Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
A good capsule of Bekada's (2013, Pereira ed.) data for our purposes is Table 2 with the Table S9 key.
Here is T2 with populations reordered from Mauritania across Mediterranean Africa to Arabia and the Levant then from Iran across Southwest Asia's mountains to the peninsulas, islands, and coast of Mediterranean Europe.
I've included, at bottom, a somewhat phylogenetic reorder of Bekada's TS9. There, are detailed, the haplogroups and the major geographies she's assigned to each one; either East Africa, Europe, Mid-East, North Africa, or West Africa.
Bekada recognizes a subclade may be of a different geography than its parent clade or that clade's upstream haplogroup(s).
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Please quote me saying North Africans have no Eurasian ancestry.
North Africans claim mostly Eurasian/Arab ancestry (ancient and recent), not just some. So who are you to say the contrary? They don't claim to be genetically affiliated to sub-Saharan Africans to a high level as you claim (beside I guess through some minimal level of admixture). Genetic studies show the same thing. But ES Tukuler has it's own little theory.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each target African group and views of them as * a Northern Africa superset * a Tamazgha subset, and * a Maghrebi core subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
This posting updates or replaces my comments on quoted Bekada non-raw data text statements made in earlier posts to this thread.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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I am not in total agreement with that quote from the Library of Congress on Mauritania but it served the purpose of explaining that Maures are not Yemenis but were conquered by them, absorbed them, and took on their lect.
You and I both know the antipathy Senegalese hold for Mauritanians is what was behind Diop claiming Yemeni ancestry for Maures as a whole.
Also you must be precise in examining Maure origins and components and not think general statements about Niger Kel Tamasheq applies to Zenaga Mauritanians.
Of course the Imazighen avoiding the Arabs were black or the most part but please don't act like you don't know that in this region non-Afasian speakers themselves do not call Imazighen black even if they're actual skin tone is as black as a cooking pot.
You do know I'm the guy who's posted info on the type of black local to North Africa for years on end. For instance see Algerian mosaics (link) and this statement from the authentic Moors thread
quote: We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows soot isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
and more info I posted on black North Africa goes unsaid.
haha yes sir, but don't paint with such a wide brush brother. You know, it is those Wolof who seem to hate Mauritania, not all Senegalese. Also, I don't know that I agree that all tamasheq reject referring to themselves as black, when they are indeed black. I have seen them with my own eyes refer to themselves as "black" and the one's I know who said it were Kel Tamasheq, not Bella. But I get your point and I do agree. What your saying is true in terms of the history. Arab Islamic scholars were invited in and taught the locals Islam. It was a native African who invited the Yemeni scholar in to help educate his people on Islam and then they turned around and provided the second wave of Moors into Spain. I would be willing to bet the Yemen contingent at first probably didn't amount to much as they were probably scholars and their families in the beginning. There were Arab scholars invited into Mali as well, and again it was them and their families, not a massive amount. So I do see your point, get your point and agree.
Here is a good video by a native Mauritanian on the history of Al Muraabitoun
posted
Beaten by the argumentation, Tukuler resort to spam this forum with posts he already made just like only 5 posts above trying to hide the part where he got his ass kicked.
ES Tukuler: North Africans are mostly genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Actual North African people and Genetics: No we aren't.
Diop and other historians : No, they aren't.
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posted
Another way to kick the ball on the sideline. Avoiding all the argumentation above, preferring to talk about fluff like my name or ridiculous stuff like that.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hey dumbass
the idea was to start this page with direct geneticist raw data relevant to the thread's header
Since I disagree with him and kicked his ass with argumentation now he resorts to insults. Typical.
ES Tukuler: North Africans are mostly genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Actual North African people and Genetics: No we aren't.
Diop and other historians : No, they aren't.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you can see where this is headed
next thing you know he'll be saying Egypt was founded by berbers, wait
Typical undercover Eurasian nut move (they were more numerous in the past). They always try to find some proxy African populations who are actually admixed with Eurasians like Horn Africans, Berbers, modern Egyptians, etc, to take away the Ancient Egyptian origin from black Africans (sub-Saharan Africans). Hence why their new obsession with Berbers, modern Egyptians and other North African populations.
Unfortunately we don't have much aDNA results about AE. But the results we have thus far are very positive to confirm the mostly black African origin (Sub-Saharan African origin) of Ancient Egyptians (E1b1a, STR alleles from JAMA and BMJ studies, DNA Tribes, etc). Archaeology, and other fields, also confirm or strongly imply the mostly indigenous African origin of AE.
