posted
Even though the mainstream tries to hide this data, I can post plenty of exceptions to the usual code of silence on this topic in the literature, which support the fact that even Russians and West Eurasian in general have substantial African admixture.
They need not have acquired all of this directly from Africans. In fact, most of it was probably brought there by mixed West Asian intermediaries. Fact is though, African-like features have been observed in Kurgan remains near southern Russia.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: New Developments in Siberian Archreology
By CHESTER S. CHARD
v. P. Alekseev discussed the racial types of the Altai-Sayan uplands during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. On the basis of geological and palreo climatic evidence, he feels that the initial human settlement of the area could have taken place as far back as the Lower Palreolithic (which in Soviet usage includes the Mousterian). Judging by the Afontova Gora II cranial fragment, the Upper Palreolithic population evidently must be assigned to the Mongoloid race. The Europeoid component begins to penetrate into certain areas during the Neolithic-especially into the southern part of the Krasnoyarsk Territory. Alekseev identifies in this latter area a morphologically Negroid type which would indicate contact with_ southern regions.
Russian Source Materials for the Racial History of Northern Eurasia Author(s): Chester S. ChardSource: Arctic Anthropology, Vol. 1, No. 1 (1962), pp. 117-125
Along with many Mongoloid features it displays prognathism and a wide nose. The latter confirm previous evidence from this area suggesting that there was a southern element (Negroid- Australoid) in the Neolithic population here which persisted into the Bronze Age.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
The Palaeolithic of the Urals and the Peopling of the North Author(s): O. N. Bader and Richard G. KleinSource: Arctic Anthropology, Vol. 3, No. 1 (1965), pp. 77-90
In the Holocene, when the continental glacier disappeared from the north and the immediate consequences of the glaciations were overcome, ancient Mesolithic hunters of the region of the Urals settled in the peri-Arctic territory leaving traces of their stay even in the Bol'shezemel'skaia tundra (Chernov 1948). In the region of the Urals, as apparently in the forested zone of Siberia, the transition to the Mesolithic was accomplished by macrolithic tool users (Golii Kamen1 near Nizhnii Tagil) and only later, as the consequences of glaciation were gradually overcome and the landscape zones were displaced to the north, were the Urals settled on both flanks by people with a well-developed microlithic technique (Bader I960). These people came from the south - from the Ponto-Caspian region. This southern wave probably strengthened the Europoid element in the Urals and possibly brought with it an attenuated Negroid type which later is found west of the Urals in the late Neolithic (Gavrilovka), in the Bronze Age (the Algashinskii burial ground of the Abashevo culture), and even in the Iron Age (the Mari burial grounds).
posted
^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I'm presenting analysis of raw data that can be used to confirm or refute the premise Berbers are primarily not African.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47% African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless. [/QB]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Neolithic and Bronze Age are not in the Stone Ages, illiterate, hatin' ass troll. A troll who needs 5 thread pages to present a coherent case is lecturing me about what is and isn't "proper analysis".
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
Neolithic and Bronze is not Palaeolithic, hatin' ass troll.
To Swenet a troll is a person that points out prehistoric morphology, remains at some specific site and a scientists interpretation as "Negroid" is irrelevant to the DNA of contemporary populations over the whole of Russia, and who do not carry these traits, Paleolithic, Neolithic or Bronze doesn't matter
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Of course you're a troll. First of all, I said that most of that ancestry can be explained by West Asian intermediaries, and secondly, you dumbass, the skeletal evidence builds a multi-disciplinary case using multiple facets of anthropology. These "negroid" traits are found in formative European/ Russian populations in a time which leads up to our common era. How could that be "irrelevant"? Your brains must be barely functioning to conjure up such a bummy knee-jerk objection and be convinced that it has currency in the real world.
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quote: Orginally posted by the lioness, This guy thinks modern Russians of 2014 are 25% black
Where did I say these people would have been what you call black, and where did I say that I necessarily stand by that exact percentage, you dumbass, illiterate, not knowing the difference between Bronze and Stone Age, troll?
For someone who keeps reciting my posts to provoke a reaction from alTakruri, you sure are a hopelessly dumbfounded wreck. Others will always need to repeat themselves a million times over, because you don't understand anything unless it involves colourful pictures and baby-talk. Why are you even on an anthropology forum when you clearly don't understand sh!t, unless someone baby feeds it to you.
My actual post (which, BTW, wasn't directed to you since your dumbass reply to my post a couple of days ago turned me off):
quote: Originally posted by Swenet: When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47% African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
quote:Estimates of divergence times between European–African and East Asian–African populations are inconsistent with its simplest manifestation: a single dispersal from the continent followed by a split into Western and Eastern Eurasian branches. Rather, population divergence times are consistent with substantial ancient gene flow to the proto-European population after its divergence with proto-East Asians, suggesting distinct, early dispersals of modern H. sapiens from Africa.
