nothing about these rock hard statistical analyses, except throw tantrums and mask their dogmatic knee-jerk objections in semi scientific language. Like this:
quote: Originally posted by the Lioness,: ^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
recap:
k=2
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
LOL! As we can all see, even though biology has aceepted (for the most part) that AMH evolved in Africa and then spread to the rest of the world, Euroclowns still have to play games with the data. Hence, even though most of these studies and reports about E3 and its children show CLEARLY that Europe has substantial genetic mixture from Africa, these clowns are choosing to ignore that and focus on any little scrap of data, no matter how slim to play up so-called European lineages in Africa, even though most of that is dubious. Yet they are silent far more substantial evidence of wholesale African lineages moving into Europe.
quote: In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78\ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
This data makes it clear that that the African lineages E3b and its descendants in Europe are evidence of large scale African movements into Europe and the Balkans. Yet these clowns don't talk about that as opposed to trying to make E3b lineages SOMEHOW Eurasian. These people are sick and twisted.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: LOL! As we can all see, even though biology has aceepted (for the most part) that AMH evolved in Africa and then spread to the rest of the world, Euroclowns still have to play games with the data. Hence, even though most of these studies and reports about E3 and its children show CLEARLY that Europe has substantial genetic mixture from Africa, these clowns are choosing to ignore that and focus on any little scrap of data, no matter how slim to play up so-called European lineages in Africa, even though most of that is dubious. Yet they are silent far more substantial evidence of wholesale African lineages moving into Europe.
quote: In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78\ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
This data makes it clear that that the African lineages E3b and its descendants in Europe are evidence of large scale African movements into Europe and the Balkans. Yet these clowns don't talk about that as opposed to trying to make E3b lineages SOMEHOW Eurasian. These people are sick and twisted.
Man Doug shouldn't be so surprised, realized how sick and twisted these people are from there confusing e1b1b1b1ba bullshit. Just gotta keep doing what you do best, Hurting them with revelation.
mena, and lioness are real iffy people especially that mena guy/girl never took what he posted as serious yet some like Zarahan were ignored when they outed menas "pro Africa" nonsense.
What hinted me was his posting of an black mannequin being sat on by an white woman. If that don't ring bells nothing will.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Again Swenet comes back with the usual euronut and undercover eurasian nut trickery of trying to divide Africans and use modern North Africans and modern East Africans as proxy populations for Eurasian.
Then he will try to say Ancient Egyptians are closer to those modern North Africans (like modern Egyptians, Berbers) or East Africans population than to modern West Africans or Great Lakes and Bantu populations. Very typical euronut move.
But that's ridiculous because Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, etc) are not close to each other only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically.
Most African people, the larger part of our ancestry, share a common origin pre-dating the formation of the AE state but postdating the main OOA migration.
There's also have been a lot of admixture between various Africans populations (and non-African to a lower degree due to distance) during history. For example, E-P2(PN2) carriers have their ancient origin in Eastern Africa but can be seen all over Africa in modern time. Those PN2 carriers also admixed with other African populations like other E and A and B carriers.
As I demonstrated a lot of time on this forum, African populations, including Ancient Egyptians, are genetically close to each other the same way Europeans, Native Americans, East Asians populations are genetically close to each other respectively due to their common origin and admixture.
We can see it on this genetic distance tree for example.
Clearly we can see that so-called sub-Saharan Africans cluster together in term of genetic distance, they form their own genetic family, and includes Central, Horn, West, Southern and Great Lakes Africans.
Even Horn Africans for example, which Euronut often try to use as a proxy Eurasian population because of their ancient and recent admixture with neighboring Eurasian populations, often carries the PN2/P2 haplogroups which is now widespread in Africa. So Horn Africans populations cluster both on the uni-parental line and autosomal DNA (see graph above) with other African populations. There's both differentiation and unity between various African populations. Which is true to some degree to humans in general.
I will say it again: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically. Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I will say it again: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically.
Correct
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I see the Lioness has run amok with Arredi bullshit (data that isn't in Arredi 2004), strawmanning primarily African as primarily black (after "she" practically coined the term primarily African), trying to lose the subject going off topic to black Russians.
No shame in "her" game.
Time I pulled in the reins with this my final uniparentals study example.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A good capsule of Badro's (2013, with Douaihy & Haber co-authors) data for our purposes are Tables TS3 & T1.
These excerpts from TS3 & T1 focus on Morocco, Tunisia, Libyan Sahara, Libya, and Egypt population frequencies where Badro found select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
I've excluded Burkinabe Twareg. Though Imazighen they are not located in any recognized part of Tamazgha. They live in a Gnawa country that I can't fit into the Mediterranean Africa / former Berber speaking Africa / Magreb core region analyses.
Badro makes no mention of U6 so I can't say U6 is definetely included within Badro's U (probably so).
Above is Badro's Figure 1 and below is Figure S1. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Badro's
* all E-M35 ____ as African * M* HV H & U __ as western EurAsian * all R-M343 ___ as western EurAsian
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Badro's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
See TS1 and TS2 for sampling info and reports for their backgrounds.
Below are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each selected African nation and views of them as
* a Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core "horns of the Maghreb" subset.
Because the highest Med Afr freq 50.3 is less than 51 the first set supports Berbers not primarliy African. 2nd & 3rd sets support Berbers are primarily African.
Badro's study is global with a focus on the region composed of Levant/Iraq/Arabia for affinities with Africa or Europe. I can't recall an ES thread on it. If not there should be a new thread to present and comment on it.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Why is it always the loudest super trolls who have the least citations in their posts? Its like their super troll status and big ass mouth is inversely correlated to the paucity of scientific reports in their posts. The more they're fuming out their ass, and swear they're onto to something, the more devoid of scientific references their posts are going to be.
Genetic substructure in ancient Africa is biggest nightmare for ES' supertrolls, but for different reasons. For super trolls like Lioness, it complicates things because substructure in Africa means African ancestry in Eurasia will go undetected, which means it will upset her confused, one-sided ideas about admixed Africans. For other super trolls like Amun-Ra the Ultimate, it means he won't get to relish in his retarded pan African dogmas, where Africans are supposed to be one big happy (genetic) monolith. Anything which threathens this dogma, on which his perceived access to the prestige of African civilizations, self-worth and sense of importance are built, triggers a deep-seated, delusional sense of outrage in him, which compells him to rant about the genetic closeness of Africans to each other.
Don't know which is more pathethic. Probably the latter. ES is full of psychopatic characters who come here, not caring anything about science, but simply to get their jollies off. That's why you can get someone who has been posting here for four years, refer to the Neolithic and Bronze Age as "palaeolithic", IN THE SAME POST where they try to lecture someone about supposedly not adhering to scientific standards. SMH.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Swenet stop worrying about what I think and trying to bait me an Amun Ra. Respond to Tukular's data instead of fishing for an extremely boring curse ridden Explorer type marathon battle to satisfy some emotional need you have.
Turkuler proposes that North Africans are primarily African. I already conceeded on the previous page that if you add up the haplogroup frequencies the following is a reasonable conclusion:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
I can even say I was wrong and agrree with a premise and still people want to continue to take an opposing position, keep trying to drag me in, so that they feel like their life has meaning. The ancient Egyptians may have even been part berber, the berbers are primarily East African. same up from the South thing You put up an obscure 1965 article, nearly uncited in other literature, an article titled The Palaeolithic of the Urals and the Peopling of the North
which said people from the south strengthened a Europid element and possibly also brought in an attenuated Negroid type later in the Neolithic Probably the same thing with berbers and Egyptians they were attenuated Negroids, the type the Europids of Russia brought with
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Lyin'ass, I stopped talking to your dumbass days ago; it was you who re-engaged me. Nothing you and that other guy say interests me; you're walking zombies to me. Nothing to learn from, whatsoever. I'm simply calling the both of you out for the lyingass dogmatic assholes the both of you are.
Let's set the record straight, shall we? My previous post was a response to the following lyingass and/or deliberately confusion spreading (trolling) posts:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ok Ok , lets see Swenet's more accurate breakdown source
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: brought to you by Swenet productions
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: recap:
k=2
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: This guy thinks modern Russians of 2014 are 25% black
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Russians are 25% black ???
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "Racial History of Northern Eurasia"
^^^ all of the sudden race is valid, negroid is valid
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Again Swenet comes back with the usual euronut and undercover eurasian nut trickery of trying to divide Africans and use modern North Africans and modern East Africans as proxy populations for Eurasian.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Then he will try to say Ancient Egyptians are closer to those modern North Africans (like modern Egyptians, Berbers) or East Africans population than to modern West Africans or Great Lakes and Bantu populations.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Good video showing Tuareg Berbers. An example of the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: I don't think you were able to parse what I wrote. It all has to with desert and Sahel raiders like the Touareg attacking villages and kidnapping individuals whom they then use as lower caste/servant/slave workers. It is on this basis that the idea of dominant group and subordinate group arises. The people who were usually kidnapped lived in villages and practiced agriculture of some sorts. The Touareg are nomadic people living in movable tents which carry with them as they trek from place. Many of the original Touareg groups are of lighter complexion while those kidnapped were usually darker. Hence in the simple-minded brains of the Touareg dark pigmentation, as is the case with the vast majority of Malians is associated with subordination.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Good video showing Tuareg Berbers. An example of the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
And here I thought Berber language and culture originated with sedentary cultivators like those of the oases and the Atlas?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Relevancy
My write up on Badro mistakenly said that Libyans were primarily African contrary to what the data actually tells.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin responding to TypeZeiss:
It all has to with desert and Sahel raiders like the Touareg attacking villages and kidnapping individuals whom they then use as lower caste/servant/slave workers. It is on this basis that the idea of dominant group and subordinate group arises. The people who were usually kidnapped lived in villages and practiced agriculture of some sorts. The Touareg are nomadic people living in movable tents which carry with them as they trek from place. Many of the original Touareg groups are of lighter complexion while those kidnapped were usually darker. Hence in the simple-minded brains of the Touareg dark pigmentation, as is the case with the vast majority of Malians is associated with subordination.
. Reality is reality whether we like it or not.
A scene common enough to Twareg and Maure alike.
Whether both are black is a moot point but one hardly sees the roles reversed.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Good video showing Tuareg Berbers. An example of the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
And here I thought Berber language and culture originated with sedentary cultivators like those of the oases and the Atlas?
Berber languages as far as I can recall originated in East Africa and traveled towards the Wast via movements of people from in and the Sudanese/Upper Egyptian Nile to North Africa from the ancestors of the modern Beja Nomads. And the Tuareg are indigenous Nomadic Saharan Africans speaking and writing the oldest variant of Berber languages known: Tamashek. Hardly a case for origins among "settled" populations, given this language moved from East to West across the vast Sahara. Their written language, Tifinagh is descended directly from Libyco Berber. The closest related scripts to Libyco Berber and tifinagh are Ge'ez and South Arabian.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel 2010
Luísa Pereira,1,2 Viktor Černý,3,*
Abstract The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ~9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ~10000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ~6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area
The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.
Among the first African mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences were those from data sets3, 4 obtained mostly from Tuareg living in Niger and Nigeria, and which revealed a rather sub-Saharan affinity of their population. More recently, however, a study based on 129 Tuareg samples from two villages of the Libyan Fezzan, stressed a high frequency but concomitant low diversity of the West Eurasian component, bearing only haplogroups H1, V and M1. The sub-Saharan component of the Libyan Tuareg was more diversified but predominantly represented by only two haplogroups (L2a1 and L0a1a). The Tuareg population from Libya was homogenous with very low estimates of haplotype diversity suggesting high genetic drift.5
The above-mentioned studies have thus revealed a dual influence in the genetic make-up of this African people. In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.
Subjects
The biological samples (buccal swabs) were obtained from three different groups of self-identified Tuareg (90 unrelated individuals in total). One population sample (n=38) was secured in Burkina Faso around the village Gorom-Gorom (further referred to as TGor). The second sample (n=31) was taken in the Republic of Niger in the vicinity of Tanut (TTan). The third sample (n=21) was collected in Mali near Gossi (TGos). The samples from Mali and Burkina Faso are geographically relatively close to each other as they are located within the bend of the Niger River, whereas the sample collected in the central part of the Republic of Niger is located some 1500km eastward (Figure 1). The field sampling was undertaken with the collaboration of local Tuareg assistants. Of these 90 healthy and unrelated individuals, 47 were male and 43 were female. Oral informed consent was obtained from all participants in the study and research permits were obtained from the Ministries of Education and/or Health in all the three countries.
mtDNA
A total of 48% of the mtDNA haplotypes observed in the Tuareg populations could be ascribed to sub-Saharan haplogroups. Another 39%, however, were of West Eurasian ancestry (non-L types in Table 1), which is a substantial proportion considering the sub-Saharan geographical location. In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50–75% in the northernmost locations.34 The Tuareg's neighbours, however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa Arabs from North-eastern Nigeria, 7% in the Buduma from South-eastern Niger and 6% in the Kanuri from North-eastern Nigeria).35 The remaining 13% of Tuareg haplotypes belong to the typical East African haplogroup M1.
Furthermore, we noticed some differences in the distribution of West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups between Tuareg groups. Most of the West Eurasian haplogroups (30 out of 35 sequences, amounting to 6 out of 9 HVS-I haplotypes) and the East African M1 (11 out12 sequences but amounting to only 2 out of 3 HVS-I haplotypes) are observed in the two Tuareg populations – TGos and TGor – located within the bend of the Niger. Tuareg from the Republic of Niger, TTan, have much higher proportion of sub-Saharan (81%) haplogroups than of West Eurasian (16%) and East African (3%) ones. These differences in haplogroup distribution led to statistically significant genetic distances when comparing HVS-I haplotypes between Tuareg from Mali (TGos) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.048; unadjusted P-value=0.009), as well as Tuareg from Burkina Faso (TGor) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.064; unadjusted P-value=0.000), whereas Tuareg from Mali (TGos) and from Burkina Faso (TGor) are not statistically different (FST=0.012; unadjusted P-value=0.234). Similarly, analysis of MDS based on FST distances and using a large database of West Eurasian and African mtDNA sequences has shown a very good separation of the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian-North African gene pools (Figure 2). Only some East African populations are closer to the West Eurasian samples, respectively, to the North African populations analysed here. This picture is a good representation of FST values as the normalized raw stress is very low (0.01165). However, the analysed Tuareg populations are divided between two gene pools: like the sample from Libya,5 the groups located within the bend of Niger (TGor and TGos) fall into the West Eurasian gene pool, whereas the Tuareg from the Republic of Niger (TTan) and the Tuareg sample from the Watson's data set3, 4 are permeated by the sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool.
The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe7, 10, 17, 26, 29, 36 and most probably North Africa30, 31 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15000–13000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (Supplementary Material SM5D).
Both H1 and H3 commonly display rather low diversity in the D-loop region, but the Tuareg haplotypes belonging to haplogroup V have a specific diagnostic mutation – the transition at position 16234. All the Tuareg V haplotype samples collected in Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger (three haplotypes observed in 11 individuals) bear this mutation together with the defining substitution at position 16298, This polymorphism is present in two of the five V haplotypes observed in the recently published Libyan Tuaregs.5 This fact seems to point to a founder effect in haplogroup V occurring in our southern Tuareg population; the further presence of two other polymorphisms in two V samples (substitutions at positions 16189 and 16293) allows a very preliminary estimation for the Time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) of this Tuareg V sub-lineage at around 3600±2600 years ago or at a maximum of 8800 years ago if using a 95% confidence interval (see Supplementary Material SM6 for the network) Another very interesting characteristic of the West Eurasian mtDNA pool in the Tuareg population as a whole (including Watson's and Ottoni's data sets) is the total absence of so-called Neolithic haplogroups derived from the branch JT, which are otherwise common in Near Eastern, North African, Mediterranean and even some East African populations. The virtual absence of these lineages in the Tuareg is statistically significant when comparing the frequency of these lineages in Morocco34 (18% unadjusted P-value=0.000), Tunisia30 (12% unadjusted P-value=0.000) and Egypt37 (29% unadjusted P-value=0.000). Notice also the absence of the haplogroup U6, which is present mainly in Berbers but also in several others North African groups.13, 16, 38
The sub-Saharan mtDNA pool of the Tuareg is composed of various lineages from the major L-type haplogroups including: 2.3% of L0; 14.0% of L1; 58.1% of L2; 23.3% L3; and 2.3% of L4. We assayed to search for haplotype matches in an extensive database of 7211 individuals from all over Africa (Table 2). The most ancient lineages L0a1a and L1c, characteristic of east/southeast Africa13 and the Pygmies,39 respectively, were each observed in only one individual. The highly frequent African haplogroup L2, and specifically its dominant clade L2a, is also dominant in Tuareg – it is probable that some branches of L2a were involved in the Bantu expansion towards the African south13, 40 and many matches are observed for these haplotypes all over the continent. Curiously, the two L2a lineages having substitutions at positions 16192 and 16193, respectively, have no match in Africa. As far as the L3 macrohaplogroup is concerned, the two L3b haplotypes observed in the Tuareg are widespread throughout the continent, but one of the L3f1 haplotypes (T47 in Table 1) has no matches. Both are included in the L3f1 sub-haplogroup, which is quite frequent and widespread, and which very probably originated in East Africa. No L3f3, a typical marker of the Chadic migration,41 has been observed in the Tuareg.
In summary, the matches between Tuareg sub-Saharan haplotypes and the diverse African regions were, after correcting for the size for each region, 5.6% with Africa-Central; 4.3% with Africa-East; 3.4% with Africa-North; 1.1% with Africa-South; 4.3% with Africa-southeast; 4.5% with Africa-southwest; 12.7% with Africa-West; and 13.4% with Africa-westcentral. The West Africa or West-Central African lineages thus are clearly dominant in the extant Tuareg.
The influence of East Africa in the Tuareg can be investigated more directly through haplogroup M1.16 As concerns the finer classification of Tuareg M1 haplotypes, two of them (5 sequences out of 12) belong to M1b, which has a clear Mediterranean distribution, pointing to North Africa as its most probable gateway to the Tuareg. This finding is inconsistent with the absence of U6, which is believed to have entered Africa together with M1 in a back migration from western Eurasia around 45000 years ago. The time estimate for M1b, based on the coding region, is 23400±5600 years,16 placing its origin in the Early Upper Palaeolithic. More promising in ascertaining Eastern African origin is another haplotype observed in seven Tuareg individuals from Burkina Faso belonging to haplogroup M1a, which, though being considered dominant in East Africa42 also spread to the Mediterranean, and which has a total age of 28800±4900 years.16 We performed the complete sequencing of three individuals, which despite not displaying any difference at HVS-I and HVS-II, might present some substitutions in the coding region, allowing for a better estimate of a TMRCA. These three samples, however, did not bear any difference even when sequencing the complete genome. Nonetheless, when taken together with the other M1a2a individuals (Figure 3) reported in Olivieri et al16 (sample 1 in Figure 3, accession number EF060335; sample 2, accession number EF060336), González et al43 (sample 3; accession number DQ779927) and Maca-Meyer et al44 (sample 4; accession number AF381984) allowed an age estimation for this sub-haplogroup at 8000±2400-years old based on diversity in the coding region. We checked the TMRCA using Soares et al26 mutations rates for the entire molecule and for the synonymous substitutions, obtaining, respectively, the following concordant dates: 10400±2300 and 10200±3400. Notice, however, that all the other four M1a2a complete sequences were observed in the Mediterranean region and in Table 2 the HVS-I motif observed in Tuareg has 10 perfect matches in the Africa-North data set and one in Africa-westcentral.
Y DNA
From the 20 branches of the Y chromosome tree, which could be discriminated by the analyses performed, only 7 were observed in our Tuareg population sample (Supplementary Material SM7). Again, from this perspective of Y chromosome diversity, TTan is closer to sub-Saharan populations than the other two Tuareg populations, presenting 5.6% of the old AB lineages and 44.4% of E1b1a, whereas TGor and TGos have, respectively, 16.7 and 9.1% of E1b1a. Curiously, TTan also presents the highest frequency (33.3%) of West Eurasian R1b lineages whereas TGor presents only 5.6% of lineage K* (xO,P), and TGos presents none. There were no instances of the Eurasian J haplogroup in the Tuareg, which is otherwise frequent in North Africa (an average of 20% see Arredi et al45), and attains the highest frequency in the Middle East (around 50% see Semino et al)46.
The dominant haplogroup in TGor (77.8%) and TGos (81.8%) is E1b1b1b, which has a much lower frequency in TTan (11.1%). This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.45 Arredi et al45 dated this haplogroup in North Africa from 2800 to 9800 YBP, associating its expansion with the Neolithic demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
The low level of diversity attained in the Tuareg populations (see Supplementary Material SM8) is consistent with a model of population constancy, although it can also be due in part to the ascertainment bias in the selection of a few Y-SNPs. Haplotype diversities and mean number of pairwise differences were very low in TGor and TGos, being among the lowest values observed in many populations, but TTan showed much higher levels of diversity.
MDS of FST distances based on available Y-SNP West Eurasian and African population data sets shows, as in the case of mtDNA, separation of the West Eurasian-North African and sub-Saharan populations (Figure 4). A certain separation between the Iberian and Near Eastern groups can be explained by the absence of samples from the Central Mediterranean for the Y-NRY data set. However, though the Tuareg groups from the Niger bend (TGor and TGos) belong clearly on the West Eurasian side, the Tuareg from central Niger lean towards sub-Saharan variability.
Discussion
The Tuareg have a nomadic lifestyle and according to some demographic reports they show reduced fertility in comparison with their neighbours.47, 48, 49 The data observed here for mtDNA and Y-SNP diversities are concordant with those independent reports, especially for the Tuareg living within the bend of the Niger.
The overall West Eurasian mtDNA gene pool in the Tuareg population as a whole (H1, H3 and V) seems to favour a North African heritage.50 The only exception is the absence of the otherwise rare U5b that might have rather come to Africa through the Near East, and then drifted to higher frequencies only in some isolated populations such as in the Egyptian oasis Siwa.51 The absence of U6 can further be explained by genetic drift during the expansion of this haplogroup within North Africa.51 Note that U6 was observed at low frequencies in several population groups from the Chad Basin, such as in the Nilo-Saharan Kanuri and the Afro-Asiatic Masa.35
Relationships with the peoples of Eastern Sudan (the Beja) as pointed to by the study of classical genetic markers2 cannot yet be disregarded here as there is still no mtDNA of the Beja people available for study. However, according to historical reports, the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula52 and the West Eurasian mtDNA lineages seen in the Tuareg have a rather Iberian affiliation in the post-LGM, and probably expanded to North Africa first.30, 31 The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ~9000 and ~3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16234 (3600 years ago).
The dates obtained from the genetic data coincide well with climatic changes in the Sahara, which resulted in repopulation during the first half of the Holocene when by ~10000 YBP (the Holocene climatic optimum) humid conditions and greening were established. The climatic optimum lasted until ~6000 YBP, when the shift towards more permanent aridity occurred, culminating with the formation of the current Sahara desert. This desertification could have entrapped Tuareg populations coming from North Africa to the Sahel belt together with other pastoralists such as the Chadic speaking peoples41 coming from East Africa and Fulani nomads6 coming from West Africa. In fact, by performing complete mtDNA sequencing of the L3f3 lineage, specific for Chadic-speaking groups of the Chad Basin, Černý et al41 estimated a local demographic expansion during the Holocene period at about 8000±2500 YBP. No doubt all populations arriving to the Sahel were further enriched by various admixtures of many other sub-Saharan lineages, an effect even more pronounced in the Chadic groups who adopted a sedentary lifestyle soon after their arrival to the fertile Chad Basin than in the Tuareg who remain nomadic until present.
It is curious that, at least for the Tuareg maternal gene pool, there are no mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion from the Near East despite being present in considerable frequencies in other North African populations. For example, the conservation of the high frequency and remarkable internal variability of T1 haplotypes within the distant and relatively isolated Egyptian oasis of el-Hayez led to an estimation of local expansion at around 5138±3633 YBP.37 There are no indications yet of the ages of local expansions in the more central and western regions of North Africa, which could contribute further insights for its absence in the Tuareg population as a whole.
Interestingly, for the Y chromosome, the dominant haplogroup in North Africa as well as the Tuareg is E1b1b1b. This haplogroup was associated with Neolithic diffusion in North Africa, with an age estimation of 2800–9800 YBP,45 but the lower resolution of the Y chromosome tree did not allow us to investigate this issue further. Nonetheless, disregarding whether they are in fact Neolithic, the ages for the mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages of North African origin observed in southern Tuareg are consistent with the same period, between 9000 and 3000 years ago.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by lamin responding to TypeZeiss:
It all has to with desert and Sahel raiders like the Touareg attacking villages and kidnapping individuals whom they then use as lower caste/servant/slave workers. It is on this basis that the idea of dominant group and subordinate group arises. The people who were usually kidnapped lived in villages and practiced agriculture of some sorts. The Touareg are nomadic people living in movable tents which carry with them as they trek from place. Many of the original Touareg groups are of lighter complexion while those kidnapped were usually darker. Hence in the simple-minded brains of the Touareg dark pigmentation, as is the case with the vast majority of Malians is associated with subordination.
. Reality is reality whether we like it or not.
A scene common enough to Twareg and Maure alike.
Whether both are black is a moot point but one hardly sees the roles reversed.
Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Berber languages as far as I can recall originated in East Africa and traveled towards the Wast via movements of people from in and the Sudanese/Upper Egyptian Nile to North Africa from the ancestors of the modern Beja Nomads. And the Tuareg are indigenous Nomadic Saharan Africans speaking and writing the oldest variant of Berber languages known: Tamashek. Hardly a case for origins among "settled" populations, given this language moved from East to West across the vast Sahara. Their written language, Tifinagh is descended directly from Libyco Berber. The closest related scripts to Libyco Berber and tifinagh are Ge'ez and South Arabian.
This is false. Berber languages are not related to Ge'ez.
The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.
The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
Germans
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Berber Languages
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
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I'm beginning to heed your teachings more and more Dr. Winters.
Obenga is an linguist, why would he lie about this but laymens words are taken as truth?
Also Berbers HAD to of been Vandals if they were ruled for 400 years just because you can't really control areas without 1. Language and 2. Population movements.
Look at Canada the USA and Australia these countries were VERY different before the coming of euros who transformed it into another britain .
Anyone claiming that the Vandals AND the white slave trade had no impact on North Africa are deluding themselves.
Look at berber dress and german dress, and the indeginous dress of the people that is called Sami. ITS ALL THE SAME.
I respect Doug etc but this isnt coincidence. I mean how can you be ignorant to these facts??
I believe now that there is no afroasiatic language at all and its forced together just to group Egypt away from the rest of Africa or to explain why Egypt is in Africa and NOT in Europe...Game of bullshit played and propped up by euros and uncle toms like gates etc.
What needs to be identified is what the garamante spoke before the coming of the sea people and why the euros are desperate to not even try African languages in there pathetic attempts at deciphering the language of ancient crete.
We know from the pics the egyptians had, that the cretes were basically tuaregs or garamantes:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde you seem to be ignoring berber/Tuareg DNA
many seem to along around 50/50 African/Eurasian some a little more African some a little more Eurasian
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
And here I thought Berber language and culture originated with sedentary cultivators like those of the oases and the Atlas?
Berber languages as far as I can recall originated in East Africa and traveled towards the Wast via movements of people from in and the Sudanese/Upper Egyptian Nile to North Africa from the ancestors of the modern Beja Nomads. And the Tuareg are indigenous Nomadic Saharan Africans speaking and writing the oldest variant of Berber languages known: Tamashek. Hardly a case for origins among "settled" populations, given this language moved from East to West across the vast Sahara. Their written language, Tifinagh is descended directly from Libyco Berber. The closest related scripts to Libyco Berber and tifinagh are Ge'ez and South Arabian.
I have it there were no Twareg until way after Neolithic time. Twareg are not monolithic in origin. Some who became Twareg moved south from Tripolitania and/or Tunisia. The aristocrat Twareg claim Tafilalet Morocco as point of origin. Certain peoples of Tassili were already there when subdued by incoming proto-Twareg adopting their culture when they became vassal clans.
Then there's the sedentary banu Tanamak the apparent founders of Essuq Tademekkat. They too are one component of the Kel Tamasheq people.
I only saw a weak reference for a Beja connection made by Cavilli-Sforza.
If name origins mean anything and Targui is indeed the name Twareg were first known by then they were gardeners before the camel and then the Arab and their adopting predatory ways.
Of course there's no doubt of their E Afr E-M81 or "Berber" language affiliation though Tifinagh is not Libyco-Berber as you noted.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
King
My problem with analyzing language is you can not ignore all of the history and inputs. For example we know MILLIONS of Europeans slaves were introduced into North Africa from 700AD to 1800AD. That in no small way could have had a lasting affect on the languages in the region.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
Germans
.
These women are Berber. They are not Twareg. They have nothing of the German about themselves at all.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: I'm beginning to heed your teachings more and more Dr. Winters.
Obenga is an linguist, why would he lie about this but laymens words are taken as truth?
