quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Argyle, did you read my first post of today? Yes but it doesn't please you and so whine on.
You post is typical waffling from you and only serves to prove may point.
For example, you keep babbling about U6 being indigenous to North Africa. You don't seem to understand that even if the mutation U6 first appeared in North Africa. Its parent basal U, and grandparents R and N haplogroups originated outside Africa in Europe and Asia.
This may help you understand (take your time to look at it):
You try to make this about me and you but truly even fellow Swenet told you about it and explained to it to xyyman in other posts.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants .
So the specimen at taforalt are European immigrants from a very long time ago who then admixed with other Eurasian and African populations.
The genetic nuclear resolution path, follows the same path as the archeological and anthropological path. Is this irony coincidental?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
quote:
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
However, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies reflect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
That's 85.7% unless you think L3 is Eurasian and stop acting so stupid. What did I say about Eurasian haplogroups actually being there all along over the past years?
Not to mention just yesterday I posted maybe why Eurasian predominated.
You just want to gloss over the fact that L3 is 8000 years older in in the Maghreb than H.
You can't discount all the L possibilities of Kefi's ragtag 1 or 2 or at most three mutation micro-mini-"sequence" haplotypes.
Kefi's published report her confusion over one sample TafXXIV unable to tell it's JT or U6. Yet in the PPT she lists it U6 though separated from her other U6 sample TafVI9E.
Of course the thing no one wants to talk about aDNA analysis is the fact that these fossils discovered before 2000 have been handled by who knows how many anthropologists taking measurements without taking precautions against contamination.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
this analysis indicates the Taforalt population was primarily Eurasian by a large margin, 90%, 18 out of 21
is there a double standard here, where in Bekada you add up everything but here you have one individual in question and that justifies not considering any of the frequencies at all ?
Kefi's table has 23 entries.
Three Taf V entries were reduced to one, leaving a base of 21 entries.
Kefi has: * local North African U6 at 9.5% (2/21) * presumed foreign H U JT V at 90.5% (but 18/21 = 85.7%) * presumed "sub-Sudanese" L3/M/N at 0% (but 1/21 = 4.8%)
Note that 9.5 + 85.7 = 95.2 not 100
To arrive at 90.5% for H U JT V Kefi had to add the sub-Sudanese 4.8% to the foreign 85.7%. Kefi, with a stroke of the pen and hoping no one would notice, added sub-Sudanese L3/M/N to the Eurasiatic component.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here. What you wrote about that is the most convoluted crock of **** from you to date!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@ Ish
Forget it, man.
You'll never educate those unwilling to learn
Foolish fantasizers see a Maghreb absent of population until some wonderful mystical magical Euros traipsed in a mere 12k.
They will play 3 Blind Monkeys to the fact of a Maurusian Maghreb populated by Mechta-Afalou since 20k with their U6 M1 L3 mtDNA.
I mean look at Kefi still as late as a 2013 conference presentation ignoring her own L3 finding of 2005 all in the name of a SSA free N Africa before slavery.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
simple question for the benefit of all readers of this thread, in your opinion, according to Hg frequencies recorded were most of the Taforalt, maternally prImarily African?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here.
So tell us wise one why according to your Bekada compiling do Maghrebians on average have around 60% Eurasian maternal DNA ?
Tell us how it happened, why it's weighted toward females
otherwise dont flap your gums
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here. What you wrote about that is the most convoluted crock of **** from you to date!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
simple question for the benefit of all readers of this thread, in your opinion, according to Hg frequencies recorded were most of the Taforalt, maternally primarily African?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukular do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Always asking never answering
You owe me
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
.
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
BTW you must realize your raids rape pillage analogy is absolutely inapplicable here. What you wrote about that is the most convoluted crock of **** from you to date!
I gave you the sober explanation. It's a pattern seen throughout history. It's called replacement by invasion. One group invades and takes over. They kill, chase or enslave the men and rape their women. That is what occupiers do, look into anthropology texts
Similarly looking at the barbary pirates, one of the later waves of Eurasians in NA, they abducted several fold more men then they did women because they not only raided European towns they took over ships at sea and these had all male crews of sailors. -therefore more men were taken and there is supporting evidence
Then what happened to all the male DNA?
The men were either put to work, killed or eventually found their way back to Europe. But the sultans kept the much smaller numbers of women in harems to have sex with.
This is the sober explanation. I've already given it, rape and pillage is a pattern all throughout history in times of war or invasion. This has an impact on the DNA
You have a better explanation ??