The funny thing is, trolls can do absolutely nothing about these rock hard statistical analyses, except throw tantrums and mask their dogmatic knee-jerk objections in semi scientific language. Like this:
quote: Originally posted by the Lioness,: ^ That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits are not a form of argumentation in considering the DNA of contemporary Russians
posted
LOL! As we can all see, even though biology has aceepted (for the most part) that AMH evolved in Africa and then spread to the rest of the world, Euroclowns still have to play games with the data. Hence, even though most of these studies and reports about E3 and its children show CLEARLY that Europe has substantial genetic mixture from Africa, these clowns are choosing to ignore that and focus on any little scrap of data, no matter how slim to play up so-called European lineages in Africa, even though most of that is dubious. Yet they are silent far more substantial evidence of wholesale African lineages moving into Europe.
quote: In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78\ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
This data makes it clear that that the African lineages E3b and its descendants in Europe are evidence of large scale African movements into Europe and the Balkans. Yet these clowns don't talk about that as opposed to trying to make E3b lineages SOMEHOW Eurasian. These people are sick and twisted.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: LOL! As we can all see, even though biology has aceepted (for the most part) that AMH evolved in Africa and then spread to the rest of the world, Euroclowns still have to play games with the data. Hence, even though most of these studies and reports about E3 and its children show CLEARLY that Europe has substantial genetic mixture from Africa, these clowns are choosing to ignore that and focus on any little scrap of data, no matter how slim to play up so-called European lineages in Africa, even though most of that is dubious. Yet they are silent far more substantial evidence of wholesale African lineages moving into Europe.
quote: In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78\ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
This data makes it clear that that the African lineages E3b and its descendants in Europe are evidence of large scale African movements into Europe and the Balkans. Yet these clowns don't talk about that as opposed to trying to make E3b lineages SOMEHOW Eurasian. These people are sick and twisted.
Man Doug shouldn't be so surprised, realized how sick and twisted these people are from there confusing e1b1b1b1ba bullshit. Just gotta keep doing what you do best, Hurting them with revelation.
mena, and lioness are real iffy people especially that mena guy/girl never took what he posted as serious yet some like Zarahan were ignored when they outed menas "pro Africa" nonsense.
What hinted me was his posting of an black mannequin being sat on by an white woman. If that don't ring bells nothing will.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Again Swenet comes back with the usual euronut and undercover eurasian nut trickery of trying to divide Africans and use modern North Africans and modern East Africans as proxy populations for Eurasian.
Then he will try to say Ancient Egyptians are closer to those modern North Africans (like modern Egyptians, Berbers) or East Africans population than to modern West Africans or Great Lakes and Bantu populations. Very typical euronut move.
But that's ridiculous because Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, etc) are not close to each other only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically.
Most African people, the larger part of our ancestry, share a common origin pre-dating the formation of the AE state but postdating the main OOA migration.
There's also have been a lot of admixture between various Africans populations (and non-African to a lower degree due to distance) during history. For example, E-P2(PN2) carriers have their ancient origin in Eastern Africa but can be seen all over Africa in modern time. Those PN2 carriers also admixed with other African populations like other E and A and B carriers.
As I demonstrated a lot of time on this forum, African populations, including Ancient Egyptians, are genetically close to each other the same way Europeans, Native Americans, East Asians populations are genetically close to each other respectively due to their common origin and admixture.
We can see it on this genetic distance tree for example.
Clearly we can see that so-called sub-Saharan Africans cluster together in term of genetic distance, they form their own genetic family, and includes Central, Horn, West, Southern and Great Lakes Africans.
Even Horn Africans for example, which Euronut often try to use as a proxy Eurasian population because of their ancient and recent admixture with neighboring Eurasian populations, often carries the PN2/P2 haplogroups which is now widespread in Africa. So Horn Africans populations cluster both on the uni-parental line and autosomal DNA (see graph above) with other African populations. There's both differentiation and unity between various African populations. Which is true to some degree to humans in general.
I will say it again: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically. Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I will say it again: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I see the Lioness has run amok with Arredi bullshit (data that isn't in Arredi 2004), strawmanning primarily African as primarily black (after "she" practically coined the term primarily African), trying to lose the subject going off topic to black Russians.
No shame in "her" game.
Time I pulled in the reins with this my final uniparentals study example.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
A good capsule of Badro's (2013, with Douaihy & Haber co-authors) data for our purposes are Tables TS3 & T1.
These excerpts from TS3 & T1 focus on Morocco, Tunisia, Libyan Sahara, Libya, and Egypt population frequencies where Badro found select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
I've excluded Burkinabe Twareg. Though Imazighen they are not located in any recognized part of Tamazgha. They live in a Gnawa country that I can't fit into the Mediterranean Africa / former Berber speaking Africa / Magreb core region analyses.
Badro makes no mention of U6 so I can't say U6 is definetely included within Badro's U (probably so).
Above is Badro's Figure 1 and below is Figure S1. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Badro's
* all E-M35 ____ as African * M* HV H & U __ as western EurAsian * all R-M343 ___ as western EurAsian
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Badro's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
See TS1 and TS2 for sampling info and reports for their backgrounds.
Below are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each selected African nation and views of them as
* a Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core "horns of the Maghreb" subset.
Because the highest Med Afr freq 50.3 is less than 51 the first set supports Berbers not primarliy African. 2nd & 3rd sets support Berbers are primarily African.
Badro's study is global with a focus on the region composed of Levant/Iraq/Arabia for affinities with Africa or Europe. I can't recall an ES thread on it. If not there should be a new thread to present and comment on it.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Why is it always the loudest super trolls who have the least citations in their posts? Its like their super troll status and big ass mouth is inversely correlated to the paucity of scientific reports in their posts. The more they're fuming out their ass, and swear they're onto to something, the more devoid of scientific references their posts are going to be.
Genetic substructure in ancient Africa is biggest nightmare for ES' supertrolls, but for different reasons. For super trolls like Lioness, it complicates things because substructure in Africa means African ancestry in Eurasia will go undetected, which means it will upset her confused, one-sided ideas about admixed Africans. For other super trolls like Amun-Ra the Ultimate, it means he won't get to relish in his retarded pan African dogmas, where Africans are supposed to be one big happy (genetic) monolith. Anything which threathens this dogma, on which his perceived access to the prestige of African civilizations, self-worth and sense of importance are built, triggers a deep-seated, delusional sense of outrage in him, which compells him to rant about the genetic closeness of Africans to each other.
