quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You ignore history. LAgain, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation. [/QB]
"Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. People of various backgrounds become berbers. Brown skinned straight haired Phoenicians from the Middle East and relatively darker Southern Europeans and Levantines have been coming into North Africa for much longer than you are claiming to times well before Christ. It is easily observed and recorded in Egyptian art, "Asiatics", Libyans, Hyksos, Sea People These people all mix together and with some indigenous Africans and are the berbers. "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. It is by nature a mixture of people whose ancestors may have had different nationalities long ago. They are all called "berbers" because berber is a language and culture.
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You ignore history. LAgain, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
"Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. People of various backgrounds become berbers. Brown skinned straight haired Phoenicians from the Middle East and relatively darker Southern Europeans and Levantines have been coming into North Africa for much longer than you are claiming to times well before Christ. It is easily observed and recorded in Egyptian art. These people all mix together and with some indigenous Africans and are the berbers. "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. It is by nature a mixture of people whose ancestors may have had different nationalities long ago. They are all called "berbers" because berber is a language and culture. [/QB]
there is no language called Berber so wrong there. Berbers are not one homogenous group nor do they have common origin, wrong there again. Berbers are not necessarily nomad either.
As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles and you provide a barrage of googled photos of things, of which you can not prove their origin. You then follow up with a bunch of assumptions, which I can only assume have their origins in your fantasy? You typing your on educated opinions, doesn't make it a fact. You ignore my question and I will repeat it again, WHAT DID THE GREEKS SAY THE PHOENICIANS LOOKED LIKE? You in 2014 can never trump the account of people who were there during the events.
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They are said to have E-M81 frequencies of over 80% Y DNA
There is no way of knowing if he has this level of M81
Suppose he does.
It is possible that E-M81 produces a person that has features that people might think look more similar to Europeans than other Africans even though it might be a completely African haplogroup. I'm not sure about this. Also the hair. Is E-M81 associated with afro kinky hair or another type of hair or cannot be correlated to hair. I don't know
Therefore if you look at the person above and ask "does he look African? " and someone says "no" or "half" they have to justify it, why not.
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posted
@Sage or anyone who can follow this stuff. I decided to re-read some older papers and I came across two papers I would recommend on the subject. All your answers are there.
1. Comas and Calafell et al - mt heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers
2. Plaza and Calafell et al - joining pillars of Hercules : mtDNA in ....western med.
These are two landmark papers. I may critique them on ESR.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads.
Horseshit.
Berbers in Morocco's Atlas and Berbers in Saharan ksars are not nomads.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: M81 is a unique African haplogroup not believed to have originated in Europe.
Your outlook is so Eurocentric.
Why speak of E-M81 in European terms?
E-M81 flat out originated in Africa not in some vague place called non-Europe.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Going back to the Iberomaurusian and capsian hunter gatherers of the wet period and the variety of differing skull types there as well as tool kit it's hard to tell if they are all indigenous African
More nonsense and Eurocentric daydreaming.
The Maurusian owes nothing to non-African anything.
The tool kit is 100% African. We went over this thoroughly in the Why iberoMAURUSIAN thread 13 months ago.
You carp about redundancy but you sorely need the repetition because you continue in denial of fact and act like you never been told these things and go on to poison minds who naively entertain you seriously.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage or anyone who can follow this stuff. I decided to re-read some older papers and I came across two papers I would recommend on the subject. All your answers are there.
1. Comas and Calafell et al - mt heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers
2. Plaza and Calafell et al - joining pillars of Hercules : mtDNA in ....western med.
These are two landmark papers. I may critique them on ESR.
Late last year I lost my external storage so all my genetic reports, files, and notes are toast.
As a result I lost interest in genetics until now so now I have to rebuild that library but some of the best stuff is no longer free.
I could've posted Ennafaa2012's pies (from my old Kefi thread -- some asking about NW Afr aDNA still don't realize the Taforalt chart I posted in this thread is what they've crying for) and raw data tables S5 & S6 for overall Morocco and Tunisia mtDNA & nrY Chr along with Henn2012's K=8&10 STRUCTURE skylines for overall Saharawi to Egypt autosomal SNPs.
