Subhaplogroups H1 and H3 are the dominant subgroups in the Iberian Peninsula (45% and 16%, respectively) and North Africa (42% and 13%, respectively) whereas unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East. Furthermore, while H1 (12%) is still the most frequent subgroup, followed by the H5 (8%) in the Near East, the modal subclades in the Arabian Peninsula are H2a1a (18%) and H6b (14%). The relative proximity of the Iberian Peninsula to the westernmost North African populations is graphically reflected in Figure 1a. It is evident that Tunisians and Berbers are closest to the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula. A principal component analysis (PCA) points to subhaplogroups H1 and H3 as being primarily responsible for the Iberian-Moroccan-Saharan connection, whereas H4, H5, H7, H8 and H11 testify the Near East influence (data not shown). Similarly, haplotypic based FST distances show a strong influence of the Iberian Peninsula on the Western Moroccan and Saharan North African populations, and indicate that Tunisians are comparatively the most remarkably influenced by the Near East (Table 2 and Figure 1b). The relative proximity of the Iberian Peninsula to the westernmost North African populations is graphically reflected in Figure 1a. It is evident that Tunisians and Berbers are closest to the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula. A principal component analysis (PCA) points to subhaplogroups H1 and H3 as being primarily responsible for the Iberian-Moroccan-Saharan connection, whereas H4, H5, H7, H8 and H11 testify the Near East influence (data not shown). Similarly, haplotypic based FST distances show a strong influence of the Iberian Peninsula on the Western Moroccan and Saharan North African populations, and indicate that Tunisians are comparatively the most remarkably influenced by the Near East (Table 2 and Figure 1b). Globally, North Africa shares a similar number of haplotypes with the Iberian Peninsula compared with the Near East (Table 3). However, a detailed analysis of the ratios between haplotypic identities relating each North African population with the Iberian Peninsula or the Near East confirms that the Western populations, comprising Moroccan Arabs, Saharans and Mauritanians, are the most notably influenced by the Iberian Peninsula, whereas the Tunisian Berbers, Tunisians, and the Moroccan Berbers have received relatively more gene flow from the Near East (Table 3). At this point, it is noteworthy that all the Arabian Peninsula haplotypes shared with North Africa are a subset of those shared by the latter with the Near East, pointing to a minor direct input of the Arabian Peninsula on the North African populations. Haplogroup (Table 1) and haplotype (Table 3) genetic diversities demonstrate that the Northwestern African populations (Moroccan Arabs and Saharans) are genetically less diverse than the more central Tunisian and Berbers, a fact that could be explained by a stronger Near East influence on the later populations. Although global haplogroup and haplotypic diversities are not statistically different among regions (Table 1 and 3), the European subgroup H1 appears to be significantly more diverse in the Near East (87 ± 5) than in the Iberian Peninsula (75 ± 3) or North Africa (67 ± 6). Moreover, the genetic diversity for the Western European subgroup H3, which is absent in the Near East, is also higher in North Africa (74 ± 9) than in the Iberian Peninsula (65 ± 6). Transformation of molecular genetic diversities in coalescence ages gives 18,345 ± 4,051, 14,201 ± 2,984, and 11,366 ± 2,354 years for H1 in the Near East, Iberian Peninsula and North Africa, respectively. On the other hand, the coalescence ages for H3 in the Iberian Peninsula (10,342 ± 2,634) and North Africa (10,866 ± 4,107) are similar. However, only H1 ages in Near East and North Africa are statistically different from each other.
______________________________ ^^math the more one reads your materials the more wrong you look
As described previously, total frequencies for the haplogroup H decline toward both the East and the South (Table 1). The haplogroup H represents 44% of the mtDNA variation in the Iberian Peninsula, but only 22% in the Near East. Likewise, this distribution still reaches 25% in North Africa, but drops to only 9% in the Arabian Peninsula....
Furthermore, while H1 (12%) is still the most frequent subgroup, followed by the H5 (8%) in the Near East, the modal subclades in the Arabian Peninsula are H2a1a (18%) and H6b (14%). P
-----Subhaplogroups H1 and H3 are the dominant subgroups in the Iberian Peninsula (45% and 16%, respectively) and North Africa (42% and 13%, respectively) whereas unclassified H haplotypes (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East.-----
Unclassifed means undifferentiated ie upstream. Your penance is...read it 500 times and get back to me....my Catholic upbringing.
H* is a sub-group of H just as H1 and H3 etc. It is "unclassified" because it is at the top/not mutated (see table) ie upstream.
Maybe you are really ONE person. Don't believe four of you can't get it. Can't simplify any further
Call me back in a few years...
BTW - For the bolded quotes- That is why they are suggesting that macro-group H originated in the Near East(not Europe). But H* is only a few percentage point more than central NA while the first mutation, H1, is virtualy absent in NE but high in both central NA and Iberia. This pattern suggest that NA is where Macro-group originated...especially looking at the frequency of the MUCH younger H-sub-clades. They try to BS their way through this issue by playing the Swenet's coalescene game.
Notice - H%(row) for NE/IP is 22/9 but for IB is 44. That is the percentage of ALL mtDNA Haplogroups. However of the H's, H* (unclassified/old) is 51% but H1 (first subgroup) is 12%. Infact all of the later sub-clades in NE has a lower frequency.(yes I trust 'frequency' - call me old fashion)
Tunisia on the otherhand has 48% H*. BUT has a higher frequency of the intermediate sub-clades.
Bottom line is- they are saying that the genes are diffusing from NE and IB to Central N Africa. The data shows the opposite, the Tunisian genes are diffusing towards NE and IB. They want to ignore the pattern/data therefore are using the coalescene fudge calculation. We will talk coalescene in the future once you get pass this .
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
This Africanist is 5 steps ahead of you. Ha! Ha!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Archaeology is against cultural and demic Iberian input at and following the coalescence time of H1,3 in WNW Africa. To me this means already in a few thousand years WNW African bearers of H1,3 etc., didn't act or too much look like their Iberian co-H1,3 bearers.
quote: Coalescence ages for H1 (11 ± 2 ky) and H3 (11 ± 4 ky) in North Africa point to the possibility of a late Palaeolithic settlement for these lineages similar to those found for other mtDNA haplogroups. . . . Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled additional mtDNA differences between North African and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously thought.
Sensible, especially considering during the LGM there was no ice blocking the way to the Maghreb and the strait was narrower than now. There was no need to wait for post-LGM climate induced expansion to move immediately southward though Last Glacial Arid Maximum conditions limited expansion much beyond the Maghreb.
Though culturally and somewhat phenotypically distinct Pre-Holocene NNW Africa and part of Iberia were geographically and climatically one region.
Keita's and Frigi's ideas on indigenous clades and/or sub-clades of some "EurAsian" haplogroups is supported by the above. It's not unreasonable to question African or Eurasian origins when examining co-existing pre-neolithic mtDNA hgs
Frequency, coalescence, and especially diversity values determine nrY and mtDNA haplogroup origins. Ennafaa notes no statistcal difference in the below.
If women were the potters cardial pottery seems an archaeolocical indicator for Neolithic Iberian phenotype females setting up shop immediately across the opposite strait.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.
Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Plaza S, Calafell F, Ben Amor M, Comas D, Bennamar El gaaied A. Source Laboratoire de Génétique Moléculaire, Immunologie et Biotechnologie, Faculté des Sciences de Tunis, Université Tunis El Manar, 2092 Tunis, Tunisia.
Abstract Berbers live in groups scattered across North Africa whose origins and genetic relationships with their neighbours are not well established. The first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region was sequenced in a total of 155 individuals from three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in North Africa. Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the Chenini-Douiret) are outliers within the North African genetic landscape. This outlier position is consistent with an isolation process followed by genetic drift in haplotype frequencies, and with the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to Arab samples as shown in the AMOVA. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the Arabization was mainly a cultural process rather than a demographic replacement.
_______________________________________________
Genetic structure of Tunisian ethnic groups revealed by paternal lineages
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.
Tunisia has experienced a variety of human migrations that have modeled the myriad cultural groups inhabiting the area. Both Arabic and Berber-speaking populations live in Tunisia. Berbers are commonly considered as in situ descendants of peoples who settled roughly in Palaeolithic times, and posterior demographic events such as the arrival of the Neolithic, the Arab migrations, and the expulsion of the “Moors” from Spain, had a strong cultural influence. Nonetheless, the genetic structure and the population relationships of the ethnic groups living in Tunisia have been poorly assessed. In order to gain insight into the paternal genetic landscape and population structure, more than 40 Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms and 17 short tandem repeats were analyzed in five Tunisian ethnic groups (three Berber-speaking isolates, one Andalusian, and one Cosmopolitan Arab). The most common lineage was the North African haplogroup E-M81 (71%), being fixed in two Berber samples (Chenini–Douiret and Jradou), suggesting isolation and genetic drift. Differential levels of paternal gene flow from the Near East were detected in the Tunisian samples (J-M267 lineage over 30%); however, no major sub-Saharan African or European influence was found. This result contrasts with the high amount of sub-Saharan and Eurasian maternal lineages previously described in Tunisia. Overall, our results reveal a certain genetic inter-population diversity, especially among Berber groups, and sexual asymmetry, paternal lineages being mostly of autochthonous origin. In addition, Andalusians, who are supposed to be migrants from southern Spain, do not exhibit any substantial contribution of European lineages, suggesting a North African origin for this ethnic group.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I also speculated that light skin is inherently human ie African - H. Norton et al, Blue eye also - Wasserman et al.
Straight hair also.
Modern Europeans are delusional to think they have a monopoly on any of these features.
That is why here are no races. All are Africans adapted to live in their respective ecological niche. Note the Andaman Islanders and New Guineans ahir type.
That is why AEians are black skin, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.
If Africans have light skin then why don't Egyptians who live in a country at a similarly distant latidude from the equator have skin as light as some of the Libyans in the anceint Egyptian art?
top row, Syrian, Nubian, Libyan bottom row, Egyptian , Syrian
Posts: 22247 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The authors are using frequency to suggest that H originated in the NE/AP(Upstream H*51%). Ignoring the also large 48% H* in central North Africa. In addition, they use frequency to suggest that H1(the first mutation ) originated in Iberia again ignoring the high percentage of H1 in Central North Africa., There is a reason why BOTH oldest branch of H (ie H* and H1), combined, is higher in Central North Africa and NOT in either the NE/AP or Iberia. Ignore that coalescence calculation BS.