Also Berbers HAD to of been Vandals if they were ruled for 400 years just because you can't really control areas without 1. Language and 2. Population movements.
Look at Canada the USA and Australia these countries were VERY different before the coming of euros who transformed it into another britain .
Anyone claiming that the Vandals AND the white slave trade had no impact on North Africa are deluding themselves.
Look at berber dress and german dress, and the indeginous dress of the people that is called Sami. ITS ALL THE SAME.
I respect Doug etc but this isnt coincidence. I mean how can you be ignorant to these facts??
I believe now that there is no afroasiatic language at all and its forced together just to group Egypt away from the rest of Africa or to explain why Egypt is in Africa and NOT in Europe
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Yes, there is a lot to Dr. Winters writings, however please note the following.
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic. See the Theophile Obenga & Negro-Egyptien thread. In particular page through it and read Sabalour's translation of Obenga on Berber language.
Vandals did not rule for 400 years but just ~100 years. They weren't all that numerous nor was their realm very widespread in regards to the entire range of "Berber" territory not to mention the resistance to foreign rule everywhere but near the coast. I first made that clear back in 2006 but expanded on it in the Berber languages are European thread. In the end the Vandals who weren't conscripted into the Byzantine Roman army holed up in just one city in Algeria.
All Berbers do not dress alike. Yes there are similarities between some Berber women's clothing and some central and eastern European peoples. This is mostly right on the coast. Most Berber women's costume is one of local design. This is expected of a people who are of deep local roots but heavily admixed by foreigners both continental and non-continental.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by KING: I'm beginning to heed your teachings more and more Dr. Winters.
Obenga is an linguist, why would he lie about this but laymens words are taken as truth?
Also Berbers HAD to of been Vandals if they were ruled for 400 years just because you can't really control areas without 1. Language and 2. Population movements.
Look at Canada the USA and Australia these countries were VERY different before the coming of euros who transformed it into another britain .
Anyone claiming that the Vandals AND the white slave trade had no impact on North Africa are deluding themselves.
Look at berber dress and german dress, and the indeginous dress of the people that is called Sami. ITS ALL THE SAME.
I respect Doug etc but this isnt coincidence. I mean how can you be ignorant to these facts??
I believe now that there is no afroasiatic language at all and its forced together just to group Egypt away from the rest of Africa or to explain why Egypt is in Africa and NOT in Europe
.
Yes, there is a lot to Dr. Winters writings, however please note the following.
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic. See the Theophile Obenga & Negro-Egyptien thread. In particular page through it and read Sabalour's translation of Obenga on Berber language.
Vandals did not rule for 400 years but just ~100 years. They weren't all that numerous nor was their realm very widespread in regards to the entire range of "Berber" territory not to mention the resistance to foreign rule everywhere but near the coast. I first made that clear back in 2006 but expanded on it in the Berber languages are European thread. In the end the Vandals who weren't conscripted into the Byzantine Roman army holed up in just one city in Algeria.
All Berbers do not dress alike. Yes there are similarities between some Berber women's clothing and some central and eastern European peoples. This is mostly right on the coast. Most Berber women's costume is one of local design. This is expected of a people who are of deep local roots but heavily admixed by foreigners both continental and non-continental.
2 sides to every story.
Credit 2 you Takruri. If the Vandals only ruled for 100 years then definitely its harder(not impossible) to control a region.
I truly want to believe that berbers are a part of Africa but with all the things I hear and see on the net it seems they still have there colonial mentality...yet when they go to france the face the same **** as west Africans.
Then you have the freedom fighters of algeria that died to free their country from racist france yet we know how the North Africans view other africans.
its the lesser then sindrome that many berbers, euros etc like to shove down peoples throat. think there better then someone based on there color or culture or religion. They struggle to comprehend that calling people slaves and abeed is shining a light on how they view themselves and there own people. They were slaves in there own country called colonialism....Then they forget about the white slave trade where million white women were in North Africa...Yet the West Africans are abeeds???
Thats the kind of mentality that needs to be erased from peoples mind but as we see with many indians, its a struggle
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
LOL look at what happened in a 100 years of Europeans coming to America.In less than 40 years millions of native Americans were murdered. In North America what happened to the Black Native Americans and Amerinds who formerly lived in the North and Northeast and coastal regions of the U.S?
Don't fool yourselfa lot can happen in 100 years
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: King
My problem with analyzing language is you can not ignore all of the history and inputs. For example we know MILLIONS of Europeans slaves were introduced into North Africa from 700AD to 1800AD. That in no small way could have had a lasting affect on the languages in the region.
The“elite dominance” theory,proposes that wherein a small group of highly organized people dominates an existing population, usually mlitarily explains the origin of the Berbers. Due to the Vandal conquest of Northwest Africa German cultural influences and language were introduced to the region. Due to mating with the Black Natives the Berbers carry African genes.
The female slaves introduced by the Ottoman were usually Slavic speakers. We see little if any Slavic influences in the Berber languages so we know that a military force probably caused the rise of German in Berber languages since the Vandals dominated the indigenous population after their invansion of the region.
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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
all right found this Touareg propaganda vid where the poor tuareg are rejected by the counries.
No slaves or dark skinned tuaregs, just a vid crying to the euros for help. They must think by showing the lighter skinned tuareg people will feel pity or something:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic.
That's a lie and mischaracterization of Obenga's works. He doesn't relate Berber to other African languages from the Negro-Egyptian language phyla which include Niger-Kordofanian, Ancient Egyptian, Chadic, Cushitic and Nilo-Saharans.
He says:
quote: On a strictly linguistic basis, it must be clearly stated, following proper analysis, that berber languages are not semitic nor negro-egyptians. Hence, the berber languages form their own linguistic family, and are self-sustaining.
So Berber languages are unrelated to other Negro-Egyptian languages (beside through borrowing, also mentioned by Obenga).
If you take into account this aDNA study placing eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in the Taforalt (Maghreb) region around 12000BP. Eurasian haplogroups mostly from the Iberian region in Europe (now speaking latin languages such as Portuguese and Spanish). This suggest to me that the Berber languages is possibly the ancestral language spoken by some hunter-gatherers European ethnic groups in the ancient Iberian region. Later on, one of those "Iberian dialects" would take over the other Iberian/Berber dialects and later on again borrow some items from arabic, european and african languages (chadic, etc). Mostly arabic of course due to the process of arabisation/islamisation going on in North Africa since the arab conquests.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, Zulu, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically .
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.
The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
Germans
.
.
TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, Zulu, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically .
Apart from DNATribes gentetic matches how are Zulus close geographically, historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically to Egyptians ?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, Zulu, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically .
Apart from DNATribes gentetic matches
It's the genetic profiles (DNA/autosomal STR) of Ancient Egyptian mummies tested thus far which match African populations. The BMJ study came to the same conclusion by stating the haplogroup of Ramses III to be E1b1a. A genetic haplogroup common among many African populations including the Zulu, Yoruba, Wolof, etc. Some internet blog also matched the 18th Dynasty mummies DNA profile with African populations. Admittedly not a lot of mummies have been tested thus far, but I can't ignore the results. Importantly we're talking about royalty so we can worry less about how representative this very small sample of ancient specimen is.
Many of my posts in this forum are about characterizing the Ancient Egyptian civilizations especially at it's foundation stage. It's easy to see the historic, archeological, cultural and biological continuity within Africa. At first, most modern African populations were living in East Africa. At a time, after the main out of Africa migration. Then sub-Sahara Africa, so to speak, shifted northward because of climate change. The rain, flora, animals and the humans shifted northward migrating and occupying the green Sahara. A green Sahara which extend approximately from the Atlantic ocean to Eastern Africa, including the Egyptians deserts. I see it as the wavy-line pottery culture. The progenitor of Ancient Egyptians came from this green Saharan civilization. As populations migrated to the Nile Valley, as well as other regions of Africa, during the dessication of the Sahara. Populations such as those at Nabta Playa, qualified as "sub-Saharan Africans", brought their culture to the Nile Valley to lay down the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian state.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
The best way to understand the situation is to look at things on the ground. The question is how do Malians look at the Touaregs? And how do Touaregs look at Malians? Just interview a sufficient number of both groups and you will get the answer.
The other question is: are Touaregs easily indentifiable in places like Bamako on mainly phenotypical grounds?
A similar issue arises with the Mauritanians of lighter hue vis a vis those of darker hue. Again, just interview both groups and hear what they have to say.
The explanation is simple: nomadic desert and Sahel groups have historically kidnapped sedentary village types whom they use as servants and bondsmen. A theory of castes based on phenotype then develops.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
No matter what you read in a book the Temehu were not Berbers. The Temehu were C-Group people.Diop pointed out long ago that Eurocentrists have tried to project Berbers into the ancient history of African people.
The only genetic link of the Berbers to the east is with the Siwa Berbers who as pointed out earlier came to Siwa recently, and began to dominate the native Siwans.
I am amazed you made these statements relating to the Berber languages after Amun-Ra The Ultimate has posted evidence on the linguistic background of the Berber speakers which shows there lack of relationship to African languages. The Tuareg language is related to African languages--but not Berber.
Although I have posted numerous times comments on the origin of writing in Middle Africa you attempt to connect the Berbers to inscriptions that are spread from the Fezzan to Tichitt,that pre-date the Berber migration from Northwest Africa to Siwa.Moreover, you ignore the fact that numerous Mande speaking groups have writing in addition to Berbers. Since Tichitt was founded by Mande speakers, and the Berbers only recently migrated East, there is no way they wrote the inscriptions found from Fezzan to Tichitt.
Doug, You might find the above an interesting debating piece.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Tuareg should not be considered Berbers.
Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author)
The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists.(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs(Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier, 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
During the invansion of Egypt by the people of the Sea, Europeans enter the Delta Region of Egypt. Most researchers link these "whites" to the Berbers. The whites who were part of the Sea People invansion were called the Meshwesh. Researchers link the Meshwesh to modern Berbers.
The tehenu and Meshwesh
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64). The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman. In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliograpy
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_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their relationship to Africans.
Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton ,NJ:Africa World Press. This book provides the theoretical foundations for africalogical studies.
_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal of Negro Education,60(2):170-180. The author explains the importance of the Afrocentric field of study for enrichment of the social studies curricula.
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Baines,J. (11 August,1991). "Was Civilization made in Africa?" The New York Times Review of Books,pp.12-13. This article attempts to review the work of Bernal and Diop in a negative light.
Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York. Volume 1. Here the author explains his theory that there is need for a new historiography for the Mediterranean which recognizes the multicultural origins of Greece. The author also returns to the ancient model which claimed that the Egyptians were "Blacks".
________. (1991). Black Athena. New York. Volume 2. In this volume Bernal outlines his theory that the founders of Greece were Hyksos (Semitic) people from Egypt.
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization.
_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian.
__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago:
Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share.
___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states.
____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages.
_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans.
Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books Ltd. 2 volumes. In this volume we see a detailed account of the founding Myths of the ancient Greeks as recorded in Greek literature.
Hopper, R.J. (1976). The Early Greeks. New York:Harper & Row Pub. Hopper gives an informative narative on the history of the ancient Greeks.
Hochfield,S. & Riesfstahl,E.(1978). (Eds.) Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Nubia and the Sudan. New York: Brooklyn Museum. 2 vols. This is a fine source of information on the Kushite and Meroitic empires. It also provides many well researched articles and photographs of the Kushites. The evidence in this book shows that the Egyptians and Kushites were one.
Hughes,R. (1992, February 3). "The Frying of America". TIME ,pp.44-49. Hughes discussed the threat of multiculturalism to unity of the American people.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Levine,M.M. (April 1992). "The use and abuse of Black Athena", American Historical Review,pp. 440-460. This articles attacks Bernal and the use of Black Athena to estabish a new paradigm for ancient history.
Lefkowitz,M. (1992,February 10). "Not out of Africa". The New Republic, pp.29-36. This text deals with the hyptohesis that Greek civilization came from Africa. Lefkowitz contends that Africans failed to play an important role in Greecian civilization.
Marriott,M. (1991,August 11). "As a Discipline Advances, Questions Arise on Scholarship". The New York Times. Marriott gives an excellent discussion of the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. It provides a good discussion of the players pro and against this field of intellectual inquiry.
Martel, E. (December 1991/January 1992). "How valid are the Port-land Baseline Essays". Educational Leadership, pp.20-23. Martel gives reasons in this article why he believes that many of the claims of Afrocentrists are wrong.
__________.(1991). "Teachers's Corner:Ancient Africa and the Port-land Curriculum Resource",Anthro Notes: National Museum of Natural History(Smithsonian) Bulletin for Teachers 13, pp.2-6. This text explains why Afrocentrism should be kept out of the schools until it conforms with accepted Eurocentric views about Africana affairs and history. He does argue that the Egyptians were a multiculutural society.
Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360. This is an excellent analysis of the influence of Diop on africalogical studies and the European attacks against his research.
Nicholson,D. (1992, September 23). "Afrocentrism and the Tribalization of America". The Washington Post, B-l.Nicholson makes the claim that Afrocentrism is causing the fragmentation of America.
Okafor,V.O. (1991). " Diop and the African Origin of Civiliza- tion:An Afrocentric Analysis". Journal of Black Studies 22(2):252-268. This book offers excellent guidelines on implimenting the research methods of Diop in africological studies.
Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization ".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344. This short article provides a wealth of historical and lexical evidence for the African origination of Greccian heroes, literature and civilization.
___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.: Black Classic Press. This book provides a short discussion of the important role of Blacks in the rise of civilization around the world.
Petrie,W.M.F. (1921). Corpus of Prehistoric Pottery. London.Petrie provides the first detailed categorization of Egyptian pottery and an informative account on the origination of Egypt.
Pounder, R.L. (1992,April) "Black Athena 2:History without Rules" American Historical Review, 461-464. This articles attacks the credibility of Bernal's ,Black Athena.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Raphael, . 1947. Prehistoric Pottery . New York: Pantheon Book. Raphael provides a thorough explanation of the ceramics of the predynastic Egyptians.
Ravitch,D. (1990,Summer). "Multiculturalism:E Pluribus Plures". The American Scholar, pp.337-354. Ravitch argues that multiculturalism is causing America to become ethnicallly polarized, while we abandon many of the values that unite Americans.
Schlesinger,A.M. (1992). The Disuniting of America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society. New York: Norton. Schlesinger argues that multiculturalism is bringing about the rise of ethnocentrism in the United States.
Snowden,F. (1976). "Ethiopians and the Greco-Roman World". In The African Diaspora. Washington: Howard University Press. In this paper Snowden discusses the role of Ethiopian slaves in Grecce.
___________. (1992, March 4). "Blacks as seen by Ancient Egyptians, Greek and Roman Artists". (Lecture) Chicago: Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. In this lecture Snowden continues his theory that the only Blacks in Egyptian and Classical art were slaves.
Tounkara,B. (1989). "Problematique du comparatisme egyptien ancien/langues africaines (wolof)". Presence Africaine,nos. 149-150: 313-320. This book discusses the linguistic relationship of wolof and Egyptian.
Trigger,B.G. (1987). "Egypt: A Fledging Nation". The Journal of the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. Trigger documents the rise of Egyptian civilization in the Sahara and Nubia.
____________. (1992). "Brown Athena: A Post Processual Goddess". Current Anthropology, 33(1): 121-123. This article focuses on the misuse of the book Black Athena as a tool to claim the Egyptians were Blacks.
Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne. Paris. This is a fine examination of the archaeology of Egypt.
Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The Oriental Institute University of Chicago. This excellent text reviews the important Qustul cemetery, which provides a detailed account of the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.
Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian origin in Nubia.
Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima,(New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215. This paper discusses the Manding origin for many of the so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions and explains how these inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years ago.
__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes the idea that Greece was founded by the Indo-European speakers. Winters argues that credit should be given to the African settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine.
_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8. In this article Winters' discussed the famous Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin.
________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper provides insights into the long history of Blacks in Europe, including the Old Europeans, Danubians and other groups.
_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the unity of the writing systems used by the Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans. He shows that these scripts have a common ideological origin and that they can all be read due to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by these people.
__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto- terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland.
__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis of the common roots toponyms found in Asia of African origin.
__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these langauges that indicate their genetic unity.
__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan civilization. He provides numerous examples of the Dravidian and African influences on the Indo-European languages.
__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years ago. Special attention is placed on the type and expression of African civilization in ancient Asia.
___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites, Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups.
Yurco,F. (1989,September/October). "Were the ancient Egyptians Black?". Biblical Archaeological Review, 15(5):24-29,58.Yurco argues that the Egyptians have always been "light skinned", and that they got darker as you went south into Nubia. Wainwright, G. 1962. The Meshwesh", JEA 48, 89-99.
Osing,J. 1980. "Libyen, Libyer", LA III, 1015-1033.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Tehenu belonged to the C-Group and were predominately Niger-Congo speakers. They joined the Egyptian empire during the New Kingdom and lived in the Southern nomes.
Many researchers have recognized that many African civilizations share common cultural features and words with ancient Egypt. This poses the question: "Why do Egyptians and Black Africans share a similar civilization"?.
This question has been answered by Wally. Wally has proven that Egpyt was a Pan-African civilization which was multinational and included many African nationalities.
Secondly, Wally has proven that egyptian was a lingua franca used to unite the multinational Pan-African Egypt with a single means of communication.
These findings by Wally means that we have to see the shared linguistic and cultural features of Black Africans are the result of many of these african nationals living in a Pan-African Egypt.
Great work Wally!
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that many contemporary Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects. .
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Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde you seem to be ignoring berber/Tuareg DNA
many seem to along around 50/50 African/Eurasian some a little more African some a little more Eurasian
You seem to be ignoring the Phylogenetic Tree and breakdown of the nucleair resolutions, as was shown by Tukuler.
Also, physical anthropology and archeology indicate an indigenous situ process.
Clown!
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
Right. When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47 African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic.
That's a lie and mischaracterization of Obenga's works.
.
Go away you bother me, boy. All your twists & lies.
Obenga never wrote about any relationship between Berber and Germanic.
Obenga without ambiguity classifies Berber as an African language family just as he classed Khoisan as an African language family.
You with your personal beef invent the lie that I said Obenga's Berber language family is his Negro-Egyptien language family.
Way back in 2007 I posted Obenga excluded Berber from both Negro-Egyptien and any relationship to Semitic or Egyptic (which Greenberg classed all three in AfroAsian).
Originally posted October 08, 2007 04:56 PM by alTakruri:
As far as I can make out, and I very well could be wrong, Obenga recognizes three unrelated language phyla native to geographical Africa and one spoken in Africa but considered of extra-African origin.
1) négro-égyptien 2) khoisan 3) berbère
He recognizes that Semitic languages are spoken in Africa but doesn't classify them as native to the geographical continent of Africa calling them
4) sémitique de l'Afrique
He defines the Negro-Egyptian group as those languages related to if not actually arising from pharaonic Egyptian.
Tamazight (the designation that North Africans themselves have chosen for their language family as they deem the word Berber to be one forced on them by Greek, Roman, and later Arab colonialist invaders) is totally unrelated to pharaonic Egyptian per Obenga and thus excluded from the unity of the langues négro-africaines.
Originally posted October 09, 2007 03:18 PM by alTakruri:
Obenga classes taMazight (Berber) as an indigenous African language in a superphylum all of its own.
Again, as posted above, Obenga recognizes three unrelated language phyla native to geographical Africa:
1) négro-égyptien 2) khoisan 3) berbère
Tamazight, per Obenga, is totally unrelated to pharaonic Egyptian and thus excluded from the unity of the langues négro-africaines.
You didn't follow the link before and I doubt you'll follow it now. Why? your interest is puffing your chest at my expense instead of increasing knowledge.
Fat chance.
Think before you post! (if you can reason i.e.)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Historians give a 428/9 start date and a 534/5 finish date for North African Vandal rule.
Very few Berbers descend from Vandals.
Probably only some now living in Bougie.
The Luwata Berbers and the Byzantines conquered the Vandals. Those who weren't conscripted into the Byzantine army and shipped off to the Persian frontier fled to the two Gothic kingdoms in Europe. The paltry remainder were absorbed by the Latinized Berbers of Soldae (now Bougie).
Vandals are not known to be culture bearers. I mean they had nothing to give as influence into Berber culture. Their physical range was limited. It missed all the Berber territory of Morocco and everything other side of the Atlas from Morocco to Libya.
Compare Vandal Kingdom limits to range of Berber dialects.
Not only is the Twareg Tamahaqt et al a "Berber" dialect, it is per some linguists closest to the Kabyle Taqbaylit lect though the culture of the two are not much alike at all.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
We already know about this, however...the nuclear resolutions is what Tukuler is mentioning. What you keep dismissing is that the lineage could actually have maintained within Africa. And in fact you keep telling us it magically stopped at L*.
By the way, when are you going to show archeological and anthropological evidence, in this so called distribution?
quote:The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago
--Frigi et al.
quote:No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
[...]
Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote:Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
quote: “..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages
(B) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, L5, L2, L3, M, and N in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies.
--Mary Katherine Gonder*, Holly M. Mortensen*, Floyd A. Reed*, Alexandra de Sousa†‡ and Sarah A. Tishkoff*
Hg N, see Fig.3:
--Tishkoff S A , M. K. Gonder, B. M. Henn, H. Mortensen, A. Knight, C. Gignoux, N. Fernandopulle, G. Lema, T. B. Nyambo, U. Ramakrishnan, et al.(2007).History of Click-Speaking Populations of Africa Inferred from mtDNA and Y Chromosome Genetic Variation. Mol. Biol. Evol., 24(10): 2180 - 2195.
Ish, please shrink those charts they make it hard to read the thread because I have to keep scrolling left to right each and every line of a post just to read it. thx
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Ok, your post is childish and ridiculous but I will still answer you.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic.
That's a lie and mischaracterization of Obenga's works.
.
Shut up snake ass with your twisted lies.
Obenga never wrote about any relationship between Berber and Germanic.
Obenga without ambiguity classifies Berber as an African language family just as he classed Khoisan as an African language family.
You with your personal beef invent the lie that I said Obenga's Berber language family is his Negro-Egyptien language family.
Way back in 2007 I posted Obenga excluded Berber from both Negro-Egyptien and any relationship to Semitic or Egyptic (which Greenberg classed all three in AfroAsian).
You didn't follow the link before and I doubt you'll follow it now. Why? your interest is puffing your chest at my expense. Fat chance.
I'm sick of your **** you gotdamn lying freak.
You need to learn to calm the **** down and present your information without attempting character assassination, asshole.
^^^ My point of view is not related to an etymological question of what we call African depending on the context. The same way a person of African descent citizen of Japan (recently or not) could be called a Japanese; Any citizen of an African country could be called African in certain context (usually not used in medicine, archaeology, biology and forensic where we use the ancestral origin).
Berber have full ownership right on the continent as well as any citizen of African countries. Including Arabs and Europeans. In fact, Berbers migrated to the continent since a very long time ago (at least before 12000BP). Then they admixed with other Eurasian and African population at different proportions.
The question is whether or not Berbers are closely related to other African populations including Ancient Egyptians. Either genetically, historically, biologically, culturally, archaeologically, etc.
Linguistically, Obenga sees no relation between Berber and other African languages (Yoruba, Somali, Ancient Egyptian, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, etc). On this I am 100% right.
Genetically, this study ( Ancient DNA study of Maghreb specimen dating from around 12000BP) place mtDNA H,U and V carriers in Africa around 12000BP. While it's true U6 may have originated among that population in North Africa (possibly AFTER their arrival from Eurasian regions). The parent/basal haplogroups of the H, U and V haplogroup originated outside Africa. So ultimately Berber are people who originated outside Africa and are the product of the back migration of non-African people from Iberia/West Eurasia (carrying the mtDNA hg H, U, V) into the Maghreb a very long time ago. At this location they have grown to become their own people until foreign conquests. Linguistically and genetically they are not closely related to other African populations like (Yoruba, Somali, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, Ancient Egyptians, etc).
For example, in this map above we can see the MtDNA R haplogroup originated outside Africa (in Western Asia it seems). MtDNA R is parent to haplogroups H0, HV, H, V and U. And R originated outside Africa. QED
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
It's not about you being right or wrong it's about valid factual information of quoted sources, in this instance Obenga.
R u 10 yrs old or retarded? I wrote Obenga sees Berber as unrelated to the rest of the African languages 7 yrs ago.
========
As for the genetics it's like this kiddo.
The uniparentals support Berbers are primarily African.
Go argue with the raw data categorized exactly as each team of population geneticists decided which geography the haplogroups belong to (even though one assigns a haplogroup to a certain region while one assigns it to the opposite.
Sorry no pretty pictures for the intellectually challenged.
@ the ES readership
I have three autosome skylines that more than support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Waiting for the top slot of a fress page before I post them. Meanwhile all go ahead with filler as long as it's related to the thread's topic header.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Late to the party. WHat is your diagram describing? What's the bottom line? What;s the French translation say as to Tafloralt or Mechta Arbi?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Late to the party. WHat is your diagram describing? What's the bottom line? What;s the French translation say as to Tafloralt or Mechta Arbi? [/QB]
I already answered those questions a few posts after the one you replied to (notice what I put in bold letters):
Genetically, this study ( Ancient DNA study of Maghreb specimen dating from around 12000BP) place mtDNA H,U and V carriers in Africa around 12000BP. While it's true U6 may have originated among that population in North Africa (possibly AFTER their arrival from Eurasian regions). The parent/basal haplogroups of the H, U and V haplogroup originated outside Africa. So ultimately Berber are people who originated outside Africa and are the product of the back migration of non-African people from Iberia/West Eurasia (carrying the mtDNA hg H, U, V) into the Maghreb a very long time ago. At this location they have grown to become their own people until foreign conquests. MtDNA H, U and V are rare among African people beside North Africans and Berbers. Linguistically, according to Obenga, and genetically they are not closely related to other African populations like (Yoruba, Somali, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, Ancient Egyptians, etc).
For example, in this map above we can see the MtDNA R haplogroup originated outside Africa (in Western Asia it seems). MtDNA R is parent to haplogroups H0, HV, H, V and U. And R originated outside Africa. QED
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
It's Kefi and you were around and maybe read all the critiques made about it here on ES since 2005 when it came out.
Oh, please read the past pages of this thread. ARTU has taken to repeating himself.
Yes, I want a plethora of views for my thread but I mean who needs a broken record/skipping CD.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: It's Kefi and you were around and maybe read all the critiques made about it here on ES since 2005 when it came out.
Oh, please read the past pages of this thread. ARTU has taken to repeating himself.
Yes, I want a plethora of views for my thread but I mean who needs a broken record/skipping CD.
Kefi didn't lie about the haplogroup of the ancient Taforalt specimens. Don't be ridiculous.
The only question I have is how representative the remains in Taforalt were of the Maghreb as a whole. Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
The only question I have is how representative the remains in Taforalt were of the Maghreb as a whole. Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP. [/QB]
They are particular specifically to the Iberomaurusian culture. (also Afalou is another related varient at another Iberomaurusian site. No remains are represenataive because there were differnt cultures in the prehistoric Maghreb with different backgrounds
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Many of us do not understand that AIM/SNP and nRYDNA/MTDNA need to be considered TOGETHER
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Y chromosomal haplogroup profiles in north Africa aren't biologically informative, only historically. Not biologically informative in the sense that other AIMS do not corroborate the picture that the Berber Y chromosomal profile paints. So, for instance, we don't see a preponderance of East African specific ancestry in Berber populations in analyses that employ other (non Y chromosomal) AIMs. Historically informative in the sense their Y chromosomal profiles at least allow us to infer that Egyptian and/or Sudanese E-M81 males migrated there and somehow had such an impact that they artificially deflated Upper Palaeolithic Magrebi Y chromosomal predecessors, which in all likelihood included T-M184, as evinced by the Y chromosomal profiles of Tibbou and Fulani populations whose ancestors likely had contact with these pre-Berber speakers.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP. [/QB]
That's the problem with Google scholars like yourself. Regurgitating googled stuff like you knew it all along is bound to backfire because you're too crude to know how to verify your claims for accuracy. Most of the H and V lineages in n.Africa show no evidence of having existed before 12kya. The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde, you might find some of the Albania linguistics, possible berber connection discussed below intertesting. It's only some of page 1 of a forum discussion
first a little E genetics:
wiki:
Subclades of E-M78
There are four recognized subclades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. 2006.
E-V12 Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important subclade E-V32 which is very common among Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis. E-V13 This is the most common type of E-M215 found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans. E-V22 Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places. E-V65 Associated with North Africa, but also found in Italy and Spain. E-M521 Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. 2008
Albanian genetics:
Y-Dna The two haplogroups most strongly associated with Albanian people (E-V13 and J2b) are often considered to have arrived in Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic, early in the Holocene epoch. From here in the Balkans, it is thought, they spread to the rest of Europe.
The distribution of E-V13 in Europe Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[91] Most E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, possibly in the Balkans.
This is an interesting 12 page Europedia forum topic:
Garrick Regular Member
Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity
Berber languages are quite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers E haplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to North Africa and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabic and French.
I give the example of comparing Albanian words with languages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg (part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Arab and French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.
It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt.
English, Berbers, Albanian
1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit
say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)
my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)
we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)
than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.)
meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch)
fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)
father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb
thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l)
elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly)
2. Tamasheq
black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced as english ә, the: δә)
do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.)
rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.)
boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)
want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)
carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)
eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.)
fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)
health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)
_____________
Maciamo
Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa.
There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.
______________
Garrick Regular Member
Maciamo I knew Albanians who claimed that their roots are Egyptian/African. Albanian is also true took words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages but it is possible that their basic language is the AfroAsiatic language.
Researchers had long puzzled where it comes from the word Dardania. With knowledge of haplogroup, and the fact that the Albanians and the Berbers are of the same origin, and the Berbers have preserved their language (and dialects):
maybe the root word Dardania is discovered.
In the eastern half oh the Sudan, the common word (usually classed as Arabic) for a country or tribal area is Dar. The word is however nor an Arabic word really, though adopted and used by Arabs as such. It is pre-Arab (ie Berber word) for an "encampment," and from this meaning of "camp," Dar or Tar, with its variant Dala, acquired in many parts of the Sudan and the Sahara meaning "hill," since camps were frequently on a hill or elevated ground.
Cruciani et al (2007) estimated it but other researchers placed much closer. You can read (source: Wikipedia):
Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".
These numbers higlighted by Battaglia and Hassan are, I think, a lot more realistic. This period can also be connected with the creation of specific language groups within the Afro-Asian language family, which I will set the following posts.
These estimated years say to us more important things. This means that the E holders arrived to the Europe, Balkans much later than 10,000 years BC, perhaps before 6,000 years ago or 4,000 years or more later.
It has researchers also who dispute the thesis that the E carriers can be classified into Early farmers who, together with J and G carriers came to the Balkans (according to them only J & G remain Early farmers), in each case the E carriers came alone from Africa to Balkans rather than in pairs with J & G carriers.
________________
sturmgewehr Regular Member
This thread is as stupid as it can get.
First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.
You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.
First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.
The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.
there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.
First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.
If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.
Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.
If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.
Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents
_______________
Garrick Regular Member
What are you talking about that stupid someone can interpret your attitude in a negative means since there is no invariably the situation once and for all, attraction of science is in the fact that new research results and lead to changes and to new knowledge.
Albanian language has no relationship with any European language, and you can see that it is classified as a completely separate, not Germanic, or Slavic, or Romance, or Celtic, or the Baltic, etc. in general any European language family does not belong. When the languages were classified scientists did not have data of haplogroups.
When it was revealed that Haplogroup E originated from Africa (Somalia/Ethiopia), and when it was found that haplogroup E is by far the dominant among the Albanians, with the highest concentration is achieved among the Albanians in Kosovo (see map of Maciamo about the distribution of E haplogroups in Europe and peak in the Kosovo), then began to investigate idea whether the original Albanian language is close to any of the Hamitic, or more accurately Afroasiatic languages. Exactly those languages are in the area of origin, spread and concentration of Haplogroup E.
Between languages of the same Afroasiatic (early, Hamitic) family:
Cushitic, Omotic, Chadic, Egyptian and Berber,
obviously Berber languages attracted the most attention, although all other languages remain interesting to study the connection with today's Albanian.
Especially for this purpose is becoming explorers Proto-berber language, which is thought to exist prior to 9000.
Someone can read (source: Wikipedia):
“...But modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 8000~9000BP, the split from the common language from which modern Berber languages come may be as recent as 3000 BP, according to Naima Louali.”
If E carriers have not yet migrated to Europe at the time, which can be found at many researchers, it is easily possible for the Albanian language to connects with Proto-berber. Among the authors there is no agreement when E came to Europe, Balkans, from Africa, there are researchers who placed the period 4000 to 6000 years, some even close.
It is high possible that original Albanian language must come from Africa, since the origin is African (for example, among the Albanian researchers there are those that connect Albanians with the Egyptians and so on.), so that knowledge come from new researchs, and new theories and conclusions created.
So in Europe comparisons have emerged of the Albanian and Berber.
Among the various Berber dialects, there are many Berber words, which are similar to Albanian, and some words those who speak these languages reveals.
At the Albanian forums can be read Albanians put up pictures Berbers and affects where they are from and compare physical similarities with Albanians, the theme is not new, it is all written, I try to approach in the way of serious research and to point to this relationship, Y DNA, anthropological, linguistic, we can go on with the costumes, customs and so on.
To the observation that the Berber languages is lot arabized, okay, you can see that I pointed influence of Arabic and French (and Spanish among some Berbers populations), however, the Berbers who speak some of these dialects will notice whether the word original is Berber or adopted, from what I get, and an effort is worth only for those words that is sure to the original Berber and have not suffered the impact.
But it would be wonderful to Berbers involve in this discussion, then we can really all together to get to the exciting discoveries and insights, on movements and origin of population, for which the genetics and anthropology have found that the same common origin.
Thus, we can consider the many same or very similar the Berber and Albanian words, and it would be nice to the Berbers include and to discuss about it.
If you noticed, I pointed out that today's Albanian took a lot of words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages, but it is very likely that it is basically Afroasiatic language, and then it is a close family of languages, which I mentioned.
Is Albanian language closest Proto-berber or another group of languages of Afroasiatic family, science will investigate and determine, it is still investigating and trying to prove, and charm of science is exactly in that new research and new results lead to a change of existing attitudes, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.
Here are some more words from
Berber (Tamasheq) and Albanian (Shqipe):
stripe (eng.), sәrrett (berb.), shirit (alb.)
awl (eng.), endel (berb.), fëndyell (y alb. no pronounciation in English, between u and e)
grass matting (eng.), esabar (berb.), hasër bar (alb.)
stretch (eng.), ijj (berb.), shtrij (alb.)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
A Tuareg Man
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
There are many bogus elements in the structuring of MtDNA groupings. Africa is presented as having only 4. Thyey lo, L1, L2, and L3. Yet the other continents proliferate with MtDNA groupings
Given that it some groups migrated out of Africa only some 50,000 years ago while the humankind had existed in Africa for some 200,000 years, it follows logically that MtDNA haplogroups of Africa should be at least as many as the combined groups of Europe and Asia plus those 4 from Africa.
Colonial linguistics it still with us it seems. The whole idea of "Afroasiatic" as language family is just bogus when the languages in question had their origins in Africa. "Afroasiatic" is merely old-wine "Hamitico-Semitic" in a new post-colonial bottle.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: There are many bogus elements in the structuring of MtDNA groupings. Africa is presented as having only 4. Thyey lo, L1, L2, and L3. Yet the other continents proliferate with MtDNA groupings
Given that it some groups migrated out of Africa only some 50,000 years ago while the humankind had existed in Africa for some 200,000 years, it follows logically that MtDNA haplogroups of Africa should be at least as many as the combined groups of Europe and Asia plus those 4 from Africa.
Colonial linguistics it still with us it seems. The whole idea of "Afroasiatic" as language family is just bogus when the languages in question had their origins in Africa. "Afroasiatic" is merely old-wine "Hamitico-Semitic" in a new post-colonial bottle.
My research indicates that L3(M,N) probably expanded across Africa before it was taken to Europe.
.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ish, please shrink those charts they make it hard to read the thread because I have to keep scrolling left to right each and every line of a post just to read it. thx
It was a one time thing. To show the Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages. Relating to the suggested Hg's.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Late to the party. WHat is your diagram describing? What's the bottom line? What;s the French translation say as to Tafloralt or Mechta Arbi?
I already answered those questions a few posts after the one you replied to (notice what I put in bold letters):
Genetically, this study ( Ancient DNA study of Maghreb specimen dating from around 12000BP) place mtDNA H,U and V carriers in Africa around 12000BP. While it's true U6 may have originated among that population in North Africa (possibly AFTER their arrival from Eurasian regions). The parent/basal haplogroups of the H, U and V haplogroup originated outside Africa. So ultimately Berber are people who originated outside Africa and are the product of the back migration of non-African people from Iberia/West Eurasia (carrying the mtDNA hg H, U, V) into the Maghreb a very long time ago. At this location they have grown to become their own people until foreign conquests. MtDNA H, U and V are rare among African people beside North Africans and Berbers. Linguistically, according to Obenga, and genetically they are not closely related to other African populations like (Yoruba, Somali, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, Ancient Egyptians, etc).
For example, in this map above we can see the MtDNA R haplogroup originated outside Africa (in Western Asia it seems). MtDNA R is parent to haplogroups H0, HV, H, V and U. And R originated outside Africa. QED [/QB]
On what do you base mtDNA R originated outside of Africa?
Same question goes for HV.
Look at the Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineage, which I have posted. Take a look at M and N. According to that path it's not so absurd as you try to make it seem.
Please, show me archeological and anthropological evidence of your claims.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
A Tuareg Man
Don't be ridiculous, this is the closets you ever got to "a Tuareg".
Clown!
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, you might find some of the Albania linguistics, possible berber connection discussed below intertesting. It's only some of page 1 of a forum discussion
first a little E genetics:
wiki:
Subclades of E-M78
There are four recognized subclades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. 2006.
E-V12 Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important subclade E-V32 which is very common among Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis. E-V13 This is the most common type of E-M215 found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans. E-V22 Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places. E-V65 Associated with North Africa, but also found in Italy and Spain. E-M521 Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. 2008
Albanian genetics:
Y-Dna The two haplogroups most strongly associated with Albanian people (E-V13 and J2b) are often considered to have arrived in Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic, early in the Holocene epoch. From here in the Balkans, it is thought, they spread to the rest of Europe.
The distribution of E-V13 in Europe Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[91] Most E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, possibly in the Balkans.
E-V13 is barely found in Northwest or/ and Northeast Africa.
Northwest Africa is predominately E-M81.
Now, again. We know Northeast Africans have been taken to the Balkan and Central Europe as slaves. Is the "traditional" wardrobe coincidence?
Have forgotten that thread?
However, I often have heard Moroccans say that Albeniabs look somewhat like Moroccans.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
No matter what you read in a book the Temehu were not Berbers. The Temehu were C-Group people.Diop pointed out long ago that Eurocentrists have tried to project Berbers into the ancient history of African people.
The only genetic link of the Berbers to the east is with the Siwa Berbers who as pointed out earlier came to Siwa recently, and began to dominate the native Siwans.
I am amazed you made these statements relating to the Berber languages after Amun-Ra The Ultimate has posted evidence on the linguistic background of the Berber speakers which shows there lack of relationship to African languages. The Tuareg language is related to African languages--but not Berber.
Although I have posted numerous times comments on the origin of writing in Middle Africa you attempt to connect the Berbers to inscriptions that are spread from the Fezzan to Tichitt,that pre-date the Berber migration from Northwest Africa to Siwa.Moreover, you ignore the fact that numerous Mande speaking groups have writing in addition to Berbers. Since Tichitt was founded by Mande speakers, and the Berbers only recently migrated East, there is no way they wrote the inscriptions found from Fezzan to Tichitt.
.
Clyde you are looking at the fragmented and often confusing history of the languages often identified as Berber and trying to extrapolate African identity, or in this case NON African identity, from a language group. African identity cannot be boiled down to simple categories like languages. My point is that the African nomadic pastoral tradition in North Africa is ancient probably the oldest in the world. The Sahara desert has seen movements of populations over most of its history from the South and the East of Africa because for most of human history the ONLY humans on earth were in the South and East of Africa. East Africa is the home of all humans. Therefore, humans have been migrating in and around Africa longer than they have been migrating outside of Africa. Berber languages are thought by many to have originated among populations migrating in and between the Nile Valley and the Sahara. This population, however, is simply one subset of many populations that have been moving through the Sahara and the Sahel and there are many others who speak different languages as well. Therefore the point of the C-Group relationship is that you have a population that over time expanded from the area identified as a region where the ancestors of those who eventually migrated into the Sahara speaking Berber languages originated. This isn't ONLY about language. Genetics have already affirmed that the Tuareg have close ties to the Beja nomads, who are the modern day descendants of ancient Nile Valley Africans called "C-Group", which is another foreign label. But that is just a small part of a bigger picture as can be seen in the hot debates about the origin of the various lineages in North Africa, where many are African and represent more ancient migrations of Africans from the East of Africa. Which again proves the point that all human lineages, within and outside Africa, all ultimately originate in East Africa.
So it is a combination of linguistic, cultural and genetic information that shows the roots of Berber as originating in East Africa. And because we are talking of ancient movements in Arid Desert environments among nomadic populations which means that over time populations, languages and settlements have changed. That is why most of this is about reconstructing a history for Berber languages which is fraught with so much error.
Berber languages are African and have always been African no matter how "contentious", fragmented or confused the history.
Bottom line Clyde, we know you have been trying to claim Berber languages and by extension Berber "people" are European for a long time on this forum and elsewhere, but every time, especially here your ideas have been refuted.
Doug is going against the most prominent of all afrocentric scholars, Cheikh Anta Diop
It sounds like some closet unconscious Eurocentrism to me
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP.
That's the problem with Google scholars like yourself. Regurgitating googled stuff like you knew it all along is bound to backfire because you're too crude to know how to verify your claims for accuracy. Most of the H and V lineages in n.Africa show no evidence of having existed before 12kya.
Actually, I agree with your post beside the ridiculous part about google. Unless you pretend to be a great scholar and a person who never used googgle, it's just stupid. Anyway I didn't use googgle for this, but the Ancient DNA study of specimen at Taforalt (Maghreb):
This study says 12000BP not before 12000BP. So before 12000BP is only speculative based on the fact that those remains were labelled by the study to be from the iberomaurusian archaeological culture which is dated to have started before 12000BP.
Unless those European migrants quickly adopted the culture of the people already there, there's an informed possibility that they probably have been there before 12000BP. I have nothing to gain from this fact, but I'm interested in the truth, not what is convenient.
quote: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants . [/QB]
Thank you. I agree with you. You should talk to Tukuler or something. Those people are European migrants from a very ancient time. They then admixed with other Eurasian and African populations.
You say the Taforalt represent the remains of **recent** European immigrants. Accent on recent (aka 12000BP). Of course I wouldn't mind it, but it's not backed by any scientific data. At the moment we only have evidence of the presence of European migrants at about 12000BP on the Taforalt site. They are also from the iberomausitian culture (according to the study) which is dated to be from before 12000BP.
As I already mentioned, it's not clear that those people are representative of the Maghreb as a whole, even at that time period, other archaeological sites may be composed of remains from other haplogroups. Even the Iberomaurisian culture as a whole could be composed of people of different lineages, ethnic background and haplogroups. But again, it's all speculative unless we have ancient DNA or convincing archeological data. The only thing that is not speculative is the presence of European migrants in the Taforalt site at around 12000Bp.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You are not giving up... are you? Still holding to the coalescene age nonsense by Achilli. Even when there is no evidence of European males entering Africa. After Henn concluded the migration was one way based upon AIM. After proof that Saharawi carry more diverse haplotype HV/V...and the highest frequency R-V88(male) in North Africa. After coalescene age of H1/H3 is together is older in Africa.
Either slow or stubborn.
I guess they were ONLY male European immigrants...lol!
Literature major huh!?
quote:Originally posted by a ...:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP.
That's the problem with Google scholars like yourself. Regurgitating googled stuff like you knew it all along is bound to backfire because you're too crude to know how to verify your claims for accuracy. Most of the H and V lineages in n.Africa show no evidence of having existed before 12kya. The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants. [/QB]
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Stop fuming out of your behind, gramps. How does the phylogenetic structure and distribution of all HV lineages, support an African origin for mtDNA V, H1 and H3?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
It's Kefi and you were around and maybe read all the critiques made about it here on ES since 2005 when it came out.
Oh, please read the past pages of this thread. ARTU has taken to repeating himself.
Yes, I want a plethora of views for my thread but I mean who needs a broken record/skipping CD.
Kefi didn't lie about the haplogroup of the ancient Taforalt specimens. Don't be ridiculous.
That's stupid. Only U6 and L3 could've been there before 12k.
We have to look at projected ages of the Taforalt haplogroups. The L3 is much older than the H & V. JT is the one that could've been there before 12k.
The genome of epiPaleolithic Taforalt does most likely represent that of all Maurusian Maghreb.
There was no physical impediment (ice glaciers or permafrost) during the LGM preventing travel across the straight. Yet the industries and genetic paternals on either side are unique.
Only the maternals evidence possible contact. The ages of H1 and H3 does give reason to question if they are continental specific or actual more specific of a general Alboran origin.
Frigi 2010 officially questioned the possible origins of H1 & H3.
In any event there is no Iberian signature paternal haplogroup in Berbers or the Maghreb to correlate with H1, H3, etc. This supports an Alboran origin for H1 & H3 unless they are Amazon specific markers. (You know the story of the Amazons? Mistreated women abandoned their men moved to Africa set up completely matrifocal society -- fantastic mythology).
Of course any talk of paleolithic usage much less origin of Berber language in Iberia is the purest of pseudohistorical garbage fantasy.
The cultures/industries of the Maghreb and Iberia show no signs of sameness. Ibero-Maurusian is well known to be a misnomer.
There is no relationship between the Magdalene&Azilian of Iberia and the Maurusian of the Maghreb.
Osteo remains show epiPaleolithic Maghrebis differ from Iberians of that era in the direction of some characteristics used to stereotype Africans.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Never mind, since alTakruri's post wasn't directed towards me. And I don't want to give gramps Xyyman too much leeway to ignore my question.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
yeah...12000ya, European white women immigrated to Africa. Only a black pimp would believe that.
You are out of your element brother. Stick to the dozens with the lunatic.
In my one post I quoted four papers...and you didn't get it..yet you want to discuss this stuff with me.
Enjoy your dream of white women migrating to Africa.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Whatsamatter, gramps? Am I hitting a sensitive nerve?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Stop fuming out of your behind, gramps. How does the phylogenetic structure and distribution of all HV lineages, support an African origin for mtDNA V, H1 and H3?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Jackass...I hate dumbing things down. What are you? An illiterate clown...READ!! my man...and understand!! On page2 of this thread!!
Me sensitive? Ha! Ha! "I debate my peers, all others I teach".
Do you understand the significance of the following? Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
==
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: It really a good idea to periodically go back and read some of these older papers even if it is dated(2003). Here is an informative piece of data/information .
From : Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean S. Plaza1, F. Calafell1, Comas
Quote: ***** Simoni et al. 2000a; Richards et al. 2000). It has been suggested that haplogroup V originated and expanded from NE Iberia (Torroni et al. 1998; Torroni et al. 2001). In the European samples analysed, its frequency (which includes pre-V and V proper as defined by Torroni et al. 2001) ranges from 2.7% in Sardinia and Southern Italy to 10.4% in Basques, and is absent in Central Spaniards, Valencians, and Tuscans. Except in Algerians and Tunisians, haplogroup V has been found in all the samples analysed, with ****high frequencies among the Saharawi (17.9%) and Southern Berbers (10%). ****In order to elucidate the phylogenetic relationships between sequences, a network of V sequences was constructed (Figure 3). The network displayed a clear star-like pattern with all V sequences found in NW Africa close to the *****V sequence root type***** or with one or two added substitutions, whereas Italian and Iberian V sequences show a wider distribution of substitutions. OUT OF THE FIVE DIFFERENT V HAPLOTYPES FOUND IN NW AFRICA, THREE WERE THOSE THAT ARE MOST FREQUENT IN EUROPE, while only two were specific to NW Africa. A time depth for the haplogroup V of 13,700 ± 3,000 years was estimated when all sequences were included, similar to previous estimates (Torroni et al. 2001). The last section of the mtDNA phylogeny considered includes the Eurasian haplogroups W, I, X, and haplogroup M. Haplogroups W, I, and X are basically found in continental Italy, and some traces are found in Iberians, Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccan Arabs. The M sequences found in the analysed populations can be sorted into two different phylogenetic groups: haplogroups M1 and M5. It has been suggested that ******
Now the questions is how many of us understand what was said there? And the significance it it. I am indebted to you, Sage, for re-visiting the subject. I missed this the first time around.
What does the above excerpt tell us?
1. Torroni is either a liar or quack, which I have been saying all along. 2. There have been several waves of Africans entering Europe from NW from the Maghreb. 3. mtDNA-V seemed to have entered Europe through Iberia and to a lesser extent Sardinia into Italy. 4. Proving yet again. Massive influx of AMH into Europe through NW then Europe, consistent with Henn's SNP data pack. 5. Relevance? mtDNA HV and the high frequency in Berbers and Europe? [/QB]
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Who cares about frequencies and diversities. I'm asking you a question which gets to the bottom of things. The ancestral and sibling lineages aren't in North Africa; only the super derived H1, H3 and V extremity lineages. Explain the scenario in which this is the case and H1, H3 and V are still independant of any Eurasian influx. The body doesn't grow out of the extremities, now does it? Spit it out:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Stop fuming out of your behind, gramps. How does the phylogenetic structure and distribution of all HV lineages, support an African origin for mtDNA V, H1 and H3?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Never mind, since alTakruri's post wasn't directed towards me. And I don't want to give gramps Xyyman too much leeway to ignore my question.
I want my thread as robust as possible so I hope this is OK w/u
Furthermore, archaeological remains found in eastern Morocco (e.g. the Taforalt harpoon, [57]) or evidences of big-game fishing (in Nerja cave, Malaga) during the Upper Magdalenian (~12-10 kya) suggest the existence of contacts between the north and south of western Mediterranean shores.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
I've made some space...
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
To those who don't get it. The genetic data is now confirming Sergi was correct. All the megalithic structures found in the Mediterranean Islands and southern European mainland came from peoples of the Sahara North Africa. Africans have been entering Europe close to 50,000yrs.
ALL contemporary genetic comparing both shores have confirmed that.
I am open to ANYONE to prove otherwise. ANYONE?!
Of course a minimum amount of intelligence and analytical ability is required.
Notice, I let some RAMBLE on(ARTU etc)...because I understand they are learning.
Again ..based upon the genetic data provided, ignoring selective pictures, Berbers are indigenous Africans.
Truthteacher? has a video of Amazigh on ESR. I saw it a few days ago. I am beginning to recognize a true Amazihg. Their facial structure seems to be similar to the San, similar skin tone, but straight hair.
I hope some of you realize that some Amazihg also carry deepest clade of hg-A. Some researches are now speculating that AMH first appeared in NW/C Africa(Sahel). Sources cited....
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Brotherton 2013 based on Euro aDNA concluded
The calibrated ‘Neolithic’ rate infers a considerably younger coalescence date for hg H (10.9–19.1 kya) than those previously reported.
Brotherton-et-al-2013 Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Do you realize no Y DNA from the Taforalt has been presented? It may or may not have also been Eurasian to some extent. The M81 or other E is form analysis of modern berbers and M81 is thought to be only 5600 years old !
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
Sure.
All goofing aside, The ancestral and sibling lineages aren't in North Africa; only the super derived H1, H3 and V extremity lineages. Explain the scenario in which this is the case and H1, H3 and V are still independent of any Eurasian influx. The body doesn't grow out of the extremities, now does it?
BTW, gramps, if you don't want to answer it you can just say it. Just don't engage me again if you know you don't want your precious delusions trampled.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Achille states that mtDNA hg-H entered NW Africa FROM Europe about 12000ya but you know what ...ALL aDNA thus far (180 specimen)from Europe shows Zero presence of the said hg-H IN Europe as little as 5000ya.
Do you understand the significance of that my man?
Do I have to explain it to you? The Achilli speculation is BS. Get It!? I usual let clowns run their mouth until they go too far.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
No matter what you read in a book the Temehu were not Berbers. The Temehu were C-Group people.Diop pointed out long ago that Eurocentrists have tried to project Berbers into the ancient history of African people.
The only genetic link of the Berbers to the east is with the Siwa Berbers who as pointed out earlier came to Siwa recently, and began to dominate the native Siwans.
I am amazed you made these statements relating to the Berber languages after Amun-Ra The Ultimate has posted evidence on the linguistic background of the Berber speakers which shows there lack of relationship to African languages. The Tuareg language is related to African languages--but not Berber.
Although I have posted numerous times comments on the origin of writing in Middle Africa you attempt to connect the Berbers to inscriptions that are spread from the Fezzan to Tichitt,that pre-date the Berber migration from Northwest Africa to Siwa.Moreover, you ignore the fact that numerous Mande speaking groups have writing in addition to Berbers. Since Tichitt was founded by Mande speakers, and the Berbers only recently migrated East, there is no way they wrote the inscriptions found from Fezzan to Tichitt.
.
Clyde you are looking at the fragmented and often confusing history of the languages often identified as Berber and trying to extrapolate African identity, or in this case NON African identity, from a language group. African identity cannot be boiled down to simple categories like languages. My point is that the African nomadic pastoral tradition in North Africa is ancient probably the oldest in the world. The Sahara desert has seen movements of populations over most of its history from the South and the East of Africa because for most of human history the ONLY humans on earth were in the South and East of Africa. East Africa is the home of all humans. Therefore, humans have been migrating in and around Africa longer than they have been migrating outside of Africa. Berber languages are thought by many to have originated among populations migrating in and between the Nile Valley and the Sahara. This population, however, is simply one subset of many populations that have been moving through the Sahara and the Sahel and there are many others who speak different languages as well. Therefore the point of the C-Group relationship is that you have a population that over time expanded from the area identified as a region where the ancestors of those who eventually migrated into the Sahara speaking Berber languages originated. This isn't ONLY about language. Genetics have already affirmed that the Tuareg have close ties to the Beja nomads, who are the modern day descendants of ancient Nile Valley Africans called "C-Group", which is another foreign label. But that is just a small part of a bigger picture as can be seen in the hot debates about the origin of the various lineages in North Africa, where many are African and represent more ancient migrations of Africans from the East of Africa. Which again proves the point that all human lineages, within and outside Africa, all ultimately originate in East Africa.
So it is a combination of linguistic, cultural and genetic information that shows the roots of Berber as originating in East Africa. And because we are talking of ancient movements in Arid Desert environments among nomadic populations which means that over time populations, languages and settlements have changed. That is why most of this is about reconstructing a history for Berber languages which is fraught with so much error.
Berber languages are African and have always been African no matter how "contentious", fragmented or confused the history.
Bottom line Clyde, we know you have been trying to claim Berber languages and by extension Berber "people" are European for a long time on this forum and elsewhere, but every time, especially here your ideas have been refuted.
yeah! Yeah. blah! Blah! Blah. Start covering your assss.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
Sure.
All goofing aside, The ancestral and sibling lineages aren't in North Africa; only the super derived H1, H3 and V extremity lineages. Explain the scenario in which this is the case and H1, H3 and V are still independent of any Eurasian influx. The body doesn't grow out of the extremities, now does it?
BTW, gramps, if you don't want to answer it you can just say it. Just don't engage me again if you know you don't want your precious delusions trampled.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
I'm out.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
Again ..based upon the genetic data provided, ignoring selective pictures, Berbers are indigenous Africans.
xyyman if you agreed that a particualr berber from some particular berber group had 35% Eurasian ancestry and 65% African ancestry would you consider that person an Indigenous African?
give me a straight answer, no games or avoidance please
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm out.
If it you still cannot get it through your thick skull. Good god man! I don't want to be hard on you but you seem reasonably intelligent. Learn and grow!
ANTHROPOLOGIE International Journal of Human Diversity and Evolution Coverage: 1923-1941 (Vols. I-XIX) & 1962-2013 (Vols. 1-51) ISSN 0323-1119
Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA.
Dr Rym KEFI and Dr Eliane BERAUD-COLOMB. U600 INSERM-FRE2059 CNRS Laboratoire d'Immunologie, Hôpital de Sainte-Marguerite- Marseille- France.
II- Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco).
Abstract The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region. Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Bekada's (2013, Pereira ed.) data
Clyde this genetic data could be used to argue that the berbers are near 50% African or more, 60, 75% in some cases perhaps
And using your assessments of M1 being African or other haplogroups you think are in fact African and not Eurasian the percentages of Africna could be even higher
what do you say about this?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Do you realize no Y DNA from the Taforalt has been presented? It may or may not have also been Eurasian to some extent. The M81 or other E is form analysis of modern berbers and M81 is thought to be only 5600 years old !
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
Leave it to you to take "Amazons" seriously. My take is H1'3 developed autochthonously throughout Alboran concurrently ultimately deriving from some Levant/Iraq parent H. But that's just my guess work since all the puzzle pieces don't fit.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusian.
The possible nrY's of Maurusians can be deduced from which nrY is old enough and noted to be in or near the Maghreb. This can be assessed fromliving populations as ancient nrY is still not replicable afaik. Of course the result will only be hypothetical.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] I'm out.
If it you still cannot get it through your thick skull. Good god man!
