quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN CROMAGNOIDS ?
You complain about the first image I've posted, how about the image on the Hattab 2 Cave?
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology. And Tukuler showed you the genetic resolutions.
My complaint is that you marked remaiins from Adrar Zerzem from 2500 years ago as Taforalt Cromagnids.
As. I have stated be for, per many times. The specimen I've shown is from either Holocene Mesolithic-Neolithic (prehistoric) time. And fact of the matter is, they all cluster, with specimen from the South, as has been repeated many times by now. Shown by tons of different scientific disciplines.
We have summed up all kind of evidence, so please don't being ridiculous. (Recent slaves)
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
^^^ this article refers to a possible later extension of Iberomaurusians of Tafroalt, Morocco into Hassi-el-Abiod in Mali. This would fit the edn of wet phase transition driving this partcular robust cromagnid population south
Skeletal remains in both of these areas are temperate proportioned not tropical
_________________________________________________
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia 2010
Claudio Ottoni equal contributor, Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor, Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,Alessandro Achilli, Cristina Martínez-Labarga, Gianfranco Biondi, Antonio Torroni, Olga Rickards mail
Published: October 21, 2010
Abstract
The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1, a mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that is common in all Western European populations. To define how and when H1 spread from Europe to North Africa up to the Central Sahara, in Fezzan, we investigated the complete mitochondrial genomes of eleven Libyan Tuareg belonging to H1. Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago, while phylogenetic analyses reveal three novel H1 branches, termed H1v, H1w and H1x, which appear to be specific for North African populations, but whose frequencies can be extremely different even in relatively close Tuareg villages. Overall, these findings support the scenario of an arrival of haplogroup H1 in North Africa from Iberia at the beginning of the Holocene, as a consequence of the improvement in climate conditions after the Younger Dryas cold snap, followed by in situ formation of local H1 sub-haplogroups. This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
Entrance into the Levant paved the way to the dispersal of modern humans both north-westward into Europe and south-westward into Northern Africa [10], [11]. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), approximately between 26.5 and 19 kya [12] ice sheets largely covered large portions of North America and Europe. In warmer regions of the world, the climate was cooler and drier and deserts spread over large regions, particularly in Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia [13], [14]. Accordingly, during the LGM, humans concentrated in refugial areas of southwestern Europe, in the Balkans and Levant, and on the east European plains [9], [15], [16]. The subsequent Bølling warming, around 15 kya, triggered re-expansion processes which led to the resettlement of Central and Northern Europe. Genetic signatures of these expansions are evident in mtDNA genealogies, for instance haplogroups H1, H3 and V contributed to the gradual re-peopling of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge in the postglacial [17], [18]. Similarly, though to a lesser extent, H5*(xH5a), H20 and H21 may be associated to a postglacial population expansion phase in the Caucasus area [19]. Although restricted to the Mediterranean coast, an expansion took place also from the Italian peninsula northward, as attested to by the haplogroup U5b3 [20].
Evidence of trans-Mediterranean contacts between Northern Africa and Western Europe has been assessed at the level of different genetic markers (e.g. [21], [22], [23], [24]). With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent [17], [18], [25], but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa [26], [27]. So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.
Within the West-European component in North Africa, H1 is the most represented haplogroup with frequencies ranging from 21% in some Tunisian Berber groups to 1% in Egypt [28]. Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]. Tuareg are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of Northwest Africa, who speak a Berber language. MtDNA analyses performed on the Libyan Tuareg have highlighted their genetic relatedness with some Berber groups and other North African populations, mainly resulting from the sharing of a common West-Eurasian component. A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.
To better define the nature and extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya we have now determined the complete sequence of eleven of their mtDNAs belonging to H1. The comparison of these H1 sequences with those already available from Europe and North Africa provides new clues on how and when H1 spread in Northern Africa up to the Central Sahara.
Overall, the results of this study support the hypothesis that most of the West Eurasian maternal contribution detectable in Northwest African populations is likely linked to prehistoric (i.e. the post-glacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula) rather than more recent historic events [26], [27], [37]. Furthermore, the data presented confirm that the analysis of complete mtDNA sequences represents a valuable tool to reveal not only the spatial patterns beneath large-scale colonization events, but also those of smaller-scale dispersals which may have contributed to the origin of modern populations. In this regard, additional efforts in the full mtDNA analyses of nomad Northern African populations might resolve the debate concerning their origin and their mutual relationship.
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Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa. Mechtoids inhabited Northern Africa during late Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Ibero-Maurusian archaeological culture).
