we've been through or are still going through the 'chaos' when many new ideas are generated - do we have a feel yet for the 'transforming idea'?
Chaos, Stress, and Creativity
Chaos is stressful. The stress is our response to a Foreign Element, an indication that one of our significant assumptions differs from reality. We may experience the stress as pain, fear, confusion, urgency, excitement. Whatever the emotion, the purpose of the stress is to motivate us to make sense of what is going on and figure out how to respond effectively. Up to a point, the greater the stress, the greater our motivation to resolve the chaos.
When we are in Chaos, we are uncertain about what we can do to make things better. We try a variety of responses. We do more of what we have been doing, or less. We try behaviors that worked at some other time and place. We try things we have never done before, hoping that something, anything, will work. We search frantically for information, though we are uncertain about what information will help us. We yell, or cry, or shut down, or run away. We may try each of these things, one after another. Our behavior becomes very unpredictable.
To express this in a different way, we become very creative. Our stress jolts us into extraordinary creativity. We generate a great variety of possible things to do, and we try them.
Unfortunately, most of our ideas and behaviors do not help, and some of them make things worse. We continue because each new idea, each new behavior is potentially a Transforming Idea. Eventually, some behavior, some idea will work. But we don’t know which one until we try, so we try many different things.
The purpose of Chaos is to generate a Transforming Idea.
Presently – Transforming Idea. Inevitably: New Status Quo. Now what the hell is the rest of the text supposed to be about!
Here is a reality check! The Arab youth are storming the Middle East. They will take it. But relax, Egypt is under control, it's safe, schools are re-opening, foreign students are returning, it's all good. And they say Arabs are savages.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: The Arab youth are storming the Middle East. They will take it. But relax, Egypt is under control, it's safe, schools are re-opening, foreign students are returning, it's all good. And they say Arabs are savages.
See I don't think they will. I don't think everywhere is quite like Egypt. Some of those countries don't allow the press in, let alone give two hoots about what the rest of the world thinks. There is no US aid to tie their hands behind their backs with. I'm sorry to say I don't think there will be a unanimous happy ending.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
@Exiled - the rest of the text is about how the chaotic phase is when lots of creative new ideas come about. We can see this in the dozens and dozens of groups that are making facebook pages and probably other places too - figuring out what they want, their focus and stuff. Most will fail, but eventually some will stick. A bit like punk rock basically - hundreds of crappy bands that fell by the way side and a few good ones like Clash and Stranglers or whatever came through it. I hope there is a good future for all the countries, but fear it may take a lot more bloodshed and violence in some of them. I don't think they built up the grassroots support first. Someone posted a really good link on here a few days ago about how to do that WITHOUT relying on the net generation - so the Egyptians had built up a 'critical mass' before they began their protests which I'm not sure has happened elsewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: The Arab youth are storming the Middle East. They will take it. But relax, Egypt is under control, it's safe, schools are re-opening, foreign students are returning, it's all good. And they say Arabs are savages.
See I don't think they will. I don't think everywhere is quite like Egypt. Some of those countries don't allow the press in, let alone give two hoots about what the rest of the world thinks. There is no US aid to tie their hands behind their backs with. I'm sorry to say I don't think there will be a unanimous happy ending.
A week ago who would have thought that Bahrain would shake. Everyone was guessing Algeria, Yemen and Syria.
Now it's Bahrain of all nations at the forefront, along with Libya and ever present Yemen.
I do agree with you that these nations especially Yemen and Libya greatly differ from Egypt. I know they are much more brutal. Yes press is limited and they are cut off from the outside world, these revolutions won't be won from the outside, not via US/UK/EU ….. no. They will be won by local blood.
The US/UK/EU will release their pathetic releases, and it's all BS. The revolution in Libya won't end when the US says Stop. It will end when the Libyans including military can't stomach more Libyan deaths. When they say it is enough. When they say KHALAAAAS. When they say it's time for Qaddafi to step down.