Actually I do have a tentative writeup but want something from 2013 like maybe Bekada or whoever before I post it.
No wine before its time.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: ... no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
What is the genetic signature of these slaves and how did they and their offspring come to outnumber their masters and the region's general population?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: It is hard to believe white European women was in search of black love, or hunting for food without their white men in Sahel central Africa 20,000ya. In fact Henn concluded this back migration "IF" it occurred, was close to 40,000ya. Iirc Cruciani and others speculated 30,000ya. Kivildsid? speculated occupation of NA about 50,000ya. Anthropological evidence point to more than 100,000ya.
Point ? There is no race. Only populations.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!
Of course the refugium overflow theory for H1'3 in NA is whack because there was no ice to stop traffic between Iberia and NW Maroc during LGM.
And as you say what about Iberian males? There is no Euro male signature co-temporal with NA H1'3.
Geneticists fail to consider those two facts when postulating their Iberian origins. Yet the H1'3 had to come from H. Afaict, H is not an African originated mtDNA haplogroup.
More analysis is needed on this.
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posted
It really a good idea to periodically go back and read some of these older papers even if it is dated(2003). Here is an informative piece of data/information .
From : Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean S. Plaza1, F. Calafell1, Comas
Quote: ***** Simoni et al. 2000a; Richards et al. 2000). It has been suggested that haplogroup V originated and expanded from NE Iberia (Torroni et al. 1998; Torroni et al. 2001). In the European samples analysed, its frequency (which includes pre-V and V proper as defined by Torroni et al. 2001) ranges from 2.7% in Sardinia and Southern Italy to 10.4% in Basques, and is absent in Central Spaniards, Valencians, and Tuscans. Except in Algerians and Tunisians, haplogroup V has been found in all the samples analysed, with ****high frequencies among the Saharawi (17.9%) and Southern Berbers (10%). ****In order to elucidate the phylogenetic relationships between sequences, a network of V sequences was constructed (Figure 3). The network displayed a clear star-like pattern with all V sequences found in NW Africa close to the *****V sequence root type***** or with one or two added substitutions, whereas Italian and Iberian V sequences show a wider distribution of substitutions. OUT OF THE FIVE DIFFERENT V HAPLOTYPES FOUND IN NW AFRICA, THREE WERE THOSE THAT ARE MOST FREQUENT IN EUROPE, while only two were specific to NW Africa. A time depth for the haplogroup V of 13,700 ± 3,000 years was estimated when all sequences were included, similar to previous estimates (Torroni et al. 2001). The last section of the mtDNA phylogeny considered includes the Eurasian haplogroups W, I, X, and haplogroup M. Haplogroups W, I, and X are basically found in continental Italy, and some traces are found in Iberians, Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccan Arabs. The M sequences found in the analysed populations can be sorted into two different phylogenetic groups: haplogroups M1 and M5. It has been suggested that ******
Now the questions is how many of us understand what was said there? And the significance it it. I am indebted to you, Sage, for re-visiting the subject. I missed this the first time around.
What does the above excerpt tell us?
1. Torroni is either a liar or quack, which I have been saying all along. 2. There have been several waves of Africans entering Europe from NW from the Maghreb. 3. mtDNA-V seemed to have entered Europe through Iberia and to a lesser extent Sardinia into Italy. 4. Proving yet again. Massive influx of AMH into Europe through NW then Europe, consistent with Henn's SNP data pack. 5. Relevance? mtDNA HV and the high frequency in Berbers and Europe?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
you say "migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated"
Before that point, in the middle of the LGM when temerpatures dropped to ice age conditions where did the people who had been living in Northern and Central Europe go?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles
There was a Tukuler post quoting a peer recviewed article originally posted by Troll Patrol.
You posted no peer reviewed articles on this page or the first page of the thread.
Why are you saying you posted peer reviewed articles when you did not post any peer reviewed articles?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Keep in mind the above are Berber communities. The top four are all in Tunisia. You can't say those frequencies are average for Tunisia or the Maghreb in general. There is a large Arab component to the Tunisians. The frequency for M81 in Tunisia is 62.73, quite high yes but not in the 80% plus field of some Tunisian berber groups. And in Tunisia there are also some berber groups with high but similar lower frequencies than 80%, for example the Sened and Jerbian.
And while Algerian Mozabites average at 86.6% Algerian average at 44.23%
I point this out because people on ES often speak in such a way as if these berber villages represent the larger North Africa. They don't, the cities do.
I've posted links to the mtDNA and Y Dna of berbers. Tukuler still hasn't consolidated the numbers and tried to make a case with the raw genetic data. Further, it must be placed in context of the whole population of the Maghreb with additional information as to the berber population context, the population number of particular berber groups. One berber group may be much larger than another berber group. Therefore that is a second factor. That is if you want to do things properly
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Quote: In order to elucidate the phylogenetic relationships between sequences, a network of V sequences was constructed (Figure 3). The network displayed a clear star-like pattern with all V sequences found in NW Africa close to the V sequence root type or with one or two added substitutions, whereas Italian and Iberian V sequences show a wider distribution of substitutions
---
There is nothing to further discuss. Really! The V sequence in Africa is at the base of the V tree. Africa has ALL the sequences found in Europe ...and more!! Meaning what?! tic! toc!
Which means Torroni either lied or was incompetent when he did his study on V back in 2001.
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posted
typeZeiss the theme of this thread is not when the ancestry of the berbers became the way it is today.
The theme is are the berbers on average more African than not African.
Tukuler and xyyman think that the average berber when you combine all the various berber groups as whole is primarily African. Do you agree?
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
you say "migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated"
Before that point, in the middle of the LGM when temerpatures dropped to ice age conditions where did the people who had been living in Northern and Central Europe go?
xyyman says the same thing about the Refugium in many posts yet when asked he can never explain what he thinks happened to the people in Europe. He has no credibility on this topic. It's useless to say one theory is wrong and then never to have a theory which explains "what really happened"
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posted
I answered that question several times..and in this thread. mtDNA U5b* is spread all over Europe albeit at low frequencies. This clade has been found in most aDNA in Europe. NG has several Documentaries speculating on pockets of survival of AMH throughout Europe during the Glacial Age. Many researchers also speculate that AMH DID survive througout Europe during the LGM. Although there was population reduction.
The more significant question is what Sage pointed out. "What is the male counter-part to African mtDNA H"?.
There is really no discussion on whether H is African.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I answered that question several times..and in this thread. mtDNA U5b* is spread all over Europe albeit at low frequencies. This clade has been found in most aDNA in Europe. NG has several Documentaries speculating on pockets of survival of AMH throughout Europe during the Glacial Age. Many researchers also speculate that AMH DID survive througout Europe during the LGM. Although there was population reduction.
The more significant question is what Sage pointed out. "What is the male counter-part to African mtDNA H"?.
There is really no discussion on whether H is African.
Why are you talkin about DNA in a question a refugia? The refugia describes migration into geographic regions. It is not a genetic term.
The refugia IS pockets of survival of AMH throughout Europe during the Glacial Age.
That is what it is, as you describe
_____________________________________
Refugium (population biology)
In biology, a refugium (plural: refugia), sometimes termed simply a refuge or just a "fuge," is a location of an isolated or relict population of a once more widespread species. This isolation (allopatry) can be due to climatic changes, geography, or human activities such as deforestation and overhunting. ____________________________________
In other words a "pocket"
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posted
Typical white people BS semantics word games. As I said I have never come across a white person smarter than me. "Pockets" and you missed "throughout.".6
Anyways!! Anyone get the question about the African male counterpart to mtDNA H entering Europe ? I will explain later.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I will critique the entire "pillars" paper on ESR when I have the time but the excerpt sums it up.
What is fascinating is the most sub-Saharan of the Berbers carry the root mtDNA V and they are geographically located to the western part of Africa. GTFOH. Lol!
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posted
See Lioness. I don't need pic spam gimmick.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The discussion we should be having is not whether Berbers are primarily African . Undoubtedly they are. The discussion should be:
-What are the male counterpart to H1 and H3 -Is it really R1b-M269? Why? -Are the molecular clocks synchronized for mtDNA and y-DNA? There are differences in methodology on calculating mutation rate. See my thread on ESR on Oldest African man- A00. There are three popular methods leading to 3 different clocks/ages.
Where am I going with this? We will see..for another thread.
Getting back to the Saharawi's, Beyoku's cherished Berbers, But I admit I am partial to the Mazab Berbers, either way they are the two most non-European Berber groups based upon autosomal SNP data published by DNATrbies using several hundred thousand genetic markers IIRC both are the only Berber group that have 0% of so called European SNP!!!
Do anyone see the perplexity here? Looking at it holistically. Remember the Mazabites also have a higher frequency of the "so-called" Neanderthal genetic material than Europeans as do East Asians. As posted in another thread.
So let us summarize: Saharawi's has 0% "European classified" autosomal SNP, but has the highest male and female Sub-Saharan lineage of all Berbers, carry African STR(CODIS/Forensic) like other Berbers, and some "European" mtDNA lineages, has the highest frequency of male R-V88 of ALL Berber groups, absolutely zero R-M269, has the oldest form(basal) of mtDNA hg-V/HV. More so than Europeans. Carry the highest frequency of the said mtDNA group. The highest frequency of mtDNA hg-V OUTSIDE of Africa is found immeduately next to the Saharawis in Iberia(Basque). Iberia(Basque) is "proclaimed" to be the source of most European male and female lineage originating via the Refugium. Get the picture(pardon the pon Lioness)? I agree with Beyoku on this. The Saharawi's Berbers are indeed special!!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Oh and Lioness, I don't think Sage is agreeing with me. If I read him correctly Sage is Sahelian and taking his feud with the Amazigh personally. He is reluctant to accept light skinned Tunisians as a continental. But he is still my Africanist brotha.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
To those that don't get it. Calafell just called Torroni a liar. Which I knew he was. There is no "refugium", the ice age slowed the migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated. MtDNA U has a similar pattern. It is pre LGM.
You do know Torroni "invented" the Refugium Theory?
you say "migration it picked up where it left off when the ice retreated"
Before that point, in the middle of the LGM when temerpatures dropped to ice age conditions where did the people who had been living in Northern and Central Europe go?
xyyman says the same thing about the Refugium in many posts yet when asked he can never explain what he thinks happened to the people in Europe. He has no credibility on this topic. It's useless to say one theory is wrong and then never to have a theory which explains "what really happened"
.
Substituting N&C Europe for north Morocco in regards to central and south Iberia and is a bait and switch diversion.
There was no ice between C&S Iberia and N Maroc during the LGM to impede travel hence Refugium Theory does not apply to C&S Iberia and N Maroc movement.
So saying H1'3 came to N Afr as a result of refugia emptying from north Iberia doesn't hold because the N Ibr movement was into C&N Europe which was previously impeded by LGM conditions.
Simple logic but unthought of until Xyyman, afaik.
One proof of this is African absence of immediate post-LGM uniparentals that spread thru Europe. No? (All should know I lost all my genetics studies and notes and am going only from memory -- which can be hazy or colored -- so anybody please inform and correct me where and if I'm against established fact.)
The whole of central and south Iberia, Corsica, Sardinaia, the Apennine & Balkan peninsulas, and Anatolia along with littoral North Africa from Morocco to Tunisia was one big refugium.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Oh and Lioness, I don't think Sage is agreeing with me. If I read him correctly Sage is Sahelian and taking his feud with the Amazigh personally. He is reluctant to accept light skinned Tunisians as a continental. But he is still my Africanist brotha.
.
No I do not share Diop's Senegalese antipathy for Mauritania's Arab Berbers. Of course all native Maghrebis are African whatever their skin colour. However, matters on the table show they mentally align with non-Africans and don't have African affairs at heart that apply to anywhere else except the northern 3rd of the continent.
The problem lies with so-called Amazigh activists.
Day to day I interface with Jews and Muslims from North Africa without any squabble. For example; going through religious certification (to be simultaneously kasher and halal) for a restaurant to be owned by a guy whose mother is a N Afr Jew while his father is a Palestinian Muslim and the co-partner is a Moroccan Muslim who refuses choosing between being Arab or Berber -- the guy somehow felt the need to apologize to me for his off-white complexion foisting it off on European grandmothers.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukuler still hasn't consolidated the numbers and tried to make a case with the raw genetic data.
What was it the old joke said? "Patience jackass patience."
I explained yesterday about why I haven't posted it yet.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Bookmarked thread. Good job Tukuler.
All for you and yours!
Best to save threads you really like because you never know if they'll get the axe.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
TypeZeiss is welcome to post whatever he wants to.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: typeZeiss the theme of this thread is not when the ancestry of the berbers became the way it is today.
The theme is are the berbers on average more African than not African.
Tukuler and xyyman think that the average berber when you combine all the various berber groups as whole is primarily African. Do you agree?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles
There was a Tukuler post quoting a peer recviewed article originally posted by Troll Patrol.
You posted no peer reviewed articles on this page or the first page of the thread.
Why are you saying you posted peer reviewed articles when you did not post any peer reviewed articles?
I posted the names of peer reviewed articles. I can not post the actual articles as they are on jstor and without a account, the link would be useless to anyone here.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: typeZeiss the theme of this thread is not when the ancestry of the berbers became the way it is today.
The theme is are the berbers on average more African than not African.
Tukuler and xyyman think that the average berber when you combine all the various berber groups as whole is primarily African. Do you agree?
I understand the theme, but origins play heavily into this. Devils like you would want to try and argue that those European features 50% of the people in the North display i.e. white skin and such is indigenous to North Africa based on some DNA argument, and that just doesn't work. There are to many other factors in that equation.
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There is a great peer reviewed paper called "What happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun" written by Dr. Richard L Smith. He quotes a number of sources, dating back to about 500 BCE, which describe nothing but BLACK Africans living in North Africa. Then about 1100 AD Ibn Khaldoun describes one of the Sanhaja tribes is being bayda “whites” and the rest as blacks (suda). Ibn Khaldoun in his description even states the Black tribes of the Sanhaja are believed to be the original group and the whites looked like that because they were in the north and thus their skin became white. A silly notion indeed, but still shows that North Africa in ancient times, up until recently was dominated by blacks.
There is a good peer reviewed paper titled “Judaic Threads in the West African Tapestry: No More Forever?” by Dr. Labelle Prussin.
My mistake, you did mention these two references in your earlier post inside a larger paragrah. usually people have it as a separate line and link but OK, you did refer to them although not quoting
I will look into them if I can
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Devils like you would want to try and argue that those European features 50% of the people in the North display i.e. white skin and such is indigenous to North Africa based on some DNA argument, and that just doesn't work.
^^^ as I predicted discussion ensues and the word "North African" is assumed synomous with "berber".
Ok, we'll go along with that for a moment
typeZeiss' position is that 50% of North Africa is white.
His argument is disputing the reason for it
xyyman's Tukular's position is that North Africa is primarily African, more than 50%,
although "African" and "white" are not the only categories to describe all the people
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Bookmarked thread. Good job Tukuler.
All for you and yours!
Best to save threads you really like because you never know if they'll get the axe.
Is there a special way of saving threads?
All I do is bookmark.
Use screen capture software which enables scrolling while capturing. I use 'Snagit'. That way you can capture lengthy vertical documents, which in this case would be thread pages, and convert them into JPG/PNG/Gif etc. images.
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There is a great peer reviewed paper called "What happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun" written by Dr. Richard L Smith.
oddly over the whole 42 pages the Vandals are mentioned yet Phoenicians aren't
.
what's up with these Libyans?_______________________________________^^^^ You sometimes see them portrayed as reddish brown color and straight long hair but there are also many with a yellowish biege color like this and it's 3000 years ago around 1150 BC.
they look like berbers, in many cases depicted as much lighter than Egyptians
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posted
Here is the visual(pic) aid for those who need it. MtDNA V the sibling of H. is oldest in the Saharawis and other Berbers. HV, the upstream clade is highest in Berber notably the Saharawis also. Saharawis also carry the highest percentage of Sub-Saharan lineage of Berbers. They carry the highest frequency of Cameroonian R-V88.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
typical xyyman doctored chart with no source link
Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.
Ann Hum Genet. 2004 May;68(Pt 3):222-33. Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Plaza S, Calafell F, Ben
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PLOS Genetics 2012
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,
We used the Saharawi as our proxy Maghrebi population, since the high relatedness in the Tunisian samples is likely to cause reduced ability to infer Maghrebi tracts in more diverse populations. Our sample of Tunisian Berbers retains the highest amount of Maghrebi ancestry, without substantial evidence of admixture with sub-Saharan, European or Near Eastern populations.
MDS component 3 differentiates populations thought to have a high degree of autochthonous ancestry [i.e. Tunisian Berbers and Saharawi] from populations outside of Africa. Interestingly, the MDS component 3 appears to be largely independent of the amount of sub-Saharan ancestry [Figure 2B] and North Africans are dispersed along the MDS component 3 axis, with the Tunisian Berbers occupying the extreme end of this gradient.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Haplogroup V is a relatively rare mtDNA haplogroup found in approximately 4% of native Europeans.[4] Its highest concentration is among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia (approximately 59%), where its divergence time is estimated at 7600 YBP (years before present). It has been found at approximately 10% among the Maris of the Volga-Ural region, leading to the suggestion that this region might be the source of the V among the Saami.[5]
Haplogroup V is also found at higher than average levels in Cantabrian people (15%)[6] of northern Iberia, and somewhat lower in nearby Basque people (10.4%).[7] It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia
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A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia
Published online 2005 March 24. PMCID: PMC1199377 Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1 Maria Pala,1 Anna Olivieri,1 Simona Fornarino,1 Chiara Magri,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Nora Babudri,3 A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,4 Ornella Semino,1 and Antonio Torroni1 Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a)—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al.Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The whole of central and south Iberia, Corsica, Sardinaia, the Apennine & Balkan peninsulas, and Anatolia along with littoral North Africa from Morocco to Tunisia was one big refugium.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,
Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Simon Gravel, Wei Wang Abra Brisbin. Jake K. Byrnes, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid,Pierre A. Zalloua,
Abstract
North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data [730,000 sites] from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago [approximately 1,200 ya]; a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago [approximately 750 ya]. Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa.
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^^^ It doesn't matter if you agree with the hypothesis. They are talking about 12,000 yeras ago, well before "historical data" in the region.
It is prehistoric, so this is where genetics and archaeology comes in.
The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–
This is far before history, It's prehistoric, Reality doesn't start when somebody first writes something down or you happen to find some ancient writing.
Anyway even the Egyptians record Asiatics with straight hair and skin lighter than theirs, non-Africans in North Africa further back than 1100 AD.
In fact further back than 1100 BC !
These are part of the root of the berbers [/QB]
Hi there,
I am going to ask you the same as before.
Where are the site scenes of these / those remains, you are claiming, to have come back from Eurasia?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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They are said to have E-M81 frequencies of over 80% Y DNA
There is no way of knowing if he has this level of M81
Suppose he does.
It is possible that E-M81 produces a person that has features that people might think look more similar to Europeans than other Africans even though it might be a completely African haplogroup. I'm not sure about this. Also the hair. Is E-M81 associated with afro kinky hair or another type of hair or cannot be correlated to hair. I don't know
Therefore if you look at the person above and ask "does he look African? " and someone says "no" or "half" they have to justify it, why not.