1. MtDNA hg-H in Africa 12000ya.
2. MtDNA hg-H NOT in Europe until about 4-5000ya.
In human mitochondrial genetics, Haplogroup H is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that likely originated in Southwest Asia[1] 20,000-25,000 YBP. chilli A, Rengo C, Magri C, et al. (November 2004)
It was carried to Europe by migrations c. 20-25,000 years ago, and spread with population of the southwest of the continent.[3][4] Its arrival was roughly contemporary with the rise of the Gravettian culture. The spread of subclades H1, H3 and the sister haplogroup V reflect a second intra-European expansion from the Franco-Cantabrian region after the last glacial maximum, c. 13,000 years ago
^ Jump up to: a b c d e f g Achilli A, Rengo C, Magri C, et al. (November 2004). "The Molecular Dissection of mtDNA Haplogroup H Confirms That the Franco-Cantabrian Glacial Refuge Was a Major Source for the European Gene Pool". American Journal of Human Genetics 75 (5): 910–8. doi:10.1086/425590. PMC 1182122. PMID 15382008. ^ Jump up to: a b van Oven M, Kayser M (February 2009). "Updated comprehensive phylogenetic tree of global human mitochondrial DNA variation". Human Mutation 30 (2): E386–94. doi:10.1002/humu.20921. PMID 18853457. ^ Jump up to: a b c d e Pereira L, Richards M, Goios A, et al. (January 2005). "High-resolution mtDNA evidence for the late-glacial resettlement of Europe from an Iberian refugium". Genome Research 15 (1): 19–24. doi:10.1101/gr.3182305. PMC 540273. PMID 15632086. Jump up ^ Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, et al. (November 2000). "Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool". American Journal of Human Genetics 67 (5): 1251–76. doi:10.1016/S0002-9297(07)62954-1. PMC 1288566. PMID 11032788.
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Claudio Ottoni equal contributor,
Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor,
Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,
Alessandro Achilli,
Cristina Martínez-Labarga,
Gianfranco Biondi,
Antonio Torroni,
Olga Rickards mail
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^Yeah. Quote decade old studies...
Listen man. Read above. There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry. You still don't get it. It is label put to genetic markers found in Europe. But it did not originate in Europe!! That is the point of my/Your Kefi quote. sigh!!!
If the live data is correct hg-H is present in Africa 12000ya(Kefi) but ABSENT in Europe 5000ya. Does Achille hypothesis make any sense now? brrrr!!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
Again ..based upon the genetic data provided, ignoring selective pictures, Berbers are indigenous Africans.
xyyman if you agreed that a particualr berber from some particular berber group had 35% Eurasian ancestry and 65% African ancestry would you consider that person an Indigenous African?
give me a straight answer, no games or avoidance please
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] ^Yeah. Quote decade old studies...
Listen man. Read above. There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry. You still don't get it. It is label put to genetic markers found in Europe.
In the beginning there was only one haplogroup of humans
Then people spread into different parts of African and different haplogroups evolved in different parts of Africa. M81 for instance is believed to be only 5600 years old
Similarly people later left Africa and other new haplogroups evolved outside of Africa.
Now explain your denialist viewpoint
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Sorry for redundancy but I can't let that 9 year old Kefi slide get posted without proper rejoinder.
A little basic math lesson.
Kefi's table has 23 entries.
Three Taf V entries were reduced to one, leaving a base of 21 entries.
Kefi has: * local North African U6 at 9.5% (2/21) * presumed foreign H U JT V at 90.5% (but 18/21 = 85.7%) * presumed "sub-Sudanese" L3/M/N at 0% (but 1/21 = 4.8%)
Note that 9.5 + 85.7 = 95.2 not 100
To arrive at 90.5% for H U JT V Kefi had to add the sub-Sudanese 4.8% to the foreign 85.7%. Kefi, with a stroke of the pen and hoping no one would notice, added sub-Sudanese L3/M/N to the Eurasiatic component.
Kefi has been dishonest and biased against non-local Africans in her aDNA report on Taforalt as her fudging of the stats clearly shows. In her drive to disallow what she sees as sub-Sudanese Maurusian founders Kefi failed to announce possible L clades in her 2005 report though in 2009 she admits Sudani (or Sudani-like "genes") in Holocene Maghreb.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
WTF are you rambling about now?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] ^Yeah. Quote decade old studies...
Listen man. Read above. There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry. You still don't get it. It is label put to genetic markers found in Europe.
In the beginning there was only one haplogroup of humans
Then people spread into different parts of African and different haplogroups evolved in different parts of Africa. M81 for instance is believed to be only 5600 years old
Similarly people later left Africa and other new haplogroups evolved outside of Africa.
Now explain your denialist viewpoint
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] ^Yeah. Quote decade old studies...
I forgot to put the date on this one
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Claudio Ottoni equal contributor,
Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor,
Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,
Alessandro Achilli,
Cristina Martínez-Labarga,
Gianfranco Biondi,
Antonio Torroni,
Olga Rickards
2010 Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am up to date on your math disclosure Sage. I read and understand before I comment. I read the thread.
I am citing Kefi because of her disclosure showing the presence of hg-H in Africa 12000ya. while it is NOT found in Europe. Which goes hand in hand to what I have been saying all along.
Assuming her work was vetted.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
white European women hunter gatherers entering Africa...sheesh!! Leave to Hollywood...Charlies Angels
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
L3 or M or N,, question mark
on one individual of the 23
nevertheless 20+ individuals having Eurasian DNA In 12k BP North Africa, prehistoric back migration proven
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am up to date on your math disclosure Sage. I read and understand before I comment. I read the thread.
I am citing Kefi because of her disclosure showing the presence of hg-H in Africa 12000ya. while it is NOT found in Europe. Which goes hand in hand to what I have been saying all along.
Assuming her work was vetted.
H originated in Southwest Asia and was carried to Europe by migrations c. 20-25,000 years ago
February 2009). "Updated comprehensive phylogenetic tree of global human mitochondrial DNA variation". Human Mutation 30 (2): E386–94. doi:10.1002/humu.20921.
_______________________________
^^^ 2009
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry.
Right, if you examined the DNA of a white South African and no one told you it was a white South African, you wouldn't know
(xyyman's world)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You have a few loose screws. Does that make any sense in light with what is published on aDNA.
Let me guess ...from South West Asia to North Africa(west)? 12000ya. Then 7000y!!! later from South West Asia to Iberia. That is really a horrendous script. I have seen better scripted movies on USA network.
That is why I don't argue hypotheticals. It can be circular and a waste of time. Stick to the FACTS...ie published data.
is there aDNA in south west Asia or comparative data between South West asia and North Afica. Something RECENT using MODERN analytical techniques. Even Henn admitted(in her infamous paper) based upon AIM that North Africans and Arabians separated about 40Kya.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am up to date on your math disclosure Sage. I read and understand before I comment. I read the thread.
I am citing Kefi because of her disclosure showing the presence of hg-H in Africa 12000ya. while it is NOT found in Europe. Which goes hand in hand to what I have been saying all along.
Assuming her work was vetted.
H originated in Southwest Asia and was carried to Europe by migrations c. 20-25,000 years ago
February 2009). "Updated comprehensive phylogenetic tree of global human mitochondrial DNA variation". Human Mutation 30 (2): E386–94. doi:10.1002/humu.20921.
_______________________________
^^^ 2009
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
To those who don't get it. The genetic data is now confirming Sergi was correct. All the megalithic structures found in the Mediterranean Islands and southern European mainland came from peoples of the Sahara North Africa. Africans have been entering Europe close to 50,000yrs.
ALL contemporary genetic comparing both shores have confirmed that.
I am open to ANYONE to prove otherwise. ANYONE?!
Of course a minimum amount of intelligence and analytical ability is required.
Notice, I let some RAMBLE on(ARTU etc)...because I understand they are learning.
Again ..based upon the genetic data provided, ignoring selective pictures, Berbers are indigenous Africans.
Truthteacher? has a video of Amazigh on ESR. I saw it a few days ago. I am beginning to recognize a true Amazihg. Their facial structure seems to be similar to the San, similar skin tone, but straight hair.
I hope some of you realize that some Amazihg also carry deepest clade of hg-A. Some researches are now speculating that AMH first appeared in NW/C Africa(Sahel). Sources cited....
I happen to know a Tamazight exactly like that. And when I say exactly, I mean exactly. Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am up to date on your math disclosure Sage. I read and understand before I comment. I read the thread.
I am citing Kefi because of her disclosure showing the presence of hg-H in Africa 12000ya. while it is NOT found in Europe. Which goes hand in hand to what I have been saying all along.
Assuming her work was vetted.
H originated in Southwest Asia and was carried to Europe by migrations c. 20-25,000 years ago
February 2009). "Updated comprehensive phylogenetic tree of global human mitochondrial DNA variation". Human Mutation 30 (2): E386–94. doi:10.1002/humu.20921.
_______________________________
^^^ 2009
So what was there before the existence of Hg H*? Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
L3 or M or N,, question mark
on one individual of the 23
nevertheless 20+ individuals having Eurasian DNA In 12k BP North Africa, prehistoric back migration proven
L3, M and N carry nuclear resolutions to H*. This is what you don't get. And ironically these were already in North Africa, coming from East Africa.
Physical anthropology and archeology is telling us that OOA took place.
This is why it can't be due to back migration.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] I'm out.
If it you still cannot get it through your thick skull. Good god man!
1. MtDNA hg-H in Africa 12000ya.
2. MtDNA hg-H NOT in Europe until about 4-5000ya.
In human mitochondrial genetics, Haplogroup H is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that likely originated in Southwest Asia[1] 20,000-25,000 YBP. chilli A, Rengo C, Magri C, et al. (November 2004)
It was carried to Europe by migrations c. 20-25,000 years ago, and spread with population of the southwest of the continent.[3][4] Its arrival was roughly contemporary with the rise of the Gravettian culture. The spread of subclades H1, H3 and the sister haplogroup V reflect a second intra-European expansion from the Franco-Cantabrian region after the last glacial maximum, c. 13,000 years ago
^ Jump up to: a b c d e f g Achilli A, Rengo C, Magri C, et al. (November 2004). "The Molecular Dissection of mtDNA Haplogroup H Confirms That the Franco-Cantabrian Glacial Refuge Was a Major Source for the European Gene Pool". American Journal of Human Genetics 75 (5): 910–8. doi:10.1086/425590. PMC 1182122. PMID 15382008. ^ Jump up to: a b van Oven M, Kayser M (February 2009). "Updated comprehensive phylogenetic tree of global human mitochondrial DNA variation". Human Mutation 30 (2): E386–94. doi:10.1002/humu.20921. PMID 18853457. ^ Jump up to: a b c d e Pereira L, Richards M, Goios A, et al. (January 2005). "High-resolution mtDNA evidence for the late-glacial resettlement of Europe from an Iberian refugium". Genome Research 15 (1): 19–24. doi:10.1101/gr.3182305. PMC 540273. PMID 15632086. Jump up ^ Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, et al. (November 2000). "Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool". American Journal of Human Genetics 67 (5): 1251–76. doi:10.1016/S0002-9297(07)62954-1. PMC 1288566. PMID 11032788.
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Claudio Ottoni equal contributor,
Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor,
Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,
Alessandro Achilli,
Cristina Martínez-Labarga,
Gianfranco Biondi,
Antonio Torroni,
Olga Rickards mail
How is that possible, when other studies are saying that modern Europeans entered Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, by a migrating farming culture from the mid-east, around 8-6 Kya. And from Northern (Northeast) Europe onwards migration took place during 20 Kya.
Clyde proposes them as a San population:
quote:"others like Predomost and to a lesser degree Grimaldi and Teviec, are more prognathic like Skhul 5."
--Marta Mirazón Lahr. 2005. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity:
quote: Here, we analysed the mitochondrial DNA of prehistoric remains from archaeological sites dated to 7,500 and 3,500 years Before Present. These sites are located in North East Europe, a region that displays a significant cultural and linguistic diversity today but for which no ancient human DNA was available before. We show that prehistoric hunter-gatherers of North East Europe were genetically similar to other European foragers. We also detected a prehistoric genetic input from Siberia, followed by migrations from Western Europe into North East Europe.
[...]
We identified remarkable genetic dissimilarities between prehistoric and modern-day North East Europeans/Saami, which suggests an important role of post-Mesolithic migrations from Western Europe and subsequent population replacement/extinctions. This work demonstrates how ancient DNA can improve our understanding of human population movements across Eurasia.
[...]
First, ancestors of the Saami were suggested to have reached Fennoscandia from Western Europe along the Atlantic cast of Norway as part of the expansion of Mesolithic post-Ahrensburgian cultures (Fosna-Hensbacka and Komsa) in the early Holocene (~10,000–11,000 yBP). Alternatively, the Saami were proposed to find their origins in Mesolithic post-Swiderian cultures (Kunda, Veretye, Suomusjärvi), which had moved from Poland into NEE also in the early Holocene [24].
quote: Although it was not possible to determine a contribution of Neolithic farmers to the Caucasian gene pool, the principal component analysis showed clear differences between these populations and those of Europe, Siberia and Asia. No evidence of correlation between genetic and linguistic data in our populations was disclosed.
Armenians are a separate ethnic group, which originated from Neolithic tribes of the Armenian Uplands. In the 12th- 11th centuries BC...
However, we cannot exclude a Neolithic contribution to the contemporary gene pool. The possible reason for the absence of the frequency distribution gradient can be genetic drift, reinforced by isolation that could conceal the influence of Neolithic farmers on the Caucasus populations [1,21].
While an Alu insertion marker does not have enough power of resolution to assess the contribution of the influence of Neolithic farmers on the Caucasian gene pool, it clearly separates both South and North Caucasus populations (except Karanogays) from Siberian and Asian populations.
--Litvinov S* et al.
BJMG 11/2 (2008) 25-30 10.2478/v10034-008-0030-0
ALU INSERTION POLYMORPHISMS IN POPULATIONS OF THE SOUTH CAUCASUS
quote:
In Europe, the Neolithic transition (8,000–4,000 B.C.) from hunting and gathering to agricultural communities was one of the most important demographic events since the initial peopling of Europe by anatomically modern humans in the Upper Paleolithic (40,000 B.C.). However, the nature and speed of this transition is a matter of continuing scientific debate in archaeology, anthropology, and human population genetics. To date, inferences about the genetic make up of past populations have mostly been drawn from studies of modern-day Eurasian populations, but increasingly ancient DNA studies offer a direct view of the genetic past. We genetically characterized a population of the earliest farming culture in Central Europe, the Linear Pottery Culture (LBK; 5,500–4,900 calibrated B.C.) and used comprehensive phylogeographic and population genetic analyses to locate its origins within the broader Eurasian region, and to trace potential dispersal routes into Europe. We cloned and sequenced the mitochondrial hypervariable segment I and designed two powerful SNP multiplex PCR systems to generate new mitochondrial and Y-chromosomal data from 21 individuals from a complete LBK graveyard at Derenburg Meerenstieg II in Germany. These results considerably extend the available genetic dataset for the LBK (n = 42) and permit the first detailed genetic analysis of the earliest Neolithic culture in Central Europe (5,500–4,900 calibrated B.C.). We characterized the Neolithic mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity and geographical affinities of the early farmers using a large database of extant Western Eurasian populations (n = 23,394) and a wide range of population genetic analyses including shared haplotype analyses, principal component analyses, multidimensional scaling, geographic mapping of genetic distances, and Bayesian Serial Simcoal analyses. The results reveal that the LBK population shared an affinity with the modern-day Near East and Anatolia, supporting a major genetic input from this area during the advent of farming in Europe. However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic.
[...]
The 11 widespread haplotypes are mainly basal (i.e., constituting a basal node within the corresponding hg) for Western Eurasian mitochondrial hgs H, HV, V, K, T, and W. While these haplotypes are relatively uninformative for identifying genetic affiliations to extant populations, this finding is consistent within an ancient population (5,500–4,900 cal B.C., i.e., prior to recent population expansions), in which basal haplotypes might be expected to be more frequent than derived haplotypes (e.g., end tips of branches within hgs). The next ten LBK haplotypes were unequally spread among present-day populations and for this reason potentially contain information about geographical affinities.
[...]
PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
What may be the oldest fragments of the modern human genome found yet have now been revealed — DNA from the 7,000-year-old bones of two cavemen unearthed in Spain, researchers say.
These findings suggest the cavemen there were not the ancestors of the people found in the region today, investigators added.
Scientists have recently sequenced the genomes of our closest extinct relatives, the Neanderthals and the Denisovans. When it came to our lineage, the oldest modern human genomes recovered yet came from Ötzi the Iceman, a 5,300-year-old mummy found in the Alps in 1991. Researchers have salvaged DNA from even older human cells, but this comes from the mitochondria that generate energy for our bodies, and not from the nucleus where our chromosomes are housed. (Mitochondrial DNA is passed down only by mothers.)
Now researchers have rescued fragments of genomes from the remains of two cavemen unearthed in northern Spain.
"These are the oldest partial genomes from modern human prehistory," researcher Carles Lalueza-Fox, a paleogeneticist at the Spanish National Research Council, told LiveScience.
The skeletons of two young adult males were discovered by chance in 2006 by cave explorers in a cavern high in the Cantabrian mountain range, whose main entrance is found at 4,920 feet (1,500 meters) altitude. Winters there are notably cold, which helped preserve the DNA in the bones.
These bones date back to the Mesolithic period, before agriculture spread to the Iberian Peninsula with Neolithic settlers from the Middle East. These cavemen were hunter-gatherers, judging by the ornament that one was found with of red-deer canines embroidered onto a cloth.
The scientists recovered 1.34 percent and 0.5 percent of the human genomes from the bones of these two cave men. Analyses revealed that current populations of the Iberian Peninsula, which includes Spain, Portugal and Andorra, are not genetically linked with these ancient hunter-gatherers. Instead, these cavemen were closer genetically to the current populations of northern Europe.
"There are many works that claim the Basques [of the Iberian Peninsula] could be descendants from Mesolithics that became isolated in the Basque country," Lalueza-Fox said. "We found the modern Basques are genetically not related to these two individuals."
The scientists also recovered the complete mitochondrial DNA of one of these cavemen. This revealed that European populations during the Mesolithic were very uniform genetically.
"Despite their geographical distance, individuals from the regions corresponding to the current England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland and Spain shared the same mitochondrial lineage," Lalueza-Fox said. "These hunters-gatherers shared nomadic habits and had a common origin."
The researchers now aim to complete the genomes of both cavemen. Such data could help "explore genes that have been modified with the arrival of the Neolithic in the European populations," Lalueza-Fox said.
The 2 wannabe black Africans, euroclown 'xyyman' and 'Trollkillah # Ish Gebor', are back with their old trickery of trying to confuse people with stupidity and crazy theory.
Even swenet one of their own tried to explain to them the basics of haplogroups without any impact on them.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
@ the ES readership
I have three autosome skylines that more than support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Waiting for the top slot of a fress page before I post them. Meanwhile all go ahead with filler as long as it's related to the thread's topic header.
I'm sure the ES readership is waiting for you to post this. What are you waiting for another new page?
As for the local contribution, don't be stupid, even Swenet explained it to you. Even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. It's parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia. If you can't understand that, you're an idiot.
Tukuler read this. :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
Take your time: Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As I said, you are a brotha so you are free to babble on. Great pics you posted when you first joined. Nice thread and work on the Green Sahara.
First we had a black pimp from Holland fantasizing white European women hunter gatherers migrating into Africa from Iberia. Now the continental brothas are fantasizing about nomadic Arabic women migrating into Africa without their men. What is it with you brotha and light skin women?. Next you will theorizing that male hg-E back migrated into Africa. Hold on! Cruiciani did that already. Lol!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
L3 or M or N,, question mark
on one individual of the 23
nevertheless 20+ individuals having Eurasian DNA In 12k BP North Africa, prehistoric back migration proven
L3, M and N carry nuclear resolutions to H*. This is what you don't get. And ironically these were already in North Africa, coming from East Africa.
Physical anthropology and archeology is telling us that OOA took place.
This is why it can't be due to back migration.
You missed the point of my post I was talking about 20+ individuals with H, U. JT, V
not the one individual who was L3 or M or N
>> 20+ individuals with H, U. JT, V means back migration from Eurasia 12k Bp
If we add one individual who might have been L3 or M or N it doesn't change those other hgs
Now listen up you and xyyman:
If genetic material recovered from a tooth of La Brana man in Spain that had markers for dark skin there is no longer need to fear "back migration from Europe"
> If they had dark skin you can relax
--blacks win, all of us
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Again. You are looking at this wrong.
Not only La Brana. Over ****180**** aDNA studies were done on ancient Europeans. Results show that mtDNA hg-H was NOT present in Europe until about 3000BC. This is NOT a hypothesis. This LIVE data.
Achilli was speculating. He was wrong!!!!
Live data has also shown hg-H present in Africa 12000ya. Get it!
As I said aDNA will bring the delusion to an end. It started with the Amarna mummies.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
mtDNA hg-H was NOT present in Europe until about 3000BC. This is NOT a hypothesis. This LIVE data.
you should be citing the title of the article title when you say that but H is not the only Hg discussed.
The following article describes a pronounced population increase at ~7000 BC " incompatible with traditional views"
not 3000BC
You also only consider Africa and Europe but for get about the Near East and Caucus
Received 20 September 2012 Accepted 27 February 2013 Published 23 April 2013
Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans
Paul Brotherton et al
Abstract Abstract• Accession codes• References• Author information• Supplementary information Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this ‘real-time’ genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.
Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this ‘real-time’ genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.
The demographic reconstruction, which is based on direct calibration points, has major implications for understanding post-glacial human history in Europe. Our new estimate is that the majority of present-day hg H lineages were carried into Central, Northern and Eastern Europe via a post-glacial human population expansion before the Holocene (12 kya)13. Our data complement a recent study, based on present-day mt genomes, which describes a pronounced population increase at ~7000 BC (interpreted as a Neolithic expansion into Europe), but followed by a slow population growth until the present day26. By including ancient DNA data from across the critical time points in question, our skyride plot corrects for missing temporal data and suggests substantial growth of hg H from the beginning of the Neolithic and continuing throughout the entire Neolithic period. This emphasizes the role of farming practices and cultural developments in the demographic expansions inferred in subsequent time periods, which have not yet been explored genetically.
The team used DNA extracted from bone and teeth samples from prehistoric human skeletons to sequence a group of maternal genetic lineages that are now carried by up to 45 per cent of Europeans.
“This is the first high-resolution genetic record of these lineages through time, and it is fascinating that we can directly observe both human DNA evolving in ‘real-time’, and the dramatic population changes that have taken place in Europe,” said Dr Wolfgang Haak of the University of Adelaide’s Australian Center for Ancient DNA, co-author of a paper published in the journal Nature Communications.
“We can follow over 4,000 years of prehistory, from the earliest farmers through the early Bronze Age to modern times.”
“The record of this maternally inherited genetic group, called Haplogroup H, shows that the first farmers in Central Europe resulted from a wholesale cultural and genetic input via migration, beginning in Turkey and the Near East where farming originated and arriving in Germany around 7500 years ago,” explained co-author Dr Paul Brotherton of the University of Huddersfield, UK.
Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective U Roostalu1,*, I Kutuev*†,
several hg H subclades in Near East and Southern Caucasus region coalesce to the pre-LGM period. Furthermore, irrespective of their common origin, significant differences between the distribution of hg H sub-hgs in Europe and in the Near East and South Caucasus imply limited post-LGM maternal gene flow between these regions. In a contrast, the North Caucasus mitochondrial gene pool has received an influx of hg H variants, arriving from the Ponto-Caspian/East European area
The hg H encompasses over 40% of the total mtDNA variation in most of Europe. Its frequency declines toward the East and South, but in the Near East, the Caucasus and Central Asia, its frequency is still as high as 10–30% (Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; Tambets et al. 2000; Al-Zahery et al. 2003; Achilli et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004; Metspalu et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004;
The present-day variation of hg H suggests that this mtDNA clade arose outside Europe before the LGM (Torroni et al. 1998; Richards et al. 2000; Loogväli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005). In our attempt to expose pre-LGM limbs of hg H, we have characterized here the phylogeography of H13, which is one of the most diverse sub-hgs in the Near East and the Caucasus. It has a coalescence age of about 31,000 YBP according to HVS-1 (table 1) and about 25,000 or 19,000 YBP when calculated using coding region mutations. These dates place its origin before the LGM because the coalescence age, signaling the beginning of the expansion, is only the minimal absolute age of the clade.
It should be stressed that for the majority of hg H subclades, the signal of expansion in the Near East and the Caucasus lies in a time frame between 18,000 and 10,000 YBP (table 1).
__________________________________________
It may depend on where the oldest remains are carrying Haplogroup H are I'm not sure
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Did you read what you just posted? "Real time", I said "live" data. Same difference? Kefi proved hg-H in Africa 12000ya. The sources you cited proved, using live data, H was not present in Europe.....or the middle east. OK I am off by oneK.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
L3 or M or N,, question mark
on one individual of the 23
nevertheless 20+ individuals having Eurasian DNA In 12k BP North Africa, prehistoric back migration proven
.
No problem that Kefi question marks all her CRS and H too, huh?. Your MO is to call into doubt any African things but even the flimsiest of a Euro supposition is good as gold to you.
Your math is about as good as Kefi's with the sleight of hand. 18 does not equal 20 nor are all of the 18 unquestionably Eurasian.
Well we know you're incapable of independently critically examining geneticsts' reports but I can.
There are six possible L lineages in the Taforalt samples. Most people understand L3/M/N is there because M and N are also known as L3M and L3N.
The point is not to deny any of the projections instead of covering up and acting like Kefi who discounted "subSudanese" sample Taf VIII as a Maurusian founder marker.
Thing is H1 and H3 aren't old enough to have been there when the Maurusian industry/culture arose. Neither is V. JT could be old enough. One geneticist proposes H1 didn't enter Africa until 9k.
A further partial confirmation of my non-L3 finds for Kefi's Taforalt samples is the fact of non-L3 haplogroups in Iberia and elsewhere in Europe. They didn't fly there. All aboard! Last stop before Iberia? Morocco.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Guess what? There are other people reading this than you.
Anyway I think Kefi used a date already given to the fossils not that she arrived at it from aDNA. aDNA is known to be fragmented so no way was it possible to arrive at solid CRS conclusions as the aDNA has dropouts which not being there cannot be compared to anything.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am up to date on your math disclosure Sage. I read and understand before I comment. I read the thread.
I am citing Kefi because of her disclosure showing the presence of hg-H in Africa 12000ya. while it is NOT found in Europe. Which goes hand in hand to what I have been saying all along.
Assuming her work was vetted.
Hmmm. Interesting how no one's touched this since Kefi.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Just re-read Kivisild 2004 paper. He concluded that mtDNA macro groups M, N, R(R0)preHV , all originated in Africa. I posted on HV already. He provided data. I will post on it when I get time, on ESR. In another topic thread.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
.
Go away you bother me, boy. Try digesting the two autosomal skylines I already posted. Otherwise shut up and wait or do it yourself.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That is correct. No one has touched this since Kefi. At least no one has published since Kefi. Maybe they don't like what they saw....
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Thing is H1 and H3 aren't old enough to have been there when the Maurusian industry/culture arose. Neither is V. JT could be old enough. One geneticist proposes H1 didn't enter Africa until 9k.
I dont understand the comment I thought they detected H. U, JT and V
and that what you are saying maybe there was African L there additionally in an individual or a few (?)
Are you saying that H. JT and V were not detected at Taforalt? That is was a mistake or lie?
African L being present in Africa would be unremarkable. The other Hgs however are remarkable in that there being in Africa at that early 12K BP date
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Haplogroup HV derives from the Haplogroup R0 (which in turn derives from haplogroup R). HV is also the ancestral haplogroup to Haplogroup H and Haplogroup V.
Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout West Asia and Southeastern Europe, including Iran, Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia.[citation needed] It is also found to a much lesser extent in parts of East Africa, mainly in the population of Sudanese Arabs, where the frequency of Eurasian ancestry is 22.5%,[3] and a very high frequency of Y-chromosome Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) is also found.[4]
A 2003 study was published reporting on the mtDNA sequencing of the bones of two 24,000-year-old anatomically modern humans of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy. The study showed one was of either haplogroup HV or R0
______________________________________________
Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese: Restricted gene flow, concordance with language, geography, and history
Hisham Y. Hassan1, Peter A. Underhill2, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim1,* Article first published online: 2008
I don't want to screw up the thread. I will post more in another thread.
Some of us can THINK. I posted this about 6 months ago. My thoughts werent as clear then as now. There is a reason why M and the sub-clades are found in Asia while N and it subclades are found to the North in Europe.
I recently found out Kivislid et al agrees with me.
Damn!! I am good.
More to come on ESR or another therad.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Stupid is as stupid does.
~20k beginning of Maurusian culture/industry. ~12k proposed date of Kefi's CRS H V.
Regardless of any Iberian components only her L3M U6 coalesced long enough ago to be "Ibero"Maurusian founders. JT could have been at the start too.
2 of the 4 Kefi H? samples could be L. 2 of the 3 Kefi JT samples could be L. 1 of the 2 Kefi _V samples could be L.
Considering that Maurusians were likely extremely endogenous, foreign women would be advantageous and boost percentages of live births and children living on to ages old enough to reproduce.
Were they more fertile they would become more numerous than autochthonous U6 M1 L3.
The actual Taforalt skeletons do not match Iberian skeletons so they do not represent any migrants. They are strictly local and those of non-African genetic precedents would be mixed descendents of migrants.