So step up to the plate and tell us why according to your compiling of Bekada do Maghrebians on average have around 60% Eurasian maternal DNA ?
Tell us how it happened, why it's weighted toward females
I'LL WAIT............
lioness prodcuctions stop it, that hurtsPosts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Please give us a "yes" or "no" first before massive quoting and charts thank you
I can answer it, but I won't, since you've asked Tukuler this first.
Your dissatisfaction of his response led towards me.
Tukuler is apparently waiting for an answer. Before addressing your question.
Deal with it. Don't try to use me as your vehicle. But the answer to your question can be found in the nuclear resolution path. Thanks.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
The irony is that there was no British folks back then.
Suggested is that the makeup of the British Isles either came from the Iberian or North Europe.
That population is relatively young. By two sections. An ancient population and later a enslaved population. Taken by Vikings. In any case, the British Isles population is younger then that of a Northwest Africa. It's also ironic Europeans lack certain nuclear level mitochondrial African Hg's, but which can be found in Northwest Africans.
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Please give us a "yes" or "no" first
I can answer it, but I won't, since you've asked Tukuler this first.
He doesn't want to answer it
However that has nothing to do with you. You are not his official spokesperson
I cant force him or you to answer this question.
I you tw are scared to answer it I will have to move on to other people with more fortitude
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I gave him an answer twice he just didn't like it.
But that has zero to do with you.
It's o.k. don't answer
It's ok of you are not up to a challenge becuase of what I do or dont do, on to the next
You have to await his response....
You asked his first...
He explained the nuclear resolutions in the mitochondrial tree.
Do you understand his explanation?
quote: PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
The irony is that there was no British folks back then.
It's also ironic that there were no African Americans back then. Yes irony abounds on this chart
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
The irony is that there was no British folks back then.
It's also ironic that there were no African Americans back then. Yes irony abounds on this chart
Funny is that African Americans descent from Africans, in Africa.
Such irony.
Another irony is the climatic change in Northwest Africa during the Epipaleolithic.
Change effects change....hence mutation.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote: Africa is the birthplace of modern humans, and is the source of the geographic expansion of ancestral populations into other regions of the world. Indigenous Africans are characterized by high levels of genetic diversity within and between populations. The pattern of genetic variation in these populations has been shaped by demographic events occurring over the last 200,000 years. The dramatic variation in climate, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent has also resulted in novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations in extant Africans.
--Sarah A. Tishkoff., The Evolution of Human Genetic and Phenotypic Variation in Africa
quote: "This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP"
[...]
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: And; Table S5: Populations considered for the mutations defining major clades A1b, A1a and A2-T.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Yes, I am not his appointed spokesman/ follower. I am someone who understands his explanation. As I did and from day one.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Yes, I am not his appointed spokesman/ follower. I am someone who understands his explanation. As I did and from day one.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
See, all Africans are rooted in the same. Northeast, Northwest, Central, West, East, South Africa.
If the ancestors of contemporary white Europeans who currently live in South Africa remain there for 10,000 years will they become biologically African?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Scared of what? A Lyin'Ass piece of Snaky sidewinding distorting unflushable **** like you whose attention span is zero and can not retain info posted the same day you post?
No dumbass I posted about that before you even asked. Go back scroll up read and comprehend. I'm not flimflam ARTU I don't need to repeat and repeat and repeat what one who really reads and absorbs can recall.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Since the overall genome of living Berbers and Maghrebis in general tip the scale toward African predominance the idea has now become to trump up the mtDNA of Taforalt.
Guess what?
The current population remains primarily African -- with deep African roots as well as recent African limbs branches and tips -- heavily admixed with Eurasians.
That's a statistical fact despite any "believe me not your lying eyes" flim-flam.
simple question for the benefit of all readers of this thread, in your opinion, according to Hg frequencies recorded were most of the Taforalt, maternally primarily African?
scared?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
This is your answer for non-existant male specific DNA accompanying H and V Maurusian females? Back in EpiPaleolithic Alboran? Hahahahahahah! Who bought your purely speculative script? HBO SHO STARZ? When does it air? The 32nd of Neveruary? Damn you sure got jokes. Lame, but still jokes anyway. But no joke you couldn't name even one nrY haplogroup.
The queen of bait and switch "debate."
quote:Originall posted by al~Takruri:
But please tell us your "sober explanations" of which nrY may have existed in Maurusians.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Then what happened to all the male DNA?
The men were either put to work, killed or eventually found their way back to Europe.
Lyin' Ass Fuckuptions stop it, that hurts
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lol! HBO has better scripts. Lioness fantasy is in the realm of a really really bad USA Network B class shown on late nights. Yeah! "The men went back to Europe". The man is a total idiot or just clowning around.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
How about a total idiot clowning around with sinister intent toward the unwary.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Lol! HBO has better scripts. Lioness fantasy is in the realm of a really really bad USA Network B class shown on late nights. Yeah! "The men went back to Europe". The man is a total idiot or just clowning around.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
^^^xyyman, Tukular whipped up this chart based on Badro. He argues berbers are primarily Afican because when the maternal and pateral percentages are added up, African is higher. I said it was a reasonable argument although other thread makers beg to differ.
But at the same time there are high maternal Eurasian percentages, most around 60% (marked UF) and that contrasts with the paternal frequenices that are lower for Eurasian and up to 92% African (marked AF)
You say that the idea that female-only groups of Eurasians wandered into the region is implausible and I agree.
So what is your explanation for it ?? Why is the maternal DNA more Eurasian but the paternal DNA more African Tukular is dumbfounded
also,do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations Danielle A. Badro, 2013
The two leading principal components displayed in Figure 2 capture 47.9% and 26.9% of the variance showing a well-defined separation between Mediterranean African populations and sub-Saharan populations (Fig 2a). There is a clear cluster of North African populations comprised of Libyans, Moroccans, and Tunisians. The Nile River marks another boundary of mtDNA differentiation within Africa, linking Egypt, Ethiopia and Kenya but also extending through to Yemen. Yemenis and Saudis both associate strongly with Egyptians, whereas the Jordanian, Lebanese, Palestinian, and Syrian populations clustered together. Thus, the Arabian Peninsula population clusters were relatively differentiated from the more northern Levantine populations.
The principal vectors for HV, T, K, J, and U point almost directly at the Levantine cluster (Fig 2a). H marks Western Europe and is a significant contributor to Libyan Sahara and Mali mtDNA diversity. L2 and L3 frequencies distinguish the populations of Kenya, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Tunisia, and Libyan Sahara, with a decrease in frequencies of L haplotypes from Kenya through Saudi Arabia.
The dendrogram based on mtDNA haplogroup frequencies (Fig 2b) reveals the strongest differentiation across the Sahara, showing the northern populations differentiated from the southern ones (with Nigeria, Kenya, Mali, Libyan South Sahara, and Burkina-Faso). Egyptian, Yemeni, Saudi Arabian, and Ethiopian populations form a cluster that is distinct from the rest of North Africa, the remaining parts of the Middle East, and Europe. Among these, Libyans, Moroccans, and Tunisians, form a cluster.
UPGMA and PCA showed Yemenis and Saudis (two of the STR predicted Hg populations) closely associated, forming a clear outlier to clusters identifying more northerly Middle Eastern populations and Europe. Slovaks (the third predicted population) also formed a distinct outlier to all of these. Africans were partitioned into northern African populations and Sahel populations, and distinct from the other populations. Burkinabe formed a very distinct outlier to every other population.
For the mtDNA HVS-I FST MDS analysis, the European populations formed a clear cluster very close to the Cypriots, Jordanians, Lebanese, Palestinians, and Syrians. Egyptian, Libyan, Moroccan, and Tunisian populations form a clear cluster. Significantly, Yemenis are on the far side of North Africans, distinct from the Levantine populations and the Libyan Sahara population stands significantly separated from the North African group. The sub-Saharan populations are clearly distinguished from the Mediterranean populations and show significant distances between them in comparison to the Mediterranean populations. The mtDNA HVS-I MDS and dendrogram show most of the Levantine and Arabian Peninsula populations clustering together. Significantly, Yemenis do not seem to cluster with proximal African populations or with Saudis. The entire Levant population seems to cluster with Western Europeans, Southeastern Europeans, and Slovaks.
Whether considering haplogroup composition revealed in Fisher tests, PCA, or FST based MDS analysis of HVS-I data, mtDNA shows a much stronger affinity between Levantine populations and Europeans compared with the rest of the Middle Eastern populations, or with North Africans. While Lebanese and Yemeni mtDNA epitomize very distinct affinities to different populations and regions well outside of the Middle East, Saudi Arabia seems to display strong local over-representation haplogroup J, while Yemen is even more localized in its L6. Further, these large-scale differences in affinity between mtDNA genetics appear in sharp contrast to regional affinities seen in their Y-chromosomal counterparts. While the mtDNA signal is sharp and clear in its affinities, the Y-chromosome results show somewhat more ambiguous associations in RST based analyses, with Lebanese showing less within-group variation when organized consistently with mtDNA and demonstrating associations closer to Europeans than Africans. This would suggest that while male migrants accompanied female migrants, especially to Europe, females did not always accompany male migrants, especially into North Africa. This leaves a more ambiguous signal for male compared to female migrations.
The historical and archaeological record reveals how trade and labour, colonization and settlement events, and military expansions all contributed to the immigration and displacement of individuals throughout these regions. As a distinct crossroad between geographic regions and civilizations, the Levant and the Near East harbour unique genetic affinities which are revealed most clearly through the comparison of Y-chromosome and mtDNA data.
Due to uncertainties in haplogroup inference from STRs, specific questions regarding affinities of Yemen with Ethiopia vs. Egypt are inaccessible, as are questions regarding the relationship of Saudi Arabian haplogroups both similar to Yemenis or differentiated from Yemenis in affinity with African populations.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
al~Takruri prepared comparative charts from three of the latest uniparental reports that included Berbers Maghrebis and or littoral North Africans in an attempt to ascertain if Berbers are not primarily African.
The Lioness stipulated primarily means equal to or greater than 51%. Brekdowns into NA Berber and core Maghreb subsets were also stipulated by the Lioness. I honored those stipulations and I honored each report's geographic assignments for the involved haplogroups even when one placed a specific hg in one geography and another placed the selfsame hg in the opposite geography. No a priori agenda on my part, I even went back and corrected my mistaken placement of one group when I realized my bad.
The stats speak for themselves. Give ear and hear them out as is. Listen to what they have to say.
The uniparentals support Berbers are primarily African.
@ the ES readership
I also have three autosome skylines. They too support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Two are already posted but without the analysis I gave the uniparentals. Will repost with the 3rd and write-ups for all three when I feel like it.
All are welcome to compile the raw data from the most recent relevant resources just as I have and post their findings.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
@Lioness. I answered your question going over two years ago. I disagree with some brothas on this Forum. Berbers are primarily Africans.
Now as for Ancient Egyptians vs Amazigh. Linguistically they share affinity. Morphological they share some commonality. Based on work by T Holliday. There is also a cultural and archeological connection. But based upon published genetic data there are similarities and differences. Eg Amarna and others show a strong SSA link. Even moden Egyptians show a strong SSA affinity. Those to the north show clear Levantine affinity.
You have to look at this holistically. Eg the Saharawis and Tunisian carry H/HV but there AIM/SNP profile show ZERO Eutopean connection. Henn and Behar saw the same pattern. Henn like Sergi concluded it was a one way migration. Not the reverse.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Baed upon recent work by Henn, kittles, wells etc, European are an admixture of three waves. The last wave occurring about 4k bc. In case you missed it Sforza may be wrong about the genetic make up of Europeans.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
where's the AIMs ?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Tukuler is not dumbfounded. Lyin'Ass is dumb. I gave my explanation before Lyin'Ass even formed query.
Astute readers noticed it. Asshole readers noticed it too but what do you expect of an asshole other than **** like making pretend they didn't see it and refusing to go back and reread it after telling them three times I won't repeat it special for them when all they have to do is go reread what I wrote on maybe why H predominates the Taforalt fossils which shows along with L3 as a North African haplogroup of EpiPaleolithic to modern times continuity.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Why is the maternal DNA more Eurasian but the paternal DNA more African Tukular is dumbfounded
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] @Lioness. I answered your question going over two years ago. I disagree with some brothas on this Forum. Berbers are primarily Africans.
as just stated "primarily" means over 50%
Look at the charts Tukular jus put up. On a uniparental basis according to haplogroup frquencies they are primarily African
But at the same time why do they have so much maternal Eurasian DNA (marked UA on the charts around 60% in many cases) You could chp it down to 30% and it would still be a lot
How did this happen? no jokes, either you have an explanation for the mt and Y origin differences or you don't
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Get the 10,000ft view. Compare apples and apples.
North Africans vs Europeans, North Africans vs Middle East, Middle East vs Europe.
In all categories North Africans are older than Europeans, so calling these markers European is delusional.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tukuler is not dumbfounded. Lyin'Ass is dumb. I gave my explanation before Lyin'Ass even formed query.
Astute readers noticed it. Asshole readers noticed it too but what do you expect of an asshole other than **** like making pretend they didn't see it and refusing to go back and reread it after telling them three times I won't repeat it special for them when all they have to do is go reread what I wrote on maybe why H predominates the Taforalt fossils which shows along with L3 as a North African haplogroup of EpiPaleolithic to modern times continuity.