Paleolithic Ibero-Maurusian Mechtoids such as remains found at Taforalt Morocco were assimilated during Neolithic and early Bronze Age by bearers of Afrasian languages, the Capsian culture, from the anthropological standpoint, is considered an indigenous development.
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"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004 Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Really great information TP.
The Lioness is not in your league why bother with him and his simplistic analytical ability. Picture spamming.
you had to make a huge quote to make that one remark?
Look at the top of the thread, that's Troll Patrol pictures, they have no links for exact locaition and date.
And you want to pretend he has not been posting pictures?
And you want to pretend he doesnt keep asking me over and over again to post a photo?
And you want to pretend I didn't just post an Ottoni / Torroni article which you couldn't deal with ?
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Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa. Mechtoids inhabited Northern Africa during late Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Ibero-Maurusian archaeological culture).
Paleolithic Ibero-Maurusian Mechtoids such as remains found at Taforalt Morocco were assimilated during Neolithic and early Bronze Age by bearers of Afrasian languages, the Capsian culture, from the anthropological standpoint, is considered an indigenous development.
Who gives a phuck what you type and think, it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. Point blank, idiot! You are so retarded you yourself don't know what you type. One minute you'll claim they are extinct and another minute you'll claim they are a continuation. This continuation of course applies only the your hypothetical foreign back migration into Africa, the other way around means no continuation to you. Clown.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
quote:Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin,
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
quote:Who gives a phuck what you type and think, it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. Point blank, idiot!
What has been proven is that Berbers have a mixed Eurasian, European and African heritage (both ancient and recent). The rest is hogwash.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Really great information TP.
The Lioness is not in your league why bother with him and his simplistic analytical ability. Picture spamming.
you had to make a huge quote to make that one remark?
Look at the top of the thread, that's Troll Patrol pictures, they have no links for exact locaition and date.
And you want to pretend he has not been posting pictures?
And you want to pretend he doesnt keep asking me over and over again to post a photo?
And you want to pretend I didn't just post an Ottoni / Torroni article which you couldn't deal with ?
They know the link and data, I have informed them about these archeological findings, that is what makes you look like a fool.
Your photo is of someone relating to populations from the South, unfortunately you have a very low IQ, and therefore still don't get it.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Who gives a phuck what you type and think, it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. Point blank, idiot!
What has been proven is that Berbers have a mixed Eurasian, European and African heritage (both ancient and recent). The rest is hogwash.
Hogwash is the delusional rubbish you claim. Since population genetics is a buildup of several disciplines, not just genetics. Archeology, anthropology, climatology etc... play part as well.
Facts tell the Tamazight came from the South as indigenous people to Africa. Not as a foreign back migration people. Other than that nothing has been proven. And no one is saying there was no intrusion and admixture which shifted the demographics of ethnicities.
It was shown many times. But the question is and was are Berbers indigenous to Africa. Berbers are primarily not African ?
Yes, they are. If you think different, go get yourself a ticked and tell this yourself, about the hogwash. Because up till now I have not seen anyone do this.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
^^^ this article refers to a possible later extension of Iberomaurusians of Tafroalt, Morocco into Hassi-el-Abiod in Mali. This would fit the edn of wet phase transition driving this partcular robust cromagnid population south
Skeletal remains in both of these areas are temperate proportioned not tropical
_________________________________________________
.
Why the phuck you keep posting the same debunked stuff over and over is beyond me?
Tukuler has explained the nuclear resolutions, quite a few times already.
SMH,
quote:At about 40,000 years ago, however, Homo sapiens, in the form of the Cro-Magnons, began trickling into Europe, probably from an initially African place of origin.
[...]
Bone tools of the kind introduced much later to Europe by the Cro-Magnons, are found at the Congolese site of Katanda, dated to perhaps 80,000 years ago.
Blade tool industries, again formerly associated principally with the Cro-Magnons, are found at least sporadically at sites in Africa that date to as much as a quarter of a million years ago.
These and other early African innovations are reviewed by McBrearty and Brooks (2000).
quote:"The so-called Old Man [Cro-Magnon 1] became the original model for what was once termed the Cro-Magnon or Upper Paleolithic "race" of Europe.. there's no such valid biological category, and Cro-Magnon 1 is not typical of Upper Paleolithic western Europeans- and not even all that similar to the other two make skulls found at the site. Most of the genetic evidence, as well as the newest fossil evidence from Africa argue against continuous local evolution producing modern groups directly from any Eurasian pre-modern population.. there's no longer much debate that a large genetic contribution from migrating early modern Africans infuenced other groups throughout the Old World.“
--B. Lewis et al. 2008. Understanding Humans: Introduction to Physical
quote: If this analysis shows nothing else, it demonstrates that the oft-repeated European feeling that the Cro-Magnons are “us” (47) is more a product of anthropological folklore than the result of the metric data available from the skeletal remains.