As for Kefi's non-CRS H?, I suspect it is autochthonous to Alboran. If so it's not actually specific to either continent.
It should be needless to say the U6 M1 & L3 founders of Maurusian culture/industry are not and owe nothing to any supposed European migrants.
There is no indication of Iberian culture industries in Maurusian Maghreb nor today are there any Iberian specific male markers cotemporaneous to Maghrebi H1 or V.
Between Maurusian nascience ~20k and Taforalt samples ~12k are 8000 years, something like 300 generations.
Autochthonous indigenous African U6 M1 and L3 were in Upper and Epi Paleolithic Mediterranean coastal Morocco and Algeria for thousands of years and hundreds of generations before any proposed Iberian one sex only migrants bereft of Iberian tool kit or cultural traits set foot on the continent.
I dont understand the comment I thought they detected H. U, JT and V
and that what you are saying maybe there was African L there additionally in an individual or a few (?)
Are you saying that H. JT and V were not detected at Taforalt? That is was a mistake or lie?
African L being present in Africa would be unremarkable. The other Hgs however are remarkable in that there being in Africa at that early 12K BP date
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
You can't cop out from this one Tukuler:
The 2 wannabe black Africans, euroclown 'xyyman' and 'Trollkillah # Ish Gebor', are back with their old trickery of trying to confuse people with stupidity and crazy theory.
Even swenet one of their own tried to explain to them the basics of haplogroups without any impact on them.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
@ the ES readership
I have three autosome skylines that more than support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Waiting for the top slot of a fress page before I post them. Meanwhile all go ahead with filler as long as it's related to the thread's topic header.
I'm sure the ES readership is waiting for you to post this. What are you waiting for another new page?
As for the local contribution, don't be stupid, even Swenet explained it to you. Even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. It's parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia. If you can't understand that, you're an idiot.
Tukuler read this. :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
Take your time: Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Stupid is as stupid does vs Stuck on stupid
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Stupid is as stupid does vs Stuck on stupid
Don't be silly. Even Swenet explained to you how the remains at Taforalt were " European immigrants ". It's simple enough to understand.
You and the 2 other undercover euroclowns seem to be oblivious to simple explanation and basic knowledge about haplogroups and genetics.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Argyle, did you read my first post of today? Yes but it doesn't please you and so whine on.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The actual Taforalt skeletons do not match Iberian skeletons so they do not represent any migrants.
"Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000-year-old anatomically modern Europeans"
In this study, we typed the hypervariable region I (HVRI) of the mitochondrial genome (360 bp) from the bones of two early a.m.h. of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy.
Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners
__________________________________
^^^ xyyman here's the ancestor of H twice as old as that analyzed by Kefi from Morocco.
Found in Italy, perhaps oriignally from the Anatolia or the Near East
___________________________________
I think Swenet may have mentioned this before
that the origin of the so called Iberomaurusian might not be Iberian because their skeletons are more similar to Northern Europeans than southern Europeans.
So in Iberia there may have been both native Iberians and Northern/Central Europeans who sought refuge from the LGM
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The reasons it's not Iberian are * Iberian industry/culture is Magdalenian and Azilian * Magrheb industry/culture is Maurusian. * Magdalenian/Azilian vs Maurusian = nothing alike.
Valid comparisons for analyses * DNA is DNA (genetics) * Skeletons are skeletons (physical anthropology) * Industry/Culture is industry/culture (archaeology)
You may consider them all "fruit" but you're comparing "apples to oranges" as the saying goes when you posit that DNA equals bones.
Skeletons are not DNA.
Rhetorical argument: Higher cultured Iberians would have schooled lower cultured Maghrebis not have succumbed to their more primitive level (as I see it). Far outnumbering autochthone DNA, Taforalt's "Eurasian" DNA if it was from 12k foreign "invaders" their invading cultural industry should have predominated, no? I guess they were content to sink to the level of the handful of natives they found or imported and enslaved.
That is an inherent racism in the theory of Iberian people originating Maurusian culture. It's so convoluted only a Eurocentric could embrace it.
I don't know what the answer is to Eurasian H V & JT in Taforalt but it's millennia younger than native homegrown African U6 M1 & L3, a fact.
Timeframe: 20k Maurusian origins are with local U6 and M1 and so-called sub-Saharan L3 not with 12k Iberia.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
[
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
this analysis indicates the Taforalt population was primarily Eurasian by a large margin, 90%, 18 out of 21
is there a double standard here, where in Bekada you add up everything but here you have one individual in question and that justifies not considering any of the frequencies at all ?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
L3 or M or N,, question mark
on one individual of the 23
nevertheless 20+ individuals having Eurasian DNA In 12k BP North Africa, prehistoric back migration proven
L3, M and N carry nuclear resolutions to H*. This is what you don't get. And ironically these were already in North Africa, coming from East Africa.
Physical anthropology and archeology is telling us that OOA took place.
This is why it can't be due to back migration.
You missed the point of my post I was talking about 20+ individuals with H, U. JT, V
not the one individual who was L3 or M or N
>> 20+ individuals with H, U. JT, V means back migration from Eurasia 12k Bp
If we add one individual who might have been L3 or M or N it doesn't change those other hgs
Now listen up you and xyyman:
If genetic material recovered from a tooth of La Brana man in Spain that had markers for dark skin there is no longer need to fear "back migration from Europe"
> If they had dark skin you can relax
--blacks win, all of us
Again, where is the archeology and anthropology backup of the claim above?
What are the nuclear resolutions to the Hg above?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
quote: Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
this analysis indicates the Taforalt population was primarily Eurasian by a large margin, 90%, 18 out of 21
is there a double standard here, where in Bekada you add up everything but here you have one individual in question and that justifies not considering any of the frequencies at all ?
What Tukuler is showing is the nuclear resolutions.
Seen from a nuclear resolution path, you're wrong.
This genetic nuclear resolution path is coherent with archeological and anthological findings. Stemming from East Africa. This is what you seem to miss.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The actual Taforalt skeletons do not match Iberian skeletons so they do not represent any migrants.
"Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000-year-old anatomically modern Europeans"
In this study, we typed the hypervariable region I (HVRI) of the mitochondrial genome (360 bp) from the bones of two early a.m.h. of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy.
Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners
__________________________________
^^^ xyyman here's the ancestor of H twice as old as that analyzed by Kefi from Morocco.
Found in Italy, perhaps oriignally from the Anatolia or the Near East
___________________________________
I think Swenet may have mentioned this before
that the origin of the so called Iberomaurusian might not be Iberian because their skeletons are more similar to Northern Europeans than southern Europeans.
So in Iberia there may have been both native Iberians and Northern/Central Europeans who sought refuge from the LGM
quote:At about 40,000 years ago, however, Homo sapiens, in the form of the Cro-Magnons, began trickling into Europe, probably from an initially African place of origin.
quote: European connection? Some features, such as the molars, of these 40,000-year- old specimens from Romania resemble those of earlier North African hominins.
Abstract The Aterian fossil hominins represent one of the most abundant series of human remains associated with Middle Stone Age/Middle Paleolithic assemblages in Africa.
The discovery will help better define northern Africa's possible role in first populating southern Europe.
The makers of these assemblages can therefore be seen as (1) a group of Homo sapiens predating and/or contemporary to the out-of-Africa exodus of the species, and (2) geographically one of the (if not the) closest from the main gate to Eurasia at the northeastern corner of the African continent.
Although Moroccan specimens have been discovered far away from this area, they may provide us with one of the best proxies of the African groups that expanded into Eurasia[...]
quote:"The so-called Old Man [Cro-Magnon 1] became the original model for what was once termed the Cro-Magnon or Upper Paleolithic "race" of Europe.. there's no such valid biological category, and Cro-Magnon 1 is not typical of Upper Paleolithic western Europeans- and not even all that similar to the other two make skulls found at the site. Most of the genetic evidence, as well as the newest fossil evidence from Africa argue against continuous local evolution producing modern groups directly from any Eurasian pre-modern population.. there's no longer much debate that a large genetic contribution from migrating early modern Africans infuenced other groups throughout the Old World.“
--B. Lewis et al. 2008. Understanding Humans: Introduction to Physical
quote:"others like Predomost and to a lesser degree Grimaldi and Teviec, are more prognathic like Skhul 5."
--Marta Mirazón Lahr. 2005. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity:
quote:Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’— that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
-- U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Argyle, did you read my first post of today? Yes but it doesn't please you and so whine on.
You post is typical waffling from you and only serves to prove my point.
For example, you keep babbling about U6 being indigenous to North Africa. You don't seem to understand that even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. Its parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia.
This may help you understand (take your time to look at it):
You try to make this about me and you but truly even fellow Swenet told you about it and explained to it to xyyman in other posts.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
So the specimen at taforalt are European immigrants from a very long time ago who then admixed with other Eurasian and African populations.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You can't cop out from this one Tukuler:
The 2 wannabe black Africans, euroclown 'xyyman' and 'Trollkillah # Ish Gebor', are back with their old trickery of trying to confuse people with stupidity and crazy theory.
Even swenet one of their own tried to explain to them the basics of haplogroups without any impact on them.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
@ the ES readership
I have three autosome skylines that more than support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Waiting for the top slot of a fress page before I post them. Meanwhile all go ahead with filler as long as it's related to the thread's topic header.
I'm sure the ES readership is waiting for you to post this. What are you waiting for another new page?
As for the local contribution, don't be stupid, even Swenet explained it to you. Even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. It's parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia. If you can't understand that, you're an idiot.
Tukuler read this. :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
Take your time:
In other words after L* migrated to North Africa, it stopped mutating all of a sudden? ?
quote: "This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP"
[...]
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: In addition, Bayesian skyline analysis of 328 complete L3 sequences and founder analysis of 2,359 L3 hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) sequences enabled us to infer both local demographic expansions and migrations within Africa.
[...]
The diversification of L3 in Eastern Africa began early, as demonstrated by the ages of L3a and L3h (fig. 1), both of which are virtually specific to this region (fig. 3A). The BSP for Eastern Africa (supplementary fig. S6, Supplementary Material online) alone rises most steeply only after 40 ka (table 1), but the plot shows a progressive increase from before 50 ka. Accordingly, the scan of HVS-I diversity of founder L3 lineages in Eastern Africa showed a peak at ∼58.8 ka (corresponding to nearly three quarters of the L3 data in Eastern Africa; table 2), followed by a second peak at ∼1.8 ka.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Stupid is as stupid does vs Stuck on stupid
Don't be silly. Even Swenet explained to you how the remains at Taforalt were " European immigrants ". It's simple enough to understand.
You and the 2 other undercover euroclowns seem to be oblivious to simple explanation and basic knowledge about haplogroups and genetics.
Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages
(B) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, L5, L2, L3, M, and N in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies.
quote:Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
code:
Geography Founder Analysis
Migration Time (ka) % of L3 Lineages (SE)
East Africa 58.8 74.0 (0.5)
1.8 20.1 (2.6) 0.1 5.9 (2.5)
Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7) 9.2 24.1 (2.8) 0.1 0.9 (0.2)
North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7) 6.6 67.0 (4.0) 0.6 25.7 (3.1)
South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3) 0.1 13.3 (4.3)
South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7) 0.1 16.6 (3.7)
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Argyle, did you read my first post of today? Yes but it doesn't please you and so whine on.
You post is typical waffling from you and only serves to prove may point.
For example, you keep babbling about U6 being indigenous to North Africa. You don't seem to understand that even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. Its parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia.
This may help you understand (take your time to look at it):
You try to make this about me and you but truly even fellow Swenet told you about it and explained to it to xyyman in other posts.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
So the specimen at taforalt are European immigrants from a very long time ago who then admixed with other Eurasian and African populations.
The genetic nuclear resolution path, follows the same path as the archeological and anthropological path. Is this irony coincidental?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
quote:
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
However, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies reflect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
That's 85.7% unless you think L3 is Eurasian and stop acting so stupid. What did I say about Eurasian haplogroups actually being there all along over the past years?
Not to mention just yesterday I posted maybe why Eurasian predominated.
You just want to gloss over the fact that L3 is 8000 years older in in the Maghreb than H.
You can't discount all the L possibilities of Kefi's ragtag 1 or 2 or at most three mutation micro-mini-"sequence" haplotypes.
Kefi's published report her confusion over one sample TafXXIV unable to tell it's JT or U6. Yet in the PPT she lists it U6 though separated from her other U6 sample TafVI9E.
Of course the thing no one wants to talk about aDNA analysis is the fact that these fossils discovered before 2000 have been handled by who knows how many anthropologists taking measurements without taking precautions against contamination.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
this analysis indicates the Taforalt population was primarily Eurasian by a large margin, 90%, 18 out of 21
is there a double standard here, where in Bekada you add up everything but here you have one individual in question and that justifies not considering any of the frequencies at all ?
Kefi's table has 23 entries.
Three Taf V entries were reduced to one, leaving a base of 21 entries.
Kefi has: * local North African U6 at 9.5% (2/21) * presumed foreign H U JT V at 90.5% (but 18/21 = 85.7%) * presumed "sub-Sudanese" L3/M/N at 0% (but 1/21 = 4.8%)
Note that 9.5 + 85.7 = 95.2 not 100
To arrive at 90.5% for H U JT V Kefi had to add the sub-Sudanese 4.8% to the foreign 85.7%. Kefi, with a stroke of the pen and hoping no one would notice, added sub-Sudanese L3/M/N to the Eurasiatic component.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here. What you wrote about that is the most convoluted crock of **** from you to date!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@ Ish
Forget it, man.
You'll never educate those unwilling to learn
Foolish fantasizers see a Maghreb absent of population until some wonderful mystical magical Euros traipsed in a mere 12k.
They will play 3 Blind Monkeys to the fact of a Maurusian Maghreb populated by Mechta-Afalou since 20k with their U6 M1 L3 mtDNA.
I mean look at Kefi still as late as a 2013 conference presentation ignoring her own L3 finding of 2005 all in the name of a SSA free N Africa before slavery.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
simple question for the benefit of all readers of this thread, in your opinion, according to Hg frequencies recorded were most of the Taforalt, maternally prImarily African?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here.
So tell us wise one why according to your Bekada compiling do Maghrebians on average have around 60% Eurasian maternal DNA ?
Tell us how it happened, why it's weighted toward females
otherwise dont flap your gums
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here. What you wrote about that is the most convoluted crock of **** from you to date!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Patrol do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Please give us a "yes" or "no" first before massive quoting and charts thank you
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
simple question for the benefit of all readers of this thread, in your opinion, according to Hg frequencies recorded were most of the Taforalt, maternally primarily African?
scared?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here. What you wrote about that is the most convoluted crock of **** from you to date!
I gave you the sober explanation. It's a pattern seen throughout history. It's called replacement by invasion. One group invades and takes over. They kill, chase or enslave the men and rape their women. That is what occupiers do, look into anthropology texts
Similarly looking at the barbary pirates, one of the later waves of Eurasians in NA, they abducted several fold more men then they did women because they not only raided European towns they took over ships at sea and these had all male crews of sailors. -therefore more men were taken and there is supporting evidence
Then what happened to all the male DNA?
The men were either put to work, killed or eventually found their way back to Europe. But the sultans kept the much smaller numbers of women in harems to have sex with.
This is the sober explanation. I've already given it, rape and pillage is a pattern all throughout history in times of war or invasion. This has an impact on the DNA
You have a better explanation ??
So step up to the plate and tell us why according to your compiling of Bekada do Maghrebians on average have around 60% Eurasian maternal DNA ?
Tell us how it happened, why it's weighted toward females
I'LL WAIT............
lioness prodcuctions stop it, that hurts Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Please give us a "yes" or "no" first before massive quoting and charts thank you
I can answer it, but I won't, since you've asked Tukuler this first.
Your dissatisfaction of his response led towards me.
Tukuler is apparently waiting for an answer. Before addressing your question.
Deal with it. Don't try to use me as your vehicle. But the answer to your question can be found in the nuclear resolution path. Thanks.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The irony is that there was no British folks back then.
Suggested is that the makeup of the British Isles either came from the Iberian or North Europe.
That population is relatively young. By two sections. An ancient population and later a enslaved population. Taken by Vikings. In any case, the British Isles population is younger then that of a Northwest Africa. It's also ironic Europeans lack certain nuclear level mitochondrial African Hg's, but which can be found in Northwest Africans.
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Please give us a "yes" or "no" first
I can answer it, but I won't, since you've asked Tukuler this first.
He doesn't want to answer it
However that has nothing to do with you. You are not his official spokesperson
I cant force him or you to answer this question.
I you tw are scared to answer it I will have to move on to other people with more fortitude
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Please give us a "yes" or "no" first
I can answer it, but I won't, since you've asked Tukuler this first.
He doesn't want to answer it
However that has nothing to do with you. You are not his official spokesperson
Apparently he does, apparently you owe him an answer.
And yes, I am not his official /unofficial spokesperson. So you have to await his response....
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I gave him an answer twice he just didn't like it.
But that has zero to do with you.
It's o.k. don't answer
It's ok of you are not up to a challenge becuase of what I do or dont do, on to the next
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I gave him an answer twice he just didn't like it.
But that has zero to do with you.
It's o.k. don't answer
It's ok of you are not up to a challenge becuase of what I do or dont do, on to the next
You have to await his response....
You asked his first...
He explained the nuclear resolutions in the mitochondrial tree.
Do you understand his explanation?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
The irony is that there was no British folks back then.
It's also ironic that there were no African Americans back then. Yes irony abounds on this chart
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
The irony is that there was no British folks back then.
It's also ironic that there were no African Americans back then. Yes irony abounds on this chart
Funny is that African Americans descent from Africans, in Africa.
Such irony.
Another irony is the climatic change in Northwest Africa during the Epipaleolithic.
Change effects change....hence mutation.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: You have to await his response....
You asked his first...
I don't have to await anything
If I ask somebody something and they dont want to answer. I'm not going to waste my time asking them over and over.
I'll move on to somebody who will answer
Besides, you're not his appointed spokesman/follower
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: You have to await his response....
You asked his first...
I don't have to await anything
If I ask somebody something and they dont want to answer. I'm not going to waste my time asking them over and over.
I'll move on to somebody who will answer
Besides, your not his appointed spokesman/follower
Yes, I am not his appointed spokesman/ follower. I am someone who understands his explanation. As I did and from day one.
quote: Africa is the birthplace of modern humans, and is the source of the geographic expansion of ancestral populations into other regions of the world. Indigenous Africans are characterized by high levels of genetic diversity within and between populations. The pattern of genetic variation in these populations has been shaped by demographic events occurring over the last 200,000 years. The dramatic variation in climate, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent has also resulted in novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations in extant Africans.
--Sarah A. Tishkoff., The Evolution of Human Genetic and Phenotypic Variation in Africa
quote: "This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP"
[...]
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: And; Table S5: Populations considered for the mutations defining major clades A1b, A1a and A2-T.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Yes, I am not his appointed spokesman/ follower. I am someone who understands his explanation. As I did and from day one.
In other words stop bluffing
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Yes, I am not his appointed spokesman/ follower. I am someone who understands his explanation. As I did and from day one.
What kind of rubbish is that.."no you have to explain it/ bluffing"?
As I have stated before. It's between you and Tukuler. He has answered you. By explaining the genetic nuclear resolutions.
You'll have to deal with that.
Question has become, do you understand his explanation on genetic nuclear resolutions?
Yes or no?!
See, all Africans are rooted in the same. Northeast, Northwest, Central, West, East, South Africa.
code:
Geography Founder Analysis
Migration Time (ka) % of L3 Lineages (SE)
East Africa 58.8 74.0 (0.5)
1.8 20.1 (2.6) 0.1 5.9 (2.5)
Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7) 9.2 24.1 (2.8) 0.1 0.9 (0.2)
North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7) 6.6 67.0 (4.0) 0.6 25.7 (3.1)
South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3) 0.1 13.3 (4.3)
South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7) 0.1 16.6 (3.7)
I hope this was satisfactory.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
See, all Africans are rooted in the same. Northeast, Northwest, Central, West, East, South Africa.
If the ancestors of contemporary white Europeans who currently live in South Africa remain there for 10,000 years will they become biologically African?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Scared of what? A Lyin'Ass piece of Snaky sidewinding distorting unflushable **** like you whose attention span is zero and can not retain info posted the same day you post?
No dumbass I posted about that before you even asked. Go back scroll up read and comprehend. I'm not flimflam ARTU I don't need to repeat and repeat and repeat what one who really reads and absorbs can recall.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
simple question for the benefit of all readers of this thread, in your opinion, according to Hg frequencies recorded were most of the Taforalt, maternally primarily African?
scared?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
This is your answer for non-existant male specific DNA accompanying H and V Maurusian females? Back in EpiPaleolithic Alboran? Hahahahahahah! Who bought your purely speculative script? HBO SHO STARZ? When does it air? The 32nd of Neveruary? Damn you sure got jokes. Lame, but still jokes anyway. But no joke you couldn't name even one nrY haplogroup.
The queen of bait and switch "debate."
quote:Originall posted by al~Takruri:
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Then what happened to all the male DNA?
The men were either put to work, killed or eventually found their way back to Europe.
Lyin' Ass Fuckuptions stop it, that hurts
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Lol! HBO has better scripts. Lioness fantasy is in the realm of a really really bad USA Network B class shown on late nights. Yeah! "The men went back to Europe". The man is a total idiot or just clowning around.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
How about a total idiot clowning around with sinister intent toward the unwary.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Lol! HBO has better scripts. Lioness fantasy is in the realm of a really really bad USA Network B class shown on late nights. Yeah! "The men went back to Europe". The man is a total idiot or just clowning around.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
^^^xyyman, Tukular whipped up this chart based on Badro. He argues berbers are primarily Afican because when the maternal and pateral percentages are added up, African is higher. I said it was a reasonable argument although other thread makers beg to differ.
But at the same time there are high maternal Eurasian percentages, most around 60% (marked UF) and that contrasts with the paternal frequenices that are lower for Eurasian and up to 92% African (marked AF)
You say that the idea that female-only groups of Eurasians wandered into the region is implausible and I agree.
So what is your explanation for it ?? Why is the maternal DNA more Eurasian but the paternal DNA more African Tukular is dumbfounded
also,do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations Danielle A. Badro, 2013
The two leading principal components displayed in Figure 2 capture 47.9% and 26.9% of the variance showing a well-defined separation between Mediterranean African populations and sub-Saharan populations (Fig 2a). There is a clear cluster of North African populations comprised of Libyans, Moroccans, and Tunisians. The Nile River marks another boundary of mtDNA differentiation within Africa, linking Egypt, Ethiopia and Kenya but also extending through to Yemen. Yemenis and Saudis both associate strongly with Egyptians, whereas the Jordanian, Lebanese, Palestinian, and Syrian populations clustered together. Thus, the Arabian Peninsula population clusters were relatively differentiated from the more northern Levantine populations.
The principal vectors for HV, T, K, J, and U point almost directly at the Levantine cluster (Fig 2a). H marks Western Europe and is a significant contributor to Libyan Sahara and Mali mtDNA diversity. L2 and L3 frequencies distinguish the populations of Kenya, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Tunisia, and Libyan Sahara, with a decrease in frequencies of L haplotypes from Kenya through Saudi Arabia.
The dendrogram based on mtDNA haplogroup frequencies (Fig 2b) reveals the strongest differentiation across the Sahara, showing the northern populations differentiated from the southern ones (with Nigeria, Kenya, Mali, Libyan South Sahara, and Burkina-Faso). Egyptian, Yemeni, Saudi Arabian, and Ethiopian populations form a cluster that is distinct from the rest of North Africa, the remaining parts of the Middle East, and Europe. Among these, Libyans, Moroccans, and Tunisians, form a cluster.
UPGMA and PCA showed Yemenis and Saudis (two of the STR predicted Hg populations) closely associated, forming a clear outlier to clusters identifying more northerly Middle Eastern populations and Europe. Slovaks (the third predicted population) also formed a distinct outlier to all of these. Africans were partitioned into northern African populations and Sahel populations, and distinct from the other populations. Burkinabe formed a very distinct outlier to every other population.
For the mtDNA HVS-I FST MDS analysis, the European populations formed a clear cluster very close to the Cypriots, Jordanians, Lebanese, Palestinians, and Syrians. Egyptian, Libyan, Moroccan, and Tunisian populations form a clear cluster. Significantly, Yemenis are on the far side of North Africans, distinct from the Levantine populations and the Libyan Sahara population stands significantly separated from the North African group. The sub-Saharan populations are clearly distinguished from the Mediterranean populations and show significant distances between them in comparison to the Mediterranean populations. The mtDNA HVS-I MDS and dendrogram show most of the Levantine and Arabian Peninsula populations clustering together. Significantly, Yemenis do not seem to cluster with proximal African populations or with Saudis. The entire Levant population seems to cluster with Western Europeans, Southeastern Europeans, and Slovaks.
Whether considering haplogroup composition revealed in Fisher tests, PCA, or FST based MDS analysis of HVS-I data, mtDNA shows a much stronger affinity between Levantine populations and Europeans compared with the rest of the Middle Eastern populations, or with North Africans. While Lebanese and Yemeni mtDNA epitomize very distinct affinities to different populations and regions well outside of the Middle East, Saudi Arabia seems to display strong local over-representation haplogroup J, while Yemen is even more localized in its L6. Further, these large-scale differences in affinity between mtDNA genetics appear in sharp contrast to regional affinities seen in their Y-chromosomal counterparts. While the mtDNA signal is sharp and clear in its affinities, the Y-chromosome results show somewhat more ambiguous associations in RST based analyses, with Lebanese showing less within-group variation when organized consistently with mtDNA and demonstrating associations closer to Europeans than Africans. This would suggest that while male migrants accompanied female migrants, especially to Europe, females did not always accompany male migrants, especially into North Africa. This leaves a more ambiguous signal for male compared to female migrations.
The historical and archaeological record reveals how trade and labour, colonization and settlement events, and military expansions all contributed to the immigration and displacement of individuals throughout these regions. As a distinct crossroad between geographic regions and civilizations, the Levant and the Near East harbour unique genetic affinities which are revealed most clearly through the comparison of Y-chromosome and mtDNA data.
Due to uncertainties in haplogroup inference from STRs, specific questions regarding affinities of Yemen with Ethiopia vs. Egypt are inaccessible, as are questions regarding the relationship of Saudi Arabian haplogroups both similar to Yemenis or differentiated from Yemenis in affinity with African populations.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
al~Takruri prepared comparative charts from three of the latest uniparental reports that included Berbers Maghrebis and or littoral North Africans in an attempt to ascertain if Berbers are not primarily African.
The Lioness stipulated primarily means equal to or greater than 51%. Brekdowns into NA Berber and core Maghreb subsets were also stipulated by the Lioness. I honored those stipulations and I honored each report's geographic assignments for the involved haplogroups even when one placed a specific hg in one geography and another placed the selfsame hg in the opposite geography. No a priori agenda on my part, I even went back and corrected my mistaken placement of one group when I realized my bad.
The stats speak for themselves. Give ear and hear them out as is. Listen to what they have to say.
The uniparentals support Berbers are primarily African.
@ the ES readership
I also have three autosome skylines. They too support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Two are already posted but without the analysis I gave the uniparentals. Will repost with the 3rd and write-ups for all three when I feel like it.
All are welcome to compile the raw data from the most recent relevant resources just as I have and post their findings.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@Lioness. I answered your question going over two years ago. I disagree with some brothas on this Forum. Berbers are primarily Africans.
Now as for Ancient Egyptians vs Amazigh. Linguistically they share affinity. Morphological they share some commonality. Based on work by T Holliday. There is also a cultural and archeological connection. But based upon published genetic data there are similarities and differences. Eg Amarna and others show a strong SSA link. Even moden Egyptians show a strong SSA affinity. Those to the north show clear Levantine affinity.
You have to look at this holistically. Eg the Saharawis and Tunisian carry H/HV but there AIM/SNP profile show ZERO Eutopean connection. Henn and Behar saw the same pattern. Henn like Sergi concluded it was a one way migration. Not the reverse.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Baed upon recent work by Henn, kittles, wells etc, European are an admixture of three waves. The last wave occurring about 4k bc. In case you missed it Sforza may be wrong about the genetic make up of Europeans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
where's the AIMs ?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Tukuler is not dumbfounded. Lyin'Ass is dumb. I gave my explanation before Lyin'Ass even formed query.
Astute readers noticed it. Asshole readers noticed it too but what do you expect of an asshole other than **** like making pretend they didn't see it and refusing to go back and reread it after telling them three times I won't repeat it special for them when all they have to do is go reread what I wrote on maybe why H predominates the Taforalt fossils which shows along with L3 as a North African haplogroup of EpiPaleolithic to modern times continuity.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Why is the maternal DNA more Eurasian but the paternal DNA more African Tukular is dumbfounded
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] @Lioness. I answered your question going over two years ago. I disagree with some brothas on this Forum. Berbers are primarily Africans.
as just stated "primarily" means over 50%
Look at the charts Tukular jus put up. On a uniparental basis according to haplogroup frquencies they are primarily African
But at the same time why do they have so much maternal Eurasian DNA (marked UA on the charts around 60% in many cases) You could chp it down to 30% and it would still be a lot
How did this happen? no jokes, either you have an explanation for the mt and Y origin differences or you don't
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Get the 10,000ft view. Compare apples and apples.
