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Author Topic: DNATribes North African Region
the lioness,
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^^^^ reasonable but if you are looking at a pie chart and a section of the chart relates to a genetic affinity the chart is not intended to indicate where in the country such people are. And there are also recent sub saharan migrants.

quote:
Originally poested by Troll Patrol:
The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

I don't think anybody here is that qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I find that Moncef Marzouki somewhat odd looking.

I put this up earlier:
 -

this is my guess as to what average Tunisians, the majority of people look like, within this range we see.
I think people would have to agree with me the fact that some of have the highest M81 yet the Tunisians berbers are not the most African looking of berbers. It's a very small country in terms of land mass. If you compare it to Libya or Algeria the whole country could be described as "coastal" on a relative basis.
yet their population is 10.6 mil and Libya which looks about ten times larger only has 6.4 mil.
And this follows the pattern of the drying of the sahara

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.


 -

I agree that the South of Arabia is an extension of Africa. Dana has posted an amount of this, from a historic perspective. And we now have the Nubian complex.


Does DNA-tribe mean E-M81 by " Saharan-Arabian", because this would seem most logic compared to the info I've posted, when looking at the values and percentages.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ reasonable but if you are looking at a pie chart and a section of the chart relates to a genetic affinity the chart is not intended to indicate where in the country such people are. And there are also recent sub saharan migrants.

quote:
Originally poested by Troll Patrol:
The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

I don't think anybody here is that qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I find that Moncef Marzouki somewhat odd looking.

I put this up earlier:
 -

this is my guess as to what average Tunisians, the majority of people look like, within this range we see.
I think people would have to agree with me the fact that some of have the highest M81 yet the Tunisians berbers are not the most African looking of berbers. It's a very small country in terms of land mass. If you compare it to Libya or Algeria the whole country could be described as "coastal" on a relative basis.
yet their population is 10.6 mil and Libya which looks about ten times larger only has 6.4 mil.
And this follows the pattern of the drying of the sahara

You are right, you're not qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I however am.

May I remind you that at the at the root level is sub-clade Y E-M96, in over more than 80%. If you look at the morphology in these maven, on that picture, you can trace typical African features.


Sidekick, my dad has been to Tunis several times, they took him for a local, while the white people he was with weren't mistaken for locals ( speaking sticking out). My dad looks somewhat like the darker man with the Fes, in the corner of the picture. The guy in the middle with the black T-shirt looks somewhat like a cousin of mine.

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xyyman
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Great post of picture. This is what I visualize the Berbers look like..Never been there but most likely these are the people researchers test as indigenous North Africans.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL


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Ish Gebor
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I think these "researcher"/ "geneticist" don't even accumulate them as indigenous/ berbers. From a Eurocentric point if view Berbers are supposed to be different looking in the first place. Hence, Lion'S et al..


Here is a documentary on Tunis and her spring revolution.
By a Dutch journalist/ former politician. And some point some of the Tunisians plan on harming him and his team, 11th minute. I hope you can see it, and that it's not blocked to region. Let me know about it.

http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1251858


The Aterian and its place in the North African Middle Stone Age (2012)

quote:
Description: Publication year: 2012 Source:Quaternary International Eleanor M.L. Scerri The Aterian is a frequently cited manifestation of the Middle Stone Age (MSA) of North Africa, yet its character and meaning have remained largely opaque, as attention has focused almost exclusively on the typology of ‘tanged’, or ‘pedunculated’, lithics. Observations of technological similarities between the Aterian and other regional technocomplexes suggest that the Aterian should be considered within the wider context of the North African MSA and not as an isolated phenomenon. This paper critically reviews the meaning and history of research of the Aterian. This highlights a number of serious issues with definitions and interpretations of this technocomplex, ranging from a lack of definitional consensus to problems with the common view of the Aterian as a ‘desert adaptation’. Following this review, the paper presents the results of a quantitative study of six North African MSA assemblages (Aterian, Nubian Complex and ‘MSA’). Correspondence and Principal Components Analyses are applied, which suggest that the patterns of similarity and difference demonstrated do not simplistically correlate with traditional divisions between named industries. These similarity patterns are instead structured geographically and it is suggested that they reflect a population differentiation that cannot be explained by isolation and distance alone. Particular results include the apparent uniqueness of Haua Fteah compared to all the other assemblages and the observation that the Aterian in northeast Africa is more similar to the Nubian in that region than to the Aterian in the Maghreb. The study demonstrates the existence of population structure in the North African MSA, which has important implications for t he evolutionary dynamics of modern human dispersals.
http://waesearch.kobv.de/uid.do;jsessionid=E81786F9CAFC76A81FC261E6C578626C?query=rss_feeds_1818205&pageid=1347942796202-9619325052468898

Nubia Complex strategies in the Egyptian high desert

http://www.academia.edu/1590718/Nubian_Complex_strategies_in_the_Egyptian_high_desert


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Great post of picture. This is what I visualize the Berbers look like..Never been there but most likely these are the people researchers test as indigenous North Africans.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL



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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.


 -

I agree that the South of Arabia is an extension of Africa. Dana has posted an amount of this, from a historic perspective. And we now have the Nubian complex.


Does DNA-tribe mean E-M81 by " Saharan-Arabian", because this would seem most logic compared to the info I've posted, when looking at the values and percentages.

It's disappointing to see this error continuing. The chart is not describing a spread from each of these regions.
What is listed as "Saharan Arabian" does not mean the intent behind these charts is to show a flow from the Sahahra to Arabia. One look at the history one of the incoming migrations was a major contribution coming in from Arabia with the Islamic conquests of the Maghreb.
it is an admixture chart. That means contributions coming in from without not spreading from.
This chart is not an OOA chart it is a descritpion of the make upo of the modern day Maghreb and an influx of variety of Arabs and Arabized ethnicities incl Syrians etc. moving across the region beginnng with Egypt. As well Portugese in the region and a Phoenician cities centuries before

If you want to go that route just eleminate the Levant and Arabia and call it North East Africa. You know more about genetics than dana does and as for history she has recently been advocating an author who belives that the bible took place in Arabia, the Phoenicians were really form Arabia, there were two Jesus', they both came from Arabia and the guy running the show was a human being named Allah.

That's why I'm needed. I can sniff out that stuff like catnip

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

J1 developed in the Southern Levant and is likely "Semitic" in origin. It has remained situated primarily in Middle Eastern populations and in Northern African Arab populations. Rare in Europeans, with the exception of Jewish Europeans, who have it at a frequency of 14-18%.

Haplogroup J-P209 is believed to have arisen roughly 31,700 years ago in Southwest Asia (31,700±12,800 years ago according to Semino 2004).


Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area.

Semino
O, Magri C, Benuzzi G, Lin AA, Al-Zahery N, Battaglia V, Maccioni L, Triantaphyllidis C, Shen P, Oefner PJ, Zhivotovsky LA, King R, Torroni A, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS.
Source
Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita di Pavia, 27100 Pavia, Italy. semino@ipvgen.unipv.it

Abstract
The phylogeography of Y-chromosome haplogroups E (Hg E) and J (Hg J) was investigated in >2400 subjects from 29 populations, mainly from Europe and the Mediterranean area but also from Africa and Asia. The observed 501 Hg E and 445 Hg J samples were subtyped using 36 binary markers and eight microsatellite loci. Spatial patterns reveal that (1). the two sister clades, J-M267 and J-M172, are distributed differentially within the Near East, North Africa, and Europe; (2). J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people; (3). E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and its presence in Iberia and Sicily is due to recent gene flow from North Africa; (4). J-M172(xM12) distribution is consistent with a Levantine/Anatolian dispersal route to southeastern Europe and may reflect the spread of Anatolian farmers; and (5). E-M78 (for which microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin) and, to a lesser extent, J-M12(M102) lineages would trace the subsequent diffusion of people from the southern Balkans to the west. A 7%-22% contribution of Y chromosomes from Greece to southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis.

M81 reveals recent gene flow from North Africa. Distinct histories of J-M267* lineages are suggested: an expansion from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe and a more-recent diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa

You are truly shyt for brain. I have posted recent studies proving that E-M81 is of East African origin. I have shown the pattern, explained the pattern.

Yet, you keep repeating yourself like a broken record.

It's truly amazing how stupid you are!

E-M81 is local to Northwest Africa. So is the language and culture. The E* sub-clade that back migrated is E-M34, as was shown to you countless of times. Even on the extensive map, of which you complaint and cried a river.


quote:
However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.

—Trombetta (2011)


Guess what, the Tuareg carry E-V68 and older clades of E-M81.


Guess what, you are a desperate racist, so you try to take the entire E-M81 out of Africa, in hopes to win the arguments. LOL

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.


 -

I agree that the South of Arabia is an extension of Africa. Dana has posted an amount of this, from a historic perspective. And we now have the Nubian complex.


Does DNA-tribe mean E-M81 by " Saharan-Arabian", because this would seem most logic compared to the info I've posted, when looking at the values and percentages.

It's disappointing to see this error continuing. The chart is not describing a spread from each of these regions.
What is listed as "Saharan Arabian" does not mean the intent behind these charts is to show a flow from the Sahahra to Arabia. One look at the history one of the incoming migrations was a major contribution coming in from Arabia with the Islamic conquests of the Maghreb.
it is an admixture chart. That means contributions coming in from without not spreading from.
This chart is not an OOA chart it is a descritpion of the make upo of the modern day Maghreb and an influx of variety of Arabs and Arabized ethnicities incl Syrians etc. moving across the region beginnng with Egypt. As well Portugese in the region and a Phoenician cities centuries before

If you want to go that route just eleminate the Levant and Arabia and call it North East Africa. You know more about genetics than dana does and as for history she has recently been advocating an author who belives that the bible took place in Arabia, the Phoenicians were really form Arabia, there were two Jesus', they both came from Arabia and the guy running the show was a human being named Allah.

That's why I'm needed. I can sniff out that stuff like catnip

quote:
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
-Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula, 2008.

Khaled K Abu-Amero et al.


quote:
The first hint of the Nubian Complex extending into southern Arabia was documented by Inizan and Ortlieb [31], who illustrate three cores from Wadi Muqqah in western Hadramaut, Yemen, with Nubian Type 1 and Type 2 technological features. More recently, Crassard [32] presents a handful of Levallois point cores exhibiting Nubian Type 1 preparation from Wadi Wa'shah, central Hadramaut, Yemen.
quote:
Two pathways are commonly considered: the northern dispersal route postulates population movement from northeast Africa across the Sinai Peninsula into the Levant through the ‘Levantine Corridor.’ Alternatively (or concurrently), the southern dispersal route describes a demographic expansion through the ‘Arabian Corridor’, from the Horn of Africa across the southern Red Sea into Yemen.
quote:
Subsequent population bottlenecks from MIS 4 to MIS 2 are likely to have culled most of the founding populations in Arabia, which might be consistent with the rare presence of undifferentiated L3* lineages in Yemen [100]. Moreover, traces of the primarily East African haplogroup L4 have been reported in southern Arabia, with coalescence age estimates around 95 ka [98]. Unfortunately, little is known of this clade at present; too few L4 haplotypes have been observed to draw any conclusive phylogeographic inferences.
-The Nubian Complex of Dhofar, Oman: An African Middle Stone Age Industry in Southern Arabia, 2012.


Jeffrey I. Rose et al.


 -

Now, stop wasting our time. We are trying to be progressive, not repetitive.

The more you post, the more you show that you are not what you've claimed to be.

Thanks for your time.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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I just made a long post in reply that just got deleted. I will try it again.

quote:
It's disappointing to see this error continuing. The chart is not describing a spread from each of these regions.
What is listed as "Saharan Arabian" does not mean the intent behind these charts is to show a flow from the Sahahra to Arabia. One look at the history one of the incoming migrations was a major contribution coming in from Arabia with the Islamic conquests of the Maghreb.
it is an admixture chart. That means contributions coming in from without not spreading from.
This chart is not an OOA chart it is a descritpion of the make upo of the modern day Maghreb and an influx of variety of Arabs and Arabized ethnicities incl Syrians etc. moving across the region beginnng with Egypt. As well Portugese in the region and a Phoenician cities centuries before
[/QB]

While the directionality of the genetic flow cannot be directly devised from the DNA Tribes admixture table. We can see the ethnic groups which are more representative of what I will call the coastal North African-Arabian group cluster (called Saharan-Arabia by DNA Tribes) are Libya with 89.4%, North Morocco with 89.2% and Saharawi with 88.9%. On the other side of the Sinai Desert we got the Jewish Yemen with 71.9% and Bedouin Negev Desert Israel with 69.3% as most representative of the North African-Arabian cluster. All taken from the Nine Continental Zones Admixture table above. So those DNA Tribes tables would support a gene flow from North Africa toward the Middle East or at least a bi-directional gene flow between North Africa and the Near East (Arabia).

We know on the male line that Middle Eastern people got around 10% of African E-78 (E-M35) DNA. They also got some level of E-M2. Many coastal North Africans got above 80% of African E-M35 (E-M81). Particularly Berbers. On the MtDNA female line, the case is a bit different with a higher prevalence of non-African DNA in North Africans (for example, Mozabite with 82.2%) . So maybe DNA Tribes with their analysis of autosomal/nonsex SNPs found the middle ground between those.

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xyyman
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I will look was it later. On the road now.....

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
I think these "researcher"/ "geneticist" don't even accumulate them as indigenous/ berbers. From a Eurocentric point if view Berbers are supposed to be different looking in the first place. Hence, Lion'S et al..


Here is a documentary on Tunis and her spring revolution.
By a Dutch journalist/ former politician. And some point some of the Tunisians plan on harming him and his team, 11th minute. I hope you can see it, and that it's not blocked to region. Let me know about it.

http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1251858


The Aterian and its place in the North African Middle Stone Age (2012)

quote:
Description: Publication year: 2012 Source:Quaternary International Eleanor M.L. Scerri The Aterian is a frequently cited manifestation of the Middle Stone Age (MSA) of North Africa, yet its character and meaning have remained largely opaque, as attention has focused almost exclusively on the typology of ‘tanged’, or ‘pedunculated’, lithics. Observations of technological similarities between the Aterian and other regional technocomplexes suggest that the Aterian should be considered within the wider context of the North African MSA and not as an isolated phenomenon. This paper critically reviews the meaning and history of research of the Aterian. This highlights a number of serious issues with definitions and interpretations of this technocomplex, ranging from a lack of definitional consensus to problems with the common view of the Aterian as a ‘desert adaptation’. Following this review, the paper presents the results of a quantitative study of six North African MSA assemblages (Aterian, Nubian Complex and ‘MSA’). Correspondence and Principal Components Analyses are applied, which suggest that the patterns of similarity and difference demonstrated do not simplistically correlate with traditional divisions between named industries. These similarity patterns are instead structured geographically and it is suggested that they reflect a population differentiation that cannot be explained by isolation and distance alone. Particular results include the apparent uniqueness of Haua Fteah compared to all the other assemblages and the observation that the Aterian in northeast Africa is more similar to the Nubian in that region than to the Aterian in the Maghreb. The study demonstrates the existence of population structure in the North African MSA, which has important implications for t he evolutionary dynamics of modern human dispersals.
http://waesearch.kobv.de/uid.do;jsessionid=E81786F9CAFC76A81FC261E6C578626C?query=rss_feeds_1818205&pageid=1347942796202-9619325052468898

Nubia Complex strategies in the Egyptian high desert

http://www.academia.edu/1590718/Nubian_Complex_strategies_in_the_Egyptian_high_desert


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Great post of picture. This is what I visualize the Berbers look like..Never been there but most likely these are the people researchers test as indigenous North Africans.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL




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Djehuti
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The destruction of lyinass continues ala Troll Patrol.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

I see, Djehuti responded before, but I will respond to it as well.


It was addressed before, suggested was a bottleneck effect, causing genetic drift.

Siwans carry E-M183 which is the parent clade of E-M81, as was explained before. E-M78 is more local to Northeast Africa, while E-M81 is more local to and basically only found in Northwest Africa. Therefore using the definition "North Africans" or "North Africa" is an erroneous one in my opinion. Even thou they in cosmetic appearance look somewhat alike, there are still ethnic differences.

May I remind you that Tuaregs carry older stems and relate to the Beja. Siwans look somewhat like Bejas in appearance, but reside in a different location.

While the Berber sub-clade of E-M81 is relatively young. Likely this mutation of E-M81 deals with migration levels by these early pastoralists into different terrains. Map it and you'll see it correlates with the climatic changes.


See again:

quote:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).


Absolutely correct. We have been telling the lyinass twit how many times already that Northwest Africa and Northeast Africa have different genetic histories as you say 'North Africa' in general fails to convey the nuances of the diverse populations living therein the region. We also told the twit that Berber does NOT mean Maghreb and the since there are Berbers who live outside the Maghreb such as the Siwa who live in northeast Africa (Egypt) and the Tuareg who possess deep clades are nomads who range from the Maghreb to the Sahel. The converse is also true-- Maghreb does not mean Berber as there are many peoples of Levantine and European ancestry who have either assimilated into Berber society or are not Berber at all like 'Arabs' and Euro-colonists.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it. [Wink]

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles

The Magreb is a complex region, there are many ethnic groups. The people as posted by Djehuti are mostly at the South. Of the Magreb, while the people you're showing are mostly at the North at coastal regions. These Northern regions had invasions, which explains the admixture.

And Djehuti is correct, the people you post up could be of Arab or Turkish descent, or even Spanish or Portuguese, since there have been colonies by them as well.


Turkish Nationals Leaving Libya as Turmoil Escalates


 -


quote:
With the crisis continuing to deepen in Libya, Turkey's prime minister has announced mass evacuation measures to remove thousands of Turks from the country. Hundreds of Turks have already fled the country.

Every day brings plane loads of Turks escaping the turmoil in Libya. Arriving at Istanbul's main airport, many of them have grim stories to tell, like this man: "At night it was very violent," he said. "We could hear the gunshots. We could see the clouds of smoke, All the Turks are worried."

A woman had a similar story. "We live in the center of the city and suddenly there is no police or people in regular uniforms," she said. "There were just people who were shooting with machine guns at everything. I believe many people died."

According to the Turkish government there are nearly 25,000 Turks living in Libya, most of whom are working there.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in his weekly address to parliamentary deputies, said that 800 people had been already been evacuated and a further 2,800 want to leave.

The prime minister said seven planes were ready to leave and two ferryboats escorted by a Turkish frigate, were about to arrive in Libya.

Mr. Erdogan also gave a warning. "I would like to remind both officials and government opponents in Libya to be extremely careful to ensure the security of foreigners in their country," he said. "Taking cruel steps against people voicing their democratic demands will only exacerbate the spiral of violence and threaten the country’s unity."

Unconfirmed Turkish news reports claim Libyan security forces have detained several Turkish nationals, accusing them of being involved in the unrest. Other reports say the nationals are accused of working for Israel. Such reports only add to the anxiety faced by those in Turkey awaiting news from their relatives.

One woman whose family is stranded in Libya said, "They are stuck in the middle of the desert. They are in a dire situation and because they are in the desert nobody knows about their situation."

The Turkish prime minister has until now largely avoided speaking about events in Libya. That is in contrast to his call on the then Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak to step down. But observers say with Turkey having such a large number of nationals living in Libya and having close multi billion dollar trade deals with the country, the prime minister has to tread carefully.

http://www.voanews.com/content/turkish-nationals-leaving-libya-as-turmoil-escalates-116684804/160209.html [/QB]
The lyinass uses the typical Euronut tactic of touting light-skinned types of the coast as 'typical' native Maghrebis while dismissing darker types in rural areas of the south as more recent 'slave immigrants'. It the same pathetic tactic Euronuts apply to Egypt.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia

that's why you're an idiot, the masses are in cities and these analysis are based on the population as a whole.

The looks of some rural the people is not the same as Sahelins, they're halfway between them an th average Tunisians, you dope relatively more SSA

The thing is that in rural locations the population mostly stays stable, while cities have lot of immigrants. A city is more dynamic in change.
DUH! LOL [Big Grin] Who else would best represent the indigenes? Urban areas who experienced more immigration or rural areas that are relatively isolated?? Even an elementary school child would know that!
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -



that they are highly unusual looking for average Maghrebians dumb ass.
They might have been very nice people but in a general analysis of the modern Maghreab would occupy a very small percentage.

You are predictable, you look for any opportunity, same photos from another thread, trying to impress people, hey look at these interesting "black" people I found,
Now relate that to the DNATribes NA region analysis, was the goal to document every obscure ethnicity in the region? Oh so that must mena I hate these people, I'm "dismissing these poor people, get out of here, look at the pie chart, you want like 50 pieces now so we can make every body feel good, go to tishkoff and tell her she left out 2000 tribes from her charts
stop patronizing people and trying to get points
and got mosaic people, posted a million times up don't even look more African than Near Eastern/Med, seen it before. Post something new for once

The people posted by Djehuti aren't obscure, they are the main dominant at the Middle and Southern part of the Magreb. Their remains and remnants go back to the Holocene, as has been shown by the actual site scenes. We have followed paternal the genetic trace, showing its mostly African. So, where does DNA-tribes accumulated this?
Right again, TP! In fact this was all discussed in my thread here: Modern Day North Africans who Exhibit 'Archaic' Features Even many Western anthropologists acknowledged that such types are obviously aboriginal and share affinities in the oldest modern human remains in the region! Yet the lyinass prefers using coastal immigrant communities as 'typical' Maghrebi. [Roll Eyes]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ reasonable but if you are looking at a pie chart and a section of the chart relates to a genetic affinity the chart is not intended to indicate where in the country such people are. And there are also recent sub saharan migrants.

quote:
Originally poested by Troll Patrol:
The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

I don't think anybody here is that qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I find that Moncef Marzouki somewhat odd looking.

I put this up earlier:
 -

this is my guess as to what average Tunisians, the majority of people look like, within this range we see.
I think people would have to agree with me the fact that some of have the highest M81 yet the Tunisians berbers are not the most African looking of berbers. It's a very small country in terms of land mass. If you compare it to Libya or Algeria the whole country could be described as "coastal" on a relative basis.
yet their population is 10.6 mil and Libya which looks about ten times larger only has 6.4 mil.
And this follows the pattern of the drying of the sahara

You are right, you're not qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I however am.

May I remind you that at the at the root level is sub-clade Y E-M96, in over more than 80%. If you look at the morphology in these maven, on that picture, you can trace typical African features.


Sidekick, my dad has been to Tunis several times, they took him for a local, while the white people he was with weren't mistaken for locals ( speaking sticking out). My dad looks somewhat like the darker man with the Fes, in the corner of the picture. The guy in the middle with the black T-shirt looks somewhat like a cousin of mine.

It's no surprise that these very people whom lyinass calls 'typical' Maghrebi are by and large 'mulatto' looking in appearance the same way most 'Arab' Egyptians are. Of course they are mixed! The lyinass keeps insisting on the fact that they have primarily African ancestry, but not solely African ancestry. What does she think their indigenous African ancestors looked like without non-African admixture??
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:



 -



One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL

Djehuti - do you know where this photo is from. They remind me of the descriptions of the predomonant coastal Moroccan Berbers of the 8th to 12th century which were in fact the "Masmuda" and were described as "stocky" unlike the other Berbers (Zanata, Sanhaja, Zaghawa, Wangara, Djawara), etc. and of course "black-skinned" by Nasir Khusroes, Abu Shama and Ibn Butlan others. The description of "stocky" has puzzled me for some time.

I have a theory about a link of Masmuda Berbers to the ancient Sao that I haven't confirmed yet.

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the lioness,
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^^^ this is funny, dana has to ask Djeutie where they're from
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anguishofbeing
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^ Dumbass you got owned again. lol
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ this is funny, dana has to ask Djeutie where they're from

Why is it funny to ask where this photo was taken, LYING _SS. Do you know if it is the Draa, Sous, Upper Atlas or elsewhere? If so, I'd be mighty glad to hear from you. Take your best shot.

Personally I just think you are mad AS USUAL at the fact I mentioned AGAIN the Berber people who were DOCUMENTED in COASTAL Morocco up until several hundred years ago (according to modern scholarship), and the FACT that they were described as BLACK-skinned SEVERAL TIMES by eyewitness observers that were Syrians, Kurds and Persians or other "swarthy whites" that you like to pretend were the same complexion as the Berbers. [Smile]

I know - it hurts. But that's too bad.

BTW - Think now carefully before you open and respond from that LYIN _SS of a mouth of yours. And for God's sake get rid of your FEAR OF BLACKNESS. [Big Grin]

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Son of Ra
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Me I just personally look at North Africans as one big diverse group with many looks. But I hate when Eurocentrics try to claim the black looking ones are a result of slavery when that isn't even the case... [Roll Eyes]
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Me I just personally look at North Africans as one big diverse group with many looks. But I hate when Eurocentrics try to claim the black looking ones are a result of slavery when that isn't even the case... [Roll Eyes]

Lyin _SS being the most perfectly delusional example of this in my humble opinion. [Big Grin]
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Me I just personally look at North Africans as one big diverse group with many looks. But I hate when Eurocentrics try to claim the black looking ones are a result of slavery when that isn't even the case... [Roll Eyes]

Lyin _SS being the most perfectly delusional example of this in my humble opinion. [Big Grin]
LOL...

 -


^^^Some people would be quick to claim those Siwa Berbers are 'mixed' or have 'slave ancestry'. But what those people don't know is that Siwa Berbers have been ISOLATED and remained UNCHANGED. I even hear that they don't marry out.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb][/qb]

From the article - Neanderthals Doomed by Vision-Centered Brains

" Neanderthals' keen vision may explain why they couldn't cope with environmental change and died out, despite having the same sized brains as modern humans, new research suggests.

The findings, published today (March 12) in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, suggest that Neanderthals developed massive visual regions in their brains to compensate for Europe's low light levels. That, however, reduced the brain space available for social cognition.
"...Neanderthals didn't ornament themselves or make art".

http://news.yahoo.com/neanderthals-doomed-vision-centered-brains-002516901.html

Is this why you have such a penchant for picture spamming (allowing you better mental focus?) and have a serious problem with color differentiation among North Africans?

Because if it is I am thinking we should all be more lenient with you. [Eek!]

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

 -

Djehuti - do you know where this photo is from. They remind me of the descriptions of the predomonant coastal Moroccan Berbers of the 8th to 12th century which were in fact the "Masmuda" and were described as "stocky" unlike the other Berbers (Zanata, Sanhaja, Zaghawa, Wangara, Djawara), etc. and of course "black-skinned" by Nasir Khusroes, Abu Shama and Ibn Butlan others. The description of "stocky" has puzzled me for some time.

I have a theory about a link of Masmuda Berbers to the ancient Sao that I haven't confirmed yet.

The photo was taken in Algeria and that is the only thing I know about it. The photo was first posted here years ago in debates about Berbers probably by Doug. I don't know which ethnic group or tribe in Algeria the women belong to, however their hairstyles and head wraps bear a striking resemblance to some Ouled Berbers although most Ouled, especially the women are quite fair in complexion and those especially in northern areas could be called 'white' except many still have the same facial features as the women in the photo I posted.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
But what those people don't know is that Siwa Berbers have been ISOLATED and remained UNCHANGED. I even hear that they don't marry out. [/QB]

Genetics don't seem to agree with those stories.

 -

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

 -

Djehuti - do you know where this photo is from. They remind me of the descriptions of the predomonant coastal Moroccan Berbers of the 8th to 12th century which were in fact the "Masmuda" and were described as "stocky" unlike the other Berbers (Zanata, Sanhaja, Zaghawa, Wangara, Djawara), etc. and of course "black-skinned" by Nasir Khusroes, Abu Shama and Ibn Butlan others. The description of "stocky" has puzzled me for some time.

I have a theory about a link of Masmuda Berbers to the ancient Sao that I haven't confirmed yet.

The photo was taken in Algeria and that is the only thing I know about it. The photo was first posted here years ago in debates about Berbers probably by Doug. I don't know which ethnic group or tribe in Algeria the women belong to, however their hairstyles and head wraps bear a striking resemblance to some Ouled Berbers although most Ouled, especially the women are quite fair in complexion and those especially in northern areas could be called 'white' except many still have the same facial features as the women in the photo I posted.
OK - well I'm pretty certain they are not Oueled Na'il, but may be living close to them. They may be some Mozabite group further south.
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Djehuti
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^ Whoever they are as Bettyboo stated, the look more South Pacific than Sub-Saharan. Dana, have you heard of the Usht-etta Berbers of Tunisia? I have read in a few places that Westerners describe them as looking 'Australoid'.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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For those curious, here's the MtDNA haplotype frequency of Siwa and other Berbers:

 -

 -

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Doug M
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Well of course, if you don't know by now, most of the clowns are only trying to maintain and support the outright lies and falsehoods of the Western system of anthropology. That is why they stubbornly cling to it to their last breaths.

This isn't about truth in the least. It is about maintaining the legitimacy and primacy of the institutions of history and anthropology as arms of white supremacy. Otherwise, the fact that "amateurs" on this board and elsewhere can put the credibility of these institutions to question threatens the system they have so carefully built over the last few hundred years.

Anybody can see that it is way beyond truth and facts at this point.

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Djehuti
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^ Actually Western Academia today has begun the process of writing their wrongs in terms of the legacy of racism in both anthropology and history. This is especially true in anthropology which is going through great lengths to debunk the race nonsense it has peddled in the past couple of centuries. The Anglo-idiot claims this is due to 'political correctness' which may in part be true but more so it has to due with valid anthropological studies especially genetics which refutes the whole notion of racial groupings let alone "Caucasian" superiority. As Lioness says, idiots like Farthead are still stuck in the 19th century, which is the only way someone can cling to racist nonsense. [Embarrassed]

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Whoever they are as Bettyboo stated, the look more South Pacific than Sub-Saharan. Dana, have you heard of the Usht-etta Berbers of Tunisia? I have read in a few places that Westerners describe them as looking 'Australoid'.

No - I hadn't heard of the Ushtetta, but I bet they look like wavy haired africans with the more "archaic" features (like large teeth) similar to the Tunisian "enfant bedouine" photo above. That's usually what people think of when they say Australoid.

Have you found any pictures. I was looking for them.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ The idea (now in a new thread of AlTakruri's) is that the Almoravid aka Al Murabitin did not invade Ghana > is an alternative theory. Most scholars do not believe that
The above article I posted if form Molefi Asante's History of Africa.

Your link, like your other link is to only page 1 intoduction of an article on JUSTOR

Asante is not "most scholars." His bibliography
pertaining to Wagadu and al~Murabitun is sparse
and outdated.

Invasion is not conquest. There was no al~Murabitun
conquest of Wagadu and no such thing is written in any
contemporaneous Arabic documents. It's as late as 300 -
400 years after al~Murabitun before such an idea appears
anywhere in the literature.

Whether there was an invasion is even questionable.

In fact Wagadu invited help from al~Murabitun to quash
insubordinate kingdoms seeking autonomy from Wagadu's
empire.

This and more can be gleaned from perusal of sources
listed in the al~Murabitun thread (link).

The respect I recently accorded you is turning out
to be unwarranted and about to be retracted as you
prove yourself a liar by your statement "the Almoravid
aka Al Murabitin did not invade Ghana > is an
alternative theory. Most scholars do not believe that"


Anymore to be said should post to the al~Murabitun thread please.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL More lyinass produced assumptions flushed down the toilet.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

No - I hadn't heard of the Ushtetta, but I bet they look like wavy haired africans with the more "archaic" features (like large teeth) similar to the Tunisian "enfant bedouine" photo above. That's usually what people think of when they say Australoid.

Have you found any pictures. I was looking for them.

I have no luck at all finding any pictures of these people in the net. Every time I do a search, all I come across are racialists making references to them in old anthropological journals.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
 -


Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women
Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks
New York: C. Potter, 1996

 -

there it is dana, original berber

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
there it is dana, original berber

Original Berbers probably looked way more African than this woman.
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Djehuti
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^ By 'more' African I take it you mean darker i.e. BLACK. Then yes I agree as there is no such thing as any original population of Africa having such a fair complexion.

The lyinass in her desperation posted Tukuler's photo without context i.e. Tukuler's original quote.
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

If you can get the book

Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women

Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks

New York: C. Potter, 1996

it's got at least one pic of an
archaic **admixed** looking woman in
the mountain fastnesses. I've never
seen the type anywhere else in print
or the 'net. It's either overlooked
(intentionally ?) or it's very rare.

It's one of the books of my now
lost personal library. I'll try and
find it and scan the relevant pics.

OK here it is (finally)

 -

Even Tukuler admits the woman is still admixed via her fair skin and light colored eyes, though there are women who share her features but are much darker (black).

Take the older black-and-white photo of the Ourilah Kabyle woman here.

 -

Note however that when I first posted this photo the lyinass never claimed her as an example of an original (pristine) Berber! LOL

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ By 'more' African I take it you mean darker i.e. BLACK. Then yes I agree as there is no such thing as any original population of Africa having such a fair complexion.

Personally, I think the original Berbers looked like what is often labelled sub-Saharan Africans (even if many actually live in the Sahara and above). Genetics show that the current Berber population are pretty much admixed especially on the female side.
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Djehuti
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^ Yes, but let's be cautious about the claim of admixture due to certain maternal lineages. Remember that some of these lineages labeled as 'Eurasian' may in fact be African. U6 for example is touted by Euronuts as proof of Eurasian admixture even though it has its greatest frequency and diversity in the Maghreb whereas Europe, particularly the Iberian peninsula only show derivatives. U6 by the way is found in Sub-Sahara among women in Kenya yet nobody is quick to call such women have 'Caucasoid' ancestry they do with Berbers.

Mind you the same is also true with certain paternal lineages. R1 is deemed Eurasian and its derivatives are most commonly identified with European males yet upstream varieties are found in Sub-Sahara especially in West Africa.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes, but let's be cautious about the claim of admixture due to certain maternal lineages. Remember that some of these lineages labeled as 'Eurasian' may in fact be African. U6 for example is touted by Euronuts as proof of Eurasian admixture even though it has its greatest frequency and diversity in the Maghreb whereas Europe, particularly the Iberian peninsula only show derivatives. U6 by the way is found in Sub-Sahara among women in Kenya yet nobody is quick to call such women have 'Caucasoid' ancestry they do with Berbers.

Mind you the same is also true with certain paternal lineages. R1 is deemed Eurasian and its derivatives are most commonly identified with European males yet upstream varieties are found in Sub-Sahara especially in West Africa.

It seems U6 is North African but its parent haplogroup U originate outside Africa. If you say U6 is African originally then you must say all his parents and grandparents mtDNA are African (that is Haplogroup U, Haplogroup R and Haplogroup N). I guess everything is possible but it seems like a stretch. I still stand by my position that current Berbers people have some relatively high level of admixture with foreign DNA. Although it is strange since their Y-DNA (Haplogroup E) is mostly African in origin. It's hard to imagine foreign migrants bringing with them much more women than men. Maybe the migrants men were eliminated somehow at some early point during a conflict or something.
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the lioness,
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"berber" by definition is admixted

observe
Amun Ra's
MtDNA haplotype frequency of Siwa and other Berbers table a few posts back

since when is Capsian or earlier green period Saharns called "berber" ?

at a similar distance from the equator a beautiful San woman:

 -

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
"berber" by definition is admixted

observe
Amun Ra's
MtDNA haplotype frequency of Siwa and other Berbers table a few posts back

He just told us that he thinks most of those Haplogroups are African in origin.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

"berber" by definition is admixed

No. Berber by definition is a language group NOT ancestry.

quote:
observe
Amun Ra's
MtDNA haplotype frequency of Siwa and other Berbers table a few posts back

Okay. And your point?

quote:
since when is Capsian or earlier green period Saharns called "berber" ?
Good question since I recall the only ones who claim the Capsians as 'Berber' were the Euronut trolls. There's no telling what language the Capsians spoke.

quote:
at a similar distance from the equator a beautiful San woman:

 -

Yes but the San woman although relatively light is NOT fair-skinned with light colored eyes, and neither does she have non-African ancestry. [Embarrassed]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

It seems U6 is North African but its parent haplogroup U originate outside Africa. If you say U6 is African originally then you must say all his parents and grandparents mtDNA are African (that is Haplogroup U, Haplogroup R and Haplogroup N). I guess everything is possible but it seems like a stretch. I still stand by my position that current Berbers people have some relatively high level of admixture with foreign DNA. Although it is strange since their Y-DNA (Haplogroup E) is mostly African in origin. It's hard to imagine foreign migrants bringing with them much more women than men. Maybe the migrants men were eliminated somehow at some early point during a conflict or something.

Not necessarily so. Just because a clade originated in Africa does not mean its mother clade originated in Africa as well. Yes we know most U derived clades exist outside of Africa but U6 and probably U5 arose in Africa. Another thing to remember is that the likely origin of these Eurasian clades is Southwest Asia. Southwest Asia is right next to Africa and as was explained many times the paleolithic populations among which these clades arose were not much different from their African brethren right next door. So exactly where is the genetic divide between them and Africans?? This seems to be a big Eurocentric ruse-- that Eurasian means totally distinct from African when such was not the case.

As Keita put it:

The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins.
(2008)

Even before the advent of genetics many Western scholars recognized a continuity between the populations of Southwest Asia (Arabia & the Levant) and North Africa via skeletal remains and such was only strengthened in recent times by genetics. Unfortunately this gave the Euronuts license to segregate North Africa from the rest of Africa and extradite it to Eurasia. We know such is ridiculous fallacy and a futile attempt to white-wash North Africa and even deny Southwest Asia's black roots. As I even pointed out there are 'Eurasian' clades found in Sub-Sahara as well among populations which Euronuts aren't so keen to claim.

This is why folks like Mathilda and her lackey Lyinass fail every time. Lyinass who is desperate to deny or ignore black Berbers but claim fair-skinned types no matter how un-Caucasian their features may be. [Big Grin]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
but the San woman although relatively light is NOT fair-skinned with light colored eyes, and neither does she have non-African ancestry. [Embarrassed]

and what about all these blue eyed black kids we always see posted?
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Djehuti
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^ LMAO [Big Grin] Twit, what exactly is 'Negroism' how does my statement convey that?? We all know you are Negrophobic which is why you are desperate to claim fair-skinned Euro-admixed Berbers as original Berber while ignoring the pristine black ones. [Embarrassed]
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LMAO [Big Grin] Twit, what exactly is 'Negroism' how does my statement convey that?? We all know you are Negrophobic which is why you are desperate to claim fair-skinned Euro-admixed Berbers as original Berber while ignoring the pristine black ones. [Embarrassed]

the lioness just re-edited it. I'm a witness!! LOL
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^ LOL Of course.
quote:
Originally posted by the lynass,:

and what about all these blue eyed black kids we always see posted?

What blue eyed black kids??! LMAO [Big Grin]

B|tch, I don't know when you are going to give up with this charade of yours. We all know your a Euronut agent of Mathilda and not some black girl of African descent let alone an Afrocentric! Get your sorry ass back to your mistress! [Embarrassed]

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___________________  - __________________________
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate
 -

it's a wrap

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

It seems U6 is North African but its parent haplogroup U originate outside Africa. If you say U6 is African originally then you must say all his parents and grandparents mtDNA are African (that is Haplogroup U, Haplogroup R and Haplogroup N). I guess everything is possible but it seems like a stretch. I still stand by my position that current Berbers people have some relatively high level of admixture with foreign DNA. Although it is strange since their Y-DNA (Haplogroup E) is mostly African in origin. It's hard to imagine foreign migrants bringing with them much more women than men. Maybe the migrants men were eliminated somehow at some early point during a conflict or something.

Not necessarily so. Just because a clade originated in Africa does not mean its mother clade originated in Africa as well. Yes we know most U derived clades exist outside of Africa but U6 and probably U5 arose in Africa. Another thing to remember is that the likely origin of these Eurasian clades is Southwest Asia. Southwest Asia is right next to Africa and as was explained many times the paleolithic populations among which these clades arose were not much different from their African brethren right next door. So exactly where is the genetic divide between them and Africans?? This seems to be a big Eurocentric ruse-- that Eurasian means totally distinct from African when such was not the case.

As Keita put it:

The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins.
(2008)

Even before the advent of genetics many Western scholars recognized a continuity between the populations of Southwest Asia (Arabia & the Levant) and North Africa via skeletal remains and such was only strengthened in recent times by genetics. Unfortunately this gave the Euronuts license to segregate North Africa from the rest of Africa and extradite it to Eurasia. We know such is ridiculous fallacy and a futile attempt to white-wash North Africa and even deny Southwest Asia's black roots. As I even pointed out there are 'Eurasian' clades found in Sub-Sahara as well among populations which Euronuts aren't so keen to claim.

This is why folks like Mathilda and her lackey Lyinass fail every time. Lyinass who is desperate to deny or ignore black Berbers but claim fair-skinned types no matter how un-Caucasian their features may be. [Big Grin]

No matter how you spin it. Euronut and racist will always link haplotypes such as U, R and N to Near Eastern or European origin and thus non-African people because they are rare among Africans south of the Sahara.

If the analysis of Ramses III shown Ramses III to be the same types as current foreign admixture of coastal Berbers or coastal North Africans (U, R or N haplogroup), they would directly link it to the current Near Eastern and/or European populations which have a higher prevalence of such haplogroups. Obviously Ramses III is actually E-M2 (e1b1a).

Same thing with the DNA tribes results on the mummy analysis. If it shown close relationship with current population in the Levant or North Africa, it would be a way for them to disconnect Ancient Egypt with the rest of Africa. That is Sub-Sahara Africa. Saying North African carries ancient African STRs ain't going to cut it if those STRs are almost not present in population below the Sahara too but are otherwise more widespread in the Near East or Europe.

Saying U, R or N haplogroup are African haplogroups doesn't change a thing since they are rare in the rest of Africa (and in the southern part of North African countries). I see it only as another way to disconnect Ancient Egypt from the rest of Africa.

All studies (archeological, genetics) shows that Ancient Egyptians are not linked to the North and the Delta but to the South and Sudan.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

It seems U6 is North African but its parent haplogroup U originate outside Africa. If you say U6 is African originally then you must say all his parents and grandparents mtDNA are African (that is Haplogroup U, Haplogroup R and Haplogroup N). I guess everything is possible but it seems like a stretch. I still stand by my position that current Berbers people have some relatively high level of admixture with foreign DNA. Although it is strange since their Y-DNA (Haplogroup E) is mostly African in origin. It's hard to imagine foreign migrants bringing with them much more women than men. Maybe the migrants men were eliminated somehow at some early point during a conflict or something.

Not necessarily so. Just because a clade originated in Africa does not mean its mother clade originated in Africa as well. Yes we know most U derived clades exist outside of Africa but U6 and probably U5 arose in Africa. Another thing to remember is that the likely origin of these Eurasian clades is Southwest Asia. Southwest Asia is right next to Africa and as was explained many times the paleolithic populations among which these clades arose were not much different from their African brethren right next door. So exactly where is the genetic divide between them and Africans?? This seems to be a big Eurocentric ruse-- that Eurasian means totally distinct from African when such was not the case.

As Keita put it:

The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins.
(2008)

Even before the advent of genetics many Western scholars recognized a continuity between the populations of Southwest Asia (Arabia & the Levant) and North Africa via skeletal remains and such was only strengthened in recent times by genetics. Unfortunately this gave the Euronuts license to segregate North Africa from the rest of Africa and extradite it to Eurasia. We know such is ridiculous fallacy and a futile attempt to white-wash North Africa and even deny Southwest Asia's black roots. As I even pointed out there are 'Eurasian' clades found in Sub-Sahara as well among populations which Euronuts aren't so keen to claim.

This is why folks like Mathilda and her lackey Lyinass fail every time. Lyinass who is desperate to deny or ignore black Berbers but claim fair-skinned types no matter how un-Caucasian their features may be. [Big Grin]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't U6 like mutant to an African clade? Again correct me if I am wrong.

Also there are some groups in West AFrica(forgot the groups name) and they carry U6 and they have been ISOLATED.

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Djehuti
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^ Yes you are correct that the mutation for U6 likely happened in North Africa. And I have heard of some women in West Africa who carry U6, I don't know how 'isolated' they were but know that there are also U6 carriers in East Africa as well in Kenya for example.
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

No matter how you spin it. Euronut and racist will always link haplotypes such as U, R and N to Near Eastern or European origin and thus non-African people because they are rare among Africans south of the Sahara.

If the analysis of Ramses III shown Ramses III to be the same types as current foreign admixture of coastal Berbers or coastal North Africans (U, R or N haplogroup), they would directly link it to the current Near Eastern and/or European populations which have a higher prevalence of such haplogroups. Obviously Ramses III is actually E-M2 (e1b1a).

Same thing with the DNA tribes results on the mummy analysis. If it shown close relationship with current population in the Levant or North Africa, it would be a way for them to disconnect Ancient Egypt with the rest of Africa. That is Sub-Sahara Africa. Saying North African carries ancient African STRs ain't going to cut it if those STRs are almost not present in population below the Sahara too but are otherwise more widespread in the Near East or Europe.

Saying U, R or N haplogroup are African haplogroups doesn't change a thing since they are rare in the rest of Africa (and in the southern part of North African countries). I see it only as another way to disconnect Ancient Egypt from the rest of Africa.

All studies (archeological, genetics) shows that Ancient Egyptians are not linked to the North and the Delta but to the South and Sudan.

You are correct. Non of the haplotypes are 'European' in origin but they are Southwest Asian. And you're right that Euronuts often use the label 'Near Eastern' to obfuscate the fact that they arose among populations right next door to Africans and were essentially no different from Africans. While mitochondrial hg U, H, and V, and T are rare and occur at appreciable frequencies in North Africa, hg M, N, and R do occur in Sub-Sahara particularly in east Africa. R0 for example which is prevalent in Sudan even among southern Sudanese and M1 and N1 are common in the Horn. Of course that is why Euronuts are attempting to white-wash these people as well. It is a silly game that more educated people are no longer playing.

Here again are all the mitochondrial lineages.

The ones in red are usually designated as 'African' while the ones in green are designated 'Eurasian' but found in Africa.

 -

Thankfully we have scholars like Dana who are calling more attention to the history of the Middle East and that aboriginal peoples of the region still are black like their ancient and especially prehistoric ancestors.

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes you are correct that the mutation for U6 likely happened in North Africa. And I have heard of some women in West Africa who carry U6, I don't know how 'isolated' they were but know that there are also U6 carriers in East Africa as well in Kenya for example.

IIRC I remember Keita talking about this. I'll try and find the video.
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