Don't know which is more pathethic. Probably the latter. ES is full of psychopatic characters who come here, not caring anything about science, but simply to get their jollies off. That's why you can get someone who has been posting here for four years, refer to the Neolithic and Bronze Age as "palaeolithic", IN THE SAME POST where they try to lecture someone about supposedly not adhering to scientific standards. SMH.
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posted
Swenet stop worrying about what I think and trying to bait me an Amun Ra. Respond to Tukular's data instead of fishing for an extremely boring curse ridden Explorer type marathon battle to satisfy some emotional need you have.
Turkuler proposes that North Africans are primarily African. I already conceeded on the previous page that if you add up the haplogroup frequencies the following is a reasonable conclusion:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
I can even say I was wrong and agrree with a premise and still people want to continue to take an opposing position, keep trying to drag me in, so that they feel like their life has meaning. The ancient Egyptians may have even been part berber, the berbers are primarily East African. same up from the South thing You put up an obscure 1965 article, nearly uncited in other literature, an article titled The Palaeolithic of the Urals and the Peopling of the North
which said people from the south strengthened a Europid element and possibly also brought in an attenuated Negroid type later in the Neolithic Probably the same thing with berbers and Egyptians they were attenuated Negroids, the type the Europids of Russia brought with
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Lyin'ass, I stopped talking to your dumbass days ago; it was you who re-engaged me. Nothing you and that other guy say interests me; you're walking zombies to me. Nothing to learn from, whatsoever. I'm simply calling the both of you out for the lyingass dogmatic assholes the both of you are.
Let's set the record straight, shall we? My previous post was a response to the following lyingass and/or deliberately confusion spreading (trolling) posts:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ok Ok , lets see Swenet's more accurate breakdown source
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: brought to you by Swenet productions
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: recap:
k=2
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: This guy thinks modern Russians of 2014 are 25% black
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Russians are 25% black ???
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: That is not proper analysis, paleolithic physical traits
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "Racial History of Northern Eurasia"
^^^ all of the sudden race is valid, negroid is valid
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Again Swenet comes back with the usual euronut and undercover eurasian nut trickery of trying to divide Africans and use modern North Africans and modern East Africans as proxy populations for Eurasian.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Then he will try to say Ancient Egyptians are closer to those modern North Africans (like modern Egyptians, Berbers) or East Africans population than to modern West Africans or Great Lakes and Bantu populations.
posted
Good video showing Tuareg Berbers. An example of the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: I don't think you were able to parse what I wrote. It all has to with desert and Sahel raiders like the Touareg attacking villages and kidnapping individuals whom they then use as lower caste/servant/slave workers. It is on this basis that the idea of dominant group and subordinate group arises. The people who were usually kidnapped lived in villages and practiced agriculture of some sorts. The Touareg are nomadic people living in movable tents which carry with them as they trek from place. Many of the original Touareg groups are of lighter complexion while those kidnapped were usually darker. Hence in the simple-minded brains of the Touareg dark pigmentation, as is the case with the vast majority of Malians is associated with subordination.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Good video showing Tuareg Berbers. An example of the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by lamin responding to TypeZeiss:
It all has to with desert and Sahel raiders like the Touareg attacking villages and kidnapping individuals whom they then use as lower caste/servant/slave workers. It is on this basis that the idea of dominant group and subordinate group arises. The people who were usually kidnapped lived in villages and practiced agriculture of some sorts. The Touareg are nomadic people living in movable tents which carry with them as they trek from place. Many of the original Touareg groups are of lighter complexion while those kidnapped were usually darker. Hence in the simple-minded brains of the Touareg dark pigmentation, as is the case with the vast majority of Malians is associated with subordination.
. Reality is reality whether we like it or not.
A scene common enough to Twareg and Maure alike.
Whether both are black is a moot point but one hardly sees the roles reversed.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Good video showing Tuareg Berbers. An example of the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
And here I thought Berber language and culture originated with sedentary cultivators like those of the oases and the Atlas?
Berber languages as far as I can recall originated in East Africa and traveled towards the Wast via movements of people from in and the Sudanese/Upper Egyptian Nile to North Africa from the ancestors of the modern Beja Nomads. And the Tuareg are indigenous Nomadic Saharan Africans speaking and writing the oldest variant of Berber languages known: Tamashek. Hardly a case for origins among "settled" populations, given this language moved from East to West across the vast Sahara. Their written language, Tifinagh is descended directly from Libyco Berber. The closest related scripts to Libyco Berber and tifinagh are Ge'ez and South Arabian.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel 2010
Luísa Pereira,1,2 Viktor Černư,3,*
Abstract The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ~9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ~10000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ~6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area
The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.
Among the first African mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences were those from data sets3, 4 obtained mostly from Tuareg living in Niger and Nigeria, and which revealed a rather sub-Saharan affinity of their population. More recently, however, a study based on 129 Tuareg samples from two villages of the Libyan Fezzan, stressed a high frequency but concomitant low diversity of the West Eurasian component, bearing only haplogroups H1, V and M1. The sub-Saharan component of the Libyan Tuareg was more diversified but predominantly represented by only two haplogroups (L2a1 and L0a1a). The Tuareg population from Libya was homogenous with very low estimates of haplotype diversity suggesting high genetic drift.5
The above-mentioned studies have thus revealed a dual influence in the genetic make-up of this African people. In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.
Subjects
The biological samples (buccal swabs) were obtained from three different groups of self-identified Tuareg (90 unrelated individuals in total). One population sample (n=38) was secured in Burkina Faso around the village Gorom-Gorom (further referred to as TGor). The second sample (n=31) was taken in the Republic of Niger in the vicinity of Tanut (TTan). The third sample (n=21) was collected in Mali near Gossi (TGos). The samples from Mali and Burkina Faso are geographically relatively close to each other as they are located within the bend of the Niger River, whereas the sample collected in the central part of the Republic of Niger is located some 1500km eastward (Figure 1). The field sampling was undertaken with the collaboration of local Tuareg assistants. Of these 90 healthy and unrelated individuals, 47 were male and 43 were female. Oral informed consent was obtained from all participants in the study and research permits were obtained from the Ministries of Education and/or Health in all the three countries.
mtDNA
A total of 48% of the mtDNA haplotypes observed in the Tuareg populations could be ascribed to sub-Saharan haplogroups. Another 39%, however, were of West Eurasian ancestry (non-L types in Table 1), which is a substantial proportion considering the sub-Saharan geographical location. In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50–75% in the northernmost locations.34 The Tuareg's neighbours, however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa Arabs from North-eastern Nigeria, 7% in the Buduma from South-eastern Niger and 6% in the Kanuri from North-eastern Nigeria).35 The remaining 13% of Tuareg haplotypes belong to the typical East African haplogroup M1.
Furthermore, we noticed some differences in the distribution of West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups between Tuareg groups. Most of the West Eurasian haplogroups (30 out of 35 sequences, amounting to 6 out of 9 HVS-I haplotypes) and the East African M1 (11 out12 sequences but amounting to only 2 out of 3 HVS-I haplotypes) are observed in the two Tuareg populations – TGos and TGor – located within the bend of the Niger. Tuareg from the Republic of Niger, TTan, have much higher proportion of sub-Saharan (81%) haplogroups than of West Eurasian (16%) and East African (3%) ones. These differences in haplogroup distribution led to statistically significant genetic distances when comparing HVS-I haplotypes between Tuareg from Mali (TGos) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.048; unadjusted P-value=0.009), as well as Tuareg from Burkina Faso (TGor) with those from the Republic of Niger (TTan) (FST=0.064; unadjusted P-value=0.000), whereas Tuareg from Mali (TGos) and from Burkina Faso (TGor) are not statistically different (FST=0.012; unadjusted P-value=0.234). Similarly, analysis of MDS based on FST distances and using a large database of West Eurasian and African mtDNA sequences has shown a very good separation of the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian-North African gene pools (Figure 2). Only some East African populations are closer to the West Eurasian samples, respectively, to the North African populations analysed here. This picture is a good representation of FST values as the normalized raw stress is very low (0.01165). However, the analysed Tuareg populations are divided between two gene pools: like the sample from Libya,5 the groups located within the bend of Niger (TGor and TGos) fall into the West Eurasian gene pool, whereas the Tuareg from the Republic of Niger (TTan) and the Tuareg sample from the Watson's data set3, 4 are permeated by the sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool.
The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe7, 10, 17, 26, 29, 36 and most probably North Africa30, 31 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15000–13000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (Supplementary Material SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (Supplementary Material SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (Supplementary Material SM5D).
Both H1 and H3 commonly display rather low diversity in the D-loop region, but the Tuareg haplotypes belonging to haplogroup V have a specific diagnostic mutation – the transition at position 16234. All the Tuareg V haplotype samples collected in Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger (three haplotypes observed in 11 individuals) bear this mutation together with the defining substitution at position 16298, This polymorphism is present in two of the five V haplotypes observed in the recently published Libyan Tuaregs.5 This fact seems to point to a founder effect in haplogroup V occurring in our southern Tuareg population; the further presence of two other polymorphisms in two V samples (substitutions at positions 16189 and 16293) allows a very preliminary estimation for the Time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) of this Tuareg V sub-lineage at around 3600±2600 years ago or at a maximum of 8800 years ago if using a 95% confidence interval (see Supplementary Material SM6 for the network) Another very interesting characteristic of the West Eurasian mtDNA pool in the Tuareg population as a whole (including Watson's and Ottoni's data sets) is the total absence of so-called Neolithic haplogroups derived from the branch JT, which are otherwise common in Near Eastern, North African, Mediterranean and even some East African populations. The virtual absence of these lineages in the Tuareg is statistically significant when comparing the frequency of these lineages in Morocco34 (18% unadjusted P-value=0.000), Tunisia30 (12% unadjusted P-value=0.000) and Egypt37 (29% unadjusted P-value=0.000). Notice also the absence of the haplogroup U6, which is present mainly in Berbers but also in several others North African groups.13, 16, 38
The sub-Saharan mtDNA pool of the Tuareg is composed of various lineages from the major L-type haplogroups including: 2.3% of L0; 14.0% of L1; 58.1% of L2; 23.3% L3; and 2.3% of L4. We assayed to search for haplotype matches in an extensive database of 7211 individuals from all over Africa (Table 2). The most ancient lineages L0a1a and L1c, characteristic of east/southeast Africa13 and the Pygmies,39 respectively, were each observed in only one individual. The highly frequent African haplogroup L2, and specifically its dominant clade L2a, is also dominant in Tuareg – it is probable that some branches of L2a were involved in the Bantu expansion towards the African south13, 40 and many matches are observed for these haplotypes all over the continent. Curiously, the two L2a lineages having substitutions at positions 16192 and 16193, respectively, have no match in Africa. As far as the L3 macrohaplogroup is concerned, the two L3b haplotypes observed in the Tuareg are widespread throughout the continent, but one of the L3f1 haplotypes (T47 in Table 1) has no matches. Both are included in the L3f1 sub-haplogroup, which is quite frequent and widespread, and which very probably originated in East Africa. No L3f3, a typical marker of the Chadic migration,41 has been observed in the Tuareg.