--C. Loring Brace(2006) The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form
quote: It has been proposed that heat adapted, relatively long-legged Homo sapiens from Africa replaced the cold adapted, relatively short-legged Homo neandertalensis of the Levant and Europe
--J Hum Evol 32 (1997a) 423], Bogin B, Rios L. et al.
quote: The subsequent post-28,000-B.P. Gravettian human sample of Europe includes numerous associated skeletons (Table 2) (Zilhão & Trinkaus 2002). Most of these specimens are fully modern in their morphology, and there is a persistence in them of both linear (equatorial) limb proportions and more "African" nasal morphology (Trinkaus 1981, Holliday 1997, Franciscus 2003). However, one Iberian specimen (Lagar Velho 1) exhibits Neandertal limb segment proportions and a series of relatively archaic cranial and postcranial features (Trinkaus & Zilhão 2002). In addition, central incisor shoveling, ubiquitous among the Neandertals, absent in the Qafzeh-Skhul sample, and variably present in the earlier European sample, persists at modest frequencies. And scapular axillary border dorsal sulci, an apparently Neandertal feature also absent in the Qafzeh-Skhul sample, is present
--Trinkaus 2005
quote: "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
-- Am J Phys Anthropol. 1975 May;42(3):351-69,
quote:In modern humans, this elongation is a pattern characteristic of warm-adapted populations, and this physique may be an early Cro-Magnon retention from African ancestors. Similar retentions may be observed in certain indices of facial shape [ ...]
--Encyclopedia of Human Evolution and Prehistory: Second Edition by Eric Delson
quote:"others like Predomost and to a lesser degree Grimaldi and Teviec, are more prognathic like Skhul 5."
--Marta Mirazón Lahr. 2005. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity:
quote: Few scientists thought that much of evolutionary significance had gone on in North Africa, or that the region's big-toothed, somewhat archaic-looking hominins might be closely related to the ancestors of many living people. Now, thanks to new excavations and more accurate dating, North Africa boasts unequivocal signs of modern human behavior as early as anywhere else in the world, including South Africa. Climate reconstructions and fossil studies now suggest that the region was more hospitable during key periods than once thought. The data suggest that the Sahara Desert was a land of lakes and rivers about 130,000 years ago, when moderns first left Africa for sites in what is today Israel. And new studies of hominin fossils suggest some strong resemblances—and possible evolutionary connections—between North African specimens and fossils representing migrations out of Africa between 130,000 and 40,000 years ago.
--Michael Balter Was North Africa the Launch Pad for Modern Human Migrations?
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004 Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
--Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast (2004)
And the Adrar Zerzem completely debunked the recent slave transportation.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
quote:The environmental desiccation experienced in sub-tropical Africa and Asia in the sixth and fifth millennia BP appears to be associated with an abrupt cool episode occurring around 5900 years BP that led to widespread aridity (Bond et al., 1997; Goodfriend, 1991; Smith, 1998). Research into land-atmosphere interaction suggests that this event may have acted as a trigger for long-term desiccation in some regions (such as the eastern Sahara) and that subsequent desiccation around 5000 years BP was due to a collapse of vegetation feedbacks as orbital forcing of the summer monsoon weakened (Claussen et al., 1999, 2003; Haug et al., 2001). It should be noted that the cool/arid episode that has been linked to societal collapse around 4200 years BP (Cullen et al., 2000; Weiss, 1997) was of a qualitatively similar nature to that of 5900 years BP, while the outcomes of these events, according to the above hypothesis, were very different. It is not only different outcomes from similar types of event that cautions us against simple climatic determinism.