Hmmmmmm
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: True, the mean frequency of M81 in North Africa is 42% not 100% Notably the Siwa are only 1.1% M81
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.
Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages
Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia
Lioness, beginning to understand what your saying Euros DO have more E M81.
When you look at some North Africans, Some look like Euros then you realize that E M81 is an majority European gene (there is a answer on both sides of the coin, sometimes both answers are right or wrong or one side is right and the other wrong)
What separates A person like Zinedine Zidane from Zarkhozy?
M81 is a unique African haplogroup not believed to have originated in Europe. It's frequenices are very high in the Mahgreb but moderate to low in Europe and Sub Saharan Africa
This is way too funny.
As a matter of fact West Saharans have the highest frequency of E-M81. Which historically logical. It was already posted and explained only one month ago.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Haplogroup V is a relatively rare mtDNA haplogroup found in approximately 4% of native Europeans.[4] Its highest concentration is among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia (approximately 59%), where its divergence time is estimated at 7600 YBP (years before present). It has been found at approximately 10% among the Maris of the Volga-Ural region, leading to the suggestion that this region might be the source of the V among the Saami.[5]
Haplogroup V is also found at higher than average levels in Cantabrian people (15%)[6] of northern Iberia, and somewhat lower in nearby Basque people (10.4%).[7] It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia
___________________________________
A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia
Published online 2005 March 24. PMCID: PMC1199377 Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1 Maria Pala,1 Anna Olivieri,1 Simona Fornarino,1 Chiara Magri,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Nora Babudri,3 A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,4 Ornella Semino,1 and Antonio Torroni1 Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a)—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al.Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
The whole of central and south Iberia, Corsica, Sardinaia, the Apennine & Balkan peninsulas, and Anatolia along with littoral North Africa from Morocco to Tunisia was one big refugium.
[/QB]
You and the author completely forgot about Saami people being enslaved by the Vikings, and taken to Northwest Africa. This included many Central Europeans as well. Who historically relate to the Saami.
What a bummer.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
Prehistoric Iberia 2000, pp 125-162
Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You ignore history. LAgain, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
"Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. People of various backgrounds become berbers. Brown skinned straight haired Phoenicians from the Middle East and relatively darker Southern Europeans and Levantines have been coming into North Africa for much longer than you are claiming to times well before Christ. It is easily observed and recorded in Egyptian art. These people all mix together and with some indigenous Africans and are the berbers. "Berber" is a language and culture of nomads. It is by nature a mixture of people whose ancestors may have had different nationalities long ago. They are all called "berbers" because berber is a language and culture.
there is no language called Berber so wrong there. Berbers are not one homogenous group nor do they have common origin, wrong there again. Berbers are not necessarily nomad either.
As for the rest of what you are saying, its unsubstantiated supposition. I provided peer reviewed articles and you provide a barrage of googled photos of things, of which you can not prove their origin. You then follow up with a bunch of assumptions, which I can only assume have their origins in your fantasy? You typing your on educated opinions, doesn't make it a fact. You ignore my question and I will repeat it again, WHAT DID THE GREEKS SAY THE PHOENICIANS LOOKED LIKE? You in 2014 can never trump the account of people who were there during the events. [/QB]
It's funny how this lioness individual is making up stuff. I how no idea where it all is coming from.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.
Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81
posted
Tukuler you need to train Troll to edit. He posts for long posts of mine 4 in a row , that have already been read in order to make one or two sentence comments. This is what makes your thread or anybody else thread unpelasant to read, because he does this all the time. I don't need a hype man. Charlie Bass already scolded him about following me around like a puppy dog, in knee jerk mode, reacting to my every last word.
On the other hand that may have been the thing you were waiting for, back up, LOL
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.
Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81
-and don't give me any prose quotes, we have the numbers
You are posting from Wikipedia, you dumbass.
Such retard it's beyond anything.
asshole, it's from wikipedia with primarily article refereces listed and in my post
idiot because an article is quoted in wikipedia does not void the article becasue it's in wikipedia, I warned you already about being stupid, you are a troll trying to instigate hostility just like Charlie observed
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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