In summary, the matches between Tuareg sub-Saharan haplotypes and the diverse African regions were, after correcting for the size for each region, 5.6% with Africa-Central; 4.3% with Africa-East; 3.4% with Africa-North; 1.1% with Africa-South; 4.3% with Africa-southeast; 4.5% with Africa-southwest; 12.7% with Africa-West; and 13.4% with Africa-westcentral. The West Africa or West-Central African lineages thus are clearly dominant in the extant Tuareg.
The influence of East Africa in the Tuareg can be investigated more directly through haplogroup M1.16 As concerns the finer classification of Tuareg M1 haplotypes, two of them (5 sequences out of 12) belong to M1b, which has a clear Mediterranean distribution, pointing to North Africa as its most probable gateway to the Tuareg. This finding is inconsistent with the absence of U6, which is believed to have entered Africa together with M1 in a back migration from western Eurasia around 45000 years ago. The time estimate for M1b, based on the coding region, is 23400±5600 years,16 placing its origin in the Early Upper Palaeolithic. More promising in ascertaining Eastern African origin is another haplotype observed in seven Tuareg individuals from Burkina Faso belonging to haplogroup M1a, which, though being considered dominant in East Africa42 also spread to the Mediterranean, and which has a total age of 28800±4900 years.16 We performed the complete sequencing of three individuals, which despite not displaying any difference at HVS-I and HVS-II, might present some substitutions in the coding region, allowing for a better estimate of a TMRCA. These three samples, however, did not bear any difference even when sequencing the complete genome. Nonetheless, when taken together with the other M1a2a individuals (Figure 3) reported in Olivieri et al16 (sample 1 in Figure 3, accession number EF060335; sample 2, accession number EF060336), González et al43 (sample 3; accession number DQ779927) and Maca-Meyer et al44 (sample 4; accession number AF381984) allowed an age estimation for this sub-haplogroup at 8000±2400-years old based on diversity in the coding region. We checked the TMRCA using Soares et al26 mutations rates for the entire molecule and for the synonymous substitutions, obtaining, respectively, the following concordant dates: 10400±2300 and 10200±3400. Notice, however, that all the other four M1a2a complete sequences were observed in the Mediterranean region and in Table 2 the HVS-I motif observed in Tuareg has 10 perfect matches in the Africa-North data set and one in Africa-westcentral.
Y DNA
From the 20 branches of the Y chromosome tree, which could be discriminated by the analyses performed, only 7 were observed in our Tuareg population sample (Supplementary Material SM7). Again, from this perspective of Y chromosome diversity, TTan is closer to sub-Saharan populations than the other two Tuareg populations, presenting 5.6% of the old AB lineages and 44.4% of E1b1a, whereas TGor and TGos have, respectively, 16.7 and 9.1% of E1b1a. Curiously, TTan also presents the highest frequency (33.3%) of West Eurasian R1b lineages whereas TGor presents only 5.6% of lineage K* (xO,P), and TGos presents none. There were no instances of the Eurasian J haplogroup in the Tuareg, which is otherwise frequent in North Africa (an average of 20% see Arredi et al45), and attains the highest frequency in the Middle East (around 50% see Semino et al)46.
The dominant haplogroup in TGor (77.8%) and TGos (81.8%) is E1b1b1b, which has a much lower frequency in TTan (11.1%). This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.45 Arredi et al45 dated this haplogroup in North Africa from 2800 to 9800 YBP, associating its expansion with the Neolithic demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
The low level of diversity attained in the Tuareg populations (see Supplementary Material SM8) is consistent with a model of population constancy, although it can also be due in part to the ascertainment bias in the selection of a few Y-SNPs. Haplotype diversities and mean number of pairwise differences were very low in TGor and TGos, being among the lowest values observed in many populations, but TTan showed much higher levels of diversity.
MDS of FST distances based on available Y-SNP West Eurasian and African population data sets shows, as in the case of mtDNA, separation of the West Eurasian-North African and sub-Saharan populations (Figure 4). A certain separation between the Iberian and Near Eastern groups can be explained by the absence of samples from the Central Mediterranean for the Y-NRY data set. However, though the Tuareg groups from the Niger bend (TGor and TGos) belong clearly on the West Eurasian side, the Tuareg from central Niger lean towards sub-Saharan variability.
Discussion
The Tuareg have a nomadic lifestyle and according to some demographic reports they show reduced fertility in comparison with their neighbours.47, 48, 49 The data observed here for mtDNA and Y-SNP diversities are concordant with those independent reports, especially for the Tuareg living within the bend of the Niger.