The concentration of populations in expanding settlements where surface water is available, and the organisation of these populations into specialised urban and/or stratified state-level societies, is not the only response to increasing aridity evident in the archaeological record. In other words the nature of the response is not determined by the nature of the climatic stress to which people must adapt. Differential adaptation is apparent in response to climatic desiccation in the Fezzan region of southern Libya, where Di Lernia and Palombini (2002) describe two contrasting responses to aridity in the middle Holocene. In higher elevation regions cattle herding, previously the dominant economic activity, almost completely disappeared after 5000 years BP. The keeping of cattle was replaced by highly mobile pastoralism based on sheep and goats and involving large-scale year round movement in order to exploit remnant water and pasture, a nomadic lifestyle that persists to this day. In contrast, lower elevation regions were characterised by increasing settlement in relict oases, associated with sedentism and more intensive exploitation of local resources. Settlement in the relict oases ultimately led to the emergence of the Garamantian civilisation in the early third millennium BP, based on the exploitation of underground water resources via the construction of subterranean irrigation channels or foggara (Wilson and Mattingly, 2003). The Garamantes dominated the Fezzan between about 3000 years BP and 700 years AD, and their society appears to have arisen as the result of local innovation, the outcome of a process of increasing social complexity among the pastoral groups of the Fezzan (Di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly, 2003).
As seems to have occurred in Egypt and Mesopotamia, the emergence of the Garamantian polity was associated with inward migration, increased population density, changes in religious beliefs and practices, social stratification and a more territorial approach to the landscape, catalysed by the final desiccation of most of the landscape soon after 3000 years BP (Brooks et al., 2003; Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 2001; Di Lernia et al, 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
The evidence strongly suggests that climatic desiccation centred around 5000 years BP played a major role in the emergence of early complex societies or “civilisations”, characterised by a high degree of some or all of the following: urbanisation, specialisation, social stratification, and state-level organisation. This event appears to have been connected with a combination of millennial-scale North Atlantic variability, orbitally-induced southwards monsoonal retreat, and a collapse of vegetation-atmosphere feedbacks. Nonetheless, the nature of early civilisations varied considerably, and there was no single trajectory followed by societies as they adapted to increasing aridity.
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
maybe you didn't understand this article. You can see by the map the Eurasian Iberomasurian kisses Gibraltar.
read:
SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
^^^ this means that within in Africa this "Mechtoid" human type was in the Maghreb Morocco first -then, to have later extended, from there to Mali
Do you get that ?
the extension is from the Maghreb to the Mali, Sahara
I read read the article. The similar remains in one particular site in Mali are LATER in date to the Moroccan sites in the Maghreb
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quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
maybe you didn't understand this article. You can see by the map the Eurasian Iberomasurian kisses Gibraltar.
read:
SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
^^^ this means that in Africa this type was in the Maghreb Morocco first -then, to have later extended, from there to Mali
Do you get that ?
the extension is from the Maghreb to the Mali, Sahara
I read read the article. The similar remains in one particular site in Mali are LATER in date to the Moroccan sites in the Maghreb
I do understand it very well, by this profile.
Let's read it again,
>>>The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara) raise the question of their origins : migration from Maghreb at the beginning of the Holocene during a wet climatic phase or local evolution from an aterian ancestor common to maghrebian and saharan Cromagnoids ?...
All you need to do is read all the other archeological and anthropological, climatological data I've posted.
All you need to do is look into the nuclear resolutions as posted by Tukuler.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
As I have been stating many times before, they came from the South, it has been repeated multiple times by archeology and anthropology.
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
quote: Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN 1988
you have clearly misuderstood this article
It is saying that Taforalt Morocco type humans extended from the North, in Morocco, the Mahgreb to the South in Mali
You have it backwards
The remains in the SAHARA (Mali) were an extension of the Taforalt Moroccan reamins in the MAGHREB
I don't have it backwards, I look into many different data, as I have posted. This is what confirms that they came from the South. This is the part you don't get. In that study, they were surprised about such striking similarities.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ]I don't have it backwards, I look into many different data, as I have posted. This is what confirms that they came from the South. This is the part you don't get. In that study, they were surprised about such striking similarities. [/QB]
it's very simple look at where FROM is and where TO is
FROM Morocco in the MAGHREB
TO Mali in the SAHARA
They noticed a similarity between LATER remains in MALI to the remains in TAFORALT Morocco
--- It's evident in the title of the article
>>> And if you translate the article to English
you have the quote indicating this:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
migration from Maghreb
Also note that some of thes sites have skeletons from differnt time periods, different types within them
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ]I don't have it backwards, I look into many different data, as I have posted. This is what confirms that they came from the South. This is the part you don't get. In that study, they were surprised about such striking similarities.
it's very simple look at where FROM is and where TO is
FROM Morocco in the MAGHREB
TO Mali in the SAHARA
They noticed a similarity between LATER remains in MALI to the remains in TAFORALT Morocco
--- It's evident in the title of the article
>>> And if you translate the article to English
you have the quote indicating this:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
migration from Maghreb
Also note that some of thes sites have skeletons form differnt time periods, different types within them [/QB]
The only scrutiny evidence in that article is that the specimen clusters. No more no less. Everything else was a question mark for them. ("raise the question of their origins").