North Africans vs Europeans, North Africans vs Middle East, Middle East vs Europe.
In all categories North Africans are older than Europeans, so calling these markers European is delusional.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tukuler is not dumbfounded. Lyin'Ass is dumb. I gave my explanation before Lyin'Ass even formed query.
Astute readers noticed it. Asshole readers noticed it too but what do you expect of an asshole other than **** like making pretend they didn't see it and refusing to go back and reread it after telling them three times I won't repeat it special for them when all they have to do is go reread what I wrote on maybe why H predominates the Taforalt fossils which shows along with L3 as a North African haplogroup of EpiPaleolithic to modern times continuity.
You don't write clearly. You write in a convoluted psuedo intellectual manner where people can't determine what your exact opinion is >by intention
1) do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
^^^ a simple yes or no question
2) of the DNA frequencies that have been published by Kefi were the Taforalt people primarily African?
^^^ a simple yes or no question ( and you have already given an answer in the case of modern NAs)
3) why do modern North Africans have much more Eurasian DNA on their maternal side than they do on their paternal side ?
_______________
as in scientific article clear claims are made in the abstract, technical detail follows in other sections
- no it shouldn't be a dig into the method section to figure out what the hypothesis or claim is
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: al~Takruri prepared comparative charts from three of the latest uniparental reports that included Berbers Maghrebis and or littoral North Africans in an attempt to ascertain if Berbers are not primarily African.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry.
But xyyman, al~Takruri, one of the Tukular split personalities spent a lot of time making the above charts.
Look at the legend "UA" = Eurasian, there's quite a bit of it represented even under primarily African circumstances. Does he have it mismarked ? Did the great sage mess up ???
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Snort
Typical of an ass to think there's a hiding alias Tukuler vs al~Takruri when the fromline makes the identity obvious with the same avatar too.
Naw, I'm no great sage but I appreciate the respect the honor.
Double naw, I ain't spoon feeding you no answers already given. Your dumbass read 'em once when I posted 'em. Your dumbass can go and reread 'em.
Anybody else unclear on what I posit? Just ask and I'll clarify/expand.
But Lyin'Ass can go fish!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You are kidding right? Clowning or an idiot?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: where's the AIMs ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I heard Egyptsearch is being renamed Berbersearch
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Lioness. I answered your question going over two years ago. I disagree with some brothas on this Forum. Berbers are primarily Africans.
Now as for Ancient Egyptians vs Amazigh. Linguistically they share affinity. Morphological they share some commonality. Based on work by T Holliday. There is also a cultural and archeological connection. But based upon published genetic data there are similarities and differences. Eg Amarna and others show a strong SSA link. Even moden Egyptians show a strong SSA affinity. Those to the north show clear Levantine affinity.
You have to look at this holistically. Eg the Saharawis and Tunisian carry H/HV but there AIM/SNP profile show ZERO Eutopean connection. Henn and Behar saw the same pattern. Henn like Sergi concluded it was a one way migration. Not the reverse.
Egyptian and Berber languages do not share affinity.
They are related via Semitic elements in Berber. There is no cultural evidence collected that unite the Berbers and Egyptians. The Berbers only recently came to Siwan as discussed earlier.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasThe Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan is.com/siwa_his.html )
.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde it's true M81 which is common to most berbers originated in the Maghreb at what is thought to be 5,600 years ago, However M35 which is much older is thought to maybe have originated in the horn and is also thought to be the ancestor of M81.
But the Siwa are somewhat of an outlier comapred to ther berbers. They carry U5b unlike other berbers who tend to be U6. And on the paternal said their frequencies of M81 are little to none. Not only that their M35 frequencies are low. The ancestry of the berbers is a complex subject and varies from group to group
^^^ Tukular do the math on this for the primarily. I'm not up to it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.
Troll Patrol how can this be?
You are always showing the below map where M81, the berber marker is an extension of M35 coming from East Africa?
And it's going right across Egypt. If you go by this map, paternally the ancient Egyptians and the berbers go back to the same root, to Ethiopia
map: Y Haplogroups, A Review of the Possibility of Multidisciplinary Comparisons Using the Case of Haplogroup E-M35, Andrew Lancaster 2009
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.
Troll Patrol how can this be?
You are always showing the below map where M81, the berber marker is an extension of M35 coming from East Africa?
And it's going right across Egypt. If you go by this map, paternally the ancient Egyptians and the berbers go back to the same root, to Ethiopia
map: Y Haplogroups, A Review of the Possibility of Multidisciplinary Comparisons Using the Case of Haplogroup E-M35, Andrew Lancaster 2009
This map can also be interpreted as representing the spread of this haplogroup in North Africa prior to the Vandal expasion into North Africa. Berbers carrying this gene are therefore descendants of the original Blacks who were the majority in North Africa before the Portuguesebegan the Atlantic slave trade.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
I thought, Lancaster pointed to the sahel--not east Africa.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The above map is a Lancaster chart from the aforementioned article branches stemming from Ethiopia
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: al~Takruri prepared comparative charts from three of the latest uniparental reports that included Berbers Maghrebis and or littoral North Africans in an attempt to ascertain if Berbers are not primarily African.
Becoming Eloquent: Advances in the Emergence of Language, Human Cognition ... edited by Francesco D'Errico, Jean Marie Hombert p135
_____________________________
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni2 and J. M. Dugoujon1 1Laboratoire d’Anthropobiologie, CNRS FRE2960, Universite´ Paul Sabatier, Toulouse, France
_______________________________
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
He believed the haplogroup originated in the Sahel . read pp.48-52 of the article.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
He believed the haplogroup originated in the Sahel . read pp.48-52 of the article.
.
Y Haplogroups, A Review of the Possibility of Multidisciplinary Comparisons Using the Case of Haplogroup E-M35
However M81 did not originate in the horn. It originated in the Maghreb.
M35 is thought to be it's parent and thought to originate in the horn maybe.
Therefore berbers are less horny than Ethiopians
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Sanchez-Quinto's (2012 with Botigue, Comas & Lalueza-Fox co-authors) Table 1 clearly quantifies their Figure 1.
Here are those charts reordered from inner Africa to Atlantic and Mediterranean North Africa to European Union Mediterranean countries along with the Canaries.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Sanchez-Quinto's assignment of geographic ancestries, which are in his own words, labeled according to the region where the component is the commonest.
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Above are the African vs non-African SNP frequencies of each selected African nation and grouped views of them as
* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core Maghreb subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on North African populations. It attempts to discern Neanderthal genome influx.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
See, all Africans are rooted in the same. Northeast, Northwest, Central, West, East, South Africa.
If the ancestors of contemporary white Europeans who currently live in South Africa remain there for 10,000 years will they become biologically African?
For the Love of God, why are you this dumb?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak,. Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
See, all Africans are rooted in the same. Northeast, Northwest, Central, West, East, South Africa.
quote:
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7) 9.2 24.1 (2.8) 0.1 0.9 (0.2)
North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7) 6.6 67.0 (4.0) 0.6 25.7 (3.1)
South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3) 0.1 13.3 (4.3)
South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7) 0.1 16.6 (3.7)
By now, it's confirmed that you don't understand what nuclear resolutions are. And this is essentially the problem you have.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
Oh, Heavenly Father!
The point being is that E-M81 evolved in Northwest Africa, by local evolution, about 7-6Kya.
Why can't you just understand this?
We have been posting evidence for a while now.
quote: These minor imprints may represent movements from Sahel's more central and eastern parts, seen, for example, in the typically Ethiopian/Sudanese E3*-PN2 lineages that have reached Senegambia [2,3,5].
--A Rosa - 2007,. Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Get the 10,000ft view. Compare apples and apples.
North Africans vs Europeans, North Africans vs Middle East, Middle East vs Europe.
In all categories North Africans are older than Europeans, so calling these markers European is delusional.
And that is the core essence here!
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
^This is a circular argument:
quote:The fallacy of circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is essentially the same as one of the premises in the argument. Circular reasoning is an inference drawn from a premise that includes the conclusion, and used to prove the conclusion.
Your conclusion: Berbers are genetically primarily African. Your premise: Berbers are primarily made up of a component which occurs in Africa. Your conclusion is just another way of stating your premise. In other words, your argument requires evidence that the origin of this component is African, independent of any back-flow (which you've left untouched). What does the actual paper say about the origin/affinity of this component?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
He believed the haplogroup originated in the Sahel . read pp.48-52 of the article.
.
Y Haplogroups, A Review of the Possibility of Multidisciplinary Comparisons Using the Case of Haplogroup E-M35
However M81 did not originate in the horn. It originated in the Maghreb.
M35 is thought to be it's parent and thought to originate in the horn maybe.
Therefore berbers are less horny than Ethiopians
.
For the Lord's sake,
Nuclear Hg F isn't even Eurasian in it's root.
quote:Haplogroup F is thought to represent a second and later stage of human migration out of Africa 50 thousand years ago (kya)(see Figures 4 and 5)."
quote:Haplogroup F is the parent haplogroup for all of the Y-DNA haplogroups from G through R. More than 90% of the world's human population descends from this group. Because these haplogroups are found almost entirely outside of sub-Saharan Africa, it is presumed that either the population migrating out of Africa was Haplogroup F or Haplogroup F appeared soon after the emigration from Africa, about sixty to eightly thousand years ago. Some argue the emigration was as late as 45,000 years ago.
Today, Haplogroup F is uncommon compared to its "offspring." It is not well studied as most of the attention has been paid to their descendant haplogroups.
Haplogroup F is most frequent on the Indian subcontinent and is rare in Europe, so rare that a Y-DNA Haplogroup F Project has only just been formed (as of November, 2007). Your project admin recommends this individual join this project, in addition to Danish Demes.
quote:In human genetics, Haplogroup F* (M89) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup (Note: due to technical restrictions, the title of this page does not contain an "*").
This haplogroup first appeared in Africa some 45,000 years before present. It is believed to represent the "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa.
Haplogroup F* is an ancestral haplogroup to Y-chromosome haplogroups G (M201), H (M52), I (M170), J (12f2.1), and K (M9) along with its descendant haplogroups (L, M, N, O, P, Q, and R).
Sigh! shaking head....that is the problem with the colonial negro mind. Asking stupid questions. The question should be...what is your basis/evidence to the origin? These authors don't know. These authors research and publish the results inferring what it means. Some of us are really colonial minded slave stupid negros. But your heart is in the right place. Continue believing white hunter gathers women entered Africa 12000ya.
I have a bridge to sell. Ha!
ARTU=Sweety
quote:Originally posted What does the actual paper say about the origin of this component? [/QB]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
FYI. Haplotypes diversity is significantly more telling than the "assumed" age of a haplogroup. But you know that already.......wink wink
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Anyone has the new Kefi (2014) paper on Tunisians. Abstract got my attention. Seems to support what I have saying all along. Damn I am good!!!
Lioness get to work. My sources are drying up. A lot of questions may be answered. It seems Jerba Berbers are closely related to Sardinians.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ok. No response . Think of it like apples. You have a small basket containing 10 different types of apples. Eg red, green etc. However your Neighbor has a truckload containing ONLY 5 different types. This is what we are looking at. All haplotypes of hg-H found in Europe is found in Africa plus MORE!! That is why frequency means....dick. I hope get it and stop regurgitating nonsense.
In other words even with hg-H Europeans are a subset of Africans.
Any questions ..hit me up.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Some of you regurgitate stuff without a clue. Do you know why Cruiciani was recently proven wrong on the back migration of R-V88? Same analogy. Inner Africans haplotypic diversity is greater than those found in Algeria and Siwa etc. proving the migration was outwards. Take notes when I post.
"I am out!" No dogma with this brotha
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A lot of rhetoric with no raw data behind it.
Your opinion is fine and is just that your opinion.
I'll stick with the raw data thank you.
For this thread's exercise I also honored the geographies geneticist chose. I'm not one to assume my view is the one and only truth. I think one connotation of dogma is declaring one view as the one and the only bona fide "truth." Truth is belief, i.e, religion. Science deals in facts and allows for various interpretations of them.
I did not alter anything so as to slant to my view. For instance data shows Egyptians, very few who are Berber, are not primarily African. The same can basically be said for Libyans. Even in at least one case certain group sets are not primarily African. But when all the data from from 6 different sources is "pooled" Berbers are primarily African.
The uniparentals showed that. The above SNPs show that. The earlier posted skylines have shown it too.
Without twisting geographies as laid out by the reports themselves I invite you and anyone else who's capable to present raw data from a variety of legitimate studies that show Berbers are not primarily African. I welcome and await it.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
^This is a circular argument:
quote:The fallacy of circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is essentially the same as one of the premises in the argument. Circular reasoning is an inference drawn from a premise that includes the conclusion, and used to prove the conclusion.
Your conclusion: Berbers are genetically primarily African. Your premise: Berbers are primarily made up of a component which occurs in Africa. Your conclusion is just another way of stating your premise. In other words, your argument requires evidence that the origin of this component is African, independent of any back-flow (which you've left untouched). What does the actual paper say about the origin/affinity of this component?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
truthfully , to be more precise the Y DNA of berbers on average is primarily African while their mtDNA is Eurasian
That is what distinguishes them from Sub Saharans who are primarily African in both Y and mtDNA
/close thread
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Some are ignorant of the concept of pooling, its significance, too bad for them. Definitely agenda driven, they will rant when scientific evidence goes against their personal outlook. Should the science support them, not a peep.
= = = = =
As an addendum to my last post I might add the following, so as to reduce confusion.
Berbers being genetically primarily African has absolutely no Pan-African significance whatsoever.
I used Lioness' stipulations but nonetheless the deep rooted African genetic foundation of North African Berber precedent populations has been continuously augumented by various Eurasian influxes since the Pleistocene/Holocene cusp on up to today. Things continuing as they are now their continued preference, particularly for Spanish women, will in time make them even less and less genetically primarily African, and the African margin is not great at all at the present time.
Since the last desertification of the Sahara the littoral Maghreb has been a major part of both the circum-Mediterranean world and became Arabized (not just Islamicized) in speech and outlook.
They really don't look southward to the rest of Africa for much of anything.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: truthfully , to be more precise the Y DNA of berbers on average is primarily African while their mtDNA is Eurasian
That is what distinguishes them from Sub Saharans who are primarily African in both Y and mtDNA
/close thread
Sad, how this person still doesn't get it!
Some of the so famously acclaimed Eurasian mtDNA is actually African in origin, this what people are trying to explain to you here 15 pages long.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: truthfully , to be more precise the Y DNA of berbers on average is primarily African while their mtDNA is Eurasian
That is what distinguishes them from Sub Saharans who are primarily African in both Y and mtDNA
/close thread
Sad, how this person still doesn't get it!
Some of the so famously acclaimed Eurasian mtDNA is actually African in origin, this what people are trying to explain to you here 15 pages long.
quote:Originally posted by Tukular
When you say "people" do you mean you and xyyman? Clyde and Swenet even felt compelled to write their own threads for alternative points of view and Amun Ra is not in your camp either on this. You are out to lunch, haven't been following
So you are saying we should disregard the above charts compiled by Tukular which indicate higher maternal Eurasian mtDNA?
"people" is just you and xyyman
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry.
^^^ this is what I'm supposed to "get" ?
Although Tukualr might have some issues with how certain haplogroups are categorized bewteen African and Eurasian,
for the purposes of argument he accepted the authors of these articles indications. He has not spent this thread questioning those indications. That was not the theme of this thread. You have not been following for 15 pages
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: A lot of rhetoric with no raw data behind it.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Your opinion is fine and is just that your opinion.
At your own invitation expressed earlier in this thread, I'm addressing something you said, only to have you use these blatant cop-outs. Sorry, but whether or not some author agrees with your views is not a matter of one's personal view. Whether the literature perceives some genetic component to be of African provenance is not a matter of personal view. It's up to you to present the facts as they are. Tacitly flipping the script on the person who's telling you this and insinuating that they're being dogmatic for not accepting your circular reasoning is beyond childish. You keep citing so and so under the pretence that so and so "respects" a certain author, or that so and so promotes your view "according to their own labelling", only to admit that you don't care about what any of those authors said; you just want to stick to "raw data".
I don't see what personal opinions have to do with my asking you to do what you set out to do: demonstrate that the component you call African is really African; not just opportunistically using some author's superficial labelling (rather than their explicit explanations) as evidence of literary support for your "primary African" claim.
You had a problem with Lioness having her own views about Berbers, but as soon as your own views are up for scrutiny, you cop-out by saying everyone can have their own view. What makes addressing your blatant omissions any different from you doing the same with Lioness' original statement that Berbers are not primarily African?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Anyone got this new Kefi paper? I am more interested in the bold.
Also why Valencia? Any guesses?
===== Phylogeny and genetic structure of Tunisians and their position within Mediterranean populations
-Kefi 2014
Abstract Tunisia is located at the crossroads of Europe, the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa. This position might lead to numerous waves of migrations, contributing to the current genetic landscape of Tunisians. In this study, we analyzed 815 mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences from Tunisia in order to characterize the mitochondrial DNA genetic structure of this region, to construct the processes for its composition and to compare it to other Mediterranean populations. To that end, additional 4206 mtDNA sequences were compiled from previous studies performed in African (1237), Near Eastern (231) and European (2738) populations. Both phylogenetic and statistical analyses were performed. This study confirmed the mosaic genetic structure of the Tunisian population with the predominance of the Eurasian lineages, followed by the Sub-Saharan and North African lineages. Among Tunisians, the highest haplogroup and haplotype diversity were observed in particular in the Capital Tunis. No significant differentiation was observed between both geographical (Northern versus Southern Tunisia) and different ethnic groups in Tunisia. Our results highlight the presence of outliers and most frequent unique sequences in Tunisia (10.2%) compared to 45 Mediterranean populations. Phylogenetic analysis showed that the majority of Tunisian localities were closer to North Africans and Near Eastern populations than to Europeans. The exception was found for Berbers from Jerba which are clustered with Sardinians and Valencians. Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Come on people talk to me. Here is a puzzle. Use that big brain. No dogma. Why are Jerba Berbers, Spanish Velencians and European Sardinian closely connected? Did white European women hunters from both Spain and European Sardinia sail to the Jerba island 12000ya hunting for food? Or as Lioness suggested...the men decided to go back home. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Anyone got this new Kefi paper? I am more interested in the bold.
Also why Valencia? Any guesses?
===== Phylogeny and genetic structure of Tunisians and their position within Mediterranean populations
-Kefi 2014
Abstract Tunisia is located at the crossroads of Europe, the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa. This position might lead to numerous waves of migrations, contributing to the current genetic landscape of Tunisians. In this study, we analyzed 815 mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences from Tunisia in order to characterize the mitochondrial DNA genetic structure of this region, to construct the processes for its composition and to compare it to other Mediterranean populations. To that end, additional 4206 mtDNA sequences were compiled from previous studies performed in African (1237), Near Eastern (231) and European (2738) populations. Both phylogenetic and statistical analyses were performed. This study confirmed the mosaic genetic structure of the Tunisian population with the predominance of the Eurasian lineages, followed by the Sub-Saharan and North African lineages. Among Tunisians, the highest haplogroup and haplotype diversity were observed in particular in the Capital Tunis. No significant differentiation was observed between both geographical (Northern versus Southern Tunisia) and different ethnic groups in Tunisia. Our results highlight the presence of outliers and most frequent unique sequences in Tunisia (10.2%) compared to 45 Mediterranean populations. Phylogenetic analysis showed that the majority of Tunisian localities were closer to North Africans and Near Eastern populations than to Europeans. The exception was found for Berbers from Jerba which are clustered with Sardinians and Valencians.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Man. The geneticists are tripping over themselves publishing and admiting that preNeolithic/early Neolithic Europeans had black skin. I can't keep up! Lol! This is fun times! Now Jablonski (2013) don't want to be left out. Table S1 of her new paper data showing early Kurgans were black skinned carry ancestral forms of Slc45A2, TYR etc.
Europhiles are on the ropes. Lol!
To those who read Sergi's book. He also proposed the early Kurgans were Eurafricans.
Point? Proving yet again there is no race....
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
. I made it plain I want this thread as robust as possible.
Nobody had to start alternative threads to express their view. I invited Clyde to park all his stuff here. I didn't personally invite Swenet but he too is for sure welcome to post his viewpoint here (sans annoying distractive gifs that make the thread clownish).
And yes I explicitly wrote when I posted my first analysis that I'm ignoring assignment controversies so as to let the reports as published speak through their raw data.
I noted where authors recognized that a given haplogroup assignment can and does differ from its parent or umbrella macrohaplogroup geography.
A child is not the parent and the reductio ad absurdum argument about lumping all children by their parent's geography ultimately resolves to making them all African.
Strongly opinionated objectors don't care. They only care for their own point of view regardless of attempted objectivity. If they want to broach grandstanding emotionally appealing threads let 'em.
The problem I'm having with autosomals is that of the recent studies I found with pertinent STRUCTURE or ADMIXTURE skylines (Henn, Botigue, Sanchez-Quinto) only the one I posted yesterday clearly delineates geographies.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Do you?
Answering a question in both affirmative and negative response is not circular argument. It's not an argument at all it's a conclusion. Maybe something more like modus tallens or modus ponens or something (I haven't done philosophy type logic since university)?
Humans are mammals. (therefore) Humans are not non-mammals.
Berbers are primarily African therefore Berbers are not primarily not-African.
The foregoing raw data confirmed Berbers are primarily African therefore The foregoing raw data refuted Berbers are not primarily African
Simply affirmative and negative response.
Neither of my statements is a premise. They are both conclusions derived from examination of raw data. Why you twist them into a premise - conclusion type relationship shows your comprehension is weak or sinister and beyond childish just something to puff yourself up.
Can you contribute info on the topic header or something related to the threads subject no matter how peripheral?
I'm not wasting time vindicating myself. This thread is for discussing Imazighen not how bad a guy Tukuler is. Yeah, I know it's not ES w/o banter.
I invite you to post whatever you want about why the geneticists' assignments are wrong but that won't change their published assessments making them conform to your opinion. It will round out the thread and contribute to its robustness.
Thanks!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Why are Jerba Berbers, Spanish Velencians and European Sardinian closely connected? Did white European women hunters from both Spain and European Sardinia sail to the Jerba island 12000ya hunting for food? Or as Lioness suggested...the men decided to go back home.
I dunno but just the other day I read some North African mtDNA was in the founder population of Sardinia.
This makes me rethink directionality of certain attributes claimed to be Euro infusion to Afr (in regards to late Neolithic and Chalcolithic archaeology).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Answering a question in both affirmative and negative response is not circular argument.
Any child can tell that the following passage in your post harbours both a premise and a conclusion:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I also have three autosome skylines. They too support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Any child can tell that the above, is just a circular argument on your part in the following format:
Your conclusion: Berbers are genetically primarily African.
Your premise: Berbers are primarily made up of a component which occurs in Africa.
Question you apparently want no one to ask you (because you repeatedly cop out as soon as someone does):
How did you bridge the humongous gap in logic from making the observation that the Maghreb component exclusively occurs in the Maghreb, that it can be counted as among that which is "African", other than making gratuitous use of unfortunate labelling (e.g. that the authors called it "Maghreb")?
You never did and you got defensive when you were asked to.
Anyone can see that your tacit insinuation that the component that defines Berber speakers "is African because it resides in/is designated as Maghreb" doesn't prove your assertion that it is African. It's just a reflection of your own unproven view that it is African, masquerading as "evidence", hence, it's a circular argument.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I repeat. There is no such thing as European AIM. aDNA is going to change history. Loving it! My advice get in on it. Oh! The male Haplogroup wasn’t disclosed. My guess the missing European males Lioness was talking about did not go back home but migrated to inner Africa. Wink wink.
This is out of control of the Europhiles hands. Everyone has an ADNA Machine!!! They will lose control.
===== April 11, 2014 , Telus CC Exhibit Hall E2 An infant skeleton was recovered from the 6G8 cemetery (Christian Period, 500-1400 C.E.) during excavation in what is present-day Wadi Halfa, located near the Second Cataract of the Nile in the Republic of the Sudan. Skeletal material from Wadi Halfa represents one of the most analyzed archaeological populations in the world. Building upon the research of Dr. George Armelagos and others, this study presents preliminary results of the first ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis of an individual from this population. Analysis was carried out at the Molecular Population Genetics laboratory in the Smurfit Institute of Genetics at Trinity College Dublin, Dublin, Ireland. Using next-generation sequencing (NGS) techniques, DNA was extracted from a portion of cranial bone, indexed libraries were prepared, and the genome was sequenced on the Illumina platform using a MiSeq Personal Sequencer. Analysis of sequencing results indicated 0.59% endogenous DNA. Principle component analysis (PCA) was performed; despite a low number of SNPs, the individual was placed between African and European clusters. Using a method developed in Trinity’s Molecular Population Genetics laboratory, the individual was sexed as a male. Haplogroup was assessed by analyzing SNPs from the mitochondrial chromosome with HaploGrep. The individual was assigned to L5a1a, a branch of the ancient L5 haplogroup with origins in East Africa.
This study demonstrates the potential to gain unique insight into Nubian populations through aDNA analysis. Additional aDNA analysis of the Nubians will provide invaluable information regarding genetic influence and gene flow in individuals occupying ancient Nubia.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
April 11, 2014 , Telus CC Exhibit Hall E2 Over five field seasons, 2008-2012, two ancient Kenyan Swahili sites were excavated. Mtwapa (ca. 1000-1750 CE) and Manda (ca. 800-1600 CE) were once wealthy, cosmopolitan polities involved in the Indian Ocean trade network. Both towns had populations of 5,000-10,000 at their height of occupation, and had large central mosques with adjacent cemeteries. Genetic data collected from individuals sampled at these sites is currently being used to discern the burial trends of the Swahili, as well as whether the Swahili practiced matrilocal residence patterns. As Swahili burials typically contain no grave goods, genetic information is able to provide valuable data regarding burial patterning and social structure at these sites. Mtwapa excavations occurred between 2008 and 2011 and produced a minimum of 87 individuals buried across 13 crypts in the cemetery located next to the central mosque, with an average of 7 individuals per crypt. Crypts contained both men and women, as well as children, and all individuals uncovered were lain on their right side, extended, facing mecca. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) extractions from teeth have been performed on 73 of these individuals, and Y-chromosome studies are set to begin this fall. The presence of mtDNA haplotypes of both West-Central and East African origin have been noted in preliminary sequence analysis of the first Hypervariable Region (HVRI) of the control region. Excavations at Manda began in December 2012, with a total of 19 individuals being exhumed. Extractions began in September of 2013, and preliminary sequence data is expected in Winter 2013/14. This research was funded by African Research Council and National Science Foundation (BCS 1029433) grants to Williams and Kusimba
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Who do you think you are to tell me the purpose of what I design, write, and post and to continue doing so after I clarified your lamebrained misconception. This is the perfect example of a dogmatic ideologue ramrodding their opinion in the face of fact.
One more time for the shameless Mr Twist-it.
Just like in the other analyses those closing affirmative negative sentences are answers to a question.
Note: the underscored question at top the underscored answer at bottom.
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Above are the African vs non-African SNP frequencies of each selected African nation and grouped views of them as
* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core Maghreb subset.
Now that's the actual string you originally replied to, not the switcheroo you offer now similarly presented completely out of context so much better to dupe the inattentive.
You go on with your bullshit because it angers and dismays you that Berbers are primarily African, local African, scientifically documented by these latest reports of uniparentals and autosomes whose presented geographies are exactly as the authors labeled them.
You can continue to fume on and believe Maurusians and Capsians are Iberians or some other fairytale folk and post more rhetoric or you can do what we all know you are more than capable of doing: hit us up with science on the topic.
Your options: 1 - More impotent rhetoric; not worth my time to further respond 2 - Pertinent info on the subject header; enlightenment from you we all will appreciate.
You can go on and on forever with lying rhetoric but all your rhetoric cannot ever change the raw data and the conclusions inferred from the raw data.
You have not succeeded in diverting, obscuring, or detracting from the point of attention, the raw data.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Answering a question in both affirmative and negative response is not circular argument.
Any child can tell that the following passage in your post harbours both a premise and a conclusion:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I also have three autosome skylines. They too support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Any child can tell that the above, is just a circular argument on your part in the following format:
Your conclusion: Berbers are genetically primarily African.
Your premise: Berbers are primarily made up of a component which occurs in Africa.
Question you apparently want no one to ask you (because you repeatedly cop out as soon as someone does):
How did you bridge the humongous gap in logic from making the observation that the Maghreb component exclusively occurs in the Maghreb, that it can be counted as among that which is "African", other than making gratuitous use of unfortunate labelling (e.g. that the authors called it "Maghreb")?
You never did and you got defensive when you were asked to.
Anyone can see that your tacit insinuation that the component that defines Berber speakers "is African because it resides in/is designated as Maghreb" doesn't prove your assertion that it is African. It's just a reflection of your own unproven view that it is African, masquerading as "evidence", hence, it's a circular argument.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Why are Jerba Berbers, Spanish Velencians and European Sardinian closely connected? Did white European women hunters from both Spain and European Sardinia sail to the Jerba island 12000ya hunting for food? Or as Lioness suggested...the men decided to go back home.
I dunno but just the other day I read some North African mtDNA was in the founder population of Sardinia.
This makes me rethink directionality of certain attributes claimed to be Euro infusion to Afr (in regards to late Neolithic and Chalcolithic archaeology).
Anna Olivieri (with Achilli Pala Battaglia Al-Zahery Scozzari Cruciani Behar Dugoujon Coudray Semino Torroni et al) The mtDNA Legacy of the Levantine Early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa Science 314, 1767 (2006)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Read enough and it become clear as….
Beyoku once challenged me on the importance of Sardinia. There is a reason why Sardinia is so important to the Eurocentric. I only figured that out recently about 2years when I looked at a map. Sardinia/Italy is just as important as Iberia hence Kefi’s point. I started browsing a few other Foums. And I am not the only one who is now thinking along those lines. I am not as unique as I thought. He! He!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I wish instead of challenges and vying for debate championship (ego-centered) we could all act more like colleagues -- differing opinion colleagues nonetheless -- working toward a goal of increasing the knowledge of Africa in all its myriad faces calling for clarification and expansion of others' hypotheses though not denying what can be demonstrated as factual.
Remember not even the professionals are in agreement.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
So, I take it you're going to cop out, again? No, I'm not going to answer you tit for tat; that'd make it too easy for you to justify not answering this basic question:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: How did you bridge the humongous gap in logic from making the observation that the Maghreb component exclusively occurs in the Maghreb, that it can be counted as among that which is "African", other than making gratuitous use of unfortunate labelling (e.g. that the authors called it "Maghreb")?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] ... unfortunate labelling (e.g. that the authors called it "Maghreb")?
Wow straight up "Who you gon' believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?" shystering.
Geneticists labeled it African (Maghreb is Africa) but Swenet rejects authors' labels. He knows better than they do. Everyone who doesn't regurgitate Swenet's view is illogical, childish, or unfortunate.
Just imagine the geneticists of the four presented studies are unfortunates too stupid to know how to correctly label their work.
Only Swenet knows the right way.
But Swenet doesn't know the way to just simply do some research using the latest studies' raw data and present it without a priori blinders. Why? Because maybe letting the raw data speak for itself will deflate his dogma preconclusions.
But maybe it won't. We'll just have to wait and see if he's up to the task of doing some work or if he'll just continue his disgruntle ruminations.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Geneticists labeled it African (Maghreb is Africa) but Swenet rejects authors' labels.
Labeling something Maghreb or local component is not labeling it African. For example, while local component like U6 may have first appeared in the Maghreb, it's parent basal haplogroups comes from Europe.
You can see it here for example. U6 is descendant of U, which is descendant of R, which is descendant of N. Same thing for H, J and V haplogroups. All of those genetic mutations first appeared outside Africa in the population that left Africa during the main OOA migration. It's only through a very ancient back migration that U first appeared into the Maghreb.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
what haplogroup in particular, according to this method, is most responsible for making Egypt and Libya, primarily Eurasian?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: white European women hunter gatherers entering Africa...sheesh!! Leave to Hollywood...Charlies Angels
what about this pattern?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Geneticists labeled it African (Maghreb is Africa) but Swenet rejects authors' labels. He knows better than they do. Everyone who doesn't regurgitate Swenet's view is illogical, childish, or unfortunate.
Wake up from your stubborn self-induced figments. I've never denied or rejected that Maghreb is in Africa or that the authors labelled this component "Maghreb". You bringing this up is just another one of your cop out ploys. Debating non-contested subject matter will just lead me to ignore your red herrings: you're not throwing sand in my eyes with your deceptions. I'm asking you (~five times already) what evidence is behind your faith-based leap in logic, that the "Maghrebi" component, which your own source describes as:
quote:our hypothesis is that this ancestral population was descendant from the populations that first interbreed with Neandertals about ~37,000–86,000 years ago [18] somewhere in the Middle East.
can be appropriated to your "African" category, with explicit approval from the authors. Wasn't that your whole argument? That "Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report" explicitly supports that "Berbers are primarily African"? But based on what did they say this? By labelling the component using a geographic reference to where this ancestry peaks (i.e. "Maghreb")? Really? Superficial labelling is now going to dictate population affinity rather than the FST analysis of the autosomes themselves? You must be kidding me. This is a whole new low you're stooping to.
For all your admonitions at Kefi's address, you sure are deceptive yourself, no? Deceptively stating X when the main text and the literature actually denies X. For all your admonitions at Bekada's address for appropriating M81 and M78 to Eurasia, you sure are quite fond of appropriating ancestry based on vested interests, yourself. Don't you think enough is enough? Stop your deceptions already, stop lying to the people.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
what haplogroup in particular, according to this method, is most responsible for making Egypt and Libya, primarily Eurasian?
.
Afaik the SNPs are autosomes but Sanchez-Quinto does not really say. Y SNPs may be included. As it is, I know of no way to tell what haplogroups correspond to his k=4 skyline.
What you ask is more of a thing I've noticed Swenet to ferret out. Maybe he has answer for you.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
This is what happens from relying on pretty pictures.
From the same source as your pretty picture
"Haplogroup U is estimated to have originated in the Near East or Southwest Asia around 50,000 years ago,"
FamilyTreeDNA
No wonder no one takes you seriously.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What? Are you hard of hearing?
I tire of reposting my assessment comes from labels the report authors used when tabulating haplogroup geography and frequency and I really don't give a flying **** whether you like that or not. It prevents the type of bullshit you indulge in.
In any given report's text you can see authors sometime vary about origin lineage or whatever you want to call it. The tables do not display any ambiguity and say precisely what the authors mean. That's why you don't like the table labels. They shut your mouth up before your **** can fall from it, you and all the other 'my way or the hi-way' disgruntled dissenters.
Because of textual ambiguities and ES posters opinions I laid it out from the start to only go by the geneticists categories as themselves given.
I have posted the tables. I did not alter anything to slant toward my view.
What you want to do is slant things to your view by denying the main criteria, autochthone status. You argue from reductio ad absurdum all the while blithely ignoring by your "methodology" all Hgs will eventuall end up African.
Where did N come from? L3, therefore African. Where did R come from? N, therefore African because parent N was shown to be African. Where did U come from? R, therefore African because parent R was shown to be African.
Stop the madness. U is AfroAsian (the Mideast part of Eurasia). But U's subhaplogroups are not all AfroAsian. Some are AfroAsian because of AfroAsian autochthone status. Some are European because of European autochthone status. One is African because of African autochthone status.
I don't know Swenet, you seem to get more irrational with each succeeding post and so far not a one of your posts has expanded our knowledge of the subject.
Deconstruction is easy. Try constructing something. For the life of me I don't know why you don't build your case as I've recommended you do from the start.
1st reply to you Without twisting geographies as laid out by the reports themselves I invite you and anyone else who's capable to present raw data from a variety of legitimate studies that show Berbers are not primarily African. I welcome and await it.
2nd reply to you I invite you to post whatever you want about why the geneticists' assignments are wrong but that won't change their published assessments making them conform to your opinion. It will round out the thread and contribute to its robustness.
3rd reply to you Your options: 1 - More impotent rhetoric; not worth my time to further respond 2 - Pertinent info on the subject header; enlightenment from you we all will appreciate.
So far you take the lazy way out i.e., option 1 - shitting the bull
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
From the same source as your pretty picture
"Haplogroup U is estimated to have originated in the Near East or Southwest Asia around 50,000 years ago,"
FamilyTreeDNA
No wonder no one takes you seriously. [/QB]
Yuu may have to redo the figures, U6 is therefore primarily Near eastern rather than primarily African
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Per two of my table sources U6 is African. The other one source didn't explicitly say anything about U6 but did say U was Eurasian therefore in that assessment U6 went in the Eurasian bag.
I did not vary from the geneticists labels.
I suggest you write those author and advise them that per FamilyTreeDNA they need to do a redo.
Why do you waver with the wind?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Although Tukualr might have some issues with how certain haplogroups are categorized bewteen African and Eurasian,
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: In any given report's text you can see authors sometime vary about origin lineage or whatever you want to call it. The tables do not display any ambiguity and say precisely what the authors mean.
I’m really scratching my head as to why you’d make such patently false statements. Your blinding emotional attachment to the Africanity of Berbers has you reaching for all sorts of shaky ledges. You’ve made quite a few claims in this thread. I know that you know you rationally can’t justify any of them yourself; you’ve lowered your own standards so as to be unbothered by the barrage of faith-based claims that keep appearing in your posts.
As you very well know, the literature has a decade + tradition of simultaneously accepting the autochthonous nature of Maghreb associated mtDNA and their back-flow origin. This tradition goes from Maca-Meyer 2003, all the way to Henn et al 2012, and several works in between (e.g. Rosa et al 2011). Your use of "autochthonous" as somehow necessarily incompatible with backflow, has no merit to it, whatsoever, both per the definition of the word itself, and per what your own sources mean with it. Hence, why I (correctly) diagnosed your scheme as a prime example of circular reasoning; what you're doing is you attempt to prove your own beliefs (Berbers are primarily African) by using your own beliefs (“Maghrebi” in Sanchez-Quinto means ‘independent of backflow’).
No different from a bible thumper who argues with an atheist, saying that God’s vouch for Jesus in Matthew 3:16 is overwhelming evidence that Jesus was a historical person and heaven-sent, not realizing that his opponent would need to accept the bible in the first place, to be susceptible to this circular argument.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What you want to do is slant things to your view.
False. As I've stated several times, I'm specifically addressing your misrepresentation of the authors' views. There are plenty of claims for me to disagree with in this thread and I never even once engaged you on any of them. As a matter of fact, I even deleted my own post when it dawned on me that your post wasn't a reaction to mine and I've also posted a source that shows that the Berber speakers may have much more autosomal African ancestry than I initially was willing to accept. Your allegation that I'm in it right now to argue contra "primarily African" or that I argue contra whether or not Sanchez-Quinto used "Maghrebi" to name the component that peaks in Berber speakers are just distractions you keep making up to obfuscate the point of contention, re: your circular argument.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
also in these articles they don't combine mtDNA and Y DNA frequencies and call ithem "uniparental" although it was a good effort
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Back-migration..Ha! Ha! Ha! Clown!
There is no such thing as Eurasian lineage!!!! All European lines starts in Africa.
Don't believe me? Check out DNATribes!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Funny how you can miss things the first time around. I read this yesterday and posted on it on ESR. Looked at it again this morning and got hit by the lightening bolt. The Title of the chart said “Possible route of Basal Eurasian”. I missed that.
What other route is there? Hold your breath, it is coming!! Loving it.
I disagree with DNATribes on the extact location in Africa for the Basal Eurasian AIM. I would put it slightly West of the Great Lakes. Why? Luyha. Their genetic material is more consistent with Basal Eurasian genome. HAPMAP.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
All rhetoric No raw data.
Take an X-lax pal. You're full of **** with strawmen running out you mouth like diarrhea just inventing all kinds of nonsense. You can't cut and paste any actual words of mine alleging what you say I said. But when you got no raw data to support your claim the only thing you can do against the raw data that was poste is to smear the poster, debaters dirty trick #1.
All the goobledeegook you can pull out Felix the Cat's debater's Bag o' Trix are 4 kidz will not, cannot, and does not alter the geneticists' tables i.e., * not their geographic labels, * not their haplogroups, * not their frequencies.
It's about the raw data not the textual interpretation which not only varies from geneticist to geneticist but even within a single report sometimes.
I will believe my lying eyes over any Slick Rick Shyster everytime.
Now more about the subject header not poster personalities.
U6 Question: how can an in situ regional specific 30k hg be foreign?
Facts no rhetoric can change: * U6 founder arose in North Africa and has stayed there > ~30,000 years * M1 founder arose in North Africa and has stayed there > ~30,000 years * U6 with minor prehistoric expansion to East Africa. * M1 with major prehistoric expansion to East Africa.
Proof you're just shitting around: * you deny E-M81 is East African just because its parent E-M35 is, but * promote U6 as Eurasian only for the reason its parent U is; * you champion E-M81 as North African because autochthonous there, yet * you assail U6 as North African even though autochthonous there. Who can say "logically irrational"? Who can say "special pleading"? Who can say "personal agenda"?
Settle yourself down and quit lazying outs from my replies
1st reply to you Without twisting geographies as laid out by the reports themselves I invite you and anyone else who's capable to present raw data from a variety of legitimate studies that show Berbers are not primarily African. I welcome and await it.
2nd reply to you I invite you to post whatever you want about why the geneticists' assignments are wrong but that won't change their published assessments making them conform to your opinion. It will round out the thread and contribute to its robustness.
3rd reply to you Your options: 1 - More impotent rhetoric; not worth my time to further respond 2 - Pertinent info on the subject header; enlightenment from you we all will appreciate.
So far you take the lazy way out i.e., option 1 - shitting the bull
Don't be jealous of my work produce work of your own you can do it or maybe you can't.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Reposting for missing caption
= = = = =
Sanchez-Quinto's (2012 with Botigue, Comas & Lalueza-Fox co-authors) Table 1 clearly quantifies their Figure 1.
Here are those charts reordered from inner Africa to Atlantic and Mediterranean North Africa to Arabian Peninsula to European Union Mediterranean countries along with the Canaries.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Sanchez-Quinto's assignment of geographic ancestries, which are in his own words, labeled according to the region where the component is the commonest.
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
Above are the African vs non-African SNP frequencies of each selected African nation and grouped views of them as
* an Atlanto-Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core Maghreb subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
Sanchez-Quinto's study is focused on North African populations. It attempts to discern Neanderthal genome influx.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: Take an X-lax pal. You're full of **** with strawmen running out you mouth like diarrhea just inventing all kinds of nonsense. You can't cut and paste any actual words of mine alleging what you say I said. But when you got no raw data to support your claim the only thing you can do against the raw data that was poste is to smear the poster, debaters dirty trick #1.
Yeah yeah yeah. I see what you’re trying to do. Trying to drag me down the tit for tat path so your blatant fabrications go unnoticed. As for the facts, here they are:
1) You have yet to demonstrate that the Maghrebi component identified by Sanchez-Quinto et al is independent of backflow.
2) Your excuse for not having done so by now, despite me asking for it 5+ times, is because you say you interpret the authors’ label of this component (“Maghreb”) as support for your claim that this component is African, independant of backflow.
3) You were told that the authors explicitly iden- tified this entire component as being Near Eastern in origin, and hence, that your interpretation that the authors’ use of “Maghrebi” must mean that they 1) see this component as independent of backflow and 2) that their view aligns with your own view that Berbers are primarily African, has no merit, whatsoever, and is simply a deceptive fabrication on your part.
4) In response to this damning passage you came up with a face-saving excuse that supposedly justifies preferring an ambiguous label over the authors’ written explanation of that genetic component’s origin (SMDH). Your excuse is that authors often provide conflicting accounts on the origin of ancestry. But this then begs the question, how you know that your “Magreb means African” interpretation is the right one out of the two accounts. How?
5) You were told that the aforementioned excuse has no merit either, because you’re already aware of the fact that that is a 10+ year tradition of considering Maghrebi-specific markers, both uniparental and autosomal, autochthonous to the Maghreb while at the same time considering whoever brought it there, colonists from the Near East.
6) Your reply to the above is a full-fledged rant full of empty accusations and fabrications which, considering the fact that they’re so over the top and false (e.g. “you deny E-M81 is East African”), can only be meant to manipulate and divert attention away from the fact that my latest post left you with no room for an on-topic reply, without making some sort of concession that you've been reaching left and right, like Bob Dole in mid-air when he fell of that stage.
Question: Since the literature routinely identifies Maghrebi-specific ancestry as both autochthonous and the result of backflow (e.g. Rosa et al 2011, Maca-Meyer 2003, Henn et al 2012, etc), how did you come to the conclusion that Sanchez-Quinto et al doing the same, somehow indicates that they voiced support for your claim that this component can be counted as "African"?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Back-migration..Ha! Ha! Ha! Clown! Don't believe me? Check out DNATribes! There is no such thing as Eurasian lineage!!!! All European lines starts in Africa
.
What about Central Asian lines? Do they start in Africa also?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Before we move on. 1 . Do you understand that DNATribes chart shows most modem Eurasian genetic material originated in Sahara Africa? 2. Do you agree with it?
We can then discuss East Asia and the so called Denisovan admixture in Africa. And your new job.
This what I was dumbing down to Beyoku about 9months ago. And he still did not get it. I hope you can.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
There are a few parts of the puzzle still missing. eg when and how the white European male arrived? And confirmation of the migration route. Tribes have already cast doubt on the Levant by using the word "possible". Meaning they have reservation but they are playing ball for now. They are going with the conventional anthropological/archeological data even though the genetic data shows a different route.
More to come .......
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Presenting DNAtribes is no more than presenting an anonymous bloggers opinion. It has no more weight and doesn't serve as supportive evidence like scientific reports and studies with authors' signatures.
Everybody can do what they want to and I don't want to stifle contributors but please please please keep the DNAtribes stuff at a minimum sidebar please.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
hmmmm! I am taken by surprise by that statement. I thought you would be one of the few that understood the relevance of the Tribes post.
Tribes did the same thing as what they did with the Amarnas.
Take published data and plug it into their private database and software and see what comes out. Other software can do the same things
They basically resolved the Berber question with this publication.
Any questions anyone hit me up. Lioness if you need to discuss start a new thread.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Before we move on. 1 . Do you understand that DNATribes chart shows most modem Eurasian genetic material originated in Sahara Africa? 2. Do you agree with it?
We can then discuss East Asia and the so called Denisovan admixture in Africa. And your new job.
This what I was dumbing down to Beyoku about 9months ago. And he still did not get it. I hope you can.
If you had read the DNA chart figre 1 caption above refers to Lazaridis et al's novel concept of "Basal Eurasian" ancestral population of which DNA Tribes misintreprets
but they seem to have additional mapping improvisation excerpts of journa; article on Basal Europeans
Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Dec 2013
Lazaridis, et all
PREPRINT
ABSTRACT
Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans.
This study raises two questions that are important to address in future research. A first is where the EEF picked up their WHG ancestry. Southeastern Europe is a candidate as it lies along the geographic path from Anatolia into central Europe, and hence it should be a priority to study ancient samples from this region. A second question is when and where ANE ancestors admixed with the ancestors of most present-day Europeans. Based on discontinuity in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in Central Europe, this may have occurred during the Late Neolithic or early Bronze Age ~5,500-4,000 years ago35. A central aim for future work should be to collect transects of ancient Europeans through time and space to illuminate the history of these transformations.
...
The absence of Y-haplogroup R1b in our two sample locations is striking given that it is, at present, the major west European lineage. Importantly, however, it has not yet been found in ancient European contexts prior to a Bell Beaker burial from Germany (2,800-2,000BC)12, while the related R1a lineage has a first known occurrence in a Corded Ware burial also from Germany (2,600BC)13. This casts doubt on early suggestions associating these haplogroups with Paleolithic Europeans14, and is more consistent with their Neolithic entry into Europe at least in the case of R1b15, 16. More research is needed to document the time and place of their earliest occurrence in Europe. Interestingly, the Mal’ta boy belonged to haplogroup R* and we tentatively suggest that some haplogroup R bearers may be responsible for the wider dissemination of Ancient North Eurasian ancestry into Europe, as their haplogroup Q relatives may have plausibly done into the Americas17.
(SI12)While our three-way mixture model fits the data for most European populations, two sets of populations are poor fits. First, Sicilians, Maltese, and Ashkenazi Jews have EEF estimates beyond the 0-100% interval (SI13) and they cannot be jointly fit with other Europeans (SI12). These populations may have more Near Eastern ancestry than can be explained via EEF admixture (SI13), an inference that is also suggested by the fact that they fall in the gap between European and Near Eastern populations in the PCA of Fig. 1B. Second, we observe that Finns, Mordovians, Russians, Chuvash, and Saami from northeastern Europe do not fit our model (SI12; Extended Data Table 3). To better understand this, for each West Eurasian population in turn we plotted f4(X, Bedouin2; Han, Mbuti) against f4(X, Bedouin2; MA1, Mbuti), using statistics that measure the degree of a European population’s allele sharing with Han Chinese or MA1 (Extended Data Fig. 7). Europeans fall along a line of slope >1 in the plot of these two statistics. However, northeastern Europeans fall away from this line in the direction of Han. This is consistent with Siberian gene flow into some northeastern Europeans after the initial ANE admixture, and may be related to the fact that Y-chromosome haplogroup N 30, 31 is shared between Siberian and northeastern Europeans32, 33 but not with western Europeans. There may in fact be multiple layers of Siberian gene flow into northeastern Europe after the initial ANE gene flow, as our analyses reported in SI 12 show that some Mordovians, Russians and Chuvash have Siberian-related admixture that is significantly more recent than that in Finns.
_____________________________________________
when people left Africa they were all Africans.
You take this to mean therfore all haplogroups formed in Africa. That is silliness.
Some people in the world are not Africans. But if you follow their ancestry far back enough they Africans
this is what you trip on
It doesn't mean every haplpgroup therefore originated in Africa because their oldest human ancestors were African.
quote from the peer reviewed source article, not the DNA Tribes the private persoanl testing company map>
"We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans."
^^^ Note how in this DNA Tribes has Basal Eurasian in Egypt and their ancestor marked "non-African" somehwere in the horn or Ethiopia and they claim this is based on Lazaridis' article -but their interpretation is screwy and stretches wrongly
-lioness productions
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That's your attempt at a critique ???
I am wasting my time.
Back-migration???????????????
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That's your attempt at a critique ???
I am wasting my time.
Back-migration???????????????
I'm wasting my time, you never looked into the reference in the caption or origininal article they claimed to base the map on.
If you look at the first humans in Africa they were one haplogroup. Then some of them migrated to other places in Africa and different haplogroups of Africans within Africa evolved.
Then people left Africa and have been out of Africa for tens of thousands of years and other haplogroups evolved outside of Africa
but because you are the most dogmatic person on Egypt search you say this is impossible
But it is not impossible.
And once a haplogroup evolves outside of Africa also think it is impossible for some of the people carrying such haplogroups to come back into Africa.
You say this never happened because you have a dogmatic irrational view that back migration cannot occur
That is why you are a waste of time
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Oh! OK! Huh! huh!
I don't argue hypotheticals
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Oh! OK! Huh! huh!
I don't argue hypotheticals
your idea that all haplogroups originated in Africa IS hypothetical
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I consider "back migration" as a back-to-Africa movement or African coalescence of a basal clade belonging to a haplogroup that itself arose from outside of continental Africa.
There are several haplogroups representative of "back migration." They either arose in Africa or en route to Africa. They either appear only in Africa, have their highest frequencies there, or can be shown to have expanded subclades within Africa or to outside of Africa.
In general they are African specific and are not counted as Eurasian "lineages" though they have Eurasian parentage (origin) -- the same as L3M & L3N are not counted as African "lineages" though they, M & N, have African parentage (L3 origin).
This distinction is what separates a haplogroup like R-V88 from J-M267. The former is African specific and ranked with African "lineages" whereas the latter, though found in Africa, is Afroasian specific and is an Eurasian "lineage."
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Question: Since the literature routinely identifies Maghrebi-specific ancestry as both autochthonous and the result of backflow (e.g. Rosa et al 2011, Maca-Meyer 2003, Henn et al 2012, etc), how did you come to the conclusion that Sanchez-Quinto et al doing the same, somehow indicates that they voiced support for your claim that this component can be counted as "African"?
No reply? I'll take that, too. Great. More than great Since most of the remaining posters are nepotist yes-men and/or eager to buy into everything if it strokes their fantasies, I was in it to give readers a way to sort out the facts, themselves. And that's exactly what they got. So, given your eagerness to create a 10+ page thread trying to correct others, but your refusal to answer for your falsehoods under the pretence that you "wish instead of challenges and vying for debate championship (ego-centered) we could all act more like colleagues" I'll let everyone make up their mind regarding whether they think you've been copping out as much as I think you've been. Given your evasive behaviour, again and again and again in response to my basic question regarding your patchy logic, now everyone can now make up their own mind regarding whether or not they find the following passages out of your posts as much epitomes of broken logic and blatant self-serving fabrication as I do:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Sanchez-Quinto's assignment of geographic ancestries, which are in his own words, labeled according to the region where the component is the commonest.
So therefore, I can just recklessly manipulate Sanchez-Quinto labelling convention (i.e. Sanchez- Quinto named this component "Maghreb" due to frequency considerations), and blurt out:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: But when all the data from from 6 different sources is "pooled" Berbers are primarily African.
Very sophisticated reasoning. Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Lioness
Tribes is trying to identify the origin of the "basal Eurasian". 'Basal' being the last/recent that left Africa. WHG/ANE left with the original OOA migration. Basal/EEF are Neolithics.
From Tribes
======
Within Africa, these innovations were integrated into the Pre-Dynastic cultures of Egypt (such as Naqada) and Nubia (further south along the Nile River). This included the emergence of a DISTINCTIVE AFRICAN CATTLE CULTURE attested in the Laas Gaal rock carvings (dated to between 9,000 – 3,000 BCE). As the climate changed and Africa’s “Green Sahara” became a desert, the fertile Nile Valley emerged as an important population and civilization center linking the East Mediterranean with the interior of East Africa, continuing the cycle of contacts that generated the first Out of Africa migrations.
Although the model of human population history described in Lazaridis4 does NOT identify a geographical location where Basal Eurasian populations developed(ORIGIN), the paper’s tree model suggests an origin after an initial split from African moderns and prior to the divergence of Eastern Non-African
To move things along. To those who haven't connected the dots as yet.
WHG/ANE are black skinned as attested to by recent aDNA reports. eg La Brana, Loschbour, ancient Siberian populations. Stuttgart introduced the light pigmentation gene. She was brown and carried the same diversity for skin pigmentation as YRI.
WHG/ANE and Melanese has the same skin profile showing the initially wave was blsck skin. they remain black when they enetred Europe up to 6000BC. Now I see why East asian has a different pigmentation profile for light skin cf to Europeans. Why? East Asians git there profile from the first wave. Europeans got the profile from the 2nd wave..and it was recent.
Remember Lazadaris did NOT specify the origin of EEF. They used YRI as a proxy. they concluded that San were NOT a good proxy.
Again it makes sense. The San light skin profile is unlike YRI.
So, Shriver was correct that AMH left with ability for light skin. And eye color and skin pigmentation is unrelated. he was off with the timing.
It is all falling in place..
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Lioness
Tribes is trying to identify the origin of the "basal Eurasian". 'Basal' being the last/recent that left Africa. WHG/ANE left with the original OOA migration. Basal/EEF are Neolithics.
From Tribes
======
Within Africa, these innovations were integrated into the Pre-Dynastic cultures of Egypt (such as Naqada) and Nubia (further south along the Nile River). This included the emergence of a DISTINCTIVE AFRICAN CATTLE CULTURE attested in the Laas Gaal rock carvings (dated to between 9,000 – 3,000 BCE). As the climate changed and Africa’s “Green Sahara” became a desert, the fertile Nile Valley emerged as an important population and civilization center linking the East Mediterranean with the interior of East Africa, continuing the cycle of contacts that generated the first Out of Africa migrations.
Although the model of human population history described in Lazaridis4 does NOT identify a geographical location where Basal Eurasian populations developed(ORIGIN), the paper’s tree model suggests an origin after an initial split from African moderns and prior to the divergence of Eastern Non-African
And because they have labeled the last/recent that left Africa you assume that this group left and already were carrying the particular haplogroups identified as European, that no haplogroup could have evolved after this settled into Eurasia. That is what you assume over and over again and it's irrational
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: To move things along. To those who haven't connected the dots as yet.
WHG/ANE are black skinned as attested to by recent aDNA reports. eg La Brana, Loschbour, ancient Siberian populations. Stuttgart introduced the light pigmentation gene. She was brown and carried the same diversity for skin pigmentation as YRI.
WHG/ANE and Melanese has the same skin profile showing the initially wave was blsck skin. they remain black when they enetred Europe up to 6000BC. Now I see why East asian has a different pigmentation profile for light skin cf to Europeans. Why? East Asians git there profile from the first wave. Europeans got the profile from the 2nd wave..and it was recent.
Remember Lazadaris did NOT specify the origin of EEF. They used YRI as a proxy. they concluded that San were NOT a good proxy.
Again it makes sense. The San light skin profile is unlike YRI.
So, Shriver was correct that AMH left with ability for light skin. And eye color and skin pigmentation is unrelated. he was off with the timing.
It is all falling in place..
what is falling into place is near to conventional theory but on a shorter time frame but has been discussed for the past seven years
namely that darker skinned people, in prehistoric times before civilization, began to depigment and over several thousands years went from brown skinned and blue eyed to the paler skin of today.
La Brana for instance, is 7000 years old. (not 4000, the figure you keep putting out) La Brana skull
This falls into the time frame of the below article, already much discussed, from seven years ago by Ann Gibbons
Science 20 April 2007: Vol. 316 no. 5823 p. 364 DOI: 10.1126/science.316.5823.364a NEWS FOCUS AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS MEETING
European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests Ann Gibbons PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA-- At the American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting, held here from 28 to 31 March, a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggested that Europeans acquired pale skin quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago.
_______________________________________
this means Eurasians stole everything they know form black people right? All the knowledge
No,
it means they ARE formerly black people (FB)
This is why modern Europeans should be more respectful of black people because they were them not long ago, the ancestors
The mitochondria of both individuals are assigned to U5b2c1, a haplotype common among the small number of other previously studied Mesolithic individuals from Northern and Central Europe. This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. [...] The generated data covered 41,320,020 nucleotide positions for La Braña 1 and 16,876,146 for La Braña 2; thus, about 1.34% and 0.53% of the La Braña 1 and 2 genomes were retrieved, respectively [...] A worldwide genomic principal component analysis (PCA) with data from the 1000 Genomes Project places La Braña 1 and 2 near, but not within the variation of current European populations (Figure S2). However, when compared exclusively to European populations, La Braña 1 and 2 fall closer to Northern European populations such as CEU and Great Britons than Southern European groups such as Iberians or Tuscans (Sánchez-Quinto et al., 2012)
________________________________________
^^^ xyyman, Sardinians out the window
It doesn't matter though.
This is the irrational idea that's going through your head subconsciously> >> Black people coming directly from Africa settled Europe 4000 years ago carrying all the hapologroups found there today It can still fit into the biblical timeline
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If you look at your recently posted DNAtribes map you'll notice it differs not from Wiedner's map's Caucasian lines.
DNAtribes posits Caucasian Europeans sprang up in NE Afr spread to N Afr and to Eur.
At least Wiedner allowed for his negro to reach N Afr.
From old school anthropology to today's molecular biology Euros have not given up on claiming N Afr for Caucasians as best emplified in Maca-Meyer 2003 with her >30,000 year old Caucasians.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Lioness. You are still don't get the whole picture. I know, I know, short retention and attention span.
Sardinian is IN play. Also NW Africa. Tribes used the word "possible" migration. They are leaving room for modification. By the end of the year...they will agree with me as they have done so far.
The only scenario that makes sense is through Iberia and Sardinia. The Nile River Valley was dominated by SSA. Up to today the genetic profile consistently supports that. Female hg_H is virtually absent in the Nile Valley. SSA lineages are dominant. That is why I would put Tribes "basal" more to the South and further West. remember the Luhya and Massai seem ancestral to the Amazigh. Masai are ancestral to indigenous Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Which is the true Berber? I getting good at recognizing an amazigh. Easiest detail is in the Brow height and cheek width.
Amazigh
Turk Berber Imposter
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
more Berbers. Irregardless of skin tone. One can see they are the same ethnic group.
Amazigh. Not an Ottoman Turk. Note facial structure
Sage you are Sahelian. This should be obvious to you.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
and when you put up pictures with no source links or even country of origin all of the sudden it's not "picture spam" as you like to complain about ???
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
DNAtribes posits Caucasian Europeans sprang up in NE Afr spread to N Afr and to Eur.
xyyman had claimed the same thing,
However in the aforementioned DNATribes article the word "Caucasian" doesn't appear, I just checked
However if they did it wouldn't matter if Caucasians don't exist? How could something spring up if it doesn't exist?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
* Egypt is not primarily African * Libya is not primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * S Maroc is primarily African * W Sahara is primarily African * Algeria is primarily African * N Maroc is primarily African.
^^^ I'm trying to figure out how to plug this in to the U.S. census form
^^^ Like for Algeria, Tunisia, etc, being the they are supposedly primarily African do you check "Black" in the box ??
Typical Primarily African Algerians Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
According to the USA census all peoples of N Afr and the "Mid-East" are supposed to check white Caucasian no matter their colour or phenotype.
As far as your pic spam do you have a STRUCTURE or ADMIXTURE skyline of those particular guys? Withou it it it's impossible to tell what those individuals are as far percentages of their DNA heritage.
Mind you that, proven primarily African via their uniparentals and autosomes, Berbers are heavily admixed with non-Africans. That means individual Berbers may be either primarily African or primarily non-African genetically though as an aggregate whole the DNA evidence I posted proves Berbers and Maghrebis in general are primarily African, local African.
Berbers and Maghrebis in general per phenotype are best described as what JA Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" people. That's why they show up in forensic databases as a mixed population like Arabs and Latin Americas.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to the USA census all peoples of N Afr and the "Mid-East" are supposed to check white Caucasian no matter their colour or phenotype.
I have never heard that before. Do you have a source applicable to recent US census (not from 20 years ago) that says the US census says that North Africans are supposed to check White ?? I find it hard to believe,
also the Cencus uses the term "White" currently not "White Caucasian"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sage you are Sahelian. This should be obvious to you.
crickets
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] more Berbers. Irregardless of skin tone. One can see they are the same ethnic group.
no one can't see that, the other women look different also
Also please don't use the word "irregardless"
irregardless an erroneous word that, etymologically, means the opposite of what it is used to express. Attested in non-standard writing from at least 1870s (e.g. "Portsmouth Times," Portsmouth, Ohio, U.S.A., April 11, 1874: "We supported the six successful candidates for Council in the face of a strong opposition. We were led to do so because we believed every man of them would do his whole duty, irregardless of party, and the columns of this paper for one year has [sic] told what is needed."); probably a blend of irrespective and regardless. Perhaps inspired by the colloquial use of the double negative as an emphatic.
^^^ It's double negative to put "irr" next to "regardless"
"irr" means "not" as in "irrational"
print out this picture
show it to your friends
ask them to guess where she's from
then get back to me
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sage you are Sahelian. This should be obvious to you.
I already gave up the facial bone structure of pristine Imazighen. And they are not the only ones that have something like that same shape.
But then you are familiar with Sergi, no?
Thing is I don't contemporary Imazighen or even Arabo-Berbers who deny obviously recent < 1k admixed co-citizens of N Afr are not "Berber" if they display "Berber" ethnic sensibilities or belong to a "Berber tribe" an AHEL AIT or OULD.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Cacausoids were always in Africa. ...Europeans entered Africa relatively recently.
.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
I maintain that kinky hair is a recent adaptation
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
According to the USA census all peoples of N Afr and the "Mid-East" are supposed to check white Caucasian no matter their colour or phenotype.
I have never heard that before. Do you have a source applicable to recent US census (not from 20 years ago) that says the US census says that North Africans are supposed to check White ?? I find it hard to believe,
also the Cencus uses the term "White" currently not "White Caucasian"
White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to the USA census all peoples of N Afr and the "Mid-East" are supposed to check white Caucasian no matter their colour or phenotype.
I have never heard that before. Do you have a source applicable to recent US census (not from 20 years ago) that says the US census says that North Africans are supposed to check White ?? I find it hard to believe,
also the Cencus uses the term "White" currently not "White Caucasian"
I don't know if I recall the Census including this fact sheet in the packet. The quote says " It includes people who indicate their race as "White" They indicate that by choice and people that indicate that for themselves might be North African
quote:
Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.
^^^ this doesn't say excluding North Africans
I don;t think this fact sheet is in the packet or that it necessarily says North Africans are supposed to check White
The Census is self identified currently A Black Moroccan is not likely to check "White" They will check Black and there will not be a problem
However a 'mulatto' person hesitate with the above census section. There is no "pardo" category aka brwon in Spanish as there is on the Brazil census
One could argue that the categories "White" and "Black" be eliminated from the census
---Although at the bottom of the section "Some Other Race" you can skip all the categories and write in whatever you want
Notice they have "Black" and "White" but don't have "Asian" as a race. They could have said "African", " European" , Asian" or "Black" "Yellow""White"
The whole thing is confused and inconsistent
then why did you bring it up lioness?
--for rhetorical purposes
or also to suggest maybe do away with that whole section
Lp
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Berbers being genetically primarily African has absolutely no Pan-African significance whatsoever.
why not?
If they could be convinced with this data of their primary Africaness and be proud of it maybe they could join in?
Didn't Gaddafi talk about Pan-African unity and try to set up a new currency ?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Exactly. Now you are getting it. As you can see I am being proven right. Caucasians have always been in Africa, But Europeans have not. and I maintain Kinky hair is a recent adaptation.
Modern Europeans are an admixture of several waves of Africans. And it is not as Sforza? stated. 2/3 asian etc. Southern Europeans may be 2/3 EEF/African and 1/3 WHG/ANE while Northen Europeans may be the reverse.
I hope you understand now.
R-M269 still have me puzzled.
Oh! I case you haven't notice I prefer to use my own words. I think it is more effective communication. eg irregardless, Europhile, sperming etc.
What do you think Sweetness, you are the communications major.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Cacausoids were always in Africa. ...Europeans entered Africa relatively recently.
.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
I maintain that kinky hair is a recent adaptation
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Exactly. Now you are getting it. As you can see I am being proven right. Caucasians have always been in Africa, But Europeans have not. and I maintain Kinky hair is a recent adaptation.
Modern Europeans are an admixture of several waves of Africans. And it is not as Sforza? stated. 2/3 asian etc. Southern Europeans may be 2/3 EEF/African and 1/3 WHG/ANE while Northen Europeans may be the reverse.
I hope you understand now.
R-M269 still have me puzzled.
Oh! I case you haven't notice I prefer to use my own words. I think it is more effective communication. eg irregardless, Europhile, sperming etc.
Give you what you asked for a gov doc equating white with n afr
and you don't care
you go into flim flam mode believe me and my line of **** not the lying current gov doc.
At least Clyde didn't deny there is a word taMaSHeQ though he blind eyedly denies its the dialectical equivalent of taMaZiGHt, no matter he often presents wordlists with less obvious ties.
Is this it now? Is this where ES is at? Personal preference regardless of valid documentation.
Is it worth the time and effort to research and post the findings just for lurkers who never reply or future surfers GOOGLing around?
White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to the USA census all peoples of N Afr and the "Mid-East" are supposed to check white Caucasian no matter their colour or phenotype.
I have never heard that before. Do you have a source applicable to recent US census (not from 20 years ago) that says the US census says that North Africans are supposed to check White ?? I find it hard to believe,
also the Cencus uses the term "White" currently not "White Caucasian"
I don't know if I recall the Census including this fact sheet in the packet. The quote says " It includes people who indicate their race as "White" They indicate that by choice and people that indicate that for themselves might be North African
quote:
Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.
^^^ this doesn't say excluding North Africans
I don;t think this fact sheet is in the packet or that it necessarily says North Africans are supposed to check White
The Census is self identified currently A Black Moroccan is not likely to check "White" They will check Black and there will not be a problem
However a 'mulatto' person hesitate with the above census section. There is no "pardo" category aka brwon in Spanish as there is on the Brazil census
One could argue that the categories "White" and "Black" be eliminated from the census
---Although at the bottom of the section "Some Other Race" you can skip all the categories and write in whatever you want
Notice they have "Black" and "White" but don't have "Asian" as a race. They could have said "African", " European" , Asian" or "Black" "Yellow""White"
The whole thing is confused and inconsistent
then why did you bring it up lioness?
--for rhetorical purposes
or also to suggest maybe do away with that whole section
Lp
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Like Swenet you really won't care what the sources say (..)
Passive aggressive thrash talking, huh? Please go on with your thread and don't involve me. Thanks.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Not to dragged into personal dialog with someone who can't present an on topic case with supporting data
but
I'll do whatever I damn well please including invoking your name whenever I feel like it. At least I don't raise strawmen and attribute them to you as you have no qualms in doing to me and even with that I still mopped the floor with you.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Never said you don't reserve your right to troll and lie freely.
Look, I don't intend to back and forth with you on this or read your corny comments on what happened days ago. You either comply with my request or you don't; it's *that* simple. There was no need for you to come out of hiding and reply to what I'm saying.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: See, just as predicted.
Give you what you asked for a gov doc equating white with n afr
and you don't care
you go into flim flam mode believe me and my line of **** not the lying current gov doc.
what prediction?
quote: U.S. Census QuickFacts
White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.
Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.
^^^^ you take this to mean
this>>>
quote:Originally posted by Tukular
According to the USA census all peoples of N Afr and the "Mid-East" are supposed to check white Caucasian no matter their colour or phenotype.
This statement is after the fact categorization when a person such as a Moroccan intentionally does not check "White" or "Black" or both "White" and "Black" or mutiple "race" categories
BUT instead at the bottom of the "race" section they write at the bottom of the form " Moroccan" ( or some other NA country) then the US gov assumes the person is White when it comes to compiling statistical information which is later used in race based policies.
I'm not saying it's right but it misleading to say they are telling people to do something. The statement is not even on the Census itself. The Census tells you what to do-pick one or more of any of the categories or write in what you want. It does not show on the form 'White' and have any definition or country listed after it -nor does the fact sheet say anything about "how to fill in section 6. on the US census"
It is an online fact sheet which tells you how they will categorize somebody who writes in their own option
" White...includes people who....report entries such as... Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan,
If a Black Moroccan American chooses "Black" they will be counted as Black.
Should they assume a Moroccan unspecified is White? No They shouldn't assume anything
Some "race" based policies could be affected by the data
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Can you grasp the significance of this? (play Jeopardy Song). So how long have the Amazigh been in Africa? Back migration my……
From the paper cited by TP.
Quote(Cruciani) ===== Four subjects (two Berbers from northwest Africa, one Tuareg and one Fulbe from Niger) were confirmed as belonging to clade A1a.24,29 It is worth noting that this clade was previously detected in west Africa, although at low frequencies.10,30–32 Three chromosomes from the Bakola pygmy group from southern Cameroon (central Africa) were found to carry the derived allele at V164, V166, V196, and P114 and were classified as A1b. Interestingly, one chromosome from an Algerian Berber group (northwest Africa) was found to carry the derived allele at V164, V166, and V196 but carried the ancestral one at P114, implying a bipartite structure for A1b, where P114 defines an internal node.
Clearly, calculation of the precise age of the tree largely depends on the accuracy of the ASSUMED mutation rate. In any case, an antiquity of the root greater than that previously estimated is evident from the present tree structure. It is worth noting that A1b, long neglected in previous large-scale resequencing studies of the MSY, contributes to the older TMRCA and high nucleotide diversity values that we observe, highlighting the importance of targeted studies on rare haplogroups. Third, contrary to previous phylogeny-based conclusions, 15,16 the deepest clades of the revised MSYphylogeny are currently found in central and northwest Africa. MSY lineages from these regions coalesce at an older time (142 KY) than do those from east and south Africa (105 KY), opening new perspectives concerning early modern human evolution. A scenario of a Y chromosome ‘‘Adam’’ living in central-northwest Africa about 140 KY ago would provide a good fit to the present data.
=======
As I said. More to come. Unlike DNATribes I woukd put the “basal Eurasia” gene pool not along the Nile but further South and West.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Bottomline about the USA census. As I stated, it sees North Africans regardless of colour as white aka Caucasian people.
All your todo is hoopla that can't alter the facts as you the Lyin'Ass, Grandstand Dan Swenet, and Flimflam Sam ARtU are apt at attempting but always failing to fulfill.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Note DNAtribes classed its "basal Eurasian" (whatever that's supposed to be) as non-African even though its origin is Sudan and it expands northward via the Gulf of Aqaba from Sudan to the Levant's Rift and westward from Sudan to Libya and the Maghreb.
This is not at all what Sergi proposed.
DNAtribes is nothing to write home about unless one thinks beginnings of Sudanis, Egyptians, Libyans, and Maghrebis are non-African but rather "basal Eurasian."
Imazighen, by definition, can only have been in Africa since the time there was such a language family as Tamazight.
Some definitive components of Imazighen, which are autochthonous thus indigenous in North Africa, can be traced back to the Paleolithic with continuity up to today. Two are mtDNA haplogroups U6 & M1.
L3K while not arising in the Maghreb has been there for some 25-30k pending which molecular biologist one references.
Consider: autochthonous U6 & M1 birthed in North Africa, with U6 found only in Africa until quite recent times, predates many other haplogroups that also arose in Africa.
U6, African specific, is indigenous and just as old if not much older than most other African haplogroups.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Finally an intelligent discourse. We should take this to ESR.
Anyways. We are getting bog down with the label “basal Eurasian”. If it is was spawn in Africa…it is African. That is the bottom-line. We have to get pass the label Eurasian. Remember there is no race….or back-migration.
Agreed, DTribes is nothing to write home about but they attacked the problem I was having when I read the Loschbour/Stuttgart report. The report did not specify WHERE the EEF/Basal Eurasian material developed/originated. Here DTribes is attempting to verify the basal Eurasian source. The Loschbour report used the Negev Bedoiuns as a “jump off’ point in the “Middle East”. But the report went further and stated the source had strong genetic links to YRI. Remember the report used HGDP unlike DTribes. The report ruled out the San groups.
DTribes then use their database and software (albeit private) to narrow down the location. Just as with the Amarnas. Regardless, the basal Eurasian source seems to be between YRI and the Bediouns of Negev.
Anyone who read and understood Henn’s back-migration paper will see a similar theme. Strong genetic link between the Qataris and North Africans. The Loschbour report now confirms it was Africans migrating Out to Asia. DTribes sates “ Sudan to Maghreb to Arabia”
As for Sergi – I can provide citation…for you…but IIRC Sergi hypothesis was very similar. Although not exactly the same. Sergi suggestion was the Eurafricans originated also close to Sudan. They migrated throughout lower Europe and Asia. Bringing their Neolithic technology. Persians, Phoenicians, Nuragic, Iberians etc were all EurAfricans. He differed by suggesting a different population eventually replaced the technologically advanced Neolithic. He was right in that there were two populations and the Eurafricans brought the technology to lower Europe. aDNA is now showing the Eurafricans(basal Europe) probably met the older population in Europe. And not the other way around as Sergi suggested. If you read the Loschbour report in states that EEF/Basal has high frequency at 3 locations in lower Europe. And in the North the frequency is very low. That is why we should not get caught with the label “basal”.
The three points of high frequency in Europe are Iberia, Italy/Sardinia and Greece. Oh, and the Jewish populations in Europe also have relatively high frequency. All pints are closest to Africa with exactly the same frequency. That is why I am convinced the route was NOT through the Negev.
Relevance to Berber and thread? That basal Eurasian is the Amazigh, their origin?, The East Africa(Sudan area) as attested to by numerous genetic reports. M1 Kivilsid et al, nrY-E Eanafaa ? et al. etc.
I am open to counter claims.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You can find actual reports or studies authored by geneticists to source what ever it is you mean by adopting DNAtribes basal Eurasian nomenclature which for them is clearly non-African.
Sergi proposed an EurAFRICAN group that excluded EurASIANS. For Sergi, the two had separate genesis or cranial defining characteristics.
Anyway, don't we already know Eurasian genetics started in Africa with mtDNA L3 and nrY Chromosomes DE and F.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
As I have stated before, a recent migration towards Europe. Whether the author claims some of the "non-scrutiny basal's" as none-African is irrelevant. Since some of these famous acclaimed genetic sequences of basal's arose in Africa anyway. Fact for this matter is seen in nuclear resolutions.
quote: Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans.
[...]
Stuttgart belonged to mtDNA haplogroup T2, typical of Neolithic Europeans10, while Loschbour and all Motala individuals belonged to haplogroups U5 and U2, typical of pre-agricultural Europeans1, 8 (SI4).
[...]
The successful model (Fig. 2A) also suggests 44 ± 10% “Basal Eurasian” admixture into the ancestors of Stuttgart: gene flow into their Near Eastern ancestors from a lineage that diverged prior to the separation of the ancestors of Loschbour and Onge.
Such a scenario, while never suggested previously, is plausible given the early presence of modern humans in the Levant25, African-related tools made by modern humans in Arabia26, 27, and the geographic opportunity for continuous gene flow between the Near East and Africa28.
[...]
Based on discontinuity in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in Central Europe, this may have occurred during the Late Neolithic or early Bronze Age ~5,500-4,000 years ago35. A central aim for future work should be to collect transects of ancient Europeans through time and space to illuminate the history of these transformations.
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak,. Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: Cattle pastoralism is an important trait of African cultures. Ethnographic studies describe the central role played by domestic cattle within many societies, highlighting its social and ideological value well beyond its mere function as ‘walking larder’. Historical depth of this African legacy has been repeatedly assessed in an archaeological perspective, mostly emphasizing a continental vision. Nevertheless, in-depth site-specific studies, with a few exceptions, are lacking. Despite the long tradition of a multi-disciplinary approach to the analysis of pastoral systems in Africa, rarely do early and middle Holocene archaeological contexts feature in the same area the combination of settlement, ceremonial and rock art features so as to be multi-dimensionally explored: the Messak plateau in the Libyan central Sahara represents an outstanding exception. Known for its rich Pleistocene occupation and abundant Holocene rock art, the region, through our research, has also shown to preserve the material evidence of a complex ritual dated to the Middle Pastoral (6080–5120 BP or 5200– 3800 BC). This was centred on the frequent deposition in stone monuments of disarticulated animal remains, mostly cattle. Animal burials are known also from other African contexts, but regional extent of the phenomenon, state of preservation of monuments, and associated rock art make the Messak case unique. GIS analysis, excavation data, radiocarbon dating, zooarchaeological and isotopic (Sr, C, O) analyses of animal remains, and botanical information are used to explore this highly formalized ritual and the lifeways of a pastoral community in the Holocene Sahara.
[...]
Middle Pastoral herders of the central Sahara
Cattle and small livestock were introduced in the Central Sahara at the end of the 8th millennium BP, and slowly adopted by local groups of hunter-gatherers [2]. In the Acacus and Messak mountains (SW Libya) a full exploitation of domesticates, which included dairying [7], is dated to the Middle Pastoral (6100– 5000 BP), a cultural phase generally characterized by wet and warm environmental conditions [34–36].
--Mary Anne Tafuri et al., Inside the ‘‘African Cattle Complex’’: Animal Burials in the Holocene Central Sahara
quote: Archaeologists have uncovered 20 Stone-Age skeletons in and around a rock shelter in Libya's Sahara desert, according to a new study.
The skeletons date between 8,000 and 4,200 years ago, meaning the burial place was used for millennia.
"It must have been a place of memory," said study co-author Mary Anne Tafuri, an archaeologist at the University of Cambridge. "People throughout time have kept it, and they have buried their people, over and over, generation after generation."
About 15 women and children were buried in the rock shelter, while five men and juveniles were buried under giant stone heaps called tumuli outside the shelter during a later period, when the region turned to desert.
The findings, which are detailed in the March issue of the Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, suggest the culture changed with the climate.
Millennia of burials
From about 8,000 to 6,000 years ago, the Sahara desert region, called Wadi Takarkori, was filled with scrubby vegetation and seasonal green patches. Stunning rock art depicts ancient herding animals, such as cows, which require much more water to graze than the current environment could support, Tafuri said.
Tafuri and her colleague Savino di Lernia began excavating the archaeological site between 2003 and 2006. At the same site, archaeologists also uncovered huts, animal bones and pots with traces of the earliest fermented dairy products in Africa. [See Images of the Stone-Age Skeletons]
To date the skeletons, Tafuri measured the remains for concentrations of isotopes, or molecules of the same element with different weights.
The team concluded that the skeletons were buried over four millennia, with most of the remains in the rock shelter buried between 7,300 and 5,600 years ago.
The males and juveniles under the stone heaps were buried starting 4,500 years ago, when the region became more arid. Rock art confirms the dry up, as the cave paintings began to depict goats, which need much less water to graze than cows, Tafuri said.
The ancient people also grew up not far from the area where they were buried, based on a comparison of isotopes in tooth enamel, which forms early in childhood, with elements in the nearby environment.
Shift in culture?
The findings suggest the burial place was used for millennia by the same group of people. It also revealed a divided society.
"The exclusive use of the rock shelter for female and sub-adult burials points to a persistent division based on gender," wrote Marina Gallinaro, a researcher in African studies at Sapienza University of Rome, who was not involved in the study, in an email to LiveScience.
One possibility is that during the earlier period, women had a more critical role in the society, and families may have even traced their descent through the female line. But once the Sahara began its inexorable expansion into the region about 5,000 years ago, the culture shifted and men's prominence may have risen as a result, Gallinaro wrote.
The region as a whole is full of hundreds of sites yet to be excavated, said Luigi Boitani, a biologist at Sapienza University of Rome, who has worked on archaeological sites in the region but was not involved in the study.
"The area is an untapped treasure," Boitani said.
The new discovery also highlights the need to protect the fragile region, which has been closed to archaeologists since the revolution that ousted dictator Moammar el Gadhafi.
Takarkori is very close to the main road that leads from Libya into neighboring Niger, so rebels and other notorious political figures, such as Gadhafi's sons, have frequently passed through the area to escape the country, he said.
according to Alim Bey the Berbers people are descendants of the Kushite people call Barabras. The word Berber come from Barabras.
Alim Bey :"The Nile Nubas or Barabra are the original Ethiopians... All Barbara have wooly hair with scant beards like the figures of Negroes on the walls of the Egyptian temples..." They have rejected the name Nubas as it has become synonymous with slave. They call themselves Barabra, their ancient race name. Sanskrit historians call the Old Race of the Upper Nile Barabra..."Our story passes on to another remnant of the ancient Cushite empire, that baffling race, the Iberians, now represented by the Basques; then to the Berbers of North Africa, another branch of the Cushite race. Some scientists have called them the descendents of the "People of Atlantis." (read "WONDERFUL ETHIOPIANS OF THE ANCIENT CUSHITE EMPIRE" by Drusilla Dunjee Houston).
Read "THE PHILOSPHY OF SYMBOLIC FORMS: Vol 1: LANGUAGES" There are: Northern Cushites (mainly in Sudan and Eritrea, and North African Berber, the original 'Berbers' were Ethiopians / Cushites called 'Barabra' or 'Nubian'...hence the origin of the word 'Barbarian'), Central Cushites (also called the Agau group; mainly in Ethiopia, including the Jewish (Hebraic) Falashim, and bearing strong Ethiopic and Amharic influence), the Western Cushites (or Omotic; spoken along the western border of Ethiopia near Kenya), the Southern Cushites (mainly in Tanzania, including the Iraqw, Asa and Ngomwia) and the Eastern Cushites
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Argyle, did you read my first post of today? Yes but it doesn't please you and so whine on.
You post is typical waffling from you and only serves to prove may point.
For example, you keep babbling about U6 being indigenous to North Africa. You don't seem to understand that even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. Its parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia.
This may help you understand (take your time to look at it):
You try to make this about me and you but truly even fellow Swenet told you about it and explained to it to xyyman in other posts.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
So the specimen at taforalt are European immigrants from a very long time ago who then admixed with other Eurasian and African populations.
The genetic nuclear resolution path, follows the same path as the archeological and anthropological path. Is this irony coincidental?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
quote:
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
However, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies reflect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Relevance to Berber and thread? That basal Eurasian is the Amazigh, their origin?, The East Africa(Sudan area) as attested to by numerous genetic reports. M1 Kivilsid et al, nrY-E Eanafaa ? et al. etc.
I am open to counter claims.
OMG I'm starting to see this too. Africa was far more advanced thus Berbers are like the Jews of the Bible they left black and came back white.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
Of course the origins of the Berber ethnicity is in Africa. Though there are some Berbers who are mostly European. But the historic Berber origins is again East African and thus African.
As for U6 and its migration to the Maghreb 30k years ago from Eurasia, only some Berbers carry that clade due to those East Africans absorbing those people.
But more importantly by the time of Berber culture/language arising an SNP event would have undergone for U6 making it unique/local to North Africa and thus African. Not only that U6 is also found in East and West Africa if I remember correctly.
And if I remember correctly don't Tuaregs carry the oldest Berber markers?
Anyways I have done a lot of research on this topic and it seems Eurocentrics are obsessed with excluding Berbers from Africa.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
I can see why they are obsessed. Berbers are history's second white people that I know of. There were white Berbers in ancient times. I'm just pointing out that Berbers were dark skin people entering Europe.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Needs newer whole genome updating with GLOBETROTTER fineSTRUCTURE MALDER applied to the data.
I think founder U6 was recently uncovered in eastern Europe somewhere.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Mind you that, proven primarily African via their uniparentals and autosomes, Berbers are heavily admixed with non-Africans. That means individual Berbers may be either primarily African or primarily non-African genetically though as an aggregate whole the DNA evidence I posted proves Berbers and Maghrebis in general are primarily African, local African.
Berbers and Maghrebis in general per phenotype are best described as what JA Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" people. That's why they show up in forensic databases as a mixed population like Arabs and Latin Americas.
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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Modern North Africans mainly descend from vandal/Arab/roman and African men mixed with middle eastern and white slave women
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: There were white Berbers in ancient times.
According to who?
i hope your not referencing the tamahu because ancient Egyptians did not have maps to pin point their location thus making their true location unknown
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