The overall West Eurasian mtDNA gene pool in the Tuareg population as a whole (H1, H3 and V) seems to favour a North African heritage.50 The only exception is the absence of the otherwise rare U5b that might have rather come to Africa through the Near East, and then drifted to higher frequencies only in some isolated populations such as in the Egyptian oasis Siwa.51 The absence of U6 can further be explained by genetic drift during the expansion of this haplogroup within North Africa.51 Note that U6 was observed at low frequencies in several population groups from the Chad Basin, such as in the Nilo-Saharan Kanuri and the Afro-Asiatic Masa.35
Relationships with the peoples of Eastern Sudan (the Beja) as pointed to by the study of classical genetic markers2 cannot yet be disregarded here as there is still no mtDNA of the Beja people available for study. However, according to historical reports, the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula52 and the West Eurasian mtDNA lineages seen in the Tuareg have a rather Iberian affiliation in the post-LGM, and probably expanded to North Africa first.30, 31 The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ~9000 and ~3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16234 (3600 years ago).
The dates obtained from the genetic data coincide well with climatic changes in the Sahara, which resulted in repopulation during the first half of the Holocene when by ~10000 YBP (the Holocene climatic optimum) humid conditions and greening were established. The climatic optimum lasted until ~6000 YBP, when the shift towards more permanent aridity occurred, culminating with the formation of the current Sahara desert. This desertification could have entrapped Tuareg populations coming from North Africa to the Sahel belt together with other pastoralists such as the Chadic speaking peoples41 coming from East Africa and Fulani nomads6 coming from West Africa. In fact, by performing complete mtDNA sequencing of the L3f3 lineage, specific for Chadic-speaking groups of the Chad Basin, Černư et al41 estimated a local demographic expansion during the Holocene period at about 8000±2500 YBP. No doubt all populations arriving to the Sahel were further enriched by various admixtures of many other sub-Saharan lineages, an effect even more pronounced in the Chadic groups who adopted a sedentary lifestyle soon after their arrival to the fertile Chad Basin than in the Tuareg who remain nomadic until present.
It is curious that, at least for the Tuareg maternal gene pool, there are no mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion from the Near East despite being present in considerable frequencies in other North African populations. For example, the conservation of the high frequency and remarkable internal variability of T1 haplotypes within the distant and relatively isolated Egyptian oasis of el-Hayez led to an estimation of local expansion at around 5138±3633 YBP.37 There are no indications yet of the ages of local expansions in the more central and western regions of North Africa, which could contribute further insights for its absence in the Tuareg population as a whole.
Interestingly, for the Y chromosome, the dominant haplogroup in North Africa as well as the Tuareg is E1b1b1b. This haplogroup was associated with Neolithic diffusion in North Africa, with an age estimation of 2800–9800 YBP,45 but the lower resolution of the Y chromosome tree did not allow us to investigate this issue further. Nonetheless, disregarding whether they are in fact Neolithic, the ages for the mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages of North African origin observed in southern Tuareg are consistent with the same period, between 9000 and 3000 years ago.
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by lamin responding to TypeZeiss:
It all has to with desert and Sahel raiders like the Touareg attacking villages and kidnapping individuals whom they then use as lower caste/servant/slave workers. It is on this basis that the idea of dominant group and subordinate group arises. The people who were usually kidnapped lived in villages and practiced agriculture of some sorts. The Touareg are nomadic people living in movable tents which carry with them as they trek from place. Many of the original Touareg groups are of lighter complexion while those kidnapped were usually darker. Hence in the simple-minded brains of the Touareg dark pigmentation, as is the case with the vast majority of Malians is associated with subordination.
. Reality is reality whether we like it or not.
A scene common enough to Twareg and Maure alike.
Whether both are black is a moot point but one hardly sees the roles reversed.
Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Berber languages as far as I can recall originated in East Africa and traveled towards the Wast via movements of people from in and the Sudanese/Upper Egyptian Nile to North Africa from the ancestors of the modern Beja Nomads. And the Tuareg are indigenous Nomadic Saharan Africans speaking and writing the oldest variant of Berber languages known: Tamashek. Hardly a case for origins among "settled" populations, given this language moved from East to West across the vast Sahara. Their written language, Tifinagh is descended directly from Libyco Berber. The closest related scripts to Libyco Berber and tifinagh are Ge'ez and South Arabian.
This is false. Berber languages are not related to Ge'ez.
The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.
The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
posted
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
..
The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
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I'm beginning to heed your teachings more and more Dr. Winters.
Obenga is an linguist, why would he lie about this but laymens words are taken as truth?
Also Berbers HAD to of been Vandals if they were ruled for 400 years just because you can't really control areas without 1. Language and 2. Population movements.
Look at Canada the USA and Australia these countries were VERY different before the coming of euros who transformed it into another britain .
Anyone claiming that the Vandals AND the white slave trade had no impact on North Africa are deluding themselves.
Look at berber dress and german dress, and the indeginous dress of the people that is called Sami. ITS ALL THE SAME.
I respect Doug etc but this isnt coincidence. I mean how can you be ignorant to these facts??
I believe now that there is no afroasiatic language at all and its forced together just to group Egypt away from the rest of Africa or to explain why Egypt is in Africa and NOT in Europe...Game of bullshit played and propped up by euros and uncle toms like gates etc.
What needs to be identified is what the garamante spoke before the coming of the sea people and why the euros are desperate to not even try African languages in there pathetic attempts at deciphering the language of ancient crete.
We know from the pics the egyptians had, that the cretes were basically tuaregs or garamantes:
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Clyde you seem to be ignoring berber/Tuareg DNA
many seem to along around 50/50 African/Eurasian some a little more African some a little more Eurasian
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
the ancient African nomadic tradition of North Africa from which Berber Language and culture originates.
And here I thought Berber language and culture originated with sedentary cultivators like those of the oases and the Atlas?
Berber languages as far as I can recall originated in East Africa and traveled towards the Wast via movements of people from in and the Sudanese/Upper Egyptian Nile to North Africa from the ancestors of the modern Beja Nomads. And the Tuareg are indigenous Nomadic Saharan Africans speaking and writing the oldest variant of Berber languages known: Tamashek. Hardly a case for origins among "settled" populations, given this language moved from East to West across the vast Sahara. Their written language, Tifinagh is descended directly from Libyco Berber. The closest related scripts to Libyco Berber and tifinagh are Ge'ez and South Arabian.
I have it there were no Twareg until way after Neolithic time. Twareg are not monolithic in origin. Some who became Twareg moved south from Tripolitania and/or Tunisia. The aristocrat Twareg claim Tafilalet Morocco as point of origin. Certain peoples of Tassili were already there when subdued by incoming proto-Twareg adopting their culture when they became vassal clans.
Then there's the sedentary banu Tanamak the apparent founders of Essuq Tademekkat. They too are one component of the Kel Tamasheq people.
I only saw a weak reference for a Beja connection made by Cavilli-Sforza.
If name origins mean anything and Targui is indeed the name Twareg were first known by then they were gardeners before the camel and then the Arab and their adopting predatory ways.
Of course there's no doubt of their E Afr E-M81 or "Berber" language affiliation though Tifinagh is not Libyco-Berber as you noted.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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My problem with analyzing language is you can not ignore all of the history and inputs. For example we know MILLIONS of Europeans slaves were introduced into North Africa from 700AD to 1800AD. That in no small way could have had a lasting affect on the languages in the region.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
Germans
.
These women are Berber. They are not Twareg. They have nothing of the German about themselves at all.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by KING: I'm beginning to heed your teachings more and more Dr. Winters.
Obenga is an linguist, why would he lie about this but laymens words are taken as truth?
Also Berbers HAD to of been Vandals if they were ruled for 400 years just because you can't really control areas without 1. Language and 2. Population movements.
Look at Canada the USA and Australia these countries were VERY different before the coming of euros who transformed it into another britain .
Anyone claiming that the Vandals AND the white slave trade had no impact on North Africa are deluding themselves.
Look at berber dress and german dress, and the indeginous dress of the people that is called Sami. ITS ALL THE SAME.
I respect Doug etc but this isnt coincidence. I mean how can you be ignorant to these facts??
I believe now that there is no afroasiatic language at all and its forced together just to group Egypt away from the rest of Africa or to explain why Egypt is in Africa and NOT in Europe
.
Yes, there is a lot to Dr. Winters writings, however please note the following.
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic. See the Theophile Obenga & Negro-Egyptien thread. In particular page through it and read Sabalour's translation of Obenga on Berber language.
Vandals did not rule for 400 years but just ~100 years. They weren't all that numerous nor was their realm very widespread in regards to the entire range of "Berber" territory not to mention the resistance to foreign rule everywhere but near the coast. I first made that clear back in 2006 but expanded on it in the Berber languages are European thread. In the end the Vandals who weren't conscripted into the Byzantine Roman army holed up in just one city in Algeria.
All Berbers do not dress alike. Yes there are similarities between some Berber women's clothing and some central and eastern European peoples. This is mostly right on the coast. Most Berber women's costume is one of local design. This is expected of a people who are of deep local roots but heavily admixed by foreigners both continental and non-continental.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by KING: I'm beginning to heed your teachings more and more Dr. Winters.
Obenga is an linguist, why would he lie about this but laymens words are taken as truth?
Also Berbers HAD to of been Vandals if they were ruled for 400 years just because you can't really control areas without 1. Language and 2. Population movements.
Look at Canada the USA and Australia these countries were VERY different before the coming of euros who transformed it into another britain .
Anyone claiming that the Vandals AND the white slave trade had no impact on North Africa are deluding themselves.
Look at berber dress and german dress, and the indeginous dress of the people that is called Sami. ITS ALL THE SAME.
I respect Doug etc but this isnt coincidence. I mean how can you be ignorant to these facts??
I believe now that there is no afroasiatic language at all and its forced together just to group Egypt away from the rest of Africa or to explain why Egypt is in Africa and NOT in Europe
.
Yes, there is a lot to Dr. Winters writings, however please note the following.
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic. See the Theophile Obenga & Negro-Egyptien thread. In particular page through it and read Sabalour's translation of Obenga on Berber language.
Vandals did not rule for 400 years but just ~100 years. They weren't all that numerous nor was their realm very widespread in regards to the entire range of "Berber" territory not to mention the resistance to foreign rule everywhere but near the coast. I first made that clear back in 2006 but expanded on it in the Berber languages are European thread. In the end the Vandals who weren't conscripted into the Byzantine Roman army holed up in just one city in Algeria.
All Berbers do not dress alike. Yes there are similarities between some Berber women's clothing and some central and eastern European peoples. This is mostly right on the coast. Most Berber women's costume is one of local design. This is expected of a people who are of deep local roots but heavily admixed by foreigners both continental and non-continental.
2 sides to every story.
Credit 2 you Takruri. If the Vandals only ruled for 100 years then definitely its harder(not impossible) to control a region.
I truly want to believe that berbers are a part of Africa but with all the things I hear and see on the net it seems they still have there colonial mentality...yet when they go to france the face the same **** as west Africans.
Then you have the freedom fighters of algeria that died to free their country from racist france yet we know how the North Africans view other africans.
its the lesser then sindrome that many berbers, euros etc like to shove down peoples throat. think there better then someone based on there color or culture or religion. They struggle to comprehend that calling people slaves and abeed is shining a light on how they view themselves and there own people. They were slaves in there own country called colonialism....Then they forget about the white slave trade where million white women were in North Africa...Yet the West Africans are abeeds???
Thats the kind of mentality that needs to be erased from peoples mind but as we see with many indians, its a struggle
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
LOL look at what happened in a 100 years of Europeans coming to America.In less than 40 years millions of native Americans were murdered. In North America what happened to the Black Native Americans and Amerinds who formerly lived in the North and Northeast and coastal regions of the U.S?
Don't fool yourselfa lot can happen in 100 years
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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My problem with analyzing language is you can not ignore all of the history and inputs. For example we know MILLIONS of Europeans slaves were introduced into North Africa from 700AD to 1800AD. That in no small way could have had a lasting affect on the languages in the region.
The“elite dominance” theory,proposes that wherein a small group of highly organized people dominates an existing population, usually mlitarily explains the origin of the Berbers. Due to the Vandal conquest of Northwest Africa German cultural influences and language were introduced to the region. Due to mating with the Black Natives the Berbers carry African genes.
The female slaves introduced by the Ottoman were usually Slavic speakers. We see little if any Slavic influences in the Berber languages so we know that a military force probably caused the rise of German in Berber languages since the Vandals dominated the indigenous population after their invansion of the region.
posted
all right found this Touareg propaganda vid where the poor tuareg are rejected by the counries.
No slaves or dark skinned tuaregs, just a vid crying to the euros for help. They must think by showing the lighter skinned tuareg people will feel pity or something:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic.
That's a lie and mischaracterization of Obenga's works. He doesn't relate Berber to other African languages from the Negro-Egyptian language phyla which include Niger-Kordofanian, Ancient Egyptian, Chadic, Cushitic and Nilo-Saharans.
He says:
quote: On a strictly linguistic basis, it must be clearly stated, following proper analysis, that berber languages are not semitic nor negro-egyptians. Hence, the berber languages form their own linguistic family, and are self-sustaining.
So Berber languages are unrelated to other Negro-Egyptian languages (beside through borrowing, also mentioned by Obenga).
If you take into account this aDNA study placing eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in the Taforalt (Maghreb) region around 12000BP. Eurasian haplogroups mostly from the Iberian region in Europe (now speaking latin languages such as Portuguese and Spanish). This suggest to me that the Berber languages is possibly the ancestral language spoken by some hunter-gatherers European ethnic groups in the ancient Iberian region. Later on, one of those "Iberian dialects" would take over the other Iberian/Berber dialects and later on again borrow some items from arabic, european and african languages (chadic, etc). Mostly arabic of course due to the process of arabisation/islamisation going on in North Africa since the arab conquests.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, Zulu, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically .
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.
The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
Germans
.
.
TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, Zulu, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically .
Apart from DNATribes gentetic matches how are Zulus close geographically, historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically to Egyptians ?
Posts: 42968 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient Egyptians and other African populations (like Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Afar, Dinka, Kongo, Dogon, Fulani, Zulu, etc) are close to each other not only geographically but also historically, archaeologically, culturally, linguistically, biologically and genetically .
Apart from DNATribes gentetic matches
It's the genetic profiles (DNA/autosomal STR) of Ancient Egyptian mummies tested thus far which match African populations. The BMJ study came to the same conclusion by stating the haplogroup of Ramses III to be E1b1a. A genetic haplogroup common among many African populations including the Zulu, Yoruba, Wolof, etc. Some internet blog also matched the 18th Dynasty mummies DNA profile with African populations. Admittedly not a lot of mummies have been tested thus far, but I can't ignore the results. Importantly we're talking about royalty so we can worry less about how representative this very small sample of ancient specimen is.
Many of my posts in this forum are about characterizing the Ancient Egyptian civilizations especially at it's foundation stage. It's easy to see the historic, archeological, cultural and biological continuity within Africa. At first, most modern African populations were living in East Africa. At a time, after the main out of Africa migration. Then sub-Sahara Africa, so to speak, shifted northward because of climate change. The rain, flora, animals and the humans shifted northward migrating and occupying the green Sahara. A green Sahara which extend approximately from the Atlantic ocean to Eastern Africa, including the Egyptians deserts. I see it as the wavy-line pottery culture. The progenitor of Ancient Egyptians came from this green Saharan civilization. As populations migrated to the Nile Valley, as well as other regions of Africa, during the dessication of the Sahara. Populations such as those at Nabta Playa, qualified as "sub-Saharan Africans", brought their culture to the Nile Valley to lay down the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian state.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Unfortunately lamin makes no sense as I have never heard of any one claiming the Tuareg to have "originally being lighter skinned" anything, except the Euroclowns. Tuareg are nomadic African people speaking Berber languages and descending from East Africans in Southern Egypt and Sudan.
The best way to understand the situation is to look at things on the ground. The question is how do Malians look at the Touaregs? And how do Touaregs look at Malians? Just interview a sufficient number of both groups and you will get the answer.
The other question is: are Touaregs easily indentifiable in places like Bamako on mainly phenotypical grounds?
A similar issue arises with the Mauritanians of lighter hue vis a vis those of darker hue. Again, just interview both groups and hear what they have to say.
The explanation is simple: nomadic desert and Sahel groups have historically kidnapped sedentary village types whom they use as servants and bondsmen. A theory of castes based on phenotype then develops.
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