Yet, what we find is that all cluster with specimen from the South, remarkable it's it?
This follows the path of the nuclear DNA. As Tukular explained to you. Straight from the Sudan.
quote:Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
quote:The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery...
The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions...
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
--Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) (1975)
The geographical area studied (region of Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali)
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the MaghrebPosts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:... it has been proven that these people were indigenous Africans, relating to people from the South, Sahara. ...
What has been proven is that Berbers have a mixed Eurasian, European and African heritage (both ancient and recent). The rest is hogwash.
posted
Ok so this is a quote from the peer reviewed paper titled "Yemenis in the Western Sahara" by H. T. Norris. Source" The Journal of African History. Vol 3. No. 2, Third Conference on African History and Archeology: School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, 3-7 July 1961 from page 319
Here is a video of Tajkinti people (one of the tribes mentioned in the article). These are found in Algeria according to what the caption on the video says.
There look would make sense if they were the original Moors. You see from the video they go from being very dark/black to being mulatto to white looking. Being in Europe for centuries, I am positive they would have mixed with Europeans hence the myriad of colors.
Here are Hadhrami people in Yemen doing Folk Dances:
I would assume these people left Yemen with their black color, when they entered Africa and probably acquired lighter skinned kins men as they mixed when Europeans, Arabs and Turks. We also know that untold number of Europeans were brought into Africa as slaves back then as well.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
The thing for Imazighen avoiding Yemeni Arabs to do was to retreat from their advance. So they moved ever southward but the banu Hassan caught up to them and beat them in war. They then established themselves as the ruling class.
Naturally, to escape oppression, any Amazigh who could did in fact claim Yemeni ancestry. Only a few Imazighen proudly retained their Zenaga identity. Today they number less than 1000.
That Zenaga Imazighen of Mauritania and the Western Sahara are Yemeni Arabs is a self-serving social myth for the most part.
Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs and Arab influence from the north. The growing Arab presence pressed the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.
After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by the Berbers. Several groups of Yemeni Arabs who had been devastating the north of Africa turned south to Mauritania. Settling in northern Mauritania, they disrupted the caravan trade, causing routes to shift east, which in turn led to the gradual decline of Mauritania's trading towns. One particular Yemeni group, the Bani Hassan, continued to migrate southward until, by the end of the 17th century, they dominated the entire country. The last effort of the Berbers to shake off the Arab yoke was the Mauritanian Thirty Years' War (1644-74), or Sharr Bubba, led by Nasir ad Din, a Lemtuna imam (see Glossary). This Sanhadja war of liberation was, however, unsuccessful; the Berbers were forced to abandon the sword and became vassals to the warrior Arab groups.
Thus, the contemporary social structure of Mauritania can be dated from 1674. The warrior groups or Arabs dominated the Berber groups, who turned to clericalism to regain a degree of ascendancy. At the bottom of the social structure were the slaves, subservient to both warriors and Islamic holy men. All of these groups, whose language was Hassaniya Arabic, became known as Maures. The bitter rivalries and resentments characteristic of their social structure were later fully exploited by the French.
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Tukuler
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posted
A good capsule of Bekada's (2013, Pereira ed.) data for our purposes is Table 2 with the Table S9 key.
Here is T2 with populations reordered from Mauritania across Mediterranean Africa to Arabia and the Levant then from Iran across Southwest Asia's mountains to the peninsulas, islands, and coast of Mediterranean Europe.
I've included, at bottom, a somewhat phylogenetic reorder of Bekada's TS9. There, are detailed, the haplogroups and the major geographies she's assigned to each one; either East Africa, Europe, Mid-East, North Africa, or West Africa.
Bekada recognizes a subclade may be of a different geography than its parent clade or that clade's upstream haplogroup(s).
-----------
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Tukuler
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posted
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each target African group and views of them as * a Northern Africa superset * a Tamazgha subset, and * a Maghrebi core subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
This posting updates or replaces my comments on quoted Bekada non-raw data text statements made in earlier posts to this thread.
