quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember Otzi was first said to have blue eyes then that was changed to brown/black eyes. And did NOT have the infamous slc45 white gene Lol!
Lying delusional Europeans!!!!
It is simple logic and common sense Iberia, Greece and Rome is next door to Africa what do they expect. Lol!
I don't believe the blue eye story , need to read the original paper and supplementals.
quote: Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote: People with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor, according to new research.
A team of scientists has tracked down a genetic mutation that leads to blue eyes. The mutation occurred between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, so before then, there were no blue eyes.
"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine at the University of Copenhagen.
The mutation affected the so-called OCA2 gene, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives color to our hair, eyes and skin.
"A genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a 'switch,' which literally 'turned off' the ability to produce brown eyes," Eiberg said.
The genetic switch is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 and rather than completely turning off the gene, the switch limits its action, which reduces the production of melanin in the iris. In effect, the turned-down switch diluted brown eyes to blue.
If the OCA2 gene had been completely shut down, our hair, eyes and skin would be melanin-less, a condition known as albinism.
"It's exactly what I sort of expected to see from what we know about selection around this area," said John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, referring to the study results regarding the OCA2 gene. Hawks was not involved in the current study.
Baby blues
Eiberg and his team examined DNA from mitochondria, the cells' energy-making structures, of blue-eyed individuals in countries including Jordan, Denmark and Turkey. This genetic material comes from females, so it can trace maternal lineages.
They specifically looked at sequences of DNA on the OCA2 gene and the genetic mutation associated with turning down melanin production.
Over the course of several generations, segments of ancestral DNA get shuffled so that individuals have varying sequences. Some of these segments, however, that haven't been reshuffled are called haplotypes. If a group of individuals shares long haplotypes, that means the sequence arose relatively recently in our human ancestors. The DNA sequence didn't have enough time to get mixed up.
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"What they were able to show is that the people who have blue eyes in Denmark, as far as Jordan, these people all have this same haplotype, they all have exactly the same gene changes that are all linked to this one mutation that makes eyes blue," Hawks said in a telephone interview.
Melanin switch
The mutation is what regulates the OCA2 switch for melanin production. And depending on the amount of melanin in the iris, a person can end up with eye color ranging from brown to green. Brown-eyed individuals have considerable individual variation in the area of their DNA that controls melanin production. But they found that blue-eyed individuals only have a small degree of variation in the amount of melanin in their eyes.
"Out of 800 persons we have only found one person which didn't fit — but his eye color was blue with a single brown spot," Eiberg told LiveScience, referring to the finding that blue-eyed individuals all had the same sequence of DNA linked with melanin production.
"From this we can conclude that all blue-eyed individuals are linked to the same ancestor," Eiberg said. "They have all inherited the same switch at exactly the same spot in their DNA." Eiberg and his colleagues detailed their study in the Jan. 3 online edition of the journal Human Genetics.
That genetic switch somehow spread throughout Europe and now other parts of the world.
"The question really is, 'Why did we go from having nobody on Earth with blue eyes 10,000 years ago to having 20 or 40 percent of Europeans having blue eyes now?" Hawks said. "This gene does something good for people. It makes them have more kids."
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember Otzi was first said to have blue eyes then that was changed to brown/black eyes. And did NOT have the infamous slc45 white gene Lol!
Lying delusional Europeans!!!!
It is simple logic and common sense Iberia, Greece and Rome is next door to Africa what do they expect. Lol!
I don't believe the blue eye story , need to read the original paper and supplementals.
what about the part where his DNA is closest to modern Sardinians?
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That's all you got to say Lioness. History is being rewritten right in front of you. Did you read the other recent one by Quinto et al? Damn! Achille and Torronni days are numbered. Their lies are being exposed. Fortunately there are Europeans that have the courage to expose the lies. There was complete population replacement starting in the Bronze Age. Mike, Marc? Obviously mtDNA H is African but what about R-M269
aDNA is going to shatter the lies!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He has interetsing features
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posted
You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
you are ranting. If Otzi man is closest in DNA to modern Sardinians then Otzi man is closest Sardinians. So take a look at some modern Sardinians
and after 7000 years they might be brown but not as dark as Otzi man and Otzi man isn't even that dark, look at him and this is after probably some darkening due to the after death state of the skin.
Look, you don't even have to consider the exact skin tone. Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians. So if you want to say modern Sardinians are primarily African fine, the fact remains Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians
So what's the problem? You are then saying you think modern Sardinians are African. This is the inevitable you were talking about?
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Yes. I am ranting, I am enjoying the moment.
Quote; he carried the ancestral allele in SEVERAL pigmentation genes. SEVERAL ancestral. The man was pitch black. Lol! I need proof he had blue eyes.
Don't you get it. There is no Race. Just waves upon waves of Africans leaving Africa and adapting. No admixture needed.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
you are ranting. If Otzi man is closest in DNA to modern Sardinians then Otzi man is closest Sardinians. So take a look at some modern Sardinians
and after 7000 years they might be brown but not as dark as Otzi man and Otzi man isn't even that dark, look at him and this is after probably some darkening due to the after death state of the skin.
Look, you don't even have to consider the exact skin tone. Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians. So if you want to say modern Sardinians are primarily African fine, the fact remains Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians
So what's the problem? You are then saying you think modern Sardinians are African. This is the inevitable you were talking about?
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posted
There is no need to have genetic proof of his skin tone. You can see it in the damn picture, preserved in ice !! If anything there is still some decay and the skin is darker to some degree than it was when he was alive, probably minimally darker. So look at him he's yellowish brown. What's the problem? This is a very rare specimen of somebody frozen in ice
What is hypothetical? His DNA is closest to modern Sardinians. That's not hypothetical. So what's the problem???
So you think modern Sardinians are primarily African, ok fine, no "what ifs" necessary
So what's the problem?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
What is hypothetical? His DNA is closest to modern Sardinians. That's not hypothetical. So what's the problem???
So you think modern Sardinians are primarily African, ok fine, no "what ifs" necessary
So what's the problem?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
posted
I need to dumb it down. It is very simple. It is the same scenario that played out in the "Pillars of Hercules" study. Saharawi carry ALL the HV mtDNA halplotypes found on mainland Europe PLUS more. Also, all the haplotypes found in Europe are found in the Saharawi's. European mtDNA HV is a sub-set of Saharawis. That indicate that the Saharawis are the ORIGINAL population. It is the same scenario amongst Sardinians, North Africans and mainland Europeans. Sardinians and North African share mtDNA haplotypes UNIQUE to them both and NOT mainland Europeans. However the haplotype of mainland Europeans are also found in Sardinia and North Africa. This is an indication of the direction of migration. ie point of origin. GET IT?! Henn et al autosomal SNP study concluded the same thing. migration from North Africa TOWARDS Europe and NOT the reverse.
Now the interesting thing will be who will break the fold. You know. Call out Achilli and Torroni for their fughked up work they did back in the late 90s- early 2000's. Also interesting is how R-M269-S116 comes into play? That male genetic marker hasn't been found up to the bronze age ie about 1000Bc. That is the perplexing thing.
@Ultimate, are you reading this?
BTW - I have traveled many times to Europe and the Caribbean but never to Africa. I can’t' tell you what a Berber, Sardinian or Chinaman looks like. I am ONLY going by what is disclosed in the research papers that I read.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@TP. Clear your inbox. When you people email. Clear your inbox. Otherwise I won't respond. You know staying on top of things.
That is why I haven't responded Henu.
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I am speaking about the aDNA Nuragic study. Modern Sardinians?. Shrug.....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
What is hypothetical? His DNA is closest to modern Sardinians. That's not hypothetical. So what's the problem???
So you think modern Sardinians are primarily African, ok fine, no "what ifs" necessary
So what's the problem?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: WTF are babbling about. I don't argue the hypothetical what "ifs" . Where is the genetic proof of Otzi skin tone? For a fact based upon what was disclosed he did NOT carry slc45A2. The "white" gene. Lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I am speaking about the aDNA Nuragic study. Modern Sardinians?. Shrug.....
I dod you have any staements to make or just ramble details like you are exposing some conspiracy? You think berbers and Southern European are Africas, ok thats the xyyamn position, cofirm and we'll move on
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know my views on Sardinians and Nuragic. We discussed the haplotypes of Sardinians and North Africand already. More "smoke" for those that don't understand this stuff. Ha! Ha!
They are delaying the inevitable.
you are ranting. If Otzi man is closest in DNA to modern Sardinians then Otzi man is closest Sardinians. So take a look at some modern Sardinians
and after 7000 years they might be brown but not as dark as Otzi man and Otzi man isn't even that dark, look at him and this is after probably some darkening due to the after death state of the skin.
Look, you don't even have to consider the exact skin tone. Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians. So if you want to say modern Sardinians are primarily African fine, the fact remains Otzi man is closest to modern Sardinians
So what's the problem? You are then saying you think modern Sardinians are African. This is the inevitable you were talking about?
update, his outer skin is missing here, I keep forgeting that. It's not mentioned often. Looking at these Otzi photos is irrelevant. Neverthelss their DNA is considered to be most similar to modern Sardinians. and in 7000 years there could be some changes in appearance to some degree perhaps
You think that he's really bantu or Khosia? Ok go into the DNA report and see if you can prove that
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Stone-Age Hunter Had Blue Eyes And Dark, African Skin
quote:
A stone-age hunter’s wisdom tooth has revealed that he had an unusual mix of racial traits – dark, African skin, curly brown hair and blue eyes.
Preliminary DNA analysis of the exceedingly well-preserved 7,000-year-old skeleton, dubbed Brana-1, has overturned ideas about the descent of modern Europeans.
Although the hunter’s closest modern-day relatives live in Sweden and Finland, the genes for his skin colour are African.
Previously, scientists thought that fair skin evolved as people moved to northern latitudes, allowing them to absorb more sunlight for the production of vitamin D.
But Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (IBE) in Barcelona thinks it was the later shift to agriculture that was decisive. (Link to research–in Spanish.)
Pre-farming humans would have gotten most of their vitamin D from eating meat, fish and eggs, while early agriculturalists would have relied more on sunlight.
“It seems possible that latitude is not the key factor in skin depigmentation, but diet,” said Dr Lalueza-Fox, the lead author of a paper on the discovery in Nature. “This guy had to be darker than any modern European, but we don’t know how dark.”
The mutation for blue eyes, a change in the HERC2 gene, is thought to have first appeared around the Black Sea 10,000 years ago and then gradually moved west. Because the gene is recessive, blue-eyed people must have two copies, one from each parent. Remains of the hunter and another human were discovered by cavers in Brana-Arintero, a deep, complex cavern in the Cantabrian Mountains near Leon, Spain, in 2006. The constant cool temperature in the cave, 1,500 metres above sea level, protected the remains from bacteria.
Excavated by Julio Manuel Vidal Encinas, an archaeologist with the Council of Castilla y Leon, they were carbon dated to the Mesolithic era, which in Northwest Europe lasted from 10,000 to 5,000 years ago. Among artifacts found with them were perforated teeth of red deer that decorated their clothing like beads.
Brana-1, the better preserved of the two sets of remains, was 1.7 metres tall and between 30- and 35-years-old when he died. “Before we started this work, I had some ideas of what we were going to find,” Dr Lalueza-Fox said. “Most of those ideas turned out to be completely wrong.”
Among them was his immune system. Previously, scientists thought that farming led to genetic changes to the immune system that helped people deal with infections caught from livestock, including polio and tuberculosis. But Brana-1 already had these changes, possibly because the diseases, and the genetic defences against them, spread faster than the technology.
“It appears that the first line of defense against pathogens was already there,” says Wolfgang Haak, an ancient DNA researcher at the University of Adelaide in Australia. On the other hand, genes for processing lactose, the main sugar in milk, or starch, both of which are more common in agricultural diets, were in “ancestral forms”.
Earlier results from the find, based on an analysis of mitochondrial DNA, showed that Brana-1 shared a common ancestor with the 24,000-year-old remains of a Mal’ta child who lived at Lake Baikal in Siberia. Both are part of the Paleolithic Venus culture, which is identified by small, rounded female figurines. The researchers hope to extract and analyse DNA from Brana-2 next.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Both Speke's Hamitic Hypothesis and Stuhlmann's Caucasian African's are still powerful forces though not quoted from nor alluded to in geneticists' studies and reports.
Has Bekada, an Algerian, been influenced by Amazigh activist renewals of Hamiticism?
Just as in Hamiticism/Caucasian Africa, emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns) as separate and unrelated to the bulk of Africa(ns)
Subliminally, in the background, Bekada proposes E-M215 clade as a back migration
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages.
Of course E-M81 and E-M78 in Bekada's report is E Afr derived although Hamiticism's twin Caucas (ian/oid) E Afr excuses the authors claiming them for Eurasia.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
This is what informs academia and remains in the background behind academicians minds that arrow from the Great Lakes northward to Nile AP NA and Europe is where similar arrows in geneticists' reports trace their pedigree
I was exposed to this in the 70s by Dr. YY benJochannan particularly as in the map above
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Both Speke's Hamitic Hypothesis and Stuhlmann's Caucasian African's as propulgated by later Africanists are still powerful forces though not quoted from nor alluded to in geneticists' studies and reports.
Thing is most of the geneticists reports as evinced in Bekada (2013) do support Hamiticism/Caucasian Africa though never outright publishing it.
Remember Hamiticism is inseparably linked to NE and E Africa as AMH Caucas(ian/oid) and Jeffreys was clear that modern man
quote:is our stock, not Negro ... us, not Negro ... our group, not that of the Negro ... Thus in Africa, from the Old Stone Age to modern times, Modern Man is the tool maker. Nowhere is the Negro, ..., associated with these stone age cultures.
as upheld and promoted by this Africanist:
quote: from Swenet
All the Upper Paleolithic peoples of Kenya were of Caucasoid or proto-Hamitic stock; they are represented by the Gamble's Cave and Naivasha skeletons, as well as the skeleton from Olduvai in northern Tanganyika. They were tall and dolichocephalic, with long face and narrow nose (the 'Elmenteitan type'); the other is brachycephalic, with a shorter face but also with a narrow nose. These two types are represented by Elmenteita A and F1 (Fig. 5 (2 and 3)) from Bromhead's site. The same types persist into the Neolithic, but now a third variation appears in the ultra-dolichocephalic skulls from Willey's kopje (Fig. 5 (4)); these differ from the Elmenteitan type by having a shorter face, a more prominent nose, and a different kind of mandible.
-- Sonia Cole, 1954
quote: Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on 05 November, 2012 11:39 PM : Africans had these so called caucasoid traits before europeans who are the youngest set of peoples.
That is what Cole's, Wiedner's, et al.'s "Caucasian" looked like.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:The human skeletons discovered by Leakey near Elmenteita (Kenya) in the grotto called Gamble's Cave II, and which probably belonged to the same human type as the Olduvai man (northern Tanzania) of the Capsian, have caused much ink to flow. "It is certain that these are not true Negroes, in the usual sense of the word. These are men comparable to the Nilotics in the Great Lakes region, or else comparable to the lighter-skinned populations of those territories. A skeleton recently found at Naivasha (Kenya) obviously belongs to the same type."
From these discoveries, prehistorians, historians, and ethnologists draw conclusions of varying importance concerning the early peopling of Black Africa. In the Olduvai man, Cornevin sees the ancestor of the Nilotic, of the Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer, and Masai. He makes him a Caucasoid. His existence, Cornevin contends, "proves that it is useless to make the East African, improperly called Nilo-Hamitic, come from India or Arabia." Finally, referring to the Naivasha man just mentioned, on the next page he writes that archeological research reveals affinities with the Cro-Magnon race: "tall stature, low, wide face, broad forehead, rectangular sockets, thin nose, little prognathism."