You don't write clearly. You write in a convoluted psuedo intellectual manner where people can't determine what your exact opinion is >by intention
1) do berbers and ancient Egyptians have the same biological roots?
^^^ a simple yes or no question
2) of the DNA frequencies that have been published by Kefi were the Taforalt people primarily African?
^^^ a simple yes or no question ( and you have already given an answer in the case of modern NAs)
3) why do modern North Africans have much more Eurasian DNA on their maternal side than they do on their paternal side ?
_______________
as in scientific article clear claims are made in the abstract, technical detail follows in other sections
- no it shouldn't be a dig into the method section to figure out what the hypothesis or claim is
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: al~Takruri prepared comparative charts from three of the latest uniparental reports that included Berbers Maghrebis and or littoral North Africans in an attempt to ascertain if Berbers are not primarily African.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is NO such things as Eurasian ancestry.
But xyyman, al~Takruri, one of the Tukular split personalities spent a lot of time making the above charts.
Look at the legend "UA" = Eurasian, there's quite a bit of it represented even under primarily African circumstances. Does he have it mismarked ? Did the great sage mess up ???
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Snort
Typical of an ass to think there's a hiding alias Tukuler vs al~Takruri when the fromline makes the identity obvious with the same avatar too.
Naw, I'm no great sage but I appreciate the respect the honor.
Double naw, I ain't spoon feeding you no answers already given. Your dumbass read 'em once when I posted 'em. Your dumbass can go and reread 'em.
Anybody else unclear on what I posit? Just ask and I'll clarify/expand.
But Lyin'Ass can go fish!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Lioness. I answered your question going over two years ago. I disagree with some brothas on this Forum. Berbers are primarily Africans.
Now as for Ancient Egyptians vs Amazigh. Linguistically they share affinity. Morphological they share some commonality. Based on work by T Holliday. There is also a cultural and archeological connection. But based upon published genetic data there are similarities and differences. Eg Amarna and others show a strong SSA link. Even moden Egyptians show a strong SSA affinity. Those to the north show clear Levantine affinity.
You have to look at this holistically. Eg the Saharawis and Tunisian carry H/HV but there AIM/SNP profile show ZERO Eutopean connection. Henn and Behar saw the same pattern. Henn like Sergi concluded it was a one way migration. Not the reverse.
Egyptian and Berber languages do not share affinity.
They are related via Semitic elements in Berber. There is no cultural evidence collected that unite the Berbers and Egyptians. The Berbers only recently came to Siwan as discussed earlier.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasThe Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan is.com/siwa_his.html )
posted
Clyde it's true M81 which is common to most berbers originated in the Maghreb at what is thought to be 5,600 years ago, However M35 which is much older is thought to maybe have originated in the horn and is also thought to be the ancestor of M81.
But the Siwa are somewhat of an outlier comapred to ther berbers. They carry U5b unlike other berbers who tend to be U6. And on the paternal said their frequencies of M81 are little to none. Not only that their M35 frequencies are low. The ancestry of the berbers is a complex subject and varies from group to group
^^^ Tukular do the math on this for the primarily. I'm not up to it.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.
Troll Patrol how can this be?
You are always showing the below map where M81, the berber marker is an extension of M35 coming from East Africa?
And it's going right across Egypt. If you go by this map, paternally the ancient Egyptians and the berbers go back to the same root, to Ethiopia
map: Y Haplogroups, A Review of the Possibility of Multidisciplinary Comparisons Using the Case of Haplogroup E-M35, Andrew Lancaster 2009
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West.
Troll Patrol how can this be?
You are always showing the below map where M81, the berber marker is an extension of M35 coming from East Africa?
And it's going right across Egypt. If you go by this map, paternally the ancient Egyptians and the berbers go back to the same root, to Ethiopia
map: Y Haplogroups, A Review of the Possibility of Multidisciplinary Comparisons Using the Case of Haplogroup E-M35, Andrew Lancaster 2009
This map can also be interpreted as representing the spread of this haplogroup in North Africa prior to the Vandal expasion into North Africa. Berbers carrying this gene are therefore descendants of the original Blacks who were the majority in North Africa before the Portuguesebegan the Atlantic slave trade.
posted
the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the point is you've been saying the berbers are from the West. Most berbers (except Siwa) carry high M81 frequencies. If Lancaster is correct, this leads back to what is thought to be the ancestor of M81, M35, in East Africa. And that's supposedly, the paternal root
I thought, Lancaster pointed to the sahel--not east Africa.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic