quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Name me an Arab tribe that is not called black in an early text. That is all I am asking.
All Arabs whether Qahtan/Peleg, Mustarab or the supposedly extinct ones like Amalik and Thamud.
Your question seems reasonable and not too difficult of a task.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Name me an Arab tribe that is not called black in an early text. That is all I am asking.
All Arabs whether Qahtan/Peleg, Mustarab or the supposedly extinct ones like Amalik and Thamud.
Your question seems reasonable and not too difficult of a task.
Yes it would seem that way for sure. To make it even easier if they want I will even name all of the early major tribes of Arabia and let them pick and choose. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Name me an Arab tribe that is not called black in an early text. That is all I am asking.
All Arabs whether Qahtan/Peleg, Mustarab or the supposedly extinct ones like Amalik and Thamud.
Your question seems reasonable and not too difficult of a task.
Yes it would seem that way for sure. To make it even easier if they want I will even name all of the early major tribes of Arabia and let them pick and choose.
What arouses is that the people like, for example, Turks, Afghani do acknowledge what you've stated. On many occasions I have heard Turkish folks refer to "African descent people" as Arab.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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For example, we could start with the Baliyy who by early Muslim times had moved into Palestine and were described as fair at a relatively early period.
Then all we would have to do is look at which tribe they came from and how they were described elsewhere.
You see people aren't getting it. Just because their are fair-skinned Arab speakers who have moved into Iraq and Syria today doesn't mean the original ones didn't look African.
Just because Iranic Scythians traders came into the Yemen doesn't mean there were tribes of Scythians that came to be called "Arab".
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: For example, we could start with the Baliyy who by early Muslim times had moved into Palestine and were described as fair at a relatively early period.
Then all we would have to do is look at which tribe they came from and how they were described elsewhere.
You see people aren't getting it. Just because their are fair-skinned Arab speakers who have moved into Iraq and Syria today doesn't mean the original ones didn't look African.
Just because Iranic Scythians traders came into the Yemen doesn't mean there were tribes of Scythians that came to be called "Arab".
I remember this page by some random Dutch person who visited the Sinai Bedouin.
He dedicated this vacation blog, and Called it: By "the Real Bedouin"
Meanings of the keywords used to describe the complexion With regards to the meanings and connotation of the words used to describe the complexion we must remember that in any language it’s the usage of the words that matters more than their dictionary meanings. To facilitate things for non Arabic readers, the dictionary meanings of the keywords around which the discussion revolves are given, as it will help understand their usage better. All the meanings are from Edward William Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon.
Meaning of Adam/Udma;
آدم Of the colour termed أُدمة (Book I, p.37)
أُدمة... and in human beings, a tawny colour; or darkness of complexion; syn. سُمرة or an intermixture, or a tinge, of blackness or intense سُمرة (Book I, p.36)
Meaning of Asmar/Sumra:
أسمر [Tawny, or brownish; dusky; dark-complexioned or dark-coloured;] of the colour termed سُمرة (Book I, p.1426)
سُمرة [A tawny, or brownish, colour, of various shades, like the various hues of wheat; duskiness; darkness of complexion or colour;] certain colour, well known, between white and black, … (Book I, p.1425)
Meaning of Ahmar/Humrah:
حُمرة [Redness;] a well-known colour; (Msb, K;) the colour of that which is termed أحمر …. But when relating to complexion, whiteness; (Book I, p.640)
Meaning of Azhar/Zuhrah:
أزهر Shining; giving light; bright. (S.,K) …. White; (S.,K;) and beautiful: (K. or of a bright white colour: (TA:) or of any shining colour: (AH.n,R:) (Book I, p.1262)
زُهرة Whiteness; (Yaakoon,S,K;) and beauty: (K:) whiteness, or fairness, characteristic of good birth: (S:) or bright whiteness: (TA:) or any shining colour. (AHn,R) (Book I, p.1262)
How the Arabs use the words? As Mr. Wesley said, Imam al-Dhahbi has described as to how the Arabs use these words. Here are the actual words of al-Dhahbi (d. 748 A.H.) and their rightful translation:
“When Arabs say; So and so is ‘abyad’, they mean a wheatish complexion with slight darkness (hintiy al-lawn bi-hilyatin sawda). And if it is the complexion the People of India they say, ‘asmar’ and ‘adam’. And if it is of Toucouleur Negroes (sawad al-Takrur) they say ‘aswad’ and likewise everyone whose complexion is overwhelmingly black; they call, ‘aswad’ or ‘shadid-ul-udmah’.” (Siyar ‘Alam al-Nubula 1/39 & 3/448, Darul Hadith, Cairo 2006)
In the second instance where these words appear, al-Dhahbi continues:
فَمَعْنَى ذَلِكَ: أَنَّ بَنِي آدَمَ لا ينفكون، عن أحد الأمرين. وكل لَوْنٍ بِهَذَا الاعْتِبَارِ يَدُوْرُ بَيْنَ السَّوَادِ وَالبَيَاضِ الَّذِي هُوَ الحُمْرَةُ.
“So this means, mankind cannot escape either of these two things (fairness and darkness of complexion). And every complexion is a shade between blackness and, whiteness which (in this context) is redness.” .”(Siyar ‘Alam al-Nubula 3/448)
Word about the trickery of Mr. Wesley on this quotation follows towards the end of the article.
Meaning of ‘Abyad’ when used for people:
Mr. Wesley also tends to argue that Arabs use ‘abyad’ not to mean whiteness of complexion but the purity of one’s character. It might be used to mean purity of one’s character but to say that it is not used to mean whiteness of complexion is a mistake. This is evident from the very page of the classical work Lisan al-‘Arab from which Wesley quoted, but he failed to be honest enough to present the whole thing. Moreover, this can be said of some usage only, there are instances when the statements categorically relate ‘abyad’ to color/complexion. We shall see the details of Lisan al-‘Arab quote towards the end. And the examples forcing the understanding of ‘abyad’ relating to colour/complexion will fall within our scope of discussion.
Principle of ‘addad’
Coming to the idea of ‘addad’ (a word understood to imply the opposite of its first meaning) which Wesley brings forward, this might be the case in some rare instances. But if it’s with regard to colors in some contexts it does not mean ‘addad’ applies always. To suggest this is insanity. And again we shall see some usages that just do not allow any such sense of the word.
Complexion of the Prophet (peace be upon him)
Here in a quote narrations from different Companions about the complexion of the Holy Prophet –peace be upon him.