There was no Cro-Magnon man in sub-Saharan Africa. At an interview that Professor Vallois was kind enough to grant me at the Paris Institute of Human Paleontology, this scientist was categorical about this. Only the Boskop man (Transvaal Province, South Africa) was, for a time, considered as a Cro-Magnoid having affinities with the Bushman. But this opinion was later abandoned by its partisans. Cornevin, unfortunately, continues to confuse Grimaldi man -- a "Negroid" with marked prognathism and broad nose -- with Cro-Magnon man, who is not at all prognathous but presents in hypertrophic fashion typical European traits: thin lips, prominent chin, narrow nose. There is reason to reexamine the documents.
The Negro has been there from the beginning; for millennia he was the only one in existence. Nevertheless, on the threshold of the historical epoch, the "scholar" turns his back on him, raises questions about his genesis, and even speculates "objectively" about his tardy appearance ...
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Both Speke's Hamitic Hypothesis and Stuhlmann's Caucasian African's are still powerful forces though not quoted from nor alluded to in geneticists' studies and reports.
Has Bekada, an Algerian, been influenced by Amazigh activist renewals of Hamiticism?
Just as in Hamiticism/Caucasian Africa, emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns) as separate and unrelated to the bulk of Africa(ns)
Subliminally, in the background, Bekada proposes E-M215 clade as a back migration
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%). The unexpected presence of the European-derived Y-chromosome lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb could be the counterparts of the mtDNA H1, H3 and V subgroups, pointing to direct maritime contacts between the European and North African sides of the western Mediterranean.
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages.
Of course E-M81 and E-M78 in Bekada's report is E Afr derived although Hamiticism's twin Caucas (ian/oid) E Afr excuses the authors claiming them for Eurasia.
I keep reading the quote and find it confusing. It may not be saying what you think it says, but I'm still trying to figure it out. If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere There is nowhere in else in the paper where they say E-M81 and E-M78 are Eurasian so maybe that was not the intent in the abstract.
It has to correspond to their other remarks here>
______________________________________
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape Bekada et al 2013
Other lineages, E-M81 [26] and E- M78 [41], seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas.
The most influential haplogroups in the first component separation are: E-M81, E-V65 and R-V88 that pull the North African countries together,
and J-M172, R-M173, R-M17, R-M124 and R-L23 that pull West Asian countries in the opposite direction. In the second component, haplogroups R-L11, R-M529, R-U198, I-M223 and I-M26 are responsible for the spread of the European Mediterranean countries away from Egypt and Arabia, which in turn are pulled by J-M267, B-M60, E-V22 and E-M123.
Contrastingly, for the Y-chromosome North African autochthonous lineages E-V65 and E-M81, Algeria shows the lowest frequencies of all Maghreb countries [Supplementary Table S6]. However, E-M81 frequencies in Algeria [44.2%] are still significantly higher [p<0.0001] than in Egypt [11.9%].
Furthermore, in order to obtain more accurate comparisons, we extended these Y-chromosome fine resolution analyses of haplogroups E1b [M78] and R1b [M343] to published samples of Iberians and Moroccans [46], Saharawi and Mauritanians [47] and Tunisians [15]. This uniparental genetic information has been used to integrate Algeria into the overall North African genetic landscape. ____________________________________________
^^^ regardless we can look at the raw data>
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Bekada et al 2013
Table S6
MOR morroco TUN Tunisa IP Iberian Penninsula ALG Algeria SAM Sahara/Mauritania
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quote:If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere
As if people have never referred to northern Africa as an extension of Eurasia before
quote:the lioness, Posts: 18778
^That post count. Something is funky here. Who are you working for? What is in it for you to allocate so much of your time to a site where most see you as a troll?
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quote:If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere
As if people have never referred to northern Africa as an extension of Eurasia before
enough semantics, look at the data
actually I'm not sure of the proper way to read that chart above. the top excel one> I'm not sure what the letters C,D, E, F etc represent
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If she looked at the actual table instead of that snippet the lioness would know what the column headings mean.
The lioness likes to talk loud while saying nothing.
There is no misprint or ambiguity from Bekada.
There is no way to arrive at her Eurasian percentages w/o including the North African data. The abstract is a resume and cannot willy nilly be divorced from the report. The abstract explains how NA adds up to the Eurasian figure for anyone capable of simple arithmetic.
After all the reason the Lioness posted Bekada in the first place was to flaunt her Eurasian percentages as a support for the absurdity that Berbers are primarily not African.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Asmahan Bekada, et al., 2013 Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Bekada's percentages as stated are only so because North Africa and subSaharan Africa are not one unit Africa vs Eurasia.
North Africa as a part of Eurasia is biased.
When I present Bekada's data North Africa and subSahara Africa will count as African since it takes them both to have a continent Africa.
My correction of the quoted statement: The Eurasian component in Algeria is 60% for mtDNA and 20% for Y-chromosome, without the North African genetic components mtDNA U6 & M1 and paternal E-M81 & E-V65.
Algerians are primarily not African? Not per Bekada's uniparental African raw data. Algerians are 60% African and 40% non-African.
.
And don't you forget it!
