quote:Originally posted by Doug M: TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
No matter what you read in a book the Temehu were not Berbers. The Temehu were C-Group people.Diop pointed out long ago that Eurocentrists have tried to project Berbers into the ancient history of African people.
The only genetic link of the Berbers to the east is with the Siwa Berbers who as pointed out earlier came to Siwa recently, and began to dominate the native Siwans.
I am amazed you made these statements relating to the Berber languages after Amun-Ra The Ultimate has posted evidence on the linguistic background of the Berber speakers which shows there lack of relationship to African languages. The Tuareg language is related to African languages--but not Berber.
Although I have posted numerous times comments on the origin of writing in Middle Africa you attempt to connect the Berbers to inscriptions that are spread from the Fezzan to Tichitt,that pre-date the Berber migration from Northwest Africa to Siwa.Moreover, you ignore the fact that numerous Mande speaking groups have writing in addition to Berbers. Since Tichitt was founded by Mande speakers, and the Berbers only recently migrated East, there is no way they wrote the inscriptions found from Fezzan to Tichitt.
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The Tuareg should not be considered Berbers.
Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author)
The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists.(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs(Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier, 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
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During the invansion of Egypt by the people of the Sea, Europeans enter the Delta Region of Egypt. Most researchers link these "whites" to the Berbers. The whites who were part of the Sea People invansion were called the Meshwesh. Researchers link the Meshwesh to modern Berbers.
The tehenu and Meshwesh
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64). The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman. In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliograpy
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Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara.
_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their relationship to Africans.
Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton ,NJ:Africa World Press. This book provides the theoretical foundations for africalogical studies.
_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal of Negro Education,60(2):170-180. The author explains the importance of the Afrocentric field of study for enrichment of the social studies curricula.
__________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric Curriculum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31. This article explains the practical reasons supporting the institution of an Afrocentric curriculum within the context of multiculturalism.
Baines,J. (11 August,1991). "Was Civilization made in Africa?" The New York Times Review of Books,pp.12-13. This article attempts to review the work of Bernal and Diop in a negative light.
Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York. Volume 1. Here the author explains his theory that there is need for a new historiography for the Mediterranean which recognizes the multicultural origins of Greece. The author also returns to the ancient model which claimed that the Egyptians were "Blacks".
________. (1991). Black Athena. New York. Volume 2. In this volume Bernal outlines his theory that the founders of Greece were Hyksos (Semitic) people from Egypt.
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization.
_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian.
__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago:
Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share.
___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states.
____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages.
_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans.
Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books Ltd. 2 volumes. In this volume we see a detailed account of the founding Myths of the ancient Greeks as recorded in Greek literature.
Hopper, R.J. (1976). The Early Greeks. New York:Harper & Row Pub. Hopper gives an informative narative on the history of the ancient Greeks.
Hochfield,S. & Riesfstahl,E.(1978). (Eds.) Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Nubia and the Sudan. New York: Brooklyn Museum. 2 vols. This is a fine source of information on the Kushite and Meroitic empires. It also provides many well researched articles and photographs of the Kushites. The evidence in this book shows that the Egyptians and Kushites were one.
Hughes,R. (1992, February 3). "The Frying of America". TIME ,pp.44-49. Hughes discussed the threat of multiculturalism to unity of the American people.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Levine,M.M. (April 1992). "The use and abuse of Black Athena", American Historical Review,pp. 440-460. This articles attacks Bernal and the use of Black Athena to estabish a new paradigm for ancient history.
Lefkowitz,M. (1992,February 10). "Not out of Africa". The New Republic, pp.29-36. This text deals with the hyptohesis that Greek civilization came from Africa. Lefkowitz contends that Africans failed to play an important role in Greecian civilization.
Marriott,M. (1991,August 11). "As a Discipline Advances, Questions Arise on Scholarship". The New York Times. Marriott gives an excellent discussion of the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. It provides a good discussion of the players pro and against this field of intellectual inquiry.
Martel, E. (December 1991/January 1992). "How valid are the Port-land Baseline Essays". Educational Leadership, pp.20-23. Martel gives reasons in this article why he believes that many of the claims of Afrocentrists are wrong.
__________.(1991). "Teachers's Corner:Ancient Africa and the Port-land Curriculum Resource",Anthro Notes: National Museum of Natural History(Smithsonian) Bulletin for Teachers 13, pp.2-6. This text explains why Afrocentrism should be kept out of the schools until it conforms with accepted Eurocentric views about Africana affairs and history. He does argue that the Egyptians were a multiculutural society.
Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360. This is an excellent analysis of the influence of Diop on africalogical studies and the European attacks against his research.
Nicholson,D. (1992, September 23). "Afrocentrism and the Tribalization of America". The Washington Post, B-l.Nicholson makes the claim that Afrocentrism is causing the fragmentation of America.
Okafor,V.O. (1991). " Diop and the African Origin of Civiliza- tion:An Afrocentric Analysis". Journal of Black Studies 22(2):252-268. This book offers excellent guidelines on implimenting the research methods of Diop in africological studies.
Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization ".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344. This short article provides a wealth of historical and lexical evidence for the African origination of Greccian heroes, literature and civilization.
___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.: Black Classic Press. This book provides a short discussion of the important role of Blacks in the rise of civilization around the world.
Petrie,W.M.F. (1921). Corpus of Prehistoric Pottery. London.Petrie provides the first detailed categorization of Egyptian pottery and an informative account on the origination of Egypt.
Pounder, R.L. (1992,April) "Black Athena 2:History without Rules" American Historical Review, 461-464. This articles attacks the credibility of Bernal's ,Black Athena.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Raphael, . 1947. Prehistoric Pottery . New York: Pantheon Book. Raphael provides a thorough explanation of the ceramics of the predynastic Egyptians.
Ravitch,D. (1990,Summer). "Multiculturalism:E Pluribus Plures". The American Scholar, pp.337-354. Ravitch argues that multiculturalism is causing America to become ethnicallly polarized, while we abandon many of the values that unite Americans.
Schlesinger,A.M. (1992). The Disuniting of America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society. New York: Norton. Schlesinger argues that multiculturalism is bringing about the rise of ethnocentrism in the United States.
Snowden,F. (1976). "Ethiopians and the Greco-Roman World". In The African Diaspora. Washington: Howard University Press. In this paper Snowden discusses the role of Ethiopian slaves in Grecce.
___________. (1992, March 4). "Blacks as seen by Ancient Egyptians, Greek and Roman Artists". (Lecture) Chicago: Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. In this lecture Snowden continues his theory that the only Blacks in Egyptian and Classical art were slaves.
Tounkara,B. (1989). "Problematique du comparatisme egyptien ancien/langues africaines (wolof)". Presence Africaine,nos. 149-150: 313-320. This book discusses the linguistic relationship of wolof and Egyptian.
Trigger,B.G. (1987). "Egypt: A Fledging Nation". The Journal of the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. Trigger documents the rise of Egyptian civilization in the Sahara and Nubia.
____________. (1992). "Brown Athena: A Post Processual Goddess". Current Anthropology, 33(1): 121-123. This article focuses on the misuse of the book Black Athena as a tool to claim the Egyptians were Blacks.
Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne. Paris. This is a fine examination of the archaeology of Egypt.
Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The Oriental Institute University of Chicago. This excellent text reviews the important Qustul cemetery, which provides a detailed account of the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.
Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian origin in Nubia.
Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima,(New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215. This paper discusses the Manding origin for many of the so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions and explains how these inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years ago.
__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes the idea that Greece was founded by the Indo-European speakers. Winters argues that credit should be given to the African settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine.
_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8. In this article Winters' discussed the famous Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin.
________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper provides insights into the long history of Blacks in Europe, including the Old Europeans, Danubians and other groups.
_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the unity of the writing systems used by the Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans. He shows that these scripts have a common ideological origin and that they can all be read due to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by these people.
__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto- terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland.
__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis of the common roots toponyms found in Asia of African origin.
__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these langauges that indicate their genetic unity.
__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan civilization. He provides numerous examples of the Dravidian and African influences on the Indo-European languages.
__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years ago. Special attention is placed on the type and expression of African civilization in ancient Asia.
___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites, Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups.
Yurco,F. (1989,September/October). "Were the ancient Egyptians Black?". Biblical Archaeological Review, 15(5):24-29,58.Yurco argues that the Egyptians have always been "light skinned", and that they got darker as you went south into Nubia. Wainwright, G. 1962. The Meshwesh", JEA 48, 89-99.
Osing,J. 1980. "Libyen, Libyer", LA III, 1015-1033.
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The Tehenu belonged to the C-Group and were predominately Niger-Congo speakers. They joined the Egyptian empire during the New Kingdom and lived in the Southern nomes.
Many researchers have recognized that many African civilizations share common cultural features and words with ancient Egypt. This poses the question: "Why do Egyptians and Black Africans share a similar civilization"?.
This question has been answered by Wally. Wally has proven that Egpyt was a Pan-African civilization which was multinational and included many African nationalities.
Secondly, Wally has proven that egyptian was a lingua franca used to unite the multinational Pan-African Egypt with a single means of communication.
These findings by Wally means that we have to see the shared linguistic and cultural features of Black Africans are the result of many of these african nationals living in a Pan-African Egypt.
Great work Wally!
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that many contemporary Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects. .
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
Right. When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47 African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Not all Russians look what "you" expect and assume them to look like.
And at the same time you have the nerve to boast with West Eurasian ancestry in southern Africa.
The more you type, the more you show that you are a white supremacist.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic.
That's a lie and mischaracterization of Obenga's works.
.
Go away you bother me, boy. All your twists & lies.
Obenga never wrote about any relationship between Berber and Germanic.
Obenga without ambiguity classifies Berber as an African language family just as he classed Khoisan as an African language family.
You with your personal beef invent the lie that I said Obenga's Berber language family is his Negro-Egyptien language family.
Way back in 2007 I posted Obenga excluded Berber from both Negro-Egyptien and any relationship to Semitic or Egyptic (which Greenberg classed all three in AfroAsian).
Originally posted October 08, 2007 04:56 PM by alTakruri:
As far as I can make out, and I very well could be wrong, Obenga recognizes three unrelated language phyla native to geographical Africa and one spoken in Africa but considered of extra-African origin.
1) négro-égyptien 2) khoisan 3) berbère
He recognizes that Semitic languages are spoken in Africa but doesn't classify them as native to the geographical continent of Africa calling them
4) sémitique de l'Afrique
He defines the Negro-Egyptian group as those languages related to if not actually arising from pharaonic Egyptian.
Tamazight (the designation that North Africans themselves have chosen for their language family as they deem the word Berber to be one forced on them by Greek, Roman, and later Arab colonialist invaders) is totally unrelated to pharaonic Egyptian per Obenga and thus excluded from the unity of the langues négro-africaines.
Originally posted October 09, 2007 03:18 PM by alTakruri:
Obenga classes taMazight (Berber) as an indigenous African language in a superphylum all of its own.
Again, as posted above, Obenga recognizes three unrelated language phyla native to geographical Africa:
1) négro-égyptien 2) khoisan 3) berbère
Tamazight, per Obenga, is totally unrelated to pharaonic Egyptian and thus excluded from the unity of the langues négro-africaines.
You didn't follow the link before and I doubt you'll follow it now. Why? your interest is puffing your chest at my expense instead of increasing knowledge.
Fat chance.
Think before you post! (if you can reason i.e.)
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Historians give a 428/9 start date and a 534/5 finish date for North African Vandal rule.
Very few Berbers descend from Vandals.
Probably only some now living in Bougie.
The Luwata Berbers and the Byzantines conquered the Vandals. Those who weren't conscripted into the Byzantine army and shipped off to the Persian frontier fled to the two Gothic kingdoms in Europe. The paltry remainder were absorbed by the Latinized Berbers of Soldae (now Bougie).
Vandals are not known to be culture bearers. I mean they had nothing to give as influence into Berber culture. Their physical range was limited. It missed all the Berber territory of Morocco and everything other side of the Atlas from Morocco to Libya.
Compare Vandal Kingdom limits to range of Berber dialects.
Not only is the Twareg Tamahaqt et al a "Berber" dialect, it is per some linguists closest to the Kabyle Taqbaylit lect though the culture of the two are not much alike at all.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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We already know about this, however...the nuclear resolutions is what Tukuler is mentioning. What you keep dismissing is that the lineage could actually have maintained within Africa. And in fact you keep telling us it magically stopped at L*.
By the way, when are you going to show archeological and anthropological evidence, in this so called distribution?
quote:The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago
--Frigi et al.
quote:No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
[...]
Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote:Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
quote: “..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages
(B) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, L5, L2, L3, M, and N in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies.
--Mary Katherine Gonder*, Holly M. Mortensen*, Floyd A. Reed*, Alexandra de Sousa†‡ and Sarah A. Tishkoff*
Hg N, see Fig.3:
--Tishkoff S A , M. K. Gonder, B. M. Henn, H. Mortensen, A. Knight, C. Gignoux, N. Fernandopulle, G. Lema, T. B. Nyambo, U. Ramakrishnan, et al.(2007).History of Click-Speaking Populations of Africa Inferred from mtDNA and Y Chromosome Genetic Variation. Mol. Biol. Evol., 24(10): 2180 - 2195.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ish, please shrink those charts they make it hard to read the thread because I have to keep scrolling left to right each and every line of a post just to read it. thx
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Ok, your post is childish and ridiculous but I will still answer you.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Obenga classified Berber as an African language. Obenga never said anything about it being Germanic.
That's a lie and mischaracterization of Obenga's works.
.
Shut up snake ass with your twisted lies.
Obenga never wrote about any relationship between Berber and Germanic.
Obenga without ambiguity classifies Berber as an African language family just as he classed Khoisan as an African language family.
You with your personal beef invent the lie that I said Obenga's Berber language family is his Negro-Egyptien language family.
Way back in 2007 I posted Obenga excluded Berber from both Negro-Egyptien and any relationship to Semitic or Egyptic (which Greenberg classed all three in AfroAsian).
You didn't follow the link before and I doubt you'll follow it now. Why? your interest is puffing your chest at my expense. Fat chance.
I'm sick of your **** you gotdamn lying freak.
You need to learn to calm the **** down and present your information without attempting character assassination, asshole.
^^^ My point of view is not related to an etymological question of what we call African depending on the context. The same way a person of African descent citizen of Japan (recently or not) could be called a Japanese; Any citizen of an African country could be called African in certain context (usually not used in medicine, archaeology, biology and forensic where we use the ancestral origin).
Berber have full ownership right on the continent as well as any citizen of African countries. Including Arabs and Europeans. In fact, Berbers migrated to the continent since a very long time ago (at least before 12000BP). Then they admixed with other Eurasian and African population at different proportions.
The question is whether or not Berbers are closely related to other African populations including Ancient Egyptians. Either genetically, historically, biologically, culturally, archaeologically, etc.
Linguistically, Obenga sees no relation between Berber and other African languages (Yoruba, Somali, Ancient Egyptian, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, etc). On this I am 100% right.
Genetically, this study ( Ancient DNA study of Maghreb specimen dating from around 12000BP) place mtDNA H,U and V carriers in Africa around 12000BP. While it's true U6 may have originated among that population in North Africa (possibly AFTER their arrival from Eurasian regions). The parent/basal haplogroups of the H, U and V haplogroup originated outside Africa. So ultimately Berber are people who originated outside Africa and are the product of the back migration of non-African people from Iberia/West Eurasia (carrying the mtDNA hg H, U, V) into the Maghreb a very long time ago. At this location they have grown to become their own people until foreign conquests. Linguistically and genetically they are not closely related to other African populations like (Yoruba, Somali, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, Ancient Egyptians, etc).
For example, in this map above we can see the MtDNA R haplogroup originated outside Africa (in Western Asia it seems). MtDNA R is parent to haplogroups H0, HV, H, V and U. And R originated outside Africa. QED
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It's not about you being right or wrong it's about valid factual information of quoted sources, in this instance Obenga.
R u 10 yrs old or retarded? I wrote Obenga sees Berber as unrelated to the rest of the African languages 7 yrs ago.
========
As for the genetics it's like this kiddo.
The uniparentals support Berbers are primarily African.
Go argue with the raw data categorized exactly as each team of population geneticists decided which geography the haplogroups belong to (even though one assigns a haplogroup to a certain region while one assigns it to the opposite.
Sorry no pretty pictures for the intellectually challenged.
@ the ES readership
I have three autosome skylines that more than support Berbers are primarily Africa, and they hi-lite the local contribution as dominant.
Waiting for the top slot of a fress page before I post them. Meanwhile all go ahead with filler as long as it's related to the thread's topic header.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Late to the party. WHat is your diagram describing? What's the bottom line? What;s the French translation say as to Tafloralt or Mechta Arbi?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Late to the party. WHat is your diagram describing? What's the bottom line? What;s the French translation say as to Tafloralt or Mechta Arbi? [/QB]
I already answered those questions a few posts after the one you replied to (notice what I put in bold letters):
Genetically, this study ( Ancient DNA study of Maghreb specimen dating from around 12000BP) place mtDNA H,U and V carriers in Africa around 12000BP. While it's true U6 may have originated among that population in North Africa (possibly AFTER their arrival from Eurasian regions). The parent/basal haplogroups of the H, U and V haplogroup originated outside Africa. So ultimately Berber are people who originated outside Africa and are the product of the back migration of non-African people from Iberia/West Eurasia (carrying the mtDNA hg H, U, V) into the Maghreb a very long time ago. At this location they have grown to become their own people until foreign conquests. MtDNA H, U and V are rare among African people beside North Africans and Berbers. Linguistically, according to Obenga, and genetically they are not closely related to other African populations like (Yoruba, Somali, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, Ancient Egyptians, etc).
For example, in this map above we can see the MtDNA R haplogroup originated outside Africa (in Western Asia it seems). MtDNA R is parent to haplogroups H0, HV, H, V and U. And R originated outside Africa. QED
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It's Kefi and you were around and maybe read all the critiques made about it here on ES since 2005 when it came out.
Oh, please read the past pages of this thread. ARTU has taken to repeating himself.
Yes, I want a plethora of views for my thread but I mean who needs a broken record/skipping CD.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: It's Kefi and you were around and maybe read all the critiques made about it here on ES since 2005 when it came out.
Oh, please read the past pages of this thread. ARTU has taken to repeating himself.
Yes, I want a plethora of views for my thread but I mean who needs a broken record/skipping CD.
Kefi didn't lie about the haplogroup of the ancient Taforalt specimens. Don't be ridiculous.
The only question I have is how representative the remains in Taforalt were of the Maghreb as a whole. Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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The only question I have is how representative the remains in Taforalt were of the Maghreb as a whole. Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP. [/QB]
They are particular specifically to the Iberomaurusian culture. (also Afalou is another related varient at another Iberomaurusian site. No remains are represenataive because there were differnt cultures in the prehistoric Maghreb with different backgrounds
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Many of us do not understand that AIM/SNP and nRYDNA/MTDNA need to be considered TOGETHER
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Y chromosomal haplogroup profiles in north Africa aren't biologically informative, only historically. Not biologically informative in the sense that other AIMS do not corroborate the picture that the Berber Y chromosomal profile paints. So, for instance, we don't see a preponderance of East African specific ancestry in Berber populations in analyses that employ other (non Y chromosomal) AIMs. Historically informative in the sense their Y chromosomal profiles at least allow us to infer that Egyptian and/or Sudanese E-M81 males migrated there and somehow had such an impact that they artificially deflated Upper Palaeolithic Magrebi Y chromosomal predecessors, which in all likelihood included T-M184, as evinced by the Y chromosomal profiles of Tibbou and Fulani populations whose ancestors likely had contact with these pre-Berber speakers.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP. [/QB]
That's the problem with Google scholars like yourself. Regurgitating googled stuff like you knew it all along is bound to backfire because you're too crude to know how to verify your claims for accuracy. Most of the H and V lineages in n.Africa show no evidence of having existed before 12kya. The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Clyde, you might find some of the Albania linguistics, possible berber connection discussed below intertesting. It's only some of page 1 of a forum discussion
first a little E genetics:
wiki:
Subclades of E-M78
There are four recognized subclades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. 2006.
E-V12 Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important subclade E-V32 which is very common among Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis. E-V13 This is the most common type of E-M215 found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans. E-V22 Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places. E-V65 Associated with North Africa, but also found in Italy and Spain. E-M521 Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. 2008
Albanian genetics:
Y-Dna The two haplogroups most strongly associated with Albanian people (E-V13 and J2b) are often considered to have arrived in Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic, early in the Holocene epoch. From here in the Balkans, it is thought, they spread to the rest of Europe.
The distribution of E-V13 in Europe Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[91] Most E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, possibly in the Balkans.
This is an interesting 12 page Europedia forum topic:
Garrick Regular Member
Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity
Berber languages are quite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers E haplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to North Africa and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabic and French.
I give the example of comparing Albanian words with languages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg (part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Arab and French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.
It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt.
English, Berbers, Albanian
1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit
say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)
my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)
we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)
than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.)
meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch)
fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)
father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb
thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l)
elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly)
2. Tamasheq
black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced as english ә, the: δә)
do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.)
rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.)
boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)
want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)
carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)
eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.)
fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)
health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)
_____________
Maciamo
Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa.
There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.
______________
Garrick Regular Member
Maciamo I knew Albanians who claimed that their roots are Egyptian/African. Albanian is also true took words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages but it is possible that their basic language is the AfroAsiatic language.
Researchers had long puzzled where it comes from the word Dardania. With knowledge of haplogroup, and the fact that the Albanians and the Berbers are of the same origin, and the Berbers have preserved their language (and dialects):
maybe the root word Dardania is discovered.
In the eastern half oh the Sudan, the common word (usually classed as Arabic) for a country or tribal area is Dar. The word is however nor an Arabic word really, though adopted and used by Arabs as such. It is pre-Arab (ie Berber word) for an "encampment," and from this meaning of "camp," Dar or Tar, with its variant Dala, acquired in many parts of the Sudan and the Sahara meaning "hill," since camps were frequently on a hill or elevated ground.
Cruciani et al (2007) estimated it but other researchers placed much closer. You can read (source: Wikipedia):
Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".
These numbers higlighted by Battaglia and Hassan are, I think, a lot more realistic. This period can also be connected with the creation of specific language groups within the Afro-Asian language family, which I will set the following posts.
These estimated years say to us more important things. This means that the E holders arrived to the Europe, Balkans much later than 10,000 years BC, perhaps before 6,000 years ago or 4,000 years or more later.
It has researchers also who dispute the thesis that the E carriers can be classified into Early farmers who, together with J and G carriers came to the Balkans (according to them only J & G remain Early farmers), in each case the E carriers came alone from Africa to Balkans rather than in pairs with J & G carriers.
________________
sturmgewehr Regular Member
This thread is as stupid as it can get.
First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.
You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.
First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.
The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.
there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.
First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.
If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.
Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.
If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.
Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents
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Garrick Regular Member
What are you talking about that stupid someone can interpret your attitude in a negative means since there is no invariably the situation once and for all, attraction of science is in the fact that new research results and lead to changes and to new knowledge.
Albanian language has no relationship with any European language, and you can see that it is classified as a completely separate, not Germanic, or Slavic, or Romance, or Celtic, or the Baltic, etc. in general any European language family does not belong. When the languages were classified scientists did not have data of haplogroups.
When it was revealed that Haplogroup E originated from Africa (Somalia/Ethiopia), and when it was found that haplogroup E is by far the dominant among the Albanians, with the highest concentration is achieved among the Albanians in Kosovo (see map of Maciamo about the distribution of E haplogroups in Europe and peak in the Kosovo), then began to investigate idea whether the original Albanian language is close to any of the Hamitic, or more accurately Afroasiatic languages. Exactly those languages are in the area of origin, spread and concentration of Haplogroup E.
Between languages of the same Afroasiatic (early, Hamitic) family:
Cushitic, Omotic, Chadic, Egyptian and Berber,
obviously Berber languages attracted the most attention, although all other languages remain interesting to study the connection with today's Albanian.
Especially for this purpose is becoming explorers Proto-berber language, which is thought to exist prior to 9000.
Someone can read (source: Wikipedia):
“...But modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 8000~9000BP, the split from the common language from which modern Berber languages come may be as recent as 3000 BP, according to Naima Louali.”
If E carriers have not yet migrated to Europe at the time, which can be found at many researchers, it is easily possible for the Albanian language to connects with Proto-berber. Among the authors there is no agreement when E came to Europe, Balkans, from Africa, there are researchers who placed the period 4000 to 6000 years, some even close.
It is high possible that original Albanian language must come from Africa, since the origin is African (for example, among the Albanian researchers there are those that connect Albanians with the Egyptians and so on.), so that knowledge come from new researchs, and new theories and conclusions created.
So in Europe comparisons have emerged of the Albanian and Berber.
Among the various Berber dialects, there are many Berber words, which are similar to Albanian, and some words those who speak these languages reveals.
At the Albanian forums can be read Albanians put up pictures Berbers and affects where they are from and compare physical similarities with Albanians, the theme is not new, it is all written, I try to approach in the way of serious research and to point to this relationship, Y DNA, anthropological, linguistic, we can go on with the costumes, customs and so on.
To the observation that the Berber languages is lot arabized, okay, you can see that I pointed influence of Arabic and French (and Spanish among some Berbers populations), however, the Berbers who speak some of these dialects will notice whether the word original is Berber or adopted, from what I get, and an effort is worth only for those words that is sure to the original Berber and have not suffered the impact.
But it would be wonderful to Berbers involve in this discussion, then we can really all together to get to the exciting discoveries and insights, on movements and origin of population, for which the genetics and anthropology have found that the same common origin.
Thus, we can consider the many same or very similar the Berber and Albanian words, and it would be nice to the Berbers include and to discuss about it.
If you noticed, I pointed out that today's Albanian took a lot of words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages, but it is very likely that it is basically Afroasiatic language, and then it is a close family of languages, which I mentioned.
Is Albanian language closest Proto-berber or another group of languages of Afroasiatic family, science will investigate and determine, it is still investigating and trying to prove, and charm of science is exactly in that new research and new results lead to a change of existing attitudes, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.
Here are some more words from
Berber (Tamasheq) and Albanian (Shqipe):
stripe (eng.), sәrrett (berb.), shirit (alb.)
awl (eng.), endel (berb.), fëndyell (y alb. no pronounciation in English, between u and e)
posted
There are many bogus elements in the structuring of MtDNA groupings. Africa is presented as having only 4. Thyey lo, L1, L2, and L3. Yet the other continents proliferate with MtDNA groupings
Given that it some groups migrated out of Africa only some 50,000 years ago while the humankind had existed in Africa for some 200,000 years, it follows logically that MtDNA haplogroups of Africa should be at least as many as the combined groups of Europe and Asia plus those 4 from Africa.
Colonial linguistics it still with us it seems. The whole idea of "Afroasiatic" as language family is just bogus when the languages in question had their origins in Africa. "Afroasiatic" is merely old-wine "Hamitico-Semitic" in a new post-colonial bottle.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: There are many bogus elements in the structuring of MtDNA groupings. Africa is presented as having only 4. Thyey lo, L1, L2, and L3. Yet the other continents proliferate with MtDNA groupings
Given that it some groups migrated out of Africa only some 50,000 years ago while the humankind had existed in Africa for some 200,000 years, it follows logically that MtDNA haplogroups of Africa should be at least as many as the combined groups of Europe and Asia plus those 4 from Africa.
Colonial linguistics it still with us it seems. The whole idea of "Afroasiatic" as language family is just bogus when the languages in question had their origins in Africa. "Afroasiatic" is merely old-wine "Hamitico-Semitic" in a new post-colonial bottle.
My research indicates that L3(M,N) probably expanded across Africa before it was taken to Europe.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ish, please shrink those charts they make it hard to read the thread because I have to keep scrolling left to right each and every line of a post just to read it. thx
It was a one time thing. To show the Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages. Relating to the suggested Hg's.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Late to the party. WHat is your diagram describing? What's the bottom line? What;s the French translation say as to Tafloralt or Mechta Arbi?
I already answered those questions a few posts after the one you replied to (notice what I put in bold letters):
Genetically, this study ( Ancient DNA study of Maghreb specimen dating from around 12000BP) place mtDNA H,U and V carriers in Africa around 12000BP. While it's true U6 may have originated among that population in North Africa (possibly AFTER their arrival from Eurasian regions). The parent/basal haplogroups of the H, U and V haplogroup originated outside Africa. So ultimately Berber are people who originated outside Africa and are the product of the back migration of non-African people from Iberia/West Eurasia (carrying the mtDNA hg H, U, V) into the Maghreb a very long time ago. At this location they have grown to become their own people until foreign conquests. MtDNA H, U and V are rare among African people beside North Africans and Berbers. Linguistically, according to Obenga, and genetically they are not closely related to other African populations like (Yoruba, Somali, Kongo, Dinka, Fur, Afar, Zulu, Wolof, Ancient Egyptians, etc).
For example, in this map above we can see the MtDNA R haplogroup originated outside Africa (in Western Asia it seems). MtDNA R is parent to haplogroups H0, HV, H, V and U. And R originated outside Africa. QED [/QB]
On what do you base mtDNA R originated outside of Africa?
Same question goes for HV.
Look at the Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineage, which I have posted. Take a look at M and N. According to that path it's not so absurd as you try to make it seem.
Please, show me archeological and anthropological evidence of your claims.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, you might find some of the Albania linguistics, possible berber connection discussed below intertesting. It's only some of page 1 of a forum discussion
first a little E genetics:
wiki:
Subclades of E-M78
There are four recognized subclades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. 2006.
E-V12 Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important subclade E-V32 which is very common among Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis. E-V13 This is the most common type of E-M215 found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans. E-V22 Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places. E-V65 Associated with North Africa, but also found in Italy and Spain. E-M521 Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. 2008
Albanian genetics:
Y-Dna The two haplogroups most strongly associated with Albanian people (E-V13 and J2b) are often considered to have arrived in Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic, early in the Holocene epoch. From here in the Balkans, it is thought, they spread to the rest of Europe.
The distribution of E-V13 in Europe Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[91] Most E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, possibly in the Balkans.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
No matter what you read in a book the Temehu were not Berbers. The Temehu were C-Group people.Diop pointed out long ago that Eurocentrists have tried to project Berbers into the ancient history of African people.
The only genetic link of the Berbers to the east is with the Siwa Berbers who as pointed out earlier came to Siwa recently, and began to dominate the native Siwans.
I am amazed you made these statements relating to the Berber languages after Amun-Ra The Ultimate has posted evidence on the linguistic background of the Berber speakers which shows there lack of relationship to African languages. The Tuareg language is related to African languages--but not Berber.
Although I have posted numerous times comments on the origin of writing in Middle Africa you attempt to connect the Berbers to inscriptions that are spread from the Fezzan to Tichitt,that pre-date the Berber migration from Northwest Africa to Siwa.Moreover, you ignore the fact that numerous Mande speaking groups have writing in addition to Berbers. Since Tichitt was founded by Mande speakers, and the Berbers only recently migrated East, there is no way they wrote the inscriptions found from Fezzan to Tichitt.
.
Clyde you are looking at the fragmented and often confusing history of the languages often identified as Berber and trying to extrapolate African identity, or in this case NON African identity, from a language group. African identity cannot be boiled down to simple categories like languages. My point is that the African nomadic pastoral tradition in North Africa is ancient probably the oldest in the world. The Sahara desert has seen movements of populations over most of its history from the South and the East of Africa because for most of human history the ONLY humans on earth were in the South and East of Africa. East Africa is the home of all humans. Therefore, humans have been migrating in and around Africa longer than they have been migrating outside of Africa. Berber languages are thought by many to have originated among populations migrating in and between the Nile Valley and the Sahara. This population, however, is simply one subset of many populations that have been moving through the Sahara and the Sahel and there are many others who speak different languages as well. Therefore the point of the C-Group relationship is that you have a population that over time expanded from the area identified as a region where the ancestors of those who eventually migrated into the Sahara speaking Berber languages originated. This isn't ONLY about language. Genetics have already affirmed that the Tuareg have close ties to the Beja nomads, who are the modern day descendants of ancient Nile Valley Africans called "C-Group", which is another foreign label. But that is just a small part of a bigger picture as can be seen in the hot debates about the origin of the various lineages in North Africa, where many are African and represent more ancient migrations of Africans from the East of Africa. Which again proves the point that all human lineages, within and outside Africa, all ultimately originate in East Africa.
So it is a combination of linguistic, cultural and genetic information that shows the roots of Berber as originating in East Africa. And because we are talking of ancient movements in Arid Desert environments among nomadic populations which means that over time populations, languages and settlements have changed. That is why most of this is about reconstructing a history for Berber languages which is fraught with so much error.
Berber languages are African and have always been African no matter how "contentious", fragmented or confused the history.
Bottom line Clyde, we know you have been trying to claim Berber languages and by extension Berber "people" are European for a long time on this forum and elsewhere, but every time, especially here your ideas have been refuted.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP.
That's the problem with Google scholars like yourself. Regurgitating googled stuff like you knew it all along is bound to backfire because you're too crude to know how to verify your claims for accuracy. Most of the H and V lineages in n.Africa show no evidence of having existed before 12kya.
Actually, I agree with your post beside the ridiculous part about google. Unless you pretend to be a great scholar and a person who never used googgle, it's just stupid. Anyway I didn't use googgle for this, but the Ancient DNA study of specimen at Taforalt (Maghreb):
This study says 12000BP not before 12000BP. So before 12000BP is only speculative based on the fact that those remains were labelled by the study to be from the iberomaurusian archaeological culture which is dated to have started before 12000BP.
Unless those European migrants quickly adopted the culture of the people already there, there's an informed possibility that they probably have been there before 12000BP. I have nothing to gain from this fact, but I'm interested in the truth, not what is convenient.
quote: The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants . [/QB]
Thank you. I agree with you. You should talk to Tukuler or something. Those people are European migrants from a very ancient time. They then admixed with other Eurasian and African populations.
You say the Taforalt represent the remains of **recent** European immigrants. Accent on recent (aka 12000BP). Of course I wouldn't mind it, but it's not backed by any scientific data. At the moment we only have evidence of the presence of European migrants at about 12000BP on the Taforalt site. They are also from the iberomausitian culture (according to the study) which is dated to be from before 12000BP.
As I already mentioned, it's not clear that those people are representative of the Maghreb as a whole, even at that time period, other archaeological sites may be composed of remains from other haplogroups. Even the Iberomaurisian culture as a whole could be composed of people of different lineages, ethnic background and haplogroups. But again, it's all speculative unless we have ancient DNA or convincing archeological data. The only thing that is not speculative is the presence of European migrants in the Taforalt site at around 12000Bp.
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posted
You are not giving up... are you? Still holding to the coalescene age nonsense by Achilli. Even when there is no evidence of European males entering Africa. After Henn concluded the migration was one way based upon AIM. After proof that Saharawi carry more diverse haplotype HV/V...and the highest frequency R-V88(male) in North Africa. After coalescene age of H1/H3 is together is older in Africa.
Either slow or stubborn.
I guess they were ONLY male European immigrants...lol!
Literature major huh!?
quote:Originally posted by a ...:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Still, this places haplogroups H, U and V in the maghreb at a time period before 12000BP.
That's the problem with Google scholars like yourself. Regurgitating googled stuff like you knew it all along is bound to backfire because you're too crude to know how to verify your claims for accuracy. Most of the H and V lineages in n.Africa show no evidence of having existed before 12kya. The majority of the Taforalt individuals are descendants of what back then would then have been recent European immigrants. [/QB]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Stop fuming out of your behind, gramps. How does the phylogenetic structure and distribution of all HV lineages, support an African origin for mtDNA V, H1 and H3?
That's stupid. Only U6 and L3 could've been there before 12k.
We have to look at projected ages of the Taforalt haplogroups. The L3 is much older than the H & V. JT is the one that could've been there before 12k.
The genome of epiPaleolithic Taforalt does most likely represent that of all Maurusian Maghreb.
There was no physical impediment (ice glaciers or permafrost) during the LGM preventing travel across the straight. Yet the industries and genetic paternals on either side are unique.
Only the maternals evidence possible contact. The ages of H1 and H3 does give reason to question if they are continental specific or actual more specific of a general Alboran origin.
Frigi 2010 officially questioned the possible origins of H1 & H3.
In any event there is no Iberian signature paternal haplogroup in Berbers or the Maghreb to correlate with H1, H3, etc. This supports an Alboran origin for H1 & H3 unless they are Amazon specific markers. (You know the story of the Amazons? Mistreated women abandoned their men moved to Africa set up completely matrifocal society -- fantastic mythology).
Of course any talk of paleolithic usage much less origin of Berber language in Iberia is the purest of pseudohistorical garbage fantasy.
The cultures/industries of the Maghreb and Iberia show no signs of sameness. Ibero-Maurusian is well known to be a misnomer.
There is no relationship between the Magdalene&Azilian of Iberia and the Maurusian of the Maghreb.
Osteo remains show epiPaleolithic Maghrebis differ from Iberians of that era in the direction of some characteristics used to stereotype Africans.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Never mind, since alTakruri's post wasn't directed towards me. And I don't want to give gramps Xyyman too much leeway to ignore my question.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
yeah...12000ya, European white women immigrated to Africa. Only a black pimp would believe that.
You are out of your element brother. Stick to the dozens with the lunatic.
In my one post I quoted four papers...and you didn't get it..yet you want to discuss this stuff with me.
Enjoy your dream of white women migrating to Africa.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Whatsamatter, gramps? Am I hitting a sensitive nerve?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Stop fuming out of your behind, gramps. How does the phylogenetic structure and distribution of all HV lineages, support an African origin for mtDNA V, H1 and H3?
posted
Jackass...I hate dumbing things down. What are you? An illiterate clown...READ!! my man...and understand!! On page2 of this thread!!
Me sensitive? Ha! Ha! "I debate my peers, all others I teach".
Do you understand the significance of the following? Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
==
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: It really a good idea to periodically go back and read some of these older papers even if it is dated(2003). Here is an informative piece of data/information .
From : Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean S. Plaza1, F. Calafell1, Comas
Quote: ***** Simoni et al. 2000a; Richards et al. 2000). It has been suggested that haplogroup V originated and expanded from NE Iberia (Torroni et al. 1998; Torroni et al. 2001). In the European samples analysed, its frequency (which includes pre-V and V proper as defined by Torroni et al. 2001) ranges from 2.7% in Sardinia and Southern Italy to 10.4% in Basques, and is absent in Central Spaniards, Valencians, and Tuscans. Except in Algerians and Tunisians, haplogroup V has been found in all the samples analysed, with ****high frequencies among the Saharawi (17.9%) and Southern Berbers (10%). ****In order to elucidate the phylogenetic relationships between sequences, a network of V sequences was constructed (Figure 3). The network displayed a clear star-like pattern with all V sequences found in NW Africa close to the *****V sequence root type***** or with one or two added substitutions, whereas Italian and Iberian V sequences show a wider distribution of substitutions. OUT OF THE FIVE DIFFERENT V HAPLOTYPES FOUND IN NW AFRICA, THREE WERE THOSE THAT ARE MOST FREQUENT IN EUROPE, while only two were specific to NW Africa. A time depth for the haplogroup V of 13,700 ± 3,000 years was estimated when all sequences were included, similar to previous estimates (Torroni et al. 2001). The last section of the mtDNA phylogeny considered includes the Eurasian haplogroups W, I, X, and haplogroup M. Haplogroups W, I, and X are basically found in continental Italy, and some traces are found in Iberians, Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccan Arabs. The M sequences found in the analysed populations can be sorted into two different phylogenetic groups: haplogroups M1 and M5. It has been suggested that ******
Now the questions is how many of us understand what was said there? And the significance it it. I am indebted to you, Sage, for re-visiting the subject. I missed this the first time around.
What does the above excerpt tell us?
1. Torroni is either a liar or quack, which I have been saying all along. 2. There have been several waves of Africans entering Europe from NW from the Maghreb. 3. mtDNA-V seemed to have entered Europe through Iberia and to a lesser extent Sardinia into Italy. 4. Proving yet again. Massive influx of AMH into Europe through NW then Europe, consistent with Henn's SNP data pack. 5. Relevance? mtDNA HV and the high frequency in Berbers and Europe? [/QB]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Who cares about frequencies and diversities. I'm asking you a question which gets to the bottom of things. The ancestral and sibling lineages aren't in North Africa; only the super derived H1, H3 and V extremity lineages. Explain the scenario in which this is the case and H1, H3 and V are still independant of any Eurasian influx. The body doesn't grow out of the extremities, now does it? Spit it out:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Stop fuming out of your behind, gramps. How does the phylogenetic structure and distribution of all HV lineages, support an African origin for mtDNA V, H1 and H3?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Never mind, since alTakruri's post wasn't directed towards me. And I don't want to give gramps Xyyman too much leeway to ignore my question.
I want my thread as robust as possible so I hope this is OK w/u
Furthermore, archaeological remains found in eastern Morocco (e.g. the Taforalt harpoon, [57]) or evidences of big-game fishing (in Nerja cave, Malaga) during the Upper Magdalenian (~12-10 kya) suggest the existence of contacts between the north and south of western Mediterranean shores.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
To those who don't get it. The genetic data is now confirming Sergi was correct. All the megalithic structures found in the Mediterranean Islands and southern European mainland came from peoples of the Sahara North Africa. Africans have been entering Europe close to 50,000yrs.
ALL contemporary genetic comparing both shores have confirmed that.
I am open to ANYONE to prove otherwise. ANYONE?!
Of course a minimum amount of intelligence and analytical ability is required.
Notice, I let some RAMBLE on(ARTU etc)...because I understand they are learning.
Again ..based upon the genetic data provided, ignoring selective pictures, Berbers are indigenous Africans.
Truthteacher? has a video of Amazigh on ESR. I saw it a few days ago. I am beginning to recognize a true Amazihg. Their facial structure seems to be similar to the San, similar skin tone, but straight hair.
I hope some of you realize that some Amazihg also carry deepest clade of hg-A. Some researches are now speculating that AMH first appeared in NW/C Africa(Sahel). Sources cited....
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Brotherton 2013 based on Euro aDNA concluded
The calibrated ‘Neolithic’ rate infers a considerably younger coalescence date for hg H (10.9–19.1 kya) than those previously reported.
Brotherton-et-al-2013 Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Give up European white women coming to Africa. It never happened!!!!
Do you realize no Y DNA from the Taforalt has been presented? It may or may not have also been Eurasian to some extent. The M81 or other E is form analysis of modern berbers and M81 is thought to be only 5600 years old !
Also as far as the mtDNA is concerned look to history, raids, rape and pillage,
Invaders come in. They kill/chase away the men and then rape the women and take them as slaves or wives
So forgot your silly scenarios where a caravan of women only strolls in. There are other more sober explanations
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
Sure.
All goofing aside, The ancestral and sibling lineages aren't in North Africa; only the super derived H1, H3 and V extremity lineages. Explain the scenario in which this is the case and H1, H3 and V are still independent of any Eurasian influx. The body doesn't grow out of the extremities, now does it?
BTW, gramps, if you don't want to answer it you can just say it. Just don't engage me again if you know you don't want your precious delusions trampled.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Achille states that mtDNA hg-H entered NW Africa FROM Europe about 12000ya but you know what ...ALL aDNA thus far (180 specimen)from Europe shows Zero presence of the said hg-H IN Europe as little as 5000ya.
Do you understand the significance of that my man?
Do I have to explain it to you? The Achilli speculation is BS. Get It!? I usual let clowns run their mouth until they go too far.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: TIfinagh and Ge'ez are not that close. I stand corrected. For some reason I had recalled a closer connection but obviously that is faulty now that I look.
As for the origins of the script, many associate it with the Tuaregs and the inscriptions are often found all over the Sahara, especially the Libyan Sahara. And I am talking only about Tifinagh, not Libyco Berber which as you said, may not be related to Tifinagh at all. In my mind, the Tuareg represent the descendants of a nomadic population of Africans who were in and around the Sahara and moved across a wide area, with one main branch, the one that introduced Berber languages, coming from the East, which is the reason for the genetic ties to the Beja.
This lines up well with the theories of many linguists that Berber languages originate in the East around Sudan, Egypt and possibly Ethiopia.
The Tuareg themselves are nomadic and therefore their distribution today does not necessarily match that of 3000 years ago and as previously mentioned their genetics are tied to those of North Sudan and Southern Egypt. And it is noted in places like the book by Fentress that there were ancient Berber populations in Egypt called the Temehu who stretched between Libya and Southern Egypt and are often associated with the ancestors of the modern Beja in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
That said, modern Berber languages are strongly associated with the Libyan Tuareg and the central Sahara and points to the West. However, the history of this language is not fixed as fits a people who were ultimately nomadic pastoralists.
No matter what you read in a book the Temehu were not Berbers. The Temehu were C-Group people.Diop pointed out long ago that Eurocentrists have tried to project Berbers into the ancient history of African people.
The only genetic link of the Berbers to the east is with the Siwa Berbers who as pointed out earlier came to Siwa recently, and began to dominate the native Siwans.
I am amazed you made these statements relating to the Berber languages after Amun-Ra The Ultimate has posted evidence on the linguistic background of the Berber speakers which shows there lack of relationship to African languages. The Tuareg language is related to African languages--but not Berber.
Although I have posted numerous times comments on the origin of writing in Middle Africa you attempt to connect the Berbers to inscriptions that are spread from the Fezzan to Tichitt,that pre-date the Berber migration from Northwest Africa to Siwa.Moreover, you ignore the fact that numerous Mande speaking groups have writing in addition to Berbers. Since Tichitt was founded by Mande speakers, and the Berbers only recently migrated East, there is no way they wrote the inscriptions found from Fezzan to Tichitt.
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Clyde you are looking at the fragmented and often confusing history of the languages often identified as Berber and trying to extrapolate African identity, or in this case NON African identity, from a language group. African identity cannot be boiled down to simple categories like languages. My point is that the African nomadic pastoral tradition in North Africa is ancient probably the oldest in the world. The Sahara desert has seen movements of populations over most of its history from the South and the East of Africa because for most of human history the ONLY humans on earth were in the South and East of Africa. East Africa is the home of all humans. Therefore, humans have been migrating in and around Africa longer than they have been migrating outside of Africa. Berber languages are thought by many to have originated among populations migrating in and between the Nile Valley and the Sahara. This population, however, is simply one subset of many populations that have been moving through the Sahara and the Sahel and there are many others who speak different languages as well. Therefore the point of the C-Group relationship is that you have a population that over time expanded from the area identified as a region where the ancestors of those who eventually migrated into the Sahara speaking Berber languages originated. This isn't ONLY about language. Genetics have already affirmed that the Tuareg have close ties to the Beja nomads, who are the modern day descendants of ancient Nile Valley Africans called "C-Group", which is another foreign label. But that is just a small part of a bigger picture as can be seen in the hot debates about the origin of the various lineages in North Africa, where many are African and represent more ancient migrations of Africans from the East of Africa. Which again proves the point that all human lineages, within and outside Africa, all ultimately originate in East Africa.
So it is a combination of linguistic, cultural and genetic information that shows the roots of Berber as originating in East Africa. And because we are talking of ancient movements in Arid Desert environments among nomadic populations which means that over time populations, languages and settlements have changed. That is why most of this is about reconstructing a history for Berber languages which is fraught with so much error.
Berber languages are African and have always been African no matter how "contentious", fragmented or confused the history.
Bottom line Clyde, we know you have been trying to claim Berber languages and by extension Berber "people" are European for a long time on this forum and elsewhere, but every time, especially here your ideas have been refuted.
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yeah! Yeah. blah! Blah! Blah. Start covering your assss.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us grow while others remain in the dark ages of genetics.
Sure.
All goofing aside, The ancestral and sibling lineages aren't in North Africa; only the super derived H1, H3 and V extremity lineages. Explain the scenario in which this is the case and H1, H3 and V are still independent of any Eurasian influx. The body doesn't grow out of the extremities, now does it?
BTW, gramps, if you don't want to answer it you can just say it. Just don't engage me again if you know you don't want your precious delusions trampled.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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