quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs.
^^^ try to figure out what he's agreeing on.
The statement " Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted" is simply wrong as the chart indicates
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians.
^^^ here he states Ibero-Maurusians were less tropcially adapted than Mesolithic Europeans. Doesn't that add to my argument? They are clustering with Alaskans.
--and which Mesolithic Europeans, Scandinavians or Iberians or...etc?
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.
yes lioness, this later group of the Maghreb had a more gracile body plan than did the Iberomaurusian.
So what you list as a debunk is you playing yourself The paleolithic settelements in North Africa have differnt roots
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have,
I never posted the caption to this, but you have? hilarious!
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
E-M215 >E-M35 >E-M28>E-M183 >E-M81
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have,
I never posted the caption to this, but you have? hilarious!
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
I don't know you've posted it over 100 times I know you're not posting it now without the full caption
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs.
^^^ try to figure out what he's agreeing on.
The statement " Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted" is simply wrong as the chart indicates
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians.
^^^ here he states Ibero-Maurusians were less tropcially adapted than Mesolithic Europeans. Doesn't that add to my argument? They are clustering with Alaskans.
--and which Mesolithic Europeans, Scandinavians or Iberians or...etc?
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.
yes lioness, this later group of the Maghreb had a more gracile body plan than did the Iberomaurusian.
So what you list as a debunk is you playing yourself The paleolithic settelements in North Africa have differnt roots
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Also Explorer wasn't it you not long ago who when asked about where do all these tawny skinned North Africans come from you would say white women slaves of tha Barbary? -and Troll Patrol adding expulsion of the Moriscos ?
It if that is the case then what are the foreign haplogroups of berbers?
With all the screen distortion and other noise, this escaped my attention.
First, I'd like to point out that your question is based on a fiction. This then cancels out your follow up question.
I've never made the claim that "all tawny skinned North Africans come from white slaves of the barbary". It's your fabrication.
I did however note, that a good amount of what is considered "foreign" ancestry, in the maternal gene pool, can likely be attributable to a slavery institution that largely favored females. And before you go bungling that up too, I am not saying that "all" the maternal gene pool is attributable to slavery.
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
Next time make sure you are asking a question of me that is rooted on something I've actually said.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Notice how he never posts the caption to this . I have,
I never posted the caption to this, but you have? hilarious!
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
I don't know you've posted it over 100 times I know you're not posting it now without the full caption
I have posted this with the full caption, but your stupidity mandates for people to narrow it down to the final subject. Therefore is only cite the most relevant, to highlight. And when this happens you start to play your usual distraction and derailing games. Because it debunks you upside down and all around!
Maghreb specimen clusters with Gobero specimen, dumbass! Multiple sources from multiple disciplines have been cited, you dumbass!
quote:
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together,
[...]
The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
stop making excuses it's not proper to post that without the caption that explalins the terms and makes other remarks about outliers
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop making excuses it's not proper to post that without the caption that explalins the terms and makes other remarks about outliers
I have explained the details. But your stupidity is blocked from all rational thinking.
It is you who is making the excuses and can't backup anthropological and archeological evidence.
I have posted evidence from multiple disciplines.
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb how did that happen ?>
a question you can't answer
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb how did that happen ?>
a question you can't answer
This is hilarious....
quote: During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A question you can't answer:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic? Where where where...? Where is the distribution?
quote:The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery...
The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions...
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
--Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) (1975)
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic , Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic? Where where where...?
at the Iberomaurusian sites.
The chart on E etc in modern berbers does not apply to the Y DNA of the Iberomaurusians.
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 year old human remains in the Maghreb
how did that happen ?
this is hilarious
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic , Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic? Where where where...?
at the Iberomaurusian sites.
The chart on E etc in modern berbers does not apply to the Y DNA of the Iberomaurusians.
quote:Originally posted by the Explorer
While your follow up question was based on a false premise, I'll offer a reply nonetheless: The signature of the above, would most likely find expression in those maternal haplogroup that appear to be a subset of the western European distribution (e.g. elements of H and V clades).
yes, wake up Troll Patrol H and V clades 12,000 year old human remains in the Maghreb
how did that happen ?
this is hilarious
The chart of E does apply on the distribution of the Iberomaurusians. As I have stated before, E-M81 is likely a mutation due to climate change.
quote: During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A question you can't answer:
Where are the fossils, where are the remains of Eurasian females during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Neolithic or Mesolithic in Africa? Where where where...? Where is the distribution?
The Iberomaurusians cluster with indigenous people from the South! Not with foreign people from Eurasia. If so, the multiple studies on archeology and anthropology would have stated this, clearly. While in fact the opposite is the case, they state a indigenous process of distribution. As I have shown by multiple disciplines vs your opinion.