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posted
As much as I like diop, he says Khaldoun is just a bunch of undocumented statements, yet he then goes on to full on conjecture. Secondly I am not sure if he knew about the white slaves imported into North Africa. Lastly Khaldoun was THERE, he saw the population of North Africa in his time, and he said besides ONE group the rest were blacks!
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The unexpected presence of the European male lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in the Mahgreb could be the male counterpart of the maternal gene flow signaled by the mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3 and HV0. In fact, there are several haplogroups with clear geographical origins from European or North African sides of the Mediterranean, but also present on the opposite side. This could be used to estimate the respective levels of gene flow between areas, assuming that their present day frequencies in the source countries were the same when they spread to the other Mediterranean shore. Thus, mean frequency values for the native North African male clusters E-M81 and E-V65 in the Maghreb [Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya], are 40.03±11.66 and 3.40±0.60 respectively. The mean values for the same markers in western-central Mediterranean Europe [Iberian Peninsula, France and Corsica, Italy, Sardinia and Sicily] are 1.86±1.28 and 0.26±0.8 respectively. Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. Applying the same reasoning, mtDNA U6 and M1 frequencies on the European side would indicate the maternal gene flow from the Maghreb, the estimated value being around 10%. However, when we tried to calculate the European maternal input into the Maghreb using the H1, H3 and HV0 haplogroups, we realized that their respective mean frequencies in Mediterranean Europe [38.33+4.31, 17.27+3.57 and 5.23+1.06] are within the same range as those found in the Maghreb [42.05+4.92, 13.1+3.51 and 6.99+0.90]. This would imply a 100% European contribution to the maternal pool of the Maghreb. The fact that the three markers show similar frequencies on both sides rules out stochastic processes as a possible explanation, but further analyses, based on complete mtDNA sequences, are mandatory to investigate alternative scenarios.
-Bekada et al 2013
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
I've included, at bottom, a somewhat phylogenetic reorder of Bekada's TS9.
You Continentals brothas need to calm down. Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
But irregardless of what the look like, Berbers are Africans. North Africans have a OLDER and more diverse clades of H/HV than Europeans. So irregardless of the beef within Africans, Berbers are Africans. Although some may think within their tiny little heads they are Europeans. But what can you expect from colonial mind...Fanon.
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You Continentals brothas need to calm down. Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
But irregardless of what the look like, Berbers are Africans. North Africans have a OLDER and more diverse clades of H/HV than Europeans. So irregardless of the beef within Africans, Berbers are Africans. Although some may think within their tiny little heads they are Europeans. But what can you expect from colonial mind...Fanon.
Many of them are Europeans, I mean thats a fact. Just as it is is fact that some are mixed with black African and European slaves. We can't erase history.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
. Consider the source. Although I tried giving ARtU benefit of doubt he's like the Lioness' equivalent.
All ES knows who inputted Hawass' data into popSTR and vindicated the results obtained by DNAtribes that everybody can still read here with back filler here.
But none of that matters to some guys.
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Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
Consider the source. Although I tried giving ARtU benefit of doubt he's just the Lioness' equivalent.
All ES knows who inputted Hawass' data into popSTR and vindicated the results obtained by DNAtribes that everybody can still read here with back filler here
But none of that matters to a fool.
All I can say Takruri is that you have made more valuable contributions to these forums then the 2 people you are debeating right now and don't let the ignorance get to you. Learning a lot just from your posts also notice the divide and conquer bull that some use in using Diop to promote there ideology.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
King
Yeah I do know better but yesterday I had time to shoot and against better judgement I did that back and forth thing.
So let me shut it down right now.
Sorry boss and sorry to all I let down.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
.
No argument from me about that see NA Bottomline (link).
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
What you written is nothing but True Zeiss. You see it around you with certain self hating Indians claiming anything other then there blackness. "No I am brown" I laugh at this because if it was the USA they would of went through the same things that happened to the Blacks and Latinos during the civil rights. Brainwashing is rife with Indians probably the most brainwashed people on this earth next to the white berbers. The good thing about Indians though is there are many who are trying to break the cycle of selfhate and you gotta commend them for trying because TRUTH IS that Indians shockingly ARE BLACK. Yeah lioness and her retarded Tut looks Indian was the dumbest thing I have read but it shows the Mentality of these people
I have a Friend thats light skinned and claims I stereotype people when I was telling her TRUTH not stereotypes, but because I did not say it political correct, she got upset. Blacks like her are quick to defend other races and not her own. I told her chinese people make chinatowns in every country they live in and are closed off from the larger communities they live in. There areas some cant even speak the lingua franca of the Country they live in and onluy speak mandarin and cantonese.
