posted
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language. .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Sources agree that Garama was name of their capital city. Garamante was the name for the tribe.
Garama was the name of the capital city of the Garamantes. Pliny the Elder wrote"clarissimumque Garama caput Garamantum, the "well known Garam capital, of the Garamantes".
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
..
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.
Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
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A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
the Robert Graves quote
.
The Garamantes (probably from Berber language: igherman; meaning: cities
were a Saharan people who used an elaborate underground irrigation system, and founded a prosperous Berber kingdom in the Fezzan area of modern-day Libya, in the Sahara desert. They were a local power in the Sahara between 500 BC and 700 AD.
There is little textual information about the Garamantes. Even the name Garamantes was a Greek name which the Romans later adopted. Available information comes mainly from Greek and Roman sources, as well as archaeological excavations in the area, though large areas in ruins remain unexcavated.
according to Herodotus, they were "a very great nation" who herded cattle, farmed dates, and hunted the "Ethiopian Troglodytes", or "cave-dwellers" who lived in the desert, from four-horse chariots.
posted
The Garamante or desert Mande created Crete and Greek civilization. The Mande of Crete probably created Etruscan and early Italian civilization.
Posts: 5374 | From: sepedat/sirius | Registered: Jul 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 500 BC - 700 AD. Germa known in ancient times as Garama, Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital
The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population
There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 500 BC - 700 AD. Germa known in ancient times as Garama, Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital
The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population
There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.
.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This theory is interesting
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan
The Garmantes lived in Fezzan approximatly 5th century BCE to the 5th century CE (possibly later) operating the Trans-Saharan trade routes successively between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with all of these people is possible
Their descendants are thought to be berber speaking Tuareg whose territory includes Niger, Libya and other locations in North Africa and the Sahel. No surprise the Tuareg territory overlaps Garama and also extends to Niger Tuareg territoryPosts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 500 BC - 700 AD. Germa known in ancient times as Garama, Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital
The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population
There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.
.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This theory is interesting
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan
The Garmantes lived in Fezzan approximatly 5th century BCE to the 5th century CE (possibly later) operating the Trans-Saharan trade routes successively between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with all of these people is possible
Their descendants are thought to be berber speaking Tuareg whose territory includes Niger, Libya and other locations in North Africa and the Sahel. No surprise the Tuareg territory overlaps Garama and also extends to Niger Tuareg territory
You use the terms "possible" and "thought" this is conjecture.
This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
the Robert Graves quote
.
The Garamantes (probably from Berber language: igherman; meaning: cities
were a Saharan people who used an elaborate underground irrigation system, and founded a prosperous Berber kingdom in the Fezzan area of modern-day Libya, in the Sahara desert. They were a local power in the Sahara between 500 BC and 700 AD.
There is little textual information about the Garamantes. Even the name Garamantes was a Greek name which the Romans later adopted. Available information comes mainly from Greek and Roman sources, as well as archaeological excavations in the area, though large areas in ruins remain unexcavated.
according to Herodotus, they were "a very great nation" who herded cattle, farmed dates, and hunted the "Ethiopian Troglodytes", or "cave-dwellers" who lived in the desert, from four-horse chariots.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."
And ...
"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"
--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)
They've always been an indigenous African population.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Clyde says no berbers are related to Garamantes. Either you believe that or you don't. that is the topic of the thread.
Clyde, Troll Patrol is suggestng the above is a picture of a girl descended from the Garmante. What do you think?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
This paper does not claim the Garamantes were linked to Berbers.
quote:
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."
But...
quote:
And ...
"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"
--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)
They've always been an indigenous African population.
. Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow.
Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact.
The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."
Roman Gladiators
The lack of continuity between populations corresponds to the introduction of modern Europeans into North Africa 3kya e.g., Peoples of the Sea, Vandals, Greco-Romans.
posted
Clyde, Berber languages originated among East African populations 3-5,000 years ago. These were all black African people. The languages were spread to North Africa by migratory nomadic groups who settled in various parts of the Sahara, Western Egypt and Northern Sudan and eventually into coastal North Africa. All the evidence speaks to this. The origin of Berber languages have absolutely nothing to do with Europe and everything to do with Africa and black Africans.
The primary impact of these population movements were in language and culture, because the people themselves were relatively small in number because the areas that they inhabited and migrated through were some of the driest and hottest in the region. Later migrations of Europeans and others mixed with these folks to form the coastal Berber speaking populations that we see today and many of these later arrivals blended their cultures and languages with that of the Africans. That does not make Berber a European language or affiliated with Europeans. It is not.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Clyde, Berber languages originated among East African populations 3-5,000 years ago. These were all black African people. The languages were spread to North Africa by migratory nomadic groups who settled in various parts of the Sahara, Western Egypt and Northern Sudan and eventually into coastal North Africa. All the evidence speaks to this. The origin of Berber languages have absolutely nothing to do with Europe and everything to do with Africa and black Africans.
The primary impact of these population movements were in language and culture, because the people themselves were relatively small in number because the areas that they inhabited and migrated through were some of the driest and hottest in the region. Later migrations of Europeans and others mixed with these folks to form the coastal Berber speaking populations that we see today and many of these later arrivals blended their cultures and languages with that of the Africans. That does not make Berber a European language or affiliated with Europeans. It is not.
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
posted
^ We've told crazy Clyde this how many times now and on how many threads for the past years he's been posting in this forum, yet he refuses to accept the FACTS and clings on to this silly lie that Berber originated in Europe even though there is NO evidence that Berber was ever spoken in Europe as a native language.
Doug, I don't know what those videos on Ethiopia has anything to do with the issue but you are right that Berber languages are related to Ethiopian and Egyptian languages but apparently close to Chadic languages like Hausa in Nigeria as well!
By the way, here are some past threads on Garamantes:
posted
^ Now that you mention it, I remember you posting a bunch of videos on Saharan Berbers whose dances and rituals do bear a resemblance to Ethiopians.
As far as Clyde, he is stuck on one of the few errors that Cheik Anta Diop made which is that Berber is of European origin. Diop was a brilliant scholar, but obviously far from perfect.
In Clyde's crazy world, Berber which is spoken exclusively in Africa is not African yet Dravidian which is spoken exclusively in Asia somehow is! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I've proposed a while ago, based on linguistic and archaeological evidence that the Garamantes were related in some way to the Kel Tamasheq ("Tuareg").
Some of those ideas were laid out herePosts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...
The Garamantes were BERBERS!
It's not silly or psuedo scientific to see the possibility that Tuareg berbers might have been descended form Garamantes
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The Garmantes operated the Trans-Saharan trade routes between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with any of these people is possible
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...
The Garamantes were BERBERS!
Yeah, well Clyde Winters is more than just a pseudo-scholar. He is a psychopath! He claims 'Berber' is not native to Africa but introduced from somewhere else (Europe?!) even though it is part of the same language phylum as Chadic, Egyptic, and other Afrisian languages. Meanwhile he claims the Dravidian languages of India to be African [sic]!! LMAOPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: This is the most silliest Pseudo-historic piece of sh*t that I've ever read...
The Garamantes were BERBERS!
Yeah, well Clyde Winters is more than just a pseudo-scholar. He is a psychopath! He claims 'Berber' is not native to Africa but introduced from somewhere else (Europe?!) even though it is part of the same language phylum as Chadic, Egyptic, and other Afrisian languages. Meanwhile he claims the Dravidian languages of India to be African [sic]!! LMAO
LOl...Psychopath? Don't you think that's a bit harsh?
But yeah the Berber language is definitely African and the proto Berbers are definitely from from North-East Africa. If Berbers are not African then where did their African E-M81 come from which goes as far as 80% in certain Berber groups.
The Dravidian language is obviously South Asian in origin. Anyone who says its Mande in origins should get their brains checked and QUICK! Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Could all ancient Greek known Libyans be "Berbers"?
I don't know about Garamantes being Berbers. Where is the hard linquistic evidence for whatever forms of speech they used? I have it there are grave markers written by Garamantes. Can someone produce.
I also doubt close relationship between Garamantes and the "classic Berbers" of Africa's Mediterranean littoral. Only aDNA from Garamante samples can assure that one way or the other.
Meanwhile what cultural traits link Garamantes to "Berbers" (for those of you who feel Berber is an ethnic group)?
Some archaeologists/historians have interpreted the so-called 'Libyco-Berbers' in contact with the earlier civilization of Dhar Tichitt -- forerunner to Wagadu (old Ghana) -- to have been Garamantes.
Ancient pre-Islam era trade from the Aukar/Tagant, to the Joliba's (Niger's) parabola to Air and on to the north, seems to have been under Garamante control at least in its last legs. Garamante for sure were the last leg in the north bound trade from Tibesti and from pre-Kanem.
I don't think Nasamonians were a subset of Garamantes so the above Garamas seems not to be the same one as in
quote: THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH
At the beginning of all things Mother Earth emerged from Chaos and bore her son Uranus as she slept. . . .
b. Her first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed giants Briareus, Gyges, and Cottus. . . .
c. The Libyans, however, claim that Garamas was born before the Hundred-handed Ones and that, when he rose from the plain, he offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.
Note however that the acorn is associated with both Garamas and Gara per Graves.
Garamante most likely derives from the name of their later capital city Garama, today's Jerma.
quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: I don't know about Garamantes being Berbers. Where is the hard linquistic evidence for whatever forms of speech they used? I have it there are grave markers written by Garamantes. Can someone produce.
As you probably know, Garamantes aren't some distant Ancient entity who went up in smoke millennia ago, that it would be difficult to identify their ethnic origins. Their inhabitation of the Fezzan smoothly transitions into the common era and even up to the Islamic invasion of Northern Africa. This, in and of itself, makes links with indigenous inhabitants of the Fezzan (Tuareg) almost a no-brainer. I'd say 1) trephination going all the way back to Ibero-Maurusian times (where it is first recorded in history) and continuing into modern day Berber populations as well as 2) their ability to thrive in the hyper-arid desert are both strong identifying traits for this population. Especially the latter.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I see nothing peculiar about those traits especially the former besides Maurusians bowed out millennia before taMazight existed. A North African trait is not necessarily exclusive to "Berber."
But please trace Fezzanis backwards from today to Garamante times. Remember Teda Tubu occupy Fezzan as well as the Kels also do.
quote:The trephinations described in the present communication are in accordance with the archaeological evidence for the use of this practice in North Africa. Indeed, as mentioned previously, trephinations have been widely applied in Egypt and possibly in Nubia. However, the practice has never been reported in the central Saharan desert with the exception of the modern Tibu or Teda of Tibesti. To conclude, the trephinations among the Garamantes presented here are the first archaeological cases described from the Sahara. These examples add to the body of evidence that suggests the longterm and widespread use of cranial surgical techniques in North Africa.
Nikita 2011 Evidence of Trephinations among the Garamantes
Yes there are Fezzan continuities but'd like to see them mapped out.
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quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: I see nothing peculiar about those traits especially the former besides Maurusians bowing out millennia before taMazight existed.
..... if you define Berbers as the Berber speaking population they got their language and most of their Y Chromosomes from, then yes. Not if you define them as the Ibero-Maurusian + Capsian substratum that their k-based and mtDNA TMRCAs suggests they are. If you look at the latter they're almost entirely comprised of this putative Ibero-Maurusian + Capsian ancestry. Its also interesting that the extremely high on Franco-Cantabrian refuge mtDNA H1 Libyan Tuaregs inhabit a region that's very close to the Easternmost territory of the Capsians. This too, seems to suggest very long (10kya) local ties of the Tuareg H, V based maternal genepool to the Western Libyan region.
quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: But please trace Fezzanis backwards from today to Garamante times.
I'm not sure that the Tuareg ethno-genesis stretches that far back in time, though I may be wrong. I'm sure there is at least something to glean from looking at the populations who inhabit the Fezzan today, and slowly excluding unlikely matches like Arabs and Tebu who seem to have arrived later. How many non-Berber indigenous groups are there today in the Fezzan? Is there credence to maps like these?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Imazighen are the people speaking Tamazight. That is my definition. Before North Africans began to speak Tamazight lects they were not "Berbers."
Garamantia is within "Berber" timeframes. Their scripted records will reveal if and when they utilized a Tamazight tongue.
Kel Tamasheq ethno-genesis is post Garamantia. I haven't read any origin mythos by them that remembers anything like Garamantia a solid and extensive political state.
I don't see Teda entering Fezzan any later than the Kels. I guess that map is as good as any. Does it jibe with other similar maps? There's some Xian missionary group very concerned with African ethnic groups. Maybe I'm simple to do it but I value their ethnic maps because the time they put in the field and the stakes they place in what they do.
I wish they did a Ghadames&Ghat Tuareg map but they don't and so
.
I also have no idea how much Libyan beduin are indigenous but
Qadhafi was beduin and his facial bone structure was sure not Arabian Arab.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: Imazighen are the people speaking Tamazight. That is my definition. Before North Africans began to speak Tamazight lects they were not "Berbers."
Sure, but the point I'm trying to make is that your and Nikita et al's reservation to the idea that Garamantes and modern Berber speakers derive the practice of trephenation from their Epi-Palaeolithic predecessors in that region hinges on the suspicion that Maghrebi Epi-Palaeolithic ancestry doesn't persist in modern Berber speakers. That idea is not founded on current understandings of what Berber speakers are.
quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: Kel Tamasheq ethno-genesis is post Garamantia. I haven't read any origin mythos by them that remembers anything like Garamantia a solid and extensive political state.
Agree. It may have something to do with their late ethno-genesis. Kind of similar to how Palestinians think of themselves as Arabs and don't seem to have recollections of being inhabitants of events related to the Israelite state, even though their pre-medieval ancestors likely would have self identified as biologically Jewish or something akin to it.
quote: Originally posted by Tukuler: I don't see Teda entering Fezzan any later than the Kels. I guess that map is as good as any. Does it jibe with other similar maps? There's some Xian missionary group very concerned with African ethnic groups. Maybe I'm simple to do it but I value their ethnic maps because the time they put in the field and the stakes they place in what they do.
I guess that goes back to what I said earlier, re: what one considers Tuareg to be. Are they predominantly a continuation of their >10ky old mtDNA H1, M1 and V ancestors or of their ~5kya E-M81 ancestors? If one goes with the former scenario, as I'm inclined to for obvious reasons, then they hands down pre-date Tebu in the wider area.
Who are the Libyan Bedouins you're referring to? Isn't ''Bedouin'' a lifestyle related term, which may be applied to segments of all Libyan ethnic groups, rather than an ethnic term, or is it different in Libya?
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The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10 (1976, pp.23-27:24. ).
Genetics as noted by Mait Metspalu et al writing in 2004, in “Most extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans” http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26
can not tell which group first entered India. Mait Metspalu wrote _________________________________________________________________ Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among the present day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more “autochthonous” than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent (p.9). ________________________________________________________________________
B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.
B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .
Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).
There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1 ) .
There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .
There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race (RaceandHistory,2006).
Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.
Linguistic Evidence
1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.
1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.
1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians
1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.
1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.
1.8 As a result of the linguistic evidence the Congolese linguist Th. Obenga suggested that there was an Indo-African group of related languages. To prove this point we will discuss the numerous examples of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between the Dravidian group: Tamil (Ta.), Malayalam (Mal.), Kannanda/Kanarese (Ka.), Tulu (Tu.), Kui-Gondi, Telugu (Tel.) and Brahui; and Black African languages: Manding (Man.),Egyptian (E.), and Senegalese (Sn.) _________________________________________________________________
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COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS
ENGLISH DRAVIDIAN SENEGALESE MANDING MOTHER AMMA AMA,MEEN MA FATHER APPAN,ABBA AMPA,BAABA BA PREGNANCY BASARU BIIR BARA SKIN URI NGURU,GURI GURU BLOOD NETTARU DERET DYERI KING MANNAN MAANSA,OMAAD MANSA GRAND BIIRA BUUR BA SALIVA TUPPAL TUUDDE TU CULTIVATE BEY ,MBEY BE BOAT KULAM GAAL KULU FEATHER SOOGE SIIGE SI, SIGI MOUNTAIN KUNRU TUUD KURU ROCK KALLU XEER KULU STREAM KOLLI KAL KOLI
6.1 Dravidian and Senegalese. Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) and U.P. Upadhyaya (1976) have firmly established the linguistic unity of the Dravidian and Senegalese languages. They present grammatical, morphological, phonetic and lexical parallels to prove their point.
6.2 In the Dravidian and Senegalese languages there is a tendency for the appearance of open syllables and the avoidance of non-identical consonant clusters. Accent is usually found on the initial syllable of a word in both these groups. Upadhyaya (1976) has recognized that there are many medial geminated consonants in Dravidian and Senegalese. Due to their preference for open syllables final consonants are rare in these languages.
6.3 There are numerous parallel participle and abstract noun suffixes in Dravidian and Senegalese. For example, the past participle in Fulani (F) -o, and oowo the agent formative, corresponds to Dravidian -a, -aya, e.g., F. windudo 'written', windoowo 'writer'.
6.4 The Wolof (W) -aay and Dyolo ay , abstract noun formative corresponds to Dravidian ay, W. baax 'good', baaxaay 'goodness'; Dr. apala 'friend', bapalay 'friendship'; Dr. hiri 'big', hirime 'greatness', and nal 'good', nanmay 'goodness'.
6.5 There is also analogy in the Wolof abstract noun formative suffix -it, -itt, and Dravidian ita, ta, e.g., W. dog 'to cut', dogit 'sharpness'; Dr. hari 'to cut', hanita 'sharp-ness'.
6.6 The Dravidian and Senegalese languages use reduplication of the bases to emphasize or modify the sense of the word, e.g., D. fan 'more', fanfan 'very much'; Dr. beega 'quick', beega 'very quick'.
6.7 Dravidian and Senegalese cognates.
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English Senegalese Dravidian body W. yaram uru head D. fuko,xoox kukk hair W. kawar kavaram 'shoot' eye D. kil kan, khan mouth D. butum baayi, vaay lip W. tun,F. tondu tuti heart W. xol,S. xoor karalu pup W. kuti kutti sheep W. xar 'ram' cow W. nag naku hoe W. konki bronze W. xanjar xancara blacksmith W. kamara skin dol tool mother W. yaay aayi child D. kunil kunnu, kuuci ghee o-new ney
Above we provided linguistic examples from many different African Supersets (Families) including the Mande and Niger-Congo groups to prove the analogy between Dravidian and Black African languages. The evidence is clear that the Dravidian and Black African languages should be classed in a family called Indo-African as suggested by Th. Obenga. This data further supports the archaeological evidence accumulated by Dr. B.B Lal (1963) which proved that the Dravidians originated in the Fertile African Crescent.
The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet. There has been considerable debate concerning the transport of African millets to India. Weber (1998) believes that African millets may have come to India by way of Arabia. Wigboldus (1996) on the other hand argues that African millets may have arrived from Africa via the Indian Ocean in Harappan times.
Both of these theories involve the transport of African millets from a country bordering on the Indian Ocean. Yet, Weber (1998) and Wigboldus (1996) were surprised to discover that African millets and bicolor sorghum , did not reach many East African countries until millennia after they had been exploited as a major subsistence crop at Harappan and Gujarat sites.
This failure to correlate the archaeological evidence of African millets in countries bordering on the Indian Ocean, and the antiquity of African millets in India suggest that African millets such as Pennisetum and Sorghum must have come to India from another part of Africa. To test this hypothesis we will compare Dravidian and African terms for millet.
Winters (1985) has suggested that the Proto-Dravidians formerly lived in the Sahara. This is an interesting theory, because it is in the Sahara that the earliest archaeological pennisetum has been found.
Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)
Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara. The linguistic and anthropological data make it clear that the Dravidian speaking people were part of the C-Group people who formed the backbone of the Niger-Congo speakers. It indicates that the Dravidians took there red-and-black pottery with them from Africa to India, and the cultivation of millet. The evidence makes it clear that the genetic evidence indicating a Holocene migration to India for the Dravidian speaking people is wrong. The Dravidian people given the evidence for the first cultivation of millet and red-and-black pottery is firmly dated and put these cultural elements in the Neolithic. The evidence makes it clear that genetic evidence can not be used to effectively document historic population movements.
There is mtDNA data uniting Africans and Dravidians.
Can Parallel Mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-1 motifs in Indian M haplogroup http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?hg07022
posted
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Fezzanese(called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language. .
The native population of Libya is primarily Arab or a mixture of Arab-Berber ethnicities, with a small minority of Berber-speaking tribal groups concentrated in northwest part of Tripolitania, Tuareg and Toubou tribes can be found in southern Libya, which are nomadic or semi-nomadic. Most of the Libyans claim descent from the Bedouin Arab tribes of the Banu Hilal and the Banu Sulaym, who invaded the Maghreb in the 11th century. There is also some Punic admixture, and a curious traditional element from the Romanized Punics such as the Roman toga can be seen in Tripoli's people and was used by Muammar Gaddafi himself.
In the west of the country, there are some Tuareg nomads, mobile across the Libyan-Algerian border. Tuaregs are also scattered over Algeria, Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso.
In the southeast, there are small populations of the Nilo-Saharan Toubou (Tibbu), although they occupy between a quarter and a third of the country and who also inhabit Niger and Chad.
Among foreign residents, the largest groups are from other African nations, including citizens of other North African nations (primarily Egyptians) as well as sub-Saharan Africans.
Tribal groups
Libyan society is to a large extent structured along tribal lines, with more than 20 major tribal groups. The major tribal groups of Libya are:[
^^^ I suppose one or more of these must be berber then, I'm not familiar with these names _____________________________________________________
Now, looking at the Tuareg (purple) they are to te south in Fezzan
maybe the distinction is being made according to this statement on Tuareg DNA again from the same wiki entry:
E1b1b1b (E-M81), the major haplogroup in Tuaregs, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in North Africa, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in North Africa 5,600 years ago. The parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.[43][44] Colloquially referred to as the Berber marker for its prevalence among Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle people and other Berber groups, E-M81 is also predominant among other North African groups. It reaches frequencies of up to 100 percent in some parts of the Maghreb.
The other major haplogroup is E1b1a mainly found in sub-saharan Africa.
Overall, a cline appears, with Algerian Tuaregs being closer to other Berbers and Arabs, and those from southern Mali being more similar to subsaharan West Africans. [Ottoni et al.] (2011)
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Libya: Deep Into The Roots Of The Libyan Tuareg: A Genetic Survey Of Their Paternal Heritage Claudio Ottoni, et al 2011
Recent genetic studies of the Tuareg have begun to uncover the origin of this semi-nomadic northwest African people and their relationship with African populations. For centuries they were caravan traders plying the trade routes between the Mediterranean coast and south-Saharan Africa. Their origin most likely coincides with the fall of the Garamantes who inhabited the Fezzan (Libya) between the 1st millennium BC and the 5th century AD. In this study we report novel data on the Y-chromosome variation in the Libyan Tuareg from Al Awaynat and Tahala, two villages in Fezzan, whose maternal genetic pool was previously characterized. High-resolution investigation of 37 Y-chromosome STR loci and analysis of 35 bi-allelic markers in 47 individuals revealed a predominant northwest African component (E-M81, haplogroup E1b1b1b) which likely originated in the second half of the Holocene in the same ancestral population that contributed to the maternal pool of the Libyan Tuareg. A significant paternal contribution from south-Saharan Africa (E-U175, haplogroup E1b1a8) was also detected, which may likely be due to recent secondary introduction, possibly through slavery practices or fusion between different tribal groups. The difference in haplogroup composition between the villages of Al Awaynat and Tahala suggests that founder effects and drift played a significant role in shaping the genetic pool of the Libyan Tuareg.
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but I'm not sure that map which separates berbers and Tuareg is based on these nuances in DNA
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This map represents the Tuareg in the Fezzan. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Fezzanese(called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
Robert Graves:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
detail, illustration: Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes
Two frescos of Minoan Fisherman, Akrotiri
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Berber languages did not originate in East Africa. The Berber languages are related to Arabic--not Ge'ez etc.
The Berber languages are of Indo-European origin.
Clyde what is the relationship, if any, between Arabic language and Indo-European language?
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This is a good book--but it is based on Eurocentric conjecure. European researchers have tried to link all the groups as one when they were different populations.
The Temehous were not Berbers.
Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author)
The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
Tehenu
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists.(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs(Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier, 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
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The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64). The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman. In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliograpy
Adler,J.(1991 September 23). "African Dreams", Newsweek, pp.42- 45. This magazine articles discussed the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism.
Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara.
_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their relationship to Africans.
Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton ,NJ:Africa World Press. This book provides the theoretical foundations for africalogical studies.
_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal of Negro Education,60(2):170-180. The author explains the importance of the Afrocentric field of study for enrichment of the social studies curricula.
__________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric Curriculum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31. This article explains the practical reasons supporting the institution of an Afrocentric curriculum within the context of multiculturalism.
Baines,J. (11 August,1991). "Was Civilization made in Africa?" The New York Times Review of Books,pp.12-13. This article attempts to review the work of Bernal and Diop in a negative light.
Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York. Volume 1. Here the author explains his theory that there is need for a new historiography for the Mediterranean which recognizes the multicultural origins of Greece. The author also returns to the ancient model which claimed that the Egyptians were "Blacks".
________. (1991). Black Athena. New York. Volume 2. In this volume Bernal outlines his theory that the founders of Greece were Hyksos (Semitic) people from Egypt.
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization.
_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian.
__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago:
Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share.
___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states.
____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages.
_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans.
Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books Ltd. 2 volumes. In this volume we see a detailed account of the founding Myths of the ancient Greeks as recorded in Greek literature.
Hopper, R.J. (1976). The Early Greeks. New York:Harper & Row Pub. Hopper gives an informative narative on the history of the ancient Greeks.
Hochfield,S. & Riesfstahl,E.(1978). (Eds.) Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Nubia and the Sudan. New York: Brooklyn Museum. 2 vols. This is a fine source of information on the Kushite and Meroitic empires. It also provides many well researched articles and photographs of the Kushites. The evidence in this book shows that the Egyptians and Kushites were one.
Hughes,R. (1992, February 3). "The Frying of America". TIME ,pp.44-49. Hughes discussed the threat of multiculturalism to unity of the American people.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Levine,M.M. (April 1992). "The use and abuse of Black Athena", American Historical Review,pp. 440-460. This articles attacks Bernal and the use of Black Athena to estabish a new paradigm for ancient history.
Lefkowitz,M. (1992,February 10). "Not out of Africa". The New Republic, pp.29-36. This text deals with the hyptohesis that Greek civilization came from Africa. Lefkowitz contends that Africans failed to play an important role in Greecian civilization.
Marriott,M. (1991,August 11). "As a Discipline Advances, Questions Arise on Scholarship". The New York Times. Marriott gives an excellent discussion of the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. It provides a good discussion of the players pro and against this field of intellectual inquiry.
Martel, E. (December 1991/January 1992). "How valid are the Port-land Baseline Essays". Educational Leadership, pp.20-23. Martel gives reasons in this article why he believes that many of the claims of Afrocentrists are wrong.
__________.(1991). "Teachers's Corner:Ancient Africa and the Port-land Curriculum Resource",Anthro Notes: National Museum of Natural History(Smithsonian) Bulletin for Teachers 13, pp.2-6. This text explains why Afrocentrism should be kept out of the schools until it conforms with accepted Eurocentric views about Africana affairs and history. He does argue that the Egyptians were a multiculutural society.
Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360. This is an excellent analysis of the influence of Diop on africalogical studies and the European attacks against his research.
Nicholson,D. (1992, September 23). "Afrocentrism and the Tribalization of America". The Washington Post, B-l.Nicholson makes the claim that Afrocentrism is causing the fragmentation of America.
Okafor,V.O. (1991). " Diop and the African Origin of Civiliza- tion:An Afrocentric Analysis". Journal of Black Studies 22(2):252-268. This book offers excellent guidelines on implimenting the research methods of Diop in africological studies.
Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization ".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344. This short article provides a wealth of historical and lexical evidence for the African origination of Greccian heroes, literature and civilization.
___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.: Black Classic Press. This book provides a short discussion of the important role of Blacks in the rise of civilization around the world.
Petrie,W.M.F. (1921). Corpus of Prehistoric Pottery. London.Petrie provides the first detailed categorization of Egyptian pottery and an informative account on the origination of Egypt.
Pounder, R.L. (1992,April) "Black Athena 2:History without Rules" American Historical Review, 461-464. This articles attacks the credibility of Bernal's ,Black Athena.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Raphael, . 1947. Prehistoric Pottery . New York: Pantheon Book. Raphael provides a thorough explanation of the ceramics of the predynastic Egyptians.
Ravitch,D. (1990,Summer). "Multiculturalism:E Pluribus Plures". The American Scholar, pp.337-354. Ravitch argues that multiculturalism is causing America to become ethnicallly polarized, while we abandon many of the values that unite Americans.
Schlesinger,A.M. (1992). The Disuniting of America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society. New York: Norton. Schlesinger argues that multiculturalism is bringing about the rise of ethnocentrism in the United States.
Snowden,F. (1976). "Ethiopians and the Greco-Roman World". In The African Diaspora. Washington: Howard University Press. In this paper Snowden discusses the role of Ethiopian slaves in Grecce.
___________. (1992, March 4). "Blacks as seen by Ancient Egyptians, Greek and Roman Artists". (Lecture) Chicago: Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. In this lecture Snowden continues his theory that the only Blacks in Egyptian and Classical art were slaves.
Tounkara,B. (1989). "Problematique du comparatisme egyptien ancien/langues africaines (wolof)". Presence Africaine,nos. 149-150: 313-320. This book discusses the linguistic relationship of wolof and Egyptian.
Trigger,B.G. (1987). "Egypt: A Fledging Nation". The Journal of the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. Trigger documents the rise of Egyptian civilization in the Sahara and Nubia.
____________. (1992). "Brown Athena: A Post Processual Goddess". Current Anthropology, 33(1): 121-123. This article focuses on the misuse of the book Black Athena as a tool to claim the Egyptians were Blacks.
Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne. Paris. This is a fine examination of the archaeology of Egypt.
Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The Oriental Institute University of Chicago. This excellent text reviews the important Qustul cemetery, which provides a detailed account of the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.
Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian origin in Nubia.
Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima,(New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215. This paper discusses the Manding origin for many of the so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions and explains how these inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years ago.
__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes the idea that Greece was founded by the Indo-European speakers. Winters argues that credit should be given to the African settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine.
_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8. In this article Winters' discussed the famous Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin.
________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper provides insights into the long history of Blacks in Europe, including the Old Europeans, Danubians and other groups.
_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the unity of the writing systems used by the Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans. He shows that these scripts have a common ideological origin and that they can all be read due to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by these people.
__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto- terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland.
__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis of the common roots toponyms found in Asia of African origin.
__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these langauges that indicate their genetic unity.
__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan civilization. He provides numerous examples of the Dravidian and African influences on the Indo-European languages.
__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years ago. Special attention is placed on the type and expression of African civilization in ancient Asia.
___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites, Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups.
Yurco,F. (1989,September/October). "Were the ancient Egyptians Black?". Biblical Archaeological Review, 15(5):24-29,58.Yurco argues that the Egyptians have always been "light skinned", and that they got darker as you went south into Nubia. Wainwright, G. 1962. The Meshwesh", JEA 48, 89-99.
Osing,J. 1980. "Libyen, Libyer", LA III, 1015-1033.
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Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
Clyde there is no close relationship between Berber and German languages and what the Vandal spoke is not even known.
You are saying that Diop said berbers were a mixture of Africans and Germanics. If this is the case they the African component could have been Garamante
Many researchers falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement(2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
Clyde there is no close relationship between Berber and German languages and what the Vandal spoke is not even known.
You are saying that Diop said berbers were a mixture of Africans and Germanics. If this is the case they the African component could have been Garamante
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
posted
Clyde what about haplogroups M81 which are highest frequency in berbers and U6 and/or M1 which are also high in many berbers? Aren't there a lot of genetic studies that came after Diop passed?
Clyde and xyyman are at opposite extremes on this
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Even though this thread was created by Clyde, I see no point in arguing with the thread author as he is beyond reason. Berber is as much indigenous to Africa as its relatives Chadic and Egyptic. That he refuses to accept this is his problem, and I agree with Son of Ra that he needs to get his head checked indeed by a shrink.
That said, I agree with Tukuler and Swenet that perhaps the best modern representatives of the Garamantes would be the people who live in their territory today.
Ghadames
Tuareg
Toubou
As for the physical appearance of the Garamantes themselves, we do have descriptions from Greco-Roman authors as cited by Snowden:
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