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Clearly we can see that mtDNA haplogroups TUV are the product of back migration into Africa (a very long time ago). They are all descendants of the N haplogroup (and R) which originates in population who left Africa after the main OOA migration. Then migrated back into Africa a very long time ago. Then they admixed between themselves, with other (sub-Saharan) Africans and with Western Asians (Arabs). They obviously have ownership right on the continent (as any citizen of African country for that matter) but they are still the product of 3 different ancestral origin. European, Eurasian and African. A nice mix.
Using autosomal DNA they tend to cluster with Eurasian more. Same as culturally. If you ask them they would also say the same thing in general; They feel they are part of the Middle Eastern/Mediterranean cultural field.
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Tukuler
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posted
Why are you placing Europe first? It is just a graft onto the African tree. Also Europe is part of EurAsia so why list Europe and Eurasia when Eurasia suffices?
Why are you placing Africa last? Africa alone is the "Berber" root. U6 is recognized as African. E-M35 is recognized as African.
If H1,3 is European it still came later. Eurasian nrY J came even later still. H1,3 is controversial since Frigi postulated their likely African origin.
As will be seen as I progress thru recent genetic reports autosomes reveal North African populations as overwhelming of local African biology. Just look at some of the structure skylines.
Can you please shrink those images they are stretching the page width forcing left right scrolling each and every line just to read all the previous posts.
Thanks for not making my thread a scroll pain to follow and read.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Why are you placing Europe first?
Because first they were European migrants carrying mtDNA HUV, in very ancient time, who then admixed Africans carrying E-M81 (as well as other European and West Asians). Both M81 and the Berber language are relatively recent.
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Tukuler
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posted
Please shrink or post links to those migration maps, thank you. Thanks for not making my thread a scroll pain to follow and read.
U6 is some 40k old and is not European at all. H1,3 is only 12k old. V is the same age or younger. That is just the female side. And it excludes mtDNA L's in NA which are as old as H1,3 and V.
What male signatures are coeval with indigenous U6?
What would compiling an NA table with the following columns reveal?
Haplogroup - Possible time of origin - Possible place of origin - Highest frequencies
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Please shrink or post links to those migration maps, thank you. Thanks for not making my thread a scroll pain to follow and read.
U6 is some 40k old and is not European at all.
It's Eurasian because it's parents are Eurasian. Descended from mtDNA N and R haplogroups. MtDNA haplogroups which originate outside Africa as we can see on the maps.
Unfortunately, the aDNA samples didn't involve Y-DNA analysis, so we don't know anything about the Y-DNA profile of any ancient specimen in the Maghreb.
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Tukuler
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posted
By that argument N is African because its parent L3 is African. In fact it is referred to as L3N in the field. Continuing that argument R is African because N is African.
Anyway no population geneticist claims U6 is Eurasian.
U6 is universally recognized as local North African.
In regards to Bekada please refer to the tables where she qualifies haplogroups by geography. To avoid endless argument over hg provenance I am just using what geneticsts reports I cite say are the haplogroups geographic assignments.
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The growing Arab presence pressed the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those
The concept being put forward with these two statements is that the berbers are primarily African but not blacks.
The question that comes up is is there such thing as a deep rooted purely indigenous African berber or are berbers by definition mixed people only in part deep rooted indigenous Africans regardless of if they are primarily, i.e. 50%+, one side or the other, African/Eurasian.
There is not much importants to this word "primarily". If somebody is 60% one thing and 40% another they are significantly mixed. And I suppose this also means Barack Obama is not black
And although there may have been a lot of European slave input into Algeria, H, HV0 J, U DNA Haplogroups have been detected in Paleolithic remains in Morocco. That means Eurasians were in the region in prehistoric times. That is green period Maghreb before "berber" is even recognized historically. These Eurasians may have been as dark as the darker Southern Europeans, yet cold adapted in physical morphology
All this effort to state the obvious, the berbers are a mixed people
- and people prehistorically, of the same region
This term "Moor" is interesting because of potential overlap with the term "berber"
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Unfortunately, the aDNA samples didn't involve Y-DNA analysis, so we don't know anything about the Y-DNA profile of any ancient specimen in the Maghreb. [/QB]
Yes, people forget this
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Tukuler
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posted
Had you never posited the erroneous statement Berbers are not primarily African this thread would not be necessary to dispel your lie.
Geneticists recognize deep rooting and say Berber deep rooting is African.
quote: ... ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. ... Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
Frigi 2010 abstract
Berber origins are already established as African. We will continue quantifying admixture to Berbers onto their qualifying foundational African root.
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Tukuler
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posted
I think it's pretty much established in the field that usable ancient DNA is always mitochondrial. If either of you had looked at several human aDNA reports you'd know this and wouldn't ask why Kefi left out nrY DNA.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Unfortunately, the aDNA samples didn't involve Y-DNA analysis, so we don't know anything about the Y-DNA profile of any ancient specimen in the Maghreb.
Yes, people forget this [/QB]
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Had you never posited the erroneous statement Berbers are not primarily African this thread would not be necessary to dispel your lie.
Geneticists recognize deep rooting and say Berber deep rooting is African.
quote: Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
Frigi 2010 abstract
Me and Diop, yeah
You with the idea of a primarily African people yet not black
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: By that argument N is African because its parent L3 is African. In fact it is referred to as L3N in the field. Continuing that argument R is African because N is African.
Anyway no population geneticist claims U6 is Eurasian.
Every geneticists admit it's parent haplogroup like other ancestral U, N and R is Eurasian even if the U6 mutation itself may have first appeared in North Africa (or in the Near East or Iberia). So ultimately they are a product of a very ancient back migration into Africa. Autosomal DNA would also cluster most Berbers with Eurasians not with other black African people.
This study goes even further than me and posit a Near Eastern origin of U6:
quote:World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6.
From Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeographyPosts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tukuler
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posted
And ultimately U N & R are a product of a very ancient movement from Africa thus by your tautological argument they too are African.
But I don't go for any of that. Don't like Bekada assigning U6 to North Africa then write and take it up with her.
U6 is African, period. U6 is not their only pre-Holocene African mtDNA. Even Maca-Meyer who thinks Caucasians existed >40k recognizes that U6 is a native African haplogroup.
I am not going to continue this chit chat but do invite you read and analyze genetic reports and post their raw data in support of your view.
Me I'm just doing that very thing and this first analysis featuring Bekada approached neutrally wound up with raw data leaning to Berbers are primarily African. It did not show that Berbers are not primarily African.
You can keep going on with unsupported viewpoints and twisting accepted haplogroup geographies or you can do some research and present it here.
I'm not responding to anymore personal opinions today.
My task is not to convince you but to provide facts and figures and their assessment to the readership.
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I find a number of issues with what you have. The first of which is the fact it doesn't seem to point to any verifiable evidence, just conjecture and supposition.
Secondly it tries to separate the Amazigh from other black Africans, in some fantastical made up sorta way. We know the Sanhaja were black, because of eye witness accounts. There was a group of white sanhaja, but the majority are described as being black by eye witness. Eye witnesses attempted to explain the appearance of whites who were called Sanhaja to geographical location, ie environment turning their black skin white, which is silly. More likely than not some outside group mixed into the main Sanhaja group and a portion of them because white looking. Here is a excerpt taken from the peer reviewed article "What Happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun:
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'm not responding to anymore personal opinions today.
Thank you for your opinion.
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Tukuler
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posted
TypeZeiss
I am not in total agreement with that quote from the Library of Congress on Mauritania but it served the purpose of explaining that Maures are not Yemenis but were conquered by them, absorbed them, and took on their lect.
You and I both know the antipathy Senegalese hold for Mauritanians is what was behind Diop claiming Yemeni ancestry for Maures as a whole.
Also you must be precise in examining Maure origins and components and not think general statements about Niger Kel Tamasheq applies to Zenaga Mauritanians.
Of course the Imazighen avoiding the Arabs were black or the most part but please don't act like you don't know that in this region non-Afasian speakers themselves do not call Imazighen black even if they're actual skin tone is as black as a cooking pot.
You do know I'm the guy who's posted info on the type of black local to North Africa for years on end. For instance see Algerian mosaics (link) and this statement from the authentic Moors thread
quote: We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows soot isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
and more info I posted on black North Africa goes unsaid.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am not in total agreement with that quote but it served the purpose of explaining that Maures are not Yemenis but were conquered by them, absorbed them, and took on their lect.
You and I both know the antipathy Senegalese hold for Mauritanians is what was behind Diop claiming Yemeni ancestry for Maures as a whole.
Also you must be precise in examining Maure origins and components and not think general statements about Niger Kel Tamasheq applies to Zenaga Mauritanians.
Of course the Imazighen avoiding the Arabs were black or the most part but please don't act like you don't know that in the region non-Afasian speakers themselves do not call Imazighen black even if they're actual skin tone is as black as a cooking pot.
In every other post Tukuler is bullshitting us. I would take Diop over Tukuler any time of the day. One is a great African historian, the other, well just an ID on the ES forum, who knows who's behind it...