By the way:
quote:The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A-M28> E-M215 >E-M35 > E-V257 >E-M81
quote: However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al.
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
What is your interpretation of that information?
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
What is your interpretation of that information? [/QB]
The chart doesn't list any M269 in Afro-Iranians (xyyman games)
The 16.7 refers to M198
and, I'm not sure why but that same figure 16.7 for L23.
It doesn't mean that "16% of the Black Iranians carry" these haplogoups and therefore 84% don't.
It's an average it means of all Afro Iranians, on average they have 16.7% frequency of these hgs. It's not the same thing. A larger percentage of Afro Iranians carry these haplogoups than 16.7%, They carry this ancestry at various frequencies higher and lower than 16.7%. When they are averaged together it's 16.7%
These lineages in Afro Iranians seems unremarkable because the various other Iranian groups have these hgs as well, Assyrians at the high end of L23 at 23.1 and Bandari at the high point of M198 at 21.4
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
BTW - The sibling clade is R1a1a. You know the old R1a (East European?).
Fascinating!!!
Am I reading this right, Black Iranians carry BOTH branches of the sub-clades of R1. Anyone?!
Odd that both clades have the same frequency. Peer reviewed?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
I already have shown the distribution. That chart shows the "Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree". Hence the name of the study: "Binary Polymorphisms".
We have the remains clustering with indigenous people from the South, we have ornaments assemblages from East Africa showing a indigenous distribution, we have the language distribution from the eastSouth, we have climate change. What do you have, your own opinion?
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
A-M28> E-M215 >E-M35 > E-V257 >E-M81
quote: However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81,
[...]
--Beniamino Trombetta et al.
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
Now, it's time for you to show the fossils/ remains of Eurasians females in Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa. Others and I are still eagerly waiting, as has been for the last 4 years, for you post your (superficial) evidence.
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
I already have shown the distribution. That chart shows the "Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree". Hence the name of the study: "Binary Polymorphisms".
You have shown nothing. You asked me for a skeleton of Iberomaurusians I showed you one.
They are a specific unique group and have noted morphological differences to Capsians as noted by archaeologists. They lived in the Maghreb for about 10,000 years.
I asked you for YDNA of this specific group of skeletons called Iberomaurusian in as specific place in Morroco.
You showed none therefore you don't know what the paternal haplogroups of Iberomaurusians is , period. end of story
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
What does the data mean?! That is a very good question. I will take a stab at it. Anyone can correct me. These things are really simple really once you look at it objectively. In the “preamble” the author states that there are Black Iranians ie Persian(their geopgraphic location is in the old Persian Empire region). However he “hypothesize” they were decendants of Zanzibar slaves. Fair enough. Remember Underhill et al did a study and saw evidence of a mixture of ancient and current African SSA lineage spreading into Arabia onto Iran. He, Underhill then concluded some of the samples were NOT slaves.
Anyways. There are FACTS then there is the HYPOTHESIS. ie explaining the facts.
Here are the facts based on the populations sampled.
1. There are black Iranians. Hence the term Afro-Iranians. Don’t be fooled by what is seen on TV. Iran is within the UV “black skin pigmentation belt”. 2. These Black Iranians occupy a region in South West Iran which is the location of the old Persiian Empire. 3. These Black Iranians, fascinatingly carry, in addition to M2, but also “West European R1b L23” AND “East European R1a – M198”. Both markers at about 16%. I have never seen this before! Ever! In any population. And at such high frequency. Anyone? 4. The break down is: R1b – L23 16.7%, R1a – M198 16%, M2 25%, L2 8%, J2 16%, E1b 8.3% Q 8%. Total ~99%. So the math add up. 5. If they are Zanzibar slaves it should be relatively easy to tell…right?. Compare the genetic makeup between Zanzibar and the Black Iranians. But no one has done that.
Now the hypothesis……….based upon the facts……..
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys do know Lioness(s) is playing games.
Here is something I came across on Black Iranians. What is really suprising is that 16% of the Black Iranians carry European M-269 - L23. And another 16% carry the sibling clade. That blew me away. This is the first time I have seen this.
What is your interpretation of that information?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
You may be right Dr Winters but what is puzzling is L23 in Western Europe and M198 in Eastern Europe, but here is an "African" group in Persia carry both. This implies a Black Persian origin ...no?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] What does the data mean?! That is a very good question. I will take a stab at it. Anyone can correct me. These things are really simple really once you look at it objectively. In the “preamble” the author states that there are Black Iranians ie Persian(their geopgraphic location is in the old Persian Empire region). However he “hypothesize” they were decendants of Zanzibar slaves. Fair enough. Remember Underhill et al did a study and saw evidence of a mixture of ancient and current African SSA lineage spreading into Arabia onto Iran. He, Underhill then concluded some of the samples were NOT slaves.
they dont have to be slaves, is some were traders, they are still from East Africa as they themsleves will attest, that's why they have the higher E frequencies
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
@Lioness. Hey! You need to answer that question Tukuler asked you. We are waiting.