She goes to me oh I have many asian friends and there parents speak english good. Then I said to her if chinese arent closed off, then why is there things CALLED CHINATOWN in the 1st place and why are the signs on the shop majority in Chinese in an English country. Then she said oh there is little portagoal and Italy blah blah blah. I asked her in these places are there signs on these places strictly in Italian and Porotguese. I asked her a Yes and No question that she had no choice but to say YES TO BOTH QUESTIONS.
So its still there colonial minds is everywhere.
Colonial mind is why these berber people can't unite with there fellow brothers in there communities and open doors for each other instead of just for themselves. Yet when they reach there "MOTHERLAND" (France ) they are actually shocked to see how they are treated. hate begets hate. It does not work, there are better ways, but to see it through the haze is difficult for many.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: What you written is nothing but True Zeiss. You see it around you with certain self hating Indians claiming anything other then there blackness. "No I am brown" I laugh at this because if it was the USA they would of went through the same things that happened to the Blacks and Latinos during the civil rights. Brainwashing is rife with Indians probably the most brainwashed people on this earth next to the white berbers. The good thing about Indians though is there are many who are trying to break the cycle of selfhate and you gotta commend them for trying because TRUTH IS that Indians shockingly ARE BLACK. Yeah lioness and her retarded Tut looks Indian was the dumbest thing I have read but it shows the Mentality of these people [/QB]
Black Indians are not related to Africans in any significant way. They don't share significant DNA or historic link with black African people like Yoruba, Wolof, Dinka, Zulu, etc. At least not more than European people for example.
It's not about semantic. If we call black Indians populations, the A group and Sub-Saharan African populations the B group. We would see only limited DNA linkage between the A and B group and thus limited historical linkage. Black Indians never cluster with African people on autosomal genetic studies. Same thing with Berbers. If we call them the A group and Sub-Saharan Africans the B group. Then we would see limited DNA linkage between the A group and the B group thus limited historical linkage. Although Berber populations, even Berber with pale skin, are much closer to African than black Indians populations (due to higher level of admixture since they are geographically closer).
Obviously all those things have repercussion in the medical field since some diseases affect more some group of people who are genetically related than others.
But it also have repercussion in the historic/archaeological field. To know for example what part of the culture is related to shared origin (like archaeological assemblage, artifact like headrests,languages, etc) or to something else. Or simply to follow population movements along the years.
I just want to repeat that it's not about semantic or politic. Any citizen of an African country including Europeans, Arabs, Berbers or people of any origin have full ownership right on the continent. It's about tracing the true history of people and their linkage to one another.
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Do you consider Africans of partial Euro descent to be European?
I mean yeah many many coastal Maghrebis in fact have Euro mommies.
Does that discount the fact that native Maghrebi foundational roots are Paleolithic African? Admitting that doesn't mean native Maghrebis have no Euro or Arab admixture. It's quite obvious they are heavily mixed.
A people P1 - in Africa P2 - of a foundational African root and P3 - (originally) speaking an African language are, in my opinion, C - an African people.
Their religion and (current) language orientation to the Mid-East and neglect of issues and matters not of North Africa cannot and does not change the facts of their biology. Overall Maghrebis are Africans.
I am assuming this is addressed to me? My Great Grandmother was Hausa, but I am not Hausa, that just is what it is. Can I say I have a blood relation to them? Well yeah, sure. At the end of the day though, I am not Hausa, nor do I expect they would welcome me as such. Same for those half castes in the north. They belong to where ever their slave mothers or fathers came from, or if they are Arabs, then well they belong to Arabia, not to Africa. I know these people to well, they do not consider themselves Africans, so to speak. Its the "I am African BUT" syndrome with these people. They should be rounded up and shown the door. Its like those half caste Egyptians who want to put a claim on Kemet. You can't have it both ways. Either you fully admit your foundation is black African and you are admixed or you don't. You can't embrace the glory days and deny the bad times. I guess that is the difference. I am black like the oil, so my skin doesn't wash off. I can't play the white role with Europeans and modern day Arabs, and then put on my black robe with my African brothers.
But I do get your point in terms of Genetics, I mean the DNA make up is the DNA make up. We can't deny that. But there is a historical and cultural component to all this. Don't get me wrong, i don't hate half castes. Some of my best friends are half castes from North Africa (Im lying, just wanted to say that, it sounds funny lol). But no seriously, I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for Brother Ghadaffi. But, I don't agree that these guys are "African" so to speak. A African is a black man, and a half caste is a half caste. I don't adhere to the Keita rubbish that there were always Africans looking like half castes and Europeans, complete rubbish.
Those blacks in the north like our Tawargha Brothers, Libyan Songhai, Black Tamashaq, Siwani, Beja, Nuba, Tebu, Dongali and others, those are true Africans, they are true northerners. The other ones, well not so much.
Look, can we say Obama is a European? No way. He has European blood yes, but his culture, physical appearance and a host of other things show he is a black man, and he counts himself as such. It is no different. We can't force people into a category that they don't belong.
You nailed it in that first post on that thread you linked. The thing is, for TRUE africans to understand how these half caste got there. Once they understand that, then they can understand the African contribution to the world, because now, culture thieves, like Europeans and half castes can not deny us our history. Africans can understand that all the stuff you see built in North Africa is ours.
Using this information to convince half castes of their Africaninity, or trying to get them to embrace Africa is useless. One day, they will need Africa and Africa will not show them love. We saw that with those savage Hyksos.
You know though, I can not blame half caste and Europeans. They have no history, other than relatively recent, so I guess it is flattering for them to want to still African history. With that said though, Africans need to start doing more field work and publishing and bypassing Western centered academic circles. I read in some study from Rice University, that something like 80% of Africa is still on taped, in terms of archeology. One researcher said when you fly over parts of Africa, you can see old stone cities from the plane, but because it is now over grown, you cant really get in and do research. Africans need to step up and research it. There also needs to be a full on effort to un mask what is lying under the sahara. I am convinced something marvelous is there.
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quote:Originally posted by KING: What you written is nothing but True Zeiss. You see it around you with certain self hating Indians claiming anything other then there blackness. "No I am brown" I laugh at this because if it was the USA they would of went through the same things that happened to the Blacks and Latinos during the civil rights. Brainwashing is rife with Indians probably the most brainwashed people on this earth next to the white berbers. The good thing about Indians though is there are many who are trying to break the cycle of selfhate and you gotta commend them for trying because TRUTH IS that Indians shockingly ARE BLACK. Yeah lioness and her retarded Tut looks Indian was the dumbest thing I have read but it shows the Mentality of these people
Black Indians are not related to Africans in any significant way. They don't share significant DNA or historic link with black African people like Yoruba, Wolof, Dinka, Zulu, etc. At least not more than European people for example.
It's not about semantic. If we call black Indians populations, the A group and Sub-Saharan African populations the B group. We would see only limited DNA linkage between the A and B group and thus limited historical linkage. Black Indians never cluster with African people on autosomal genetic studies. Same thing with Berbers. If we call them the A group and Sub-Saharan Africans the B group. Then we would see limited DNA linkage between the A group and the B group thus limited historical linkage. Although Berber populations, even Berber with pale skin, are much closer to African than black Indians populations (due to higher level of admixture since they are geographically closer).
Obviously all those things have repercussion in the medical field since some diseases affect more some group of people who are genetically related than others.
But it also have repercussion in the historic/archaeological field. To know for example what part of the culture is related to shared origin (like archaeological assemblage, artifact like headrests,languages, etc) or to something else. Or simply to follow population movements along the years.
I just want to repeat that it's not about semantic or politic. Any citizen of an African country including Europeans, Arabs, Berbers or people of any origin have full ownership right on the continent. It's about tracing the true history of people and their linkage to one another. [/QB]
Listen man.
I said INDIANS ARE BLACK. They are. Could careless about there affiliation to Africans.
These people ARE BLACK: Africans, Indians, Fijians, Melanesian, Australian Aborigines, Malaysians, Original Hawaiians, Original Polynesians, Original Filipinos, Original Thais,.
Don't like it TOO Bad. Its Truth. Genes are genes son. ALL THESE PEOPLE WOULD OF SAT AT THE BACK OF THE BUS IN USA CUNTRY. Image is something that people are still stuck on. True people try to change that, sadly those who want to change that get shouted down and mocked by people who hang onto there color because aside from that, they see no value in there lifes.
Berbers get a wake up call when they go to France, Let me ask you this.
Are Africans and Berbers owners of Europe's continent?
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Are Africans and Berbers owners of Europe's continent?
Of course. European people of African, Asian, Arab and Berber origin have full ownership right on the continent as any citizen of European countries.
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posted
Listen. We can disagree but we have to calm down.
Brada..you got this?
I rely on scientific data FIRST. Some may not like what the data shows but....
Keita agrees with me. All scientific data has supported what I said. European looking people have been on the continent of Africa from the very beginning. The anthropoligical and genetic data supports this...too bad.
Some of you are so dumb and can't see beyond your noses. Do you understand the premise of the Bekada study? I hate dumbing it down to my black brothas.
I will give you a hint - Bekada, Henn, etc most geneticist are trying to explain the presence of Berbers in North Africa. They are trying to give them a seat at the "Caucasian" table.
Bekada is trying to find the male conterpart of the supposedly "European" female that entered Africa 12000ya. They are caught in their web of lies and finding it difficult to get out.
Come on people think!!!!!
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posted
From TP. Caucasoids in SSA. You guys are believing the lie. That all SSA look alike.
In case you are not keeping up. Up to 5000BC all Europeans were black.
They are also admitting that light skin is new to the world. Notice that East Asians, Native americans(who are also light) have zero SLC45A2 mutation but Yurobans have the mutation. La Brana man did not carry the mutation. Put it together man....tic toc.
quote:"others like Predomost and to a lesser degree Grimaldi and Teviec, are more prognathic like Skhul 5."
--Marta Mirazón Lahr. 2005. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity:
Detailed information on metrics :
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Claudio Ottoni 2010
Indeed, Moroccans and Tunisians, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices.
________________________________________
^^^ this means Moroccans and Tunisians have the highest diversity of H >>> WITHIN AFRICA
but not the highest diversity of H in the world
the context of the quote:
An arrival from Iberia explains the extent of H1 variation observed in North African populations (Table 2). Indeed, Moroccans and Tunisians, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices. ( the consideration - H within North Africa )
Morocco and Tunisia have higher frequencies than Libya. Why? They are closer to Europe
further:
Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago,
^^^arrival time of hap H FROM Europe TO North Africa
It is thought to have evolved in the vicinity of the Near East ∼23,000–28,000 years ago, and to have spread into Europe ∼20,000 years ago.
Often xyyman cites articles and comes up with his won mis-conclusions
As expected, the North African-specific clades are characterized by younger ages ranging from about 3.8 to 6.7 kya for H1v, and from 2.1 to 7.9 kya for H1v1. The youngest clades were found to be H1w and H1x, with an age of about 0.8–1.1 kya.
So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.
posted
You are sneaky little punk aren't you? That is not the study I am referring to. "Pillars of Hercules" is my source.
On one hand Ottoni, Achilli etc uses coalescance age estimation and NOT genomic haplotypes. To come up with their conclusion. Diversity/Haplotypes trumps frequency and the erratic method of coalescence age estimation.
And it was cited in this thread'
We discussed this already.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You are sneaky little punk aren't you? That is not the study I am referring to. "Pillars of Hercules" is my source.
On one hand Ottoni, Achilli etc uses coalescance age estimation and NOT genomic haplotypes. To come up with their conclusion. Diversity/Haplotypes trumps frequency and the erratic method of coalescence age estimation.
And it was cited in this thread'
We discussed this already.
So your source that the greatest diversity in the world of Haplogoup H is in North Africa is the Pillars of Herculus ?
Somebody wrote it on the pillar?
Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa Hajer Ennafaa1
The haplogroup H represents 44% of the mtDNA variation in the Iberian Peninsula, but only 22% in the Near East. Likewise, this distribution still reaches 25% in North Africa, but drops to only 9% in the Arabian Peninsula.
That Palaeolithic expansion would explain the notorious presence of H1 and H3 detected mainly in the most North-western populations of North Africa and the decrease in their frequency eastwards. However, if this hypothesis held, the comparatively high diversity of H1 and H3 in North Africa would point to an important Palaeolithic gene flow from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa across the Strait of Gibraltar. On the contrary, a consensus exists regarding the Near East origin of the bulk of the Y-chromosome and mtDNA North African lineages. However, discrepancies still exists with respect to the time in which these settlements most probably occurred. In the first Y-chromosome pioneering studies of the region, a Palaeolithic settlement for the autochthonous E-M81 clade was hypothesized in accordance with the age proposed based on classical markers [30]. However, later studies have assigned this, and other subclades derived from E-M78, that are particularly abundant in North Africa, a Neolithic or even historic settlement age and a Near East or Northeast African source [63,31-34]. On the other hand, for those mtDNA haplogroups pre-eminent in North Africa, that have been analyzed at deep genomic and phylogeographic levels, such as U6 and M1, a Palaeolithic settlement and Middle East roots have been proposed [11,13,14]. From our data, it can be also deduced that the presence of the H1 and H3 subgroups in North Africa could have similar expansion times as in Europe and, therefore, a late Palaeolithic settlement in the region. Finally, it should be noted that the different levels of gene flow detected throughout the Strait of Gibraltar
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Clearly we can see that mtDNA haplogroups TUV are the product of back migration into Africa (a very long time ago). They are all descendants of the N haplogroup (and R) which originates in population who left Africa after the main OOA migration. Then migrated back into Africa a very long time ago. Then they admixed between themselves, with other (sub-Saharan) Africans and with Western Asians (Arabs). They obviously have ownership right on the continent (as any citizen of African country for that matter) but they are still the product of 3 different ancestral origin. European, Eurasian and African. A nice mix.
Using autosomal DNA they tend to cluster with Eurasian more. Same as culturally. If you ask them they would also say the same thing in general; They feel they are part of the Middle Eastern/Mediterranean cultural field.
Do you have anthropological and archeological evidence of these suppose back migrations?
Successes and failures of human dispersals from North Africa (2011)
Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages
(B) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, L5, L2, L3, M, and N in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies.
--Mary Katherine Gonder*, Holly M. Mortensen*, Floyd A. Reed*, Alexandra de Sousa†‡ and Sarah A. Tishkoff*
Hg N, see Fig.3:
--Tishkoff S A , M. K. Gonder, B. M. Henn, H. Mortensen, A. Knight, C. Gignoux, N. Fernandopulle, G. Lema, T. B. Nyambo, U. Ramakrishnan, et al.(2007).History of Click-Speaking Populations of Africa Inferred from mtDNA and Y Chromosome Genetic Variation. Mol. Biol. Evol., 24(10): 2180 - 2195.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Another way to kick the ball on the sideline. Avoiding all the argumentation above, preferring to talk about fluff like my name or ridiculous stuff like that.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hey dumbass
the idea was to start this page with direct geneticist raw data relevant to the thread's header
Since I disagree with him and kicked his ass with argumentation now he resorts to insults. Typical.
ES Tukuler: North Africans are mostly genetically related to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Actual North African people and Genetics: No we aren't.
Diop and other historians : No, they aren't.
That's odd, because the Moroccan Berbers I know claim indigenous situ to Northwest Africa. This includes the light skinned as well.
quote:The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago
--Frigi et al.
quote:No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
[...]
Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote:Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
quote: “..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Sour grapes and knashing of teeth can't alter the statistical fact of Bekada's raw data.
So go on and whine, whine, whine. Just remember YOU were the one who blurted out "Berbers are not primarily African" without gender qualification. You could've easily retracted or precisioned yourself. Instead you resort to face saving tactics because for you it's more important to be right than to learn.
Bekada is not the be all and the end all. We will go on examining raw data from other recent studies for revelations. We will accept their geographic hg assignments as given nor quibble over sampling bias so to let the professional academic population geneticists stats speak without spin or interpretation.
At the end we will see what the combined overall results conclude. Whatever they come down to we will accept them and not whine over if they uphold a priori personal opinion.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Keep things in perspective, yes, the master has made valuable contribution,, but ARTU and TyepZeiss has made contributions also.
ARTU was the one who posted those never before scene images of AEians. Granted he may be a little niave and is getting ahead of himself thinking he has grasp on genetics. But...his heart is in the right place.
Please...no short memories.
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Sage never said Berbers founded AE. He never said AEians were anything but indigenous Africans. Genetically discovered to be SSA.
Consider the source. Although I tried giving ARtU benefit of doubt he's just the Lioness' equivalent.
All ES knows who inputted Hawass' data into popSTR and vindicated the results obtained by DNAtribes that everybody can still read here with back filler here
But none of that matters to a fool.
All I can say Takruri is that you have made more valuable contributions to these forums then the 2 people you are debeating right now and don't let the ignorance get to you. Learning a lot just from your posts also notice the divide and conquer bull that some use in using Diop to promote there ideology.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
I haven't checked all the figures. They nearly the same. I did find this error
Bekada
MOROCCO Y DNA NA 73.9 EA 5.8 WA 7.0
tot 86.7
Tukular tot 89.7
Neverthless there is only a few points difference, Tukular has added mt and Y and called it uniparental
____________________________________
The berbers are part Eurasian and this goes back to prehistoric times. But according to these Bekada figures, on the whole Maghrebians while part Eurasian the are primarily in the majority sense, African, primarily African Diop, Clyde, Amun Ra and lioness are wrong.
_________________________________
looking at some of the popualtion figures:
Egypt 84,605,000
Algeria 38,295,000
Morocco 32,950,000
Tunisia 10,889,000
Libya 6,323,000
Mauritania 3,461,000
Western Sahara 650,000
However the berbers are probably even more African than the population of these countries on the whole.
The thing that is really weighing the scales toward Africa is E-M81
highest E-M81 frequencies
Chenini–Douiret, Tunisia, Berbers, 100%
Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%
Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%
Tunisia/Bou Omrane 87.5
Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%
^^^^ I invite people to try to find out what these people look like. There is a point at which you take what you know about the DNA and check out the actual people. Those particular Tunisian groups are perhaps the most African
However look how they look. It doesn't matter to the DNA, some of them are near 100% Y DNA African add to that mt DNA which might be around 40%. That's primarily African and these are Tunisans not the Tuareg further south
Revisit the Siwa, they are perhaps an outlier berber group and have nearly no M81 (E1b1b1b) But they have, according to the below chart B2a1a_____28.0 and R1b1*_____26.9
That African B is not found in the other Berber groups, nor much if any R1b1* They have a bit of J also Some of the Hap B input is probably Sudanese.
This fits with the Bekada in that Egyptians are primarily Eurasian --However Siwa are a very small population within Egypt, they are probably more African than the average Egyptian, although less so than other berbers. But to complicate things more direct to an East African component
______________________________
How do we look at Haplogroup E-M81 ??
wiki:
Arredi et al. 2004 believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic "demic diffusion" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 may also have been carried into its currently most common region together with a form of proto-Afroasiatic. On the basis of these possible links, the men who brought E-M81 into northwestern Africa may therefore have come from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". But there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in [North Africa, or possibly as far south as the Horn of Africa
__________________
It's disputed by Arredi however evidence is weighing toward East African origin
Not every Tunisian berber group has M81 this high:
Chenini–Douiret, Tunisia, Berbers, 100%
Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%
Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%
^^^^ but if M81 is East African derived from M35 it might be reasonable to expect these groups to look largely East African
Here's the thing>
If M81 came from the Horn descending from M35 we can look at the chart for E-M35 that's formerly known as E3b aka E1b1b1
Why isn't that much higher in Siwa? 6.5
Here's the Arredi piece, juts posting for the alternate point of view, I don't necessirly agree
We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
In conclusion, we propose that the Y-chromosomal genetic structure observed in North Africa is mainly the result of an expansion of early food-producing societies. Moreover, following Arioti and Oxby (1997), we speculate that the economy of those societies relied initially more on herding than on agriculture, because pastoral economies probably supported lower numbers of individuals, thus favoring genetic drift, and showed more mobility than agriculturalists, thus allowing gene flow. Some authors believe that languages families are unlikely to be >10 KY old and that their diffusion was associated with the diffusion of agriculture (Diamond and Bellwood 2003). Since most of the languages spoken in North Africa and in nearby parts of Asia belong to the Afro-Asiatic family (Ruhlen 1991), this expansion could have involved people speaking a proto–Afro-Asiatic language. These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.
__________________________
On the other hand....
Deep Into the Roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A Genetic Survey of Their Paternal Heritage
Claudio Ottoni et al. 2011
Analysis of the microsatellite variation in E1b1a8 and E1b1b1b (Fig. 2a,b) provides more clues about the history of these haplogroups in the Libyan Tuareg. The high diversity of E1b1b1b as opposed to the sharp homogeneity of E1b1a points to a more complex history of E1b1b1b in the Libyan Tuareg, suggesting that this might represent the original paternal genetic matrix of the Tuareg villages in Fezzan. More information about the origin of the Tuareg E1b1b1b chromosomes is given by the analysis of STR variation in Northern African populations (Supporting Information Fig. S1). It is likely that most of the Tuareg E1b1b1b Y-chromosomes (i.e., 13 out of 23, 57%) are related to an expansion event that took place about 2.6 kya in an ancestral population inhabiting a region between Tunisia and the Central Sahara. This event may have coincided with an expansion that led to the formation of derived Tunisian and Central Saharan populations, with the latter, in turn, contributing to the paternal genetic pool of the Tuareg villages in Fezzan.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel
In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.
act The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ~9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ~10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ~6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I haven't checked all the figures. They nearly the same. I did find this error
Bekada
MOROCCO Y DNA NA 73.9 EA 5.8 WA 7.0
tot 86.7
Tukular tot 89.7
How did Jimi put it? If 6 was 9?
Wish more people would cross examine my stuff for inaccuracies. It's a boon.
I will have to recalculate everything and wait a day later and do it again so as to leave time enough to approach the data fresh. Until then disregard my table.
One thing I miss about old school anthropology is the photos. I know there are too many samples involved for geneticists to do that but still representative types would be nice. I think it'd help show SNPs and STRs are not necessarily predictive of a general expected phenotypical look.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The thing that is really weighing the scales toward Africa is E-M81
highest E-M81 frequencies
Chenini–Douiret, Tunisia, Berbers, 100%
Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%
Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%
Tunisia/Bou Omrane 87.5
Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%
Those frequencies should not be aligned with Bekada who gives her own Y freq aggregates for Tunisia, Algeria, et al., not skewed to a bunch of individual Tunisian sites and the Mzabis only.
The primary Berber Y chromosome is E-M81 that's why it's well known as the "Berber specific marker," agreeing with my idea that the Berbers are primarily local African. Local = north.
And, yes, E-M81 is the dominating Y haplogroup and it is African and what's wrong with that? Just as J1-M267 is the weightiest AfroAsian Y and ranks with the other non-African nrY HGs.
So what?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
OK, here is my corrected table analyzing Bekada's Table 2 for African vs Eurasian frequencies with my North Africa, Berber, and core Maghreb breakdowns.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, here is my corrected table analyzing Bekada's Table 2 for African vs Eurasian frequencies with my North Africa, Berber, and core Maghreb breakdowns.
More interesting stuff,
quote: In addition, Bayesian skyline analysis of 328 complete L3 sequences and founder analysis of 2,359 L3 hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) sequences enabled us to infer both local demographic expansions and migrations within Africa.
[...]
The diversification of L3 in Eastern Africa began early, as demonstrated by the ages of L3a and L3h (fig. 1), both of which are virtually specific to this region (fig. 3A). The BSP for Eastern Africa (supplementary fig. S6, Supplementary Material online) alone rises most steeply only after 40 ka (table 1), but the plot shows a progressive increase from before 50 ka. Accordingly, the scan of HVS-I diversity of founder L3 lineages in Eastern Africa showed a peak at ∼58.8 ka (corresponding to nearly three quarters of the L3 data in Eastern Africa; table 2), followed by a second peak at ∼1.8 ka.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
While there's great fanfare over the Eurasian mtDNA in pre-Holocene Maghreb, not only is L played down it has been outright denied as a Maurusian founder. That lie must be corrected.
L3 was definitely in 12k Taforalt (Kefi). Frigi says it was in Tunisia since 20k. That's at Maurusian industry beginnings.
Cerezo (2012) posits three L clades for Europe spanning LUP to early mid- Holocene.
Some propose direct migration from West Africa. Alternately, they could've been in North Africa, especially considering pre-Green Sahara climatic condition obstacles.
: Ibero-Maurusian
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posted
No L migrated from SSA to Southern Europe bypassing the Magreb. Lol! Even Achilli et al 2012 admitted its presence in Europe at least late Holocene. Why are you losing sleep arguing with a nobody?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who's arguing? It's called knowledge flow.
You know how assumptions go. All L must be SSA sub-Saharan African. No thought some is SSA supra-Saharan African. L3 is doubtlessly Pan-African.
At least they're not making the old homebody non-explorer assumption about "black Africans."
Straight travel from sub-Sahara Africa to Europe means they had to know that a Europe was even there for them to go to.
But why would pre-Holocenes settle Europe and never do the same in the Maghreb? How'd they bypass Sahara and Maghreb without Senegal Airlines?
And indeed why assume Europe bound L ancestresses were even from that far south? For the early to mid Holocene era why not South Morocco/West Sahara/ North Mauritania or even somewhere in Algeria as the starting terminal?.
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posted
Agreed. SSA is a new term. Occupation was probably mostly in the Sahara.
Quote: "Straight travel from sub-Sahara Africa to Europe means they had to know that a Europe was even there for them to go to."
I am not sure they "knew" Europe was there. But remember they were Hunter gatherers. Maybe they did.
It was more about hunting and gathering food.
If you follow the recent discovery of Loschbour man, the hunter gather. These migrations take 1000's of years over several generations. New Migrants bringing new culture and customs. Stuttgart woman being one of the most advance. Note her burial setup is very advance and grave goods were very prominent. Unlike Motola man..with heads on a stick.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
But Clyde when you look at the frequencies of these haplogoups in bebers the case could be made that many berber groups are half or more African. Diop didn't have access to more recent research so not everything he said is necessarilly right
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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