Coalescence calculation is very subjective and very inaccurate. Coalescence age is based upon several different ASSUMPTIONS. That is why, depending on the author, you read AMH left Africa 40,000-125,000ya. That is a 85,000y difference. I don't know about you but 85,000y margin of inaccuracy is NOT very reliable ie story telling .
The only scientific reliable parameters, so far are, Frequency, and, Resolution(degree of variation). Frequency, is why they first concluded that Basque were the earliest Europeans which modern Europeans descended from. Resolution(new technology), changed their mind, Basque are in fact YOUNGER than modern Europeans. However, they occupied Iberia AHEAD of modern Europeanst!!! Ain't that a bitch! Migration pattern is really fascinating and good story telling. Similarly for Cruiciani and R-V88 thing. Resolution(think magnifying glass) determined that R-V88 is older in central Africa than North Africa. Thus leading the authors to conclude R-V88 is central African in origin and is NOT due to back-migration. Which Clyde and I alluded to years ago. We finally have the proof. Don't be surprise if others try to use coalescene age to prove otherwise in the future. Resolution helped determine the many sub-clades of R1b. This is why ISOGG is always updating. European R1b1b(7ya) is now R1b1a2a*. *= there are many more down-stream clades.
To Sage's Point. Keep in mind - Haplo-group does not mean race. Because there is no such thing. They are not really related. So I respectfully disagree with Dana - Tunisians look how they look due to their geographical location(higher UV latitude and being Saharan) - that is how nature best created them to survive, no admixture needed. Notice they are NOT Scandinavians. Now, since they inhabit the African continent and are indigenous they will show up in CODIS(STR) as African, just as all other Africans(paper cited) It all makes sense. But we try to apply our own modern prejudices to these people. They are African even if we eyeball them as European looking. The genes don't lie. So you see, what is under the skin/genes/(STR) is more important.
The Henn et al DATA correlates with Comas et al DATA. There is some BS in both but overall they agree. What some here are not getting is the objective of these research, which I cited and bolded earlier. Bottom line is they are trying to prove there are African speciifc hg-H sub-clades and European specific hg-H sub-clades and that their White European women did not migrate to Africa leaving their white men behind. You know , in search of black dick. LOL! Man! Modern day politics and prejudices are driving our research!
This is the first paper I have seen that compares mtDNA H and its SUBCLADES over the THREE continents. If anyone have similar papers please post?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.
Posts: 8791 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.
Anyways those type of studies often contradicts one another as demonstrated in this thread and multiples threads on this site, and often use small sample size and/or limited number of geographical sites (sample bias), so anybody who claims to know *the* truth, is wrong.
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How do they contradict each other? Which specific authors of the papers under discussion engage in sampling bias? Of what issues, exactly, can it be said that the truths geneticists' sought to uncover, haven't been resolved?
Posts: 8791 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: How do they contradict each other? Which specific authors of the papers under discussion engage in sampling bias? Of what issues, exactly, can it be said that the truths geneticists' sought to uncover, haven't been uncovered?
I already posted an example of sample bias and study contradictions in this thread (actually it was alTakruri who did).
posted
If you bow out you do us all the disfavor of a less rounded thread. Don't worry about winning or losing a debate. Thorough discussion must include all angles and every rational possibility. Pointing out myopia is also very necessary as it is just another form of bias. We need a factual presentation of African studies not a reactionary reverse colonialist "Africa uber alles" Weltanschauung.
That said, as long as there are valid sources, even 180° interpretations both hold weight. Hypotheses are just that until completely disconfirmed. No one's going to convince anybody they're wrong but the worldwide ES readership deserves every interpretation existing or newly analysed.
I can understand avoiding repetition because its weak and only impresses last worders. But surely there's room for expansion and precision from everybody on every proposition.
I, for one, relish hardnose critique. Without it how shall I see what I overlooked or never knew about so couldn't analyse to incorporate into my interpretations?
All of us who are willing to learn learn from each other.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: How do they contradict each other? Which specific authors of the papers under discussion engage in sampling bias? Of what issues, exactly, can it be said that the truths geneticists' sought to uncover, haven't been uncovered?
I already posted an example of sample bias and study contradictions in this thread (actually it was alTakruri who did).
You did NOT post an example of sample bias that justify your endless barrage of unfounded complaints at the address of Henn et al 2012. It was not the purpose of this paper to comprehensively map the entire North African genetic landscape, and none of the conclusions that they intended to draw required all samples to be representative, for the conclusions to be sound.
In short, you have not pointed out how the characteristics of Maghrebi component (the general theme of the paper) was affected by non-random sampling of Tunisians, or the other perceived issues you had with Henn et al 2012.
Additionally, Henn et al 2012 made no pretenses to frame any of their North African samples as representative for North Africa, indeed, they even stated that the study's observations regarding the Maghrebi component are not necessarily generalizable to other North Africans South of the sampled populations:
Although we observe a declining amount of Maghrebi ancestry from northwest-to-northeast, it is possible that other geographically North African samples (e.g. Egyptians further south than the sampled Siwa Oasis) do not conform to this geographic cline. --Henn et al 2012
Posts: 8791 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If you bow out you do us all the disfavor of a less rounded thread. Don't worry about winning or losing a debate. Thorough discussion must include all angles and every rational possibility. Pointing out myopia is also very necessary as it is just another form of bias. We need a factual presentation of African studies.
That said, as long as there are valid sources, even 180° interpretations both hold weight. Hypotheses are just that until completely disconfirmed. No one's going to convince anybody they're wrong but the worldwide ES readership deserves every interpretation existing or newly analysed.
I can understand avoiding repetition because its weak and only impresses last worders. But surely there's room for expansion and precision from everybody on every proposition.
I, for one, relish hardnose critique. Without it how shall I see what I overlooked or never knew about so couldn't analyse to incorporate into my interpretations?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.
posted
@ Swenet - But, god damn!, this shyte is fascinating. Don't you agree? We have gone way beyond the "who is Negro and who is Caucasian' infantile discourse. This is not clear as we would like it to be. And nature don't give a shyte what our politcal views are. Genetics is pushing things in a whole new direction. Europeans have the control so they can spin it how they want to. But the data is revealing.
Here we have a people(Tunisians) who may look "Caucasian", LOL!, the men carry African E1b1b*, the women carry a high frequency of supposedly European H1 and other H-sub-clade, (note the majority carry typical U6). They carry autosomal STR that would classify them as negroes per CODIS. As the English would say "what a pickle?".
Sergi got it right…
To the young newbie's out there. There are four books I recommend you read to really understand the world we live in. First you need to free your mind.
1. The Autobiography of Malcolm X - Start here. This only cracks open the door. Makes one understand the different transformations a (black)man can go through, through-out his life.
2. Fanon's - Black Skin White Mask - Cleanse the mind of the Eurocentric view of the world. Makes one understand why black men think the way they do. An objective criticism of the black mind by a globally well respected black man.
3. Chenweizu's - The West and the Rest of Us. - Understand enpowerment and power structure of the modern World, devoid of race. Makes one understand what really drives this world, and it is NOT race.
4. Sergi's - Mediterranean Race - Puts the ancient historical world in true perspective. And Africa's contribution to it.
Of course there are hundreds of other good ones. Diop and Henry Clark comes to mind. I would not recommend the Van Sertima nonsense.
BTW - Fanon provided data that showed that black men penis size is no larger than the white man's , to Cass's point. Don't hang around men acting as women, so I don't know. But when I read that I was floored. Here was a black man admiting that black men are average. Contrary to the Afro-centric dogma I believed then( JA Rogers). I still don't know…I don't much care. I am good and so is my son. Chip off the old block. He! He!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] To those that can follow the discussion.
The authors are using frequency to suggest that H originated in the NE/AP(Upstream H*51%). Ignoring the also large 48% H* in central North Africa.
xxyman how are you determining African origin for H* ?
You have given the figures about 50/50 for each region so how can you know which is the origin? Is it NE/AP or NA coud be either right?
But do you account for isolation. A haplogroup begins at point A. Some point A people migrate to a remote island B.
Over time the people who remianed at point A become mixed with all sorts of other people who come into their region.
The people in the remote island B retain their original genetic profile yet the point of origin of their haplogroup was point A
Posts: 43012 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Good question. Now you are asking the right questions. Since we have gotten past the frequency and math issue.
I answered your question already in an earlier post but since you seem to be catching on....
Yeah, H* is about 50/50 for both regions(NE/AP and NA). So, next, move on to the subsequent mutations, you look at the first mutation(sub-clade) from H*, ie H1. Which shows demic diffusion from Iberia, NA and then NE/AP in that order. So what the authors are proposing is H* diffuse East to West. Then first mutation, H1, diffuse West To East. Which makes absolutely no sense when you take into consideration the later mutations(sub-clades) eg H3 and H8. H3 and H8 is higher in North Africa compared to Iberia but virtually absent in the NE/AP. This pattern suggest a North African origin of mtDNA H. That is indicative of a SOURCE population! y-DNA E1* in Africa has the same pattern. Similarly R-M269 in Europe.
In fact North Africa has the largest AMOUNT AND FREQUENCY of ALL subclades of hg-H. Iberia exceeds North Africa in only ONE sub-clade ie H1. So obviously North Africa was the source not the other way around. Ignore that coalescene gimmick BS.
Quote: xxyman how are you determining African origin for H* ?
You have given the figures about 50/50 for each region so how can you know which is the origin? Is it NE/AP or NA coud be either right? Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I agree, Im actually enjoying XXy and Swenet's POVs on this study. Ive learned from both posters.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If you bow out you do us all the disfavor of a less rounded thread. Don't worry about winning or losing a debate. Thorough discussion must include all angles and every rational possibility. Pointing out myopia is also very necessary as it is just another form of bias. We need a factual presentation of African studies not a reactionary reverse colonialist "Africa uber alles" Weltanschauung.
That said, as long as there are valid sources, even 180° interpretations both hold weight. Hypotheses are just that until completely disconfirmed. No one's going to convince anybody they're wrong but the worldwide ES readership deserves every interpretation existing or newly analysed.
I can understand avoiding repetition because its weak and only impresses last worders. But surely there's room for expansion and precision from everybody on every proposition.
I, for one, relish hardnose critique. Without it how shall I see what I overlooked or never knew about so couldn't analyse to incorporate into my interpretations?
All of us who are willing to learn learn from each other.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm done with this thread. Said my piece and I see simple population genetics understandings applied readily to other populations' gene pools when it supports the African cause, are subject to acute amnesia and ES members are obviously struck with the exact same biases they accuse Euronuts of when it comes to the inconvenient coalescence ages and origin of North African mtDNAs. Sad, really. The message going out from these acrobatics: if you want to discuss North African population histories, stay away from ES.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
As I said, if anyone has a similar study, please post? Even if it is contrary. This is the only one I have seen thus far. 1. 3 continents. 2. High resolution analysis of mtDNA hg-H
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: I am not Eurocentric I just think North Africa has been somewhat mixed with Levantine/Med popualtions or intermediate with those populations for a few to several thousands of years...
Tell us something we don't already know. Coastal North Africa was colonized by the Phoenicians during the Iron Age and then Greeks, Romans, and then came the Arab-Islamic invasion, after which came the Ottoman Turkish Empire, then European Vandals etc. etc.
That still does not change the fact that the ABORIGINAL populace i.e. indigenous peoples were BLACK Africans. End of story. Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
"SubSaharan Africans has been identified as the part of the world with the greatest genetic diversity.This high levl of diversity causes difficulties for genome-wide association studies[GWA]studies in African populations-for example,by reducing the accuracy o genotype imputation in African populations compared to non-African populations".[Lucy Huang etal 2011] Question:Did Henn etal avoid this pitfall in this study of North African Ancestry?What Huang etal is saying is that the high diversity and low Linkage Disequilibrium in African populations must influence the design of GWA studies.
Posts: 121 | From: Guyana | Registered: Mar 2012
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posted
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia
Antonio Torroni5 , Alessandro Achilli et al
Excerpt
There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and [u]Tunisia [/u]became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples (****AND IBERIAN!!!!****), HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).
Indeed, Moroccans and TUNISIANS, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices{/b]. Thus, the coastal areas of northwestern Africa, after the arrival of the Iberian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of North Africa.
NOOOO!!! – conversely !!! Thus, the coastal areas of Europe, after the arrival of the Tunisian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of Europe
=======================================
Someone talk me off the ledge. For those who can follow. Sage, Swenet, others. A- Ra Ultimate give it a shot, See above. I wonder how long they will keep up the lie(delusion) of Iberia being a source of mt-DNA H1. The more I read the more I am convinced it is Central North Africa maybe present day Tunisia.
There are essentially two ways of determining origin of a Haplogroup eg mt-DNA H1.
1. Geographic Frequency
2. Resolution(think magnifying glass) = older HG shows more variation or diversity
Eg Africans have more genetic diversity ie older….The data shows, yet again, just as in other recent studies, the diversity of H1 is higher in Tunisia compared to all other African groups, even larger than Morocco the supposedly entry point of Europeans into North Africa.
Notice also they did NOT include the diversity value for Iberia or Sardinia(2nd Image table). Common sense or simple logic states they should have include Iberia. Why? Their premise. the H1 is older in Iberia and was the jump off point, Iberia should have the highest diversity. There wouldn’t be any doubt if Iberia was included. Iberia however was NOT included in the data set.
That is really suspicious. Now they may put it out there that the intent of the study was to the origin of H1 IN Africa. But even that is wrong, the data shows Tunisia NOT Morocco has the highest H1 diversity in Africa. Which proves their premise FALSE. Someone tell me I am wrong!! Am I the most intelligent here?
So the title of the study is…again…misleading. Their lies are really sophisticated. There is no proof of what they are saying. The data shows essentially there was H1 migration from Tunisia(CAN) to the rest of North Africa and not from Morocco to the rest of North Africa.
Essentially, they started with the premise/fantasy of Iberian women(not men-but give the impression men were included) migrating over to Africa without providing that data however the data prove the migration from Tunisia to the rest of North African….not even Morocco!! To date there is no genetic data showing European males migrating to Africa pre-Iron age.
They will soon rescind that nonsense theory about back-migration of European women into North Africa. Give Torroni a few more years , he is BSing just much as Cruciani. Remember Cruciani et al and back migration of E1b1b from Asia to North Africa. Which was proven wrong. Then R-V88 back-migration to Cameroon area which was also recently proven wrong.
Got to admit these guys got some Kahunas!!. I guess they believe no one can understand this stuff.
Note(2nd image):
MOST mtDNA H Haplotype diversity= Tunisia
MOST nucleotide diversity = Tunisia
MOST Avg number of nucleotide differences= Tunisia
Most Number of Haplotypes = Tunisia is a close second
Highest frequency H1 is Tunisia/Libya are (including Europe) – 1 st image
From previous study, highest frequency of H* is Tunisia and Iberians Peninsula/Levant.
There is a common theme here….Tunisia
The only thing they are relying on for an Iberian origin is COALESCENCE age , which error can vary by +/-10K years….ANYONE?!
Come to think of it was coalescence age also used to explain the back-migration of E1b1b to North Africa? Got to research that.
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You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@ XYYman
Can't tell your commentary from the original real text. Why not case text between quote tags and do not add to it?
Right now I'm charting uniparental hgs and major subclades by letter, coalesce age, "assumed" geo origin, and migration eras to help make sense out of disparent hgs like H1, U6, and R1b.
That's for my OoA thread for which I'm also pouring over old ethnography books I used to own like The Secret Museum of Mankind and Hutchinson's Customs for hair, faces, costume, and economy before worldwide local traditions adopted Euro standards in grooming and dress (not to mention plastic surgery).
Also using interlibrary loan for Muzzolini and Hachid on Saharan rock art, particularly those anomalous chalk white guys of the Tin Anneuin school. They're spread from Tassili to Fezzan.
BTW hg E fits with the OoA derivations and timeframes when folk were going back and forth between the Horn and SW Arabian peninsula! This gives ethnocentrics ammunition for E as a back migration from "Eurasia" but obviously not from any current "Eurasian looking" people -- you know, caucasoid; refreshing the 'Hamitic Hypothesis' and 'Myth of the Negro' just moved back 10s of millenia in time.
Just because the science is new doesn't mean the geneticists aren't using notions of 19th and 20th century physical anthropologists and even today's forensic anthropologists.
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Will repost later....but it is looks like H1 is maybe NA-Tunisia origin. Trying to get my hands on current data showing H1 origin in Iberia.
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I am willing to embarassing myself...to learn or, expose math short comings (lioness). If you don't understand, festup. Not sure you understand my point. Or may be it is me. I am saying H1 has highest frequency and diverstity in NA compared to Iberia. Tell me I am wrong!!!! I am willing to look a fool. Anyone!!!??? No false pride with this bad boy....
This not a dickfest...you would lose....just kidding. Educate us. Sounds like you stumbling or bsing!!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.
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posted
@ Sage. Difficult to work from Tablet. Better feedback later.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
One time there was a resident here who posed as an expert, he was exposed as a fraud. I believe it was Sage who exposed him. I second guest what that person writes, now. Most of it is just copy and paste….and very little and if any analytical thinking. I will leave it at that.
SO!!!! Educate us. Are you blowing smoke? I am always up for a healthy intelligent discussion. I know some here are a step ahead of me with the history and archaeology of these Mediterranean civilizations. But since I joined ES I have surpassed most.….Hats off to Sage, Dana, Jari, etc even Lioness has some knowledge on the archeology and hostory
That said…. like all young brothas…I try to develop them.. Your post sounds like you don’t know and have little analytical prowess…why? What you said here makes absolutely no sense. I put you in either of two category. A house neg (appeaser) or not to bright.
First – I am talking H1 not R1b. We will get to R1b later.
I am saying H1 has the highest frequency and diversity (ie age) in North Africa compared to Europe. Please prove me wrong. And what are you on about hunter-gatherers and the population they tested in Iberia? That is my point.. There is no data on Iberians. Where did that stupid remark come from. Besides, according to you Europe essentially remained unchanged since Paleolithic times(refugia theory). LOL!
Second – I am not sure what is the point of the R1b comment. Do you mean R1b1a2* is the mate for H1? Europeans are R1b1a2* (M-269) which is younger than African (R-V88) R1b1c,d ?(ISOGG). R1b is a term people use to either claim back-migration of Eurasian to Africa which we know now is not true. R1b, in the strictest sense is NOT European.
You do realize what the real issue is ...right? …European women migrating to Africa without their men. I hope you get it.
Listen man if you don’t know. Don’t waste my time. Stay on the sidelines or post on what you have some knowledge on.
You do realize what you saying right….Essentially what you are saying is…these researchers are smarter than me so I going to believe whatever they write.. That is a sure sign if an idiot.
Prove me wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.
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posted
^^Another retard . No Lioness the researchers are saying highest frequency = origin. That is a long standing view. Also diversity = age and origin .
I am saying Tunisians have both age and frequency for H1 compared to Europeans. That is what the data says. Prove me wrong!!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:No Lioness the researchers are saying highest frequency = origin
Please post these researchers because I've never heard of them.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am willing to embarassing myself...to learn or, expose math short comings (lioness). If you don't understand, festup. Not sure you understand my point. Or may be it is me. I am saying H1 has highest frequency and diverstity in NA compared to Iberia. Tell me I am wrong!!!! I am willing to look a fool. Anyone!!!??? No false pride with this bad boy....
This not a dickfest...you would lose....just kidding. Educate us. Sounds like you stumbling or bsing!!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're not understanding the population histories implied here. The Iberians you're using as comparative samples don't all descend from those hunter gatherers. Have you seen the R1b frequencies in Iberia? They're among the highest in Europe. This wouldn't have been the case in the hunter gatherers 10kya, who were mostly NRY G. Just stop it. Don't embarrass yourself any further.
You've already had your mind made up from the onset. You're seeking out evidence that corroborates your pre-conceived notion, while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
Example: H1 didn't spread in isolation from Iberian refuge areas. Its linked to similar aged clades that included H3, U5 and V. These expansions spilled over not just into Northern Africa, but into the rest of Europe as well. If H originated in Northern Africa, it would have participated in the re-peopling of Europe. Since your proposal is that H originated in Northern Africa, there should be low freq Maghrebi mtDNAs all over Europe. Additionally, the admixture events that H, U5 and V clades represent should also register as (partly) North African in autosomal analysis of Europeans. Prey tell, what studies have uncovered these Maghrebi autosomal componants and/or mtDNAs?
quote:First – I am talking H1 not R1b. We will get to R1b later.
I know you aren't talking about R1b. Its something your ignorance of the situation caused you to overlook. Do you think R1b carrying males from outside of Europe didn't have mtDNAs that changed the original frequencies of H1? Do you think their women didn't have mtDNAs that changed the European mtDNA landscape?
quote:Second – I am not sure what is the point of the R1b comment. Do you mean R1b1a2* is the mate for H1?
^All the evidence right here that you simply don't know what you're talking about. I mention the mtDNA demographic changes implied in R1b becoming BY FAR the dominant Y chromosome in post Eneolithic Iberia, and you stumble to see the implications of what I'm saying, as if I just asked you compute the distance between Mars and the Earth in nanometers.
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xyyman I have already explained your dumbness over frequency = origin. A population in isolation may preserve the highest frequency of given hg yet that may not be the point of origin, when will you get it ?
posted
^ What about both frequency and diversity along with archaeology that disproves your mixed-up theories?
Both mtDNA hg H and U if they really are Eurasian entered Africa the same time as NRY hg R. Yet how come I don't see you claiming West Africans like Cameroonians as mixed?? Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For those who are wondering where this is taking us…Based upon the data what we have here is several, distinct migration of AMH into Europe, most likely at different points of entry. Some from the Near East , some from North Africa, some from the Steppes of Asia. However through environmental pressures they all look the same. Proof again that nature has the final word….no admixture needed.
Furthermore what they look like now may be completely different to what they looked like when they entered Europe. The same goes for AMH in Africa. They probably looked different several thousand years ago. NA Berbers are geographically African and CODIS STRs prove it. Now we have H1 Africans with African STRs and H1 Europeans with European STRs. Proof again - Race does not exist. This is really fascinating.. So Lioness don’t try to box people in your limited world view.
Case in point - News that Rameses III is E1b1a. Here we have a “Caucasoid” mummy having the worst “Negroid” Haplogroup ever. And he wasn’t the only mummy like this, ALL mummies tested so far are genetically sub-saharan; see Amarnas. LOL!! Geography don’t lie. “Political” Scientist do…pun intended. He! He!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Anyone, I hope you understand the question. Provide a study that shows data that Iberia has the higher diversity(age), frequency (amount) and maybe coalescence age combined, compared with populations in North Africa, particularly Tunisia. In other words prove to me H1 is European. Provide the study from any decade. 1980’s to current. Please do not quote that Achilli et al 2004 or Torroni et al 2006. Though relevant, they studies focuses either on Europe ONLY or frequency, not all three..
If you don’t know…stay on the side lines.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Anyone, I hope you understand the question. Provide a study that shows data that Iberia has the higher diversity(age), frequency (amount) and maybe coalescence age combined, compared with populations in North Africa, particularly Tunisia. In other words prove to me H1 is European. Provide the study from any decade. 1980’s to current. Please do not quote that Achilli et al 2004 or Torroni et al 2006. Though relevant, they studies focuses either on Europe ONLY or frequency, not all three..
If you don’t know…stay on the side lines.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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What the fyuck are you talking about DJ? Stay on the side lines …….please. U6 is African, U5 Sardinian. Please STFU if you don’ t having anything sensible to contribute…..
Those one line responses don’t cut it. If you want to be involved in the discussion provide and analyze data
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What about both frequency and diversity along with archaeology that disproves your mixed-up theories?
Both mtDNA hg H and U if they really are Eurasian entered Africa the same time as NRY hg R. Yet how come I don't see you claiming West Africans like Cameroonians as mixed??
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Case in point - News that Rameses III is E1b1a. Here we have a “Caucasoid” mummy having the worst “Negroid” Haplogroup ever. And he wasn’t the only mummy like this, ALL mummies tested so far are genetically sub-saharan; see Amarnas. LOL!! Geography don’t lie. “Political” Scientist do…pun intended. He! He! [/QB]
a remarkable theory, the so called "Caucasian" originated in Africa and only later left Africa
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Anyone, I hope you understand the question. Provide a study that shows data that Iberia has the higher diversity(age), frequency (amount) and maybe coalescence age combined, compared with populations in North Africa, particularly Tunisia. In other words prove to me H1 is European. Provide the study from any decade. 1980’s to current. Please do not quote that Achilli et al 2004 or Torroni et al 2006. Though relevant, they studies focuses either on Europe ONLY or frequency, not all three..
If you don’t know…stay on the side lines.
You challenge people and ask to be proven wrong and then repeatedly run with your tail between your legs when it gets too hot under your feet, as if your name was Roberto ''no mas'' Durán.
You get all excited about North African H1 diversity, like a loud eccentric child, but table 2 doesn't even display European H1 diversity amounts, and neither does the text that you posted.
posted
Just as I thought....you don't know!. Ha! I thought you were capable.
If you don't know the basics then there is no discussion. ie frequency, diversity, and coalescence age determine origin ...then you are right. Let's end it here.
You are dismissed, no dis-respect intended brotha, but let's move on.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] [QUOTE]No Lioness the researchers are saying highest frequency = origin
Please post these researchers because I've never heard of them. [QUOTE]quote:
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Charting is a lot of work. But if you can get it right it will be revealing. It is important to get the nomenclature right. To be sure we are comparing apples and apples. That is the major problem pawing through these studies. Inconsistent naming system makes it difficult to follow. As I said, it would nice to see a study that includes ALL parameters. Frequency, coalescence age , diversity, across the continents. That’s would settle this issue. To date I haven’t seen anything. Achilli et al 2004, 2006 attempted to do this on hg-H, but the resolution back then was not as sophisticated as today. That paper focuses primarily on FREQUENCY to come to their conclusion. They start with a premise(fairy tale) of the Refugia Theory. Frequency data shows Iberia and Sardinia are 1st and 2nd in Europe. Morocco and Tunisia are 1st and 2nd in Africa. And for those who don’t know, Sardinia is an island off the coast of .....TUNISIA!!! yes Tunisia!!!.
In my above cited study(2nd image) , the resolution shows that Morocco/Tunisia has the greatest diversity and they therefore conclude the Libyan Taureg is NOT the point of origin. However Tunisia’s diversity is significantly higher than Morocco’s but they do not apply the same logic and insist the initial source was via Morocco. And as I said, including Iberia in that 2nd image would make it clearer. Because according to the study title this is their premise. It is one of those “trust me” thing. H1 originated in Iberia but we are not going to show you the data. Reminds me of their E1b1b originating in the Near East fiasco. History repeats itself. Please post chart when you done.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler @ XYYman
Right now I'm charting uniparental hgs and major subclades by letter, coalesce age, "assumed" geo origin, and migration eras to help make sense out of disparent hgs like H1, U6, and R1b. .
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Disparent indeed for H1. The issue for U6 is settled. And for R1b please use contemporary nomenclature. Depending on who wrote the paper it may be R1b=R1b1b=R1b1a2*=R-M269.
And agreed – that is why I remarked “political” scientist. LOL!
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler
@ XYYman
….. disparent hgs like H1, U6, and R1b.
--------Just because the science is new ****doesn't mean the geneticists aren't using notions of 19th and 20th century physical anthropologists***** and even today's forensic anthropologists.
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It is not a "theory". All manner of data proves it. Culturally, osteometrically, anthropoligically, lingusitically and finally genetically.
What you have for your argument, like most Euronuts, are pictures showing some similarities between some AEians and Europeans. But there is lot more similarites between AEians and modern day sub-saharans.
Besides that you got nada. Your entire premise, like Cass's, is based on look-a-like.
You can't be taken seriously.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Case in point - News that Rameses III is E1b1a. Here we have a “Caucasoid” mummy having the worst “Negroid” Haplogroup ever. And he wasn’t the only mummy like this, ALL mummies tested so far are genetically sub-saharan; see Amarnas. LOL!! Geography don’t lie. “Political” Scientist do…pun intended. He! He!
a remarkable theory, the so called "Caucasian" originated in Africa and only later left Africa [/QB]
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notice the high FREQUENCY of H in Sardinia. The study is old(2004). Since then technology has improved and more sampling has taken place in North Africa. As of 2010 highest FREQUENCY and more diversity is found in Tunisia area.
The Nile region continue to be low in sub-clades of H. Prompting that "barrier" paper. Apparently hg-H could not penetrate the Nile Valley. Further proof it(hgH*) did NOT originate in the NE.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What the fyuck are you talking about DJ? Stay on the side lines …….please. U6 is African, U5 Sardinian. Please STFU if you don’ t having anything sensible to contribute…..
Those one line responses don’t cut it. If you want to be involved in the discussion provide and analyze data
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What about both frequency and diversity along with archaeology that disproves your mixed-up theories?
Both mtDNA hg H and U if they really are Eurasian entered Africa the same time as NRY hg R. Yet how come I don't see you claiming West Africans like Cameroonians as mixed??
What!! Mothafucka, I am much more knowledgeable and have a way better grasp of the data than you! Swenet is right, you are nothing more than an amateur who talks like he's an expert when you barely know what you're talking about!! So if anyone needs to STFU it is YOU!
By the way, my post above was toward lyinass not YOU!
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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a remarkable theory, the so called "Caucasian" originated in Africa and only later left Africa
Nope! The FACT is there is NO such thing as "Caucasian". Your picture of Ramses mummy means nothings since we have actual painted portraits of him showing how he looked liked in real life as well as x-rays of the actual skull which show African affinities. We know you like to post pictures of mummies and then 'jump to conclusions' but it ain't working. Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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OoopS!! Killing time before the game. Would be nice if that Ghanian/Germany kid get that MVP.
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posted
Any takers...? In case you are wondering? This proves Torrinni's Refugia Theory and the recolonization of Europe is BS ...give them about a year they will come completely around. H1 are recent African migrants to Europe. It is so simple...compare the diversity of H1 in Europe to Africa.
QUOTE:
================ Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.
García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM.
Source
Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain.
Abstract
It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.
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So there you have it...both modern European (female)H1 and (male)R1b1a2* did not originate from the Basque population which is the basis of the Refugia recolonization theory.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mothafucka, I am much more knowledgeable and have a way better grasp of the data than you! Swenet is right, you are nothing more than an amateur who talks like he's an expert when you barely know what you're talking about!! So if anyone needs to STFU it is YOU!
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