Abu Bakr (RA)
On being questioned about the appearance of Holy Prophet (pbuh) by a monk, Abu Bakr (RA) said:
أبيض اللون، مشرب بحمرة
“White in complexion (abyad al-lawn), imbued with redness.” (Kanzul Ummal, Hadith 18524 cf. al-Zawzni, Abdul Razzaq)
Same is mentioned in al-Ins al-Jalil bi-Tarikh al-Quds wal Khalil of Abdul Rahman bin Muhammad al-‘Alimi (d. 928 A.H.)
Now here the fact that ‘abyad’ is attached with the word ‘lawn’ (lit. colour) kills the idea that it is all about character.
‘Umar (RA):
Ibn ‘Asaakir (d. 571 A.H.) quotes;
Bashir al-‘Abdi says, people came to ‘Umar bin al-Khattab and asked him about the appearance of the Holy Prophet –peace be upon him. He said:
كان نبي الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) أبيض اللون مشربا حمرة
“The Prophet of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was of white complexion (abyad al-lawn) imbued with redness (mushraban humrah).” (Tarikh Damishq 3/264 No. 653, Dar al-Fikr, Beirut 1995)
‘Aisha (RA):
Ibn Asaakir also gives the following narration:
عن عائشة قالت أهدي للنبي (صلى الله عليه وسلم) شملة سوداء فلبسها وقال كيف ترينها علي يا عائشة قلت ما أحسنها عليك يا رسول الله يشوب سوادها بياضك وبياضك سوادها
Narrated ‘Aisha: A black turban (shimlatu sawda) was gifted to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), he put it on and asked, ‘How do you see on me O ‘Aisha?” I said, “How beautiful it looks on you O the Messenger of Allah! Its blackness (sawaduha) suits on your whiteness (bayadak) and your whiteness (bayadak) on its blackness (sawaduha). (Tarikh Damishq 3/310-311 No. 705)
Now this leaves nothing ambiguous. Here blackness (sawad) of turban is brought in contrast to whiteness/fairness (bayad) of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), so it cannot be anything of the kind of addad or any other sense of ‘bayad’.
Jabir bin ‘Abdullah (RA):
In Tabqatul Kubra, also sometimes referred to as, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, we read:
عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ قَالَ: كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلّى الله عليه وسلم أَبْيَضَ مُشْرَبًا بِحُمْرَةٍ
Jabir bin ‘Abdullah said: “The Messenger of Allah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was of white complexion imbued with redness (abyad mushraban bi-humrah).” (Tabqat al-Kubra 1/419, Dar al-Sader Beirut 1968)
Abu Huraira (RA):
Similar Abu Huraira (RA) narrates that some Bedouins came and inquired about the Holy Prophet –peace be upon him, the Companions guided him. Saying this Abu Huraira (RA) describes how the Prophet appeared, saying:
وكان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أبيض مشربا بحمرة
“The Messenger of Allah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was of white complexion imbued with redness (abyad mushraban bi-humrah).” (Kanzul Ummal 18533)
‘Ali (RA):
Another very close companion of the Holy Prophet –peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, ‘Ali (RA) described the complexion of the Holy Prophet in the following words:
“He had white complexion, his whiteness being imbued with redness (abyad musharraban bayaduhu humrah) and his iris was black (awsad).” (Dalail al-Nubuwwah lil-Baihaqi 1/212-213 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyya Beirut 1405 A.H.)
Reports to this effect from ‘Ali (RA) are found in many works of Hadith.
Abu Tufail (RA):
According to Sahih Muslim, when Jurairi asked the last to die Companion, about the Holy Prophet –peace and blessings of Allah be upon him- he said:
كَانَ أَبْيَضَ مَلِيحًا
“He was beautifully white (abyada malihan).” (Sahih Muslim 2340 Darul Ahya al-Turath, Beirut)
Abu Umamah (RA):
Ibn Sa’d in his Tabaqat al-Kubra narrates from Abu Umamah that he described about the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, as:
رَجُلًا أَبْيَضَ تَعْلُوهُ حُمْرَةٌ
“A man of white complexion with red tinge in it (abyad ta’luhu humrah).” (Tabaqat al-Kubra 1/413)
Anas (RA):
There are numerous narrations from the Anas (RA) about the complexion of the Holy Prophet –peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
Rab’ia bin Abdul Rahman narrates from Anas (RA) who while describing the appearance of the Holy Prophet said: وَلَا بِالْأَبْيَضِ الْأَمْهَقِ، وَلَا بِالْآدَمِ
“And he was neither white as lime (abyad al-amhaq) , nor brown (adam).” (Shama’il Tirmidhi, Hadith 1)
Same is narrated in Tabawat al-Kubra of Ibn Sa’d etc.
This narration has important points pertinent to our discussion. The very fact that the narration says ‘abyad al-amhaq’ i.e. ‘white as lime’ belies the assertion that ‘abyad’ does not mean ‘whiteness’ when used for complexion.
Also the wording asks one to laugh at Wesley’s idea of taking ‘abyad’ to mean the opposite for it is unfathomable to find some sane person saying, ‘black as lime.’
Also it proves the complexion of the Holy Prophet –may Allah bless him- was far from being dark for in that case there was no need to say it was not lime white - a sharp contrast to blackness.
In fact his complexion was white but not extremely white. The detail of it is explained in another narration from Anas (RA).
Humayd said, he heard Anas (RA) saying:
وَكَانَ أَبْيَضَ بَيَاضُهُ إِلَى السُّمْرَةِ
“And he was white (abyad), his whiteness leaning to be tan (bayaduhu ilas-sumrah).” (Dala’il al-Nubuwah 1/204)
This Hadith shows his complexion was not even pure ‘asmar’ (tan) but rather something between pure white and pure tan. Surely describing complexion is not very easy!
In another narration from Anas (RA) we learn,
Thabit narrated from Anas (RA) describing the complexion of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, as:
And al-Iraqi said, “These words are the solitary report of Anas through Humayd and reports of others from him (Anas) come with the word ‘azhar al-lawn’. Further we see reports from (Companions) other than Anas, all of them describe it with whiteness and not tawny complexion and they are fifteen companions explain his complexion like this –peace and blessings be upon him.” (Jama’ al-Wasa’il fi Sharah al-Shama’il 1/14)
Prophet Muhammad’s –may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him- complexion was not purely tan, it was white tending to be tan or white imbued with redness, not white as lime, neither dark nor purely tan.
This narration is rather odd and for the fact that it goes against all the narrations from other companions and even other reports from Anas (RA). It is reported through a single narrator i.e. Humayd and even his narrations do not consistently say the same. As mentioned above in one narration Humayd himself reports from Anas (RA) that he said:
“And he was white (abyad), his whiteness leaning to be tan (bayaduhu ilas-sumrah).” (Dala’il al-Nubuwah 1/204)
This is the scholarly way of handling an odd narration. Mark the difference- scholars do not agree with one narration based on an objective science comparing different narrations on the subject and then deciding on the merit whereas Wesley merely gives in to his subjective whims and desires and:
1- Fails to share all the various narrations from different Companions on the subject.
2- Twists hadiths with multiple tricks, like alluding to the idea of ‘addad’ or taking ‘abyad’ not to refer to complexion. Above details show he cannot consistently use either of these and usage of the word ‘abyad’ is itself enough to reject his ideas.
3- Rejects the hadiths which he is unable to twist without giving any proof for what he stands for.
Narration about the blackness of foot
Wesley plays foul and clever when he mentions that Tabaqat al-Kubra has pages dedicated to the description of physical appearance of the Holy Prophet –peace be upon him- but then fails to quote the most relevant of them. He dubs the most explicit narrations about the complexion of the Messenger of Allah –peace be upon him- as later invention of Persians without citing any proof. And what more, he quotes a narration to find some support for his theological beliefs. The narration as quoted by him goes as: “The Messenger of Allah (s) stretched his left foot, such that the blackness of its exposed part (zahiruha aswad) was visible.” (Kitab al-Tabaqat al-kabir, I/i,127) To expose the trick, let me just quote the same narration from Sunan Abu Dawud where it is narrated with the same chain of narrators but with a little detail. It goes as:
“When the Prophet, peace be upon him, sat during prayers (salaah), he stretched his left foot, such that blackness of foot was exposed.” (Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith 962, Makteba l-‘Asriyyah, Beirut)
Clearly this is about the left foot only and that too related to prayers (salaah) and we know when a person regularly offers prayers, on his left foot blackness appears due to frequent contact with the ground (Abu ‘Abdul Rahman al-‘Azimabadi in ‘Awn al-Ma’bud 3/170) And surely this it must had been even more for we know back then they used rough prayer mats or prayed on ground.
It is appropriate at this time to show a narration that puts Wesley in check on his black foot narration attempt. We are not using this narration to prove our point necessarily, as most people know that the armpits of a human being are usually lighter than the rest of his skin. We are just giving an example of how unscholarly Wesley can get and how he picks and chooses and can only see black out of all the ahadeeth that talk about the description of the prophet. It is important to note here that Bukhari (the most authentic book of ahadith) records it in the chapter entitled “Characteristics of the Prophet” hadith nr. 3372 narrated by Anas:
أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كان لا يرفع يديه في شيء من دعائه إلا في الاستسقاء فإنه كان يرفع يديه حتى يرى بياض إبطيه
Allah's Apostle did not use to raise his hands in his invocations except in the Istisqa (i.e. invoking Allah for the rain) in which he used to raise his hands so high that one could see the whiteness of his armpits(bayad ibtayh).
Mark the last words
“Whiteness of his armpits”
Exposing more lies
Besides his play with the ideas about meaning of ‘abyad’ and failing to quote most relevant narrations and stretching narrations out of context and things like that, here are some glaring examples of Wesley’s intellectual dishonesty:
What did Imam al-Dhahbi actually say?
Mr. Wesley wrote: According to the important Syrian hadith scholar and historian of Islam, Shāms al-Dīn Abū `Abd Allāh al-Dhahabī (d. 1348), in his Siyar a’lām al-nubalā’ [II:168]: “When Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad),’ they mean a golden brown complexion with a black appearance (al-hintī al-lawn bi-hilya sudā’). Like the complexion of the people of India, brown and black (asmar wa ādam), i.e. a clear, refined blackness (sawad al-takrūr).” Here he gives the impression that words ‘asmar wa adam’ and ‘sawd al-takrur’ etc. were also about Arabs. Before commenting on this, let us see what al-Dhahbi actually wrote:
“When Arabs say; So and so is ‘abyad’, they mean a wheatish complexion with slight darkness (hintiy al-lawn bi-hilyatin sawda). And if it is the complexion the People of India they say, ‘asmar’ and ‘adam’. And if it is of Toucouleur Negroes (sawad al-Takrur) they say ‘aswad’ and likewise everyone whose complexion is overwhelmingly black; they call, ‘aswad’ or ‘shadid-ul-udmah’.” (Siyar ‘Alam al-Nubula 1/39 & 3/448, Darul Hadith, Cairo 2006)
So evidently Imam al-Dhahbi has mentioned three different types of complexion. Wheatish, tan and finally overwhelmingly black, and he makes tan a reference to people of India and black a reference to people of certain African tribes. Mr. Wesley clearly lies and makes all of it look as if about the meaning of ‘abyad.’ Though Imam al-Dhahbi does mean that ‘abyad’ does not mean something like pure white but the flow of his statement maintains ‘abyad’ is whiter than tan, which in turn is tends to be whiter than black.
The quote from Lisan al-Arab
Mr. Wesley writes: Ibn Manzur [Lisan al-arab IV: 209, 210] notes: “The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abyad] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abyad] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish [al-zahir al-naqi min al-‘uqub]; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (ahmar)… when the Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad – bayad), they [only] mean a noble character (al-karam fi l-akhlaq), not skin color. It is when they say ‘so-and-so is red’ (ahmar – hamra’) that they mean white skin. And the Arabs attribute white skin to the slaves.” “Red (al-hamra’) refers to non-Arabs due to their fair complexion which predominates among them. And the Arabs used to say about the non-Arabs with whom white skin was characteristic, such as the Romans, Persians, and their neighbors: ‘They are red-skinned (al-hamra’)…” al-hamra’ means the Persians and Romans…And the Arabs attribute white skin to the slaves.” This is misleading.
The statement which Mr. Wesley translated as: “The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abyad] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abyad] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish [al-zahir al-naqi min al-‘uqub]; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (ahmar) It is actually what the author of Lisan al-‘Arab quotes from Shamir. And after this statement the author, Ibn Manzur, quotes Ibn Athir. Ibn Athir’s statement is hidden behind the three dots given by Mr. Wesley. Mr. Wesley put it as: … when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (ahmar)… when the Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad – bayad), they [only] mean a noble character (al-karam fi l-akhlaq), not skin color. The dots highlighted above hide much important text behind them. Ibn Manzur writes:
“Ibn Athir said: In this statement (of Shamir) is a problem for they do use ‘abyad’ for complexions of the people and other things.” (Lisan al-‘Arab 4/209 Dar al-Sadir, Beirut 1414 A.H.)
He then gives examples of such usages. This is about the usage of the word in general. Otherwise we have seen above in certain usages it will be insane to say that ‘abyad’ is not about complexion.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Name me an Arab tribe that is not called black in an early text. That is all I am asking.
All Arabs whether Qahtan/Peleg, Mustarab or the supposedly extinct ones like Amalik and Thamud.
Your question seems reasonable and not too difficult of a task.
Yes it would seem that way for sure. To make it even easier if they want I will even name all of the early major tribes of Arabia and let them pick and choose.
What arouses is that the people like, for example, Turks, Afghani do acknowledge what you stated. On many occasions I have heard Turkish folks refer to "African descent people" as Arab.
Yes Patrol, it is because all of the people coming out of Arabia up until the early Middle Ages were African looking people.
That is what an Iranian guy told me came to his country as well in the early periods.
Early Arabia was just an extension of Sudan for them and for people like Ibn Khaldun, Al Umari and Masudi. In fact it was the ORIGINAL SUDAN, as far as they were concerned, and the Nabataeans in Babylon for example were just called sons of Cush in the Akbar al Zaman which was penned some think by Masudi.
So I don't know what people are arguing about. That is just the way it was.
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All they have to do is name which one of the tribes of Qays, or Elias, Hawazin, Bakr bin Wail or Mudar (Adnan) that were not black if they are saying the Qahtan are not Arabs.
Even the tribe of Ubada bin Samit is completely "white" today. Does that mean Ubada and his tribe were not black like the early people stated. obviously we are supposed to think studying their mixed up with Circassian and Georgian women genes is more important.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Which equals black. Most Arabs were of course not this light, especially not the Quraysh. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Pulp: According to Arab color definition what complexion do these 2 Yemenis have? Are they blacker in skin tone then the individual below?
Sorry but the guy at the top is just a swarthy Syrian with some Arab blood - something the indigenous Arabs of Yemen most definitely weren't AND AREN'T.
He is what they called a "red man". If you put him in England for a few months he'd probably go back to his normal color. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: For example, we could start with the Baliyy who by early Muslim times had moved into Palestine and were described as fair at a relatively early period.
Then all we would have to do is look at which tribe they came from and how they were described elsewhere.
You see people aren't getting it. Just because their are fair-skinned Arab speakers who have moved into Iraq and Syria today doesn't mean the original ones didn't look African.
Just because Iranic Scythians traders came into the Yemen doesn't mean there were tribes of Scythians that came to be called "Arab".
I remember this page by some random Dutch person who visited the Sinai Bedouin.
He dedicated this vacation blog, and Called it: By "the Real Bedouin"
There are Arabs in Sinai a lot more Arab looking than these people in her blog. These are people who are mixed or look like the "mulattos" in my family. Arabs in Jordan and Palestine brought in many Circassian women.
But even these darker skinned Sinai Arab bedouin are mixed with something.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Pulp: So these guys are red and not black/dark but the yellow-brown American is black?
You are color blind - WEIRDO. Swarthy Syrians and black Americans with some admixture don't look the same. obviously the bedouins at the bottom are a lot closer to us. BTW - golden brown and burnt red over white are not the same. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Bushy eyebrows and STRAIGHT HAIR were not ARAB traits either. That came in with Eurasiatic Scythic people. Obviously cold-adapted, too. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Pulp: Well I can agree on that,that all 3 are mulattoes.
Actually NO. One only descends from Mulatto, Mestizo, Masala people. Most Americans of early colonial U.S. descent are of mixed strains to some extent - like it - or not. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Abyad means white
Word about the trickery of Mr. Wesley on this quotation follows towards the end of the article.
Meaning of ‘Abyad’ when used for people:
Mr. Wesley also tends to argue that Arabs use ‘abyad’ not to mean whiteness of complexion but the purity of one’s character. It might be used to mean purity of one’s character but to say that it is not used to mean whiteness of complexion is a mistake. This is evident from the very page of the classical work Lisan al-‘Arab from which Wesley quoted, but he failed to be honest enough to present the whole thing. Moreover, this can be said of some usage only, there are instances when the statements categorically relate ‘abyad’ to color/complexion. We shall see the details of Lisan al-‘Arab quote towards the end. And the examples forcing the understanding of ‘abyad’ relating to colour/complexion will fall within our scope of discussion.
Principle of ‘addad’
Coming to the idea of ‘addad’ (a word understood to imply the opposite of its first meaning) which Wesley brings forward, this might be the case in some rare instances. But if it’s with regard to colors in some contexts it does not mean ‘addad’ applies always. To suggest this is insanity. And again we shall see some usages that just do not allow any such sense of the word.
You are the insane one if you think I am going to let you sit here and troll away distorting facts again.
When “referring to skin, an Arabic speaker may use [abyad] (“white”) as a euphemism for [aswad] (“black”)” (Allam, J., 2000, p. 78). In another source we read, “Thus, the word meaning white can be used to describe the color of coal…” (Abdel-Malek, 2000, p. 302)
Are these Middleastern Scholars in Arabic also making wordplay - Neanderwannabe!?
YOU LOSE NEANDERWOMAN, AND THIS CASE IS CLOSED!
Allam, J. A Sociolinguistic study on the use of color terminology in Egyptian colloquial and classical Arabic” In Z. M.Ibrahim, S. T. Aydelott & N. Kassabgy (Eds.). Diversity in Language: Contrastive Studies in Arabic and English Theoretical and Applied Linguistics (pp. 77-92). Cairo and New York: The American University in Cairo Press.
Abdel Malek, (2000). A Sociolinguistic study on the use of color terminology in Egyptian colloquial and classical Arabic” In Z. M.Ibrahim, S. T. Aydelott & N. Kassabgy (Eds.). Diversity in Language: Contrastive Studies in Arabic and English Theoretical and Applied Linguistics (pp. 77-92). Cairo and New York: The American University in Cairo Press.
Everyone should copy and paste the above citations from true Arab scholars because a NEANDERDUMMY disguised as a LYING _SS SNAKE is on the loose on this FORUM! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sorry but the guy at the top is just a swarthy Syrian with some Arab blood - something the indigenous Arabs of Yemen most definitely weren't AND AREN'T.
He is what they called a "red man". If you put him in England for a few months he'd probably go back to his normal color.
Sorry but the guy at the top is just a swarthy Syrian with some Arab blood - something the indigenous Arabs of Yemen most definitely weren't AND AREN'T.
He is what they called a "red man". If you put him in England for a few months he'd probably go back to his normal color.
Why keep comparing people of various mixture and pretending that the Arabs didn't use the term white for blacks, Neanderdummy.
It doesn't matter btw how the word black is used in the modern U.S. we know how it is used by the Greeks, Romans and Turks and Persians who didn't consider themselves black, but said the Ethiopians, Syrians, Indi, Garamantes, Abyssinians, MOORS, ARABS, Numidians and people of Indonesia or Indo-CHINA WERE!
If things have changed then there is nothing even a Neanderdummy can do about it, can they.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Abyad means white
Word about the trickery of Mr. Wesley on this quotation follows towards the end of the article.
Meaning of ‘Abyad’ when used for people:
Mr. Wesley also tends to argue that Arabs use ‘abyad’ not to mean whiteness of complexion but the purity of one’s character. It might be used to mean purity of one’s character but to say that it is not used to mean whiteness of complexion is a mistake. This is evident from the very page of the classical work Lisan al-‘Arab from which Wesley quoted, but he failed to be honest enough to present the whole thing. Moreover, this can be said of some usage only, there are instances when the statements categorically relate ‘abyad’ to color/complexion. We shall see the details of Lisan al-‘Arab quote towards the end. And the examples forcing the understanding of ‘abyad’ relating to colour/complexion will fall within our scope of discussion.
Principle of ‘addad’
Coming to the idea of ‘addad’ (a word understood to imply the opposite of its first meaning) which Wesley brings forward, this might be the case in some rare instances. But if it’s with regard to colors in some contexts it does not mean ‘addad’ applies always. To suggest this is insanity. And again we shall see some usages that just do not allow any such sense of the word.
You are the insane one if you think I am going to let you sit here and troll away distorting facts again.
When “referring to skin, an Arabic speaker may use [abyad] (“white”) as a euphemism for [aswad] (“black”)” (Allam, J., 2000, p. 78). In another source we read, “Thus, the word meaning white can be used to describe the color of coal…” (Abdel-Malek, 2000, p. 302)
Are these Middleastern scholars of Arabic also making wordplay - Neanderwannabe!?
YOU LOSE NEANDERWOMAN, AND THIS CASE IS CLOSED!
Allam, J. A Sociolinguistic study on the use of color terminology in Egyptian colloquial and classical Arabic” In Z. M.Ibrahim, S. T. Aydelott & N. Kassabgy (Eds.). Diversity in Language: Contrastive Studies in Arabic and English Theoretical and Applied Linguistics (pp. 77-92). Cairo and New York: The American University in Cairo Press.
Abdel Malek, (2000). A Sociolinguistic study on the use of color terminology in Egyptian colloquial and classical Arabic” In Z. M.Ibrahim, S. T. Aydelott & N. Kassabgy (Eds.). Diversity in Language: Contrastive Studies in Arabic and English Theoretical and Applied Linguistics (pp. 77-92). Cairo and New York: The American University in Cairo Press.
Everyone should copy and paste the above citations from true scholars from the modern Arab world because a NEANDERDUMMY disguised as a LYING _SS SNAKE is on the loose on this FORUM! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It doesn't matter btw how the word black is used in the modern U.S. we know how it is used by the Greeks, Romans and Turks and Persians who didn't consider themselves black, but said the Ethiopians, Syrians, Romans, Indi, Garamantes, Abyssinians, MOORS, ARABS, Numidians and people of Indonesia or Indo-CHINA WERE!
Firewall, can you believe this? Exactly what Chancellor Willams was talking about
Listen to this screwball, Romans "didn't consider themselves black" but "said the ...Romans..were"
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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It doesn't matter btw how the word black is used in the modern U.S. we know how it is used by the Greeks, Romans and Turks and Persians who didn't consider themselves black, but said the Ethiopians, Syrians, Romans, Indi, Garamantes, Abyssinians, MOORS, ARABS, Numidians and people of Indonesia or Indo-CHINA WERE!
Firewall, can you believe this? Exactly what Chancellor Willams was talking about
Listen to this screwball, Romans "didn't consider themselves black" but "said the ...Romans..were"
Thanks NeanderDIMWIT lol! You caught my quite serious mistake, and besides you have confirmed to me that you are really the NEANDERDUMMY I thought you were. I removed that mistatement from the text.
The bulk of the Romans most certainly WERE NOT black, and never described themselves as such. But, if you weren't such a NEANDERDUMMY you would have kept your NEANDERDUMB mouth quiet and let it STAY THERE!
Keep up your dimwitted trolling - btw, enabling us to bring the facts out.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
folks, go back to be post about the word Abayad. It goes into depth about language usage also see links. It means white in Arbic, there is no dispute about that
What is being attempted is relgious motivated trickery, finding obscure 14th and 15th century and later language usages that are unusual and not applied to people and then using that to apply to people and to usage of centuries earlier. Don't mistake this stuff for afrocentricity.
You will hear dana spout off this carefully crafted language flipped propaganda you can hear the panic, the yelps, when she pulls out the insults
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pulp: [qb] Which complexion is can be described as lighter?
Modern Middleastern man OBVIOUSLY just below ARAB OF THE ARABS of the Bal Ubayd Masha'ai
Afar Ethiopian
Afar ETHIOPIAn
Now, Why can't Neanderdummies see the difference between these people. That is a more relevant question for the forum. Were Neanderthal's also colorblind?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It doesn't matter btw how the word black is used in the modern U.S. we know how it is used by the Greeks, Romans and Turks and Persians who didn't consider themselves black, but said the Ethiopians, Syrians, Romans, Indi, Garamantes, Abyssinians, MOORS, ARABS, Numidians and people of Indonesia or Indo-CHINA WERE!
Firewall, can you believe this? Exactly what Chancellor Willams was talking about
Listen to this screwball, Romans "didn't consider themselves black" but "said the ...Romans..were"
Yes i know. The other guy is not creditable enough to take history lessons from and he knows who he is,that's why it's best to go to the source. He at times do not know what he is talking about.
Dana looks good by the way,i did not know that was her picture.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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posted
I ignore what the other guy had to say,he not creditable. By way most AA are not mulatto,if i am reading that other reply right from the other poster.
I CAME BACK BECAUSE I FOUND SOMETHING THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MINDS,BUT OF COURSE IT WILL BE IGNORED. I will post below and leave if i come back it's to read lioness post.
Maybe dana or mike i might come back to read because there are fun at times or entertaining but i can't take too much of that,it's not good for my overall health. THE Djehuti UNIT I WILL IGNORE ON THIS ISSUE,BY THE WAY HE IS NOT FUN.
WAIT for my next post.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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posted
I saw his first reply by a mistake coming back to read lioness and dana etc..
HERE IS THE POINT.
QUOTE- But the white Jews (Hebrews) and white Arabs remain exactly what they always were--white; and this is why (and who pretends not to know It?)
That's my point.
Himyarite Kingdom WERE ARABS. Emir Mubarak ibn Saleh al-Duwaily Al-Awlaki
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Edited-
The early J AND EARLY J1 one speakers were black,that's true,but other later J1 speakers WERE NOT,JUST like the early I dna SPEAKERS were black and europe before whites came about but later I DNA FOLKS WERE NOT BLACK BUT WHITE EUROPEANS.
So whites inherited these early dna lineages like J,J1 and I and the dna mutated and theses later subclades FOR Haplogroup I-M170 AND LIKE SECOND J1 and later Mutations/SUBCLADES could be trace back to theses whites,simple. So EURO-ASIAN whites and blacks are both J1,IT'S JUST ABOUT FINDING OUT WHO J1 BELONGS TO WHO.
Early dna J1 and J could be still found in THE native population in arabia however,i do not if it's the same for early I.
Black never called themselves arabs. Nabataeans were not black the original folks were and you have mention there name above. Qahtan are not arabs.They were in arabia before arabs. Sabaean civilization was not arab,it was arabian but not arab,it's like saying ancient egypt was arab just because it's arab today. Dna does not lie,and arabs and hewbrews are cousins,and were original not black and were white invaders of these original black lands. Some of the native population became apart of the these invading arabs. Some of the blacks of arabia were some of the first to become arabized.
Dna does not lie,the dna proof is all over place and the info is above and i am clear now what going on then i was before so i disagree with your post,but you are entertaining sometimes.
Early J WAS NOT FOUND IN THE HORN,ONLY J1 subclade,and that' the later J1'S. Subclade J-P58 ARAB MARKER.
Early J WAS FOUND IN EGYPT ONLY
________________
ARABIC SPEAKERS AND CULTURE FOLKS ARE ARABS,MEANING THE NATIVE POPULATION WAS NOT ORIGINAL ARAB,BUT SOUTH ARABIANS.
Subclade J-P58 ARAB MARKER.
Muhammad WAS NOT BLACK.
Quraysh tribe
The Quraysh or Quraish (Arabic: قريش, Qurayڑ; other transliterations include "Quresh", "Qurrish", "Qurish", "Qirsh", "Qureshi", "Kuraish", "Koraish", "Koreish" and "Coreish") were a powerful merchant tribe that controlled Makkah and its Kaaba.
Muhammad was born into the Banu Hashim clan of the Quraysh tribe.
The tribe traces a genealogical history backwards from their eponymous ancestor Madher to Adam, Ibrahim and Ismail:
Quraysh is Nadhr ("son of") ibn Kinanah ibn Khuzaimah ibn Madrakah ibn Ilyas ( Elijah) ibn Madher ibn Nazar ibn Ma'ad ibn Adnan ibn Add ibn Send ibn Kedar (Arabic Qaydar) ibn Ishmael ibn Abraham ibn Azar (Terah) ibn Nahoor ibn Srooj ibn Ra'o ibn Phaleg ibn Aber ibn Shaleh ibn Arpheckshad ibn Sam ibn Noah ibn Lamek ibn Motoshaleh ibn Edres (Enoch) ibn Yared ibn Mehlaiel ibn Qenan ibn Anosh ibn Sheeth ibn Adam
Early history According to Arabic history books, the Quraysh tribe was a branch of the Banu Kinanah tribe, which descended from the Mudhar. For several generations they were spread about among other tribal groupings. About five generations before Muhammad the situation was changed by Qusai ibn Kilab. By war and diplomacy he assembled an alliance that delivered to him the keys of the Kaaba, an important pagan shrine which brought revenues to Mecca because of the multitude of pilgrims that it attracted. He then gathered his fellow tribesmen to settle at Mecca, where he enjoyed such adulation from his kin that they adjudged him their de facto king, a position that was enjoyed by no other descendant of his. Different responsibilities were apportioned between different clans. There were some rivalries among the clans, and these became especially pronounced during Muhammad's lifetime.
# ^ Al-Mubarakpuri, Safi-ur-Rahman (2002). The Sealed Nector (Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum). Darussalam. p. 30. ISBN 1591440718.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: everything falls apart
Yes, you fall apart again. As a fraud who is altering people's posts. How typical.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Firewall - I can't believe you posted that last link. lol! Are you for real. I think we all are aware that fair-skinned people are found in Yemen where they settled as Iranians, Turks, Syrians and other people who mixed with the settled inhabitants.
The Yemen is called ETHIOPIA by theancient classical writers and India Minor. LOOK IT UP!
BTW please don't go to eupedia to prove things they are the reason the history of the world is so messed up as it is.
Wikipedia is only slightly better that is why they prefer to post sculptures that were made OVER a thousand years after the Sabaean-Himyarite civilization started and when they have been already mixing with Iranian merchant folk.
BTW the crania and skeletons of the people as a whole in this time were the same as in the horn.
You didn't answer my question, FIrewall - nor did SON or Neanderdummy, aka LYING _SS. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Lioness here it comes, the knock out punch.
The Sabaeans and Himyarites of Yemen were not Arabs
Land of the Two Paradises, Ardh al-Jannatayn, is how the ancients described the capital of the Kingdom of Sheba in southwest the Arabian peninsula. The inhabitants built irrigation structures here as early as the 3rd millennium BC, but the great Marib dam, large sections of which are still visible today, was by far the largest and most impressive.
Stretching 650 meters long and 18 meters high, archeologists’ best guess is that the dam was constructed in the late 6th century BC. The rainwater collected behind the massive structure rose to where it could run off in channels to irrigate over 35 square miles of land on the left and right banks of the Wadi Adhana river bed – thus the name “The Two Paradises.” The inhabitants grew wheat, millet, barley, sorghum, grapes, date palms, vegetables, pulses, and fruits, the abundance of water allowing two crops per year.
The nearby walled town that served as the kingdom’s capital, known today as Marib, contained several thousand people, for the most part believed to be aristocratic families. The population of the entire oasis that lived off the fruits of the dam could have reached as high as 50,000 at its climax, unrivalled in size throughout the region. But sometime in the political and economic chaos of the late 6th century AD, the dam ruptured, never to be repaired. Marib’s once prosperous inhabitants disappeared, abandoning the land to nomads in search of pasture for their livestock.
Arab legend has it that the collapse of the Marib dam sparked a massive emigration from the area, what is today part of Yemen. These emigrants allegedly settled in great numbers in the north , eventually drifting with the Islamic conquest as far as northern Spain and China. But how much historical evidence exists of this mass exodus that has played such a vivid role in the collective imagination of the Arabs and plagued the politics of Islam’s early years.
Archeology in Yemen and the rest of the Arabian Peninsula is still in its infancy, based to a large extent on stone inscriptions found in various languages. Some 10,000 such inscriptions have helped piece together the history of the great incense kingdoms, the first and greatest of which, Saba (or Sheba in Hebrew), is believed to have originated by the early first millennium BC. This date is attested to by the Biblical and Quranic stories of the Queen of Saba’s visit to King Solomon in Jerusalem in the 10th century BC, though scholars continue to search for archeological evidence that such a visit ever took place.
The area held a near monopoly over the production of incense such as frankincense and myrrh, much in demand for ritualistic and traditional uses in the Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent regions far to the north. Enormous caravans made up of hundreds of camels plied the desert carrying this precious commodity, along with other goods brought to the ports of the South from India and Africa. The gold the caravans carried home with them made South very wealthy. Rival kingdoms rose up in the area to challenge Saba, but the trade continued profitably for South until well into the Christian era.
The Sabaean language and similar languages used in some of the rival kingdoms were, like Arabic, Semitic languages. But they were not Arabs, differing in distinctive ways, according to Christian Robin, Director of Ancient Semitic Studies at France’s National Center for Scientific Research in Paris. Though the Sabaeans and others in the region are referred to today as South Arabians in the geographical sense, Robin says they cannot be considered, nor did they consider themselves to be, Arabs, as this implies that they spoke Arabic, which they did not.
The true speakers of Arabic (or of its direct ancestor, proto-Arabic), notes Robert Hoyland, a former post-doctoral research fellow at the British Academy and author of Arabia and the Arabs, stretched from the southern fringe of the Fertile Crescent countries through the western coastal plain and central deserts of today’s Saudi Arabia. Their first mention in the historical record comes from an inscription by the Assyrian King Salmanassar III in 853 BC, following his victory over a coalition army of which a contingent of 1000 camels was commanded by one “Gindibu the Arab.” Nearly all early references to the Arabs spoke of desert nomads who “knew neither overseers nor officials and had not brought their tribute to any king.” But that did not stop the author of the above inscription, Assyrian King Sargon (721-705 BC) from contracting the Arab tribes to watch over his borderlands.
A similar process emerged to the south, but slightly later. The increasing use of Arabic words in inscriptions and the adoption of Arab gods indicate that Arabic-speaking nomadic tribes from central Arabia began arriving in South in small but steady numbers beginning around the 2nd century BC, picking up the pace in the 1st and 2nd century AD, according to Christian Robin. Masters at handling camels, the new arrivals were soon integrated into the armies of the Sabaeans and rival kingdoms who, as settled peoples, were less adroit with dromedaries.
Soon after the beginning of the Christian era, the incense trade suffered a series of ultimately fatal blows. Converts to the new religion still burned incense, but not in the great quantities used in earlier pagan rituals. Furthermore the Sabaeans’ trading partners to the north soon learned to navigate the hazardous Red Sea, and then learned to use the monsoon winds to sail directly to India, bypassing South entirely. The incense kingdoms in the South deteriorated and a new political power replaced them, that of Himyar, based in the cool, fertile highlands to the west.
The sway of the Himyarite kings stretched over most of South (to modern Oman) and northeast beyond Riyadh in central Arabia. This territory encompassed large numbers of Arab tribes, most of which were left in semi-autonomy to act as deputies of the Himyarites. Like their predecessors, the Himyarites used the nomadic Arabs as auxiliaries in their armies, Robin adds, particularly from the 3rd century AD onwards.
Despite the increasing presence of Arabs in the region, the remnants of the incense kingdoms in South were still not Arabs per se in that they still did not speak the Arabic language. But that was slowly changing. “Himyarite inscriptions were initially in the language of Qataban, a rival kingdom to Saba,” Robin points out. “In the first century AD, the writings turned to Sabaean, a very similar language. But in the early 4th century, the writings became very close to Arabic. This could be explained by an influx of Arab tribes into the region. Or it could simply indicate that spoken Himyari was already close to Arabic, and that the written word was converging with the spoken through the centuries.”
The vastness of the Himyarite empire could not hide the fact that South fortunes continued to wane. A steady decline in the surface area planted in date palms indicates an increasingly arid climate in South Arabia during the first centuries AD, a process that has continued until today. The drying up of the incense trade was another decisive factor. With the focus of power then on the highlands to the west, the irrigation systems of the former Sabaeans fell into disrepair. South Arabian inscriptions attest to a major rupture in the Marib dam in the mid 4th century AD, followed by another a century later. In 525 AD, Christian Abyssinia (Ethiopia) invaded from across the Red Sea and ended the Himyarite reign. A team led by Burkhard Vogt from the German Archeological Institute in Berlin recently uncovered an inscription at the dam site itself by King Abraha, the Abyssinian appointed regent over southwest.
“The stone inscription recorded significant repairs undertaken on the dam in 548 AD,” says Norbert Nebes, professor of Semitic Studies at the University of Jena in Germany. “But sometime during the next 60 years or so, it appears the dam ruptured a final time, never to be repaired.” The Quran tells us, less than a century after the event: But they [the people of Saba] turned away (from God) and we sent against them the flood (released) from the Dams, and we converted their two garden (rows) into “gardens” producing bitter fruit, and tamarisks, and some few (stunted) lote-trees. After centuries of relative stability, the inhabitants of the Marib oasis deserted their homes for greener pastures elsewhere.
The Quran continues: … At length we made them [the people of Saba] as a tale (that is told) and we dispersed them all in scattered fragments… But where did they go? Some undoubtedly took to the cooler, more hospitable highlands to the west. Did others set out north and east in large numbers to flood the rest of the Arabian Peninsula with their descendants? Archeologists agree that the evidence of a massive exodus from South Arabia, at least from the area around the dam alone, is unlikely on the scale now popularly imagined. “The dam complex in Marib irrigated about 25,000 acres of land at its greatest extent, and could have supported several tens of thousands of people,” Christian Robin explains. “But by the time the area was abandoned in the late 6th century, silting up around the dam and a drier climate had greatly diminished the area of irrigated land, with a consequent drop in the population. When the Abyssinian Abraha repaired the dam for the last time, he used stones from houses in Marib, a sure sign that they had already been abandoned, and that the oasis was in decline.” Even if all of the remaining inhabitants of Marib packed up and left in a day to settle the rest of Arabia, Robin maintains that “such small numbers were not sufficient to have much impact over a large area.”
Within a few decades, beginning around 630 AD, Islam exploded onto the scene as the predominant religion in the area. The migration of several thousand Sabaean Hymiarites (called Yemenis by then) to join the Muslim armies’ in their lightning victories is well documented by Muslim historians. After fighting in Syria and Iraq, many of these Yemenis and their families settled down in the newly conquered lands, lending their tribal names to more than one new town. “The Yemenis rallying to the Muslim armies may be a delayed reaction to the same economic and political forces that likely resulted in the collapse of the Marib dam a few decades before,” Norbert Nebes suggests. “In that sense they could *loosely* be said to represent the exodus cited by so many Arabs today.”
Rivalries soon emerged in the nascent and quickly expanding Islamic state, between the newly arrived Yemenis on the one hand, and the more northern Arabs with whom they came into contact on the other. Within a century, Islamic scholars formulated a more detailed genealogy of the Arabs, in which those tribes originating from Yemen and much of the Western coastal plain of Arabia were said to descend from Qahtan, while those further north were said to descend from Adnan.
The distinction between Northern and Southern Arabs was not wholly arbitrary, however. According to Robert Hoyland, in the two or three centuries leading up to Islamic times, those Arab tribes under Himyarite tutelage were called Southern Arabs, while those within the sphere of influence of the great Persian and Roman/Byzantine empires to the north were referred to as Northern Arabs. Yet the detail of Islamic scholars’ genealogy was unprecedented. Adnan descended from Ismail, they said, the father of all the Arabs, and the son of Abraham. Adnan sired Maad, who had a son called Nizar, both of whose names have been found in the archeological record as large tribes of central Arabia.
Qahtan, however, was a rather obscure Arab tribe known to archeologists for having made its capital for a time in the 1st century AD in the south central Arabian oasis of Qaryat al-Faw. Qahtan is believed to be a reference to the Biblical Joktan, great great grandson of Shem, the son of Noah.
The genealogy fits well because the Book of Genesis adds that Sheba (Saba) was descended from Joktan (Qahtan). Though the people of Saba, and later Himyar, did not speak Arabic and thus could not be called Arabs, they slowly welcomed Arab tribes into their midst, eventually adopting their language. It is this amalgam of Semitic but non Arabic speaking Sabaeans with Arab immigrants from nearby central Arabia that came to be referred to later as Southern Arabs, or Qahtanis. The genealogists themselves recognized that South Arabians and the surrounding Arabs had distinct origins, Hoyland notes. But by the coming of Islam the two had integrated to the point that they were seen as constituting a single social and cultural entity.
A similar process of integration has continued into more recent times between the Southern and Northern Arabs, to such an extent that many Arabs today are only vaguely aware of the distinction or its historical implications. This has been reinforced by the rise of Arab nationalism in the 19th and 20th centuries in reaction to colonialism, which has tended to downplay or deny differences between various Arab communities in the Middle East.
So while the story of the collapse of the Marib dam and the subsequent exodus throughout Arabia must be taken with a grain of salt from an archeological point of view, there is nevertheless substantial evidence that something along these lines did occur, though over a longer time period and involving many fewer people than popularly believed. But then that is the stuff of which legends are made of.
Actually no Mediterranean and Levant people are not blacker than me.
Regardless of how light you photoshop the picture.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
I put up an enlargement of the photo Troll Patrol put up so if there is any lightening Troll Patroll is the source. But clearly accoridng to the chart below also provided by Troll patrol you are a few shades less black than the man above, also fatter. Also the chart doesn't even go that iight, George Bush is darker
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I ignore what the other guy had to say,he not creditable. By way most AA are not mulatto,if i am reading that other reply right from the other poster.
I CAME BACK BECAUSE I FOUND SOMETHING THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MINDS,BUT OF COURSE IT WILL BE IGNORED. I will post below and leave if i come back it's to read lioness post.
Maybe dana or mike i might come back to read because there are fun at times or entertaining but i can't take too much of that,it's not good for my overall health. THE Djehuti UNIT I WILL IGNORE ON THIS ISSUE,BY THE WAY HE IS NOT FUN.
WAIT for my next post.
Speaking of credible:
"when you're doing academic research, you should be extremely cautious about using Wikipedia"
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
Under these suppositions, the Arabian Peninsula, as an obliged step between East Africa and South Asia, has gained crucial importance, and indeed several mtDNA studies have recently been published for this region [30-32]. However, it seems that the bulk of the Arab mtDNA lineages have northern Neolithic or more recent Asian or African origins.... [/QUOTE]--Khaled K Abu-Amero et al. (2008) Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula
quote: Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants
3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.
--Viktor Černý1 et al. (2009) Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
Actually no Mediterranean and Levant people are not blacker than me.
Regardless of how light you photoshop the picture.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
I put up an enlargement of the photo Troll Patrol put up so if there is any lightening Troll Patroll is the source. But clearly accoridng to the chart below also provided by Troll patrol you are a few shades less black than the man above, also fatter
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
As stated before, you're a liar and deceiver, good at altering people's posts. As you prove me right again!
The original response by me was about this entry:
“When Arabs say; So and so is ‘abyad’, they mean a wheatish complexion with slight darkness"
*wheatish*
adjective Indian
(of the complexion) of the pale golden colour of ripe wheat; light brown.
Picture spamming the forum is not going to save you.
Either case, you lose.
Located at the National Museum of Egypt, Cairo. 2nd floor. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Actually no Mediterranean and Levant people are not blacker than me.
Regardless of how light you photoshop the picture.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
I put up an enlargement of the photo Troll Patrol put up so if there is any lightening Troll Patroll is the source. But clearly accoridng to the chart below also provided by Troll patrol you are a few shades less black than the man above, also fatter
[/QUOTE]I am definitely about the same size Neander, though sometimes I wish I was more voluptuous. but not muscular like yourself, neander. And the guy above would fit nicely in any Sicilian or Syrian restaurant. unlike the ancient Arabs.
You will never be one of us Neanderwoman. Give it up.
On the other hand,looks like I am more your color - Neander. No?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: And the guy above would fit nicely in any Sicilian or Syrian restaurant. unlike the ancient Arabs.
all I know is if some of the these arabs were dark, he's closer to them than you are, be honest
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Firewall did you know this photo was the real lioness. I was surprised to find out myself.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I ignore what the other guy had to say,he not creditable. By way most AA are not mulatto,if i am reading that other reply right from the other poster.
I CAME BACK BECAUSE I FOUND SOMETHING THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MINDS,BUT OF COURSE IT WILL BE IGNORED. I will post below and leave if i come back it's to read lioness post.
Maybe dana or mike i might come back to read because there are fun at times or entertaining but i can't take too much of that,it's not good for my overall health. THE Djehuti UNIT I WILL IGNORE ON THIS ISSUE,BY THE WAY HE IS NOT FUN.
WAIT for my next post.
Speaking of credible:
"when you're doing academic research, you should be extremely cautious about using Wikipedia"
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
Under these suppositions, the Arabian Peninsula, as an obliged step between East Africa and South Asia, has gained crucial importance, and indeed several mtDNA studies have recently been published for this region [30-32]. However, it seems that the bulk of the Arab mtDNA lineages have northern Neolithic or more recent Asian or African origins....
--Khaled K Abu-Amero et al. (2008) Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula
quote: Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants
3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.
--Viktor Černý1 et al. (2009) Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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To make it even easier if they want I will even name all of the early major tribes of Arabia and let them pick and choose. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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