Berbers don't see themselves as especially affiliated with other black Africans so why would anyone try to push down this issue down our throats? What is this obsession with Berbers and North Africans in general? They are proud people and they don't deny themselves their own ancestry. Which happens to be corroborated by genetics and our knowledge of history.
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Tukuler
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posted
Yeah sure I have a 10 year history on ES as a surreptitious bullshit agent.
Ad hominem is one heluva substitute for research.
Raw DNA data on Berbers is slapping the **** out of you.
Playing my hand before its time but AUTOSOMES do show local African predominance in NA Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Yeah sure I have a 10 year history on ES as a surreptitious bullshit agent.
Ad hominem is one heluva substitute for research.
Raw DNA data on Berbers is slapping the **** out of you.
Playing my hand before its time but AUTOSOMES showing local African predominance in NA
Your autosomal picture don't shows Berbers to be especially affiliated with other black Africans. It just shows that Berber are in North Africa since a long time ago (pale blue part, dark blue part at K=8), then it shows West Asian (Green and purple) admixture.
Even Tunisians grew up to form their own cluster with their dark blue part (according to your graph). As any populations eventually would in those analysis. It doesn't mean they were always isolated from every other populations in North Africa and the rest of the world. I'm not sure you have enough genetic knowledge to understand that.
You're don't realize what you posted is completely in line with what I said above. That Berbers are mix of European, West Asian and African ancestry (ancient and recent).
When geneticist say North African ancestry they don't mean they are related to other Sub-Saharan Africans, they mean that those ancestry are in North Africa since a very long time ago.
Every geneticists would agree that HUV haplogroups ancestral parents originate outside Africa. Either in Europe or Western Asia.
In other words, Berbers are in North Africa since a long time and are not especially related to other black Africans beside through admixture. They are mixed. There's nothing wrong with having a nice admixture. Berbers don't deny it and nobody else deny it beside ES Tukuler obsessed with Berbers and North African populations.
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Tukuler
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posted
Stop playing dumb, Maghrebis have their own local distinct autosome set and it clearly predominates.
Don't be so obtuse. Berbers are root Africans who have been mixed by grafted on EurAsians. Too bad for those who don't like it or can't comprehend what they read and go on to erroneously assume what I do or don't know when a simple reading of all I've posted on Berbers for near on a decade now clearly shows I know Berbers are derived from Pleistocene Africans who later mixed with Holocene nonAfricans.
North Africa was never originally migrant Europeans who settled unoccupied landspace only to later mix with natives from ???.
The point is not to turn North Africans into any other kind of Africans than they are and they indeed are the local variant of African.
You have seen examples of African dominant Berber uniparentals.
You have seen examples of African dominant Berber autosomes.
You have failed to show nonAfrican dominant Berber DNA.
You just can't handle the straight scientific data because it knocks the **** out your personal opinion.
So go on with your biased chit chat since we see you can't read, analyze, critique, comment on, or cite and post from population genetics texts just the pretty pictures from DNAtribes or Family Tree DNA is at your speed.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The point is not to turn North Africans into any other kind of Africans than they are and they indeed are the local variant of African.
First it was the Berbers now it's the whole North Africans which are supposedly genetically and historically related to other sub-Saharan Africans. You're getting more ridiculous.
Everybody knows North Africans are mostly related to Eurasian. Either in Ancient or more recent time. Which btw is not a crime. They are great people, who have full ownership right in Africa but they sprung from different origins and are not so much genetically related to other black Africans. Not even Berbers and North Africans deny their own Eurasian ancestry. Only ES Tukuler.
For example, this man is a Zambian, an African (of "recent" European origin) and he has been chosen as Vice-President of Zambia. I don't think he's genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
I'm sure like the Berbers and other North Africans, he is also proud of his ancestral origin. So who are you ES Tukuler to deny that? You don't even have enough genetic knowledge to understand anything you're talking about.
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Tukuler
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posted
Please quote me saying North Africans have no Eurasian ancestry.
You fall to the lowest of the low, fabricating outright lies about me. You can only sling personal insults. You have no science to post.
Don't you got nothing to post from scientific studies?
Nope not a damn thing just frustrations against al~Takruri.
You have proven you know absolutely nothing about genetics.
And just who are you Mr. self proclaimed "the Ultimate"? The ultimate what? The ultimate mouth runner is about all. Do you really think you can appeal to ES readership against me? Now that's the funniest fallacy of all!!!
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Tukuler
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