I attest to be Polish, wink!. Wink! Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] What does the data mean?! That is a very good question. I will take a stab at it. Anyone can correct me. These things are really simple really once you look at it objectively. In the “preamble” the author states that there are Black Iranians ie Persian(their geopgraphic location is in the old Persian Empire region). However he “hypothesize” they were decendants of Zanzibar slaves. Fair enough. Remember Underhill et al did a study and saw evidence of a mixture of ancient and current African SSA lineage spreading into Arabia onto Iran. He, Underhill then concluded some of the samples were NOT slaves.
they dont have to be slaves, is some were traders, they are still from East Africa as they themsleves will attest, that's why they have the higher E frequencies
Can you provide us clear proof that ALL blacks in Persia claim to be either 1. Slaves or 2. Traders? 3. Why is it Herodotus said that the Persian army was 50% ethiop, which means these blacks have been there all along. He also makes mention of a associate who sailed to India and noted that the people in Southern Iran were all black. Can you give us clear, irrefutable evidence to back up your claim? You saying "they claim to be from such and such" isn't proof, thats just your empty words. We need peer reviewed sources.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You may be right Dr Winters but what is puzzling is L23 in Western Europe and M198 in Eastern Europe, but here is an "African" group in Persia carry both. This implies a Black Persian origin ...no?
Correct. Many researchers use various names for the same haplogroup to cause confusion. If you don't go back and read the literature or the researcher does not update his writing you would fail to see the continuity between haplogroups carried by various groups.
Sometimes researchers will lie. For example, Kivisild and his Hindutva friends maintain that M1 does not exist in In dia when they know otherwise.
I will make a prediction. I predict that very soon some researcher will be brave enough to admit that Sub-Saharan Africans carry R1a.
posted
I am not versed on Herodotus but if I am to make a logical guest based upon scientific data and ignoring what I see on TV or reading, I would say the indigenous people of old Persian lands are suppose to be black. Also reading up on the climate , 120F and hot and humid. Yeah. Sounds like Lagos to me. The genetics says they are not slaves. Are there SSA mtDNA? If not who were the SSA male fughking? Were the Zanj slaves banging the locals?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hanihara 1997 does show that people of the Iran Bronze Age cluster with sub-Saharan Africans in cranial analysis. The influx or movement of Asiatic types over time into the area could have changed or mixed the population composition.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE] I will make a prediction. I predict that very soon some researcher will be brave enough to admit that Sub-Saharan Africans carry R1a.
.
Carrying an uniparental haplogroup means nothing in this context. Some European population have African haplogroups too (due to contact and admixture with Africans). It certainly doesn't mean it originated in Africa. A question that is meaningless anyway. All human populations admixed with each others to various degrees. European populations have a much greater percentage and diversity of R and F-descendant haplogroups than Africans.
Any Y-DNA R haplogroup (R1a, R1b, etc) are descendant of the F-M89 haplogroup, representive of the non-African population who left Africa during the main OOA migration (Out of Africa).
It's ridiculous to fight about the origin of those haplogroup because F descendant haplogroups are usually very rare in African populations. They are also the products of contacts and admixture with non-African populations.
Since uniparental Y-DNA and mt-DNA hg only give one line of descent and people descend from multiple lines of descent, some people may possess a non-African haplogroup like R and still be 90% African for example (using the full genome or automomal DNA). Same principle of course for other populations and African uniparental haplogroups (orange in the graph).
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged |
posted
Agreed the discovery of R1a in Africa will do it
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You may be right Dr Winters but what is puzzling is L23 in Western Europe and M198 in Eastern Europe, but here is an "African" group in Persia carry both. This implies a Black Persian origin ...no?
Correct. Many researchers use various names for the same haplogroup to cause confusion. If you don't go back and read the literature or the researcher does not update his writing you would fail to see the continuity between haplogroups carried by various groups.
Sometimes researchers will lie. For example, Kivisild and his Hindutva friends maintain that M1 does not exist in In dia when they know otherwise.
I will make a prediction. I predict that very soon some researcher will be brave enough to admit that Sub-Saharan Africans carry R1a.
.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sounds like Ultimate is in Cruciani's camp with R-V88?
@Sage. I am shooting the breeze while you post that new data on Berbers.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
@ ultimate. Are the Berbers indigenous or not? And why.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sounds like Ultimate is in Cruciani's camp with R-V88?
There is no camp. This is basic genetic knowledge.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ ultimate. Are the Berbers indigenous or not? And why.
This is the wrong question to ask since Berbers have mixed origin. What is important for you, and it is true, is that Berbers and North Africans, including Arabs and people of European origin, have "ownership of the continent" (to use your words) as any citizen of African countries.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage. I am shooting the breeze while you post that new data on Berbers.
Shoot on brother.
Meanwhile a little Maurusian geography and climate so we can place Maurusia in context. Note that the Maurusian is limited to a strip of land between the Atlas and the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
20k 14C years ago Africans of littoral Maghreb became shielded from the west, central, and southern Africans by the Last Glacial Arid Maximum climate. Note that the tiny watermelon colored strip labeled Mediterranean scrub at the very tippy top on this map is the Maurusian industry's precise location.
This and following climate and geography maps show when and where spread and migration was facile or restrictive for gene flow in a respective era of time.
1000 miles of desert buffered the Maghreb proper from all the rest of Africa in the Last Glacial Arid Maximum.
Some scholars posit Libya and Egypt had cultural industries similar in aspect to the Maurusian, iirc.
Communication to or from Libya and Egypt via the Mediterranean coast wasn't easy. Likewise for the Atlantic coast south all the way to Guinea. The Maghreb had a tiny strip of scrubland at the very north with semi-desert conditions from there to the Atlas having extreme desert at its southern foot.
Ocean heights were lower in the LGAM so Iberia was very easy to get to (maybe Pantelleria on to Sicily too) when compared to south or eastward flow. No one had to wait for glaciers to melt to go back and forth across the straits of Gibraltar thus no end of LGM refugium exit to the Maghreb which was readily accessible throughout the entire LGM.
Any African phenotypes, cultures, and genes in LGAM Maghreb were there since before 20k including Kefi's overlooked L mtDNA clades.
A caveat on Kefi is that the remains she assessed were from nearer the end of the Maurusian, circa 11-12k.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Herodotus said that the Persian army was 50% ethiop, which means these blacks have been there all along.
Where is the quote? There is no such quote I have seen where Hedodotus says the Persian army was 50 % Ethiopian. - unless it was about the invasion of Egypt, it could be possible. To make such a claim you need to be scholarly and back it with a quote. Also keep in mind Herodotus is considered not always accurate. Regardless, the Persian army was a very diverse. The Persians demanded troops from all of their conquered lands. The army was comprised of Persians, Indians, Elamites, Medes, Bactrians, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Arabians, and Phrygians. The core of the army was made up of Persians and Medes, but the vast majority of the army were light skirmishers from central Asia and the eastern Mediterranean.
Here is a quote from Herodotus:
[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians - for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya (here he is talking about ALL of Africa) are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.
________________________________
So are you including these dark skinned straight haired folk not of Africa, yet whom herodotus calls "Eastern Ethiopians?
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sounds like he is saying Maghrebs, East Africans and Indians are all black. Hair texture may be different. Anyone has the exact pure translation. Lioness has a bad habit....lying. He can't help himself.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
C'mon Xyyman, don't be a fish caught on the bait and switch hook.
@ the Lioness Stop it Stop it now Stop trying to divert to whatever Stop trying to distract away from Berbers just because you're getting your ass handed to you
There's a current thread on Eastern Aethiopians here.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sounds like he is saying Maghrebs, East Africans and Indians are all black. Hair texture may be different. Any has the exact pure translation. Lioness has a bad habit....lying.
quote me where I lied asshole
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't be a fish. Don't take the bait. Take it to the proper thread or make a new thread. Please do not disrupt my thread with completely off-topic stuff thank you
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: C'mon Xyyman, don't be a fish caught on the bait and switch hook.
@ the Lioness Stop it Stop it now Stop trying to divert to whatever Stop trying to distract away from Berbers just because you're getting your ass handed to you
There's a current thread on Eastern Aethiopians here.
jackass, this thread was about berbers until xyyman made a dumb post about Afro Iranians
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lioness is not smart enough to play me. I am following his lead on the morphology of the Magrebians. The Afro-Iranian comment was just passing time. So my question still stands. How does Herodotus discribe the Magrebians. Original translation.
Assuming Magrebians, Libyans and Berbers are equivalent.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sounds like he is saying Maghrebs, East Africans and Indians are all black. Hair texture may be different. Anyone has the exact pure translation. Lioness has a bad habit....lying. He can't help himself.
quote me where I lied
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Lioness is not smart enough to play me. I am following his lead on the morphology of the Magrebians. The Afro-Iranian comment was just passing time. So my question still stands. How does Herodotus discribe the Magrebians. Original translation.
Assuming Magrebians, Libyans and Berbers are equivalent.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
hilarious!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
This is hilarious.... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic