posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by harankash:
if there are Egyptian men out there who think that whistling, commenting, winking, flirting, think in any way that they are being 'seductive' to a female they are SO wrong!

Especially of the Egyptian type.

Yes you may hit lucky on few in the resorts, or our european friends out looking specifically for that type of entertainment but you wont find any 'decent' woman offer you anything but contempt.

I think Egyguy that if you are getting favourable reactions to your seduction techniques then your obviously pleased with your results, but please dont think for one second that any woman who has any dignity will entertain you for a second.

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Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by happybunny:
pis pis pis

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Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by happybunny:
egyguy quote

You can always wear a Niquab you know


You know i had thought of that!

"pis pis pis" you know why do men think that this will make you notice them? The amount of men i have told "i am not a cat you idiot" would run into 100's

Egyguy what would your mum say to you if she knew you spoke or acted in a wrong way to any women? I am not being rude to you, i am curious as to what your mum would say

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Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by ?????:
Just sweep it under the carpet, Egyguy, just like majority of men is doing.
For me it has to do with respect. If a man, and it doesn't matter which nationality he has, shows he has his brains behind his zipper instead as in his head, he won't get any respect from me. His speach is not guided by his intellegence but by his hormones. So, what can you expect from such a Neanderthaler?

I've tried it once, between Arabics, to act exactly the same as the men were doing. I rated the passing men, gave comments, wistled, made jokes about them to the Arabic woman next to me.
At first she was a little scared, but later she joined me. The men were not amused, hehe.
I asked them why they were ashamed of us, while we were doing exactly the same as they were doing, in OUR company while one was in a relationship with one of them... What: respect??? I asked them why this was sooooo unrespectable.... I gave them a mirror to look at theirselves.
Not necessarry to add that this was an expierence that I could only make once...

---

I've mentioned that in a previous post.
You're living in a male dominated society where males get to do as they like (mind you I say males not men, it takes a lot to be a man). The average maturity level - if there is such a measure - is sub zero. After all what do you expect from males living with their parents well into their 30s.

There is really nothing much you can do. All I can say is be alert and do understand that the majority are quite harmless - not men enough to act through.

Neither I nor anyone else can stop you complaining. Sympathize, sure!
Good Luck!

Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:
I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.

There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'

You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?

I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.

Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?

You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?

---

Mrs, I don't think it is being implied that this sort of thing never happens in other countries.
I might ask you how often you have been in Egypt, and how long you have been there and if you have ever wandered around a larger city there alone and how often, veiled or not. I am quick to point out that harrassment happens everywhere, but it really is comparably larger in Egypt both to foreigners and natives. I'm not talking about a simple cat call, I'm talking about full on groping, in public, in plain view. We've all had experiences back home, of course.
It would be one thing if it were only a whistle, but your mere reaction to this thread shows very clearly how little you've experienced Egypt without your husband at your side.

Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by caringforwomen:
Almaz, If I answer someone that hits on me, and they think that I'm easy, that's their problem. I know that I'm not. The egyptian men need to change their mentality and not think that every woman that answers them is easy. It depends on what the guy is doing. If he whistles at me, ybecause he finds me attractive, then that is not sexual harrassment in my book. If he asks for a date because he finds my attractive, then that is not sexual harrassment. Cat calls, saying sexual things to me, grabbing my boobs, showing me their dick, all those things, I define as sexual harrassment. Whistling, asking for a date, honking, saying,"Hi, want to go home with me, baby?", That is not sexual harrassment. Bugging me after I refused a date is not sexual harrassment, either. Only if he got angry that I refused his advances and followed me, would I consider that sexual harrassment.

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Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:
I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.

There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'

You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?

I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.

Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?

You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?

---

Mrs, I don't think it is being implied that this sort of thing never happens in other countries.
I might ask you how often you have been in Egypt, and how long you have been there and if you have ever wandered around a larger city there alone and how often, veiled or not. I am quick to point out that harrassment happens everywhere, but it really is comparably larger in Egypt both to foreigners and natives. I'm not talking about a simple cat call, I'm talking about full on groping, in public, in plain view. We've all had experiences back home, of course.
It would be one thing if it were only a whistle, but your mere reaction to this thread shows very clearly how little you've experienced Egypt without your husband at your side.

---

ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone. I'm not likely to either, after this thread because you ladies have made me so scared! I'm just basing it on all the ladies that come on here, talking about their nights out? You remember when YR, Mystic and Miss Sharm had that post about them going to Egypt to paint the town red and the men wouldn't know what had hit them??? how come they felt able to do that if they get harrassment all the time? (and I'm not doubting what you're saying, I just dont see how they could?)

Also, Caringforwomen just said she didnt consider 'good intentioned' attention, eg. whistle etc, hassle, but maybe some other women on here would do, so do you not agree that these men are getting mixed messages about what is offensive or not?

Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Almaz.:

Meeting men from the street is totally a nono.

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That's what my mother teached me too.

Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:

quote:

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Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:
I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.

There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'

You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?

I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.

Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?

You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?

---

Mrs, I don't think it is being implied that this sort of thing never happens in other countries.
I might ask you how often you have been in Egypt, and how long you have been there and if you have ever wandered around a larger city there alone and how often, veiled or not. I am quick to point out that harrassment happens everywhere, but it really is comparably larger in Egypt both to foreigners and natives. I'm not talking about a simple cat call, I'm talking about full on groping, in public, in plain view. We've all had experiences back home, of course.
It would be one thing if it were only a whistle, but your mere reaction to this thread shows very clearly how little you've experienced Egypt without your husband at your side.

---

ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone. I'm not likely to either, after this thread because you ladies have made me so scared!

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LOL, I really don't do it unless I absolutely have to, and it is hardly bad here where I am, but in the larger cities, phew!! Talk about exhausting!

I don't remember hearing about Painting the Town red and all of that - I can definitely see where some people could get themselves into trouble not understanding the culture and what to expect. I think caution is always best in any situation, even at home.

Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by egyguy:

quote:

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Originally posted by ?????:
Just sweep it under the carpet, Egyguy, just like majority of men is doing.
For me it has to do with respect. If a man, and it doesn't matter which nationality he has, shows he has his brains behind his zipper instead as in his head, he won't get any respect from me. His speach is not guided by his intellegence but by his hormones. So, what can you expect from such a Neanderthaler?

I've tried it once, between Arabics, to act exactly the same as the men were doing. I rated the passing men, gave comments, wistled, made jokes about them to the Arabic woman next to me.
At first she was a little scared, but later she joined me. The men were not amused, hehe.
I asked them why they were ashamed of us, while we were doing exactly the same as they were doing, in OUR company while one was in a relationship with one of them... What: respect??? I asked them why this was sooooo unrespectable.... I gave them a mirror to look at theirselves.
Not necessarry to add that this was an expierence that I could only make once...

---

I've mentioned that in a previous post.
You're living in a male dominated society where males get to do as they like (mind you I say males not men, it takes a lot to be a man). The average maturity level - if there is such a measure - is sub zero. After all what do you expect from males living with their parents well into their 30s.

There is really nothing much you can do. All I can say is be alert and do understand that the majority are quite harmless - not men enough to act through.

Neither I nor anyone else can stop you complaining. Sympathize, sure!
Good Luck!

---

The differences between being a MAN or just being MALE. You are right in that. In my opinion it is all in how they are raised. If the parents to teach them to respect a girl or a woman, if they accept behaviour like this, or even doing the same, what can you expect?
If the father shows no respect to the mother, how would the sons grow up? They will start with showing no respect to their sisters, neices, or the girl next door...
I cannot say that it is because of the separation during childhood, norms and values are brought in by the parents, the teachers at school, the religious people...

Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:
ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone.

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Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by caringforwomen:
Are you saying not to date at all, Tigerlily? How do you meet a man if you don't date some?

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Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by caringforwomen:
Harankash, The citizens of Egypt don't run the lives of every woman. So they need to just mind their business. If you want to accept a date, that is not wrong. Why do they get in everyone's business like that?

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Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Sic Luceat Lux:

quote:

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Originally posted by Exiled:
To state that Islam is incapable of fostering ethical behavior in individuals is erroneous.

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I never said that Islam was incapable of fostering ethnical behaviour. I said it was incapable of making people behave more ethnical.

You may think I'm quibbling, but there is a distinction.

Islam does prescribe many positive habits and behaviours to it's adherents, but whether these same adherents follow it is another matter entirely.

Thats what I was getting at. Religion can only prescribe; it cannot force or make people behave any differently than how they are already inclined however.

Case in point, there has been countless immoral acts committed under the banner of Islam throughout the centuries..

And Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, is considered by many to be amongst the most immoral and corrupt nations on the planet.

Where does it begin and where does it end?

quote:

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Egypt is also not the only nation that is ‘more Islamic’ today, other nations are also ‘more Islamic’ today including the vast majority of Arab states.

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Indeed, but my point in raising this, was that despite Egypt's greater religious status today, the sexual harassment problem has only become worse. It has not improved at all by most accounts.

quote:

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Yet this hideous behavior is practically more or less an Egyptian phenomenon. I once thought that poverty played a major role but I do not longer feel this way because there are other Muslim nations that suffer worse poverty yet their males don’t exhibit such vile behavior as Egyptian males.

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Hmmm I'm not so sure Egypt is the only Arab nation where this behaviour is commonplace. It is the worst in this regard perhaps, but not the only one I think.

I remember when I was in Kuwait many years ago, myself, another guy and three western women went downtown to do some shopping and sight seeing. One of the females was blonde haired and blue eyed, and the other two were brunettes. None of them were what I'd call hot or gorgeous, but they were fairly attractive.

With that said, the local men had more than a passing interest in them. They followed us throughout the bazaar, and even when we were in our vehicle, they would bang on the windows and proclaim their love for these foreign women..

Some guys even asked for their hand in marriage by saying,"I marry you!"

More telling than asking, but you get the point

Then we went jet skiing in Kuwait harbor, and the other guy managed to capsize the jet ski he was on by doing fancy tricks with it.

Then for compensation, the guy who ran the jet ski operation wanted us to SELL one of the females to him

quote:

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Suggesting western ideals such as desegregation of the sexes is a silly notion given the fact that Egypt is 90% Muslim and 50% illiterate.

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If Egypt had less sexual harassment a few decades ago when it was more secular than religious, what does this say?

quote:

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Most muslim nations are in fact segregated yet this harassment phenomena does not exists in those nations. Neither segregation nor economic hardships are excuses in other Muslim nations and they shouldn’t be excuses for the way Egyptian males are behaving.

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It all depends on the level of segregation. Saudi Arabia being the most segregated, while Lebanon perhaps being the least.

Egypt seems to be somewhere in the middle.

Like I said earlier though, it's a complex problem with many underlying factors not easily addressed.

~Alistair

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Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by harankash:

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Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Exiled:
I am not sure what some other sects that deviate from the sunnah believe in this regard considering that such mingling is not stated in the Quran and possibly similarly to the hijab where the Sunnah deems it obligatory yet Quranists contend otherwise.

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Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Exiled:
The teachings and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(saw) also forbids the mingling of sexes.

Al-Azhar needs to act now and to do so they need female voices to ascertain that action is taken.

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If mingling of the sexes is forbidden who are these female voices going to be talking to if not just women? Its the men that need sorting out.

Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Exiled:
The teachings and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(saw) also forbids the mingling of sexes.

Al-Azhar needs to act now and to do so they need female voices to ascertain that action is taken.

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If mingling of the sexes is forbidden who are these female voices going to be talking to if not just women? Its the men that need sorting out.

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Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by VanillaBullshit:
Dunes, please tell me you didn't just expound on the "benefits" of segregation.

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Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia*:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:
ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone.

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Then you should stop telling women who have done so on a daily basis for years that it's just the same as walking a street in the UK or anywhere else ... or that we're somehow provoking or enjoying the harassment.

Why don't you go out and take some long walks over the next days, and then you come back and tell us your experiences?

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Ok Dalia, Keep your hair on, I didnt mean to offend you - I just thought that knowing how popular Egypt and Egyptian men are with the western ladies, and the volume of female tourists, If it is a bad as you all say, how and why would they bother going?? But if you say I'm wrong, I accept that, I believe you

Tigerlilly - I agree, you made some good points and yes it must be awful for those women who have to endure it daily (and I'm not being sarcastic) I really didnt think it could be as bad as you all say, but it obviously is.

Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs:
Ok Dalia, Keep your hair on, I didnt mean to offend you - I just thought that knowing how popular Egypt and Egyptian men are with the western ladies, and the volume of female tourists, If it is a bad as you all say, how and why would they bother going?? But if you say I'm wrong, I accept that, I believe you

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You didn't offend me. I just found it strange that the few people in this thread denying the observations of most of the women here, have never experienced it themselves because they are either not female, haven't been out of Egypt (so they think it's normal), or haven't spent time in Egypt on their own.

As for female tourists getting involved with Egyptians in the resorts -- now I think that's a different issue and does not have a lot of impact on how people in Cairo or Alex behave.

For example ... you always read stories on here about how people get involved with waiters, tour guides etc. which happens because they are not aware of many things about Egyptian society, for example the class system. But if you're a woman living in Cairo it is very unlikely that a waiter in a restaurant, a taxi driver or a papyrus seller would try to make a serious pass on you. It would be considered highly inappropriate in Egyptian society, and he would know that a woman who has lived here for a while is well aware of that.

Hope that makes sense.

Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia*:
But if you're a woman living in Cairo it is very unlikely that a waiter in a restaurant, a taxi driver or a papyrus seller would try to make a serious pass on you. It would be considered highly inappropriate in Egyptian society, and he would know that a woman who has lived here for a while is well aware of that.

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Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
CFW you cannot compare it to anything like your own country, its not the same in any way at all.

Having the odd workman whistle at you in UK is nothing compared to 99% of Egyptian men you pass eiher commenting at you or tying to pick you up. I regularly walk through the souk here, the majority know I live here, but I still get it 'Hey you look Egyptian' or 'Hi Blondey' if my friend is with me, and I get wayyyyyyyyyyyyy less hassle than most do!

Here if you walk down any street and make any sort of eye contact, even for a split second, its taken as a come on, they think they have a chance even if you say you are married! If they say hello and you reply you are stuffed, you cant get rid without being rude, and its not in my nature to be rude if someone speaks to me so its been hard to adapt to that way.

Only once I can remember I had a huge row near the corniche. I was fully covered as always, this guy tried to ask if I wanted a felucca, I ignored him, he followed me saying 'excuse me, excuse me' which you would think is nothing, but if I stop and chat with him the whole of Luxor will know about it in seconds. I turned round and said in Arabic I was married, he carried on trying to talk to me. I then started shouting in English that he wouldnt hassle an Egyptian woman this way so what gave him the idea he could hassle me when I obviously didnt want a damn felucca or to speak with him. I told him this was haram and leave me alone, he backed off and apologized. The best thing to do is to ignore it and walk on but it does get bloody tiring!

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Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Maybe one of you remembers an incident I wrote about here before when I walked in broad daylight one afternoon on Shehab St. (I checked out the stores) and had to tie my shoe. I remember it was still very hot and not many people outside. I didn't sit down and made sure no one was around me. What happened was a young guy touched me from the back between my legs and run off!! This happened to me the first few months living in Cairo.

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I had some young boy grab my breast while passing by on a bicycle, also in a very upscale part of Mohandessen. He was lucky he was on a bike ...

Another time a guy came up from behind and grabbed my butt; he was beaten up by a couple of other guys who had watched the scene. Actually, that was the only time someone interfered when I was being harassed.

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