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quote:If they thought E-M81 and E-M78 were Eurasian, for that to be the intent, they would then have to keep saying that but in the same paragraph they say it's North African and several times elsewhere
As if people have never referred to northern Africa as an extension of Eurasia before
enough semantics, look at the data
actually I'm not sure of the proper way to read that chart above. the top excel one> I'm not sure what the letters C,D, E, F etc represent
Those letter in the columns accumulate the excel query db.
Btw, you need to try harder, Tukuler has his foot on your neck.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Bekada et al 2013
Table S6
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Those letter in the columns accumulate the excel query db.
Btw, you need to try harder, Tukuler has his foot on your neck. [/QB]
Wrong! they don't accumulate. They are separate populations. The above is a useful chart copy it, above with the proper headings on the top line
populations indicated
A) Haplogroup B) Marker
C) IP Iberian Penninsula D)FRC France E) ISS F) BAL G) SAM Sahara/Mauritania H) MOR Morocco I) ALG Algeria J) TUN Tunisia K) LIB Libya L) EGY Egypt M) CAU Caucus N) TUR Turkey O) LEQ Levant (Jodan Syria Palestine Lebanon Druze) P) IRN Iran ARP) Arabian Penninsula
Again Bekada et al:
" The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. "
Tukular's is disrespectful to women calling me bitch is uncalled for. However he's right on this Bekada quote (or was it Swenet who first pointed it out?) (who but the lioness could admit to error after unprovoked name calling - by defintiion trolling behavior?? )
OFFCIAL LIONESS RETRACTION-specifically about that Bekada quote in the abstract
Algerian Y is not 90%. I don't see the other researchers going as far to catagorize M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian. They should have kept their mouth shut in the abstract because the rest of the paper seems not to reiterate that thought but maybe I need to read it again
^^^ Most other articles call this just North African not Eurasian
However:
J1 21.79 = Eurasian
_______________________
Now on to mtDNA
They said in the paper Mozabites are not as representative of the broader Algerian popualtion as in the city Oran, NW
H/HV 30.83
HV0/HV0/V 7.50
M1 7.08 (Coudray in the below chart calls M1 North African)
_______________________________
This task on both the Y DNA and mtDNA in the Bekada at top includes a lot more haplogroups with smaller frequencies that add up and trying to figure out what to call African and what to call Eurasian
For reference, see bottom of this chart
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
Coudray
^^^ for the sake of argument one could apply Eurasian vs. African indication as used here to the Bekada and then crunch the numbers, you could say African = NA+SSA
But also realize SSA contribution might be regarded as recent as some, not all, of the Eurasian contibution
Here in the Coudray he's got the Mozabites 54% Eurasian
I can't take Tukular's word for it there has to be some listing and adding.
In looking at this stuff, the Algerians are looking sort of half and half-ish
Who really knows what Hgs are African an which are not and how it's really determined
Something interesting I notice about Hap U is that above Coudray calls U Eurasian but U6 North African they list Mozabites about 13% U(not U6 U) and 28% U6
Bekada:
U6 27.06 U3b1a 10.79
II had always assumed that when Coudray listed "U" and not specifying the marker it was U6. Bekada lists U3
mtDNA haplogroup U3 is present throughout Europe and Western Asia but is found at the highest frequencies in countries surrounding the Black Sea, especially in Bulgaria and the Caucusas. U3 is very rare in Western Europe (probably less than 0.5%) but is found at increasingly high levels to the east, especially in the Danube River basin and along the southeastern Mediterranean Sea. U3 is also found at very high frequencies among some Roma populations and in some parts of the Near East (e.g. Jordan and Syria). U3 appears to be a fairly ancient haplogroup (probably at least 35,000 to 45,000 years old)
However Achilli/ Torroni in the below Saami/berber study did list beber U5, notably Siwa
Am J Hum Genet. 2005 May;76(5):883-6. Epub 2005 Mar 24
_________________________
wiki
Haplogroup U
Haplogroup U descends from a woman in the Haplogroup R (mtDNA) branch of the phylogenetic tree, who lived around 55,000 years ago.
Haplogroup U is found in 15% of Indian caste and 8% of Indian tribal populations. U is found in approximately 11% of native Europeans and is held as the oldest maternal haplogroup found in that region. U6 is thought to have entered North Africa around 30,000 years ago from the Near-East. In spite of the highest diversity of Iberian U6, Maca-Meyer argues for an Near East origin of this clade based on the highest diversity of subclade U6a in that region,[27] where it would have arrived from West Asia. She estimates the age of U6 between 25,000 and 66,000 years BP. However U6 has its highest frequencies in North Africa and seems to be a specific haplogroup of that region.
Achilli/ Torroni
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
^^^ U5
U6 is thought to have entered North Africa around 30,000 years ago from the Near-East. In spite of the highest diversity of Iberian U6, Maca-Meyer argues for an Near East origin of this clade based on the highest diversity of subclade U6a in that region,[27] where it would have arrived from West Asia. She estimates the age of U6 between 25,000 and 66,000 years BP.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Pointless pic spam as if all Mzabi nuances are captured
All looks are not alike Genes tell all in spite
Berbers are primarily not African? Yeah, sure, only in your dreams.
BTW the Lioness, Being a bitch's got nothing to do with being a female (not sure u r). It's about the object's attitude and the name callers "respect" 4 u (zilch) nor is it a Black thang
1970's Elton John - "the bitch is back" David Bowie - "I'm a rock n rollin bitch for you"
2010's innumerable Rap a/o Hip Hoppers
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Bekada et al 2013 Table S6
The above is a useful chart copy it, above with the proper headings on the top line
Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool.
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posted
Just downloaded and skimmed through Kefi's paper. This is live data. No? aDNA of Taforalt Morocco 10000bc have them at mtDNA H. But earliest known aDNA of H in Iberia is 3000bc. Seems like H is yet again older in Africa. Yet Iberia is, what, 10miles off of Morocco? Get the picture?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes, Frigi 2010 officially opened the door to academia questioning H1 & H3 possible African origins.
Frigi however did assert L3*, Kefi found but both ignored and denied as foundational to the Maurusian, was right there from its very start.
quote: The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago.
posted
Will check out the link on Frigi. But you do know that the geneticists are moving to North West Africa as the geographic inception of AMH? Which conflicts with the anthropological evidence. This is because of the discovery of A1c? iirc in the Sahel region and A00 in Afram and west Africa. Tishkoff speculated in the Angola region, pigmentation data by Norton speculated also Sahel region.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: U6 is thought to have entered North Africa around 30,000 years ago from the Near-East. In spite of the highest diversity of Iberian U6, Maca-Meyer argues for an Near East origin of this clade based on the highest diversity of subclade U6a in that region,[27] where it would have arrived from West Asia. She estimates the age of U6 between 25,000 and 66,000 years BP.
So when are you going to show us the Paleolithic and Epipaleolithic Eurasian industry, distribution and remains in Africa?
quote: Regular Middle Paleolithic inventories as well as Middle Paleolithic inventories of Aterian type have a long chronology in Morocco going back to MIS 6 and are interstratified in some sites. Their potential for detecting chrono-cultural patterns is low. The transition from the Middle to Upper Paleolithic, here termed Early Upper Paleolithic—at between 30 to 20 ka—remains a most enigmatic era. Scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental reconsidering of human presence. By integrating environmental data in the reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Paleolithic deposits, possibly indicative of a very low presence of humans in Morocco. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly with the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna, and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas again shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Paleolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipaleolithic occupation. Therefore, the late glacial cultural sequence of Morocco is a good test case for analyzing the interrelationship of culture and climate change.
--Late Pleistocene Human Occupation of Northwest Africa: A Crosscheck of Chronology and Climate Change in Morocco Jörg Linstädter, Prehistoric Archaeology, Cologne University, GERMANY Josef Eiwanger, KAAK, German Archaeological Institute, GERMANY Abdessalam Mikdad, INSAP, MOROCCO Gerd-Christian Weniger, Neanderthal Museum, GERMANY
quote: North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia.
--On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just downloaded and skimmed through Kefi's paper. This is live data. No? aDNA of Taforalt Morocco 10000bc have them at mtDNA H. But earliest known aDNA of H in Iberia is 3000bc. Seems like H is yet again older in Africa. Yet Iberia is, what, 10miles off of Morocco? Get the picture?
Call it irony,
quote:However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al.
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
quote:This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
Prehistoric Iberia 2000, pp 125-162
Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool. [/QB]
I did download it you fucking piece of shit scumbag. I made a scanned version, web host version which makes it easier for people to upload onto the site. **** your mother and your whole family
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So when are you going to show us the Paleolithic and Epipaleolithic Eurasian industry, distribution and remains in Africa?
I'll do it now
Paleolithic Eurasians with cold adapted limb ratio and Eurasian haplogroups
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
1- Paleolithic Eurasians (Magdalenian Europe/Azilian Pyrenees) __ physical remains (crania and skeletons) are a match for 2- North Africa as in Maurusian Taforalt.
You still haven't done it yet. You're not going to try to do it now. You can't ever do it, no way, no how, never. Why? You lack the skills to compile such a table.
Your grade, an F minus. Fail, the Lioness, a big fail for you.
Yet you keep on repeating your non-evidence as if it speaks volumes though you need to cease and retreat to some place of retraction for those who blurt out without at first thinking it out.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool.
I did download it you fucking piece of shit scumbag. I made a scanned version, web host version which makes it easier for people to upload onto the site. **** your mother and your whole family
U a 1 horney bitch in heat aintcha
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] If you post those pics again I'll puke. Pics don't prove **** w/o authoritative text. I mean like where's the raw data and statistics, a big fail for you.
Troll keeps asking to see it over and over again
and again here's an authoritative chart for your thick dumb ass
^^^^ This is Trenton Holliday and it's supported by numerical data
This shows Iberomaurusian Afalou as clustering with Alaskans
That means cold adapted limb ratios for you buffoons. And the Taforalt specimens have even lower limb ratios than afalou Iberomaurusian.
This is NON -AFRICAN
that fits the thread theme.
You quibble desperately over the L in one sample.
That doesn't change the fact that Taforalt had high percentages of H, U ( not U6) JT and V.
For the buffoons this also indicates Eurasian mtDNA in North Africa 10-12000 years ago, right ???
You cant deal with facts, if You include some L it doesn't matter.
nether of you have been able to refute this.
Troll isn't even aware that Iberomaurusian and Capsians, Gobero have different morphologies.
And looking at the tawny Khosians (the ones with less bantu admixture) at silar distance from the equator it would be reasonble to expect Maghrebians to be not so dark.
Troll Patrol puts up endless pictures of children in Africa, nobody says anything.
I put up pictures of Mozabites, some even more African looking than Doc Scientia had put up.
And maybe the pictures I put up do represent primarily African somewhere past 50%.
So you had what you wanted a few years ago. Mozabotes primarily African. So take that and stick it.
And then go back and complain about what Diop said about berbers
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be such a clueless dope Just download the table fool.
I did download it you fucking piece of shit scumbag. I made a scanned version, web host version which makes it easier for people to upload onto the site. **** your mother and your whole family [/QB]
I guess this is the real lioness. evil euro all over again.
Takruri has no right to call you a bitch Lioness but you take the bait. If your right, post the studies critque it, Tell them what is stated in it and there would be no need to bring peoples families in it. Gotta realize mockery shines a light more on the mocker then the mocked.
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^^^ If these repersent archaic North Africans you had discussed (perhaps the Capsians were similar) than dark skin and afro hair are not indigenous traits of the Mahgreb
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You dumbass. Don't you even know what an A:B comparison is? Obviously not.
Again you're talking loud and saying nothing.
Ask you for a bed, you bring a reclining beach chair and act like its the same damn thing.
You don't get it that haplogroups are not physical remains nor does haplogroup necessarily indicate phenotype. You also overlook improbabilities brought up by hg coalescence making some Kefi assignments doubtful.
You can not even do the math to see Kefi's slide frequencies can't add up to 100% w/o the L3/M/N. You don't have the skill to check Kefi's motifs to see that at least 6 of them can be various L clades. So go on and make pretend Taf VIII, Kefi's L3/M/N, cranium is not African but evidence of European phenotype.
You have absolutely no ability to analyse what you read, critique it for faults, or arrive at your own independent conclusions or even synthesis.
You just squawk, like a parrot, the same bullshit over and over and over again and again and again.
We know Iberia and Morocco comprises Alboran and was easy to travel back and forth vs littoral NA and the rest of Africa being essentially isolated during the LGAM. What you fail to factor in is the origin of the peopling of the Maghreb before the the ice and aridity kicked in.
And then you conjure "the true Negro" to spook two modern Maghrebi women out of their African phenotypes even after my 3 post expose on the bankruptness of a dark white Caucasian Hamite north and east Africa in the pre-Holocene.
Aintcha got no shame?
The Maghreb has had its own regional variety of African just as other areas in Africa have theirs.
The Maghreb African variant results from relative isolation over the LGAM followed by confluence with other Africans with the advent of the Holocene and apparently always included some percent of north and later east Mediterraneans (and even Arabian Peninsula folk) all increasing in number until producing the situation we have today; a coastal North Africa that is heavily non-African in biology.
Today's reality cannot be extrapolated into the remote prehistoric past.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] If you post those pics again I'll puke. Pics don't prove **** w/o authoritative text. I mean like where's the raw data and statistics, a big fail for you.
Troll keeps asking to see it over and over again
and again here's an authoritative chart for your thick dumb ass
^^^^ This is Trenton Holliday and it's supported by numerical data
This shows Iberomaurusian Afalou as clustering with Alaskans
That means cold adapted limb ratios for you buffoons. And the Taforalt specimens have even lower limb ratios than afalou Iberomaurusian.
This is NON -AFRICAN
that fits the thread theme.
You quibble desperately over the L in one sample.
That doesn't change the fact that Taforalt had high percentages of H, U ( not U6) JT and V.
For the buffoons this also indicates Eurasian mtDNA in North Africa 10-12000 years ago, right ???
You cant deal with facts, if You include some L it doesn't matter.
nether of you have been able to refute this.
Troll isn't even aware that Iberomaurusian and Capsians, Gobero have different morphologies.
And looking at the tawny Khosians (the ones with less bantu admixture) at silar distance from the equator it would be reasonble to expect Maghrebians to be not so dark.
Troll Patrol puts up endless pictures of children in Africa, nobody says anything.
I put up pictures of Mozabites, some even more African looking than Doc Scientia had put up.
And maybe the pictures I put up do represent primarily African somewhere past 50%.
So you had what you wanted a few years ago. Mozabotes primarily African. So take that and stick it.
And then go back and complain about what Diop said about berbers
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Bitch is as bitch does, bitching. Now ain't that a bitch!
Let's get this straight I have the right to do whatever I want to. Keep out of what's no concern to you. Where were you all the times the bitch insulted me unprovoked or wiped her feet on me after I accorded it the same deference as respectful posters?
Mind your own beeswax, Jack.
quote:Originally posted by KING: Takruri has no right to call you a bitch Lioness but you take the bait.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
A little basic math lesson.
Kefi's table has 23 entries.
The three Taf V entries were reduced to one, leaving a base of 21 entries.
Kefi has: * local North African U6 at 9.5% (2/21) * presumed foreign H U JT V at 90.5% (but 18/21 = 85.7%) * presumed "sub-Sudanese" L3/M/N at 0% (but 1/21 = 4.8%)
Note that 9.5 + 85.7 = 95.2 not 100
To arrive at 90.5% for H U JT V Kefi had to add the sub-Sudanese 4.8% to the foreign 85.7%. Kefi, with a stroke of the pen and hoping no one would notice, added sub-Sudanese L3/M/N to the Eurasiatic component.
Kefi has been dishonest and biased against non-local Africans in her aDNA report on Taforalt as her fudging of the stats clearly shows. In her drive to disallow what she sees as sub-Sudanese Maurusian founders Kefi failed to announce possible L clades in her 2005 report though in 2009 she admits Sudani (or Sudani-like "genes") in Holocene Maghreb.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: So when are you going to show us the Paleolithic and Epipaleolithic Eurasian industry, distribution and remains in Africa?
I'll do it now
Paleolithic Eurasians with cold adapted limb ratio and Eurasian haplogroups
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Great just great,
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
quote:
Summary. — Recent discoveries in Western Sahara evidence the presence of Cromagnoid settlement in this region during the Early Holocene. These new data throw new light on the problem of morphological and geographical evolution of Mechta-Afalou- Taforalt men. The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara) raise the question of their origins : migration from Maghreb at the beginning of the Holocene during a wet climatic phase or local evolution from an aterian ancestor common to maghrebian and saharan Cromagnoids ?... The numerous climatic changes occur ing in this part of Sahara during the last 30 kyrs could be an efficient evolutive promotor and can explain the morphological and cultural differences observed between the saharan and maghrebian series. However, what will happen latter to african Cromagnoids in the Maghreb and especially in the Sahara is still an open question.
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
^^^ Hard to tell what is going on with the upper skeleton. The profile of the skull is different from the lower skeleton and the femur appears much shorter than the lower skeleton but It's hard to tell because it may be damaged making it appear different-not sure
At 80 km at the north-eastward of Guelmim (toward Tata), the protohistorical site of Adrar Zerzem is located in the Taghjirjt commune.
The dating of this site goes back to
about 2,500 years before our era.
About 37 death monuments of old amazigh inhabitants and other monuments confirms the human settling in the area. These discoveries will contribute to the enrichment of historic research concerning this important period of Morocco history which has occurred before the discovery of the Moroccan coasts by Phoenician sailors. To be seen on the elevations of Tahghjijt, the old citadel of DAR ES SOULTAN.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco A. Bouzouggar, R. N. E. Barton, S. Blockley, C. Bronk-Ramsey, S. N. Collcutt, R. Gale, T. F. G. Higham, L. T. Humphrey, S. Parfitt, E. Turner,
Abstract Chronological evidence for the Iberomaurusian is currently very limited and there are problems with some of the published radiocarbon dates. In this paper we present new AMS dating results from well-stratified cave sequences at Ghar Cahal, Kehf el Hammar and Taforalt in northern and eastern Morocco. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–11,000 bp (radiocarbon determinations presented in this paper are expressed as ka bp or bp, whilst approximate calendar ages are expressed as Cal bp) with a marked intensification of cave use soon after ca. 13,000 bp. Using calibrated AMS ages in comparison to sea surface temperature evidence from the Alboran Sea core MD95-2043 and more generally to Greenland ice δ18O core records, we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
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^^^ Hard to tell what is going on with the upper skeleton. The profile of the skull is different from the lower skeleton and the femur appears much shorter than the lower skeleton but It's hard to tell because it may be damaged making it appear different-not sure
At 80 km at the north-eastward of Guelmim (toward Tata), the protohistorical site of Adrar Zerzem is located in the Taghjirjt commune.
The dating of this site goes back to
about 2,500 years before our era.
About 37 death monuments of old amazigh inhabitants and other monuments confirms the human settling in the area. These discoveries will contribute to the enrichment of historic research concerning this important period of Morocco history which has occurred before the discovery of the Moroccan coasts by Phoenician sailors. To be seen on the elevations of Tahghjijt, the old citadel of DAR ES SOULTAN.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco A. Bouzouggar, R. N. E. Barton, S. Blockley, C. Bronk-Ramsey, S. N. Collcutt, R. Gale, T. F. G. Higham, L. T. Humphrey, S. Parfitt, E. Turner,
Abstract Chronological evidence for the Iberomaurusian is currently very limited and there are problems with some of the published radiocarbon dates. In this paper we present new AMS dating results from well-stratified cave sequences at Ghar Cahal, Kehf el Hammar and Taforalt in northern and eastern Morocco. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–11,000 bp (radiocarbon determinations presented in this paper are expressed as ka bp or bp, whilst approximate calendar ages are expressed as Cal bp) with a marked intensification of cave use soon after ca. 13,000 bp. Using calibrated AMS ages in comparison to sea surface temperature evidence from the Alboran Sea core MD95-2043 and more generally to Greenland ice δ18O core records, we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
Nobody is ignoring the existence.
You complain about the first image I've posted, how about the image on the Hattab 2 Cave?
The fossils I've posted are from Adrar Zerzem and date back to the Holocene-Mesolithic period. Not some recent Neolithic invasion, as you tend to claim.
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology. And Tukuler showed you the genetic resolutions.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
See, what you've posted, I wrote this a few pages back on climatological impact.
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
A few more profiles,
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ and where are these from and what time period?
I have told you this repeatedly, Holocene-Mesolithic timeframe.
And the whole puzzle is falling in it's right place. Where collected the pieces and put them in the right place. It's almost done!
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara.
The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
You complain about the first image I've posted, how about the image on the Hattab 2 Cave?
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology. And Tukuler showed you the genetic resolutions.
My complaint is that you marked remaiins from Adrar Zerzem from 2500 years ago as Taforalt Cromagnids.
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