Libya will fall, like so many more after it. Let's chill though, 2 nations fell in a month's time. Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Mmmm... I just remember when I was a kid seeing Tiananmen Square happen... And there have been moments in the Egyptian revolution where it's felt like it could have gone two ways. I mean, I do remember the Berlin wall falling and of course that was great, but it doesn't always pan out that way.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Mmmm... I just remember when I was a kid seeing Tiananmen Square happen... And there have been moments in the Egyptian revolution where it's felt like it could have gone two ways. I mean, I do remember the Berlin wall falling and of course that was great, but it doesn't always pan out that way.
At the end of the day you and I are just meagre souls if you think about it. You bet against the masses, I bet they succeed. And time will tell.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Oh I don't bet against them. That would be tantemount to saying I want them to fail and no, I'd get no pleasure from that.
I just feel that other countries have different setups, priorities and different agendas, but really, I hope you are right.
I have to say though, I wonder about it all. Tunisia had a fresh bout of rioting recently when the people voiced their anger that half of the previous ministers were still in their jobs. I STILL find it sus that Mubarak is being protected. Why is he being let off the hook? I don't quite buy that everything's changed. Not yet. But time will tell.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
So Guys, How much Ms swimwear journalist will take as compensation from CBS news?
according to what is apparent in news
1- she was detained with no IV infusion 2- she was kicked out of the country and then booked a ticket back and she was raped.
Posts: 277 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I have just read that Ms clinton is making a discussion with Egyptian Youth in Facebook.
So Any one have any idea what is going on? Why does she care? I have also found out that america is paying Egypt about 200 millions USD in days.
Posts: 277 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Oh I don't bet against them. That would be tantemount to saying I want them to fail and no, I'd get no pleasure from that.
I just feel that other countries have different setups, priorities and different agendas, but really, I hope you are right.
I have to say though, I wonder about it all. Tunisia had a fresh bout of rioting recently when the people voiced their anger that half of the previous ministers were still in their jobs. I STILL find it sus that Mubarak is being protected. Why is he being let off the hook? I don't quite buy that everything's changed. Not yet. But time will tell.
In time all your suspicions concerning Tunisia and Egypt will be answered. Just have to wait I guess. Personally as I pointed out in the previous thread I am optimistic that a Arab Revolution is a brewing.
Very hopeful that Egypt and Tunisia will both be free. Would you bet your house that each of these countries won't be free? Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Ah you are a tinker, Exiiled. Stop trying to put words in my mouth
Again, love it if it happened. But it all seemed suspiciously easy with Egypt. Ok, easy is the wrong word. I mean the u-turn was so sudden. One minute Mr M would step down over his dead body, next... well alrighty then, oh, ok... I don't see all tyranical dictators suddenly deciding to roll over in quite the same way. I think there was a lot more to it than we know now, or will ever. Save for another Wikileaks disclosure.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: where did you hear that Tareq ?
I have just read it in an egyptian site and about the money US is giving I read it in aljazeera arabic 2 days ago
Posts: 277 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ah you are a tinker, Exiiled. Stop trying to put words in my mouth
Again, love it if it happened. But it all seemed suspiciously easy with Egypt. One minute Mr M would step down over his dead body, next... well alrighty then, oh, ok... I don't see all tyranical dictators suddenly deciding to roll over in quite the same way.
I'm not tinkering anything, but if I was I would be tinkering your ass of the fence. Think positive, think glass half full. You have to admit life is much more unpredictable, the status quo is just not there anymore. You don't have the foresight to see that?!
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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2 re-formation of the committee charged with amending the constitution to include all political and social spectrum of women and men. ...
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this one. This is not a popularity contest, it's a highly technical issue. Ammending the constitution requires some of the great legal minds in Egypt, a panel of experts.
.............
And I have to disagree with you, Amoun! Please see below petition signed by 63 different organizations:
The Constitutional committee starts working while neglecting and excluding female legal experts
The institutions and organizations below have signed this statement in disapproval of the criteria and formation of the Constitutional Committee, whereby the committee does not include a single female expert. Advancing with a committee like this, triggers fears and suspicions with regards to the future of Egypt and the transitional phase which Egypt is currently witnessing after the 25th of January Revolution. This issue poses a critical question with regards to democracy and the main aims of the revolution which were initially spelled out as equality, freedom, democracy and participation of all citizens. We are hereby questioning the criteria according to which the members of the constitutional committee are chosen; are they based on political criteria or on values of equality and justice as spelled out by the revolution? If the criteria are based on efficiency and integrity, then why are female legal experts excluded despite the fact that Egypt is rich with lots of female experts in constitutions whether in the Supreme Constitutional Court or the Faculties of Law. We believe that as Egyptian women largely and equally participated in the revolution with Egyptian men and some of them have been jailed and still lost while others have even martyred, they have the right to participate in building the New Egyptian State on the simple basis of citizenship. Nevertheless, we strongly have confidence in the discretion of the Military Council in guiding Egypt towards democracy. Hence, we are making the statement today to stress on the values of citizenship and participation of women, specifically in the Constitutional Committee at the moment.
....................
We'll have to agree to disagree then citizen, nothing wrong with that. It seems to me that some people are adamant on turning this into male/female issue. For me it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It's about merit, and I don't believe it's about political views. The members of the committe are highly respected in the legal profession and in society in general. Some of them have suggested constitutional reform many years ago and have written books about it. Two points I'd like to raise here: 1- Aren't there women legal experts? are women less capable? In my view, the answer is no to both. No women are not less capable, and unfortunately (in my view) there aren't enough female legal experts to choose from, or they are not well-known enough to be trusted by the population at large (of course this doesn't mean they aren't trustworthy, it only means that at this interim stage trust (or perceived trust) is very important. Now the reason I'm saying there aren't enough female legal experts to choose from is for the simple fact (read objective) that there aren't that many women judges in Egypt.
2-My second point is about those endorsing the statement. I have to admit that I haven't gone through the whole list of 63 undersigned, but looking at the top 20, none of them is a political party, a public body (e.g. faculty of law or lawyers syndicate) or even representatives of the youth movement. So, who do they represent? I'm not necessarily saying they're not genuine in their concerns. What I'm saying is that they're acting as a divisive force at a time when we need unity. They're fighting an imaginary battle, Don Quexote windmills. If I were to be cynical, I'd say they're pleasing their funders (talk about conspiracy theory, lol, we Egyptians can't seem to get rid of it!).
Like Shanta said, this is my last post on the topic. I've said all what I want to say. (I agree with Shanta, and I agree with Nick as well)
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I'm not tinkering anything, but if I was I would be tinkering your ass of the fence. Think positive, think glass half full. You have to admit life is much more unpredictable, the status quo is just not there anymore. You don't have the foresight to see that?!
It's an English expression - not to say you're tinkering as such - more mischeivous with my words.
Nah, I don't think I'm on the fence really. I think in an ideal world, every country deserves democracy. But we don't live in an ideal world. Look at China. What, a conservative estimate would be 3,000 protesting students killed, and 22 years later nothing's changed.
But yes, life is unpredictable, and comparing Libya to China is comparing chalk to cheese. There is no precedent to what's going on in the ME right now. But what worked for Tunisia and Egypt may not be the same for Libya, Jordan, Bahrain and the Yemen. And if we get on to Saudi and UAE, Iran, Iraq... This is like the whole of Europe destabilised and in political turmoil... Just after a global recession/depression. We're moving from positive and exciting to out and out scary.
But yes, democracy is their right so more power to them.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: [ Libya will fall, like so many more after it. Let's chill though, 2 nations fell in a month's time.
I agree, Libya will fall. It's almost inevitable. Dictators don't seem to learn from history, even very recent history, like a few weeks ago!! Bahrain doesn't surprise me because there's systemic injustice there. My understanding is that the majority of the population are Shia muslims while the ruling elite are Sunnis. I'm told by Bahrainis that the Shia'ites don't get their rights. Unless the king makes true reform, there's likely to be major unrest. The problem with Bahrain is that it's a testbed for the rest of the gulf states because all of them have Shia minorities who are (allegedly) discriminated against. I think Jordan and Morroco will survive if they implement true reforms. My understanding is that in both countries, people are not against the king a such but the ruling system. Syria seems to be under control. Can't predict much about Algeria, it might go either way.
Amoun, the political anal-ist, lol
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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, and comparing Libya to China is comparing chalk to cheese.
when Qaddafi visited China in the 1980's the Chinese premier asked him about the population of Libya to which Qaddafi answered proudly in his crazy way of turning and tilting his head "two million". The Chinese premier replied by asking "why didn't you bring them with you?"
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: where did you hear that Tareq ?
I have just read it in an egyptian site and about the money US is giving I read it in aljazeera arabic 2 days ago
then post the hyperlinks to the webpages stating exactly that.
Otherwise if your claims cannot be verified you are rumormongering.
"this" has been in the west for 2 decades and I must say I agree with him about 85% of the time. I agree with him whole heartedly this time as well.
you on the otherhand is the perfect example of why a psychological test needs to be included in visas to the west, and as a requirement for marriage at the MOJ.
Lara Logan was never a swimsuit model, she's a journals with excellent credentials.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
I was wondering - what attitudes do you think people need in a democracy and what do you think will be hardest for Egyptians?
EG in the UK thankfully we did away with automatic deference to someone just because they have a particular unearned social status. People at the top have to EARN respect not just get given it because they are rich or got there via cronyism or nepotism (British equivalent of wasta).
Having seen some of the sentimentality re the Ancien Regime going around - the rough and tumble of democratic politics where politicians are routinely insulted, criticized and the butt of jokes, might that be a little hard for some Egyptians to stomach? How can you transition to that if you would want to?
Moving from a nepotocracy to a meritocracy(notionally though we all know that 'old school tie' 'old boys' network' 'cronyism' etc are rife at the top of many companies and organisations) - when the person you are reporting to came from a 'lower' social status than yourself in the general working environment.
(Not saying everything about the UK system is great - the one place where we do still exhibit unearned deference is regarding media celebrities.)
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: [ Libya will fall, like so many more after it. Let's chill though, 2 nations fell in a month's time.
I agree, Libya will fall. It's almost inevitable. Dictators don't seem to learn from history, even very recent history, like a few weeks ago!! Bahrain doesn't surprise me because there's systemic injustice there. My understanding is that the majority of the population are Shia muslims while the ruling elite are Sunnis. I'm told by Bahrainis that the Shia'ites don't get their rights. Unless the king makes true reform, there's likely to be major unrest. The problem with Bahrain is that it's a testbed for the rest of the gulf states because all of them have Shia minorities who are (allegedly) discriminated against. I think Jordan and Morroco will survive if they implement true reforms. My understanding is that in both countries, people are not against the king a such but the ruling system. Syria seems to be under control. Can't predict much about Algeria, it might go either way.
Amoun, the political anal-ist, lol
Did anyone watch Gaddafi's son rant and rave through a speach on TV last night? He gave out threats, blackmail, offered to change flag, blamed everyone from the outside world, threatened civil war. Then said people would need a passport to travel from East to West Lybya.....he just waffeled for 40 mins waving his hands around.......a dictator in training... Control freak
No wonder Libyan's want to be free. Good luck the people
Posts: 643 | From: Over there | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: [ Libya will fall, like so many more after it. Let's chill though, 2 nations fell in a month's time.
I agree, Libya will fall. It's almost inevitable. Dictators don't seem to learn from history, even very recent history, like a few weeks ago!! Bahrain doesn't surprise me because there's systemic injustice there. My understanding is that the majority of the population are Shia muslims while the ruling elite are Sunnis. I'm told by Bahrainis that the Shia'ites don't get their rights. Unless the king makes true reform, there's likely to be major unrest. The problem with Bahrain is that it's a testbed for the rest of the gulf states because all of them have Shia minorities who are (allegedly) discriminated against. I think Jordan and Morroco will survive if they implement true reforms. My understanding is that in both countries, people are not against the king a such but the ruling system. Syria seems to be under control. Can't predict much about Algeria, it might go either way.
Amoun, the political anal-ist, lol
Yes that's exactly the situation in Bahrain. Despite being the majority that are not adequately represented. The current system heavily favors sunnis across the board, including higher level jobs.
I too think Jordan can be salvaged. It is technically a constitutional monarchy but a closer look reveals that the King rules by decree. There is a parliament that are voted in by the people, but the King appoints all Ministers. Usually he'll appoint a Prime Minister and then asks the PM to form a government. Furthermore the king appoints each and every Senator in the the senate.
The demands are simple:
1.)The people want to vote for the Prime Minister
2.)Balanced electorate. As of now it is unbalanced, a province that may have only 100,000 people may have larger representation in parliament than a province of 1,000,000. This was formulated to prevent Palestinians from assuming to much control in parliament. The political structure of Jordan has choke holds throughout the entire system.
Morocco I believe will fall. This will be accelerated after Libya falls. We're on the verge of witness a third regime fall in North Africa. It is only a matter of time before Algeria and Morocco falls as well. The King in Morrocco is afraid of his own police and military, too the point that lower level police are only allowed 5 bullets and they must be accounted for whenever asked. There are reports that the military is infiltrated by opposition elements and are awaiting the opportunity.
Syria As you mentioned is under tight control, with over 20 security departments and over 300,000 informants. There is a weakness though, and that is the higher hierarchy of ruling Baathist are Alaywiya, while the majority of the people are not. The people know this and the government knows this too. Their strong base is Latatika in the north west of the country, it is also the most beautiful city in Syria as it is favored by the regime. We could very well see the lower ranks of the military siding with the people. These soldiers will only have the courage when they see people mass protesting. And that the dilemma, the Syrian regime is designed to eliminate such dissident before it grows and gains momentum.
I guess all we can do is wait, but the rate at which events are unfolding is overwhelming.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
مفاجأة: أبو الغيط الوزير الوحيد الذي لايزال يحتفظ بصورة لمبارك في مكتب
في موقف يتسق تماما مع سلوك أحمد أبو الغيط السياسي وموقفه المناهض لثورة 25 يناير، قالت مصادر أن اللقاء الذي جمع بين وكيل وزارة الخارجية الأمريكية للشؤون السياسية، ويليام بيرنز وأحمد أبو الغيط وزير الخارجية يوم الاثنين، كشف عن مفاجأة تتمثل في احتفاظ أبو الغيط بصورة مقاس "30*40" للرئيس السابق حسني مبارك ويضعها في مكان بارز في مكتبه وكأن الرئيس المخلوع لايزال رئيسا يمارس صلاحياته ويتلقي أبو الغيط التعليمات منه.
ورغم أن مجلس الوزراء أزاح صورة الرئيس السابق مبارك من مقر المجلس ووضع بدلا منها صورة بها لفظ الجلالة، وهو نفس الأمر الذي حدث في العديد من المؤسسات التابعة للقوات المسلحة، يبدو اصرار أحمد أبو الغيط على الاحتفاظ بصورة مبارك وهو رئيس مخلوع أمر يثير التساؤلات وبحاجة لمعرفة هل أبو الغيط لا يعترف بثورة 25 يناير؟ ولا يعترف بنتائجها التي كان أولها هو إزاحة مبارك عن السلطة؟ ومن أين إذن يتلق أبو الغيط التعليمات الآن من المجلس العسكري الأعلي أم من رئيس سابق لاتزال صورته معلقة في مكتبه؟
Hmm, who is he going to talk to? There's nobody who represents the people. Whoever he'll speak to is in a temporary position. I don't think this is the right time for foreign leaders to visit Egypt, let the dust settle first then come. If it's absolutely imperative that they talk with someone in Egypt, then send someone less senior than the prime minister, maybe the foreign secretary or some junior foreign office minister.
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
"Although Tora Prison is known to be the detention facility for celebrities, it appears uncomfortable for former ministers Habib al-Addly, Ahmed al-Maghraby, Zoheir Garrana and former ruling party official and business tycoon Ahmed Ezz. The big four are jailed pending investigation in charges of corruption.
They asked for TV sets and satellite receivers in their cells, but the administration refused their requests.
Ezz asked that his cell floor be covered with ceramics, which was also rejected.
Sources said that whereas the three ministers maintained high morale, Ezz seemed depressed."
quote:Originally posted by Laura: "Although Tora Prison is known to be the detention facility for celebrities, it appears uncomfortable for former ministers Habib al-Addly, Ahmed al-Maghraby, Zoheir Garrana and former ruling party official and business tycoon Ahmed Ezz. The big four are jailed pending investigation in charges of corruption.
They asked for TV sets and satellite receivers in their cells, but the administration refused their requests.
Ezz asked that his cell floor be covered with ceramics, which was also rejected.
Sources said that whereas the three ministers maintained high morale, Ezz seemed depressed."
posted
Personally, I don't think they will go after Mubarak. Just a gut feeling. Dragging the obviously physically ill (as well as mentally ill) fool into jail might evoke some sympathy in some I think.
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
This advice has been updated with new amendments to the Travel Summary and the Safety and Security - Political Situation section. We no longer advise against all but essential travel to Cairo (all four governorates, including Giza), Alexandria, and Suez. There are no restrictions in this travel advice on travel to Egypt.
posted
مفاجأة: مجند بالقوات المسلحة هو مؤسس جروب خالد سعيد الذي دعا لثورة 25 يناير
كشف د.شادي الغزالي حرب عضو ائتلاف ثورة 25 يناير عن مفاجأة مدوية بأن مؤسس جروب خالد سعيد الذي كان أول من دعا للخروج في مظاهرات يوم 25 يناير، هو الآن مجند في القوات المسلحة ويدعى "عبد الرحمن منصور".
وأضاف حرب في تصريحات لبرنامج العاشرة مساء بأن "عبد الرحمن منصور" كان صاحب الفكر السياسي وراء جروب كلنا خالد سعيد ودعوة الخروج في مظاهرات حاشدة تطالب باسقاط نظام الرئيس السابق حسني مبارك، وأن الناشط وائل غنيم كان مسئول الجانب التقني في الجروب.
وقال حرب- في حضور ثلاثة من أعضاء المجلس الأعلى للقوات المسلحة- أن ائتلاف الثورة اخفى اسم عبد الرحمن منصور طوال هذه الفترة بسبب حساسية موقفه كونه أصبح مجندا في القوات المسلحة منذ يوم 17 يناير الماضي أي قبل الثورة بثمانية أيام فقط، وطالب حرب أعضاء المجلس الأعلى للقوات المسلحة عدم اتخاذ أي إجراء تجاه منصور وهو أمر كان الرد عليه من قبل أعضاء المجلس بأن الفيصل في ذلك هل ما قام به لمصلحة الوطن أم لا، مؤكدين أن مافعله هو لمصلحة الوطن بكل تأكيد، كما أكد أعضاء المجلس.
posted
According to Education Ministry records, 388 schools were named after former President Hosni Mubarak, 160 were named after his wife Suzan, and one school was named after his son Gamal during Mubarak’s 30-year rule.
“These schools should now be named after those who died in the 25 January revolution,” said education expert Kamal Mogheith. “We must protect our children from hypocrisy.”
Bravo!
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by this: مفاجأة: مجند بالقوات المسلحة هو مؤسس جروب خالد سعيد الذي دعا لثورة 25 يناير
كشف د.شادي الغزالي حرب عضو ائتلاف ثورة 25 يناير عن مفاجأة مدوية بأن مؤسس جروب خالد سعيد الذي كان أول من دعا للخروج في مظاهرات يوم 25 يناير، هو الآن مجند في القوات المسلحة ويدعى "عبد الرحمن منصور".
وأضاف حرب في تصريحات لبرنامج العاشرة مساء بأن "عبد الرحمن منصور" كان صاحب الفكر السياسي وراء جروب كلنا خالد سعيد ودعوة الخروج في مظاهرات حاشدة تطالب باسقاط نظام الرئيس السابق حسني مبارك، وأن الناشط وائل غنيم كان مسئول الجانب التقني في الجروب.
وقال حرب- في حضور ثلاثة من أعضاء المجلس الأعلى للقوات المسلحة- أن ائتلاف الثورة اخفى اسم عبد الرحمن منصور طوال هذه الفترة بسبب حساسية موقفه كونه أصبح مجندا في القوات المسلحة منذ يوم 17 يناير الماضي أي قبل الثورة بثمانية أيام فقط، وطالب حرب أعضاء المجلس الأعلى للقوات المسلحة عدم اتخاذ أي إجراء تجاه منصور وهو أمر كان الرد عليه من قبل أعضاء المجلس بأن الفيصل في ذلك هل ما قام به لمصلحة الوطن أم لا، مؤكدين أن مافعله هو لمصلحة الوطن بكل تأكيد، كما أكد أعضاء المجلس.
It doesn't surprise me really. I'm sure a lot of people will claim they started the revolution or were leaders, motivators, making tea for the leaders, buying bathroom tissue for the leaders to wipe their bums, etc, etc. We've already seen a few people in the media interviewed as leaders. I've posted about that earlier. The fact remains that none of them has been democratically elected (to the best of my knowledge). If you're an instigator of an event, does that make you it's leader? I don't know.
Hey, here's the real surprise, you know what? Hosni Mubarak is the one who started the revolution because he wanted to have something to his name. The first air strike wasn't good enough an achievement, he wanted to have his own revolution like Nasser. Spread the word!
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: where did you hear that Tareq ?
I have just read it in an egyptian site and about the money US is giving I read it in aljazeera arabic 2 days ago
then post the hyperlinks to the webpages stating exactly that.
Otherwise if your claims cannot be verified you are rumormongering.
"this" has been in the west for 2 decades and I must say I agree with him about 85% of the time. I agree with him whole heartedly this time as well.
you on the otherhand is the perfect example of why a psychological test needs to be included in visas to the west, and as a requirement for marriage at the MOJ.
Lara Logan was never a swimsuit model, she's a journals with excellent credentials.
ES needs a like button.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: [ Libya will fall, like so many more after it. Let's chill though, 2 nations fell in a month's time.
I agree, Libya will fall. It's almost inevitable. Dictators don't seem to learn from history, even very recent history, like a few weeks ago!! Bahrain doesn't surprise me because there's systemic injustice there. My understanding is that the majority of the population are Shia muslims while the ruling elite are Sunnis. I'm told by Bahrainis that the Shia'ites don't get their rights. Unless the king makes true reform, there's likely to be major unrest. The problem with Bahrain is that it's a testbed for the rest of the gulf states because all of them have Shia minorities who are (allegedly) discriminated against. I think Jordan and Morroco will survive if they implement true reforms. My understanding is that in both countries, people are not against the king a such but the ruling system. Syria seems to be under control. Can't predict much about Algeria, it might go either way.
Amoun, the political anal-ist, lol
Did anyone watch Gaddafi's son rant and rave through a speach on TV last night? He gave out threats, blackmail, offered to change flag, blamed everyone from the outside world, threatened civil war. Then said people would need a passport to travel from East to West Lybya.....he just waffeled for 40 mins waving his hands around.......a dictator in training... Control freak
No wonder Libyan's want to be free. Good luck the people
What will be most difficult for Egyptians is the idea of EQUALITY - that each voice, and vote, has the same value - that the dark skinned Nubian, the baweb's daughter, and the Christian shop keeper all have the same right to express their opinion at the polling booth as the wealthy businessman living in a villa in 6 October.
THIS, I believe, will be Egypt's challenge.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I agree with you Stayingput. You know, I think Wael Ghonim's great with all he's done, but a couple of times he's said things which made me uneasy. First he was talking about the soldiers who were holding him - that he's middle class so they weren't the sort of people he could ever hold a conversation with (?) Second about Khaled Saeed - that he was middle class too so he could relate to him. He could have been his brother.
Dunno. Not sure how well those who do earn less than $2 a day are going to be represented.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: What will be most difficult for Egyptians is the idea of EQUALITY - that each voice, and vote, has the same value - that the dark skinned Nubian, the baweb's daughter, and the Christian shop keeper all have the same right to express their opinion at the polling booth as the wealthy businessman living in a villa in 6 October.
THIS, I believe, will be Egypt's challenge.
I completely disagree. You can't possibly be talking about Egypt. There no racism in Egypt (feel free to disagree), class system is not more than it is in any other culture. Sectarianism, maybe, yes I'll give you that, but it's not as serious as it was purported to be by the last regime. They had their agenda for that, to scare the west of Islamic movements. I honestly can't relate to what you're saying, or at least to how it sounds.
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
I don't mean racism (though I'm not convinced anywhere in the world is 100% free from that), but the class thing I agree 100%. I just don't see as it matters in the UK anymore. And I don't think it should do either. If I said "I'm sorry. I just can't hold a conversation with XXX because he's working class." I would not get a universal pat on the back - quite the contrary.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: What will be most difficult for Egyptians is the idea of EQUALITY - that each voice, and vote, has the same value - that the dark skinned Nubian, the baweb's daughter, and the Christian shop keeper all have the same right to express their opinion at the polling booth as the wealthy businessman living in a villa in 6 October.
THIS, I believe, will be Egypt's challenge.
I completely disagree. You can't possibly be talking about Egypt. There no racism in Egypt (feel free to disagree), class system is not more than it is in any other culture. Sectarianism, maybe, yes I'll give you that, but it's not as serious as it was purported to be by the last regime. They had their agenda for that, to scare the west of Islamic movements. I honestly can't relate to what you're saying, or at least to how it sounds.
No racism?
Really?
Then how would you explain the popularity of Fair & Lovely? Or the endless suitors proposing to a friend of my daughter's because her skin is light? Of course Egypt is racist - and WHITE IS RIGHT.
Live in Egypt, as a Christian, then tell me the sectarianism is created by the old regime.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
From what I have seen, heard and read, the class system is alive and well here in Egypt. Thriving no less. I don't see that ending anytime soon. Unfortunately.
From a country that is predominantly Muslim, you'd think or hope that they'd rise above all that junk but I guess not. It seems, like with many other cultures, that prejudices are passed from generation to generation in families, regardless of which "class" the people live in.
Posts: 1283 | From: Cairo | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Class system: I think it's rife in England (not the whole of the UK). I've never heard the words "working class" as much as I have in England. Talk about the North/South divide, etc. I don't know where everybody's from, but anybody who's lived in England will know that such issues there are subtle and convoluted (like everything Enlgish, lol).
Racism: As I said, please exercise your right of disagreeing with me, I have on problem with that. However, finding a particular look or complexion or body type for that matter, attractive doesn't mean that you find the opposite to be inherently inferior. Egyptians do not find dark people to be of lower intelligence or unworthy, etc. I used to live in LA and I know how racist the American society is (again feel free to disagree). When I went to rent a flat, to entice me to rent the owner blatantly told me we don't rent to black or Mexicans. That was only a few months after the LA riots in 1992. Some white people there truly believe that non-whites are inferior. I strongly maintain that this is not the situation in Egypt.
Sectarianism: I did NOT say it was created by the previous regime. I only said it was exaggerated by it. I also maintain that it wasn't this way in the past. I'm talking from personal experience. I do acknowledge that this is a complicated issue however, and the blame for it falls on all involved.
Posts: 56 | From: Da moon | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Amoun over the moon: Class system: I think it's rife in England (not the whole of the UK). I've never heard the words "working class" as much as I have in England.
Why? Is it second class elsewhere?
Working class is used here in a positive as well as a negative way. Some people are proud to be working class. Really.
I don't understand the north/south remark, sorry.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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